# 26650 Batteries For Sub-ohm In Mech Mod - Current Drain Questions



## 1am7h30n3

Hi Guys,

Quick question for the mech mod and battery gurus.

So I bought a Hades mod clone (26650) from vapeking yesterday based on the fact that the 26650 efest batteries on the website state 60A vs the 18650 purple efest rating of 35A.

But now I read from this site:
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Efest IMR26650 3000mAh (Red) 2014 UK.html

This site says that the burst pulse current is 60A but that the constant discharge current is only 15A (vs the purple efest constant discharge being 35A).

Ok so basically, isn't 15A constant discharge a bit low for serious sub-ohm? I've done a 0.5ohm build for now which is pulling a max of 8.4A on a fresh charged battery, which still leaves me a small margin of safety.

I want to go for lower ohms, was planning to go for 0.3ohm (when I thought the battery was "60A"), but is this safe for use with this battery? That will pull 14A on a fresh charged battery, which is still below the continuous discharge limit (but not with any safety margin - I would be scared of this!), however it's miles below the 60A pulse discharge limit. So my question is, is this safe to use the 60A "pulse" limit or is 15A the hard and fast limit?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## drew

1am7h30n3 said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Quick question for the mech mod and battery gurus.
> 
> So I bought a Hades mod clone (26650) from vapeking yesterday based on the fact that the 26650 efest batteries on the website state 60A vs the 18650 purple efest rating of 35A.
> 
> But now I read from this site:
> http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Efest IMR26650 3000mAh (Red) 2014 UK.html
> 
> This site says that the burst pulse current is 60A but that the constant discharge current is only 15A (vs the purple efest constant discharge being 35A).
> 
> Ok so basically, isn't 15A constant discharge a bit low for serious sub-ohm? I've done a 0.5ohm build for now which is pulling a max of 8.4A on a fresh charged battery, which still leaves me a small margin of safety.
> 
> I want to go for lower ohms, was planning to go for 0.3ohm (when I thought the battery was "60A"), but is this safe for use with this battery? That will pull 14A on a fresh charged battery, which is still below the continuous discharge limit (but not with any safety margin - I would be scared of this!), however it's miles below the 60A pulse discharge limit. So my question is, is this safe to use the 60A "pulse" limit or is 15A the hard and fast limit?


 
@1am7h30n3 It's all marketing. You should ignore the 60A pulse limit completely, the 60A rating is like a 5000W PMPO hifi system. The pulse rating is likely based on a very short pulse, possibly milliseconds. If it's rated at 15A continuous, then that's the value you should be using as your hard limit.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Thanks 1


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## 1am7h30n3

Thanks @drew , so would a build that draws 15A be safe then or must I build in a further safety margin to that 15A limit? (perhaps do a build that draws 10A max then or even less?)


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## drew

@1am7h30n3 That really depends on how close to the edge you like to walk  I would say a minimum 20% safety margin. That would be 12A or 0.35 ohms.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## 1am7h30n3

Haha, @drew I would say I like to walk far from the edge, err on the side of safety etc!

From this chart and with a 15A limit it looks like 0.5ohm is the lowest safe build.
http://www.ecigssa.co.za/index.php?threads/sub-ohm-battery-chart.722/

Now that's depressing since the only reason I spent the extra R160 for the Hades instead of the Nemesis clone and the extra R40 for the "60A" battery was because I thought I would have more safety for sub-ohm builds.

Am I correct in saying that the 26650 is a worse performing battery for sub ohm buils (15A continuous discharge limit on 26650 vs 35A continuous discharge limit on purple efest 18650) than the purple efest?
26650: http://www.vapeking.co.za/batteries/efest-red-series-26650-60a-3000mah-flat-top-battery.html
18650: http://www.vapeking.co.za/batteries/efest-purple-series-18650-35a-2500mah-flat-top-battery.html


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## 1am7h30n3

Perhaps @Gizmo or @Stroodlepuff would be able to help out with this question?


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## drew

1am7h30n3 said:


> Haha, @drew I would say I like to walk far from the edge, err on the side of safety etc!
> 
> From this chart and with a 15A limit it looks like 0.5ohm is the lowest safe build.
> http://www.ecigssa.co.za/index.php?threads/sub-ohm-battery-chart.722/
> 
> Now that's depressing since the only reason I spent the extra R160 for the Hades instead of the Nemesis clone and the extra R40 for the "60A" battery was because I thought I would have more safety for sub-ohm builds.
> 
> Am I correct in saying that the 26650 is a worse performing battery for sub ohm buils (15A continuous discharge limit on 26650 vs 35A continuous discharge limit on purple efest 18650) than the purple efest?
> 26650: http://www.vapeking.co.za/batteries/efest-red-series-26650-60a-3000mah-flat-top-battery.html
> 18650: http://www.vapeking.co.za/batteries/efest-purple-series-18650-35a-2500mah-flat-top-battery.html


 
Yip, 0.5 is a decent safety margin. I said 20% minimum 

Correct, the 26650 you have is not as good for subohm as the 18650 efest, but not by much as this actually raises another issue of marketing winning over performance. The purple efest 35A 2500mah is actually a re-wrapped LG ICR18650HE2 with a 20A continuous discharge and a pulse rating of 35A.

Reactions: Thanks 1 | Informative 1


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## Mike

Very informative thread so far. Thanks @drew. HOwever even though the efest is 20A, it's 2500mAh. Shouldn't 26650s have a bit more of an advantage over 18650s just in terms of size? Is it just that 26650s aren't as popular so there aren't any high end jobbies being produced?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## drew

Mike said:


> Very informative thread so far. Thanks @drew. HOwever even though the efest is 20A, it's 2500mAh. Shouldn't 26650s have a bit more of an advantage over 18650s just in terms of size? Is it just that 26650s aren't as popular so there aren't any high end jobbies being produced?


