# Here's to Dolly, to clone or not to clone



## Daniel (1/2/17)

With all the chatter about cloning and reverse engineering I thought it best to bring up the ever present uneasy topic of clones. Not what the topic is about at all whole different ball game in my eyes (watch The Island of Dr Moreau).... 

What this is about is the ever present pretense of 'aurhentic' vs 'cloned' hardware. 

Here's a challenge... I challenge any stalwart to be blind folded and distinguish between an authentic and a clone atty. Be it a RDA(T)(whatever). Yes everyone wants to crucify the cloners but at the end of the day if I get the same vaping experience from a cloned whatever will it not urge me to try the 'real deal'? 

I'm not condoning cloning don't get me wrong but does the price tag of authentics really make it worth while?

Reactions: Like 4 | Useful 1


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## Rob Fisher (1/2/17)

Daniel said:


> I'm not condoning cloning don't get me wrong but does the price tag of authentics really make it worth while?



Based on my experience with the Hurricane V2 the answer is no.

Based on my experience with the Skyline and Hussar I would say absofookinglutly!

Reactions: Like 2


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## KZOR (1/2/17)

I buy authentic because i want it to last. Clones are made from inferior quality copper and SS and cheaper coating applications so in the long run you might have to replace the clone due to malfunction or early wear. Authentics come with a failproof warranty.
The conductivity is also way better on the authentics.
Quality control is important and adds to the higher price of the authentic.
It is a personal preferance m8 .......... i would not want a Fiat Punto with a Ferrari badge.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 6


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## Clouds4Days (1/2/17)

Daniel said:


> With all the chatter about cloning and reverse engineering I thought it best to bring up the ever present uneasy topic of clones. Not what the topic is about at all whole different ball game in my eyes (watch The Island of Dr Moreau)....
> 
> What this is about is the ever present pretense of 'aurhentic' vs 'cloned' hardware.
> 
> ...



This would be something really cool. Even though im a full authentic supporter it would be remarkable to watch someone that has a certain RDA and make them do a blindfold test on their own authentic vs a clone.

But i do however still believe a RDA can be cloned with much more ease than a tank (RTA/RDTA) . A clone might look the same but the quality control especialy when it comes to tolerances can not be compared.


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## Daniel (1/2/17)

Rob Fisher said:


> Based on my experience with the Hurricane V2 the answer is no.
> 
> Based on my experience with the Skyline and Hussar I would say absofookinglutly!


Very true and there has not been proper clones of the last two.....so it proves a point. 

RTAs is a different ballgame. Tighter tolerances non clonable airflow. That's what sets the authentic apart.....

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Daniel (1/2/17)

KZOR said:


> I buy authentic because i want it to last. Clones are made from inferior quality copper and SS and cheaper coating applications so in the long run you might have to replace the clone due to malfunction or early wear. Authentics come with a failproof warranty.
> The conductivity is also way better on the authentics.
> Quality control is important and adds to the higher price of the authentic.
> It is a personal preferance m8 .......... i would not want a Fiat Punto with a Ferrari badge.


100% but for the price of one authentic RDA I can buy 20 clones. Again I'm not condoning cloning just trying to see the scale of economics behind the exuberant prices of authentics. Vaping on a Hadaly Clone at the moment. Does it have its issues yes, top cap tighter than a Nuns..... BUT is the vape any better than an authentic I still challenge anyone to prove me wrong about the vape experience Auth vs Clone especially RDAs......

Reactions: Like 1


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## Daniel (1/2/17)

Clouds4Days said:


> This would be something really cool. Even though im a full authentic supporter it would be remarkable to watch someone that has a certain RDA and make them do a blindfold test on their own authentic vs a clone.
> 
> But i do however still believe a RDA can be cloned with much more ease than a tank (RTA/RDTA) . A clone might look the same but the quality control especialy when it comes to tolerances can not be compared.


The HE RDA scene is dead to be honest sadly because of cloning. Ashamedly the last authentic I acquired was a Cyclone (how ironic...) just because it's such a stylish atty especially with the Fusion drip tip. The Hadaly Clone is such a good atty if the authentic is better I'm sure I will purchase one. Im still waiting for a challenge accepted....


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## Rob Fisher (1/2/17)

Daniel said:


> The HE RDA scene is dead to be honest sadly because of cloning.



I would have to disagree with this statement based on the number of Krytens that have been sold in this first run world wide!

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Clouds4Days (1/2/17)

Rob Fisher said:


> I would have to disagree with this statement based on the number of Krytens that have been sold in this first run world wide!



Where did you order your kryten RDA from uncle Rob?


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## Christos (1/2/17)

Daniel said:


> With all the chatter about cloning and reverse engineering I thought it best to bring up the ever present uneasy topic of clones. Not what the topic is about at all whole different ball game in my eyes (watch The Island of Dr Moreau)....
> 
> What this is about is the ever present pretense of 'aurhentic' vs 'cloned' hardware.
> 
> ...


I bought a clone atty from you. I got it in great condition. I suspect you never used it. 
Great buy at a great price.
1 week of use and the posts rusted. Give me a shout and I'll post pics. 
Authentics for me for quality.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## KZOR (1/2/17)

Rob Fisher said:


> based on the number of Krytens that have been sold in this first run world wide


Word ..... mine is also inbound. 
@Daniel ...... I will accept your challenge but with the goon or cosmonaut.


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## Clouds4Days (1/2/17)

Christos said:


> I bought a clone atty from you. I got it in great condition. I suspect you never used it.
> Great buy at a great price.
> 1 week of use and the posts rusted. Give me a shout and I'll post pics.
> Authentics for me for quality.



What RDA was it bud?
Interesting to know.


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## Clouds4Days (1/2/17)

KZOR said:


> Word ..... mine is also inbound.
> @Daniel ...... I will accept your challenge but with the goon or cosmonaut.



Where did you order yours from @KZOR


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## Christos (1/2/17)

Clouds4Days said:


> What RDA was it bud?
> Interesting to know.


Chalice III. Original was about 200USD I think. Got a clone for R 200. 
Still usable but rusted posts are an inhale hazard.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Can relate 1


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## Clouds4Days (1/2/17)

Christos said:


> Chalice III. Original was about 200USD I think. Got a clone for R 200.
> Still usable but rusted posts are an inhale hazard.



Yeah dam bud , i wouldnt wanna try inhale that rust.
But if its rusted there can be no way its made from SS.


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## Christos (1/2/17)

Clouds4Days said:


> Yeah dam bud , i wouldnt wanna try inhale that rust.
> But if its rusted there can be no way its made from SS.


Hence I only buy authentics.


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## RichJB (1/2/17)

Christos said:


> 1 week of use and the posts rusted. Give me a shout and I'll post pics.
> Authentics for me for quality.



