# Will Vaping Be Banned?



## eVape (28/2/21)

I have been reading a lot of news items from different countries and it would seem that most seem to be coming after vaping in a huge way. Most are trying to ban it completely in their respective countries.

It does seem that they getting huge resistance with this and most seem to buckle under the negative press they seem to get on this standpoint. 

Then I suppose big tobacco has loads to loose on vaping so it would make sense they would lobby against something that will take cash out their own pockets.

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## Timwis (28/2/21)

Who have now waded in as well so let's hope there is enough countries like the UK who will stick their middle finger up and follow their own research based on the actual science and benefits as a much less harmful alternative to smoking!

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## Timwis (28/2/21)

Timwis said:


> Who have no waded in as well so let's hope there is enough countries like the UK who will stick their middle finger up and follow their own research based on the actual science and benefits as a much less harmful alternative to smoking!


It could be the battle of Britain all over with instead of spitfires, pod mods, we will never surrender!

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## ARYANTO (28/2/21)

We survived lockdown V.1 so underground we'll go again - stock up on vg , nic, pg, buy 2/3 durable mods to add to your current collection , are they going to lock me up if I vape in my car /house ? I give them the digitus medius manus

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## Munro31 (28/2/21)

Timwis said:


> It could be the battle of Britain all over with instead of spitfires, pod mods, we will never surrender!


Just imagine how Churchill would of vaped!!!! That man would of gone through mods like crazy!!!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 8


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## Timwis (28/2/21)

Munro31 said:


> Just imagine how Churchill would of vaped!!!! That man would of gone through mods like crazy!!!


300watts at least, a gallon of e-juice a day i would imagine! lol

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 8


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## Munro31 (28/2/21)

Timwis said:


> 300watts at least, a gallon of e-juice a day i would imagine! lol


Wahaha!!! He would of had a juice and battery runner!

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## Timwis (28/2/21)

ARYANTO said:


> We survived lockdown V.1 so underground we'll go again - stock up on vg , nic, pg, buy 2/3 durable mods to add to your current collection , are they going to lock me up if I vape in my car /house ? I give them the digitus medius manus


We are starting the plan of coming out of National lockdown number 3 and not because the death rate or infections are low simply because we have ran out of money!

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 6


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## Timwis (28/2/21)

Munro31 said:


> Wahaha!!! He would of had a juice and battery runner!


Imagine if the runner turned up with a Juul, firing squad i would imagine!!!!!

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## Munro31 (28/2/21)

O


Timwis said:


> Imagine if the runner turned up with a Juul, firing squad i would imagine!!!!!


Off with his head!

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## Timwis (28/2/21)

Munro31 said:


> O
> 
> Off with his head!


Lol i think we are going back a few centuries, anyway the French can be thanked for that bit of kit!

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Munro31 (28/2/21)

Timwis said:


> Lol i think we are going back a few centuries, anyway the French can be thanked for that bit of kit!

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## fbb1964 (1/3/21)

Timwis said:


> Who have now waded in as well so let's hope there is enough countries like the UK who will stick their middle finger up and follow their own research based on the actual science and benefits as a much less harmful alternative to smoking!


And NZ. Same as the UK. To a certain extend SA as well. Up to now they haven't mentioned an outright permanent vape ban just yet. The fight continues here in AU but its not looking good for now. Time will tell everybody is just stocking up big. But that's us vaping now what about future smokers not being able to quit smoking via vape? The only way we can fight this is to make it a political issue and get the politicians fighting amongst themselves. Divide and conquer just like they're doing. Covid lockdowns have clearly illustrated exactly what say the general public now have in govt. We're hovering on a full blown police state now. Public say and being heard in govt zero nada nothing!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (1/3/21)

Timwis said:


> Lol i think we are going back a few centuries, anyway the French can be thanked for that bit of kit!



The Brits too ... only they used an axe

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Intuthu Kagesi (1/3/21)

Timwis said:


> We are starting the plan of coming out of National lockdown number 3 and not because the death rate or infections are low simply because we have ran out of money!



SA didn't have any money before lockdown, and now we have less than nothing

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## fbb1964 (1/3/21)

S


Intuthu Kagesi said:


> SA didn't have any money before lockdown, and now we have less than nothing


Same here in AU. Things were just starting to pick up after the prolonged drought and then the huge bushfire seasons we experienced. The lockdowns have plunged us right back out of money. Massive debt!