 
Yip, the main advantage of the 26650's are battery life as opposed to high current draw and low sub ohm safety. There is a monster of a sony 26650 in the market though but very hard to get hold of. Sony SE US26650VT 50A continuous and 2600mah.

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Sony SE US26650VT 2600mAh (Green) UK.html

Reactions: Agree 1 | Thanks 1 | Informative 1


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## 1am7h30n3

Thanks for all the help!

Kind of wish I hadn't purchased the Hades and locked myself into 26650 now! Seems it was pretty pointless for now. Maybe some better batteries will come in some time in the future.

Battery life, well efest 18650 35A are 2500mah and the 26650 are 3000mah, so it's not a major major difference. I mean, for the extra bulk of the mod you I would have called double capacity decent, not 20% more...


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## Mike

Yea, considering a 26650 is more than double the volume, I'd expect a 5000mAh 20A bugger?

Very curious. Am I missing something here though?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Silver

drew said:


> Yip, 0.5 is a decent safety margin. I said 20% minimum
> 
> Correct, the 26650 you have is not as good for subohm as the 18650 efest, but not by much as this actually raises another issue of marketing winning over performance. The purple efest 35A 2500mah is actually a re-wrapped LG ICR18650HE2 with a 20A continuous discharge and a pulse rating of 35A.


 
Hi @drew 
I read with much interest you saying that the Purple Efest 35A 2500mah is actually a re-wrapped LG ICR. 
I thought it was an IMR battery.
If it is ICR, then that would be bad? Right?


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## ET

at least now you have the 26650 mod, now go get yourself one of those 20 ml kayfun clones

Reactions: Like 1


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## ET

or this battery looks much nicer
http://www.vapeking.co.za/batteries/efest-purple-series-26650-64a-3500mah-flat-top.html


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## MurderDoll

Need to check on the specs for the batteries I got from @Rob Fisher. See how far I can safely push them.


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## RevnLucky7

Just because Efest make shiat 26650's don't think an 18650 is going to out perform it. Have a look at the MNKE 26650

Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gizmo

I find battery life on 26650s excellent. Voltage drop excellent. As for efest I beg to differ with their latest 26650

Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk


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## Rob Fisher

MurderDoll said:


> Need to check on the specs for the batteries I got from @Rob Fisher. See how far I can safely push them.


 
Check the Vape King site... that's where they came from! 

PS No need to go to Gym once you start using them because they are a dash heavy!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Gizmo

Mnke is also only a burst of 60A. So no difference there

Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk


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## MurderDoll

Rob Fisher said:


> Check the Vape King site... that's where they came from!
> 
> PS No need to go to Gym once you start using them because they are a dash heavy!


OK. Cool! 

Ja. That panzer is a heavy beast!


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## Rob Fisher

MurderDoll said:


> OK. Cool!
> 
> Ja. That panzer is a heavy beast!


 
Did you work out the bottom button?


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## drew

Silver said:


> Hi @drew
> I read with much interest you saying that the Purple Efest 35A 2500mah is actually a re-wrapped LG ICR.
> I thought it was an IMR battery.
> If it is ICR, then that would be bad? Right?


 
Hey @Silver

EDIT: Post disappeared. The model number of the LG/Efest does suggest ICR but they actually use the same chemistry as the Sony VTC4/5's... so no problem there.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RevnLucky7

Gizmo said:


> As for efest I beg to differ with their latest 26650
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk


 
I wasn't aware that a new one was out. Just saw it on your site. Yeah, that's some pretty impressive markings.
Personally never been a fan of the Efests, but they seem to be stepping up the game.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gizmo

Lol. Efest are the most innovative battery manufacturer of the year in my humble opinion. Please let me know of one battery that beats 18650 2500mah 35A battery? 

Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Gazzacpt

Gizmo said:


> Lol. Efest are the most innovative battery manufacturer of the year in my humble opinion. Please let me know of one battery that beats 18650 2500mah 35A battery?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk


Sony VTC5 maybe

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gizmo

Incorrect. Read the specs 

Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk

Reactions: Informative 1


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## RevnLucky7

Gizmo said:


> Mnke is also only a burst of 60A. So no difference there
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk


 
But it did have a MAH Rating of 4000 correct?

I don't pay much attention to pulse or continuous discharge anymore since my latest experiments.
I run somewhere in the middle of pulse and continuous ratings. I don't fire a mod for half an hour. I fire it for about four seconds. To me that's a pulse.

Is it safe? Probably not. Do I recommend it? No. Do I do everything my mommy tells me not to? No.
0.15Ω is where I live... might as well be where I die >

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Gizmo

Also not to mention the problem of finding legitimate "sony" batteries. They are soo badly branded that the Chinese suppliers are full of clones. 

Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk


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## Gizmo

Not to mention one battery that has higher or equal to mah of 3100 with a decent amperage. There is no manufacturer. On all of efest series I feel it's impossible to beat their value, performance, innovation. 

Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## RevnLucky7

Yeah I second that branding statement.


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## MurderDoll

Rob Fisher said:


> Did you work out the bottom button?


Yeah. I did. 

You just put it back on the wrong way around. Ha ha.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## M4dm0nk3y

1am7h30n3 said:


> Thanks for all the help!
> 
> Kind of wish I hadn't purchased the Hades and locked myself into 26650 now! Seems it was pretty pointless for now. Maybe some better batteries will come in some time in the future.
> 
> Battery life, well efest 18650 35A are 2500mah and the 26650 are 3000mah, so it's not a major major difference. I mean, for the extra bulk of the mod you I would have called double capacity decent, not 20% more...


