# DIY - Tips and Tricks To get Nicotine Smooth?



## Dietz (4/6/18)

I am sure there are threads on this but still no definitive answer, so lets ask it again.

Is there anyone here who can tell us why a 3mg nic commercial juice is barely felt in the throat, but a 3mg DIY joose kicks you to the floor?

Ive tried the following nic and prefere them in this order:
(BLCK) Gold Nic - 48mg (consistent no overly pepper taste and you need less in your recipe compared to the 36mg)
Clyrolinx nic - 36mg (Still testing but close to above)
Skrawny Gecko Whte label nic - 36mg (No issues but can be peppery)
Prime Nic - 36mg (Not consistent, out of three bottle I bought they were not one the same, Very peppery and too strong)

*EDIT:* (for @Raindance) I also tested this with the mixing and speeding variables. Most of what Im referring to here have been (Pain stakingly) hand shaken once a day and steepped for between 1 week to a month with minimal difference to the Nic harshness at higher content. I only recently started mixing with a magnetic stirrer and I am still testing some variables (Heat stirring, Mixing with the stirrer in direct sunlight)

I found that If I add more than 1.8mg to my mixes then it is too harsh to vape. But the problem I have is sometimes It feels like Ive been chukking like Riptrippers but am not getting the nic hit I need for the cravings.

I have yet to try this, but heard that some vendors premix the VG/PG and nic and pre steep that before finally adding flavors and shipping juices. I cannot confirm this as its hearsay, Has anyone tried this?

Something else I heard was that vendors import some super secret special nic that only vendors can get, But I call BS on that! People are too hungry for money to only sell to a select few.

*What are you doing to get the nice nic hit without tasting only nic?*

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## Faiyaz Cheulkar (4/6/18)

I used to think the same, the below thread might give u some insight
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/diy-nicotine-potency.t47726/

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## Raindance (4/6/18)

Just looking for a common denominator. Do all those experiencing nic tastes use electronic stirrers to speed up steeping. Would actually not want to limit the question to this option only. Rather do those experiencing this use steeping methods that may degrade the nic?

Regards

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## Faiyaz Cheulkar (4/6/18)

Unless we design an equipment to extract nic from a bottle of juice and measure it, it is not possible to understand what makes commercial juices smoother. 
The manufacturer might claim 3mg but who certifies this ?

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## Dietz (4/6/18)

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> I used to think the same, the below thread might give u some insight
> https://www.ecigssa.co.za/diy-nicotine-potency.t47726/


Thanks @Faiyaz Cheulkar, I just checked that thread and there is no definitive answer either.

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## Dietz (4/6/18)

Raindance said:


> Just looking for a common denominator. Do all those experiencing nic tastes use electronic stirrers to speed up steeping. Would actually not want to limit the question to this option only. Rather do those experiencing this use steeping methods that may degrade the nic?
> 
> Regards


Ive updated the OP on this one including the magnetic stirrer mixing.

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## Dietz (4/6/18)

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> Unless we design an equipment to extract nic from a bottle of juice and measure it, it is not possible to understand what makes commercial juices smoother.
> The manufacturer might claim 3mg but who certifies this ?


I dont think its that difficult.
We would need to buy a commercial 3mg and also mix up a 3mg DIY joose. that would then be taken to a lab to test the nicotine content only.

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## Bulldog (4/6/18)

On my DIY journey I have followed @RichJB to the T. If he says jump I ask how high . Hence I only steep naturally using time and definitely got the unpleasant throat hit when I was mixing with Scrawny Gecko @3mg. Since dropping to 1.5mg smooth as a babies bum.

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## Cornelius (4/6/18)

Bulldog said:


> On my DIY journey I have followed @RichJB to the T. If he says jump I ask how high . Hence I only steep naturally using time and definitely got the unpleasant throat hit when I was mixing with Scrawny Gecko @3mg. Since dropping to 1.5mg smooth as a babies bum.



I agree, exactly the same. However it is worse with Prime nic. Never tried Gold nic.
I think @Room Fogger once told me that the Vaperite Nic works great.

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## Faiyaz Cheulkar (4/6/18)

Dietz said:


> I dont think its that difficult.
> We would need to buy a commercial 3mg and also mix up a 3mg DIY joose. that would then be taken to a lab to test the nicotine content only.



for tobacco there are tests that I know of, dont know if they have designed any tests for extracting nicotine from e-juices. If there is I am really excited as this will solve the mystery once and for all.

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## Humbolt (4/6/18)

I use Prime Nic 36mg and mix at 3mg and now 2mg, and I don't have this problem

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## Dietz (4/6/18)

Bulldog said:


> On my DIY journey I have followed @RichJB to the T. If he says jump I ask how high . Hence I only steep naturally using time and definitely got the unpleasant throat hit when I was mixing with Scrawny Gecko @3mg. Since dropping to 1.5mg smooth as a babies bum.


I hear you on dropping the nic, thats why I vape mine at 1.8mg, thats perfect for me FLAVOR wise, but it does not suffice for the Nic craving, i end up vaping half a tank to get what I need.
If it was 3 mg It would have worked in 4 puffs

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## RichJB (4/6/18)

I can't say I've ever suffered throat hit from anything. People complain about peach flavours giving them razors to the throat and they're all fine to me. I don't have a Concrete palate but it seems I do have a concrete throat. I suppose 37 years of smoking will do that to ya. 