Reactions: Like 3


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## Intuthu Kagesi (1/3/21)

fbb1964 said:


> S
> 
> Same here in AU. Things were just starting to pick up after the prolonged drought and then the huge bushfire seasons we experienced. The lockdowns have plunged us right back out of money. Massive debt!



I pressed "Like", as I like your post ... I can't however say that I like what has happened to Australia or for that matter any and all countries affected by Covid

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## CJB85 (1/3/21)

Munro31 said:


> Just imagine how Churchill would of vaped!!!! That man would of gone through mods like crazy!!!


He would have rocked a stacked 21700 Mech for sure!

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 4


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## Timwis (1/3/21)

Munro31 said:


>


I'm not denying it just pointing out we didn't invent the idea of decapitation we had much more sadistic torture methods which eventually led to death in the most painful way possible, then the wussie French came up with the more humane quick decapitation method, for girls really!

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Munro31 (1/3/21)

Timwis said:


> I'm not denying it just pointing out we didn't invent the idea of decapitation we had much more sadistic torture methods which eventually led to death in the most painful way possible, then the wussie French came up with the more humane quick decapitation method, for girls really!


Wahaha, butchery is what it is because of Britain!!!

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## DarthBranMuffin (1/3/21)

Timwis said:


> I'm not denying it just pointing out we didn't invent the idea of decapitation we had much more sadistic torture methods which eventually led to death in the most painful way possible, then the wussie French came up with the more humane quick decapitation method, for girls really!



Timwis... aka Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street...

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## Intuthu Kagesi (1/3/21)

I've come to the conclusion that @Stranger was correct re. derailment of forum threads, albeit that this time it's closer to a train wreck

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## Timwis (1/3/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I've come to the conclusion that @Stranger was correct re. derailment of forum threads, albeit that this time it's closer to a train wreck


Will vaping be banned to torture and execution methods, not much of a derailment really!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (1/3/21)



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## vicTor (2/3/21)

yes, vaping will be banned, so send me all your mods, juices and accessories for safe keeping

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## grouter (2/3/21)

https://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/new...-harmful-6a415e0a-148c-4e7a-a924-238a5dd1843e

I like the quote at the end of the article, which is the reason I'm linking it and also, I think, a reason why vaping is under threat:

_“I’ve observed that there are four groups of addicts in relation to the tobacco industry: the government is addicted to the taxes, the industry is addicted to profit, the smokers are addicted to nicotine and the *health-care professionals or experts are addicted to forming positions based on opinions rather than science.”*_

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## Stranger (2/3/21)

Sho, must be getting famous. I was not even here and I got the blame.

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Timwis (2/3/21)

Stranger said:


> Sho, must be getting famous. I was not even here and I got the blame.


You should have known that starting a thread called "Will Vaping Be Banned" would result in discussions about decapitation and torture methods, you really should of known better!

Reactions: Funny 7


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## eVape (2/3/21)

I am reading so much international news on the vaping situation latterly and they all seem to be taking the same view towards vaping. Firstly trying to ban it outright and then when public opinion is against that they introduce stricter laws. 

The way we see the laws just being applied here during lockdown with no real thought put into them it does make me worried. I really don't want to have to go back to smoking.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Timwis (2/3/21)

eVape said:


> I am reading so much international news on the vaping situation latterly and they all seem to be taking the same view towards vaping. Firstly trying to ban it outright and then when public opinion is against that they introduce stricter laws.
> 
> The way we see the laws just being applied here during lockdown with no real thought put into them it does make me worried. I really don't want to have to go back to smoking.


The best thing for those in countries where they are concerned vaping may be banned is stock up on devices and start to do DIY and rebuildables! Even during Prohibition in the states it was never law that people couldn't drink just a ban on Alcohol sales so home brewing became popular and those rich people with large fully stocked wine cellars were fine, in fact they estimate more alcohol was consumed during prohibition than at any other time! Vaping has got too big and has a legitimacy to be stopped, it will just go underground and will always have enough supporters in all walks of life my belief is it will come back stronger than ever!