 
Mmm, a little late now; but I see VapeKing stocks the Purple Range 26650's from EFest now, and those have a 32 amp continuous discharge rate limit

Imo, 0.35ohm is good enough - unless you want to go cloud chasing I can't see the point of going lower.I myself don't see the need to go lower than 0.4 - 0.5; otherwise I go through my juice like crazy


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## Andre

Gizmo said:


> Lol. Efest are the most innovative battery manufacturer of the year in my humble opinion. Please let me know of one battery that beats 18650 2500mah 35A battery?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk


The continuous discharge rates on those are actually 20A. The 35A is a "spiking" rate. Rather misleading from Efest imo. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...3855-efest-2500-mah-35a-battery-question.html

Reactions: Agree 1


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## M4dm0nk3y

Andre said:


> The continuous discharge rates on those are actually 20A. The 35A is a "spiking" rate. Rather misleading from Efest imo. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...3855-efest-2500-mah-35a-battery-question.html


 
Agreed, I wasn't very happy when I found out (glad I never attempted some silly, ridiculously low ohm builds on my Red Efest 26650's ). Kinda sucks when you think you got a winner only to find out what you got is not that kick-a$$ after all


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## 1am7h30n3

Yeah those new purple efest that have arrived at vapeking look pretty awesome, I will be picking a few of those up.

Running a 0.4ohm build on the hades clone with the red efest 26650 with a battery voltage of 4.06V measures 3.1V between the + and - posts (screw pins where you screw the coils to) on a TOBH atty v2 clone from vapeking while firing.

All battery ratings aside, I have been running a 0.3ohm build on the TOBH atty v2 on the hades with the red efest 26650 for the last couple of days, burst rating says I should be fine, continuous rating (15A) says I should have only 1A left of safety, it's been working well so far, and if I chain vape from saturated to dry wick and remove the battery immediately after the last pull the battery comes out cool to the touch or at the very very worst case almost unnoticeably warm, so I feel that that's relatively safe.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Andre

1am7h30n3 said:


> All battery ratings aside, I have been running a 0.3ohm build on the TOBH atty v2 on the hades with the red efest 26650 for the last couple of days, burst rating says I should be fine, continuous rating (15A) says I should have only 1A left of safety, it's been working well so far, and if I chain vape from saturated to dry wick and remove the battery immediately after the last pull the battery comes out cool to the touch or at the very very worst case almost unnoticeably warm, so I feel that that's relatively safe.


Until you get a short. Or the firing button is not released for whatever reason. Be ultra careful, but seems to me you know what you are doing.


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## M4dm0nk3y

1am7h30n3 said:


> Yeah those new purple efest that have arrived at vapeking look pretty awesome, I will be picking a few of those up.
> 
> Running a 0.4ohm build on the hades clone with the red efest 26650 with a battery voltage of 4.06V measures 3.1V between the + and - posts (screw pins where you screw the coils to) on a TOBH atty v2 clone from vapeking while firing.
> 
> All battery ratings aside, I have been running a 0.3ohm build on the TOBH atty v2 on the hades with the red efest 26650 for the last couple of days, burst rating says I should be fine, continuous rating (15A) says I should have only 1A left of safety, it's been working well so far, and if I chain vape from saturated to dry wick and remove the battery immediately after the last pull the battery comes out cool to the touch or at the very very worst case almost unnoticeably warm, so I feel that that's relatively safe.


Lol, I'm using the exact same setup a I sit here and type this (same batteries, mod and atty). Alost same resistance as well, my build is at 0.4Ohm

Been using these batteries like this for a few months now, so far no issues  Happy vaping man

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Andre

M4dm0nk3y said:


> Lol, I'm using the exact same setup a I sit here and type this (same batteries, mod and atty). Alost same resistance as well, my build is at 0.4Ohm
> 
> Been using these batteries like this for a few months now, so far no issues  Happy vaping man


That 0.1 ohms higher resistance makes a huge difference. With a fresh battery you will be at 10.5A, which is a goodish margin.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## 1am7h30n3

@M4dm0nk3y have you by chance to measured the voltage to your coils while firing (0.4ohm, hades, red efest 26650, tobh atty clone)?

There is a heck of a lot of resistance somewhere in the chain, trying to narrow down whether it's mostly hades (original known to be pretty high resistance - high voltage drop) or whether it's also partly also the tobh atty clone or (I suspect) the bulk of it being in the batteries internal resistance.

Pushing a 0.4ohm build with a 4.06V battery and getting only 3.1V (measured while firing) to my actual coils means that the build I though was getting Power = (V*V)/R = (4.06*4.06)/0.4 = 41W, is actually only getting (3.1*3.1)/0.4 = 24W.

It would be interesting to do a comparison between the new purple efest 26650 and the red efest 26650 with the same build and see what the voltage delivered to the coils actually is, I suspect that the new purple efest being rated for higher current draw (continuous) would also have a lower internal resistance and thus delivery more voltage to your coils, how much more, that's the question!

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Rooigevaar

Removing the spring in the bottom and replacing with magnets and removing the little spring on top for the floating pin will help with the drop... a little...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 2


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## 1am7h30n3

Thanks for the tips @Rooigevaar I had already removed the spring in the top floating pin, will try swapping the bottom spring for magnets! (i did try previously but i kept screwing it up and then i gave up haha!)


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## Mike

Holy smokes!!!

http://www.kidneypuncher.com/vappower-imr-26650-4200-mah/

Reactions: Like 1


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## 1am7h30n3

That looks like one absolutely awesome battery, specs wise!

What do you guys think of the graphs provided on that link?

http://www.kidneypuncher.com/vappower-imr-26650-4200-mah/




Many of us are doing builds where we are aiming for 10A+, look at how much of a voltage drop we get even with a "fully charged" battery, starting from the 0mAh end of the graph. I think that the internal resistance of the battery (causing the voltage drop under current load) is reducing the power delivered to our actual coils way beyond what we are expecting/planning for. I doubt any of us (I'm not) are taking this into account. Whether we should account for this, and how to, is another story...


