# Medical Aid, etc.



## Natheer Mallick

So I'm in the process of adding a dependant and taking out one or two policies through Discovery, and one of the questions obviously is, do you smoke? I've been off cigarettes since the beginning of this year, but I do vape 6mg/12mg nicotine juice, so now I have no idea what box to tick. Anyone else been in this position? I know that smoking refers to analogues/tobacco products. I don't even like tobacco flavours lol. Thing is, I obviously don't want to get into trouble at a later stage. I plan on giving my advisor a call tomorrow morning, but I'm interested to get some input from you guys on the matter in the meantime...

Reactions: Like 2 | Can relate 1


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## Alex

According to my broker, they test for nicotine. If you can go without the nic for 30 days before the test you should be good.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## ShaneW

Yip, I enquired about ecigs and was told they test for nicotine.

Reactions: Like 1


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## annemarievdh

We are on Discovery. When Jaco added me on the scheme he phoned them and asked about that question as we vape, and they said it counts as smoking. 


Vaping with Thor the Reo Mini


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## BigGuy

Well something i can answer with absolute certainty i am an independent adviser which means i can sell any companies products. I have been vaping for almost 4 years now and this is something that i am busy working on in the life assurance industry currently.

So here is your answer. The life assurance industry relies on a test called a cotinine test this test tests for nicotine in your system. And based on the quantity you are either a smoker or a non smoker irrespective on how you get your nicotine into your system.

My argument is that modern medicine has not kept up with modern technology and have already inquired about alternative test with pathologists but have come up empty handed. 

I have had numerous discussion with life assurance chief medical officers and they have all given me the same answer which is: Until there is a test other than a cotinine test to prove how you get your nicotine then the smoker status will apply, however i have had one insurance company say that they are actively researching vaping and the pros and cons thereof and ill keep you up to date if anything happens.

So from an advisers perspective with 24 years in the industry PLEASE DECLARE yourself as a smoker the repercussions of you not doing so are not worth it. 

Regards

BIGGUY

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 2 | Informative 3


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## BigGuy

@Alex Hi Alex they can pic nicotine up in your system up to 6 months and be very careful about trying to quit for the reason of saving some money on your assurance the bulk of the insurance companies have clauses built into their terms and conditions that state that if you take up any hobby or habit that could be detrimental to your health eg Smoking or diving for example you have to inform your insurer or face repudiation of any claim arising from such hobby or habit.

Regards

BIGGUY

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1 | Informative 1


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## Alex

BigGuy said:


> @Alex Hi Alex they can pic nicotine up in your system up to 6 months and be very careful about trying to quit for the reason of saving some money on your assurance the bulk of the insurance companies have clauses built into their terms and conditions that state that if you take up any hobby or habit that could be detrimental to your health eg Smoking or diving for example you have to inform your insurer or face repudiation of any claim arising from such hobby or habit.
> 
> Regards
> 
> BIGGUY


http://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_...llow_up_i_few_days_ago_i_posted_about_a_life/

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Natheer Mallick

BigGuy said:


> Well something i can answer with absolute certainty i am an independent adviser which means i can sell any companies products. I have been vaping for almost 4 years now and this is something that i am busy working on in the life assurance industry currently.
> 
> So here is your answer. The life assurance industry relies on a test called a cotinine test this test tests for nicotine in your system. And based on the quantity you are either a smoker or a non smoker irrespective on how you get your nicotine into your system.
> 
> My argument is that modern medicine has not kept up with modern technology and have already inquired about alternative test with pathologists but have come up empty handed.
> 
> I have had numerous discussion with life assurance chief medical officers and they have all given me the same answer which is: Until there is a test other than a cotinine test to prove how you get your nicotine then the smoker status will apply, however i have had one insurance company say that they are actively researching vaping and the pros and cons thereof and ill keep you up to date if anything happens.
> 
> So from an advisers perspective with 24 years in the industry PLEASE DECLARE yourself as a smoker the repercussions of you not doing so are not worth it.
> 
> Regards
> 
> BIGGUY


Exactly what I needed to hear. Thanks a lot buddy

Reactions: Like 1


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## BigGuy

@Natheer Mallick Any time


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## Marzuq

annemarievdh said:


> We are on Discovery. When Jaco added me on the scheme he phoned them and asked about that question as we vape, and they said it counts as smoking.
> 
> 
> Vaping with Thor the Reo Mini


i recently called discovery as well to query this. seeing as i now vape i thought it might be classed differently but was told that it counts as smoking.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BhavZ

Sadly it is because they look at nic consumption and not the actual act of smoking.

sent from deep inside a vape cloud

Reactions: Agree 1


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## vaalboy

Interesting topic - thanks for the insight and feedback

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Riaz

Marzuq said:


> i recently called discovery as well to query this. seeing as i now vape i thought it might be classed differently but was told that it counts as smoking.


i can confirm this as well

we had the agents here the other day, and they also said that vaping counts as smoking


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## BhavZ

Riaz said:


> i can confirm this as well
> 
> we had the agents here the other day, and they also said that vaping counts as smoking


Just shows how backward their thinking is.

They at the very least class it separately with different criteria


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## BigGuy

The problem here is the nicotine test. My suggestion to them is for a client to sign a non smoker declaration and to once a year sign a non smoker declaration and in the event of a claim arising for what ever reason which they feel is related to smoking to then do a lung biopsy to test for tar. Oh and we all know that there is no tar in vaping. But alas they said that this was not ideal for them but i am still fighting the fight, sooner or later we will win the battle to be classified as non smokers and vaper's rather.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Natheer Mallick

BigGuy said:


> The problem here is the nicotine test. My suggestion to them is for a client to sign a non smoker declaration and to once a year sign a non smoker declaration and in the event of a claim arising for what ever reason which they feel is related to smoking to then do a lung biopsy to test for tar. Oh and we all know that there is no tar in vaping. But alas they said that this was not ideal for them but i am still fighting the fight, sooner or later we will win the battle to be classified as non smokers and vaper's rather.


Dude, thanks for fighting that battle on our behalf. We really appreciate it. I suppose with the vaping community growing at the steady rate that it is, eventually the demand for classifying it differently will be great enough for them to change it. Until then, my name is Natheer, and I'm still a smoker

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## CraftyZA

BigGuy said:


> ... sooner or later we will win the battle to be classified as non smokers and vaper's rather.



That is if they don't shut vaping down... or regulate the crap out of the industry.


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## BigGuy

@CraftyZA Yeah, but i think today with all the social media it makes it harder for the powers that be to try and hide stuff. We will win the war i have a strong feeling about this purely because there are far to many people that are sharing the positive aspects of vaping. We need to splatter tar filled lungs all over the FDA pages and smoking pages and websites and stand together as one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BigGuy

I might pee off a few people here but it is not my intention to do so.

Being in the life assurance industry i get statistics all the time, and as a non drinker (alcohol) i personally believe more people die every year from alcohol. Not necessarily from the consumption of the alcohol but by the person or people who drive drunk and kill innocent people. And they worry about second hand vapor being a problem but hey lets get drunk and be happy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Andre

BigGuy said:


> I might pee off a few people here but it is not my intention to do so.
> 
> Being in the life assurance industry i get statistics all the time, and as a non drinker (alcohol) i personally believe more people die every year from alcohol. Not necessarily from the consumption of the alcohol but by the person or people who drive drunk and kill innocent people. And they worry about second hand vapor being a problem but hey lets get drunk and be happy.


As primarily a wine drinker I totally agree, people must consume responsibly at all times. Then it is even healthy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ashTZA

BigGuy said:


> .... The life assurance industry relies on a test called a cotinine test this test tests for nicotine in your system. And based on the quantity you are either a smoker or a non smoker irrespective on how you get your nicotine into your system....




There is an alternative to Cotinine test:
Anabasine, an alkaloid, is present in tobacco but not in commercial nicotine replacement products.
If a sample tests positive for anabasine, then the person is still using tobacco products.

Its usually tested in the urine; (so probably not detectable after a few days); Not sure if blood tests can give a longer window period.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Arthster

@BigGuy, I am a PADI certified professional Diver (Divemaster) I am currently on Bankmed and on DAN, the reason being that medical aids see Diving as an extreme sport and do not cover any diving related emergency. DAN however will cover you even if you are in an accident on your way to a diving holiday. My question is though with Bankmed, I had no place to specify that I am a diver. Could this affect me if I need help from them for non diving emergencies?


