# My journey into temperature control



## n0ugh7_zw

*Afternoon Vapers & Vapettes*
I'm going to chronicle my explorations with temperature control. It might be helpful for people wanting to get into it, or for people having issues with it.

So far the only temp sensing mod I have is a 40W flask clone for VK. I've not used an authentic DNA40 or one of those new fangled SX based devices.

So here's where I'm at with it, so far.

I'm using a nickel OCC coil in my Subtank Mini it says 0.15 ohm on the coil. But it actually reads between 0.11-0.19 on my mod (obviously I'm not talking about when its hot, all variances are when its cold).

I'm running it at 22.5W with a temp limit of 420F. For the most part its really awesome, much better flavour than a regular kanthal 0.5 ohm OCC.

That said, there are some dodgy things that happen.

1.) Occasionally, the mod will come out of temp control mode, and will fire the coil at 22.5W without any temperature protection. (usually taking the atty off, and putting it back on sorts this) Being able to manually force it to fire in temp control mode, would be pretty sweet.

2.) When you put the atty back on, after refilling, or dealing with dodgy thing number 1, above. It'll ask you if its a new coil, or the same old coil. Logic would tell you to choose the old coil option. But when you do that, it starts behaving like a over protective granny, fires at 10W and below, and after 2-3 hits, it'll start firing at between 1 and 3W. So, not usable.

Instead you have to choose the "New Coil" option every time. Which kinda makes me wonder, if its using the resistance change in the coil as it gets hotter to work out the temperature, when you tell it "New Coil" all bets are off on the temperature control being accurate, right?

That all said, the Vape on it is really good. I'm going to do some experiments building some nickel coils in some RDA's and see if maybe its a issue with the OCC coils, or if its and issue with the mod itself.

Input from anyone else with temperature control mods, would be awesome!

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## n0ugh7_zw

*Update 002*
Built a nickel coil in my Lemo 2 28AWG Nickel 200 (I lost count after 12 wraps ) 3.5mm ID worked out to 0.15 ohms. so according to Steam-Engine its 14.48 wraps.

Running it at 23.5W with the Temp limit set to 380F, during a 3 second pull it only gets up to around 260F. But, the flavour and vapor are really good. so it's kinda wonky, though its performing like a champ, because i put way too much cotton in to the build, and its not giving me any dry hits. I'm using 80/20 juice.

I'm switching back to the Nickel OCC coil in my Subtank Mini. I think I'm starting to get an understanding of this. Paying attention to the numbers, isn't what its about. its about the feel of it.


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## free3dom

Unfortunately with the cloned versions of temp control boards you do have to put up with a lot of crap from them. This is very new technology and even the authentic devices have some quirks which the creators are constantly working on - so you can just imagine how many issues there will be with a 1:1 copy of a circuit board of which the cloners have zero understanding 

Best advice, don't judge a technology by it's clones. 

The authentic devices, in particular the newer DNAs and the YIHI based ones are spectacular and have none (or very few) of the issues you are experiencing. But even then this technology is ever evolving which is why, if you have a choice, opt for one of the YiHi based devices since they are firmware upgradable 

That all said, if the vape is good and you don't get dry hits then obviously it's working...in the same way that a bicycle can get you from point A to point B same as a sports car - but the ride is not quite as smooth

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## Silver

Nice chronicle @n0ugh7_zw 
Interesting to read

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## Rob Fisher

free3dom said:


> Best advice, don't judge a technology by it's clones.



Great advice and right on the button! The SX Mini works like a dream!

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## n0ugh7_zw

@free3dom @Rob Fisher @Silver it's been a long time gents.

To be honest, it really isn't the new technology. Thats what companies who really F***ed the cat would want you to think (Like Evolv). Temperature sensors have been in existence for a long time now. Thats really what is going on when you get down to it. The wattage changing as a result of the resistance changing. is nothing more than values being pulled out of a conversion chart.

When its laid out like that, people who forked out good money to Evolv might be a wee bit tense. So they have no choice but to say "This is mighty cutting edge technology, and its really massively complex and difficult".

That all said. The SX Mini is nice. But its mini, a single 18650 won't keep up with me. The price is also a major turn off. Maybe an IPV4, but i'm not too keen on how it looks. So for now, the clone flask is the best option.

I'd not buy an authentic flask, or any of the authentic western made mods. Buying that stuff, for me at least, is supporting a foolish and greedy mindset, that doesn't have its customers at heart. I'd prefer not to support that.

What looks like the best bet for me, though it pains me to say so (anyone who's paid attention to me, knows I'm not a Joyetech fan) is the eVic VT. Good form factor, lots of flexibility. 5000mAh and 60W, and the best part is that its $100.00.

and for the record. this clone, which is a copy of the small screen DNA40, is a much better stab at being a DNA40, than the thing that Evolv actually tried releasing to the public, initially.