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## Andre

1am7h30n3 said:


> That looks like one absolutely awesome battery, specs wise!
> 
> What do you guys think of the graphs provided on that link?
> 
> http://www.kidneypuncher.com/vappower-imr-26650-4200-mah/
> 
> View attachment 9417
> 
> 
> Many of us are doing builds where we are aiming for 10A+, look at how much of a voltage drop we get even with a "fully charged" battery, starting from the 0mAh end of the graph. I think that the internal resistance of the battery (causing the voltage drop under current load) is reducing the power delivered to our actual coils way beyond what we are expecting/planning for. I doubt any of us (I'm not) are taking this into account. Whether we should account for this, and how to, is another story...


Looks great. I am impressed that they clearly put out the info needed for a layman like me. And it seems this battery has been created specifically with vapers in mind!

Reactions: Agree 2


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## M4dm0nk3y

1am7h30n3 said:


> @M4dm0nk3y have you by chance to measured the voltage to your coils while firing (0.4ohm, hades, red efest 26650, tobh atty clone)?
> 
> There is a heck of a lot of resistance somewhere in the chain, trying to narrow down whether it's mostly hades (original known to be pretty high resistance - high voltage drop) or whether it's also partly also the tobh atty clone or (I suspect) the bulk of it being in the batteries internal resistance.
> 
> Pushing a 0.4ohm build with a 4.06V battery and getting only 3.1V (measured while firing) to my actual coils means that the build I though was getting Power = (V*V)/R = (4.06*4.06)/0.4 = 41W, is actually only getting (3.1*3.1)/0.4 = 24W.
> 
> It would be interesting to do a comparison between the new purple efest 26650 and the red efest 26650 with the same build and see what the voltage delivered to the coils actually is, I suspect that the new purple efest being rated for higher current draw (continuous) would also have a lower internal resistance and thus delivery more voltage to your coils, how much more, that's the question!


 
Sorry for the late reply on this, updating my notification settings right away!

My current coil on my Tobh is sitting at 0.32Ohm

Right now the most topped up EFest 26650 Red I have is reading in at 4.13V installed in my Hades (not under load)

Under load on the mentioned coil in my Hades, voltage drops to 2.8V

So, yes - it's bad...I don't know why I never bothered to test this before

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## M4dm0nk3y

I also tested with my HCigar Nemesis, with a Sony VTC5 and the same atty and coil

4.16V: No load
3.36V: While firing (under load)

It would be interesting to see other people's results as well - I definitely need to do more research

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Andre

M4dm0nk3y said:


> I also tested with my HCigar Nemesis, with a Sony VTC5 and the same atty and coil
> 
> 4.16V: No load
> 3.36V: While firing (under load)
> 
> It would be interesting to see other people's results as well - I definitely need to do more research


The voltage drop for a Reo (has cold plated contacts) is around 0.2V.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## M4dm0nk3y

Came across the following article explaining voltage drop under load, it's an interesting read and explains it well: http://www.vape-break.com/2013/05/explained-under-load-voltage-drop/

It's very much dependant on resistance of the coil

Reactions: Agree 1 | Thanks 1 | Informative 1


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## M4dm0nk3y

Check this out, this is awesome! Online vaper's toolbox : http://www.steam-engine.org/


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## Mike

Here's my preferred one

http://coiltoy.ermeso.com/

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## 1am7h30n3

M4dm0nk3y said:


> Sorry for the late reply on this, updating my notification settings right away!
> 
> My current coil on my Tobh is sitting at 0.32Ohm
> 
> Right now the most topped up EFest 26650 Red I have is reading in at 4.13V installed in my Hades (not under load)
> 
> Under load on the mentioned coil in my Hades, voltage drops to 2.8V
> 
> So, yes - it's bad...I don't know why I never bothered to test this before


 
@M4dm0nk3y Thanks so much for the measurements! With a 0.32ohm build on a fresh battery (4.2V) you are aiming to see current of I = V/R = 4.2/0.32 = 13.125A.




From the above graph of the red efest 26650 batteries, graph from http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Efest IMR26650 3000mAh (Red) 2014 UK.html , and working from somewhere around the 0,5Ah portion of the graph (battery might have lost a bit of capacity, not fully fully charged, etc) you're looking at getting a max of 3.55V out of it. Accounting for the battery having been put through quite a few cycles and we're looking at even worse performance, then of course there are losses from the mech mod itself as well as the tobh atty, etc and we start to see where numbers like 2.8V under load come from!



M4dm0nk3y said:


> I also tested with my HCigar Nemesis, with a Sony VTC5 and the same atty and coil
> 
> 4.16V: No load
> 3.36V: While firing (under load)
> 
> It would be interesting to see other people's results as well - I definitely need to do more research


 
I would put money on the higher voltage to atty measured here being mostly due to the much higher quality VTC5 battery and not mostly due to the different mod used.



Andre said:


> The voltage drop for a Reo (has cold plated contacts) is around 0.2V.


 
@Andre , although it is repeated over and over by the vaping community, this "voltage drop" figure is actually only meaningful if quoted along with the specific battery used (as well as age/condition and resting voltage) and the ohm load being driven. I don't mean to offend anyone here, I just want to get the right info out there.

There is actually no such thing as a "voltage drop", all that is happening is that we can measure a drop in the voltage, which is caused by a current flowing through a resistance (mod/battery internal resistance/resistance through 510 connector etc), the only meaningful figures would be resistances of each part of the chain (battery, atty, coils, mod) but this is extremely hard to break down.