I have heard from sources I trust that nicotine batches vary quite widely in terms of potency. You can buy one bottle and it's fine, the next bottle of the same brand is much more potent and dials up throat hit substantially. And that's not subjective, it's from people doing actual chemical testing on nic to determine its potency.

I hear you on the nic satisfaction level, @Dietz. I used to mix at 3mg and dialed it down to 2mg. It might have reduced the harshness, I wouldn't know. But it does give less of a nic hit too. I don't mind that as I'm trying to wean myself off nic dependence. I was at a party on Sat night and took my squonker along. While I was standing outside where all the smokers/vapers were, I was puffing constantly. Then I engaged a friend in chat and we sat inside. I was pleasantly surprised that, after 90 minutes inside, I hadn't taken a puff and wasn't feeling the need to. For me, vaping is a mechanical routine and automatic reaction. Regardless of nic level, I'll vape if I'm in a situation where I can. By not taking my vape when I go out for a short while (shopping, etc) and by consciously setting aside certain activities (like watching a movie on TV) where I won't vape, I'm hoping to acclimatise to a point where 2mg nic feels like a lot and I'll be ready to drop to 1.5mg.

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## Raindance (4/6/18)

RichJB said:


> I can't say I've ever suffered throat hit from anything. People complain about peach flavours giving them razors to the throat and they're all fine to me. I don't have a Concrete palate but it seems I do have a concrete throat. I suppose 37 years of smoking will do that to ya.
> 
> I have heard from sources I trust that nicotine batches vary quite widely in terms of potency. You can buy one bottle and it's fine, the next bottle of the same brand is much more potent and dials up throat hit substantially. And that's not subjective, it's from people doing actual chemical testing on nic to determine its potency.
> 
> I hear you on the nic satisfaction level, @Dietz. I used to mix at 3mg and dialed it down to 2mg. It might have reduced the harshness, I wouldn't know. But it does give less of a nic hit too. I don't mind that as I'm trying to wean myself off nic dependence. I was at a party on Sat night and took my squonker along. While I was standing outside where all the smokers/vapers were, I was puffing constantly. Then I engaged a friend in chat and we sat inside. I was pleasantly surprised that, after 90 minutes inside, I hadn't taken a puff and wasn't feeling the need to. For me, vaping is a mechanical routine and automatic reaction. Regardless of nic level, I'll vape if I'm in a situation where I can. By not taking my vape when I go out for a short while (shopping, etc) and by consciously setting aside certain activities (like watching a movie on TV) where I won't vape, I'm hoping to acclimatise to a point where 2mg nic feels like a lot and I'll be ready to drop to 1.5mg.



Similar to the above and having come from eight mg nic to the current two over the past thirty months, I also never tasted nic or suffered throat hit from it. I get mild throat hit from vapor that is too dense due to incorrect airflow, and especially harsh ones on MTL devices. Strangely, seems the same happens with too much airflow on MTL. The latter could also be a case of too low Watts. I think vapor particle size differs with temperature resulting in different throat reactions to it.

I have only ever used SkyBlue and for the past two years Clyrolinx nic so can not comment on differences between brands. Quite plausible that some resellers do not shake their hundred gallon drums properly before decanting into smaller consumer bottles. 

Regards

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## Alex (4/6/18)

Interesting hearing about you guys getting a throat hit on 3mg, to me anything under 6 feels like fresh air. However anything with too much Koolada gives me the worst throat irritation ever (extreme bouts of coughing). I guess we all have different reactions to various chemicals.

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## Silver (4/6/18)

Alex said:


> Interesting hearing about you guys getting a throat hit on 3mg, to me anything under 6 feels like fresh air. However anything with too much Koolada gives me the worst throat irritation ever (extreme bouts of coughing). I guess we all have different reactions to various chemicals.



Agreed @Alex
Except for me, anything under 9mg feels like air
Then again I am vaping at lower power usually

by the way I get the same irritation from Koolada. It's not for me.

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## Adephi (4/6/18)

Silver said:


> I get the same irritation from Koolada.



I still don't get any throat hit from koolada. But WS-23 gives me a harsh tingle. And I have tried 2 brands.

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## Dietz (4/6/18)

I had a very interesting conversation with @Raindance on the way home today and he said something that just might be what Im looking for. The juicemakers who are established surely dont use the normal nic that we use in terms of nic strength, they are using a higher nic. and I remembered a while back that someone somewhere mentioned to me that vendors have access to 100mg Nicotine.

So now I have two theories:
1. they are premixing the VG/PG with nic and letting that steep until the joose is actually made by adding the concentrates of the recipe to the per-steeped "Premix" containing everything but the concentrate. Then that probably gets steeped a certain amount of time too. At least thats what I think and will give this a test too.
2. The joosemakers have access to a Much higher nicotine like 100mg or pure nic (I dont know, Im no scientist), which means that they are adding a fraction of the nic compared to mixing with 36mg?

Now I am hoping by tagging @Oupa , he would be able to tell us which one is closer to the right answer?
C'mon, tell us the secret to a nice smooth nic? or is it all just in our imaginations?

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## RainstormZA (4/6/18)

@Dietz I have this issue where compared to my diy juices , for some reason commercial juices have a much higher flavour content where mine has less. 

