South Africa Lambasted in DIY Community...

[Rob Fisher]

Good point.

This is not a justification, just an exploration of the possible reason.

The difference comes in as to who the original belongs to. Wayne Walker is an individual that many people look up to.

A cloned atty is based on a creation from some company. We don't feel that direct bond with them, and let's be honest, many people have a damn the man attitude.

Fair point though. Would this not constitute cognitive dissonance?

Yes that is a reason... and I guess that's why I feel so passionate about the issue because I personally know and am friends with a few makers of devices and tanks that are directly affected by the cloners... and one of those is Rob from Reosmods... when they cloned the REO that was the beginning of the end for him and one of the reasons he semi retired and closed all his REO Forums and started concentrating on making guitars rather than REO's.

 

[Dietz]

I a

This issue is now getting massive attention globally - through DIYORDIE, if we don't act quickly, im afraid South Africa and its juice market will be labelled by all as shady. Almost exactly how we think of China as a pile of cloners. I believe our community is tight enough to weed out this problem quick sticks.

I agree, Wayne's Opinion is Globally recognized and that can mean that we will suffer when it comes to competing Globally due to this opinion that has been caused by a minority.
I have only seen Passion, Pride and Dedication with the Majority of the DIYers here, and to have all the hard work destroyed by a few is whats getting to me.
Its all nice that everyone feels so passionately about this issue, but suggestions would go further, Mine is that these crappycloners should be named and shamed, All vendors to only buy from reputable sources (this will be mos difficult) and we should do our part in trying to educate the average vape friends so that they know the difference or at least where NOT to buy.

 

[n0ugh7_zw]

i have no evidence or anything at all to back this up.... but i suspect this is going to be one of those cases, where when the culprit is found... hearts are going to be broken.

 

[William Vermaak]

I would also like to be on the list please. We need to do our part even if all we can do is boycott the copied juice to try and help the original creator to survive.


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[Pixstar]

i have no evidence or anything at all to back this up.... but i suspect this is going to be one of those cases, where when the culprit is found... hearts are going to be broken.

You mean it could even be our wives or significant others?

 

[n0ugh7_zw]

You mean it could even be our wives or significant others?

stranger things have happened

 

[BigGuy]

from a local mixers perspective please also don't forget that a lot of the local mixers juices also get cloned and then get sold by what the community calls "bathroom mixers" in store at least once a week we get asked by people how to clone popular brands. standard response is we do not advocate cloning of local brands and rather try coming up with new recipes.

the problem that local established mixers have is that lately there is a lot of cross overs between companies. ie: Nostalgia / emissary same profile juice being released.

I personally have had a crossover with @Paulie with the release of his pistachio ice cream i was working on one and so was he but he was further down the line with production of it so i re designed mine as to not clash with his. But honestly if we did not have dinner the one night when he was here in DBN where we both found out each other were doing the same juice we both would have released the same juice.

My 2 cents from a mixers perspective.

 

[Caveman]

Yes it's shady, but it's an unfortunate risk of putting your stuff in public domain. If Mercedes were to put their car schematics and tips online, for sure people would rip it off, change a few parts slightly and then claim its their original. It's terribly difficult to prove violation of an online licence and not worth the cost involved. It's also extremely difficult to even take action against someone to prove it. The vendor could simply say he arrived at the same profile through trial and error and it's easy to create notes detailing months of experiments, how to actually prove a timeline since seeing the recipe and launching a juice that rips it off is near impossible and unfortunately in this case, proving that you didn't rip it off is much easier than proving you did. There are no copyrights attached to a recipe so arriving at a similar flavor with much the same flavors and %s is not impossible and can probably be proven

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[Chukin'Vape]

The problem here specifically is that south african companie(s) are using online free recipe's and sell it under the makers name - where the maker Enyawreklaw (Wayne) has a sole rights of trade agreement with Mr Hardwicks (Joel) to resell his rescipe(s) in South Africa. So this is not recipe theft or anything - but is shady if you haven't confirmed with the maker that you can do this commercially. I'm really concerned about our Reputation globally.

 

[Caveman]

The problem here specifically is that south african companie(s) are using online free recipe's and sell it under the makers name - where the maker Enyawreklaw (Wayne) has a sole rights of trade agreement with Mr Hardwicks (Joel) to resell his rescipe(s) in South Africa. So this is not recipe theft or anything - but is shady if you haven't confirmed with the maker that you can do this commercially. I'm really concerned about our Reputation globally.

Ah I understand, I thought they were selling it under their own name. If they are selling it as DIY or DIE without permission it's a different legal issue, illegal use of a brand for example. So many variables though, also depends on the legality of the license itself, whether it will hold up as it is a free recipe, or if they are being bought by a third party and mixed up, in the event of it being pre-made concentrates. It's a very difficult issue, especially without the views on jy by the offending vendor(s). Also it's an issue of making the recipe itself by buying the ingredients vs premixing from a commercially available concentrate. Then it becomes a whole new issue, if there are reseller rights and agreements in place, third party companies should not be allowed to sell premixed to SA, assuming of course that is the case

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[Effjh]

I love the fact that everyone is up in arms about this issue and quite rightly so… and the issue was covered a few months back on Mr Hardwicks Radio Station. But I’m not sure how this is any different to cloning of hardware. Cloning, copying recipes… it is all stealing other people intellectual properties.

There is one difference, Wayne releases his recipe's for free, then someone takes that and charges for it. With hardware, the authentic's are often very expensive, then someone clones it and sells it for significantly less. Yes both are IP theft and both are wrong, but not a tit for tat comparison.

