# Juice Ingestion



## Hooked (30/9/17)

Why may juice not be ingested? I'm not planning on drinking a bottle lol, just curious!

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## RichJB (30/9/17)

I don't see why it shouldn't be ingested. PG, VG and flavours are all used in products which we ingest and have been declared safe. I don't think nicotine is going to do anything to the stomach that it doesn't do in the lungs, especially not at the low concentrations in juice. Either way, it ends up in your bloodstream. Juice might not taste very good but I don't see it being harmful in small quantities. There have been multiple cases of kids ingesting juice and, other than a brief nic buzz, there doesn't seem to be any harm. Ingesting undiluted nic would be different.

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## Jengz (30/9/17)

I personally seen a few pro mixologist taste vape juice by dripping some on their finger and then licking the juice! Was extremely strange when I first seen that, I then seen a man rub the juice on his teeth and stating ‘sjoeh that’s a good profile juice’.

I was in shock, like a cocaine addict! But apparently the elite guys can gauge whether a juice is good or not by doing that, whether it is true or not, flip knows. All I know is that if I taste juice in that manner, boom! Instant Vapers tongue, don’t know why but I’m sure it’s not because it’s harmful to digest

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## Hooked (30/9/17)

Jengz said:


> I personally seen a few pro mixologist taste vape juice by dripping some on their finger and then licking the juice! Was extremely strange when I first seen that, I then seen a man rub the juice on his teeth and stating ‘sjoeh that’s a good profile juice’.
> 
> I was in shock, like a cocaine addict! But apparently the elite guys can gauge whether a juice is good or not by doing that, whether it is true or not, flip knows. All I know is that if I taste juice in that manner, boom! Instant Vapers tongue, don’t know why but I’m sure it’s not because it’s harmful to digest



I often taste my vape juice by putting just a tiny drop on my finger. I'll try it on my teeth next time!


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## Strontium (30/9/17)

Can't see any harm, I often taste my mixes to gauge.


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## Ozeran (30/9/17)

So the side effects are mainly because of the nicotine. Nicotine gum has been known to cause an upset stomach, constipation and bloating when entering the stomach from there onwards the symptoms can increase are dissipate depending on how your body reacts. So in my opinion, the warning is out there to prevent some guy from gulping down a 250ml of juice because he likes the taste. Then some company gets a lawsuit because this guy has waterfall flowing out his arse and belching banana rama for days.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Vino1718 (1/10/17)

I always taste my juice. It gives me a indication of whether my juice is good or crap before vaping it.


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## Hooked (1/10/17)

RichJB said:


> I don't see why it shouldn't be ingested. PG, VG and flavours are all used in products which we ingest and have been declared safe. I don't think nicotine is going to do anything to the stomach that it doesn't do in the lungs, especially not at the low concentrations in juice. Either way, it ends up in your bloodstream. Juice might not taste very good but I don't see it being harmful in small quantities. There have been multiple cases of kids ingesting juice and, other than a brief nic buzz, there doesn't seem to be any harm. Ingesting undiluted nic would be different.



I quote from 
https://www.vapemountain.com/starting-out-3.html


"*Safety Concerns* – While the amount of nicotine that is consumed during vaping is not close to being a dangerous dose, if E-juice is drunk it can pose a serious health risk. A child, having smelled something that smells like sweets or fruit, would be naturally intrigued to taste this fluid and even a small amount consumed could lead to serious illness or death. Fortunately, most e-liquids are now supplied with child-proof caps, helping to prevent this sort of tragic accident, but it must be stressed that it is incredibly important to keep e-liquid as far away from children as possible." 

However, it's unclear whether it's the nicotine that's dangerous, or the juice itself i.e. would zero nic be as dangerous?


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## Silver (1/10/17)

Hooked said:


> I quote from
> https://www.vapemountain.com/starting-out-3.html
> 
> 
> ...



I stand to be corrected @Hooked - but I think its mainly the nicotine.

The lethal dosage of nicotine depends on the size of the person ingesting it.
In the volumes we vape, we get such a tiny amount. 

But if a 100ml bottle of say 18mg is gulped down by a toddler, it could be very bad. Even that though I think would not be lethal (stand to be corrected) - but if its undiluted nic as @RichJB said, I think that would be very dangerous indeed.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## acorn (1/10/17)

How much nicotine kills a human? Interesting read with some variables: 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3880486/

Sent from my E5633 using Tapatalk


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## RichJB (1/10/17)

This is the same line of thinking that we need to have DIY flavours sold to us in bottles with childproof caps. You will note that Moirs food flavourings sold in supermarkets don't have childproof caps.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/09/health/e-cigarettes-poison-kids/index.html

This article is refreshingly free of any meaningful statistics. They spread alarm about the rising number of calls and offer this:



> "In this study," Smith said, "children exposed to e-cigarettes and liquid nicotine more commonly experienced severe clinical effects, such as seizure, coma and respiratory arrest, than children exposed to cigarettes."



What do they mean "exposed to" cigarettes? That they touched a cigarette, ate one, ate several? Why even compare to cigarettes? Why not compare to the two classifications of products - household cleaning agents and cosmetics - which form the vast majority of calls to poison centres? Why isn't bleach, fabric softener and face/hand cream sold in bottles with childproof caps? What percentage of children who ingest e-liquid suffer "seizure, coma and respiratory arrest"? They don't say. All they will say is that one infant died. I'm sure that if a child went into a coma or respiratory arrest from drinking e-juice, it would make the news somewhere. Yet there are no reports. Why is that? If 15% of kids who ingested e-juice suffered seizures, I'm sure that stat would be quoted. No stats are quoted. Why is that? They have exhaustive stats on the numbers of calls to poison centres but seem loath to give stats on serious illness or injury resulting from these calls. Could that be because the vast majority of these calls don't have serious consequences?