The higher flavour content tends to make me cough so bad. That kinda puts me off buying commercial juices. The only two places that I've not had an issue is VapeAfrica and Vape King. VapeAfrica has this most awesome strawberry glazed donut juice - was quite sweet though. Even the nic at 3mg was perfect.

I agree, I tend to puff more with less nic but as Rich pointed out, at some time sooner or later, one would need to wean off nic dependency and I have no issue vaping 0mg juices at times. I still have "some" nic in other juices to make up for that.

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## Dietz (4/6/18)

RainstormZA said:


> @Dietz I have this issue where compared to my diy juices , for some reason commercial juices have a much higher flavour content where mine has less.
> 
> The higher flavour content tends to make me cough so bad. That kinda puts me off buying commercial juices. The only two places that I've not had an issue is VapeAfrica and Vape King. VapeAfrica has this most awesome strawberry glazed donut juice - was quite sweet though. Even the nic at 3mg was perfect.
> 
> I agree, I tend to puff more with less nic but as Rich pointed out, at some time sooner or later, one would need to wean off nic dependency and I have no issue vaping 0mg juices at times. I still have "some" nic in other juices to make up for that.


your flav experience is interesting, Ive only heard of one person who felt the same about commercial juice I think his name was Psyclown, he enjoyed the less Explosive juices. He could also not taste any Strawberry of any sort in juices.

Just come to show again that with vaping, Its all subjective 

Another note is I did not think much about VapeAfrica, I bought from them once at N1 city and it was how can I say... "meh", not bad, but not great either, it was basically a single flavor mix. BUT now that you mention it, It was a 3mg juice that I got from them and it was pretty smooth to me? Maybe I shall give them another try.

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## Friep (4/6/18)

Last year at the vapemeet I had a chat with Doug Powell from @Blends Of Distinction he said that the quality of the nic plays a big role and that he mixes vg based nic and pg based nic and uses the mixture in his juice also suggested steeping a premix of vg and pg.

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## Viper_SA (4/6/18)

My maths may not be too great, but if I'm reading this correctly, and one were to steep nic, pg and vg in a preblend, (say at 3mg) then the nic content would come down per volume once flavouring is added therefore one might end up at 2.5%?

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## craigb (4/6/18)

Viper_SA said:


> My maths may not be too great, but if I'm reading this correctly, and one were to steep nic, pg and vg in a preblend, (say at 3mg) then the nic content would come down per volume once flavouring is added therefore one might end up at 2.5%?


If you premix pg/vg/nic, you should know what flavor % you will be adding and create your premix stronger in such a way that the final mix will be your desired strength.

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## RainstormZA (4/6/18)

Surprise surprise .

The one on the right has been steeping for more than a week with 3mg nicotine - it's for a friend.

The one on the left I just put in 3mg nicotine to test this theory.

￼



And it's VG.

Steeping seemed to have changed the colour and I had a few toots. Wasn't too bad. A bit of a tickle but bearable.

Conclusion: the freshly added nic was worse than the one that had steeped for some time. So this definitely makes sense

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## craigb (4/6/18)

RainstormZA said:


> Surprise surprise .
> 
> The one on the right has been steeping for more than a week with 3mg nicotine - it's for a friend.
> 
> ...


The colour change is probably the nic oxidizing.

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## Viper_SA (4/6/18)

craigb said:


> If you premix pg/vg/nic, you should know what flavor % you will be adding and create your premix stronger in such a way that the final mix will be your desired strength.



My point being that if I had a juice line I would not have seperate premixed blends of nic, pg and vg for every flavor. So in theory some juices may end up having a tad more pg than others, and subsequently less nic.

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## RainstormZA (4/6/18)

I am now convinced that the longer you leave your nic to steep, the more it mellows out and gets better like fine wine.

@craigb it's been in a dark box for shipping this week or so. 

So I doubt the vendors even dilute it. Maybe newly made up juices are stronger bec the nic hasn't had a chance to steep, compared to juices that haven't flown off the shelves like hot cakes.

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## craigb (4/6/18)

Viper_SA said:


> My point being that if I had a juice line I would not have seperate premixed blends of nic, pg and vg for every flavor. So in theory some juices may end up having a tad more pg than others, and subsequently less nic.


Im not sure of that... If your professional reputation rested on it? I don't know how likely it is that juice are randomly tested, but if you thought there was a good chance the nic content of your brand could be tested? 

In practice though, I think you're right. Can call it a "margin of error" if audited..

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## Friep (4/6/18)

The premix that @Blends Of Distinction talked about was only pg and vg that had to be steeped but I understand the difficulty of working with that ratio and pg based flavouring each juice would need it's own premix to keep the pg vg ratio constant. But then if you are manufacturing on a big scale each line could have it's own premix with it's own ratio.

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## craigb (4/6/18)

RainstormZA said:


> I am now convinced that the longer you leave your nic to steep, the more it mellows out and gets better like fine wine.
> 
> @craigb it's been in a dark box for shipping this week or so.
> 
> So I doubt the vendors even dilute it. Maybe newly made up juices are stronger bec the nic hasn't had a chance to steep, compared to juices that haven't flown off the shelves like hot cakes.


Oxygen can still make its way in when we are mixing, I also have my doubts as to exactly how airtight these bottles are.

