# To Nic or not to Nic - I challenge you...



## Rude Rudi (19/6/17)

So - I recently conducted an experiment to determine whether nicotine is in fact addictive as per "popular belief" or is vaping/smoking just a habit...

Having kicked smoking successfully - I was keen to find out whether I could do without nic and whether I can *REALLY* tell the difference between 0 nic and regular 3mg nic and importantly, does nic affect the taste.... Some swear that nicotine has a "taste"... I had to find out for myself.

The plan was to make the experiment as random and unpredictable as possible - through in some placebos and a beer bucket and voila - the scene is set...

I mixed up 10 DIY recipes which I am familiar with - I made 2 of each recipe in identical (new) 10ml bottles = one with 3mg nic and one with 0mg nic. I labeled them exactly the same, ie name, date and steep time. All 20 bottles went into a beer ice bucket = 2 of each recipe. I gave it a "skommel"  and let it sit for 2 weeks....

After 2 weeks I did a daily "lucky dip" and grabbed whichever 5 juices came to hand. I used those 5 juices exclusively for the day - I sometimes had doubles - but that was part of the journey...

I happily depleted the stash which lasted just on a week (about 30mls a day) and did not "fuss" about whether I could detect nic or not. By randomising it, I could have done a whole day with no nic or only nic - it did not matter to me. I am sure there are far more scientific ways, but it worked for me.

I could honestly not tell the difference once - not even remotely. The Orange Brulee with nic or no nic tasted the same - no loss of body, top and base notes, etc. I never felt agitated, deprived or suffered from any withdrawal symptoms. I enjoyed the juice - regardless of nic. Even if I was unsure whether it was the nic version, there was no way of telling!

I stepped it up a notch and made another 10 x 30ml juices - this time all 0% nic but clearly labeled as such. After the steep, I vaped the 0 nic juice exclusively for the same period. The results were the same - I never "missed" anything - on day 2 or so, I actually totally 'forgot' that it was all 0 nic...

I know that we are all different but I always believed (thanks to popular belief) that I was addicted to nicotine (I smoked for 25 years) but this has shown me that it is not the nic...

I vape because I enjoy it... I enjoy being able to vape my own creations as well as some of the best recipes around.

It is what I enjoy doing - it is the occasion, the flavour, the cloud...
It is *not the nic*...

Give it a go - I dare you!
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## craigb (19/6/17)

Glad you were successful, and that discovery must have been quite empowering. You control the nicotine, not the other way around. 

My story is both accidental and less satisfying (and is also one of the reasons I label everything meticulously now) 

I mixed up a few bottles of 0mg testers, stashed them away and forgot about them. 

Pulled them out one day and put them into rotation. I was vaping 0mg for 3 days, feeling sluggish and slow until I realized I wasn't getting any nicotine. A quick 6mg SnV and a refill later and I was feeling much better. 

I suppose it's just different parts of the same journey.

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## RichJB (19/6/17)

I can tell the difference. Not in the taste but in how my body reacts. I do 3mg juice normally but never put nic in my testers. If I'm flavour testing and only vape testers for say four hours, I start getting an edgy feeling and craving nic. Just a couple of toots on a regular juice is enough to satisfy the craving. But it's definitely still there.

I think I'm less addicted to nic now than I was when smoking. As I say, I can go without nic for about four hours before symptoms of withdrawal start to manifest. When I was smoking, two hours without nic had me climbing the walls. However, I think I'm more addicted to the mechanical routine with vaping. I smoked an average of one cig every waking hour. That only takes about 5mins so I was free of the smoking mechanical routine for 55mins of every hour. I don't work in an office with designated vape/smoke breaks, I can vape all day. So... I do. Vaping takes up a LOT more than 5mins of every waking hour. It's a bit of a concern to me. Anyway, what can you do, it is what it is.

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## Silver (19/6/17)

Love this thread @Rude Rudi !!