If it seems hard to accept that there is no meaning to "voltage drop" you can test it easily by taking your Reo, putting an atty with a low resistance (say 0.3 or 0.4ohm) on and measuring voltage while firing, then put an atty with a high resistance (say 1ohm or 2ohm) and measure voltage while firing again. You will see two totally different readings, hence no meaning to "voltage drop" without more information.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Thanks 1 | Informative 1


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## Chop007

Silver said:


> Hi @drew
> I read with much interest you saying that the Purple Efest 35A 2500mah is actually a re-wrapped LG ICR.
> I thought it was an IMR battery.
> If it is ICR, then that would be bad? Right?


Not All Efest are re wrapped. The trick to getting the genuine batteries, both Efest and Sony VTC's is to know the batteries original real world purpose and then have a connection within specific industry, to get the batteries. Very tricky, many muppets cannot get the originals.


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## Andre

Chop007 said:


> Not All Efest are re wrapped. The trick to getting the genuine batteries, both Efest and Sony VTC's is to know the batteries original real world purpose and then have a connection within specific industry, to get the batteries. Very tricky, many muppets cannot get the originals.


These type of general statements do no-one any favours, with the greatest of respect. We have submitted in more than one thread a public statement by Efest that their purple 2500 mAh batteries in fact have a Continuous Discharge Current of only 20A and not the misleading 35A as stated on the battery.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## drew

Chop007 said:


> Not All Efest are re wrapped. The trick to getting the genuine batteries, both Efest and Sony VTC's is to know the batteries original real world purpose and then have a connection within specific industry, to get the batteries. Very tricky, many muppets cannot get the originals.


 
I disagree, re-wrapping is what Efest does! They don't actually manufacture any cells, they purely source from various manufacturers, re-wrap and market.


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## Andre

drew said:


> I disagree, re-wrapping is what Efest does! They don't actually manufacture any cells, they purely source from various manufacturers, re-wrap and market.


Maybe it is a matter of definition here. Re-wrapping, as I understand it generally in battery terms, means putting a new wrapping over the original wrapping - actually more over-wrapping for me. Efest has done that no doubt - have seen some pictures. But they also buy in bare, unwrapped batteries or take off the wrapping of bought batteries and put their own wrapping on. Have checked one of my purple 3100 and it is bare metal beneath the Efest wrapping. Am sure they have learned their lesson with re-wrapping (over-wrapping) as defined above and will not do it any more. They have also stated that from June 2014, with new battery lines, they will show the Continuous Discharge Current in Amps. But their reputation is down the drain, for sure.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gazzacpt

Chop007 said:


> Not All Efest are re wrapped. The trick to getting the genuine batteries, both Efest and Sony VTC's is to know the batteries original real world purpose and then have a connection within specific industry, to get the batteries. Very tricky, many muppets cannot get the originals.


Sorry to do this but really? Did you go and research we even supplied links, slating the other retailers calling them muppets was a bit uncalled for. As far as I can tell no one in SA has been selling "fake" Efests. Everyone here has been trying to tell you that efest are rewrapping cells from other manufacturers , much in the way that AW does. AW does not manufacture he sources cells tests the batch to make sure it is capable of the current drain and then puts his wrapper on. Same thing efest have done. They are not fake.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Zegee

Gonna get me some popcorn this is gonna be a page Turner

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Funny 5


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## M4dm0nk3y

1am7h30n3 said:


> @M4dm0nk3y Thanks so much for the measurements! With a 0.32ohm build on a fresh battery (4.2V) you are aiming to see current of I = V/R = 4.2/0.32 = 13.125A.
> 
> View attachment 9547
> 
> 
> From the above graph of the red efest 26650 batteries, graph from http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Efest IMR26650 3000mAh (Red) 2014 UK.html , and working from somewhere around the 0,5Ah portion of the graph (battery might have lost a bit of capacity, not fully fully charged, etc) you're looking at getting a max of 3.55V out of it. Accounting for the battery having been put through quite a few cycles and we're looking at even worse performance, then of course there are losses from the mech mod itself as well as the tobh atty, etc and we start to see where numbers like 2.8V under load come from!
> 
> 
> 
> I would put money on the higher voltage to atty measured here being mostly due to the much higher quality VTC5 battery and not mostly due to the different mod used.
> 
> 
> 
> @Andre , although it is repeated over and over by the vaping community, this "voltage drop" figure is actually only meaningful if quoted along with the specific battery used (as well as age/condition and resting voltage) and the ohm load being driven. I don't mean to offend anyone here, I just want to get the right info out there.
> 
> There is actually no such thing as a "voltage drop", all that is happening is that we can measure a drop in the voltage, which is caused by a current flowing through a resistance (mod/battery internal resistance/resistance through 510 connector etc), the only meaningful figures would be resistances of each part of the chain (battery, atty, coils, mod) but this is extremely hard to break down.
> 
> If it seems hard to accept that there is no meaning to "voltage drop" you can test it easily by taking your Reo, putting an atty with a low resistance (say 0.3 or 0.4ohm) on and measuring voltage while firing, then put an atty with a high resistance (say 1ohm or 2ohm) and measure voltage while firing again. You will see two totally different readings, hence no meaning to "voltage drop" without more information.


 
Thanks for all the info! Seems it's almost time for some new batteries then - sub-ohming at such a low resistance for a couple of months really take their toll on batteries; oh well, they're cheap enough at least

Reactions: Like 1


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## M4dm0nk3y

M4dm0nk3y said:


> Came across the following article explaining voltage drop under load, it's an interesting read and explains it well: http://www.vape-break.com/2013/05/explained-under-load-voltage-drop/
> 
> It's very much dependant on resistance of the coil


 
If I interpret this article correctly, my calculations come out like so (please feel free to help me out if I'm mis-interpreting something here):

Total Resistance = Mod Resistance + Internal Battery Resistance + Coil Resistance an Atty
I = (Battery Voltage) / (Total Resistance)
I = 4.2 / (0.05 + 0.06 + 0.32)
I = 9,767 amps

Voltage (Coil) = I x R (Coil)
Voltage (Coil) = 9,767 x 0.32
Voltage (Coil) = 3,12 Volts

Voltage (Drop) = Voltage Resting - Voltage (Coil)
Voltage (Drop) = 4.2 - 3,12
Voltage (Drop) = 1,08 Volts


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## capetocuba

Chop007 said:


> Not All Efest are re wrapped. The trick to getting the genuine batteries, both Efest and Sony VTC's is to know the batteries original real world purpose and then have a connection within specific industry, to get the batteries. Very tricky, many muppets cannot get the originals.