I'm going through this whole thing of putting my impressions and experiences with the clone, specifically because information on them isn't abundant. The price point being what it is, more people are going to use the clone anyway. So hopefully it'll be useful to a wider spectrum of people.

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## free3dom

So in the same way as the microchip which has been around for a few decades means that no new chips which improve on it is cutting edge? Or the internal combustion engine which has been around even longer, and yet somehow they are still finding ways to improve on that design as well 

Technology is ever evolving by those who design, think about, and generally tinker with it - not by those who take it from someone and copy it without any idea of how it works. If there were no authentic devices, there would be no clones - logic 101 

Just because a technology exists does not mean that newer versions of it is not cutting edge - especially when it is being used for an entirely new application such as *vaporising e-liquid* in this case. Reading temperature is just one part of the puzzle.

I'm also curious what you are basing your negative views of the evolv chips on - have you owned any of them and had bad experiences?

Now I'm not trying to bash your views on authentic vs clone here...that's your business. But how can something that was blindly copied be better than the thing it was copied from - the logic just does not hold up 

But to each their own...I was just trying to say that your experiences with a cloned device might not be fully representative of "temperature control" - especially now that there are low cost alternatives (such as the IPV4) widely available (and with much improved software), basically negating the need for cloned devices 

Unfortunately with technology, using older versions makes many observations redundant as they may already have addressed those issues in newer iterations. 

As a review of temperature control in regards to your particular device this information you provide is quite useful though

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## n0ugh7_zw

Its a thermostat. we already had VV/VW devices. The scope of these boards specifications, especially in these applications is way smaller than something like a internal combustion engine.

Why do you assume, they had no idea of how it works? It's not possible to copy something without understanding it, and they're not stupid. I bring you back to the point, that their first outing with this technology is more usable, than those who pioneered it. Granted they are standing on the shoulders of other peoples work. But facts are facts, it works, it doesn't go spastic like early DNA40 boards did.

If the guys who make authentic stuff, were more open minded, there would be far fewer clones. The Chinese companies, are actually not the problem in this equation.

Why am I singling out Evolv? Because, I've read and seen lots of stuff about DNA40 problems, which means they didn't test the stuff properly before releasing it. Which is pretty incompetent.

How do you blindly copy something? That seems kinda hard?

What I meant about this clone being better than the first DNA40 boards released, is that the Chinese, instead of simply copying what was already there. Made improvements to it. It's not an isolated case. Many mech mods, RTA's and RDA's have been cloned and improved by the Chinese (Orchid, Cherry bomber, kayfun, etc...)

People seem to assume that because the Chinese copy stuff, because they're stupid, or are in some way incapable. That just isn't the case. Who invented vaping? Sub-ohm clearomizers? Cheap, safe regulated boxes, with internal hassle free batteries? Who makes the gear cheap enough for it to stand a chance of being adopted as a mainstream thing?

There are strong Chinese companies that don't make clones (UD, Joyetech, eLeaf, Kangertech, Aspire, etc...). The smaller ones have no choice but to make clones, in order to generate enough capital to start making their own authentic stuff (EHPRO, ToBeCo, Infinite, Wotofo, etc...). Besides with the prices real authentic stuff goes for, its like dangling a big mac in front of a starving homeless man. Whats he going to do?

Anyway point taken, I'll bash the west less. 

This is meant to be about good vapor

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## Silver

Now with the clone versus authentic discussion out the way, please continue with your temp control chronicles @n0ugh7_zw !

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## n0ugh7_zw

Going to have a go doing a nickel build in an RDA. Did my Freakshow Mini last night. but even 12 wraps of 26g nickel around a 3.5mm ID was too low for the mod to fire (0.08 ohms). Damned shame, because it was such a pretty coil too.

A useful little side note. A Kuro coiler type thingy, makes it pretty damned easy to make nice tight nickel coils. Wrapping it like on a screw driver is a bit of a pain.

That said... a 3.5mm ID coil with 14 wraps of 26g, is a pretty damned large coil. Going to have to use 28g


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## Silver

n0ugh7_zw said:


> Going to have a go doing a nickel build in an RDA. Did my Freakshow Mini last night. but even 12 wraps of 26g nickel around a 3.5mm ID was too low for the mod to fire (0.08 ohms). Damned shame, because it was such a pretty coil too.
> 
> A useful little side note. A Kuro coiler type thingy, makes it pretty damned easy to make nice tight nickel coils. Wrapping it like on a screw driver is a bit of a pain.
> 
> That said... a 3.5mm ID coil with 14 wraps of 26g, is a pretty damned large coil. Going to have to use 28g



I thought the nickel coils for temp sensing were supposed to be spaced?
Are yours compressed?

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## n0ugh7_zw

Silver said:


> I thought the nickel coils for temp sensing were supposed to be spaced?
> Are yours compressed?