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## Munro31 (2/3/21)

Timwis said:


> The best thing for those in countries where they are concerned vaping may be banned is stock up on devices and start to do DIY and rebuildables! Even during Prohibition in the states it was never law that people couldn't drink just a ban on Alcohol sales so home brewing became popular and those rich people with large fully stocked wine cellars were fine, in fact they estimate more alcohol was consumed during prohibition than at any other time! Vaping has got too big and has a legitimacy to be stopped, it will just go underground and will always have enough supporters in all walks of life my belief is it will come back stronger than ever!


I completely agree, in fact we will probably end up with more people vaping if it is banned than we have now

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## Intuthu Kagesi (2/3/21)

We've already had a preview of how it would play out should they go ahead with a ban ... think back to last year and the early days of the lockdown ... "n boer maak a plan"
I can't help wondering if our government learnt anything from it tho'?

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## Timwis (2/3/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> We've already had a preview of how it would play out should they go ahead with a ban ... think back to last year and the early days of the lockdown ... "n boer maak a plan"
> I can't help wondering if our government learnt anything from it tho'?


Difference is if i recall from what members were saying most things were hard to get hold of, if it was just a vaping specific ban and nothing to do with other restrictions caused by Covid then getting flavourings, PG, VG, nicotine and wire for coils would be much easier because all are items used for other things as well as vaping!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (2/3/21)

Timwis said:


> Difference is if i recall from what members were saying most things were hard to get hold of, if it was just a vaping specific ban and nothing to do with other restrictions caused by Covid then getting flavourings, PG, VG, nicotine and wire for coils would be much easier because all are items used for other things as well as vaping!



Correct  ... so all that is is required to close the loop is bootleg nicotine
Time to look into effective extraction methods, or ... a similar method to the way Australia does it, by importing nic from New Zealand.

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## Timwis (2/3/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Correct  ... so all that is is required to close the loop is bootleg nicotine
> Time to look into effective extraction methods, or ... a similar method to the way Australia does it, by importing nic from New Zealand.


Liquid nicotine is banned in the UK above 20mg and in quantities larger than 10ml as far as vaping is concerned but i still get pharma quality nicotine 72mg 1 litre no problem because liquid nicotine has various uses!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (2/3/21)

Timwis said:


> Liquid nicotine is banned in the UK above 20mg and in quantities larger than 10ml as far as vaping is concerned but i still get pharma quality nicotine 72mg 1 litre no problem because liquid nicotine has various uses!



That's interesting ... It's time to start cozying up to my family members involved in the medical fraternity then

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## YeOldeOke (3/3/21)

Timwis said:


> We are starting the plan of coming out of National lockdown number 3 and not because the death rate or infections are low simply because we have ran out of money!


Here's a point to ponder - if the ave covid death age is 80+, how can the rate ever come down? Covid, like any virus, is here to stay. Old age is here to stay, and for some inexplicable reason old people tend to die, always have and always will.

Human stupidity, infinity and all that jazz.

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## Timwis (3/3/21)

YeOldeOke said:


> Here's a point to ponder - if the ave covid death age is 80+, how can the rate ever come down? Covid, like any virus, is here to stay. Old age is here to stay, and for some inexplicable reason old people tend to die, always have and always will.
> 
> Human stupidity, infinity and all that jazz.


Problem is the average age was never any where near 80 just that 80+ did make up a large percentage and for obvious reasons are more vulnerable along with those with underlying conditions. But as time has gone by and the virus has mutated the average age is getting lower and lower we hear of many deaths every day in the UK of fit healthy people in there prime and even more cruel even children although thank god less often!

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## YeOldeOke (3/3/21)

Timwis said:


> Problem is the average age was never any where near 80 just that 80+ did make up a large percentage and for obvious reasons are more vulnerable along with those with underlying conditions. But as time has gone by and the virus has mutated the average age is getting lower and lower we hear of many deaths every day in the UK of fit healthy people in there prime and even more cruel even children although thank god less often!



That is a statement that I haven't seen in facts. And logically it also doesn't make sense. I have lost interest in this covid mania so doubt I will even try to verify it.

'tis late, fun conspiracy theory time. 
It has long been a problem that the population is aging, Japan is a prime example but it's a worldwide trend that has long caught the attention of the social engineering types in Davos and other pits o'hell. Too many old people to be supported by the young causing economic stress. Large migrations of younger people into developed countries is but one of the solutions. Why would killing off the old not also help.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

YeOldeOke said:


> That is a statement that I haven't seen in facts. And logically it also doesn't make sense. I have lost interest in this covid mania so doubt I will even try to verify it.
> 
> 'tis late, fun conspiracy theory time.
> It has long been a problem that the population is aging, Japan is a prime example but it's a worldwide trend that has long caught the attention of the social engineering types in Davos and other pits o'hell. Too many old people to be supported by the young causing economic stress. Large migrations of younger people into developed countries is but one of the solutions. Why would killing off the old not also help.



