# Hazardous chemicals in flavoured e-cigarette vapour



## daveza (20/11/16)

Anyone care to comment on this ?

http://www.medicalbrief.co.za/archives/hazardous-chemicals-flavoured-e-cigarette-vapour/

Article is lengthy so haven't included it here.


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## Silver (20/11/16)

daveza said:


> Anyone care to comment on this ?
> 
> http://www.medicalbrief.co.za/archives/hazardous-chemicals-flavoured-e-cigarette-vapour/
> 
> Article is lengthy so haven't included it here.



Thanks @daveza 

Dr Farsalinos has examined that study and is trying to replicate it. He says he cannot find fault with the study they performed but the results are inconsistent with previous studies he has done.

We have touched on this here: (in the Dr Farsalinos thread)
http://www.ecigssa.co.za/a-message-from-dr-farsalinos-to-us-ecigs-sa-vapers.t6273/page-2#post-464426

Lets hope he replicates this study and manages to disprove it


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## stevie g (20/11/16)

Will read later but I've been doing my own research.

You need to keep perspective here, cigarettes contain all the chemicals listed for ecigs and more (in most cases) plus ecigs have lower amounts.

Harm reduction - we mustn't fool yourself that's vaping is harmless, just less harmful than smoking.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RichJB (20/11/16)

This was mentioned in the Dr Farsalinos thread as well. Dr Farsalinos is surprised by the results because his own testing for aldehydes didn't show up as badly as this. However, it should be noted that Dr F did his tests in 2015 when vaping wattages were lower. He tested at 7-10W iirc. Maciej Goniewicz's recent testing on flavours has revealed that as temps rise, several nasties appear in the vapour which weren't there at lower temps. And the nasties which were there increase exponentially at higher temps. This area of high-temp vaping and flavourants requires a lot more study.

As ever, we need some perspective on what the risk entails, assuming the study is accurate of course. 1ml of watermelon e-juice producing the same formaldehydes as 80 cigarettes sounds dire. But is formaldehyde a significant cancer risk in cigarette smoke or one of the less toxic components?

Reactions: Like 1


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## stevie g (20/11/16)

@Silver I hate how they don't tell you what devices were used. There are plenty of devices that you wouldn't pull for 4 seconds without getting a dry hit, which from these results leads me to suspect that's the cause of the high readings.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## stevie g (20/11/16)

RichJB said:


> This was mentioned in the Dr Farsalinos thread as well. Dr Farsalinos is surprised by the results because his own testing for aldehydes didn't show up as badly as this. However, it should be noted that Dr F did his tests in 2015 when vaping wattages were lower. He tested at 7-10W iirc. Maciej Goniewicz's recent testing on flavours has revealed that as temps rise, several nasties appear in the vapour which weren't there at lower temps. And the nasties which were there increase exponentially at higher temps. This area of high-temp vaping and flavourants requires a lot more study.
> 
> As ever, we need some perspective on what the risk entails, assuming the study is accurate of course. 1ml of watermelon e-juice producing the same formaldehydes as 80 cigarettes sounds dire. But is formaldehyde a significant cancer risk in cigarette smoke or one of the less toxic components?


not sure if it's accurate to equate high wattage with high temps, it all depends on the wicking ability.

Not saying you are but I think it's an interesting area that could be studied, high volume saturated coils vs higher temp lean running coils... Like ceramics.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Silver (20/11/16)

Sprint said:


> Will read later but I've been doing my own research.
> 
> You need to keep perspective here, cigarettes contain all the chemicals listed for ecigs and more plus ecigs have lower amounts.
> 
> Harm reduction - we mustn't fool yourself that's vaping is harmless, just less harmful than smoking.



@Sprint, read the link I posted above, then read the link that was posted by Johnny2Puffs which is Dr Farsalinos' reply.

Apparently, this study reports that on the watermelon flavour the aldehydes in vaping just 1ml of juice is more than 4 times the exposure from smoking 20 cigarettes.

I find this hard to believe myself - even though i am not a Scientist. Just from my reading of studies that have been done, this sounds quite alarming.

So its not just a study saying aldehydes are in ecigs, its actually saying more than that.