I'm not 100% to be honest. I haven't read anything definitive. I've built compressed and spaced that have both worked. 

I've got a spaced 28g nickel build in my derringer now. Working really well. But by the same token, the build thats working in my Lemo 2 is a 28g compressed coil. In both cases my temp limit is 380F

On the face of it, I think that mods that let you use titanium will be much easier, since the resistance of titanium wire is much higher, so its more like building with Kanthal or Nichrome. I think it may also be stiffer, than nickel. Nickel is really soft, it feels like a strand of copper. 

Ok, I've learnt another trick. You need to make sure that on your first pull, from telling the mod that its a new coil, you pull really hard to make sure that the coil is getting a good amount of air, otherwise it'll throttle the wattage, and it'll skew the temperature reading. 

What I did with the derringer is i popped the top cap off, and blew hard on the build for its first fire. Now its running like a champ.

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## shabbar

Im stuck between a rock and a hard place , theres the pre order of the evic vt and the sx mini , im not too sure which to get . i see the evic uses titanium and nickel where as with the sx uses only nickel ? i stand to be corrected there .

seems like temp limiting / sensing devices are the way forward


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## free3dom

shabbar said:


> Im stuck between a rock and a hard place , theres the pre order of the evic vt and the sx mini , im not too sure which to get . i see the evic uses titanium and nickel where as with the sx uses only nickel ? i stand to be corrected there .
> 
> seems like temp limiting / sensing devices are the way forward



The latest SX *firmware *update adds Ti support...that's the advantage with the YiHi devices, software upgradable 

I'm note sure if this is true for the Evic devices - and TBH I'd wait before jumping on that bandwagon. It's a new and (unproven) temp sensing device - best to wait and see first. The SX on the other hand has proven itself to be one of the best temp sensing devices to date. You can't go wrong with it

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## Andre

free3dom said:


> The latest SX *firmware *update adds Ti support...that's the advantage with the YiHi devices, software upgradable
> 
> I'm note sure if this is true for the Evic devices - and TBH I'd wait before jumping on that bandwagon. It's a new and (unproven) temp sensing device - best to wait and see first. The SX on the other hand has proven itself to be one of the best temp sensing devices to date. You can't go wrong with it


+ 1 on this advice, @shabbar, but bear in mind that the Evic is substantially cheaper.

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## n0ugh7_zw

TBH, i think waiting a month or 2 is your best bet. I think the eVic VT, will turn out to be the iStick 50W of the temperature game. If that turns out to be the case, then I think it'll be a significantly better value product than the SX Mini.

Also the likelihood of the eVic VT having upgradable firmware is pretty high, Joyetech did that kinda thing as far back as the eVic Supreme.

This temperature control, isn't a day and night thing. So you don't need to feel pressured to hop on the gravy train.

That all said, the preliminary impressions on the eVic VT are that its a sold box, that does what it says on the box, no hassles or glitches.

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## free3dom

Andre said:


> + 1 on this advice, @shabbar, but bear in mind that the Evic is substantially cheaper.



That's very true. The SX is quite expensive, and perhaps not the best first temp sensing device - you may not take to it and waste a lot of money in the process 

For cheaper I'd still rather recommend the IPV4 - also running a YiHi board (albeit a slightly different one), and also software upgradable

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## n0ugh7_zw

Just keep in mind that the build quality on the IPV4 is a bit sketchy. It's durable and all, it just looks a bit shabby, especially on the top of the device and along the seams.


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## Yusuf Cape Vaper

n0ugh7_zw said:


> Just keep in mind that the build quality on the IPV4 is a bit sketchy. It's durable and all, it just looks a bit shabby, especially on the top of the device and along the seams.


The IPv4 is actually really solid. I love mine. I don't think it's sketchy or anything 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Yiannaki

n0ugh7_zw said:


> Just keep in mind that the build quality on the IPV4 is a bit sketchy. It's durable and all, it just looks a bit shabby, especially on the top of the device and along the seams.


Based off videos etc I also didn't think it seemed very well built. 

Since then I have held and used @Paulie's and I like it a lot. I would say build quality is on par with or slightly better than something like a sig 100 which was by no means shabby.

My only issue ... the damn screen!

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## shabbar

Yiannaki said:


> Based off videos etc I also didn't think it seemed very well built.
> 
> Since then I have held and used @Paulie's and I like it a lot. I would say build quality is on par with or slightly better than something like a sig 100 which was by no means shabby.
> 
> My only issue ... the damn screen!




Whats the fault on the screen?


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## n0ugh7_zw

it has a mirror coating, that makes it pretty hard to see.


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## n0ugh7_zw

This is a busurdo video, on the invader mini, the board in it behaves identically to my flask clone. 



Short version, its actually pretty good.

