# Clone Wars



## Rob Fisher (5/3/15)

I'm not sure Peter Dibi is going to be too happy about this... he is a one man band creating a masterpiece only to be shamelessly copied. Not cool.

Reactions: Agree 6 | Winner 1


----------



## devdev (5/3/15)

Rob Fisher said:


> I'm not sure Peter Dibi is going to be too happy about this... he is a one man band creating a masterpiece only to be shamelessly copied. Not cool.



I'm sure a similar sentiment was expressed when the news of the KUI broke on the forum, but I also feel sorry for Rob at Reosmods. His design for the Reo was also blatantly plagiarized for the V1 non regulated version.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 2


----------



## stevie g (5/3/15)

clones are fine with me.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## huffnpuff (5/3/15)

devdev said:


> I'm sure a similar sentiment was expressed when the news of the KUI broke on the forum, but I also feel sorry for Rob at Reosmods. His design for the Reo was also blatantly plagiarized for the V1 non regulated version.



I disagree, did you even follow the development of the Kui? Scans had every opportunity to outright clone the Reo, but with feedback from the forums Scans got the patent and adjusted the Kui so as to not infringe on the the patent. Nothing blatant about it, they created something that is not infringing on the patent. People base mods and atomizers on others all the time, and anybody who actually handled a KUI can confirm it's definitely not a clone.

As for the Nuppin-type atty they're looking at. Agree, they shouldn't have called it a Nuppin, but
1) It's in 22mm, which is/was not available from the original maker
2) It's based on the Nuppin V1, which the original maker discontinued after a very limited run.

The final atty will most probably just be an adaption of the Nuppin-type deck (well being 22mm already puts it in this category), just like the whole bunch of big name atty's using the plumeveil deck or 26650/Copper versions of atties/mods not available in that size/material by the original makers. It doesn't mean they stole it. Funny how nobody here batted an eyelid at the 1:1 Odin clones, which are blatant copies of the original, and not an adaptation.

Reactions: Agree 6


----------



## Rob Fisher (5/3/15)

Somehow I doubt Rob or Peter will feel the same way. And calling it a Nuppin is horseshit! That's just damn blatant thievery and misleading!

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## stevie g (5/3/15)

all designs are copies no big deal it's catering to a different market than REO like a Mercedes vs Toyota . Is it called the nuppin or just like the title says "nuppin like"?.


----------



## stevie g (5/3/15)

I see on their advertorial they call it a nuppin clone. I'm fine with clones and anybody else running a clone shouldn't complain.


----------



## Philip Dunkley (6/3/15)

I'm really starting to hate the clone market more and more. I know so many mods that have released, and after an initial run, had to stop because it's been cloned and no one is buying. The problem is, people are then put off trying to be creative, just worrying about what China is doing. I'm glad that I have got rid of all of my clones, and anyway, then end up costing me more money in the long run anyway. @Rob Fisher Good on you mate, it's time that we all start to at least consider the implications of this in the long run.

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Fickie (6/3/15)

@Philip Dunkley , please don't hate me for asking. But did you really 'get rid' of your clones? As in bin them? Other wise its not quite the principle you might have aimed or hoped for. 

I think your fight is a good fight but if you have ever even bought one clone you owe it to anyone else that hopefully they will also come around and see the light like you did. Without a public calling out like you didn't suffer? Maybe?

What's that story again about letting he who is without sin cast the first stone? 

#kermit

Regards, 
Rafiq

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Fickie (6/3/15)

Pre order me, atty not required, I'll user my odin and darang clones who's original designers might not be a one man band but hey they ain't Peter Dibi so shame for them.

#kermit again (damn this is good tea)


----------



## JakesSA (6/3/15)

Meanwhile .. at ecigssa .. the clone wars continue unabated ..

Reactions: Funny 6


----------



## Philip Dunkley (6/3/15)

@Fickie There's a lot more to it than principle. I agree that sometimes clones have their place, purely because we cannot get hold of the originals here, but I do still get a pang of guilt every time I get one. I think it's because I came from the gaming industry, where I saw first hand what Piracy did to some developers. It literally closed the doors of some of the brightest studios our their. And I cast no stone bud, and will never judge anyone for doing it, I just made it a personal principle thing.
It is also a quality thing, some clones are shocking to say the least. But some are better than the original. That's where I have an issue with the original manufacturers, they charge an arm and a leg for a crap authentic. So it does work both ways. I still have 2 clones, although I did buy the originals of one of them. That is the Dimitri box, and the clone is amazing quality and better than the original, And the Cartel 26650 as it was my first Mech. That's it. And sorry, did not mean to offend anyone, and I'm certainly not judging anyone, but I just hope this Chinese market does not kill the guys out there trying to be as creative and innovative as possible. We also don't have much of a choice here, we scarcely get originals in this country.