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## BigGuy

@Arthster There should have been a spot that said do you do any hazardous activities. My suggestion would be to contact your insurer before you do anything.


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## Darth Vaper

Thought I would try and revive this thread to see if @BigGuy (or anyone else here) has heard if the classification has since changed?
Optimistic, I know. But hey, it is 2016...

Reactions: Like 1


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## OnePowerfulCorsa

Darth Vaper said:


> Thought I would try and revive this thread to see if @BigGuy (or anyone else here) has heard if the classification has since changed?
> Optimistic, I know. But hey, it is 2016...


This does not apply to medical aid. There is no penalty if you smoke / Vape / consume nicotine. This only affects Life Insurance and at the moment nothing has changed. 

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk


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## SAVaper

Good 2 know. Thanks


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## Warlock

Hi @BigGuy 

I’m confused here.

_( a French team found that combining nicotine with a cocktail of five other chemicals found in tobacco — anabasine, nornicotine, anatabine, cotinine and myosmine_)



So Nicotine AND Cotinine are found in tobacco. They are not the same thing. Cotinine is not present in nicotine. So if we are vaping pure(diluted) nicotine where will the cotinine come from?

Should we be afraid of the cotinine test?


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## RichJB

@Warlock, according to the Wiki page on cotinine:



> However, nicotine replacement therapies (i.e., gum, lozenge, patch, inhaler, and nasal spray) used to help tobacco users quit contain nicotine. Use of nicotine replacement therapy will result in a positive test for cotinine. Therefore, the presence of cotinine is not a conclusive indication of tobacco use.[19] Cotinine levels can be used in research to explore the vexed question of the amount of nicotine delivered to the user of e-cigarettes, where laboratory smoking machines have many problems replicating real-life conditions.[20]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotinine#cite_note-McNeill2015-20


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## Warlock

@RichJB

I now read that nicotine is metabolised into cotinine in one’s body....puts a spanner in the works for vapers ( and for the cotinine testers)


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## SmokeyJoe

Hi. I had to take out a life policy a few months ago, and they also tested for nic. I abstained from nic for 8 days and blood test was negative and put me down as a non smoker. Im a heavy vaper, 3-4 tanks a day on 3mg nic. So just go without nic for 8-9 days, drink LOTS of water and you will test negative. And yes, they test for cotinine, not nic. Nicotine is out of your system in 48 hours, but as the previous guys post, nic gets metabolized into cotinine and thats what they test against


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## Stosta

Also been in meetings with my financial adviser this week. He assured me that policies consider vaping in the same light as smoking due to the nicotine's effect on your capillaries or something. I argued with him about it for a while, but he eventually asked me if I would like him to set up a meeting with the decision makes so they could fob me off themselves. 

I told him no, and he must reduce my premiums...

He told me no, and to sign the papers you stingy bastard.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Duffie12

Stosta said:


> Also been in meetings with my financial adviser this week. He assured me that policies consider vaping in the same light as smoking due to the nicotine's effect on your capillaries or something. I argued with him about it for a while, but he eventually asked me if I would like him to set up a meeting with the decision makes so they could fob me off themselves.
> 
> I told him no, and he must reduce my premiums...
> 
> He told me no, and to sign the papers you stingy bastard.


For what it's worth he did the right thing. If he'd reduced your premiums with the result that a claim of yours gets rejected by the insurer he would have been at fault...

And that's something to keep in mind guys. You might show negative on your first test but you risk a claim being rejected if they find cotinine in you when you make a claim.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Stosta

Duffie12 said:


> For what it's worth he did the right thing. If he'd reduced your premiums with the result that a claim of yours gets rejected by the insurer he would have been at fault...
> 
> And that's something to keep in mind guys. You might show negative on your first test but you risk a claim being rejected if they find cotinine in you when you make a claim.


Yep! I'm used to doing what he tells me, because I honestly believe at the end of the day he has my back, even if it's just because its his ass on the line should things go pear-shaped


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## VapingSquid

I recently just had to get life insurance for bond purposes. I went through all the processes and was asked on the phone if I smoke. Just those words. To which I replied no (it's become a reflex action). Upon further inspection of the policy documents, they consider "Smoker" to be anyone who takes in any nicotine product. Be it a patch, vaping etc. I now have to pay R90 pm more on top of my premium...Institutions really need to get with the times here..