If I'd had similar experiences, I'd probably also go for originals. Not HE as I'm unwilling to spend so much on vape gear. I didn't spend a lot on smoking, I'm sure not going to spend on vaping. But I'd certainly rather buy, say, a Tsunami or Limitless than a clone. However, I haven't had any such experiences. I buy the cheapest gear I can find and nothing has malfunctioned or broken on me yet. Almost everybody I know who bought an Axis M17 has had it break. I have two dirt cheap iSticks (around R500 each) and neither has given me problems ever. So I'm struggling to understand why I would pay R7k more for an M17.

That said, I'm against clones in principle because it is IP theft. However, I think the real world effect on sales of originals isn't that great. Or at least, not as great as it could be, mainly because people who buy clones (like myself) aren't ever going to buy HE originals. So it's much like the premium juice v DIY argument. Many DIYers were never really in the premium juice market. I would never buy Cuttwood juice. If it was the only vaping juice on the market, I simply wouldn't vape. Sorted. 

However, in DIY I'm not taking anybody else's IP. So it's a conscience-free undertaking. Clone atties, not so much. But it's a mea culpa I can live with.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


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## Christos (1/2/17)

RichJB said:


> If I'd had similar experiences, I'd probably also go for originals. Not HE as I'm unwilling to spend so much on vape gear. I didn't spend a lot on smoking, I'm sure not going to spend on vaping. But I'd certainly rather buy, say, a Tsunami or Limitless than a clone. However, I haven't had any such experiences. I buy the cheapest gear I can find and nothing has malfunctioned or broken on me yet. Almost everybody I know who bought an Axis M17 has had it break. I have two dirt cheap iSticks (around R500 each) and neither has given me problems ever. So I'm struggling to understand why I would pay R7k more for an M17.
> 
> That said, I'm against clones in principle because it is IP theft. However, I think the real world effect on sales of originals isn't that great. Or at least, not as great as it could be, mainly because people who buy clones (like myself) aren't ever going to buy HE originals. So it's much like the premium juice v DIY argument. Many DIYers were never really in the premium juice market. I would never buy Cuttwood juice. If it was the only vaping juice on the market, I simply wouldn't vape. Sorted.
> 
> However, in DIY I'm not taking anybody else's IP. So it's a conscience-free undertaking. Clone atties, not so much. But it's a mea culpa I can live with.


Interestingly I know more people that are happy with a M17 than people who have issues with them. 
I have a rogue atty clone that also rusted at the post screws.
At the end of the day it's about what works for the individual and I get amazing flavour from my authentic since day one with no issues. 
I have gear that's over a year old and still running like the day I bought it. Can't say the same for clones I have bought but that's just my perspective on the matter.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Oceanic Vapes (1/2/17)

You know what guys, my opinion is : whoever makes the authentic puts their time and money into it, they come up with the ideas because this is a lifestyle for them as it is for us. You are paying for the quality, then someone takes it and tries to reinvent someone else's idea. For me personally I'll pay more for the authentic and support that brand bec of all the hard work they've done to bring me a awesome rda.

When looking for clothes, if u go to a cheap store and by clothes, the shirt will maybe last you a year, but if you spend more money and buy an expensive known brand that shirt can last you 5 years. So at the end of the day, buying clones is going to cost you more money anyway. For me I'll stick to authentic and support and thank the brands for their excellent markmanship.

Just got a new mad dog rda, authentic, what quality could be happier and I know it will last me for ever

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Silver (1/2/17)

@Daniel

I had a very bad experience with a Kayfun clone a few months into my vaping. It leaked and didnt work properly. I spent many hours toiling and troubling. It even leaked juice (5 pawns bowdens mate) all over my (then) car seat and took a long time for me to get rid of it. Put me off Kayfuns for ever. Only recently I started doing research into it and discovered how much some vapers like the Kayfuns. What a pity because I think I would have loved it if i had one that worked nicely. 

The part I dont like is when cloners clone the original and even put the brand and the name of the original on their device. To me that is just wrong.

Have generally stayed away from clones and would rather buy a cheaper original than a very cheap clone of something expensive.

As for the blindfold test, I agree, most vapers probably would not be able to tell the difference, but I just prefer not buying knockoffs if i can help it.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## SAVapeGear (1/2/17)

Some people also don't look after their gear.My M17 rocks.

It is not a mod for bashing around and running crazy atty's on it.

It is made from wood and acrylic and one needs to keep that in mind.

Some people might have issues with theirs but you don't know how it is treated.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Daniel (1/2/17)

RichJB said:


> If I'd had similar experiences, I'd probably also go for originals. Not HE as I'm unwilling to spend so much on vape gear. I didn't spend a lot on smoking, I'm sure not going to spend on vaping. But I'd certainly rather buy, say, a Tsunami or Limitless than a clone. However, I haven't had any such experiences. I buy the cheapest gear I can find and nothing has malfunctioned or broken on me yet. Almost everybody I know who bought an Axis M17 has had it break. I have two dirt cheap iSticks (around R500 each) and neither has given me problems ever. So I'm struggling to understand why I would pay R7k more for an M17.
> 
> That said, I'm against clones in principle because it is IP theft. However, I think the real world effect on sales of originals isn't that great. Or at least, not as great as it could be, mainly because people who buy clones (like myself) aren't ever going to buy HE originals. So it's much like the premium juice v DIY argument. Many DIYers were never really in the premium juice market. I would never buy Cuttwood juice. If it was the only vaping juice on the market, I simply wouldn't vape. Sorted.
> 
> However, in DIY I'm not taking anybody else's IP. So it's a conscience-free undertaking. Clone atties, not so much. But it's a mea culpa I can live with.


Oh now that's a whole different discussion on its own Sir.... Cloning recipes .... 

Everyone is so uppity about cloning yet no one bats an eyelid about cloning juices... Whole new discussion right there!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Daniel (1/2/17)

Rob Fisher said:


> I would have to disagree with this statement based on the number of Krytens that have been sold in this first run world wide!


How many of those have been manufactured? If you really look at the scale of economics its a drop in the ocean. How many Goon clones you think have been sold?


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## Rob Fisher (1/2/17)

Clouds4Days said:


> Where did you order your kryten RDA from uncle Rob?



Group Buy in an HE FB Group @Clouds4Days

Reactions: Like 1


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## Huffapuff (1/2/17)

Daniel said:


> Oh now that's a whole different discussion on its own Sir.... Cloning recipes ....
> 
> Everyone is so uppity about cloning yet no one bats an eyelid about cloning juices... Whole new discussion right there!



I think you'll find that most cloned juices are never sold. They're made by people who, like @RichJB mentioned, would never buy the original. I can assure you that there is a lot of stink generated when someone tries to sell a cloned juice or pass someone else's recipe off as their own.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Christos (1/2/17)

@Daniel, i think you are paying too much for your batteries. At R200 a battery why not consider clone batteries at R10 from your local China city?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## Rob Fisher (1/2/17)

Daniel said:


> How many of those have been manufactured? If you really look at the scale of economics its a drop in the ocean. How many Goon clones you think have been sold?



Yes cloners has stuffed up the market because they are stinking thieves... won't argue that fact.