PS I'd never hate you for asking bud, that's what a forum is about. To discuss. 
Healthy debate rocks!!

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2


----------



## Paulie (6/3/15)

lol am i the only one who feels like Scans are following the trends on our forum and when we all like a product they just going to clone it? hehehe feels that way

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 6


----------



## stevie g (6/3/15)

I can only buy clones and Chinese originals so lets leave the Americans to look after their own interests. If I was American and had access to the originals then no brainer I would buy original. Same as the paddy vape mech mod I would definitely have an issue with buying a clone of it if it existed. I say we can only buy as the market allows us to.


----------



## Fickie (6/3/15)

Thank you Philip, I think the principle and integrity are actually the main thing when it comes to this but clones are a rather complex issue and have become out of necessity a major part of business and the protection of IP for profit (a preferred term here for me would rather be 'making a living'. To this extent many businesses, believe it or not, some that are even hundreds of years old (I reviewed a 300 yo kite maker case study once) have *needed to adapt*.

The rise of the Chinese production methods and their low costs have (together with poor patent legislation and policing) made competing against them almost obsolete, a pipe dream. But society as a whole feeds it. Anyone have a Samsung Galaxy? Apple clone. It runs deeper than vape related items and most if not ALL of us are using a clone of something or the other, the fact that it might be backed by big brand (or not) shouldn't really make it ok.

A similar irk I just have to opportunistically point out, especially with us holier than thou South Africans, is that we are ALL criminals here! Every single one of us! Yeah! We complain about crime but the reality is in more 'disciplined societies' no one jay walks, or turns right from the straight lane or speeds on public roads at 250km/h and brags about it.

My big gripe about this thread is not about whether clones right or wrong, its that all of you chose to list it here in A (singular) vendor's forum. So what, is he the only vendor selling clones? Or can you also post the link for all the other vendors you 'told off'? And is it because Peter Dibi might be a brit and there is a developing friendship and Philipino's are less important? I don't know but from here with this cup of tea in hand (sorry couldn't resist) this looks more about political affiliations and ulterior motives (maybe unwittingly) than a discussion about the ethics of clones in general.

Lastly there are also the great divides, looks, intelligence and money. Many of us can't afford to get those originals. I can't help but think of a statement made with the current oil price ' efficient producers will do just that, produce efficiently' and the buyer will either vote in favour or against but it is much more complex and widespread than singling out a Vendor, which is what was done intended or not is not the issue here - it's done.

**edited for punctuation and other easy reading matters

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


----------



## Rob Fisher (6/3/15)

Sprint said:


> I can only buy clones and Chinese originals so lets leave the Americans to look after their own interests. If I was American and had access to the originals then no brainer I would buy original. Same as the paddy vape mech mod I would definitely have an issue with buying a clone of it if it existed. I say we can only buy as the market allows us to.



And that's my issue... we can buy Nuppins!


----------



## Fickie (6/3/15)

Sorry @Rob Fisher it looks like I am talking around you, please accept my, with respect acknowledgement.


----------



## Rob Fisher (6/3/15)

Fickie said:


> My big gripe about this thread is not about are clones right or wrong its that all of you chose to list it here in A (singular) vendor's forum. So what is he the only vendor selling clones? Or can you also post the link for all the other vendors you 'told off'? And is it because Peter Dibi might be a brit and there is a developing friendship and Philipino's are less important. I don't know but from here with this cup of tea in hand (sorry couldn't resist) this looks more about political affiliations and ulterior motives (maybe unwittingly) than a discussion about the ethics of clones in general.



Yip there is no doubt that it's a hot button for me because I am mates with both Rob at Resomods and Peter from Dibi Mods (Peter is American btw).

@Fickie no problem with what you say because it's all true and I don't take umbrage at all... it's a good discussion and often ignored and brushed under the table issue.

I was going to just keep quiet on the issue but the blatant rip off of the Nuppin just caused me to crack.