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## Mario

great post @n0ugh7_zw 
Ive been using the Vapeshake rdna40 for almost 2 months and building at 0.12ohms, 28g Pure Nickel, 6 wraps @ 460F/30W using it on the Delta II ,Subtank Mini and for me it seems the flavor is so much better than Kanthal (totally subjective).

I dont think i will go back to Kanthal .....lol

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## free3dom

n0ugh7_zw said:


> This is a busurdo video, on the invader mini, the board in it behaves identically to my flask clone.
> 
> 
> 
> Short version, its actually pretty good.




That's great news!

I apologize for sidetracking your thread - my only intention was to inform you that some of the issues you were having are no longer issues on the newer updated devices. This stuff is improving on an almost daily basis, and the future is looking very "controlled" 

In the end it does not matter what you use as long as you are enjoying the experience...and temp control is a whole new world for all of us

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## n0ugh7_zw

@Mario the flavour does seem cleaner off of nickel. Though... I wonder how much that has to do with the nickel and how much it has to do with the temperature limiting? Actually pretty keen to get a device that can do titanium coils too.

@free3dom no harm, no foul man  It's all about getting the best vape possible.

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## n0ugh7_zw

Barring anything earth-shatteringly bad being said about it. I think my next mod will be a eVic VT, seems like the most cost effective route. 

VaporTekUSA has a pre order for eVic VT kits for $72.99 

It's got
eVic VT
Silicone Skin
Charger
eGo One Mega (4ml)
Nickel and Titanium heads 


And here are the specs for the eVic VT

Size: *47 *25.5 *85.6mm*
Battery capacity: *5000mAh*
Output mode: *VT-Ti/VT-Ni/VW mode*
Output wattage: *1-60W*
Resistance range:* 0.05 - 1.0ohm for VT mode
0.15 - 3.5ohm for VW mode*
Temperature range: *100 - 315℃ / 200 - 600℉
*
Here's a link http://www.vaportekusa.com/joyetech-evic-vt-vw-full-kit-5000mah/

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## free3dom

n0ugh7_zw said:


> @Mario the flavour does seem cleaner off of nickel. Though... I wonder how much that has to do with the nickel and how much it has to do with the temperature limiting? Actually pretty keen to get a device that can do titanium coils too.
> 
> @free3dom no harm, no foul man  It's all about getting the best vape possible.



I do believe that it has a lot to do with the way that power is applied - I'm sure you've experienced how different flavours taste different at various power levels, and what seems to be happening when the temp control kicks in and adjusts the power levels down is that you get the lower and the higher power "flavour performance" in a single draw. That's my theory anyways 

Also looking forward to vaping on a titanium coil - even if it's only to say I'm vaping on a titanium coil 



n0ugh7_zw said:


> Barring anything earth-shatteringly bad being said about it. I think my next mod will be a eVic VT, seems like the most cost effective route.



I'm really looking forward to seeing how this device performs with temp control - I do hope it turns out great. Regardless, anything with that much battery power is getting my vote already 

And then there's still the VIR to look forward to

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## n0ugh7_zw

free3dom said:


> I do believe that it has a lot to do with the way that power is applied - I'm sure you've experienced how different flavours taste different at various power levels, and what seems to be happening when the temp control kicks in and adjusts the power levels down is that you get the lower and the higher power "flavour performance" in a single draw. That's my theory anyways
> 
> Also looking forward to vaping on a titanium coil - even if it's only to say I'm vaping on a titanium coil
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really looking forward to seeing how this device performs with temp control - I do hope it turns out great. Regardless, anything with that much battery power is getting my vote already
> 
> And then there's still the VIR to look forward to



VIR looks cool, but kinda pricey for me.

*Edit* on second look, something seems screwy with that VIR 0.45 - 2.2 ohm range? That can't possibly be with nickel, maybe its with titanium. Also it only pushes 35W maximum.

I think it has got something to do with how the powers applied. But there is also something else going on I think.

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## n0ugh7_zw

Just watching a video about twisting kanthal and nickel together... to early to tell if the guys talking out his ass...

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## n0ugh7_zw

appears to work, going to try it now...


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## n0ugh7_zw

Nope, one mother of a burnt hit later. DON'T DO THAT....

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## PrenessaM

n0ugh7_zw said:


> @Mario the flavour does seem cleaner off of nickel. Though... I wonder how much that has to do with the nickel and how much it has to do with the temperature limiting? Actually pretty keen to get a device that can do titanium coils too.
> 
> @free3dom no harm, no foul man  It's all about getting the best vape possible.




Perhaps easiest way is to use a nickel build on a non temp controlled device and compare it's to as close as possible build using kanthal.

The problem is getting 2 identical builds would be based either on resistance or number of wraps as those 2 aren't identical. 