It's is a seemingly callous statement, however to continue the train of thought; The world is apparently overpopulated at present, and as nature has a way of looking after problems, called homeostasis, maybe this wasn't some mad Chinese scientist playing God, but rather nature taking care of business?

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Timwis said:


> Problem is the average age was never any where near 80 just that 80+ did make up a large percentage and for obvious reasons are more vulnerable along with those with underlying conditions. But as time has gone by and the virus has mutated the average age is getting lower and lower we hear of many deaths every day in the UK of fit healthy people in there prime and even more cruel even children although thank god less often!



You are correct, the world average for human life expectance was 72.6 years, (in 2017), however fast approaching 80 as can be seen below;

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## Stranger (3/3/21)

Yes but the age of still being productive to society has also gone up, .... just look at Trump and Biden and of course Zuma

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## fbb1964 (3/3/21)

Interesting opinions from the dude himself..

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Stranger said:


> Yes but the age of still being productive to society has also gone up, .... just look at Trump and Biden and of course Zuma


I agree with your point, however that's a terrible example, as those three idiots are friggen useless, (and it's not age related!)

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## Stranger (3/3/21)

Sarcasm is my strong point, other examples are my FIL who worked fitting skylights until he was 72. I have clients that are 75 + and even 80 and still go to work every day.

A recent stat is that guys who retire @ 60 then go onto start sideline businesses the mortality rate improves for these people. Guys who retire at 65 or older the mortality rate declines. You yourself sent me a small challenge, somewhere along the lines of " let's start an SA mod building industry"

I agree, we are at the tipping point for food production and climate change and more importantly consumerism, however this is what drives a capitalist economy, so until the oil and gas runs out we are stuck with it. 

Bring on a global benevolent dictator ..... whoop whoop

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Stranger said:


> Sarcasm is my strong point, other examples are my FIL who worked fitting skylights until he was 72. I have clients that are 75 + and even 80 and still go to work every day.
> 
> A recent stat is that guys who retire @ 60 then go onto start sideline businesses the mortality rate improves for these people. Guys who retire at 65 or older the mortality rate declines. You yourself sent me a small challenge, somewhere along the lines of " let's start an SA mod building industry"
> 
> ...



Thank G_d for your admittal on sarcasm, admittedly I had begun to question your sanity  ... I should have guessed you were yanking chains once again 

I agree wholeheartedly on the work or die theory ... I have parents in their late 80's that still practice medicine  , this after attempting to retire some 65536 times since they turned 60 something, so the die is cast, and I seem to be following fairly closely, making that challenge re. a manufacturing concern real ... Hell, we may as well stimulate our gray matter and have some fun whilst we witness the world expend the last of it's resources, whilst witnessing some pseudo benevolent dictator(s), (_aren't all politicians_?), attempt to correct the screw-up, and making it far worse.

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## Stranger (3/3/21)

You and I must get together some time ......... with a cup of tea ..... black.... with honey

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Stranger said:


> You and I must get together some time ......... with a cup of tea ..... black.... with honey


I'd love it, only that tea needs to be bran-tea, spelt Cognaq  , without honey

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## Stranger (3/3/21)

I will check with Blck vapour see if they have those.

On the subject of vaping being banned, I have a suspicion that somewhere down the line, soon, we will come under fire. We know the C ANC er love to copy and paste anywhere they see an opportunity for wealth creation. We must be on guard because when it comes, it will be a slap in the face.

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## CashKat88 (3/3/21)

It's so transparent that vaping has a big effect on the pockets of these big wigs otherwise they wouldn't care about our health, if they really that concerned about our health they would be banning ciggies, so much of a fuss for nothing, if they released an indemnity form saying "Yes, we are aware of the effects vaping could have on our health" then I would sign it and be on my way but this is not about health it's about money and its pretty disgusting when you think about it.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Stranger said:


> I will check with Blck vapour see if they have those.
> 
> On the subject of vaping being banned, I have a suspicion that somewhere down the line, soon, we will come under fire. We know the C ANC er love to copy and paste anywhere they see an opportunity for wealth creation. We must be on guard because when it comes, it will be a slap in the face.