I take exception to you calling people muppets. That implies that I am a muppet too as I may have purchased from them.


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## 1am7h30n3

M4dm0nk3y said:


> If I interpret this article correctly, my calculations come out like so (please feel free to help me out if I'm mis-interpreting something here):
> 
> Total Resistance = Mod Resistance + Internal Battery Resistance + Coil Resistance an Atty
> I = (Battery Voltage) / (Total Resistance)
> I = 4.2 / (*0.05* + *0.06* + 0.32)
> I = 9,767 amps
> 
> Voltage (Coil) = I x R (Coil)
> Voltage (Coil) = 9,767 x 0.32
> Voltage (Coil) = 3,12 Volts
> 
> Voltage (Drop) = Voltage Resting - Voltage (Coil)
> Voltage (Drop) = 4.2 - 3,12
> Voltage (Drop) = 1,08 Volts


 
@M4dm0nk3y that looks pretty cool, where did you get the values of *0.05*, *0.06* from, are those assumed values copied from the article?

I did something sort of similar. I lumped mod and battery internal resistance together.




Where EMF and Vload are known, EMF being battery resting voltage and Vload being voltage measured at atty while firing.
Rinternal (in the picture) will represent mod and battery internal resistance.
Rload will represent the atty/coil resistance.

We can use the voltage divider formula:
Vload = EMF x Rload / (Rload + Rinternal)

Solving for Rinternal:
Rinternal = (Rload x (EMF - Vload))/Vload
Rinternal = (0.4 x (4.06 - 3.1))/3.1 = 0.124ohm

Ok, so here is my proposal. We know that the batteries have continuous discharge rating of 15A, red efest 26650, so if we propose a build right on the safety limit of (continuous - remember pulse is still higher so we have "safety" maybe lol built in) 15A we can do a 0.28ohm build, that's 0.28ohm total resistance. So we need to build a 0.28 - 0.124 = 0.156ohm coil. This should net us an atty/coil
power = I x I x R = 15 x 15 x 0.156 = 35.1W.

Ok so that might be a bit close to the limit, but this math should work for any build, and will get us closer to a "power to the coil" build instead of the build's we've been doing where we plan for a certain wattage to the coils and wind up with only a fraction of it...

Thoughts?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Chop007

capetocuba said:


> I take exception to you calling people muppets. That implies that I am a muppet too as I may have purchased from them.


Only a joke dude. I would never use dodgy batteries in a mech mod. Muppets are cute anyways. Apologies for calling people Muppets.......really...... I never said those who purchased dodgy batteries are muppets, I said those who cannot expend the effort to get the genuine article for their loyal clients, are muppets. So, no, you are not a muppet.






P.S. I LOVE MUPPETS........


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## Chop007

Gazzacpt said:


> Sorry to do this but really? Did you go and research we even supplied links, slating the other retailers calling them muppets was a bit uncalled for. As far as I can tell no one in SA has been selling "fake" Efests. Everyone here has been trying to tell you that efest are rewrapping cells from other manufacturers , much in the way that AW does. AW does not manufacture he sources cells tests the batch to make sure it is capable of the current drain and then puts his wrapper on. Same thing efest have done. They are not fake.


I never slated any retailers. I simply said that it is possible to get the real deal in and that there are fakes/re wrapped batteries on the market. We go to great lengths to get the real batteries in and the inference that all Efest batteries are simply re wrapped LG's is simply not true.

Anyways, sorry about the Muppet comment, really, I never thought anyone would take offense to 'Muppets' seriously......I shall refrain from calling anyone, even those who are not named but rather implied....Muppets...in the future. Hope you can forgive me for calling unknown possible sellers of real, maybe not fake, rewrapped, battery suppliers......, muppets. I love muppets anyways. 

P.S. On second thoughts, my intentions where not derogatory. Simply a silly comment, I will not get drawn into a pointless flame war about Muppets, I have better things to do with my time and many clients to assist. If anyone takes exception to my Muppet comment, you have my apology. Furthermore I have nothing to say on the subject. So put the popcorn away.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Zegee



Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 4


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## capetocuba



Reactions: Funny 2


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## Gazzacpt

Chop007 said:


> I never slated any retailers. I simply said that it is possible to get the real deal in and that there are fakes/re wrapped batteries on the market. We go to great lengths to get the real batteries in and the inference that all Efest batteries are simply re wrapped LG's is simply not true.
> 
> Anyways, sorry about the Muppet comment, really, I never thought anyone would take offense to 'Muppets' seriously......I shall refrain from calling anyone, even those who are not named but rather implied....Muppets...in the future. Hope you can forgive me for calling unknown possible sellers of real, maybe not fake, rewrapped, battery suppliers......, muppets. I love muppets anyways.
> 
> P.S. On second thoughts, my intentions where not derogatory. Simply a silly comment, I will not get drawn into a pointless flame war about Muppets, I have better things to do with my time and many clients to assist. If anyone takes exception to my Muppet comment, you have my apology. Furthermore I have nothing to say on the subject. So put the popcorn away.


Reading your post I realised that you never read the previous posts properly and didn't look at any links provided by this community or those on ECF.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## Andre

Gazzacpt said:


> Reading your post I realised that you never read the previous posts properly and didn't look at any links provided by this community or those on ECF.