I don't know how much UV and/or oxygen exposure it takes to get the nicotine to discolor. @RichJB, @Andre you guys are some of our more knowledgeable superstars, what's your opinion on what/how much it takes to discolor otherwise clear juice?

Also, I'm under the impression most commercial juices have already undergone a minimum of steeping. Perhaps a question in "who has stock" would get some responses from our master manufacturers.

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## RainstormZA (4/6/18)

@Dietz I think we need to do a swop and taste thing for this to confirm the theories highlighted here and give constructive criticism on how to improve it.

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## RainstormZA (4/6/18)

craigb said:


> Also, I'm under the impression most commercial juices have already undergone a minimum of steeping. Perhaps a question in "who has stock" would get some responses from our master manufacturers.



Good idea! You can do that

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## Viper_SA (4/6/18)

craigb said:


> Oxygen can still make its way in when we are mixing, I also have my doubts as to exactly how airtight these bottles are.
> 
> I don't know how much UV and/or oxygen exposure it takes to get the nicotine to discolor. @RichJB, @Andre you guys are some of our more knowledgeable superstars, what's your opinion on what/how much it takes to discolor otherwise clear juice?
> 
> Also, I'm under the impression most commercial juices have already undergone a minimum of steeping. Perhaps a question in "who has stock" would get some responses from our master manufacturers.



Even if sealed of completely, any polymer (plastic) bottle would still be subjected to permeability factors. Exactly why Coke is always on special somewhere. Coke has a 3 month shelf life in a plastic bottle after that the Co2 starts escaping through the plastic, and therefor oxygen can enter it as well. That's why most bulk containers are still glass. I have found that even just mixing at 2.5mg gets me super smooth vapes, even on shake and vapes. I do believe in preblends of flavourings though as it seems to save time with final product steeping, especially in tobaccos.

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## DougP (4/6/18)

Friep said:


> Last year at the vapemeet I had a chat with Doug Powell from @Blends Of Distinction he said that the quality of the nic plays a big role and that he mixes vg based nic and pg based nic and uses the mixture in his juice also suggested steeping a premix of vg and

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## DougP (4/6/18)

Sorry guys I didn’t realize I couldn’t reply here so have deleted my post 
My apologies

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## craigb (4/6/18)

Blends Of Distinction said:


> Sorry guys I didn’t realize I couldn’t reply here so have deleted my post
> My apologies


Hey @Blends Of Distinction there's a post that may interest you in "who has stock"

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## RichJB (5/6/18)

I'm never sure how much discolouration is the nic and how much is the flavours. I use the same nic for a bunch of juices, some discolour visibly during the steep and others remain almost crystal clear. So obviously flavours play a big role. I've heard that citrus flavours combat discolouration, which seems to have a grain of truth in it. I have mixes containing lemon, grapefruit, pink guava which are still almost clear four months into a steep. Either way, it doesn't bother me much. Some of my fave juices turn a dark brown before I vape them. TFA Bavarian Cream is also at its best once it's aged a bit. 

As for steeping, I have again noticed that the longer the steep, the smoother and better the juice. Again, whether that is down to flavours steeping, nic steeping or some combo of the two is unclear. But it works for me. Wayne's Quik, which I thought was a bit meh initially, is coming into its own now - thirteen weeks into the steep. I'm not sure what steep time Wayne recommends but I bet it ain't 13 weeks.

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## KarlDP (5/6/18)

Bulldog said:


> On my DIY journey I have followed @RichJB to the T. If he says jump I ask how high . Hence I only steep naturally using time and definitely got the unpleasant throat hit when I was mixing with Scrawny Gecko @3mg. Since dropping to 1.5mg smooth as a babies bum.



Jup i also dropped down to 1.5mg on Prime Nic and its wayyyy better. Nice and smooth..

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## Andre (5/6/18)

Dietz said:


> I had a very interesting conversation with @Raindance on the way home today and he said something that just might be what Im looking for. The juicemakers who are established surely dont use the normal nic that we use in terms of nic strength, they are using a higher nic. and I remembered a while back that someone somewhere mentioned to me that vendors have access to 100mg Nicotine.
> 
> So now I have two theories:
> 1. they are premixing the VG/PG with nic and letting that steep until the joose is actually made by adding the concentrates of the recipe to the per-steeped "Premix" containing everything but the concentrate. Then that probably gets steeped a certain amount of time too. At least thats what I think and will give this a test too.
> ...


I use 100 mg nic and have used 36 mg. No difference as far as I could tell. Nic is nic, same amount ends up in your mix. As does the same amount of VG and PG in the end. 

A limited few DIYers believe it is better to have the Nic with VG and PG added, steep first before adding the concentrates. One or two even go as far as staggering the concentrate additions. 

I do use pre-blends of concentrates, which shortens steeping time for the final mix, but no difference between a juice made using a pre-blend and the same juice made the usual way.

Personally, I have never experienced a commercial juice to have less throat hit than my DIY juices of the same nic strength.

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## Room Fogger (5/6/18)

Cornelius said:


> I agree, exactly the same. However it is worse with Prime nic. Never tried Gold nic.
> I think @Room Fogger once told me that the Vaperite Nic works great.