*the vape on a nickel build on a non temp mod is crisper, subtle notes are a lot more defined and it's definitely a flavor "enhancer" of sorts. Clouds seems a bit thinner but it was at a low wattage (35w)

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## n0ugh7_zw

eish wrapping a 0.20ohm coil, would be pretty hectic


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## free3dom

n0ugh7_zw said:


> Nope, one mother of a burnt hit later. DON'T DO THAT....



Thanks for taking one for the team


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## n0ugh7_zw

free3dom said:


> Thanks for taking one for the team



its possible the coil shorted on the barrel, was a 16 wrap coil with a 3.5mm ID

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## n0ugh7_zw

in a freakshow mini lol


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## Silver

PrenessaM said:


> Perhaps easiest way is to use a nickel build on a non temp controlled device and compare it's to as close as possible build using kanthal.
> 
> The problem is getting 2 identical builds would be based either on resistance or number of wraps as those 2 aren't identical.
> 
> *the vape on a nickel build on a non temp mod is crisper, subtle notes are a lot more defined and it's definitely a flavor "enhancer" of sorts. Clouds seems a bit thinner but it was at a low wattage (35w)



Very interesting @PrenessaM 
So I wonder how much of the difference on temp control mods comes from the temp control versus the nickel


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## free3dom

n0ugh7_zw said:


> its possible the coil shorted on the barrel, was a 16 wrap coil with a 3.5mm ID





n0ugh7_zw said:


> in a freakshow mini lol



Holy crap...that requires a picture


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## n0ugh7_zw

Turned out to be 13 wraps 




Not the greatest pic. The wire that looks kinda flakey, is the kanthal.

No singe marks anywhere in the barrel... I think maybe one of the legs got super hot? I dunno, its an ugly build I'm going to pull it out.

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## n0ugh7_zw

To be honest, I'm seeing Temperature Control being more a thing for tanks and inaccessible RDA's (Like the Freakshow Mini).

For bigger 3 piece drippers, you can taste just before you're going to get a dry hit, so you can avoid actually getting one. 

Building with Titanium will probably change my mind though, resistance is more like Kanthal, so you can use less wraps of thicker wire.

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## Silver

Great photos @n0ugh7_zw

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## n0ugh7_zw

On a side note, with my little "New Coil" trick, the Subtank Mini with the Nickel OCC coil, is giving me insanely great flavour. got it at 25W with a temp limit of 380F


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## n0ugh7_zw

Ok, just rebuilt the Freakshow Mini again. With plain 28G nickel. I've discovered why most people build spaced coils. With compressed coils, you need to wick the legs, and your wicking must be 100%, any issues and you'll get hotspots that somehow evade the mods ability to detect them.

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## free3dom

Great pictures, that looks pretty sweet...a pity it didn't work out that well 

It does seem that spaced coils are the standard for nickel, and it's good to have a rough idea why


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## shaunnadan

Silver said:


> Very interesting @PrenessaM
> So I wonder how much of the difference on temp control mods comes from the temp control versus the nickel



The nickel tends to give a much cleaner Flavour . There are notes in juices that I never got using kanthal especially at sub ohm resistance. 

So I did a build on the derringer on the reo and got exceptional Flavour. Also found that the Vape wasn't as hot as kanthal which is a huge plus for the derringer with the drip tip being so short .

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## n0ugh7_zw

*Right! Next update.*
I had a 0.11 ohm build in my Subtank mini, with a tiny 1.5mm ID. It worked for a week with no real issue. But I've learnt some things.

With this flask clone, its minimum resistance is 0.10 ohms for a temp build, if you build too close to that, it'll behave strangely, I actually got burnt hits a couple of times. Not badly burnt, but definitely burnt.

I've done a new build in it, the old one was gunky and the wick was slightly burnt.

I used a 3.2mm ID and did 8 or 9 wraps. it worked out to 0.18 ohms.

I'm vaping max VG juice in my Subtank Mini with an inept amount of cotton (way too much, I was lazy), and its vaping beautifully. Just chain vaped like 20-25 hits, each one was perfect. Running it at 24W with a temp limit of 400F.

This temp control stuff is awesome!

_On a side note, with the flavour thing. I listened to a radio show where Dr. Fassalinos was talking about how bad it is to pulse coils. So I did a spaced build on my mutation with kanthal, without any pulsing. The flavour is now damned close to the nickel wire._

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## Andre

n0ugh7_zw said:


> _On a side note, with the flavour thing. I listened to a radio show where Dr. Fassalinos was talking about how bad it is to pulse coils. So I did a spaced build on my mutation with kanthal, without any pulsing. The flavour is now damned close to the nickel wire._


Quite the debate on ECF about that. Bottom line, you HAVE to fire Kanthal for the protective layer. Seems Dr F is venturing into territory not within his expertise.