We will have to wait for Dr Farsalinos to try replicate this study and report back


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## blujeenz (20/11/16)

> atmospheric scientists at the *Desert Research Institute (DRI)* has turned their attention toward the growing e-cigarette industry and the unidentified effects of vaping on human health.



Wonder who funded their convenient sudden change, always a point of concern considering ulterior motives abound in this industry.

No word on how the tests were conducted, other than 3 types of attys were used (hoping to cover abroader spectrum maybe. )

Dr Farsalinos discovered that prior tests were done by a mechanical puffer at temps far exceeding human comfort.
Needless to say that type of sneaky biasing will produce results that show high levels of carcinogens.
Who the hell, in his right mind, vapes dry cotton?
We might start seeing disclaimers on atomisers to the tune of ... "_I being_ _compos mentis do hereby agree to uphold manufacturers cautionary advice"_

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver (20/11/16)

RichJB said:


> This was mentioned in the Dr Farsalinos thread as well. Dr Farsalinos is surprised by the results because his own testing for aldehydes didn't show up as badly as this. However, it should be noted that Dr F did his tests in 2015 when vaping wattages were lower. He tested at 7-10W iirc. Maciej Goniewicz's recent testing on flavours has revealed that as temps rise, several nasties appear in the vapour which weren't there at lower temps. And the nasties which were there increase exponentially at higher temps. This area of high-temp vaping and flavourants requires a lot more study.
> 
> As ever, we need some perspective on what the risk entails, assuming the study is accurate of course. 1ml of watermelon e-juice producing the same formaldehydes as 80 cigarettes sounds dire. But is formaldehyde a significant cancer risk in cigarette smoke or one of the less toxic components?



Very well summarised @RichJB 
Thanks

Following this and hoping DrF can disprove this study.

I hear you on the high temp and exponential increase in toxins. And i agree with you, we need to get some perspective on this.


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## stevie g (20/11/16)

From Dr Farslino circa May 2015

One of the fastest growing trends in the United States (especially among teenagers), electronic cigarettes are often touted as a safer and less addictive alternative to old-fashioned smoking. But after recent studies warned that e-cigarettes produce dangerous, cancer-causing chemicals known as aldehydes, many have been second-guessing the vaping craze.

However, in a new study published in the journal Addiction, some scientists are challenging the notion that normal e-cigarette use can actually release these carcinogens.

“Unfortunately, lack of understanding has resulted in gross misinterpretation of the data in previous studies,” says Dr. Konstantinos Farsalinos, a cardiologist at the Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center in Greece and coauthor on the study. “Any risk is minimal and not even comparable to smoking—I would say almost zero.”

Reactions: Agree 1


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## stevie g (20/11/16)

@RichJB 

See above. Farslino says "misinterpreted", probably like how the OP article was going into dry puff conditions.

Anyway looking forward to Farsalino's come back.


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## Silver (20/11/16)

Sprint said:


> From Dr Farslino circa May 2015
> 
> One of the fastest growing trends in the United States (especially among teenagers), electronic cigarettes are often touted as a safer and less addictive alternative to old-fashioned smoking. But after recent studies warned that e-cigarettes produce dangerous, cancer-causing chemicals known as aldehydes, many have been second-guessing the vaping craze.
> 
> ...



Agreed @Sprint - but that is quite old
This is a new study looking at particular flavours (DrF says the study these guys did looked at watermelon, blueberry and coffee)
I just hope that this study by Desert Research Institute suffered from the same lack of understanding that DrF spoke of in 2015.


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## RichJB (20/11/16)

@Sprint, what alarms me about this study is that Maciej Goniewicz is finding the same sort of thing. Not as alarming as this study, but he nevertheless concurs that flavourings and high temps are a source of concern. I don't know who conducted this study and whether they are trustworthy or not. But Goniewicz is a big supporter of vaping. I would find it hard to believe that he is fudging tests to produce alarming results. Anyway, let's hope there was some flawed methodology which can explain the results.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Silver (20/11/16)

RichJB said:


> @Sprint, what alarms me about this study is that Maciej Goniewicz is finding the same sort of thing. Not as alarming as this study, but he nevertheless concurs that flavourings and high temps are a source of concern. I don't know who conducted this study and whether they are trustworthy or not. But Goniewicz is a big supporter of vaping. I would find it hard to believe that he is fudging tests to produce alarming results. Anyway, let's hope there was some flawed methodology which can explain the results.