For what it's worth - I really wouldn't take a chance with these kinds of things. Be honest. If I drop dead and get tested that day, I will fail and the whole idea of life insurance is void...pretty scary!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OnePowerfulCorsa

SmokeyJoe said:


> Hi. I had to take out a life policy a few months ago, and they also tested for nic. I abstained from nic for 8 days and blood test was negative and put me down as a non smoker. Im a heavy vaper, 3-4 tanks a day on 3mg nic. So just go without nic for 8-9 days, drink LOTS of water and you will test negative. And yes, they test for cotinine, not nic. Nicotine is out of your system in 48 hours, but as the previous guys post, nic gets metabolized into cotinine and thats what they test against



A word of advice in the event of a claim if they can prove you do "smoke" aka consume nicotine your claim will be repudiated.


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## BigGuy

WARNING!!!!

Please declare that you are a vaper when taking out any form of life assuance even if you use 0mg nicotine as the terms and conditions of a life assurance policy quiet clearly state " Do you use cigarettes, Hubbly, Pipe, snuf or E- Ciggs" if you say no here and at claim stage they can proove you were a vaper they will repudiate your claim.

I am still fighting the fight with insurers and we are slowly winning the fight as most of South African re-assurers are based in the United Kingdom and with the National health there it will slowly funnel into the insurance companies and will eventually get to us in my opinion.

But please declare you vape on all applications.

Regards

BIG GUY

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 2 | Informative 1


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## Chukin'Vape

I totally get why a life insurance policy should know if you are a smoker, however clubbing all other nicotine usage under smoking is not fair. I wonder how much nicotine is allowed in your system before they consider you a "smoker". As we all know most of our veggies contain nicotine, so technically if you eat veggies you should also be considered a "smoker" - according to this logic.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/293186-list-of-foods-that-contain-nicotine/


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## NewOobY

mmm, very interesting topic. I wished I saw this earlier, I recently did the medical for life insurance. I claimed I wasn't a smoker. I already vape 0nic so I didnt have to stop vaping or something like that for the tests. 

However reading this thread - I think I need to tell them I vape and that they should mark me as a smoker. I mean the change in premium is so minimal. 

Thanks for all the info. Don't need to jeopardize my family to save a few Rands.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## boxerulez

NewOobY said:


> mmm, very interesting topic. I wished I saw this earlier, I recently did the medical for life insurance. I claimed I wasn't a smoker. I already vape 0nic so I didnt have to stop vaping or something like that for the tests.
> 
> However reading this thread - I think I need to tell them I vape and that they should mark me as a smoker. I mean the change in premium is so minimal.
> 
> Thanks for all the info. Don't need to jeopardize my family to save a few Rands.




Dude, wish I could say R90 is minimal.

Have been living off medical aid since i was 21.

10 Years going strong. Had to fork out once for a root canal and a few fillings...also went to the doctor 2 times for very bad bronchitis in that time.

We have a pretty good state hospital in East London, updated and fresh. Same doctors who service the private hospitals consult at Frere Hospital. I have confidence that they can offer the best service in East London. (I have not been here as a patient but quite a few of my people I am in contact with during day to day life has been around there for procedures, emergency ops, etc)

I cannot wait for our NHS to kick in and get these medical aid scavenger companies in gear to offer better services.

I see Discovery is already applying their exit strategy. (Increases for 2017)


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## NewOobY

apparently Discovery are increasing there rates significantly very soon. Sorry for the derail.


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## Lord Vetinari

NewOobY said:


> mmm, very interesting topic. I wished I saw this earlier, I recently did the medical for life insurance. I claimed I wasn't a smoker. I already vape 0nic so I didnt have to stop vaping or something like that for the tests.
> 
> However reading this thread - I think I need to tell them I vape and that they should mark me as a smoker. I mean the change in premium is so minimal.
> 
> Thanks for all the info. Don't need to jeopardize my family to save a few Rands.


Agreed diff in premium in not worth the fuss it's like having one less burger a month.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SAVaper

FogFace said:


> Agreed diff in premium in not worth the fuss it's like having one less burger a month.



Jip. I agree


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