I agree, those baskets are incorrigible, and I'm all for some contingency planning

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## Timwis (3/3/21)

YeOldeOke said:


> That is a statement that I haven't seen in facts. And logically it also doesn't make sense



So your saying i am making this up? In fact due to shielding in this second wave and now the roll out of vaccines most UK deaths now are th


Stranger said:


> Sarcasm is my strong point, other examples are my FIL who worked fitting skylights until he was 72. I have clients that are 75 + and even 80 and still go to work every day.
> 
> A recent stat is that guys who retire @ 60 then go onto start sideline businesses the mortality rate improves for these people. Guys who retire at 65 or older the mortality rate declines. You yourself sent me a small challenge, somewhere along the lines of " let's start an SA mod building industry"
> 
> ...


Would be nothing wrong with a capitalist economy if it didn't go side by side with trickle down wealth distribution! people with more money than they need while some struggle to put food on the table is morally corrupt!

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## Munro31 (3/3/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> You are correct, the world average for human life expectance was 72.6 years, (in 2017), however fast approaching 80 as can be seen below;
> View attachment 223955


In a few years we will be old as Bible people again

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Timwis said:


> So your saying i am making this up? In fact due to shielding in this second wave and now the roll out of vaccines most UK deaths now are th
> 
> Would be nothing wrong with a capitalist economy if it didn't go side by side with trickle down wealth distribution! people with more money than they need while some struggle to put food on the table is morally corrupt!



OK ... So are you saying that socialism is the answer then?

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Munro31 said:


> In a few years we will be old as Bible people again



There a few drawbacks to getting older, and I'm not sure that I want to repeat Methuselah's 969 years ... Good Lord, (pun intended), at 60 I make sound effects bending over, can you imagine what it'd be like at 600, let alone 969  ... another of them age related issues is the reliance of glasses, which I find a bloody nuisance when doing any closeup work, to which my son tells me that it's purposeful that your eyesight deteriorates with age,, so that you don't notice how gross looking your spouse has become

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## Timwis (3/3/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> OK ... So are you saying that socialism is the answer then?


No liberal democrat so believe in a capitalism but with a fairer distribution of wealth! This pandemic showed the unfairness when it works out most that are essential are on minimum wages while those on higher wages in the UK have been getting paid by the government for being on a jolly!

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## Timwis (3/3/21)

Timwis said:


> No liberal democrat so believe in a capitalism but with a fairer distribution of wealth! This pandemic showed the unfairness when it works out most that are essential are on minimum wages while those on higher wages in the UK have been getting paid by the government for being on a jolly!


And when it's all over it will be the less well off that pays the debt for keeping the wealthy in their pretend jobs!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Timwis said:


> No liberal democrat so believe in a capitalism but with a fairer distribution of wealth! This pandemic showed the unfairness when it works out most that are essential are on minimum wages while those on higher wages in the UK have been getting paid by the government for being on a jolly!



I agree that there is unfairness of wage in certain areas, especially government, (and most especially in South Africa), however this doesn't get resolved through wealth distribution, rather it is resolved by cutting the legs off the guilty, (dishonest), parties. 
Hell, If I build up a company and wish to pay myself a Kings ransom, why the hell shouldn't I ... I worked for it dammit!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Timwis said:


> And when it's all over it will be the less well off that pays the debt for keeping the wealthy in their pretend jobs!


I think you need to be specific about who these wealthy parties are that you referring to ... are they public servants or are they self made entrepreneurs that have built empires on their own blood sweat and tears?

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## Timwis (3/3/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I think you need to be specific about who these wealthy parties are that you referring to ... are they public servants or are they self made entrepreneurs that have built empires on their own blood sweat and tears?


Most British entrepreneurs build their empires on the backs of others blood sweat and tears and pay them peanuts in return and then look how they can stash their wealth to avoid tax while those very same low paid workers foot the bill! Don't get me wrong i believe that you have to have a pay scale and some people should earn more than others etc but when 90% of the wealth goes to the top 10% and you have people not paid a realistic living wage there is something seriously wrong!