But the first run of authentic Krytens sold out in 24 hours and he made 10,000 units! Not to be sneezed at!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Huffapuff (1/2/17)

A while back I went into my local b&m to take a look at a mage rta. It felt cheap and lose, like it was made from plastic and not put together too well. I wasn't impressed and thought what a pity as I wanted to buy it. 

When I commented to the guy in the shop he realized he'd given me the clone version. Needless to say that when he gave me the real deal it felt solid and smooth. 

When I bought my first rda I went cheap and got a kennedy clone. It added a metallic taste to my vape and I was almost put off RDAs altogether. I compare that experience to any of the authentic RDAs I use now and to me there's no comparison. 

It's like a gourmet burger vs McDonald's. You're eating a burger but there's a vast difference in what you're getting from the experience. 

I've never bought a clone since.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Daniel (1/2/17)

Christos said:


> @Daniel, i think you are paying too much for your batteries. At R200 a battery why not consider clone batteries at R10 from your local China city?


Don't get petty now I merely posed the question.....

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RichJB (1/2/17)

Daniel said:


> Everyone is so uppity about cloning yet no one bats an eyelid about cloning juices...



I don't have much of a problem with that because:
1) DIYers who clone commercial juices seldom market it and profit from it. They do it for the challenge, not for money.
2) Even if others take and make the recipe, they are again unlikely to be customers of the original, and
3) Clones are almost impossible to get right, even Wayne freely admits he won't expect to get closer than 80-90%. And that last 10-20% is generally what makes the juice. Wayne has made several attempts at Duchess, he tells you that they're bangin' recipes and they undoubtedly are. But they ain't Duchess.

I have made some DIY juices which I assume from their names are clones of commercial juices, such as Sucker Punch Clone. What is Sucker Punch and who made it? I have no idea. One thing is certain - whoever made Sucker Punch never lost a sale to me from me making the DIY clone because I have no interest in the original. Nor even in the clone, come to think of it. I made it once and have passed it over since.

There are doubtless some DIYers who now make decent clones and have stopped buying the original, thus resulting in lost sales for the manufacturer. But I'd imagine it's a very small proportion of overall sales. It doesn't apply at all to me. The only commercial juices I vaped before starting DIY were VaporFi juices, simple single flavours like Watermelon or Strawberry. I have no interest in cloning those, and I don't have experience of much else. So local juice makers can rest easy that I'm not going to clone their juices because, well, I haven't the first clue what any of them even taste like.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Daniel (1/2/17)

Rob Fisher said:


> Yes cloners has stuffed up the market because they are stinking thieves... won't argue that fact.
> 
> But the first run of authentic Krytens sold out in 24 hours and he made 10,000 units! Not to be sneezed at!


And that proves my point, discerned vapers will buy authentics.... 

I try not buy into the 'hype' so if a cloned product presents itself and IF it is a 1:1 clone why not try that out first? 

All the makers are in it to make money what irks me is why charge the 'hyped' prices? 

I've been in the knife community for some time now and nothing gets my panties in a twist like cloned knives of a really good maker. But no offense its just not the same level. It's so much easier to clone a cylindrical shape.... 

Do the authentic mod makers lose from clones being produced? No in fact they probably benefit from it..... P

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Clouds4Days (1/2/17)

Daniel said:


> And that proves my point, discerned vapers will buy authentics....
> 
> I try not buy into the 'hype' so if a cloned product presents itself and IF it is a 1:1 clone why not try that out first?
> 
> ...



Have you ever tried machining a deck on a milling machine before....?


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## Effjh (2/2/17)

I don't think clones are killing the HE market, as far as I can see the vast majority (obviously there are exceptions) of people who buy clones, would never want to or afford to pay the premium of an authentic. The guys who dabble in the HE market still spend their cash on the authentic product, so business as usual. As @Rob Fisher mentioned, the Kryton authentic sold out 10 000 units in 24 hours, I reckon just as many clones will sell, and the buyers would never have bought an authentic any way.

I agree it is blatant IP theft and probably morally wrong (could argue most have no issue ripping TV shows/ movies / music off the internet for free), but I think we over estimate the impact clones have on the authentic manufacturers's sales. And it gives people who would not have been able to afford it a taste of what the authentic is like, even if the experience is not 1:1.

Also some clones are apparently made of superior materials to the authentic, OL16 comes to mind. 

Might not be a popular opinion, but I enjoy and will continue to enjoy well made clones of gear I would never have had the experience of using before. Uncle @Rob Fisher is sure to make up for any lost revenue.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Va-poor (2/2/17)

I think it is important to consider there are three general levels. HE, authentic and clones. I will never pay R1000+ for an rda. To me it is not worth the cost. I will however pay R500 for Chinese authentics like the troll. To me the value to cost is right. While clones may be inferior quality they afford me the opportunity to play with other designs that would be out of my reach. I will get $5 worth of value out of a goon clone I have coming I'm not sure I'd get 20 times that.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Lingogrey (2/2/17)

If cloners are branded as nothing more than thieves of IP, another thing to keep in mind is the partial validity of the argument that not only is "the receiver as guilty as the stealer" (although I prefer to buy authentics, I have bought good quality clones and will most likely do so again if I find the price / availability of an authentic prohibitive - so I was and will probably remain guilty), but also that the "dealer is as guilty as the stealer". A number of high profile supporting vendors on this forum, respected by most members, stock a variety of clone items. If the manufacturers are branded as highly unethical, then surely those vendors who support the continuation of their activities should be subjected to the same standards? (to make it clear, personally I do NOT have any problem with vendors offering this _option_ and in my estimation the general ethical standards of the vaping industry - bar one big name - in South Africa are of the highest in any industry. I am simply pointing to consistent reasoning) 

I generally prefer to purchase an authentic item in order to support the original designers of an item and also (more selfishly) simply to be assured of the quality control of the product that I buy. However, not only are some authentic products financially out of reach of the likes of me - but with the rise of the high end scene it seems that some items are only available to those with the consistent financial means, connections, and time / devoted passion to have timeous access to the people and groups that offer these products. An example would be where the Narda RDA seemed to be simply unavailable (except for those willing to pay vastly inflated prices to that of even the original price) or even the abovementioned first (10 000) run of Krytens selling out within a day. In such cases, where the price and desirability of an item seems to be based on the very fact of it's exclusivity (_and _if a company has not taken legal measures to prohibit the cloning of their item - which mostly does not seem to be the case), I cannot see how making good quality clones (yes - they won't be as good as the authentic - but will offer some idea of the vaping experience) available to the general public can be harmful to the designing company or to consumers. In cases, which I have also seen, of very reasonably priced and commonly available items being cloned - this argument does become somewhat less valid (it's also interesting to keep in mind that the companies manufacturing some of these products - such as Wotofo - began largely as cloning manufacturers; most likely enabling them to build up their reputation and financial means to become what they are now).

The general argument that I have seen justifying the price of items in the high end scene seems to be that of supply and demand. If this argument is valid (once again, barring where legal prohibition has been established), the same would ring true for that of cheaper clones. In my humble opinion, a good quality vape (granted - we don't absolutely need clones to offer this. Reasonably priced and widely available good quality authentic options are also on offer) should be available for 'the masses', whilst the industry should of course provide the option of 'the best of the best' for those who can afford it and who wish to spend their available funds in such a way.