Agree, and not responding to those posts. Getting the community riled up by not addressing substance does not do VapeMob any favours.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## Zegee

ok for the purpose of all parties involved sanity will a mod please lock this thread we are at a point where we are chasing our tails.
can't we all just get along

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Andre

Zegee said:


> ok for the purpose of all parties involved sanity will a mod please lock this thread we are at a point where we are chasing our tails.
> can't we all just get along


Noooo, @Zegee and you were the one getting out the popcorn. I love @Chop007 and get along with him perfectly, I just do not agree with his arguments. And I think all of us has been very civilized in our discourse. And this thread addresses some vital safety issues, which should be open for any queries.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zegee

Andre said:


> Noooo, @Zegee and you were the one getting out the popcorn. I love @Chop007 and get along with him perfectly, I just do not agree with his arguments. And I think all of us has been very civilized in our discourse. And this thread addresses some vital safety issues, which should be open for any queries.


I hear you andre it just didn't seem to be going anywhere , I have no issue with anyone and it's more a case of before things get nasty cut it off.but be that as it may if we can all agree to remain civilised I'm sure we will be ok.

Lol I was instructed to put popcorn away so I decided to get biltong , In it for the long haul.

On a more serious note this may only be truly resolved with independent research conduct by us for us.

Maybe we can look at starting this project as it may prove fruitful for our community . I for one have been mislead by other reviews claiming the greatness and awesomeness of some products. 

Just a thought , I may be loosing it as I haven't eaten yet so if I am I apologise

Reactions: Like 1


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## 1am7h30n3

Zegee said:


> ok for the purpose of all parties involved sanity will a mod please lock this thread we are at a point where we are chasing our tails.
> can't we all just get along


 
Please don't lock this thread, I feel like me and @M4dm0nk3y are making some interesting progress...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Zegee

Andre said:


> Noooo, @Zegee and you were the one getting out the popcorn. I love @Chop007 and get along with him perfectly, I just do not agree with his arguments. And I think all of us has been very civilized in our discourse. And this thread addresses some vital safety issues, which should be open for any queries.


I hear you andre it just didn't seem to be going anywhere , I have no issue with anyone and it's more a case of before things get nasty cut it off.but be that as it may if we can all agree to remain civilised I'm sure we will be ok.

Lol I was instructed to put popcorn away so I decided to get biltong , In it for the long haul.

On a more serious note this may only be truly resolved with independent research conduct by us for us.

Maybe we can look at starting this project as it may prove fruitful for our community . I for one have been mislead by other reviews claiming the greatness and awesomeness of some products. 

Just a thought , I may be loosing it as I haven't eaten yet so if I am I apologise 


1am7h30n3 said:


> Please don't lock this thread, I feel like me and @M4dm0nk3y are making some interesting progress...


Ok sorry It was a bit premature 

Thank goodness I am not a moderator 

Have at it guys


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## Andre

Zegee said:


> I hear you andre it just didn't seem to be going anywhere , I have no issue with anyone and it's more a case of before things get nasty cut it off.but be that as it may if we can all agree to remain civilised I'm sure we will be ok.
> 
> Lol I was instructed to put popcorn away so I decided to get biltong , In it for the long haul.
> 
> On a more serious note this may only be truly resolved with independent research conduct by us for us.
> 
> Maybe we can look at starting this project as it may prove fruitful for our community . I for one have been mislead by other reviews claiming the greatness and awesomeness of some products.
> 
> Just a thought , I may be loosing it as I haven't eaten yet so if I am I apologise


 
No independent research required for resolution of this matter at all. The 2 matters of substance, which are unanswered imo are simply:

The assertion that not all Efests are re-wrapped: This might be a simple matter of definition. Fact is Efest does re-wrap batteries in the sense of wrapping their own labels over those of the original manufacturer - this does not seem to be in dispute. However, Efest also re-wraps in the sense of only buying batteries from other manufacturers and putting their own wrapping on such batteries. They buy the batteries bare (no wrapping) or the buy it with the wrapping of the original manufacturer and then either remove same or wrap over it. Efest is not a manufacturer of batteries. Can we all agree with the content of this paragraph?
The assumption that we have said Efest batteries are fake: Our assertion simply was that Efest has misleading statements on their batteries, e.g. the 35A on their purple 18650 2500mAh battery does not refer to Continuous Discharge Current (which is the important indicator for vapers). The CDC of this battery is actually 20A, which Efest has now publicly admitted. This, for example, is important for all vapers to know, but even more important for vendors to know, acknowledge and publish. Anyone disagree with this paragraph?

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Gazzacpt

Andre said:


> No independent research required for resolution of this matter at all. The 2 matters of substance, which are unanswered imo are simply:
> 
> The assertion that not all Efests are re-wrapped: This might be a simple matter of definition. Fact is Efest does re-wrap batteries in the sense of wrapping their own labels over those of the original manufacturer - this does not seem to be in dispute. However, Efest also re-wraps in the sense of only buying batteries from other manufacturers and putting their own wrapping on such batteries. They buy the batteries bare (no wrapping) or the buy it with the wrapping of the original manufacturer and then either remove same or wrap over it. Efest is not a manufacturer of batteries. Can we all agree with the content of this paragraph?
> The assumption that we have said Efest batteries are fake: Our assertion simply was that Efest has misleading statements on their batteries, e.g. the 35A on their purple 18650 2500mAh battery does not refer to Continuous Discharge Current (which is the important indicator for vapers). The CDC of this battery is actually 20A, which Efest has now publicly admitted. This, for example, is important for all vapers to know, but even more important for vendors to know, acknowledge and publish. Anyone disagree with this paragrap?