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## Timwis (3/3/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Hell, If I build up a company and wish to pay myself a Kings ransom, why the hell shouldn't I ... I worked for it dammit!



But if that was whilst paying others the least amount possible and being blind to the fact they are also working their butts off to allow that Kings ransom, then i find that morally wrong!

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## Munro31 (3/3/21)

If you take the money from the wealthy and redistribute it, within a few years everyone will be back to where they started before redistribution.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Timwis said:


> Most British entrepreneurs build their empires on the backs of others blood sweat and tears and pay them peanuts in return and then look how they can stash their wealth to avoid tax while those very same low paid workers foot the bill! Don't get me wrong i believe that you have to have a pay scale and some people should earn more than others etc but when 90% of the wealth goes to the top 10% and you have people not paid a realistic living wage there is something seriously wrong!



OK that puts it into better perspective ...

Interestingly enough, that's one of secrets of true success ... build a legacy that your family can leverage off, as apposed blowing all your money and leaving your kids to fend for themselves ... and you're saying that's wrong?

So basically your advocation is that you shouldn't make sacrifices to build a better life for your descendants ... that you should rather live the life of Riley and blow it all, and tell your kids to get stuffed, and create another hand to mouth struggling generation ... this is where I disagree with you strongly, as your advocation has it's roots in socialism.

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## Timwis (3/3/21)

Munro31 said:


> If you take the money from the wealthy and redistribute it, within a few years everyone will be back to where they started before redistribution.


It's not about taking all the money from the wealthy at all it's about the extremes either end but in the UK whenever in the past there as been suggestion of taxing the rich more or caps which will allow for raised minimum wages etc they just threaten to leave the country because it will slow down the 0's adding to their bank balances, greedy morally empty b***ards!

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## Timwis (3/3/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> OK that puts it into better perspective ...
> 
> Interestingly enough, that's one of secrets of true success ... build a legacy that your family can leverage off, as apposed blowing all your money and leaving your kids to fend for themselves ... and you're saying that's wrong?
> 
> So basically your advocation is that you shouldn't make sacrifices to build a better life for your descendants ... that you should rather live the life of Riley and blow it all, and tell your kids to get stuffed, and create another hand to mouth struggling generation ... this is where I disagree with you strongly, as your advocation has it's roots in socialism.


I didn't say any of that at all, sounds defensive? how would paying others a decent wage be living the life of Riley, that attitude is very disturbing!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Timwis said:


> I didn't say any of that at all, sounds defensive? how would paying others a decent wage be living the wife of Riley, that attitude is very disturbing!



I am being defensive because I understand you to be saying that you want to penalise people whose families have made sacrifices in the past, to build empires that they now leverage off? ... or have I missed your point, and or you failed to elucidate yours?

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## Timwis (3/3/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I am being defensive because I understand you to be saying that you want to penalise people whose families have made sacrifices in the past, to build empires that they now leverage off? ... or have I missed your point, and or you failed to elucidate yours?


I am not against wealth just the extremes and those in return that pay low wages that show how they value them who keep their companies going.

I am not a socialist at all but unless the extremes of capitalism are addressed then capitalism will fail! My point is 90% of wealth going to 10% of people is wrong!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Timwis said:


> I am not against wealth just the extremes and those in return that pay low wages that show how they value them who keep their companies going.
> 
> I am not a socialist at all but unless the extremes of capitalism are addressed then capitalism will fail! My point is 90% of wealth going to 10% of people is wrong!



We'll have to agree to disagree here, as all that I'm reading is that you're unhappy that your family didn't make the necessary sacrifices to place you into the top 10 percentile you speak of, and if you were there, you'd be fighting to retain it, not share it.

I'll bet that most forum members here would fight to retain their family wealth, whether it be inherited, self made or both, and the fairness of it as an argument is mute, as their families made sacrifices, and built their empires, whilst others families didn't, for whatever reasons.

Should your argument extend, (_as I thought it did in your earlier posts_), to say civil servants who were raking in the bucks whilst telling everyone else to take a knock, (as the SA Govt. did during Covid), then I would with absolute certainty agree with you.