Reactions: Like 8


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## DoubleD (2/2/17)

Effjh said:


> Also some clones are apparently made of superior materials to the authentic, OL16 comes to mind.




 Huh?

Tell me more? where and when lol I have three authentics' and have never seen the clone up close except pictures but I'd still love to know how you came to that idea.


Edit: @Effjh I'm removing my 'disagree' rating on your comment because I actually agree on most of what you said but whom ever led you to believe that the clone O16 is superior in anyway over the authentic is sorely misguided and doesn't know what the word superior means lol

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Creative 1


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## picautomaton (2/2/17)

Is there any vaping gear that has been patented? No one is really inventing anything new, just a variation of an existing theme. So even high end gear is a modified copy of an existing idea. Clones allow all to play with stuff that would be otherwise unaffordable however with a quality compromise.
You get what you pay for, and at least we can all get something we can afford. The cloners are very very bad boys n girls,

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Cespian (2/2/17)

IMO, the cloned hardware market exists and continues to exist because majority of "high performance" vape gear is horribly overpriced. 

Consider these "Custom built PWM box mods" (etc.) being sold for R2.5K+... So many of us have poeped together boxes like these (using quality components) and it costed around R800 buying non-bulk parts. Cosmetics would cost maybe another R150 at most. Now imagine the guys building these boxes in bulk, buying components in bulk, anodizing (or whatever process of adding cosmetics) in bulk. 
Consider tube mechs, like the Petri - sold for R2k as well, marketed with a silly gimmick of having gold plated screw threads. It makes absolutely no sense because the rest of the thing is alluminium and gold is the worse material you could have on your threads because its very mallable. R2K for a milled piece of allumium and gimmick performance enhancing.
An authentic Velocity (V1) costed around $110... for an atty... $110 - excluding shipping into SA... no one could explain to me back then WHY it was so expensive besides for "oh you know, it has this revolutionary build deck". A clone (a really good clone in fact), costed me $12 - I still have it, it still works absolutely brilliantly, looks amazing, feels amazing (quality wise), original post screws, original 510 pin, original insulators - absolutely nothing wrong with it, and its been over a year. 

These costs exists because people are buying it at these costs. HE (or UC [uniquely crafted] as I call it) is a completely different ball game, but still way too overpriced IMO. Sorry to be frank, but yes, consumers can put a price on someones craftmanship.

I feel that theres so much exploitation in this young and vastly ignorant market (we have had the juice discussion already - but it puts the cherry on the cake).

--END RANT--

Reactions: Like 8 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Christos (2/2/17)

Daniel said:


> Don't get petty now I merely posed the question.....


I'm not trying to be petty.
I'm just hilighting the fact that people are willing to use certain clone gear but not other clone gear, in a humorous manner.

The fact that I am not willing to use clones and would rather wait 3 months saving for an authentic atty is frankly the same for batteries.
In a society where instant gratification is the norm, a lot of anger and resentment appears when members of that society can't get what they want.

Undoubtedly, clones have a place but the general trend is to rationalise why a clone is better than an authentic and I think this argument is illogical.

Also people claiming a R500 mod performs just as well as a R3000 or R7000 mod is illogical. 
Sure if you can test both etc then the argument takes some systematic approach and can be based on merit and not someone's opinion on how much a mod should cost.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Daniel (2/2/17)

Christos said:


> I'm not trying to be petty.
> I'm just hilighting the fact that people are willing to use certain clone gear but not other clone gear, in a humorous manner.
> 
> The fact that I am not willing to use clones and would rather wait 3 months saving for an authentic atty is frankly the same for batteries.
> ...



Luckily everyone has their own opinion , it's what makes this community great  

I think the arguments posed are very logical , the same materials are used (on the proper clones , not the churned out shyte) a tube mech is a piece of metal tube , the contacts is what makes it hit hard etc IMO so use good FD parts and you good to go.....

If you want to pay R3k for a tube mech then good on you , I think it's illogical


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## Christos (2/2/17)

Daniel said:


> Luckily everyone has their own opinion , it's what makes this community great
> 
> I think the arguments posed are very logical , the same materials are used (on the proper clones , not the churned out shyte) a tube mech is a piece of metal tube , the contacts is what makes it hit hard etc IMO so use good FD parts and you good to go.....
> 
> If you want to pay R3k for a tube mech then good on you , I think it's illogical


Speaking of FD, I have newer received a BF 510 that did not leak.

I think it slightly inappropriate to make fun of the way people want to spend their money. If you dont want to buy a 3k mech thats your business but nothing illogical about how i want to spend my cash. 

Perhaps you think its not prudent or wasteful. Your opinion.

Also, who is being petty now

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Huffapuff (2/2/17)

Cespian said:


> Consider tube mechs, like the Petri - sold for R2k as well, marketed with a silly gimmick of having gold plated screw threads. It makes absolutely no sense because the rest of the thing is alluminium and gold is the worse material you could have on your threads because its very mallable. R2K for a milled piece of allumium and gimmick performance enhancing.



A tube mech is the simplest of artifacts and yet one of the most expensive things you can buy. Here I can totally understand why someone would rather have a clone over an authentic. What people are paying for is the cosmetic aspect and the name brand. Beyond dodgy threading or a crap button there is little to distinguish between a clone vs authentic performance wise. All a tube mech has to do is hold a battery and conduct electricity, everything else is just bells and whistles.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Clouds4Days (2/2/17)

I think this whole auth vs clone is just nonsense to be honest.

A cloner will always try get it as close as possible to a authentic but it will never be a authentic.

This principal is in our everday lives and all comes down to are you willing to spend the money on it and thats all this argument or opinions really about.

Why dont we go to the chinease and buy a fake Nike shirt for R100 and a authentic is R400 ?

Why didnt we buy those crappy pall mall cigs instead of Marlbro, Peter S etc...

Cause at the end of day authentic is always King.


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## Cespian (2/2/17)

Huffapuff said:


> A tube mech is the simplest of artifacts and yet one of the most expensive things you can buy. Here I can totally understand why someone would rather have a clone over an authentic. What people are paying for is the cosmetic aspect and the name brand. Beyond dodgy threading or a crap button there is little to distinguish between a clone vs authentic performance wise. All a tube mech has to do is hold a battery and conduct electricity, everything else is just bells and whistles.



Before we get told its only our opinion, I have actually tested this theory with a couple of tube mechs. It was shortly after I asked about the Petri tube mech and its "amazing" gold threads. I used my Clone SMPL (Epic Clone) as a control device which I paid about R100 for. Tested the Authentic Limitless and Authentic Wotofo (Phantom I think it was called), and some unbranded thing a friend of mine got in a bundle somewhere. The Voltage and Resistance difference was so negligable that the voltmeter couldnt read it (it jumped a little between 4.16 and 4.17V meaning the difference was in the 3rd decimal place).