----------



## Fickie (6/3/15)

Rob Fisher said:


> Yip there is no doubt that it's a hot button for me because I am mates with both Rob at Resomods and Peter from Dibi Mods (Peter is American btw).
> 
> @Fickie no problem with what you say because it's all true and I don't take umbrage at all... it's a good discussion and often ignored and brushed under the table issue.
> 
> I was going to just keep quiet on the issue but the blatant rip off of the Nuppin just caused me to crack.



Just trying to make a point not sure if your lineage is Brit, French or whatever. I also want to make it clear I am not singling you for ulterior motives, some people here may have chosen a side in vendor tiff's that naturally arise between competitors and now jump on a witch hunt band wagon because they like x vendor - whom also is selling clones too - Boo! if that is the case. This vendor forum is grossly inappropriate for this discussion. 

I agree though it is a good and even important discussion, one that may affect us as South African's, as I still think of us as industrious can do bunch, so IP is relevant to us. I just felt it important that whomever happens across this thread has a weighted view that the discussion is not really meant to be about Pallas, no?


----------



## Philip Dunkley (6/3/15)

Yeah, @Fickie , I agree, we are all using a clone of something, you're right, and the necessity of this cannot be argued. And I suppose I generalised more around all the clones than this specific one as well. Just wish there was an easy way to make everyone happy, but then I suppose life would be remarkably boring.


----------



## Andre (6/3/15)

Fickie said:


> Just trying to make a point not sure if your lineage is Brit, French or whatever. I also want to make it clear I am not singling you for ulterior motives, some people here may have chosen a side in vendor tiff's that naturally arise between competitors and now jump on a witch hunt band wagon because they like x vendor - whom also is selling clones too - Boo! if that is the case. This vendor forum is grossly inappropriate for this discussion.
> 
> I agree though it is a good and even important discussion, one that may affect us as South African's, as I still think of us as industrious can do bunch, so IP is relevant to us. I just felt it important that whomever happens across this thread has a weighted view that the discussion is not really meant to be about Pallas, no?


This has got absolutely nothing to do with Pallas, which I think everyone concerned understands. It has all to do with SCANS and their conduct, not the fact that they make clones.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Rob Fisher (6/3/15)

Moving discussion out of Vendor area!


----------



## Fickie (6/3/15)

Andre said:


> This has got absolutely nothing to do with Pallas, which I think everyone concerned understands. It has all to do with SCANS and their conduct, not the fact that they make clones.



Sorry Andre but I don't completely agree. There are many clone manufacturers not just x clone maker, who is standing up for other OEM's? Why did this topic have to come up here? Only about X clone maker, in a supplier forum? Dang man open a new thread!


----------



## johan (6/3/15)

The only reason clones exist is because of: (1) demand, (2) someone else can manufacture it cheaper, and (3) penny wise pound foolish consumers, but that's just my opinion.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Fickie (6/3/15)

Personally with many things I have always tried to get an original, mostly for quality reasons. I must say, I have strangely never given this much thought with vaping. I wonder now why? Maybe its because its a means to an end for me (to not smoke) I have never really taken to from a commercial, hobby perspective.

Clearly with the industry doubling its revenue size in the last year it will be a big thing.

If an original was to expensive for me I wouldn't buy it, does that mean the producer loses me as a customer or was I never going to be their customer? I certainly don't buy $100 clones either.


----------



## Fickie (6/3/15)

johan said:


> The only reason clones exist is because of: (1) demand, (2) someone else can manufacture it cheaper, and (3) penny wise pound foolish consumers, but that's just my opinion.



I had a carburettor gasket fail within 20 000km twice on a German OEM part at one stage. I put it down to the rubber used reacting to the petroleum distillates in the petrol, yet it was meant to carry petroleum. I used a pirate for 236 000km without ever failing.

Years later I found out a different German manufacturer voids motor warranties on their bikes if you use a certain brand of fuel here in SA (sorted since) the South African fuel producer / refiner had an additive destroying all rubber seals on the engine.

Sometimes, the OEM doesn't get it right not even German ones

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## John (7/3/15)

TL;DR

Edit; Forgot the link
http://info-electronic-cigarette.com/to-clone-or-not-to-clone/


----------



## Matt (7/3/15)

I understand if someone has a problem with clones but if you ever bought a clone dont judge the people that still buy clones. 

If vapeclub brings in a new clone for bottom feeding the same people jump on it. Even reomods is selling clones to put on the reo. But because its a atty they call nuppin like its suddenly a problem. Abit confusing.