Have never had a problem with nic I got from Vaperite, unsure of who packs it for them but it has been great. Lost 2 batches of testers and bottles of nic obviously with both gold nic and scrawny gecko.

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## RichJB (5/6/18)

I would imagine their nic is from NicVape, seeing as that is the DIY flavour line they imported? Good flavours too, we need another vendor to bring them in now.

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## Faiyaz Cheulkar (7/6/18)

Just took out a bottle of strawberry ripe single flavour 3mg that has been steeping for like 3 months now. It's damm smooth, no discoloration. Don't remember the exact percentage of flavour but it's 70/30. I remember tasting this two days after mixing and it had a harsh throat hit. I am too convinced now like @RainstormZA steeping does make the nic smooth.

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## RainstormZA (7/6/18)

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> Just took out a bottle of strawberry ripe single flavour 3mg that has been steeping for like 3 months now. It's damm smooth, no discoloration. Don't remember the exact percentage of flavour but it's 70/30. I remember tasting this two days after mixing and it had a harsh throat hit. I am too convinced now like @RainstormZA steeping does make the nic smooth.



I'm running a test on 4 flavours as the big bottles have little to no nic in them and I had a bit nic left, enough for 4 x 60ml bottles. Will give feedback after a week. 

However there is a problem with my peppermint one - for some reason , it's causing my lungs to rattle and makes me cough with stuff in my throat and nose. I wonder why as the first batch never did this.

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## Steyn777 (8/6/18)

I made a premix of VG/PG and Nic 2 months ago for my own curiosity to see if it changes the Vape on one of my favourite recipies. It steeped for 4 weeks before I added the flavours and steeped another week afterwards. There was absolutely no difference between this mix and one I mixed like a normally mix. 
I do feel there is a difference between different Brands of Nic and to list them by smoothness, peppery taste, etc I would say Scrawny Gecko and Prime was/is very much the same and also my go to. Gold did not agree with me at all.

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## Steyn777 (8/6/18)

Dietz said:


> The joosemakers have access to a Much higher nicotine like 100mg or pure nic (I dont know, Im no scientist), which means that they are adding a fraction of the nic compared to mixing with 36mg?


Blck vapor sells 100mg nicotine @Dietz, not sure it will make a difference as @Andre stated but for the sake of science (and the fact that I always order a different Nic) I will include this in my next order and see if I find any difference between this and 36/48

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## Timwis (8/6/18)

craigb said:


> Im not sure of that... If your professional reputation rested on it? I don't know how likely it is that juice are randomly tested, but if you thought there was a good chance the nic content of your brand could be tested?
> 
> In practice though, I think you're right. Can call it a "margin of error" if audited..


I don't believe any margin of error would be enough, top e-liquid manufacturers are using precision scales etc because every bottle of a certain flavour should be identical. Even the most meticulous of DIYers are slap dash relatively speaking compared to top manufacturers.

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## daniel craig (8/6/18)

Timwis said:


> I don't believe any margin of error would be enough, top e-liquid manufacturers are using precision scales etc because every bottle of a certain flavour should be identical. Even the most meticulous of DIYers are slap dash relatively speaking compared to top manufacturers.


Agreed. I think I've seen some of them use machines to dispense the amount of concentrate etc. The whole process from mixing to labelling is done by machines. Since this is rather expensive, I would assume that this is mostly used by big international brands and a few big local brands.

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## Resistance (25/7/18)

I think its an additive but I stand to be corrected

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## Moerse Rooikat (25/7/18)

RainstormZA said:


> I'm running a test on 4 flavours as the big bottles have little to no nic in them and I had a bit nic left, enough for 4 x 60ml bottles. Will give feedback after a week.
> 
> However there is a problem with my peppermint one - for some reason , it's causing my lungs to rattle and makes me cough with stuff in my throat and nose. I wonder why as the first batch never did this.


you might have a slight gold 
mental makes me cough when i get a gold

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## RainstormZA (25/7/18)

Moerse Rooikat said:


> you might have a slight gold
> mental makes me cough when i get a gold


Funnily enough, I have a yellow tint in my strawberry cream, no coughing or throat irritation. 

Without nic, it's clear like water.

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## JiveshB (15/8/18)

craigb said:


> The colour change is probably the nic oxidizing.


true true.

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## lesvaches (21/9/18)

Dietz said:


> I am sure there are threads on this but still no definitive answer, so lets ask it again.
> 
> Is there anyone here who can tell us why a 3mg nic commercial juice is barely felt in the throat, but a 3mg DIY joose kicks you to the floor?
> 
> ...



anyone consider the volume it’s manufactured in? i’m seriously just guessing but some foods it does make a difference

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## Spyro (21/9/18)

I know that manufacturers state 3mg and drop it to 2.xxmg to make it smoother. Quite a few actually. This is not speculation. I believe this will be an illegal practise after legislation takes hold.

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## Dietz (21/9/18)

Spyro said:


> I know that manufacturers state 3mg and drop it to 2.xxmg to make it smoother. Quite a few actually. This is not speculation. I believe this will be an illegal practise after legislation takes hold.


@Spyro I dont think thats true, Why would they just not state the Actual .mg instead, what will they lose if they do?
Why would anyone do that in a commercial environment? its the same as selling a 1.6 golf but only deliver the golf with a 1.4 engine?
And if they only dropping like half a % then surely it wont make that Big difference to harshness

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## Captain Cumulus (21/9/18)

Watch what you eat before testing flavours. Anything with even the smallest amount of spice can make your vape taste more peperry.

