# Menthol help needed.



## Raindance (16/10/17)

Hi all

I am currently putting together a fruity menthol mix. I managed to get together a reasonable fruit flavor which still needs some tuning but the menthol component is eluding me.
_
Swap Litchi and Raspberry around = V0.1 16/10/2017 (60/40 VG/PG) 2.5mg Nic
Raspberry (INW) 1.5%
Litchi (TFA) 3%
Menthol (TFA) 0.5% (0.104g/20ml)
EM 0.1% - Zero for now
Marshmallow (TFA) 1.5%_

I want to get a nice fresh menthol in the background which cools this very sweet recipe down a bit. As it is above the menthol is hardly noticeable. I added more (Double dose) to the previous version 0 mix and the result was bitter and the menthol hid almost everything else.

Is menthol really what I want or do I add something else? peppermint or TFA Koolada or FW Kool Effects? How much? I really don't want to ruin another mix.

Much appreciated, TIA.

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## hands (16/10/17)

You could try some Polar Blast from FA.

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## Andre (16/10/17)

Or try 0.5 % TFA Menthol with 0.5 % FA Polar Blast/TFA Koolada for the best of both worlds. 

INW Raspberry is very potent. Personally I would not go over 1.0 % in a mix.

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## Morph699 (17/10/17)

Howdy, you could also try adding some blackice - it has a nice cold effect. I would double the amount of menthol but it depends on how much you are making as well as how long it's going to be steeped for.

Ive found that 5-10 drops for a 100ml are more than enough for both the blackice and menthol. After steeping for at least a month they both much better.

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## Raindance (17/10/17)

hands said:


> You could try some Polar Blast from FA.





Andre said:


> Or try 0.5 % TFA Menthol with 0.5 % FA Polar Blast/TFA Koolada for the best of both worlds.
> 
> INW Raspberry is very potent. Personally I would not go over 1.0 % in a mix.





Morph699 said:


> Howdy, you could also try adding some blackice - it has a nice cold effect. I would double the amount of menthol but it depends on how much you are making as well as how long it's going to be steeped for.
> 
> Ive found that 5-10 drops for a 100ml are more than enough for both the blackice and menthol. After steeping for at least a month they both much better.


Thanks for all the advice guys.

@hands and @Morph699 I was under the impression that most of these 'chillers' are basically just menthols sold under different brand names. First time doing a menthol mix on purpose so never actually researched these concentrates.

@Andre, you are correct about the raspberry, my initial mix at 3% was akin to panado syrup and even after halving it, it still comes through very prominent. Will do another mix reduced as per your guidance.

Thanks again.

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## Tai (17/10/17)

Not tried FA polar ice but FA arctic menthol is a winner for me. Usually at around 4%

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## Raindance (17/10/17)

Drop Rasberry by half and add koolada same % as Menthol. Cut MM in half. = V0.2 17/10/2017
Raspberry (INW) 0.75%
Litchi (TFA) 3.5% (Up 0.5% after first taste)
Menthol (TFA) 0.5% (one drop per 10ml)
Koolada (TFA) 0.5%
EM 0.1% - Zero for now
Marshmallow (TFA) 0.75%
Kiwi Fruit (CLY) 0.2% (New addition, powerful concentrate)

Getting somewhere. Just now there are so many more 'chillers' to try out. My next DIY buy will be an interesting one!
Need to get it cooler but without the burn of my current menthol. Needs to steep as well, pity one does not get a concentrate called patience...

Regards

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## Rob Fisher (18/10/17)

Vapour Mountain Menthol Concentrate is brilliant to add drops to juice that needs it. @Oupa do you still do concentrates?

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## Raindance (18/10/17)

Rob Fisher said:


> Vapour Mountain Menthol Concentrate is brilliant to add drops to juice that needs it. @Oupa do you still do concentrates?


Yes Rob, they do. Making a turn there this afternoon need a condensation plug for the BB as well. Thanks for the pointer.