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## n0ugh7_zw

Andre said:


> Quite the debate on ECF about that. Bottom line, you HAVE to fire Kanthal for the protective layer. Seems Dr F is venturing into territory not within his expertise.



Hmmm, I dunno what he said seemed pretty logical. I've been using an un-pre-fired coil for a week now, so far with no ill effects.

I used to subscribe to the protective oxidation layer theory too. But what he said just seemed more logical.

Heating the wire up to the point of it glowing, changes the structure of it. Who's to say that the oxidation layer doesn't in some way infiltrate the vapor? 

Bottom line, I think we need testing on wire, so that we know for certain one way or the other.


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## Silver

Andre said:


> Quite the debate on ECF about that. Bottom line, you HAVE to fire Kanthal for the protective layer. Seems Dr F is venturing into territory not within his expertise.



This is interesting @Andre - i havent checked it out on ECF or listened to Dr Fasalinos but @devdev briefly told me about it this weekend

So is it that the pulsing leaves toxins on the wire, which you then may inhale later after wicking? Or is it that the toxins are just released into the air while pulsing?


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## Andre

n0ugh7_zw said:


> Hmmm, I dunno what he said seemed pretty logical. I've been using an un-pre-fired coil for a week now, so far with no ill effects.
> 
> I used to subscribe to the protective oxidation layer theory too. But what he said just seemed more logical.
> 
> Heating the wire up to the point of it glowing, changes the structure of it. Who's to say that the oxidation layer doesn't in some way infiltrate the vapor?
> 
> Bottom line, I think we need testing on wire, so that we know for certain one way or the other.


All that testing has been done as far as I know. Here is some more logic should you care to read through it all: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/the-end-of-microcoils.675754/

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## Andre

Silver said:


> This is interesting @Andre - i havent checked it out on ECF or listened to Dr Fasalinos but @devdev briefly told me about it this weekend
> 
> So is it that the pulsing leaves toxins on the wire, which you then may inhale later after wicking? Or is it that the toxins are just released into the air while pulsing?


See link in my post above, @Silver.

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## n0ugh7_zw

Andre said:


> All that testing has been done as far as I know. Here is some more logic should you care to read through it all: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/the-end-of-microcoils.675754/



Going through it now.

Reactions: Like 1


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## n0ugh7_zw

hmmm, guess compressed coils aren't all that bad... :/

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver

Andre said:


> See link in my post above, @Silver.



Started reading the first page or two and saw SuperXDrifter, so I thought i was in Reosmods lol
But then I realised there were 39 pages!
In just a few days. Eek
Havent gone through it all but surely very interesting...
@Andre, have you gone through it all by any chance? If so, was there anything definitive that came out of the discussions?


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## Andre

Silver said:


> Started reading the first page or two and saw SuperXDrifter, so I thought i was in Reosmods lol
> But then I realised there were 39 pages!
> In just a few days. Eek
> Havent gone through it all but surely very interesting...
> @Andre, have you gone through it all by any chance? If so, was there anything definitive that came out of the discussions?


This ECF post towards the end probably sums it up well:

_I've read through this whole thread in the last week or so and there's been a lot of food for thought here. Before this thread, I've never given much thought about the coils I build, more interested in getting them functional and semi long lasting. It's never really crossed my mind to care why or how they work, just that they do. 

There have been a few people that really seem like they know what they are talking about, but this is the internet, we are all semi anonymous so I can't really say that they are the experts that they seem to be, but they have also given links to data sheets that do back up what they are saying. So for me, I will give them the benefit of doubt, and what they are saying makes sense to me especially with the data sheets backing it up. 

When I first started rebuilding my coils I had a lot of trouble with consistency. I only use a couple of devices and they both use the same coils. Reading posts / tutorials from MacTechVpr is how I really learned the mechanics of consistent coils, now 9 out of 10 coils I build work the first time, that 10th coil is probably more to blame on my 60 year old eyes and hands than on technique. 

The method I use for cleaning really hasn't changed from the way I cleaned CE/2 carts, I wash with hot water, dry burn, and if it's stubborn, re-wash with pure grain alcohol and dry burn again. Now the only real difference is if the gunk is stubborn, I rip out the coil and rebuild. 

With the information that has been posted here by Magaro, Allen Traveler, Druckle, and others I am going to pay a bit more attention on how hot the coils get when I dry burn, but I'm not going to stop dry burning. I'm also going to continue pulsing my coils before I wick them as the meter only tells me so much about the quality of the coil, the visual look for hot spots tells me so much more.

This thread has been very educational for me and I thank everyone that has participated._

Reactions: Like 4 | Thanks 1


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## Andre

And this ECF post maybe, @Silver:

_None of the elements in Kanthal A1 have a significant vapor pressure at the temperatures a coil reaches during vaping. The thin aluminum oxide scale that forms on heating is very effective at protecting the coil from further oxidation, ionic diffusion and chemical leaching. Torturing a coil with extended white-hot burns will inevitably consume some of the aluminum and chromium in the alloy, and change the nature of the surface. Don't do it. But lightly oxidizing your Kanthal coil is probably a good idea. It serves to help seal the surface of the coil, trapping and protecting the iron, aluminum and chromium beneath it.