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## Resistance (21/9/18)

Dietz said:


> @Spyro I dont think thats true, Why would they just not state the Actual .mg instead, what will they lose if they do?
> Why would anyone do that in a commercial environment? its the same as selling a 1.6 golf but only deliver the golf with a 1.4 engine?
> And if they only dropping like half a % then surely it wont make that Big difference to harshness


@Dietz you will be surprised how they sell cars bro!. Small things like he CC isn't always what they say it is either.a 950CC is sometimss sold as 1000CC and there is much more regulation in the car manufacturing industry.and now with environmental awareness etc. Some of those lies make false claims in the other direction claiming less harmfull emissions and smaller engines. There are lies all over @Spyro might have a valid point.

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## Spyro (21/9/18)

Dietz said:


> @Spyro I dont think thats true, Why would they just not state the Actual .mg instead, what will they lose if they do?
> Why would anyone do that in a commercial environment? its the same as selling a 1.6 golf but only deliver the golf with a 1.4 engine?
> And if they only dropping like half a % then surely it wont make that Big difference to harshness



They do it to make the juice smoother with less throat hit.

The monetary gain is also significant long term, although I'm sure not a motive.

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## lesvaches (21/9/18)

Resistance said:


> @Dietz you will be surprised how they sell cars bro!. Small things like he CC isn't always what they say it is either.a 950CC is sometimss sold as 1000CC and there is much more regulation in the car manufacturing industry.and now with environmental awareness etc. Some of those lies make false claims in the other direction claiming less harmfull emissions and smaller engines. There are lies all over @Spyro might have a valid point.



“The VG/PG ratio is usually between 75/25 and 70/30 and so sometimes would be advertised as either.”

I never thought i’d see the day an “exact science” became a “more or less”

edit: image pfizer said that to a victims family after an accidental overdose.

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## Dietz (21/9/18)

Resistance said:


> @Dietz you will be surprised how they sell cars bro!. Small things like he CC isn't always what they say it is either.a 950CC is sometimss sold as 1000CC and there is much more regulation in the car manufacturing industry.and now with environmental awareness etc. Some of those lies make false claims in the other direction claiming less harmfull emissions and smaller engines. There are lies all over @Spyro might have a valid point.


Yeah I hear you, Maby a bad example to use car engines  but the car is just an example to make a point. at least with cars the lies would be to gain less emissions rating, but whats to gain from juice nic



Spyro said:


> They do it to make the juice smoother with less throat hit.
> 
> The monetary gain is also significant long term, although I'm sure not a motive.


Im just trying to understand what the monetary gain would be?
It just does not make sense, if a juice is smoother at 1mg, then why label it as a 3mg. I see absolutely no gain, unless im missing a point here? Also I don't think its likely that a All juice makers on a international scale would do this without somehow being able to prove on line?

Dont get me wrong I understand that it wont always be 100% 3mg (for example) but the difference would be marginal (like 2.8mg) so rounding off to 3mg in that case makes sense.
but in my opinion the amount of nic you would need to drop (Assuming that you are using gold nic or something Ive used) from a 3mg to get is smooth would be anywhere from 1.5-2mg, In which case I ask why not just label it as a 2mg (as some juice makers do)?

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## Resistance (21/9/18)

Dietz said:


> Yeah I hear you, Maby a bad example to use car engines  but the car is just an example to make a point. at least with cars the lies would be to gain less emissions rating, but whats to gain from juice nic
> 
> 
> Please dont see this as an argument, im just trying to understand what the monetary gain would be?
> ...


 for sure.not arguing.
They would say < 3,mg and sell it at 3mg due to 3-,6-,12-,18-,24-,36 is the normal standard of selling e-juice < 1,mg/ml still won't exceed the 3,mg mark but might even be 1,mg/ml and they would be in tje clear. In nic salts (dont know much about it)but they tend to advertise higher mg/ml.
And the point is people wont buy a 1mg/ml juice as they think they need 3-,6mg/ml so from a sales perspective they might claim high and hide the true mg/ml value.In nic salts it might be quite the opposite as people want higher percentage in salts

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## Resistance (21/9/18)

And this is not all of them so I am not saying someone is doing this specifically to make profit or sell product and also not saying evey juice maker does this. Im just saying...dont sue me

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## Resistance (21/9/18)

@Dietz they do this in the housing industry aswell.a house on a corner plot with pool and all the attachment sells for R15M or rents for 20k per month.then all the other houses on that same street also will sell at R15M or rent at 20k p/m just because the guy on the corner with value in his house got he's worth and all the other houses might be falling apart. So your car example is not too far off from the elephant in the room

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## Faiyaz Cheulkar (21/9/18)

Found an interesting article
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29280749/
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7726&context=etd

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## Resistance (21/9/18)

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> Found an interesting article
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/29280749/
> https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7726&context=etd


Nice find @Faiyaz Cheulkar.they even found higher concentrations than advertised in some juices

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## daniel craig (21/9/18)

0mg juice had nic in it not sure why a manufacturer would put nic in a 0mg juice. There are definitely inaccuracies when it comes to juices. Quite a few times I've had 3mg which felt like 0mg and 3mg that felt like 3mg.