I was told an interesting anecdote by a manager of an armed response company. They received a call from a hysterical maid who said "the baby is in the pond". Suspecting that the infant had fallen into the pool or fishpond, they dispatched a vehicle immediately, leaping over the fence and sprinting to the pool to find it baby-less. When they went inside and questioned the maid, she took them to the master bedroom and showed them the open bottle of face cream from which the baby had eaten. That was what "the baby is in the pond" meant. Pond as in Pond's Cold Cream. The parents rushed home, took the child in to hospital, where it was kept for observation overnight but declared fit as a fiddle and released in the morning. Statistically, that counts as an emergency call to a poison centre. It counts as an emergency medical response. It counts as the child being hospitalised. But that doesn't mean the infant was on the verge of death, or even ill. I suspect the vast majority of e-juice incidents are the same.

The one infant died in 2014 from drinking nic, not juice. No children have died from e-juice or nic since then. In the interim, how many children have drowned in the bathtub, suffocated themselves with plastic bags or choked on foodstuff like hard sweets? How many children have been electrocuted in the home, or had fatal falls or accidents on tricycles, or pulled pans of boiling water or hot oil/fat onto themselves from the stove-top? How many have drunk paraffin or meths? How many have eaten poisonous plants or prescription medicines, been bitten by venomous spiders or snakes, been savaged by pets, set fire to the home by playing with matches, run into windows and cut themselves with broken glass or knives?

This article lists the ten most common causes of child poisoning. The majority of these products are not sold in child-proof containers. The article notes that between 1997 and 2010, 14 children choked to death on small batteries. Why is there not an uproar about the dangers of using small coin-shaped batteries? It has been responsible for at least 14 times as many infant deaths as the liquid nic used in juice.

Of course, there is no reason for an infant or child to drink e-juice and you don't want them doing it so should take appropriate precautions to protect them. But nic/juice is just one of the many, many, many, many household items which can be hazardous for kids. It doesn't merit any more or any fewer measures than anything else.

In closing, a lot of the concern around nic is based on previous poisoning cases which involved pure (1000mg per ml) nicotine. One cannot expect journalists or even medical interviewees to understand that we are not working with pure nic but with nic which has already been diluted at least 9:1 and often as much as 27:1. By the time it ends up in typical 3mg juice, it has been diluted 330:1. I certainly wouldn't ever work with pure nic. That is extremely toxic and requires appropriate PPE. There's a reason why it gets so heavily diluted before being sold to the public.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Silver (1/10/17)

Very well written @RichJB
Thanks

I havent had the time to carefully read the article @acorn posted above
But i scanned the concluding remarks and it said something about 0.5g of nic being dangerous or lethal.

So if one ingests a 30ml bottle of 18mg juice , then it seems to be enough nic to do harm.
Unless my maths is off
18mg/ml for a 30ml bottle is 540mg of nic, or 0.54g
Which is above the threshold they quoted in the article.
Am i misinterpreting this somehow?

PS - i have several 18mg juices lurking around my vape cave


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## RichJB (1/10/17)

Yeah, I suppose that could be dangerous and potentially fatal even. I think it would also depend on the person's physiology and also the formulation of the nic. I'd rather drink nic diluted in e-juice than the same amount of pure nic injected straight into a vein.

In one of his talks, Maciej Goniewicz talked about Theoretical Risk versus Documented Risk. His conclusion was that nic in e-juice is all about Theoretical rather than Documented risk. As per the CNN article, they will emphasise how many people _can_ be killed by nic but never talk about how many people _have_ been killed by nic. If from all the millions of vapers worldwide, the worst they can cite is one baby in NY dying from ingestion of liquid nic, then it is a risk so small as to be statistically insignificant imo. We see this in the diacetyl discussions as well. It's all about how vaping _can_ give you popcorn lung, never about how many vapers _have_ been diagnosed with popcorn lung.

That is not to say that hazards should be dismissed or taken lightly. If I can get the same taste from DAAP-free flavours, I will happily use them. But I'm not going to go overboard about it. Nic and juice in child-proof bottles, I agree with. But DIY food flavourings in child-proof bottles?!? After the FDA have passed these flavours as Generally Regarded As Safe to ingest and they are used in thousands of products that we eat and drink? That is hysteria. Especially when household bleach and other far more toxic chemicals are sold without child-proofing.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Feliks Karp (1/10/17)

Even the VG and the PG are used in a myriad of everyday food stuffs and interaction directly with humans, IIRC pet food has PG in it. It's literally just the nicotine they don't wanting you getting sick off. And 0 nic juices will have the same warning for two obvious reasons; screw ups happen and maybe that bottle has nicotine in it, and also if you start slurping up 0 nic juice you will probably end up trying to slurp up nicotine laced juice too.

Reactions: Like 1


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## KB_314 (1/10/17)

Don't drink eliquid that contains nicotine. 
A small taste of a drop or two to test a flavour likely won't hurt anyone (although it seems to numb my tongue a little), but if you drink a 30 or 60ml bottle with nic, you are not going to feel well at all. And if a toddler drinks, especially high nic eliquids, it could be worse than just an upset stomach as far as I understand.
But an eliquid without nic - I can't really see much harm in that. Probably not too pleasant though.

Reactions: Agree 1


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