Reactions: Agree 5


----------



## n0ugh7_zw (7/3/15)

*Clones are A-ok with me... *

Just reread what people have posted.

Let me put it like this... I will NEVER buy an authentic anything (MOD, atty, etc) that is over $50.00... Far as I'm concerned, those are the guys who want to watch the world burn. There are cheaper better ways, if they don't want to play the game, then they don't want my money. Their choice, not mine.

I think its a simple fact of the world we live in. Actually crafting something (Mod, Atomizer, etc...) yourself in a western country is not a cheap endeavour. So no matter what, the stuff is going to be expensive, frankly too expensive. For the majority of people who want the piece of hardware in question. This creates demand for cheaper alternatives.

In steps, China. They're not a bunch of evil companies trying to steal the life force of these western manufacturers. They're simply filling in a gap in the market.

If anyone is to blame its the authentic mod makers, they've grossly miss-managed the situation. They should be doing their designs in the west, but getting the manufacturing handled in China. Then their prices would be more realistic. Had this been the plan from the start, cloning would be much, much less of an issue.

Some people may think, that the quality of the pieces will suffer if they're made in China? Thats utter crap... In fact a lot of hardware that is sort after for its build quality is made in China.

Theres no honour in letting ones weaknesses cause issues with their company. China has spent the last 50 years or more making itself into the manufacturing powerhouse of this world. They are the most cost effective, its not even debatable. It's a fact. That said, their area of weakness (though rapidly they're fixing this) is design/conceptualisation... Which happens to be one of the strengths of the western world.

Am I the only one who sees that there is massive potential for both sides, if they work with each other?

The only reasonable exception, I feel. To what I've said, is limited run pieces (those will cost an organ or 2, in any case).

_Strangely, I expect to get many dislikes and disagrees for this post. Thats fine, this is the internet, it really can't hurt me, nor can it tarnish the truth in what I've said. 


_

Reactions: Agree 9


----------



## n0ugh7_zw (7/3/15)

Has anyone here heard of "Boiled Frog Syndrome"?
Basically you take a frog, chuck it in boiling water, the frog feels that its hot and jumps out. 
But if the water starts off cool, and slowly comes to a boil, the frogs cooked before it knows whats going on. 

That's just my way of saying that in order to see things clearly, being in the thick of it, doesn't always offer the most accurate representation of the situation.


----------



## Andre (7/3/15)

n0ugh7_zw said:


> Has anyone here heard of "Boiled Frog Syndrome"?
> Basically you take a frog, chuck it in boiling water, the frog feels that its hot and jumps out.
> But if the water starts off cool, and slowly comes to a boil, the frogs cooked before it knows whats going on.
> 
> That's just my way of saying that in order to see things clearly, being in the thick of it, doesn't always offer the most accurate representation of the situation.


Meaning you have to change your title to "Boiled Frog Syndrome Sufferer"?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


----------



## Rob Fisher (7/3/15)

Matt said:


> I understand if someone has a problem with clones but if you ever bought a clone dont judge the people that still buy clones.
> 
> If vapeclub brings in a new clone for bottom feeding the same people jump on it. Even reomods is selling clones to put on the reo. But because its a atty they call nuppin like its suddenly a problem. Abit confusing.



I never judged anyone for buying clones... we have all done it and there is no doubt we will all continue to do so for various reasons from price to unavailability.

But if you think taking someones intellectual property and copying it for profit is OK then so be it. The issue I have is the blatant STEALING of intellectual property. My problem is not with anyone locally but simply the thieving chinese company stealing a one man bands design and even using their name. 

But being as this issue is an emotive one and there are arguments for and against and none of us will ever agree on the issue this is my last post on the said issue.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## n0ugh7_zw (7/3/15)

This whole thing is actually just a symptom of a fundam


Andre said:


> Meaning you have to change your title to "Boiled Frog Syndrome Sufferer"?


 
Just for you

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## johan (7/3/15)

As long as we just don't start to see clone chicks in Rob's lounge!

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 3


----------



## n0ugh7_zw (7/3/15)

Western culture does have a bit of an unnatural love affair with intellectual property and patents. 

The Apple vs. Samsung soap opera is a good illustration of it. 

I'm not saying it needs to be gotten rid of totally. But it definitely needs to be looked at, and amended. Because the way its currently going, its got a choke hold on any kind of innovation. Across a broad spectrum of industries.