Amazing

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## Anneries (19/6/17)

This is very interesting, and I was actually to post something in the same lines, that I discovered this weekend. 

At the levels I vape, I can feel the difference, even 6mg vs 0mg does have a throat hit difference that I personally cannot deny. Anyways, this weekend I pulled the last bit of my over-steeped DIY recipe and vaped it exclusively the weekend. Only to realize at the end of the weekend that I never added nic to the mix. No withdrawal symptoms, or not the same that I had while still on stinkies. I attributed the sluggishness to the cold weather in the Cape. Might actually be withdrawal but not the same irritated agitated a$$hole symptoms I experienced a year ago.

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## Raindance (19/6/17)

Interesting to read the experiences with special notice of the ADV nic percentages being made. Going from 6% to 0% surely is different than going from 3% to 0%. I make the assumption that the three percenters would be less addicted than the six percenters. Would that be a valid observation?

In any case, my aim is to move to 0% over time. Found that dropping the % too rapidly (From 9 to 4 within two months) had me back on the stinkies a year ago. So I am taking it slow. At 3% now and planning to go to 2% within a month or two. Or maybe I will follow the OP's example and do a blind test to see how it goes.

Regards

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## PsyCLown (19/6/17)

Interesting thread.

I have never smoked before. Started vaping and only vaped 0mg, however my GF and some friends vape juice with nic which ranges anywhere from 1mg to 3mg and on multiple occasions for the past few months I have tasted many juices with nicotine and gotten nicotine rushes from them.

However I am in no way addicted to the nicotine, some juices are harsh and I struggle to vape. Others are smoother and I can still vape them without coughing. Some I can only tell there is nic in there due to the headrush I get after a few pulls.

I do not think nicotine is as addictive as people think, that being said everyone is different and reacts differently to different substances.
I personally do not understand how someone could become an alcoholic, I do not find being drunk remotely pleasant and do not even drink anymore as I dislike the taste and effects I get from it.

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## KZOR (19/6/17)

I have long been interested in this topic of human dependency on certain drugs and through all my studies and research i have come to the conclusion that two types of nicotine-dependent people exist.
1) Those that really do become dependent and
2) those that create a thought of dependency

The reasons for both of these situations is summed up below.

*Smokers no.1 :*

Humans didn't evolve to crave nicotine specifically. Nicotine coincidentally causes a reaction among the pleasure receptors in our brains that we grow to crave. If tobasco sauce caused the same physiologic reaction, then we would find ourselves easily addicted to tobasco sauce.

We have receptors in our brains for our neurotransmitters, where they each fit into their own receptor and one is called Acetylcholine. Nicotine happens to fit really nicely into one type of the receptors for Acetylcholine (so much so that they're named nicotinic acetylcholine receptor -- so well that the nicotine attaches to all these receptors, and then gets stuck and keeps Acetylcholine out for a while. And then people get used to having their Acetylcholine receptors ON all the time because of the nicotine, so going back to "normal" -- without the nicotine acting on these acetylcholine receptors, is really uncomfortable.

By binding to nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, nicotine increases the levels of several neurotransmitters – acting as a sort of 'volume control'. It is thought that increased levels of dopamine in the reward circuits of the brain are responsible for the apparent euphoria, stress-control and relaxation, and addiction caused by nicotine consumption.

*OR*

*Smokers no.2
*
There was a well known study done on a group of smokers where they underwent the following procedures :

Participants underwent an fMRI scan and were administered a cigarette, but each visit tested a different condition:


Believes the cigarette contains nicotine but receives placebo.
Believes the cigarette does not contain nicotine but receives a nicotine cigarette.
Believes the cigarette contains nicotine and receives nicotine.
Believes the cigarette does not contain nicotine and receives placebo.
After smoking the provided cigarette, participants completed a reward learning task while undergoing fMRI. They rated their levels of craving before smoking the cigarette and after the task.