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## Timwis (3/3/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree here, as all that I'm reading is that you're unhappy that your family didn't make the necessary sacrifices to place you into the top 10 percentile you speak of, and if you were there, you'd be fighting to retain it, not share it.
> 
> I'll bet that most forum members here would fight to retain their family wealth, whether it be inherited, self made or both, and the fairness of it as an argument is mute, as their families made sacrifices, and built their empires, whilst others families didn't, for whatever reasons.
> 
> Should your argument extend, (_as I thought it did in your earlier posts_), to say civil servants who were raking in the bucks whilst telling everyone else to take a knock, (as the SA Govt. did during Covid), then I would with absolute certainty agree with you.


I am against CEO's of companies racking in fortunes but if the shit hits the fan the buck is passed and the worst that happens to those that were paid a fortune for taking responsibility is a big pay off whether that may be in the private sector or public! It only moved on to families building empires they pass on etc because you did nothing but go on about it, i didn't even mention it only in regard once it was brought up i find it wrong if those making loads of money do so while paying others low wages and then i find them morally empty! I don't care a crap about being left money or not why can't i have a view based on fairness and nothing to do with my circumstances! I have every respect for those that have been successful but those that were handed what they have they would have to earn my respect in other ways because most i know go around looking down on other people when everything they have were handed to them so no actually i would of hated to be left a fortune and i am happy with my lot but feel guilty when i see a homeless person yet those better off just look at them in disgust as if they are not human beings!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Timwis said:


> I am against CEO's of companies racking in fortunes but if the shit hits the fan the buck is passed and the worst that happens to those that were paid a fortune for taking responsibility is a big pay off whether that may be in the private sector or public! It only moved on to families building empires they pass on etc because you did nothing but go on about it, i didn't even mention it only in regard once it was brought up i find it wrong if those making loads of money do so while paying others low wages and then i find them morally empty! I don't care a crap about being left money or not why can't i have a view based on fairness and nothing to do with my circumstances! I have every respect for those that have been successful but those that were handed what they have they would have to earn my respect in other ways because most i know go around looking down on other people when everything they have were handed to them so no actually i would of hated to be left a fortune and i am happy with my lot but feel guilty when i see a homeless person yet those better off just look at them in disgust as if they are not human beings!



OK ... different argument, and having worked in Corporates in senior roles, can safely say that the problem is not the executives, but rather the shareholders, (aka. The Public / You), who demand returns that border insane more often than not, making their objective to get as much as possible for as little as possible ... this to ensure the shareholder return remains high enough to retain their investment ... so who's really to blame here?

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## Timwis (3/3/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> OK ... different argument, and having worked in Corporates in senior roles, can safely say that the problem is not the executives, but rather the shareholders, (aka. The Public / You), who demand returns that border insane more often than not, making their objective to get as much as possible for as little as possible ... this to ensure the shareholder return remains high enough to retain their investment ... so who's really to blame here?


Have a holiday, hardly my fault i have never owned shares and you just proved my point, such positions would justify their pay for the responsibility yet you wouldn't take responsibility it's the shareholders fault lol!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (3/3/21)

Timwis said:


> Have a holiday, hardly my fault i have never owned shares and you just proved my point, such positions would justify their pay for the responsibility yet you wouldn't take responsibility it's the shareholders fault lol!



That's not what I said at all Tim

What I did say is that a root cause analysis of YOUR stated problem, is the very people who demand the returns, namely the public / YOU

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## Timwis (3/3/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> That's not what I said at all Tim
> 
> What I did say is that a root cause analysis of YOUR stated problem, is the very people who demand the returns, namely the public / YOU


But they happily take the money for that responsibility but then don't take responsibility if things go wrong or get a big handout as they stand down many more times what many earn in their lives which is hardly how their employees would be treated, and don't get me started on bankers! May be the make up of the UK and SA economies are different, it always seems in the UK if the Sh*t hits the fan the man at the top who is paid for the responsibility instead just finds some poor scapegoat, yet all the time previous would justify their huge salary because they carry that responsibility which when tested turns out to be BS!

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## fbb1964 (4/3/21)

Interesting chat dudes.. I believe the silver bullet correct term your looking for is "crony capitalism" ?
In very simple terms big govt and big corporations are now one and the same thing! And it certainly pertains to vaping being banned or not. Time will tell in the long run.



Let's not even get started on the word "democracy" When was the last time a really important issue affecting us all in public was done via a referendum? Or at best a public debate or some form of discussion? The UK had brexit but that's about it. Nothing zero zilch else. Going to war or not, everything around covid lockdowns and restrictions, the "carbon tax" green deal renewable energy and many more important public issues etc. We as the public had absolutely NO say. Putting it bluntly we live in a socialist world now. Splitting hairs about the minute small details doesn't matter one bit? Peace, prosperity and stock up on the vape stuff! Especially nicotine..