----------



## free3dom (8/3/15)

n0ugh7_zw said:


> Western culture does have a bit of an unnatural love affair with intellectual property and patents.
> 
> The Apple vs. Samsung soap opera is a good illustration of it.
> 
> I'm not saying it needs to be gotten rid of totally. But it definitely needs to be looked at, and amended. Because the way its currently going, its got a choke hold on any kind of innovation. Across a broad spectrum of industries.



Cloning...i.e. copying something 1:1 (even using a name you don't own) is not the same as "infringing on intellectual property" - these are separate things. Infringing is bullshit as people are trying to own ideas, which IMO is crap. If everyone had to pay the inventor of the wheel, well...you get the idea 

However, when you take someone else's idea, make a copy of it (including their name) and then sell it without paying them a cent...that's fed up. It's not about quality or morals or any of that...just common decency. If a "cloner" takes a design, copies it, tweaks it, etc and then *puts their own name on it*, I would be 100% happy, as would 90% of the people who take offense with clones 

Right now they make crap clones, with no or very little QA, and they tarnish the brand of the original creator because their logo is all over the crappy device...that's really messed up, no matter how you look at it

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## rogue zombie (8/3/15)

I'm in two minds about clones.

China, basically, is wanting and achieving being the 'manufacturing' capital of the world.

Do you know what Mercedes did to combat the cloning - they set up a division, even supply them so that they could create a 'budget merc' (with a seperate badge of course.)

China will do what they do, and they are providing for a price-conscious market. 

AND in all honestly, I think Svoemesto actually have these clones to contribute to the success of the Kayfun.... The name has been immortalized, not by the real thing, but by clones.

I also think to myself, what has Svoemesto done to help me get a real Kayfun? Have they even approached a retailer or distro here?

I don't like buying from overseas retailers, and definitely not a R2k atty. I want to know that I could take it back to my retailer should anything go wrong.

With all this said, I would personally not clone anything. There's no need. Look at LEMO, Billows etc. Or every other car on the road - they all learn from each other.

I also would be gutted if my own masterpiece was shamelessly cloned.

When it comes to buying - help me buy your product or I will buy whatever is freely available.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


----------



## JakesSA (8/3/15)

VapeClub tried very hard to get Svomesto originals but in the end they did not like the other products we sell. Besides, I would not be able to offer a better price than the consumer can get from any other international store, not even close. The market here is just too small to warrant a 100 unit order with a 10% profit margin. The same goes for a lot of other 'famous' original equipment manufacturers. If one was to change it to 30% margin, the effort would be ridiculed, harshly. 

Sorry but that is the sad reality for independent vendors. Original equipment manufacturers, in general, do not give two cents about our market size, weak exchange rates and any other constraints unique to South Africa and its consumers. Profit and what seems like 'protection of exclusivity' is the only major concern for many of them.

Just my 2 cents...

(Note that I am generalising here a bit, not referring to pdib specifically...)

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


----------



## n0ugh7_zw (8/3/15)

JakesSA said:


> VapeClub tried very hard to get Svomesto originals but in the end they did not like the other products we sell. Besides, I would not be able to offer a better price than the consumer can get from any other international store, not even close. The market here is just too small to warrant a 100 unit order with a 10% profit margin. The same goes for a lot of other 'famous' original equipment manufacturers. If one was to change it to 30% margin, the effort would be ridiculed, harshly.
> 
> Sorry but that is the sad reality for independent vendors. Original equipment manufacturers, in general, do not give two cents about our market size, weak exchange rates and any other constraints unique to South Africa and its consumers. Profit and what seems like 'protection of exclusivity' is the only major concern for many of them.
> 
> ...




Thats an excellent point.

It's a situation devoid of logic, why would anyone want to reward a manufacturer for being insensitive to the plight of vendors wanting to sell their products? To me that falls into the whole idea of "If they don't want to play the game, then they don't want my money."

That protection of exclusivity thing, to me at least. Feels like its more about herding consumers into a frenzy, to buy their stuff, so that logical thought doesn't doesn't take place.

How is it, that svoemesto can charge $180.00+ for something that Tobeco charges $15-20.00 for? Sure their R&D, and manufacturing costs more... But 9 times more? seriously? Theres something highly fishy about it.

JDtech is the same story. A Stingray X is $250.00+ the Infinite clone is $30-40.00. Worse this is the Philippines they have cheap labour, their cost of production should be lower, they should be more open minded with regards to outsourcing production to China. Maybe they are, and are just making a whole crap ton of profits?