The fMRI scans showed significant neural activity that correlated to both craving and learning signals when participants smoked a nicotine cigarette and believed its nicotine content was genuine. However, smoking nicotine but believing it was a placebo did not produce the same brain signals.

Results from this study support previous findings that beliefs can alter a drug's effects on craving, providing insight into possible avenues for novel methods of addiction treatments.

I myself, similar to @Rude Rudi , have realised that i do not have that addictive nature and have gone weeks vaping on 0mg nicotine ejuice.
We are truly part of the lucky ones.

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## Kalahari stoommasjien (19/6/17)

Ok, let me add my 5c's worth...

Can you recall your stinky days? The 1st cigarette of the day? Deep inhale and..... that relaxation sinking over you.... this is bliss....
I never had this with a vape, not with 0mg (for obvious reasons) not with 3mg, 6mg, or 12mg, so as a nicotine delivery system, vaping doesn't seem to work, at least not for me. People talk and write about nicotine rushes, all I can say is ¿ Que ¿ how do you get that right, I can't get no... satisfaction... to quote some limey musician...
Now, I'm not complaining, I've gone from 20+ a day, beginning of March this year, to zero and Vaping initially with an MTL setup, to a DTL setup about a month later to now, where I can go to work in the morning without a mod + atty, to not skalping my co-workers and returning home at night and having a few inhales from my mixed bag of RDA/RDTA's and feeling fairly happy, juice can be 0mg or more, it doesn't matter physiolgically the nicotine does absolutely nothing for me. I'm sure if I were to light up one of the stinkies still floating about here, I'd get the nicotine hit, I know and would be happy to get, but since i haven't had one now for 90 days, app. and its the longest period I've been able to be smoke free, I won't go back there again and will likely even drop the vaping eventually, since I seem to able to live without it with no adverse effect and everyone around me is still alive  and no broken bones or bruises either!

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## Rude Rudi (19/6/17)

Fantastic responses guys - it seems that we are truly different and influenced by our past - smokers vs non-smokers. The idea of gradually lessening the % over a period of time sounds intriguing and I will possibly follow suit... 

Yes, going from 6 to 0 will probably yield a different result as stated so my 3 to zero will be less impactful. Interesting concepts by Kzor - I think I fall into the Smokers 2 category based on the evidence...




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## Huffapuff (20/6/17)

Great thread @Rude Rudi. And interesting observations from all. 

I've worked myself down to 1.5mg nicotine and it's where I've settled for the last year or so. I first dropped from 3mg to 1mg and it didn't work for me - I found myself vaping aggressively with no satisfaction. 

A couple of months ago I tried going down to 1mg again but I found myself vaping more/longer without feeling satisfied. Also I found the lack of throat hit to be something I missed. 

I know I'm quite an addictive person and wished I fell into the second category of smoker that @KZOR mentioned, but I'm definitely not! Even when I'm going into a situation where I know I won't be able to vape freely I start to get a little jittery! 

So I have to admit I'm quite jealous of those who can vape 0mg nic, or even quit vaping altogether (ok, maybe not the quitting altogether part!)

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## RichJB (20/6/17)

I think most vapers are still addicted. If you reckon you aren't, here's the acid test: go to work... but leave your vape at home. If you're not addicted, it shouldn't make any difference. Which raises the question: which are we more addicted to, the nic or the mechanical routine? For me, I'd say it's about equal.

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## StompieZA (20/6/17)

I tend to vape more and longer if i vape a juice with 0mg. Not sure if its because i know its 0mg but then the other part of it is.....

When vaping 2.5mg, i can feel the throat hit with nic where as without nic i dont get that throat hit.

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## aktorsyl (20/6/17)

RichJB said:


> I think most vapers are still addicted. If you reckon you aren't, here's the acid test: go to work... but leave your vape at home. If you're not addicted, it shouldn't make any difference. Which raises the question: which are we more addicted to, the nic or the mechanical routine? For me, I'd say it's about equal.