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## Andre (18/10/17)

Raindance said:


> Drop Rasberry by half and add koolada same % as Menthol. Cut MM in half. = V0.2 17/10/2017
> Raspberry (INW) 0.75%
> Litchi (TFA) 3.5% (Up 0.5% after first taste)
> Menthol (TFA) 0.5% (one drop per 10ml)
> ...


Menthols and Mints have a definite taste. Menthol gives that burn. TFA Koolada, FA Polar Blast and the WS23 variants are supposed to just give a chill.

Some taste cardboard with Koolada, get a throat irritation and it is said to mute juices in the longer term. Menthol is said to have the same muting effect.

Polar Blast seems to be without these problems.

The WS23 variants are the most potent coolers, made popular by Malaysian juice makers. From what I have read it is mostly used in a 30% dilution overseas. Blck Vapour sells it as Black Ice in a 20% solution. Valley Vapour sells it as WS23 in a 30% solution.

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## stevie g (18/10/17)

Black ice 20% at 2% with TFA menthol at .5% is chilled and won't hide your fruity flavors.

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## Friep (18/10/17)

stevie g said:


> Black ice 20% at 2% with TFA menthol at .5% is chilled and won't hide your fruity flavors.



I second the black ice at 1% - 2%. Made this almost a month ago:
https://alltheflavors.com/recipes/54099

The pur watermelon is still there haven't vaded and not muted by the black ice. 

The 2% gives a nice icey feeling that lingers especially at higher watts. Like after you vaped and you exhale you feel the frost at the back of the throat.

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## Andre (18/10/17)

Friep said:


> I second the black ice at 1% - 2%. Made this almost a month ago:
> https://alltheflavors.com/recipes/54099
> 
> The pur watermelon is still there haven't vaded and not muted by the black ice.
> ...


That recipe's WS-23 is the 30% solution. With Black Ice to get the same you had to go with 3.0% Black Ice, if my calculation is correct.

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## Friep (18/10/17)

Andre said:


> That recipe's WS-23 is the 30% solution. With Black Ice to get the same you had to go with 3.0% Black Ice, if my calculation is correct.



This is true I am still scared of this stuff but 2% seems to be nice and chilly for me.

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## Friep (18/10/17)

@Andre the math is messing with me.
Can you please explain the method you used?

My line of thinking: increase 2% by 10% giving me 2.2% but I know this is incorrect because there is a different method for working with solutions.

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## Andre (18/10/17)

Friep said:


> @Andre the math is messing with me.
> Can you please explain the method you used?
> 
> My line of thinking: increase 2% by 10% giving me 2.2% but I know this is incorrect because there is a different method for working with solutions.


Lol, not the foggiest idea. Just seems right looking at the ratios. Where are the maths clever people!

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## Raindance (18/10/17)

2 x 1.1 = 2.2

Correct.

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## Andre (18/10/17)

Raindance said:


> 2 x 1.1 = 2.2
> 
> Correct.


I am more than prepared to bow to your superior knowledge, but the 20% dilution is like one third weaker than the 30% solution. Should the percentage added not be at least one third more?

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## Raindance (18/10/17)

Andre said:


> I am more than prepared to bow to your superior knowledge, but the 20% dilution is like one third weaker than the 30% solution. Should the percentage added not be at least one third more?


Ok, I may have jumped the gun by not reading the whole conversation. I assume the question is based on this statement?
"_The WS23 variants are the most potent coolers, made popular by Malaysian juice makers. From what I have read it is mostly used in a 30% dilution overseas. Blck Vapour sells it as Black Ice in a 20% solution. Valley Vapour sells it as WS23 in a 30% solution_."
In which case 30 is 10 more than 20 but 10 is 50% of 20 so to get whatever is 20 to the level of 30 you must add 50% more. Clear as mud! Lol

Proof: 20 x 1.5 = 30

Regards

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## Andre (18/10/17)

Raindance said:


> Ok, I may have jumped the gun by not reading the whole conversation. I assume the question is based on this statement?
> "_The WS23 variants are the most potent coolers, made popular by Malaysian juice makers. From what I have read it is mostly used in a 30% dilution overseas. Blck Vapour sells it as Black Ice in a 20% solution. Valley Vapour sells it as WS23 in a 30% solution_."
> In which case 30 is 10 more than 20 but 10 is 50% of 20 so to get whatever is 20 to the level of 30 you must add 50% more. Clear as mud! Lol
> 
> ...