Bottom line, if these companies aren't interested in doing what the need to do, to give us, the consumers the best deal possible. Then they have no business whining about Chinese clones. If they were doing things right, clones wouldn't be an issue.

Piracy of games, software and music, fall into this same issue. If they had less markup, they would sell vastly larger quantities, and their overall profits would be better. Most people don't want to be pirates. But in its current state, the navy sucks.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


----------



## JakesSA (8/3/15)

Just to put things in a different perspective, if I was to personally make a Reo or a Nuppin I would probably charge a lot more for it than they do and would be ecstatic to have them cloned, just for the free publicity and massively enhanced market penetration.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2


----------



## The Wolf (8/3/15)

I prefer originals but I wouldn't knock anyone for buying a clone. There are clones of most products everywhere.
What I can read between the lines here it seems that some MOD Makers keep there supplies low and demand high, this the original is not always available and enter the clone. Personally I prefer to save up and wait for the euthenics and if it never comes then so be it.
I don't hate clones and guess they serve their market however they should not put the real products name on it, that's plain Fup and wrong.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## kimbo (8/3/15)

Like i said before, it all goes to what is searched the most. Names don't matter to them it all goes about having your product seen when some one does a search and believe me i have an Alibaba account Nuppin get searched a lot

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## WHeunis (8/3/15)

I wasn't gonna enter this thread, but I feel like I can devil's advocate a small bit for the sake of perspective...



JakesSA said:


> VapeClub tried very hard to get Svomesto originals but in the end they did not like the other products we sell. Besides, I would not be able to offer a better price than the consumer can get from any other international store, not even close. The market here is just too small to warrant a 100 unit order with a 10% profit margin. The same goes for a lot of other 'famous' original equipment manufacturers. If one was to change it to 30% margin, the effort would be ridiculed, harshly.
> 
> Sorry but that is the sad reality for independent vendors. Original equipment manufacturers, in general, do not give two cents about our market size, weak exchange rates and any other constraints unique to South Africa and its consumers. Profit and what seems like 'protection of exclusivity' is the only major concern for many of them.
> 
> ...



Perfect honesty, I can't say that I wouldve reacted/responded the same way Svomesto did - BUT - it's not hard to see their perspective here.
(This is NOT a slam on your business, just some honesty, so take it with a pinch of salt)

Until recently, 90% of the hardware you sold, were clones. Sure, the kanger stuff were there. Sure, other authentics were there. But let's face it, that is/was not really Svomesto's target market nor their competing products...
Their competing products were other RBA devices. At that time, in SA, its highly unlikely that any one store sold more than one or two authentic products alongside many clones.

Now, if we imagine Svomesto played ball and you stocked authentics... A customer would browse your store, and see most of your clones selling for ~R500 or less. Then they see the Svomesto for R2k.
VERY few people would actually buy the Svomesto product. I am not saying you wouldn't have sold any/many/etc.
I am saying that the image alone that a significant portion of your customers would have at that point is more likely to be _"&^%$ that &^%$ those &^%$ greedy ^&%#$&^* can shove it! &^%$ Svomesto!"_, than the more reasonable _"Clone vs Authentic, you get what you pay for"_ viewpoint that a (probably) smaller demographic of people would end up on.

That could detract very seriously to an OEM from allowing their products into such an environment. Would be pretty bad for them if a significant portion of the vaping public carried such a bad image of their products...

But, this does create a catch 22 situation for you vendors. I do get it!
You wanna stock authentics, but cant, because you already stock clones, but you only stock clones coz you can't (reasonably) get hold of authentics...

Sadly, having dealt with a lot of international customers myself, I have to say that you did bite down hard on one major fact. 99% of the world don't give a flaming flying rat's @$$ about SA and our unique anything, much less problems.




n0ugh7_zw said:


> Thats an excellent point.
> 
> It's a situation devoid of logic, why would anyone want to reward a manufacturer for being insensitive to the plight of vendors wanting to sell their products? To me that falls into the whole idea of "If they don't want to play the game, then they don't want my money."
> 
> ...



And well, that is the core of the debate, all day long for many years now. Creators in general want to make money. They overprice their product in a mindset that this would mean more money faster.