Reactions: Like 1


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## KZOR (2/2/17)

Daniel said:


> no one bats an eyelid about cloning juices...



Not true ........ I definitely bat my eyelids but it is only because I have my own ADV recipes.
It is in my nature to try and be original.
I defo will never vape someone else's and I think any respectable DIY member should not either.
If you are a beginner and are still finding your feet then by all means.
I understand that clone recipes are made available to try and it is not the real deal although very close in some instances. I realise how much work goes into coming up with a great juice and the owner has and deserves the right to capitalise on that since he/she earned it.
I decided to share my recipes and hence have no problem when someone makes and vapes it.

Just my opinion guys.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Clouds4Days (2/2/17)

KZOR said:


> Not true ........ I definitely bat my eyelids but it is only because I have my own ADV recipes.
> It is in my nature to try and be original.
> I defo will never vape someone else's and I think any respectable DIY member should not either.
> If you are a beginner and are still finding your feet then by all means.
> ...



Agree @KZOR , although i believe there is nothing wrong with making a clone juice for personal use.
But the minute one starts cloning and selling juice at a mark up to Friends and friends of friends that i think is not right.

If you make it for a buddy and charge him your cost price which is around R1 a ml using 2mg nic and 10% flavouring than that is fine too cause some mates do need a helping hand sometimes because of cost reasons.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Andre (2/2/17)

Most juice makers are highly chuffed if someone tries to clone/interpret a juice of theirs. I see that often on other forums. 

For me it was far more of an effort to clone/interpret Bowden's Mate than to make an original.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Effjh (2/2/17)

DoubleD said:


> Huh?
> 
> Tell me more? where and when lol I have three authentics' and have never seen the clone up close except pictures but I'd still love to know how you came to that idea.
> 
> ...



Hi @DoubleD, 

I don't mind a 'disagree' rating, we can't all agree, but I took it you re-read my statement where I said "apparently". It is something I caught on another forum and not entirely my view as I'm no SS expert, but it does seem to be valid in a sense. 

So I'll tell you more. According to the post, and it looks to be accurate, the Authentic OL16 is made from 304 Stainless Steel. The clone is made from 316 Stainless Steel. 

The difference: http://www.reliance-foundry.com/blog/304-vs-316-stainless-steel#gref

"It has almost the same physical and mechanical properties as 304 stainless steel and contains a similar material make-up. The difference is that 316 stainless steel incorporates about 2 to 3 percent molybdenum, which increases corrosion resistance—particularly against chlorides and other industrial solvents."

"The difference between 304 and 316 stainless steel is the presence of molybdenum, which provides a much higher degree of corrosion resistance -"

Which seems to indicate 316 SS could be considered a superior material to 304 SS. 

I thought it's interesting since it is something that is often brought up when criticising clones ("inferior materials are used"). Now I'll agree the overall quality of machining on the clone is inferior to the authentic, but this does seem to indicate that the clone is superior in at least one way to the authentic.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## DoubleD (2/2/17)

Effjh said:


> Hi @DoubleD,
> 
> I don't mind a 'disagree' rating, we can't all agree, but I took it you re-read my statement where I said "apparently". It is something I caught on another forum and not entirely my view as I'm no SS expert, but it does seem to be valid in a sense.
> 
> ...



I'm well aware of the differences of 316 and 304 but how does one know the clone is made out 316 a part from be told by FT, 3fvape , ect?
Or are we assuming china uses the best materials when making clones

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Clouds4Days (2/2/17)

DoubleD said:


> I'm well aware of the differences of 316 and 304 but how does one know the clone is made out 316 a part from be told by FT, 3fvape , ect?
> Or are we assuming china uses the best materials when making clones



On fastech they say made from 316 but who knows if thats true or not.
Some clones say 1:1 and they sure as hell are not

Reactions: Like 1


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## DoubleD (2/2/17)

Clouds4Days said:


> On fastech they say made from 316 but who knows if thats true or not.
> Some clones say 1:1 and they sure as hell are not



Which is my point

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Wash (2/2/17)

Clouds4Days said:


> Why didnt we buy those crappy pall mall cigs instead of Marlbro, Peter S etc...



...I used to smoke Pall Malls...

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## Clouds4Days (2/2/17)

Wash said:


> ...I used to smoke Pall Malls...



And you still alive brother....... HOW?

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Wash (2/2/17)

Clouds4Days said:


> And you still alive brother....... HOW?



Years of training.
Started on the Stuyvies, hopped brands like mad before settling on Marlboros and switched to Princeton when the Marlboros became too expensive.

And even after all that, STILL managed to pull a Silver with a Twisp Clearo!

But all's well that ends well - March 13 marks a year off the stinkies!

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Clouds4Days (2/2/17)

Wash said:


> Years of training.
> Started on the Stuyvies, hopped brands like mad before settling on Marlboros and switched to Princeton when the Marlboros became too expensive.
> 
> And even after all that, STILL managed to pull a Silver with a Twisp Clearo!
> ...



I hear you brother.
Hell i also started on Peter Blue when was around +/-R25 a box but after a couple years was killing me the cost at around R38 a day so went onto Winston Blue wich was around R22 a box.

But im waisting more on my clouds now then ever before 

But i gave up my RC hobby so it compensates now for my vaping hobby

Reactions: Like 1


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## Effjh (2/2/17)

DoubleD said:


> I'm well aware of the differences of 316 and 304 but how does one know the clone is made out 316 a part from be told by FT, 3fvape , ect?
> Or are we assuming china uses the best materials when making clones



Ok I see what this is about for you, "I paid a lot more than you so it must be lies". Look I don't know if it is truly 316 or not, but I find the knee jerk reactions both amusing and expected. You guys paid A LOT for your OL16's..

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Spydro (2/2/17)

There is a market for authentic's, and unfortunately there is also one for clones. 

Some folks seem to prefer clones. That's fine, it's their choice. I do not support cloners, I choose to buy authentic. And that has held true all during my life, not just with the vaping related. 

I'm not going to drive a peddle car when I can drive a sports car. 

You don't have to be a millionaire. Most things can be afforded if you want something bad enough to earn it by curbing IGS and saving up for it. (IGS - instant gratification syndrome)

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3


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## RichJB (2/2/17)

In vaping, as in all things, the free market rules. There is a market for HE and a market for clones, just as there is a market for Versace outfits and for Pep or Mr Price cut-price clothes.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## DoubleD (2/2/17)

Effjh said:


> Ok I see what this is about for you, "I paid a lot more than you so it must be lies". Look I don't know if it is truly 316 or not, but I find the knee jerk reactions both amusing and expected. You guys paid A LOT for your OL16's..



lol okay bud  Fastech must be telling the truth. Luckily we have you too show us the 'light' 

Peace

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Effjh (2/2/17)

DoubleD said:


> lol okay bud  Fastech must be telling the truth. Luckily we have you too show us the 'light'
> 
> Peace

Reactions: Funny 1


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## kev mac (2/2/17)

Daniel said:


> With all the chatter about cloning and reverse engineering I thought it best to bring up the ever present uneasy topic of clones. Not what the topic is about at all whole different ball game in my eyes (watch The Island of Dr Moreau)....
> 
> What this is about is the ever present pretense of 'aurhentic' vs 'cloned' hardware.
> 
> ...


