# Acrolein and Safe Vaping



## John Thompson

Hi there, I was just curious about the above mentioned chemical and vaping safely. This relates specifically to heating glycerine and creating Acrolein. This is the info i can find. Hope someone else has more relevant info. Or clarity?

"Glycerine is dangerous because @ 280 deg C it transforms in completely another chemical - acrolein - which is very toxic."

My concern here is with using high powered devices that can heat up to 300 deg C or 600 deg F.

280 deg C is the equivalent of 536 F.

This also relates to safe vaping charts vs ohms law. if you look at the chart it says 8.4W plus or minus. I am using 30 - 100 W devices.

http://egoii.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/safe-vaping-power.jpg


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## Silver

John Thompson said:


> Hi there, I was just curious about the above mentioned chemical and vaping safely. This relates specifically to heating glycerine and creating Acrolein. This is the info i can find. Hope someone else has more relevant info. Or clarity?
> 
> "Glycerine is dangerous because @ 280 deg C it transforms in completely another chemical - acrolein - which is very toxic."
> 
> My concern here is with using high powered devices that can heat up to 300 deg C or 600 deg F.
> 
> 280 deg C is the equivalent of 536 F.
> 
> This also relates to safe vaping charts vs ohms law. if you look at the chart it says 8.4W plus or minus. I am using 30 - 100 W devices.
> 
> http://egoii.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/safe-vaping-power.jpg



I think those charts with whats safe in green were put together in the days of the basic Evod1 and mpt2 etc. 

on my evod, anything more than about 9 watts tastes burnt

But i think the modern coils with thicker wire handle the power much better


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## huffnpuff

Lol, Charts like that don't take build into consideration, so pretty useless as some higher watt builds will barely even start producing vapor a 20Watts.

On a more serious note, now one can see why temp sensing is becoming more important, because apart from limiting dry hits, one can also limit acrolein formation. I rarely vape above 500degrees fahrenheit.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## John Thompson

huffnpuff said:


> Lol, Charts like that don't take build into consideration, so pretty useless as some higher watt builds will barely even start producing vapor a 20Watts.
> 
> On a more serious note, now one can see why temp sensing is becoming more important, because apart from limiting dry hits, one can also limit acrolein formation. I rarely vape above 500degrees fahrenheit.



It's seems that it is the glycerine that is the biggest producer of acrolein. 

Does that then mean that a higher vg concentration juice has more potential health risks than a higher pg concentration? 

I am personally looking at juices that contain propanediol vs traditional propylene glycol as it's more organic. With smaller amounts of glycerine.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## AndreFerreira

Another good point to make is that while the coil reaches that high temp, the glycerine rarely does it evaporates before reaching 280 degrees Celsius, in my own scientific opinion acrolein would start forming slowly at 280 degrees Celsius, I believe that the glycerine never really gets to 280, even with very high wattage builds. Vaping at high temp just causes more juice to evaporate at a given time, yes it would be hotter and maybe it reaches 280 at extreme build. But think of spit back, I understand that a drop can cool down fast but have you even felt drops of spit back ever feel even close to 100 degrees Celsius? never mind 280. Just my opinion as a Development Chemist.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## WHeunis

John Thompson said:


> Hi there, I was just curious about the above mentioned chemical and vaping safely. This relates specifically to heating glycerine and creating Acrolein. This is the info i can find. Hope someone else has more relevant info. Or clarity?
> 
> "Glycerine is dangerous because @ 280 deg C it transforms in completely another chemical - acrolein - which is very toxic."
> 
> My concern here is with using high powered devices that can heat up to 300 deg C or 600 deg F.
> 
> 280 deg C is the equivalent of 536 F.
> 
> This also relates to safe vaping charts vs ohms law. if you look at the chart it says 8.4W plus or minus. I am using 30 - 100 W devices.
> 
> http://egoii.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/safe-vaping-power.jpg



While acrolein forming from glycerine is a known risk, it is somewhat irrelevant with regular vaping. Even high wattage vaping it simply wouldn't occur.

Why?
Because cotton starts to singe/burn at 450F. (232C).
So the chances of you actually vaping at those temperatures are near 0.
You would choke and puke long before it becomes an actual issue.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## John Thompson

hi @WHeunis I don't know if I agree with the temperatures you mention. My evic VT works best at about 480F Fahrenheit. And even if I push it up 550F it still doesn't have a burnt taste. I believe there are units going up to 800F now. I think the point @Silver raised about the newer coils using thicker wire and being bigger than earlier devices will in turn have more cotton, more juice = greater surface area and the possibility of it burning is less. 

That brings me back to glycerine based juices. 70/30 etc VG/PG. Isn't it safer to vape PG then? Especially when using larger mods. Even the Ego one I have will push out 35W with a 0.5 ohm coil and my ijust 2 is 60W.

What about new juices that contain Propanediol vs PG. Wouldn't that be a safer alternative to glycerine? Or at least less risk.


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## WHeunis

John Thompson said:


> less risk.



Of course that is always going to be a priority. Higher for some than others, but fact remains, most people switched to vaping due to health concerns/issues.
As far as mitigating risk... I really do feel that PG/VG is just as safe as the next thing. Sure, there could/should/might be even more risk reduction by replacing them, but honestly... i feel we would be left arguing over mere decimal percentage differences there.

VG is some slight degrees "safer" than PG, but not without risk of it's own. VG at high temperatures converts/changes to formaldehyde... and that really is the point... ANY CHEMICAL subjected to high enough heat WILL break down and CHANGE... 90% of the time it wont be a change for GOOD OUTCOMES...

As far as temp control goes: i fail to see how somebody willingly ignoring the inherent safety design goal of temp control, is in any way indicative that PG/VG/whatever is to blame.
If chemical conversion of a risk factor to someone, then temp control exists primarily for exactly that reason. To stop those things from happening in the first place...
Set your limit/control accordingly imo.

Reactions: Like 1


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