 

[Rob Fisher]

There is one difference, Wayne releases his recipe's for free, then someone takes that and charges for it. With hardware, the authentic's are often very expensive, then someone clones it and sells it for significantly less. Yes both are IP theft and both are wrong, but not a tit for tat comparison.

If you say so... personally I don't see any difference...

 

[Christos]

I don't see anyone crying about clone atties. Heck i make an effort to only buy from vendors who refuse to stock clones excluding me from 98% of our local vendors. Shout out specifically to @KieranD and @SAVapeGear. I know a few other vendors but those 2 prove my point.

Theft is theft bottom line.

I agree south Africans are shifty mother fluffers. If that statement offends you I suggest you are probably shifty AF.

 

[Chukin'Vape]

It's so important that we strive to support vendors who support the community - if nobody else is willing to spill the beans on this thread, I will do the research on Monday - and together we will run through a process of elimination, in order to figure out who these retailers are.... Who's in?

 

[Clouds4Days]

It's so important that we strive to support vendors who support the community - if nobody else is willing to spill the beans on this thread, I will do the research on Monday - and together we will run through a process of elimination, in order to figure out who these retailers are.... Who's in?

Hey bud , maybe if try contact Wayne and tell him that the community is upset im sure he will shed some light?

 

[Silver]

Thanks for sharing this @Chukin'Vape

Not a nice thing to hear or read about. I agree that this needs to be fleshed out further and better understood.

Please keep me informed either here or via PM and I will try my best to help where I can.

 

[Scouse45]

This is pretty hectic stuff. I've grown to really appreciate the retailers here and the people on this forum and getting into DIY myself due to help from members on this form and watching Wayne's videos. I generally agree with @Rob Fisher in saying clones r clones, being sold without the permission of the original creator bypassing all their innovation, hard work, trial and error and their pride. It's not always about the clone being cheaper it's about supporting our heroes, the people that create the products that keep us from smoking. A clone or a cloned recipe is the same thing, it's taking away from that original beauty. I am by no means having a go at anyone using a clone not at all. I am merely agreeing with wat rob said. The same reason I won't buy my Liverpool shirts from the man at the flea market. I appreciate the origins too much. And I agree @Chukin'Vape this is some serious kak and I'm with u!

 

[Akash]

This is seriously not cool. Atleast contact Wayne and get his permission before using his name to market stuff

 

[Effjh]

No one is cloning Wayne's juices.. they are free. He himself have made many cloned juices. Whole thing has nothing to do with juice cloning. Let's leave the hardware chatter in the hardware thread. before this thread turns into another off topic shitstorm.

 

[Scouse45]

No one is cloning Wayne's juices.. they are free. He himself have made many cloned juices. Whole thing has nothing to do with juice cloning. Let's leave the hardware chatter in the hardware thread. before this thread turns into another off topic shitstorm.

Ok bud some of us jus sharing our views did not mean to create an "off topic shitstorm" as u put it. I was merely responding to a comment made by members. But yes selling his recipes without his consent in whatever way u wanna look at, I believe is not acceptable. That's all I think.

 

[kev mac]

I don't want to say much about this other than i'm extremely disappointed - and I would like to get to the bottom of this.

Please just click on the video link, you will see it starts at 1:22:09 - and listen from there onwards.

If this is true he has a valid gripe. I follow this channel and have respect for him. I think he does good things for the vape and DIY community. I plan on commenting on this video that I am a proud member of ecigssa and not to judge all on a few bad apples and that my experience with the forum has been one of the best things in my vapeing journey.

 

[Effjh]

I know of only one supporting vendor that was guilty of this. It was sorted out months ago however so don't see any need to name them now. I think most of the guilty parties currently are off the forum vendors/people.

 

[DougP]

I'm am trying to not have a blonde moment here ....
I don't understand the fundementals of this
Help
Wayne creates a recipe which he posts online and "assumption 1 here - it's publicly available for people to use"
Now somebody here takes said recipe "assumption 2" and then mixes it and markets it as their own recipe and sells this commercially
So if Wayne created a cookie doughnut recipe then the company down here calls it coekie swirl as an example . If my assumption is correct then how does Wayne land up getting questions on quality and flavor profile
Or is this Company calling it Wayne's coekie doughnut which doesn't make sense because it is for free for anybody to view and use
Or am I totally on the wrong track here

 

[BumbleBee]

I'm am trying to not have a blonde moment here ....
I don't understand the fundementals of this
Help
Wayne creates a recipe which he posts online and "assumption 1 here - it's publicly available for people to use"
Now somebody here takes said recipe "assumption 2" and then mixes it and markets it as their own recipe and sells this commercially
So if Wayne created a cookie doughnut recipe then the company down here calls it coekie swirl as an example . If my assumption is correct then how does Wayne land up getting questions on quality and flavor profile
Or am I totally on the wrong track here

Yes, some people are taking his (and other's) recipes and selling it under their own label but there are those that sell it as Bronuts or Fried Ice Cream and even go as far as to say they they are ENYAREKLAW Mixes.

 

[method1]

From the DoD Website:

ALL RECIPES, RECIPE STYLES, AND FLAVOR NOTES ARE THE SOLE PROPERTY OF WALKER VAPOR GROUP LLC. THEY ARE NOT FOR COMMERCIAL USE BY ANY AGENT IN ANY STATE. PLEASE CONTACT WALKER VAPOR GROUP IF YOU'D LIKE TO USE ANY CONTENT.