I feel it can be hit or miss with clones. I 've bought ones that are good quality and could pass the "Pepsi"challenge,but have also gotten utter pieces of crap.However it is nice when you get lucky and find that really good one that preforms and is a quality product at a fraction of the cost.Ilke anything else you need to do your homework.Some reviewers do comparisons between clones and authentic gear and between different clones themselves.Geeky Vapes is a great site that comes to mind in this regard.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Blu_Marlin (2/2/17)

Effjh said:


> Hi @DoubleD,
> 
> I don't mind a 'disagree' rating, we can't all agree, but I took it you re-read my statement where I said "apparently". It is something I caught on another forum and not entirely my view as I'm no SS expert, but it does seem to be valid in a sense.
> 
> ...



I`m not going to get into the whole clone vs authentic robust discussion here. I have a ss304 OL16 and boy oh boy am I glad I stay in Gauteng.. No more trips down to the coast for it

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## gdigitel (2/2/17)

The clone supporters better be greatfull to the authentic supporters cause if it was not for the authentic supporters there would be no new developments and designs for the cloners to clone. R&D costs time and money, when you buying a clone you are not paying for that, you just pay for duplication. In essence a cloner does not revolutionise and if he does he is no longer a cloner.
Then there is the flip side of the coin where authentic and clones are made by the same company in order to maximise revenue streams in both the markets.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## DoubleD (2/2/17)

Effjh said:


>


 Thats exactly the gif I thought of hahahahahaha nice

Reactions: Like 1


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## Christos (2/2/17)

Effjh said:


> Ok I see what this is about for you, "I paid a lot more than you so it must be lies". Look I don't know if it is truly 316 or not, but I find the knee jerk reactions both amusing and expected. You guys paid A LOT for your OL16's..



This argument is flawed to say the least. 
I have been running an OL16 for 10 months as my daily vape often going through 30ml+ a day and it still looks and performs like the day I bought it. No rust, no dark spots. No discolouration whatsoever. Also still using the same o rings. 

I challenge anyone with a clone Ol16 to send it to me so I can test it for 10 months. Parallel tests produce results and facts. Not speculation.

On the point that we paid to much this is relative if you consider that I will run the atty for another few years daily. 

Too expensive is relative when you look at ROI. In all honesty it probably works out cheaper in the long run for me anyways. 

If you want new gear every month then great. Go for clones and whatever is affordable. 
I'm not in the habit of changing setups regularly.

Whatever floats your goat.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Funny 1


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## Effjh (2/2/17)

Christos said:


> This argument is flawed to say the least.
> I have been running an OL16 for 10 months as my daily vape often going through 30ml+ a day and it still looks and performs like the day I bought it. No rust, no dark spots. No discolouration whatsoever. Also still using the same o rings.
> 
> I challenge anyone with a clone Ol16 to send it to me so I can test it for 10 months. Parallel tests produce results and facts. Not speculation.
> ...



"but I find the knee jerk reactions both amusing and expected."


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## Silver (2/2/17)

Hi guys

Please play the ball and not the man

This is a great discussion and its great to hear everyone's opinion - but if you start making it personal then we will just lock the thread and that will be sad.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Daniel (2/2/17)

Christos said:


> This argument is flawed to say the least.
> I have been running an OL16 for 10 months as my daily vape often going through 30ml+ a day and it still looks and performs like the day I bought it. No rust, no dark spots. No discolouration whatsoever. Also still using the same o rings.
> 
> I challenge anyone with a clone Ol16 to send it to me so I can test it for 10 months. Parallel tests produce results and facts. Not speculation.
> ...


I'll take that challenge if you take up my blind test challenge

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Effjh (2/2/17)

After being asked to explain myself. I posted some info I found interesting from another forum, clearly stated they don't necessarily reflect my views on the matter and looked forward to an open discussion. Instead here we are with guys feverishly defending/justifying their purchases. Guess what, you don't need to, I could honestly care less how you spend your money.

I find it funny because I knew the peeps who spent a lot of money on an item would flip out a bit at the idea of what I posted (you shouldn't), that's the only reason I pointed the cost out.

@Christos, I have a spare clone OL16 you can test drive IF you are willing to give it a fair shake and not be blinded by any clone vs authentic bias.

PS. Actually anyone know where one can get it evaluated to determine the material it is made from, seeing as my post was specifically and only referring to the material and nothing else. Would be interesting to know if it is indeed 316 SS.

Saying it is not is the only "speculation" I see here.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Christos (2/2/17)

Daniel said:


> I'll take that challenge if you take up my blind test challenge


Let's put this OL16 authentic "hate" to rest. 
@Effjh, I would test the clone if I could get basic features to work but unfortunately the clone Ol16 can't even be coiled without posing a risk to myself on a mech.
The clone is crude in comparison with respect to machining and attention to detail like sharp edges etc but that's expected from a clone.

Unfortunately the clone fails to even make it onto a mod because coiling without loose wire is not possible.

One of these is a fake and the other an authentic.

The challenge is hard to accept when building on a clone that can't even clamp your wire. The screws have about a 1mm gap fully screwed in so it's hard to vape something that doesn't clamp wire.
Also the base of the post screws are not flat making clamping difficult.

Orings failed on the clone.

See if you can spot the difference.












I'm not one to review clones or any atty for that matter. 
I have also refrained from saying the clone is garbage before but in light of this discussion the authentic is actually usable and thus making it the clear winner.

As I said before, you are free to buy the clone if you so wish but there is no need to bash an authentic or to bash what others are chosing to spend their hard earned cash on.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3 | Funny 1


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## Greyz (2/2/17)



Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 4


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## DoubleD (2/2/17)

316 bru

Reactions: Funny 2


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## SAVapeGear (2/2/17)

More like 102

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 2


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## Clouds4Days (2/2/17)

@Christos i 100% agree , there is nothing wrong with a clone but a authentic will always be better. Even if the only diffrence from the authentic to the clone is just the grub screws that are heat treated so they dont strip, it still means the authentic is better.

"It doesnt matter if you win by a inch or by a mile, winning is winning"
-Vin Diesel


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## Effjh (2/2/17)

Christos said:


> Let's put this OL16 authentic "hate" to rest.
> @Effjh, I would test the clone if I could get basic features to work but unfortunately the clone Ol16 can't even be coiled without posing a risk to myself on a mech.
> The clone is crude in comparison with respect to machining and attention to detail like sharp edges etc but that's expected from a clone.
> 
> ...



Where did you get that clone from so fast?? I haven't even sent it to yet! Thought you needed one to test? Oh wait are you posting someone elses experiences as your own?

I am utterly confused, in fact you are going off about every single thing about the clone that is not relevant to the info I posted THE MATERIAL. I even stated the machining leaves a lot to be desired. There was never any "authentic OL16 hate".