Routine is a big one too. I still crave cigarettes, but when I sit down and think about it it's because I mostly just have an urge to go chill outside with a cig in the hand and a coffee in the other. Very little to do with the nicotine or the other addictive fun stuff in cigarettes. Vaping satisfies 99% of that urge, but not the full 100% (speaking for me personally, for many people it does the full 100%).

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## Greyz (20/6/17)

I really enjoyed reading everyone's posts in this thread, it was nice to see others opinions and experiences with and without nic in their ejuice as this is something I struggle with myslef.
I had set myself a goal a few months ago with the aim of reducing my nic down to 1mg with the end game being to quit nic completely and go Zero. This seemed like an easy decision as I was starting to find some of my juices to be quite harsh on the throat at 3mg.
So first step was to reduce the nic down to 2mg, so I mixed my next batch of juices at 2mg and let them steep.
2mg was the answer to the TH I was getting with some juices - especially the first morning vape where Bronuts would singe my throat. I was enjoying 2mg but I did notice a marked increase in the amount I was vaping. But I attributed this to the lower nic level and just needed to give my body time to adjust.
Next batch I mixed at 1mg, I made 5x 50ml's of my ADV's and this is where things started going pear shaped for me. I was vaping thru almost 50mls a day and plenty often I'd find myself filling a tank and finishing it in one sitting. Thats 5mls in 10min.

For me I found that with very little nicotine my body had no stop indicator, basically I'd just keep vaping and vaping till the tank emptied. Whereas before after about half a tank my body had had it's fill of nicotine and I would stop vaping.

Right now I found my happy place at 2.5mg, I for one won't go down to zero for 3 reasons:
1. I enjoy the relaxed euphoria that comes with vaping nic
2. I can't afford to vape 50mls a day even though I DIY
3. The juice just didn't taste right - Someone once described zero nic juice as food without enough salt, while it may taste good it's just lacking that little something

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## craigb (20/6/17)

So one of things I'm taking from this, is that those that are dependent on nicotine seem to hit a genuine barrier at approx 3mg.


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## spiv (20/6/17)

I actually don't vape while I'm at work. I have no withdrawals or anything but enjoy vaping in the car and at home. I still add some nicotine (1.5% - 2%) to my mixes but would like to try some nicotine free mixes. 
When I initially quit smoking I would try vaping 0 nic (twisp) juices and it felt like something was missing. 2 years later, I think it's time to try getting rid of nicotine.


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## Oupa (20/6/17)

I am one of the unlucky/lucky ones that experience the difference between 0mg, 2mg and 3mg... 0mg does absolutely nothing for me. With 2mg and 3mg I feel a slight pleasant tickling lung/throat hit.

Furthermore 2mg I can chain vape, but not 3mg. 3mg is my favourite vape, but chain vaping on 3mg gives me that slight uncomfortable buzz (sweaty palms, slight dizziness and even palpitations when overdoing it).

I definitely feel something is missing when only vaping 0mg

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## Vinay (21/6/17)

One morning of running out of juice...i found a bottle laying arou nd in my drawer and I dripped it. After around 10 pulls I found nothing. It turned out it was 0mg.At the time I used to vape 3mg of nic. I feel that when I do have nic it basically gives me the feeling of "filling up" an empty space in my chest. I've tried 0 nic and it doesn't help. After a year now of trying to cut down on nic I have dropped to 0.07mg of nic. I first made the drop from 3mg to 2mg. Then to 1.5mg and then to 1mg. Through each drop in nic content I found that it satisfies less and less however after 3 days of vaping it, my body would adapt. As I cut down. I notice that I can go longer without vaping. I do find a difference in 0mg juices and juices that contain nic. I also find a difference in taste. I find that nicotine slightly mutes the flavour.

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## Alex (21/6/17)

The point @Greyz made about the salt kinda nailed it for me.

I'm addicted to caffeine and nicotine

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