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## RichJB (21/9/18)

From the linked article:



> Six samples from two manufacturers labeled as 0mg/ml were found to contain nicotine in amounts ranging from 5.7 mg/ml to 23.9 mg/ml.



OK, how does a vaper who usually vapes nic-free juice not detect 23.9mg/ml? How does he not get a major head rush from that?

I can accept that juices vary due to inconsistency of strength in nicotine batches. So a 3mg juice could easily turn out to be 2mg or 4mg because the manufacturer measured out the correct amount in good faith but received 80mg or 120mg nic from their supplier instead of the advertised 100mg. But I don't see how a 0mg juice can 'accidentally' get even 5.7mg in it. If it was only 0.1mg, you could maybe believe that it was nic residue in mixing apparatus that wasn't cleaned properly between mixing a nic batch and a no-nic batch. But not 5.7mg and certainly not 23.9mg! 

I think this is an area that will need to be watched very carefully by regulators. For all the vaping industry's claims that nicotine isn't addictive, they know damn well that it is. In an unregulated market, there is nothing stopping the less ethical ones from cramming as much nicotine as they can into juice, even 0mg juice, to try and get their customers hooked as completely as possible. And then also doing lab work to develop additives for juice that make it as addictive as possible. Nic salts was the first such development, I'm sure there will be many more.

Even as a DIYer, I can't control what is going into my juice. I can control the amounts I add, taking it on faith that the label is accurate. But how do I know what 'extras' might be added to my nic at the factory, and which aren't reported on the label? I think the flavours are fine because those are food & beverage industry products where addiction level isn't a factor. But I remain suspicious about nicotine. The sooner these products are subjected to mandatory and routine regulatory batch testing, the better imo.

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## Raindance (22/9/18)

Let me throw a cat among the pigeons here. I think you guys complaining about nic harshness are causing this by exposing your nic to too much oxygen in your mixing and or by trying to accelerate steeping.

Shaking or stirring in a manner that introduces air bubbles into your juice or exposes it to the open air for extended perionds will degrade your nic resulting in the experience you are describing.

Shake to mix but not so violently that it turns milky and then leave it sealed while time does the rest. Youre not making majonaise, so dont treat it as such.

And thats all i have to say about that.

Regards

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## RichJB (22/9/18)

What about shaking your nic before mixing? For PG nic, I literally shake it for about five seconds. In general, my sense is that we shake/stir things too much. I have tried shaking a mix for only about twenty seconds before putting it away to steep, and didn't notice any hot spots when I vaped it. It turned out the same as juices that I shake for several minutes.

The other issue is oxidation over time. Commercial mixers will tend to use up a whole quantity, say two litres, of nic in making a batch. A DIYer on 1.5 or 3mg might take six months to use up a 100ml bottle of nic. So it's likely that our nic has degraded more than the commercial mixer's nic by the time it's used. We might both keep large (for our purposes) quantities of nic in the freezer/fridge. But the commercial mixer's nic bottle goes straight from freezer to juice, then it's finished. So full bottle to empty bottle in one mixing session. Ours goes from fridge to juice multiple times (with more oxygen in the bottle each time we mix and the nic level in the bottle drops) before it's done. Could that be a factor?

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## Brommer (12/10/18)

RichJB said:


> What about shaking your nic before mixing? For PG nic, I literally shake it for about five seconds. In general, my sense is that we shake/stir things too much. I have tried shaking a mix for only about twenty seconds before putting it away to steep, and didn't notice any hot spots when I vaped it. It turned out the same as juices that I shake for several minutes.
> 
> The other issue is oxidation over time. Commercial mixers will tend to use up a whole quantity, say two litres, of nic in making a batch. A DIYer on 1.5 or 3mg might take six months to use up a 100ml bottle of nic. So it's likely that our nic has degraded more than the commercial mixer's nic by the time it's used. We might both keep large (for our purposes) quantities of nic in the freezer/fridge. But the commercial mixer's nic bottle goes straight from freezer to juice, then it's finished. So full bottle to empty bottle in one mixing session. Ours goes from fridge to juice multiple times (with more oxygen in the bottle each time we mix and the nic level in the bottle drops) before it's done. Could that be a factor?



I am still doing my homework before attempting another mix, but @RichJB 's post makes logical sense to me. What would the solution be? Bigger batches? smaller Nic bottles?

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## RainstormZA (12/10/18)

RainstormZA said:


> I'm running a test on 4 flavours as the big bottles have little to no nic in them and I had a bit nic left, enough for 4 x 60ml bottles. Will give feedback after a week.
> 
> However there is a problem with my peppermint one - for some reason , it's causing my lungs to rattle and makes me cough with stuff in my throat and nose. I wonder why as the first batch never did this.



Now I'm convinced that vg nic is the way to go, I just tried with a pg batch of gold nic and it does not mellow out as well as vg nic does. 

I'm definitely going back to vg Nic, even if I have to steep for a bit longer.

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## lesvaches (12/10/18)

RainstormZA said:


> Now I'm convinced that vg nic is the way to go, I just tried with a pg batch of gold nic and it does not mellow out as well as vg nic does.
> 
> I'm definitely going back to vg Nic, even if I have to steep for a bit longer.


Ratio?