That pretty much sums it up Oom @Andre. Very eloquent.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## M4dm0nk3y

1am7h30n3 said:


> @M4dm0nk3y that looks pretty cool, where did you get the values of *0.05*, *0.06* from, are those assumed values copied from the article?
> 
> I did something sort of similar. I lumped mod and battery internal resistance together.
> 
> View attachment 9623
> 
> 
> Where EMF and Vload are known, EMF being battery resting voltage and Vload being voltage measured at atty while firing.
> Rinternal (in the picture) will represent mod and battery internal resistance.
> Rload will represent the atty/coil resistance.
> 
> We can use the voltage divider formula:
> Vload = EMF x Rload / (Rload + Rinternal)
> 
> Solving for Rinternal:
> Rinternal = (Rload x (EMF - Vload))/Vload
> Rinternal = (0.4 x (4.06 - 3.1))/3.1 = 0.124ohm
> 
> Ok, so here is my proposal. We know that the batteries have continuous discharge rating of 15A, red efest 26650, so if we propose a build right on the safety limit of (continuous - remember pulse is still higher so we have "safety" maybe lol built in) 15A we can do a 0.28ohm build, that's 0.28ohm total resistance. So we need to build a 0.28 - 0.124 = 0.156ohm coil. This should net us an atty/coil
> power = I x I x R = 15 x 15 x 0.156 = 35.1W.
> 
> Ok so that might be a bit close to the limit, but this math should work for any build, and will get us closer to a "power to the coil" build instead of the build's we've been doing where we plan for a certain wattage to the coils and wind up with only a fraction of it...
> 
> Thoughts?


 
Very interesting! I'm sitting here scratching my head trying to make sense of it all. Yes I assumed those two values, just theoretical values for now (I am definitely going to go get myself a multimeter)

Ok, so this is how I broke it down:

Known values:
EMF = Battery resting voltage
Rload = The atty/coil resistance

Calculated Values:
Vload = Voltage measured at atty while firing
Rinternal = Mod and battery internal resistance
Iload = Current in circuit under load
Pcoil = Power at coil while firing

Formulas for calculated values:
Vload = (EMF x Rload) / (Rload + Rinternal)
Rinternal = (Rload x (EMF - Vload))/Vload

Sample Situation
================
Assume:
EMF = 4.2V (freshly charged)
Rload = 0.156 ohm

Solving for Vload:
Vload = (EMF x Rload) / (Rload + Rinternal)
Vload = (4.2 x 0.156) / (0.156 + 0.1)
Vload = 0.6552 / 0.256
Vload = 2.5594 V

Solving for Rinternal:
Rinternal = (Rload x (EMF - Vload)) / Vload
Rinternal = (0.156 x (4.2 - 2.5594)) / 2.5594
Rinternal = 0.2559336 / 2.5594
Rinternal = 0.099 Ohm

Proposal (Here there is some discrepancy, and I'm not sure why)
========
Iload = EMF / (Rinternal + Rload) (I = V / R)
Iload = 4.2 / (0.099 + 0.156)
Iload = 16,47 Amps (!)

Pcoil = Iload x Vload (W = Amps x Voltage) -> Here I assumed that Amps is Amperage under load, and Voltage is voltage under load
Pcoil = 16,47 x 2.5594
Pcoil = 42,154 W


How did you get to this calculation?: _power = I x I x R = 15 x 15 x 0.156 = 35.1W._


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## 1am7h30n3

M4dm0nk3y said:


> Very interesting! I'm sitting here scratching my head trying to make sense of it all. Yes I assumed those two values, just theoretical values for now (I am definitely going to go get myself a multimeter)
> 
> Ok, so this is how I broke it down:
> 
> Known values:
> EMF = Battery resting voltage
> Rload = The atty/coil resistance
> 
> Calculated Values:
> Vload = Voltage measured at atty while firing
> Rinternal = Mod and battery internal resistance
> Iload = Current in circuit under load
> Pcoil = Power at coil while firing
> 
> Formulas for calculated values:
> Vload = (EMF x Rload) / (Rload + Rinternal)
> Rinternal = (Rload x (EMF - Vload))/Vload
> 
> Sample Situation
> ================
> Assume:
> EMF = 4.2V (freshly charged)
> Rload = 0.156 ohm
> 
> Solving for Vload:
> Vload = (EMF x Rload) / (Rload + Rinternal)
> Vload = (4.2 x 0.156) / (0.156 + 0.1)
> Vload = 0.6552 / 0.256
> Vload = 2.5594 V
> 
> Solving for Rinternal:
> Rinternal = (Rload x (EMF - Vload)) / Vload
> Rinternal = (0.156 x (4.2 - 2.5594)) / 2.5594
> Rinternal = 0.2559336 / 2.5594
> Rinternal = 0.099 Ohm
> 
> Proposal (Here there is some discrepancy, and I'm not sure why)
> ========
> Iload = EMF / (Rinternal + Rload) (I = V / R)
> Iload = 4.2 / (0.099 + 0.156)
> Iload = 16,47 Amps (!)
> 
> Pcoil = Iload x Vload (W = Amps x Voltage) -> Here I assumed that Amps is Amperage under load, and Voltage is voltage under load
> Pcoil = 16,47 x 2.5594
> Pcoil = 42,154 W
> 
> 
> How did you get to this calculation?: _power = I x I x R = 15 x 15 x 0.156 = 35.1W._


 
I think we are on the same track there, the only difference is when you assumed a lower internal resistance than I did, you wound up with more current and also more power to your coil. I calculated my Rload to be the minimum Rload possible without exceeding 15A, you chose the same Rload as I did, but with a lower assumed internal resistance.

And then the power calculation will work out as well (with a different power result for your case, once you have calculated your min Rload to not exceed 15A). Of course, I'm not suggesting that we actually build these coils, 15A is right on the safe limit, this is all theoretical for me at this point...

Reactions: Agree 1


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