I, too, appreciate what Dr. Farsalinos has done for the vaping community. But I think he may not have all the facts straight in this case. His mention of "metal molecules" bothers me. Metal alloys are not made up of molecules. They are crystalline arrangements, ordered and/or disordered, of metal atoms. Heating can cause many changes in an alloy's microstructure, but you are not "basically destroying the bonds between the metal molecules", because they don't exist.

Absolutely, research is needed to determine the safest alloys for vape coils and their proper care and feeding. But common sense dictates, at least to me, that a properly oxidized Kanthal coil is probably safer than an unoxidized one._

Reactions: Like 2 | Thanks 1


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## Silver

Andre said:


> And this ECF post maybe, @Silver:
> 
> _None of the elements in Kanthal A1 have a significant vapor pressure at the temperatures a coil reaches during vaping. The thin aluminum oxide scale that forms on heating is very effective at protecting the coil from further oxidation, ionic diffusion and chemical leaching. Torturing a coil with extended white-hot burns will inevitably consume some of the aluminum and chromium in the alloy, and change the nature of the surface. Don't do it. But lightly oxidizing your Kanthal coil is probably a good idea. It serves to help seal the surface of the coil, trapping and protecting the iron, aluminum and chromium beneath it.
> 
> I, too, appreciate what Dr. Farsalinos has done for the vaping community. But I think he may not have all the facts straight in this case. His mention of "metal molecules" bothers me. Metal alloys are not made up of molecules. They are crystalline arrangements, ordered and/or disordered, of metal atoms. Heating can cause many changes in an alloy's microstructure, but you are not "basically destroying the bonds between the metal molecules", because they don't exist.
> 
> Absolutely, research is needed to determine the safest alloys for vape coils and their proper care and feeding. But common sense dictates, at least to me, that a properly oxidized Kanthal coil is probably safer than an unoxidized one._



Thanks @Andre

I think part of the problem with this whole Dr F. "Dry burn scare" is that he is trusted by many and that in that interview he just said the molecular structure of the metal breaks down but he didnt go into much more detail. 

I would be surprised if he doesnt follow up on this and go into more detail on it or suggest that more research needs to be done. 

I was talking to @Yiannaki this weekend briefly about this and we wondered if the negative of not being able to dry burn nickel temperature control coils may turn out to be a good thing...


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## n0ugh7_zw

Silver said:


> Thanks @Andre
> I was talking to @Yiannaki this weekend briefly about this and we wondered if the negative of not being able to dry burn nickel temperature control coils may turn out to be a good thing...



you can dry burn nickel... you just need to be super gentle, getting the atty warm, then sticking it on the mod whilst its hot, and telling it, its a new coil, will skew the temp readings enough for you to get it to glow. Wouldn't go past about 15W with 28g nickel, and very, very short bursts.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Silver

n0ugh7_zw said:


> you can dry burn nickel... you just need to be super gentle



Sorry, you are right

What we were saying was that the very low ohm nickel builds are usually not able to be fired on normal power mode or in other regulated mods because they are too low in resistance 

And firing them in temperature mode as I understand it doesnt make them glow red as we would normally do with Kanthal because the temp is limited 

I am of course not talking here from any point of experience whatsoever @n0ugh7_zw  
Just very interested in getting into temp control but havent yet taken the plunge

Reactions: Like 1


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## n0ugh7_zw

Silver said:


> Sorry, you are right
> I am of course not talking here from any point of experience whatsoever @n0ugh7_zw
> Just very interested in getting into temp control but havent yet taken the plunge



all good  Sorry i've developed a bad habit of editing posts extensively after people have read them (unintentionally)

But ye, you just need to bulls*** the chip


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## Andre

Silver said:


> Thanks @Andre
> 
> I think part of the problem with this whole Dr F. "Dry burn scare" is that he is trusted by many and that in that interview he just said the molecular structure of the metal breaks down but he didnt go into much more detail.
> 
> I would be surprised if he doesnt follow up on this and go into more detail on it or suggest that more research needs to be done.
> 
> I was talking to @Yiannaki this weekend briefly about this and we wondered if the negative of not being able to dry burn nickel temperature control coils may turn out to be a good thing...