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## RainstormZA (12/10/18)

lesvaches said:


> Ratio?


2mg per 60ml

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## RichJB (12/10/18)

Brommer said:


> I am still doing my homework before attempting another mix, but @RichJB 's post makes logical sense to me. What would the solution be? Bigger batches? smaller Nic bottles?



One possibility is to decant a 100ml nic bottle into 5x20ml HDPE droppers. Then you have four full bottles (less oxygen exposure) in the fridge/freezer while you use up the first one. I don't know if it will solve the problem but will probably serve to keep your nic fresher and reduce oxidation.

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## Silver (12/10/18)

RainstormZA said:


> Now I'm convinced that vg nic is the way to go, I just tried with a pg batch of gold nic and it does not mellow out as well as vg nic does.
> 
> I'm definitely going back to vg Nic, even if I have to steep for a bit longer.



Surely it doesnt make a difference whether you use PG or VG nic? 
As long as the final ratio of the mixed juice is right?
Or am I missing something?

@RichJB , would you say that nic ages differently in PG versus VG?
Or is it just the amount of air it gets exposed to?
Maybe the nic in VG is "preserved" better? Or something to that effect?

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## RichJB (12/10/18)

I can't say I've noticed a difference between VG and PG nic. That said, I don't get much harshness from nic of any type so I probably wouldn't notice the difference.

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## RainstormZA (12/10/18)

Silver said:


> Surely it doesnt make a difference whether you use PG or VG nic?
> As long as the final ratio of the mixed juice is right?
> Or am I missing something?
> 
> ...


For me it does make an huge difference. Considering the possibility of having a pg sensitivity, I may have reacted better to the vg nic than with the pg nic. Ask @vicTor it does make a world of difference.

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## Silver (12/10/18)

RainstormZA said:


> For me it does make an huge difference. Considering the possibility of having a pg sensitivity, I may have reacted better to the vg nic than with the pg nic. Ask @vicTor it does make a world of difference.



Ah, ok - I forgot about the PG sensitivity issue!
In that case it makes perfect sense

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## Jag2018 (12/10/18)

There are a few reasons for nic feeling too harsh:

a high nic content, 

incorrect measuring methods, 

incorrect labeling from manufacturers, 

incorrect mixing technique,
short steeping time,
low steeping temperature,
poor quality nic,
water content,
other ingredients,
to mention but a few.

In my experience, steeping time and temperature effect the feel and flavour of my mixes far more noticeably than any of the other reasons listed above. When creating your liquids, think of a wine-master or whiskey maker. It really is a type of art form and once you have the recipe (downloaded) and technique working to your taste, it can be repeated any number of times.

It is also important to remember that commercial producers often have their liquids sitting in warehouses (steeping) for months before it is sold,
and commercial juices very seldom contain just 4 pure ingredients i.e. VG, PG, Flavour(PG) and Nic(PG or VG), like yours do.

It should also be noted that the magic of "good flavour" happens in the VG, so steeping your "High VG"/PG/Flavour mix for a long time without any Nic is always best for flavour.
Nic will degrade over time, temperature and lighting conditions leaving behind the carrier fluid and a bad burnt taste but no satisfactory nic hit.

You can try this experiment. Leave 10ml of your favourite liquid to sit with the cap unscrewed and in well lit conditions for a month or so. The color will become darker, the aroma stronger and when you vape it, it will cling your wicking material like charcoal within a few hours but no real nic craving satisfaction.

I have also noticed that VG nic is less harsh than PG nic in general. If I use PG nic, then I also add distilled water.

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## Jag2018 (12/10/18)

You also need to consider the mechanism of nicotine in the e-cig vessel and how your body responds to this mechanism.

Heating PG and GLY (aka VG) to various temperatures cause varying levels of degradation of these compounds, resulting in an unknown number of alderhyde compounds to be released, including formaldehyde compounds.

In a normal cigarette, there are many flavours that are added and released while smoking. These flavours assist in masking the otherwise noxious taste of nicotine compounds and over time your body will become desensitized to the taste of nicotine namely due to the transient receptor potential ankyrin subtype 1 (TRPA1) channels in sensory neurons.

It is also unknown to what extent the flavours in e-liquids mask the the taste of alderhyde toxins and the various other toxins released while heating PG and VG/GLY.

hmmm...
Some food for thought...?

Mixing "tasty e-liquids" is just a euphemism for "well masked formaldehyde and nicotine vapour".
Call it what ever you like.
Custard meringue with lemon cream and ginger bread mango pina colada mint pixie dust darth cool massive jet monster best extraplanetary vape master awesome juice and sons, I do not care.

It may help to remember this when mixing your liquids. Harsh tasting liquids could have nothing to do with your Nic and everything to do with your entire recipe/method/technique and/or taste/physiology.

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## Resistance (15/10/18)

@Silver nic suspended I'm VG is harsh.


Silver said:


> Surely it doesnt make a difference whether you use PG or VG nic?
> As long as the final ratio of the mixed juice is right?
> Or am I missing something?
> 
> ...


That's unless all the nic/VG blends I had was foiled by something...?

Sent from my X30 using Tapatalk

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## Resistance (15/10/18)

And believe me I have vaped it neat from the dispensing container.
And vaped it side by side to compare while sorting out my allegies.
And I have a trick but still testing it

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