Yeah, clear as mud for me too!
The question is this: The recipe says add 2% of a 30% dilution. You only have a 20% dilution. What percentage do you have to add to be equal to what the recipe requires? Where is @Silver when one needs his brain!

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## Silver (18/10/17)

Andre said:


> Yeah, clear as mud for me too!
> The question is this: The recipe says add 2% of a 30% dilution. You only have a 20% dilution. What percentage do you have to add to be equal to what the recipe requires? Where is @Silver when one needs his brain!



Oh my gosh @Andre, you calling on me for a DIY question!
I am honoured
Be right back

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## Raindance (18/10/17)

Andre said:


> Yeah, clear as mud for me too!
> The question is this: The recipe says add 2% of a 30% dilution. You only have a 20% dilution. What percentage do you have to add to be equal to what the recipe requires? Where is @Silver when one needs his brain!


2% x 1.5 = 3%

The textbook way: (Required percentage/Available percentage) x Available percentage 

Regards

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## Adephi (18/10/17)

Andre said:


> That recipe's WS-23 is the 30% solution. With Black Ice to get the same you had to go with 3.0% Black Ice, if my calculation is correct.




My amateur maths also get to to 3%.

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## Silver (18/10/17)

Andre said:


> Yeah, clear as mud for me too!
> The question is this: The recipe says add 2% of a 30% dilution. You only have a 20% dilution. What percentage do you have to add to be equal to what the recipe requires? Where is @Silver when one needs his brain!



The answer is you need to add 3ml of the 20% dilution to give you the same as 2% of the 30% dilution.

Assume 100ml total fluid
Lets say you have the 30% dilution at *2%*
Thats 2ml of the 30% solution
Or 0.6ml of the true pure "underlying" cooler
(2 x 30%)

If you only have 20% dilution
Then in 100ml, say you put in *3%*
Thats 3ml
So underlying cooler is 0.6ml, same as above
(3 x20%)

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## Adephi (18/10/17)

Silver said:


> The answer is you need to add 3ml of the 20% dilution to give you the same as 2% of the 30% dilution.
> 
> Assume 100ml total fluid
> Lets say you have the 30% dilution at *2%*
> ...



Thats exactly how I calculated it. Just sounded silly when i started typing it out.

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## Friep (18/10/17)

Thanks guys now my mind can rest really appreciate the feedback sorry for hijacking your thread @Raindance

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## kev mac (19/10/17)

Raindance said:


> Hi all
> 
> I am currently putting together a fruity menthol mix. I managed to get together a reasonable fruit flavor which still needs some tuning but the menthol component is eluding me.
> _
> ...


Have you tried menthol crystals? Since discovering them I use nothing but and they'really economical.

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## Raindance (19/10/17)

kev mac said:


> Have you tried menthol crystals? Since discovering them I use nothing but and they'really economical.


With so many options it looks like menthols on their own are a broad subject for study. To think diy looked so easy when i started.

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## kev mac (20/10/17)

Raindance said:


> With so many options it looks like menthols on their own are a broad subject for study. To think diy looked so easy when i started.


Take a breath, it can seem daunting but with crystals it's actually easy. As a starting point you basically mix about 3 to one crystal being one and the rest your pg-vg.There are many tutorials on YouTube and you can dial in your menthol to taste. A small package (it doesn't say the amt.on my pack)say an ounce will make probably a gallon of menthol liquid. The package cost about 4 bucks.

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