Most of them however ignore that CoD sold (hypothetical numbers) 6m copies within it's first week at $60 each.
But what they ignore to see is that they could have EASILY 10x more (60m) by only charging 6x less ($10).
In the end they wouldv'e made the same amount of money...
Yeah I know there are other factors to include and all that spazz, but bottomline is still valid.

But there is this little "other side" of the spectrum.
Wild cases do exist.
Why couldn't the same thinking exist for Lamborghini or Ferarri? Heck, even the Mark Bugs Chalice?!
Well, here you start stepping on another stone of another kind.
Would Ferarri be able to handcraft each and every car they make at that price? Would they be able to trust such a large scale factory to produce the same quality as they do hand-checking every part individually?
Would a Ferarri even still be the "status symbol" that it is if everybody could own one?

Sometimes, people do want to create art. Functional art as it may be, art nonetheless...
Sometimes, they also want this art to be special. Limited. Unique. Privileged.
Is that a snotty and entitles way to think of something you made? Is that a terribly selfish and elitist way to go about things?

Yes... *BUT*

But remember this: (something i always lean back on when criticized for the way I play some multiplayer games)
"*You* did not pay for my copy of this game. *You* did not pay for this computer I am playing it on. *You* are not paying for the internet I am using to play it. And for as long as that stays true, I will do things in whatever way I see fit; Whether YOU like it or not."



*Conclusion:*
(my own conclusion)

And even after all that said... MAYBE when you create something, you should consider putting the customer first. MAYBE when your things get cloned, it shows that you might be doing something wrong. MAYBE your pricepoint was too high. MAYBE your "exclusivity" model for limited stock was ridiculous.
Or MAYBE you are entitled to do whatever you want in whatever way you want.
But... MAYBE you then only have yourself to blame when your BF3 profile looks like absolute rubbish... After all, you have been playing this game the way YOU wanted it!

But MAYBE, just maybe... (this applies to authentic and clone manufacturers alike) everyone is gonna do whatever the hell they want, regardless of what anyone else thinks about it. And MAYBE, unless someone is actually paying them to do something differently, they will just keep doing it their own way.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 4


----------



## JakesSA (8/3/15)

Umm yes ... I think.

Note that VapeClub doesn't sell items cloned from Aspire, Kanger, UD, eLeaf etc. because these products do not present unreasonable barriers to entry and the clones of these that can be found are often just factory rejects, they cannot be made and sold at a better price for the same quality. That is the principle of the Chinese free market economy.

There is the idea that the manufacturing quality of many original vaping products is extremely high and the manufacturing extremely complex as can be seen with the comparisons to exotic cars and large software products. In reality this is untrue. For the better part these are extremely simple devices which makes cloning a simple task in return. Even the very complex Kayfun 4 had clones released practically on the same day as the original ... although I do have my suspicions on how that came about. In fact I now have my suspicions on who really owns the Russian RTA production line as well...

Svomesto has issues with any clones being sold alongside their atomisers not just Kayfuns but even having met all their sales requirements the pricing still made it untenable. That is their moral high ground and I am ok with that.

My moral high ground is that unlike exotic cars, games and overpriced cellphones, vaping has and will save countless lives, and if selling a good working product contributes towards that cause, I most certainly will, cloned or otherwise.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 2


----------



## WHeunis (8/3/15)

JakesSA said:


> Umm yes ... I think.
> 
> Note that VapeClub doesn't sell items cloned from Aspire, Kanger, UD, eLeaf etc. because these products do not present unreasonable barriers to entry and the clones of these that can be found are often just factory rejects, they cannot be made and sold at a better price for the same quality. That is the principle of the Chinese free market economy.
> 
> ...



Yeah, the car thing doesn't fit perfectly, but i figured it's as universally relateable as possible to anyone who reads it.

But yeah, you pretty much confirmed my suspicions about Svomesto not willing to sell their stuff in the same shop as clones will be found. Reasoning is another thing...

Regarding your high ground... A lot of vape shops and even vapers revolve around that same philosophy, but I can't in all honesty say that I believe the manufacturers to share the view.
I honestly think 99% of them are in it for the money alone - a diametrical opposition to the end-users and end-sellers perhaps?

We all have to do what we have to do. I am in no way blameless, shameless, or without my own transgressions.
I have no right to judge anyone for making, selling, buying, or using anything in any way whatsoever. Clones, originals, copies, knockoffs, whatever!
I can disapprove of something all day long, for myself... but we really do need to tread carefully when we judge others; Lest we become the Westboro Baptist Church...


----------