 This is too much for one night. Have a good night guys, I think I inadvertently trolled this thread into the ground.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Greyz (2/2/17)

IMO I think that clones might actually help boost the sales of Authentic's. Yes agreed, there will always be sales lost to clones which should have gone to the creators of the Authentic but then again there's the flip side. 
Using myself as an example, I've ordered myself a Goon LP 24mm 1:1 clone and if it's good I'll be saving up and buying myself an Authentic. In my case I wouldn't mind dumping R200 into a clone and then finding I don't like the deck or the vape or the air flow etc. It's better than spending 1K and finding this out. 
Although the clone isn't an accurate representation of what the Authentic will be like, it should still be a fair comparison, or at least enough to give me an idea of whether I'm going to sell a kidney and get that Authentic.

Just my 2c on this matter... now where's my damn popcorn gone?!

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## DoubleD (2/2/17)

Effjh said:


> Where did you get that clone from so fast?? I haven't even sent it to yet! Thought you needed one to test? Oh wait are you posting someone elses experiences as your own?
> 
> I am utterly confused, in fact you are going off about every single thing about the clone that is not relevant to the info I posted THE MATERIAL. I even stated the machining leaves a lot to be desired. There was never any "authentic OL16 hate".
> 
> This is too much for one night. Have a good night guys, I think I inadvertently trolled this thread into the ground.



well done mate, you're an amazing troll

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Clouds4Days (2/2/17)

Greyz said:


> IMO I think that clones might actually help boost the sales of Authentic's. Yes agreed, there will always be sales lost to clones which should have gone to the creators of the Authentic but then again there's the flip side.
> Using myself as an example, I've ordered myself a Goon LP 24mm 1:1 clone and if it's good I'll be saving up and buying myself an Authentic. In my case I wouldn't mind dumping R200 into a clone and then finding I don't like the deck or the vape or the air flow etc. It's better than spending 1K and finding this out.
> Although the clone isn't an accurate representation of what the Authentic will be like, it should still be a fair comparison, or at least enough to give me an idea of whether I'm going to sell a kidney and get that Authentic.
> 
> Just my 2c on this matter... now where's my damn popcorn gone?!



The only down side with clones for testing purposes is sometimes you get really crappy one and that could ruin the experience and throw you off from buying a authentic.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Christos (2/2/17)

Effjh said:


> Where did you get that clone from so fast?? I haven't even sent it to yet! Thought you needed one to test? Oh wait are you posting someone elses experiences as your own?
> 
> I am utterly confused, in fact you are going off about every single thing about the clone that is not relevant to the info I posted THE MATERIAL. I even stated the machining leaves a lot to be desired. There was never any "authentic OL16 hate".
> 
> This is too much for one night. Have a good night guys, I think I inadvertently trolled this thread into the ground.


I'll gladly test a clone that works. For science and stuff. I'll still buy authentic. 

The hate is not from yourself per se but it's a recurring theme that the atty just costs too much.
Owning a clone and not pointing out its flaws on a public forum so people can make their own mind up has been my aproach until a while back when I got gatvol.

I'll gladly pay R3000 for another if I need more.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Huffapuff (3/2/17)

Greyz said:


> Using myself as an example, I've ordered myself a Goon LP 24mm 1:1 clone and if it's good I'll be saving up and buying myself an Authentic. In my case I wouldn't mind dumping R200 into a clone and then finding I don't like the deck or the vape or the air flow etc. It's better than spending 1K and finding this out.
> Although the clone isn't an accurate representation of what the Authentic will be like, it should still be a fair comparison, or at least enough to give me an idea of whether I'm going to sell a kidney and get that Authentic.



Y'know you can watch review videos to get that info


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## Polar (3/2/17)

Said this before and I'll say it again.


There is a market for clone devices for a reason.
There are very few "original ideas" everything else is a copy of a copy of a copy.
Competition has never been a bad thing, in fact, If the originals are worth the extreme pricing clones might as well be made from chocolate.
So If any of you guys have recently driven a car, or used a phone, or brushed you're teeth (or clone teeth).... Well, I'm sure we get the point here.


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## Christos (3/2/17)

Polar said:


> Said this before and I'll say it again.
> 
> 
> There is a market for clone devices for a reason.
> ...



What does a reo have to do with anything? 

P.S. the reo was the first squonker I.E. the innovative idea.
Still waiting to see a usable reo clone


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## Daniel (3/2/17)

Christos said:


> I'll gladly test a clone that works. For science and stuff. I'll still buy authentic.
> 
> The hate is not from yourself per se but it's a recurring theme that the atty just costs too much.
> Owning a clone and not pointing out its flaws on a public forum so people can make their own mind up has been my aproach until a while back when I got gatvol.
> ...



I own and use the clone OL16 daily. Does it have its flaws yes 100% my first one I got from FT was utter crap. The one I got from GB better still the top cap is very tight the screws are very easy to strip. The machining does also leave a lot to be desired sharp edges etc. Plain simple fact I don't WANT to pay that much for an authentic. I can live with the niggles, does it give the same flavor as an authentic? I don't know will have to do the test and see  

I get the feeling you don't want to take up my flavor blind test as you probably know there's not a noticeable difference? 

Anyway let's put this to bed. Each one to his own and la die da kumbaja...


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## Polar (3/2/17)

Christos said:


> What does a reo have to do with anything?
> 
> P.S. the reo was the first squonker I.E. the innovative idea.
> Still waiting to see a usable reo clone


Yeah, I cloned (hehe) another post, lets get lost in the details there.
Anyone of reasonable understanding should get the point perfectly


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## Polar (3/2/17)

Christos said:


> P.S. the reo was the first squonker I.E. the innovative idea.


What was next squonker IE. after the reo?


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## SAVapeGear (3/2/17)

Polar said:


> What was next squonker IE. after the reo?


The orange.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Thanks 1


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## Polar (3/2/17)

SAVapeGear said:


> The orange.


Point is should there only have been the reo, or is it ok for other squonkers to exist, because basically these will have copied the idea?

Perhaps if original designers keep up with current innovation and keep their pricing reasonable, there would be no market for other similar devices ever.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Clouds4Days (3/2/17)



Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 4


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## zadiac (3/2/17)

I have an authentic Pollux RDA and 4 clones. No difference between the authentic and the clones, apart from the price. They all vape the same and I enjoy all of them the same. Yes, I still use them, even if the design is quite old (in vaping terms).
I don't mind buying clones. If it's kak, then it's kak. It's a risk you take when you buy a clone. Some people just can't afford the authentics and some clones are built extremely well, like the Pollux ones. I'm very happy with them.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Polar (3/2/17)

Clouds4Days said:


> View attachment 83854


We might very well end up talking about Twisp.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Clouds4Days (3/2/17)

When i started reading this thread i was excited to see diffrent views and i got my popcorn.

Now it feels like im watching Days of our lives or Bold and the Beutiful, same thing over and over... Its getting old now... 