Thanks @RichJB 
Have you heard anything further from Maciej Goniewicz? Out of interest


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## stevie g (20/11/16)

@RichJB I'm struggling to understand high temp as a term.

Sure I run @40w in a Limitless Plus on a saturated wick even at the end of a drag cycle the wick is well saturated and the temp feels cool to me, as cool as say a melo 3 at 20w.

Who is "high temp" aimed at, people that like a scorching hot vape, I just don't get it?.

Reactions: Can relate 1


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## RichJB (20/11/16)

I haven't heard anything recent, @Silver. The last I heard was when he was warning that strawberry in particular was concerning him. He is hard at work on it, though, I'm sure we'll get updates soon.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Silver (20/11/16)

RichJB said:


> I haven't heard anything recent, @Silver. The last I heard was when he was warning that strawberry in particular was concerning him. He is hard at work on it, though, I'm sure we'll get updates soon.



Thanks @RichJB 
I watched that video I think you posted of him a while back. Was good. He came across as very good.


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## RichJB (20/11/16)

@Sprint, that was my understanding yes - the hotter the vapour is in your mouth, the more nasty stuff it will contain.


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## stevie g (20/11/16)

Sprint said:


> @RichJB I'm struggling to understand high temp as a term.
> 
> Sure I run @40w in a Limitless Plus on a saturated wick even at the end of a drag cycle the wick is well saturated and the temp feels cool to me, as cool as say a melo 3 at 20w.
> 
> Who is "high temp" aimed at, people that like a scorching hot vape, I just don't get it?.


okay it just clicked. I remember running 24g wire in my Limitless and think I experienced the high temp effect.

While the vape was cool it still had a tang to it as if the outer section of the wire was completely burning off the eliquid even though the wick was saturated.

I think using thick wire could be the danger of liquid on the outer layer of wire reaching boil off completely leading to higher temperature byproducts even though the inner core is saturated.

I did stop using the thick wire after noticing a burn from the tangy sensation and went back to my old staple 28g.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chukin'Vape (21/11/16)

My understanding was that formaldehyde was only caused when you ignite something - so technically if you have a dry hit, you produced some formaldehyde due to igniting the cotton. In this study they say they avoided "dry puff" situations. So how the hell did they get all this formaldehyde to show up in the tests? 

The other point that was not mentioned in the beginning of this study is - who funded it? I would seriously like to know this. On the DRI website in the about page, they declare some information about their revenue - so they are a revenue generating business. So this means that somebody paid for this study..... I would only trust a 100% independent study.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RichJB (21/11/16)

Unfortunately there are very few independent studies. Many of the studies which conclude that vaping is relatively harmless are funded by big tobacco. We all remember the study done in the BBC Horizon documentary, in which the damaged blood vessels of non-smokers and vapers repair far quicker than the blood vessels of a smoker. That study was done by big tobacco. 



blujeenz said:


> Dr Farsalinos discovered that prior tests were done by a mechanical puffer at temps far exceeding human comfort.
> Needless to say that type of sneaky biasing will produce results that show high levels of carcinogens.
> Who the hell, in his right mind, vapes dry cotton?



That doesn't appear to be the case here. The researchers tested both flavoured and unflavoured juices in the test atomisers, and found that:
1) The unflavoured juices produced no or very few aldehydes, and
2) The higher the flavouring percentage used in the juice, the more aldehydes were produced

That establishes cause and effect. If the aldehydes were formed by dry hits, aldehyde levels would have been the same for all tests. Of course, that doesn't mean that the test methodology was impeccable. But if they ran the unflavoured juices through a reference coil at 20W, mildly flavoured juices at 100W and then strongly flavoured juices at 150W, I'm sure Dr F will uncover it. The media won't report on the test methodology because it's too geeky for the public. But the detailed methodology will be available to researchers like Dr F. What Dr F needs to do is take their methodology, copy it exactly and replicate the study. If his results differ significantly then we have a problem and we need to investigate how these results were obtained.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## stevie g (21/11/16)

I just read up on aldehyde, it's a byproduct of ethanol. Makes total sense because plenty flavor compounds are dissolved in ethanol before pg is added.

Reactions: Informative 2


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