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## YeOldeOke (4/3/21)

Timwis said:


> So your saying i am making this up? In fact due to shielding in this second wave and now the roll out of vaccines most UK deaths now are th



I'm saying I don't have the time nor patience to endlessly argue the same circular arguments over and over again, ad infinitum, forever, like a bottomless pit filled with vipers, with fearful people peering at me over their stupid little useless masks. After 18 months of following this epic farce closely all I can do is shrug and walk away, and be thankful I will die soon.

Idiocracy comes to mind.

I'll try not to step on any of the billions of deadish bodies littering the streets as I make my exit from this 'discussion'.

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## vicTor (4/3/21)



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## Munro31 (4/3/21)

vicTor said:


> View attachment 224045


What did you say????

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## alex1501 (4/3/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> can you imagine what it'd be like at 600, let alone 969

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## Intuthu Kagesi (4/3/21)

Timwis said:


> But they happily take the money for that responsibility but then don't take responsibility if things go wrong or get a big handout as they stand down many more times what many earn in their lives which is hardly how their employees would be treated, and don't get me started on bankers! May be the make up of the UK and SA economies are different, it always seems in the UK if the Sh*t hits the fan the man at the top who is paid for the responsibility instead just finds some poor scapegoat, yet all the time previous would justify their huge salary because they carry that responsibility which when tested turns out to be BS!



I can't comment on British business, as my knowledge on same is very limited, save to say the following;

In law, arguments are reduced to definition to better qualify intention, (in the UK and SA), so lets do that with the word you're banding about rather freely ... "responsibility"

I'm well aware that some mothers and teachers use it to assign blame, with the statement; "WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS!"; however, responsibility is a noun that defines *"a state, or fact of having a duty to deal with something, or of having control over someone"*, similar words being; authority, control, power, management, influence, and it's roots, (and makeup), are from; "ability to respond".

It seems that you are taking the meaning of the word accountability, are overlaying it on the word responsibility, and then attempting to assign blame, (a common misnomer), and fueling it with ...... 
Should I risk another outburst from you by naming this trigger? ... or can you accept my earlier olive branch statement of agreeing to disagree?

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## Intuthu Kagesi (4/3/21)

alex1501 said:


> View attachment 224047



Now that was a cool movie , (and I still don't want to be 969)

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## alex1501 (4/3/21)

YeOldeOke said:


> It has long been a problem that the population is aging, Japan is a prime example but it's a worldwide trend that has long caught the attention of the social engineering types in Davos and other pits o'hell. Too many old people to be supported by the young causing economic stress. Large migrations of younger people into developed countries is but one of the solutions. Why would killing off the old not also help.





https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107913/number-of-coronavirus-deaths-in-sweden-by-age-groups/

Forced retirement age in Sweden is 69
Retirement fund relief ~$220 000 000 US per year.
And that is just one European country 10 million people.

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## Stranger (4/3/21)

On a ride out on my BMW motorcycle the other day, I stopped outside a cafe to get a bottle of water. There were some young adults hanging around the cafe and they looked at the bike. They did not admire it like most people who saw it, they sneered.

When I came out of the shop I leaned against the bike to drink my water and one of the people asked me " how can you ride around on this thing, when people are starving."

My reply was that with the money I earned, I spent it on this bike. BMW then took that money and paid the guys who assembled the bike. 

Then they paid for the guys who built the engine. The guys who built the engine paid the guys who manufactured the parts who in turn paid the guys for the raw materials who bought them from the guys who mined it. The guys at the mine had to employ transport and drivers to carry the materials.

I then said that the bike needed tyres so there was a lot of people employed in the production transport and sale of those tyres.

The one young man stepped forward and said,

"Yeah Yeah we get it, you don't have to say any more, that really is a very nice bike"

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## grouter (4/3/21)

A good read:

https://tobaccoreporter.com/2021/03...m=rss&utm_campaign=innovation-and-its-enemies

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## CMMACKEM (4/3/21)

No but I reckon within the next two years, it will probably get heavily regulated and taxed in SA which many of us will have a hard time getting used to.

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