Lets just let everyone enjoy their gear be it fake or authentic as long as we enjoy what we have and are happy then good for everyone.

Vape on....

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## E.T. (3/2/17)

Clouds4Days said:


> When i started reading this thread i was excited to see diffrent views and i got my popcorn.
> 
> Now it feels like im watching Days of our lives or Bold and the Beutiful, same thing over and over... Its getting old now...
> 
> ...



I agree fully, i think its a matter of who can afford (or is willing to pay the price) to buy athentic, I bought a original Hadaly for my Leprechaun (stuggled with it, but love the flavour when I get it right) wanted a another one, bought a clone for the Reo because I couldn't afford another Authentic. The vape and look basically the same, but only time will tell how long the clone lasts. If I had the finances I would not buy clones, but it is what it is... There will always be a market for both....

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## SAVapeGear (3/2/17)

RIP Dolly.

Moving on.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Spydro (3/2/17)

Polar said:


> What was next squonker IE. after the reo?



Squonkers date back to sometime in 2009. Technically the first commercially available was the Juice Box that had an integrated atty. They had issues that could only be resolved by sending them back to Carlos, and his inability to fulfill orders soon caused the death of this device. Maybe an inspiration maybe not, but Robert O'Neil soon after created what became the most commercially successful squonker of all time worldwide, the Reo, and started shipping them in early 2010. Uncountable vapers worldwide took up squonkling because of them. Reos are called the gold standard that all others of their kind are compared to.

Two of my most cherished Reos are early originals that are still in mint condition... an OG Mini (14500) and an OG VV Grand (2 18350's in series).

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 3 | Informative 2


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## RichJB (3/2/17)

Christos said:


> Too expensive is relative when you look at ROI. In all honesty it probably works out cheaper in the long run for me anyways.



I have probably a somewhat different view of what ROI entails. Your view of ROI appears to be "goedkoop is duurkoop, if you buy cheap it will pack up in two months, if you buy expensive it will last for years. After five years, you will have spent less on the one authentic than the seven clones you bought". That is fine but my view of ROI is:

1) What is the ROI in terms of my life rather than just my hobby? If I have R10k to spare, what gives me better ROI - a HE mod which will be organic dust at the bottom of a landfill in twenty years time, or R10k invested into my bond or unit trusts? In my experience, there is little lasting value in shiny consumer toys.

2) Smoking was not a fashion statement to me, vaping isn't either. I was never the type to have a sterling silver cigarette case and a gold-plated designer lighter. I used the cardboard box the smokes were sold in and a flick-o-the-Bic. Disposable items - buy 'em, use 'em up, throw 'em away. Go as cheap as possible. I never saw the point of spending extravagantly on something that was killing me. Vaping might not be killing me but it's still a functional item, like a kettle. All I ask of a kettle is that it boils water efficiently and lasts a reasonably long time for what I pay. Which brings me to...

3) ROI on product longevity. Your experience is that clones/cheap items don't last, my experience is that they do. I have four mods, none of which cost me more than R500. I haven't had any problems from any of them. I have ten atties, none of which cost me more than R520. I haven't had problems from any of them. No broken glass, no bent or broken posts, no stripped grub nuts, no cracked insulators, no perished/snapped o-rings, no bent or broken 510s. Have I been lucky? Probably. But I have seen enough threads/posts on this forum about broken gear to know that it's not restricted to cheap gear. I have seen people complaining about Yihi and DNA boards packing up, just as often as I've seen posts about cheapie Eleaf boards packing up. My view is that if you have a reasonable chance of any mod packing up, I'd rather drop R500 on a mod than R5k. I can throw away a broken R500 mod and laugh about it. Not so with a broken R5k mod. Similarly, if someone wants to spend R5k on a beginner setup, I'll always advise them to buy two cheap setups rather than one premium setup. With two cheap setups, one can bomb and you still have the other to vape until you can get repairs/vape mail. With one more expensive set-up, if it breaks, you're either paying through the nose just to get a vape or you're back to cigs.

4) ROI on vape quality. The two atties I vape most are my Velocity and Recoil clones. Together they cost me R500, the same as my Avo 24. I don't detect any better vape quality from my Avo. I have the same with juice. Some will tell you that they only vape Cuttwood juice at R380 for 30ml. Is it better than my DIY juice? I don't know, I've never tasted it. But I'm more than willing to concede that it is better and tastier than my DIY juice. Is it "13x the price" better? Absolutely not. I am happy with my vape quality so I see no need to spend more on it. I have other priorities for my money.

Of course, others will differ and have different priorities. And the free market should cater to all. I'm just giving my view of what ROI means.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Winner 9


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## Daniel (3/2/17)

And that , as they say was the final word , thanks @RichJB , mods please lock thread.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Clouds4Days (3/2/17)

But i want the Final word @Daniel 

The End

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 2


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## picautomaton (3/2/17)

The type of lung disease Dolly developed is most common in older sheep. And in January 2002, it was revealed that Dolly had developed arthritis prematurely. She was cloned using a cell taken from a healthy *six-year-old* sheep, and was *born on 5 July 1996* at the Roslin Institute, Edinburgh, Scotland.Feb 14, 2003

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 3


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## RichJB (3/2/17)

picautomaton said:


> The type of lung disease Dolly developed is most common in older sheep.



Sheep are also extremely susceptible to popcorn lung. Which is why popcorn factories aren't allowed to hire them, and vets recommend that they don't vape, or at least avoid juices that contain diacetyl. Is it coincidence that you've never seen a sheep vaping while operating a machine in a popcorn factory? I think not.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Funny 9


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## umzungu (3/2/17)

RichJB said:


> Sheep are also extremely susceptible to popcorn lung. Which is why popcorn factories aren't allowed to hire them, and vets recommend that they don't vape, or at least avoid juices that contain diacetyl. Is it coincidence that you've never seen a sheep vaping while operating a machine in a popcorn factory? I think not.



Does that mean that all the people here who blindly jump onto the next "best" trend are at risk?

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Christos (3/2/17)

RichJB said:


> I have probably a somewhat different view of what ROI entails. Your view of ROI appears to be "goedkoop is duurkoop, if you buy cheap it will pack up in two months, if you buy expensive it will last for years. After five years, you will have spent less on the one authentic than the seven clones you bought". That is fine but my view of ROI is:
> 
> 1) What is the ROI in terms of my life rather than just my hobby? If I have R10k to spare, what gives me better ROI - a HE mod which will be organic dust at the bottom of a landfill in twenty years time, or R10k invested into my bond or unit trusts? In my experience, there is little lasting value in shiny consumer toys.
> 
> ...


Best ROI on vape gear which was clear in my post on what I meant for you is to stop vaping.

On that note, I'm sure most people don't need a vw or whatever - a bicycle will do.
Rather pump the money into investments that will make money etc.

Whatever works for you is great.

I reiterate whatever you want to buy and whatever works for you is great. 
The authentic bashing that most people are doing is not necessary. 
We all have a choice to buy whatever we want and at whatever price point that suits us.

Reactions: Agree 2


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