I have said many a times that the high wattage/high heat phenomenon is contra the science. Temperature control imo brings balance. But for your trouble all you get is no dry hits (which is a very good thing) and, thus, a nice constant vape. If one is not a very low ohm or very high wattage vaper and have your wicking (if appropriate) down pat, I see no real need for temperature control. With my bottom fed devices I never experience dry hits and do not need very low resistance/high wattage.
The data on Kanthal A1 at this stage is far more comprehensive than on Nickel and Titanium as far as I could make out. Some do argue that Titanium is the best. At least it seems to be easier to work with than Nickel.
Off course, non of the above will prevent us, myself included, from trying those type of devices. For me, however, the durability and simplicity of mechs with the convenience of bottom feeding still fulfill all my vaping needs and more.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## kev mac

n0ugh7_zw said:


> Going to have a go doing a nickel build in an RDA. Did my Freakshow Mini last night. but even 12 wraps of 26g nickel around a 3.5mm ID was too low for the mod to fire (0.08 ohms). Damned shame, because it was such a pretty coil too.
> 
> A useful little side note. A Kuro coiler type thingy, makes it pretty damned easy to make nice tight nickel coils. Wrapping it like on a screw driver is a bit of a pain.
> 
> That said... a 3.5mm ID coil with 14 wraps of 26g, is a pretty damned large coil. Going to have to use 28g


I've had luck using twisted 28g kanth. And nick. 7 wraps if I remember correctly .


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## kev mac

n0ugh7_zw said:


> Just watching a video about twisting kanthal and nickel together... to early to tell if the guys talking out his ass...


Been there, done that and now it's all I use on my ipv4!


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## kev mac

n0ugh7_zw said:


> Nope, one mother of a burnt hit later. DON'T DO THAT....


Don't give up on the twist mix my friend, I'm far from a coil master but imo I get better flavor from a 28g combo w/7 wraps on a 3mm rod at 0.27ohms .If you hit it right I think you'll agree. Good luck!

Reactions: Like 1


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## n0ugh7_zw

kev mac said:


> Don't give up on the twist mix my friend, I'm far from a coil master but imo I get better flavor from a 28g combo w/7 wraps on a 3mm rod at 0.27ohms .If you hit it right I think you'll agree. Good luck!




I'm done with niickel. I'm allergic to the stuff.


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## SAVapeGear

n0ugh7_zw said:


> I'm done with niickel. I'm allergic to the stuff.


How do you know when you are allergic to nickel?


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## kev mac

CyberVape said:


> How do you know when you are allergic to nickel?


Ask Johan I've read his comments on this somewhere on the forum.


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## n0ugh7_zw

well, i was getting head aches, and having stomach problems. They stopped as soon as i stopped using the nickel. Might be coincidence, might not. But tbh nickel is a PITA, will revisit temp control when i have some titanium wire to play with.


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## kev mac

n0ugh7_zw said:


> I'm done with niickel. I'm allergic to the stuff.


Sorry to hear it.will or have you tried TI?


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## n0ugh7_zw

kev mac said:


> Sorry to hear it.will or have you tried TI?



I'm very keen for Ti, but getting it here where I live is a bit of a mission. So I'm having to wait for a vendor that has easy shipping options to get it in stock. I did use the Ti coil on the eGo Mega that came with my eVic VT, and that was pretty good.


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## kev mac

n0ugh7_zw said:


> I'm very keen for Ti, but getting it here where I live is a bit of a mission. So I'm having to wait for a vendor that has easy shipping options to get it in stock. I did use the Ti coil on the eGo Mega that came with my eVic VT, and that was pretty good.


Do you have access to eBay ?That's where I'll get it.


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## n0ugh7_zw

kev mac said:


> Do you have access to eBay ?That's where I'll get it.



PayPal is a major headache here. Sanctions and all  (they didn't get the memo about them being targeted sanctions)

It leaves the list of suppliers pretty slim.

I've placed an order with Evolution Vaping in the UK, if that pans out, then it'll be a matter of waiting till the get Ti.

In the states, pretty much all the vendors that take payment from regular credit cards don't want to ship to Zimbabwe by post (DHL, FedEx, etc... are mad expensive).

Only US store that I've come across so far that plays nice is VapeJoose.


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## kev mac

n0ugh7_zw said:


> PayPal is a major headache here. Sanctions and all  (they didn't get the memo about them being targeted sanctions)


Sucks bro',I get some deals on it.I could send some in a letter,a few feet.I'd gladly send you a roll if the post to S.A. weren't so exorbitant as I found out sending a P.I.F. starter kit, it'd be twice the worth of the wire

Reactions: Agree 1


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## n0ugh7_zw

ye shipping is pretty hectic. this UK vendor seems to do economical shipping, about $6.00 to ship and RDA from the UK to here.


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## Average vapor Joe

n0ugh7_zw said:


> well, i was getting head aches, and having stomach problems. They stopped as soon as i stopped using the nickel. Might be coincidence, might not. But tbh nickel is a PITA, will revisit temp control when i have some titanium wire to play with.


Maybe go check with your GP and see if you are allergic to nickel


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