# DIY - Negative Health symptoms



## DougP (17/9/21)

Cut a long story short..
Literally 6 weeks ago I started to develope the following symptoms:
1. Extremely dry nose with light bleeding from both nostrils
2. Lung tightness, shortness of breath and lungs that had a slight dull burn to them.
3. Fatigue and general feeling of not feeling well.
4. Bouts of diarrhea and leaky gut.

Having just gotten over a serious bout of covid 19 three months ago I wrote it off to post covid symptoms.
Sadly the symptoms did not abate but seemed to be getting worse.
A trip to the doctor showed that it wasn't covid related.

I then determined these symptoms were somehow being caused by my vaping. 

I currently mix my own 2 flavor profiles, a desert flavor and a fruit flavor. These 2 profiles I have been mixing and vaping on for over 3 years (mix them up in batches of 500mls each time from same concentrates and base liquids that I have) and have never had a problem with them. Yet now they seemed to be making me ill.

Immediately I purchased alternative premium juice and the problems went away after about 2 days confirming that it was my mixes making me sick.

So to determine what exactly was causing this in these juices I embarked on a process of elimination.

1. Replaced nic with new - symptoms persisted.
2. Replaced PG with new - symptoms persisted.
3. Replaced VG with new - symptoms persisted

I then looked at what concentrates where common in both profiles and the only one was the super sweet used at 1% in both profiles

4. Replaced the super sweet with new and the symptoms went away.
5. Mixed up a test batch with just the super sweet at 1% with PG and VG and volla symptoms returned.

So after 6 weeks of really ill health and complex testing and mixing it has all come down to a single concentrate being used at only 1% that was making me ill.
This concentrate I bought a single 100ml bottle of 16 months ago and have been using it with no problems until now (down to about 10 mls left of it). It's almost like it has suddenly gone "bad" (dunno what the right term here would be - bad, wrotten, carcinogenic)

Has anybody else experianced something similar. 

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## Puff the Magic Dragon (17/9/21)

Strange...

According to ATF, they have over 3000 recipes that use CAP Super Sweet at an average of 0.6%. Of these recipes 2 out of the top 20, by rating, use super sweet at 1%.

We also know that commercial juices often use high levels of sweetener.

What is really strange is that you vaped 9 litres of juice with 1% super sweet without any issues. In reality, you don't react to super sweet, but you react to the remaining batch which is 16 months old. I'm certain that many of us have used flavours that are older than 16 months without any issues. In my experience, my super sweet gets used up quickly as it is in many recipes. I also only buy it in 10ml bottles but sometimes buy two or three at a time. One can only assume that the 16 month old sweetener was contaminated with something.

I'm pleased to hear that you have returned to good health. Hopefully, someone on the forum will have an answer to your problem.

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## Timwis (18/9/21)

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> 16 month old sweetener was contaminated with something



The downside to having a healthy life insurance policy! Joking aside it seems the logical explanation!


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## Hooked (18/9/21)

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> One can only assume that the 16 month old sweetener was contaminated with something.



If it were contaminated, DougP would have had symptoms from the beginning. However, he said that he"bought a single 100ml bottle of 16 months ago and have been using it with no problems until now (down to about 10 mls left of it)." 

@DougP It could be that the last bit has gone off, or that you have developed a sensitivity to it. This happens with food as well. 
e.g. my brother used to love very spicy food (and still does), but suddenly, after many, many years, he found that if he ate something with a lot of cayenne pepper in it, his lips would swell up.

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## DougP (18/9/21)

It is definetly this bottle.

Its like it somehow expired and went off over a period of time. 
The analogy here would be like a single carton of milk going sour over a period of time when left out the fridge.

Begs the question does a concentrate expire over a period of time and can it go off.


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## DougP (18/9/21)

Hooked said:


> If it were contaminated, DougP would have had symptoms from the beginning. However, he said that he"bought a single 100ml bottle of 16 months ago and have been using it with no problems until now (down to about 10 mls left of it)."
> 
> @DougP It could be that the last bit has gone off, or that you have developed a sensitivity to it. This happens with food as well.
> e.g. my brother used to love very spicy food (and still does), but suddenly, after many, many years, he found that if he ate something with a lot of cayenne pepper in it, his lips would swell up.


Definetly not a sensitivity to it. New replacement bottle of super sweet works fine and symptoms have gone..its like this bottle and it's contents somehow has gone bad after a period of time.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (18/9/21)

Placebo


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## Puff the Magic Dragon (18/9/21)

Hooked said:


> If it were contaminated, DougP would have had symptoms from the beginning.



No.

Scenario one : the flavour was contaminated from the beginning thus making Doug ill from day one. This was clearly not the case.

Scenario two : the flavour was contaminated at around 18 months (or 10ml). This contamination event resulted in Doug becoming ill.

As I said, "One can only assume that *the 16 month old *sweetener was contaminated with something".

The other possibility is that the sweetener wasn't contaminated but went off /bad. The reason I put scenario two forward as a possible explanation is that many of us use fllavours that are older than 16 months with no ill effect.

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## DougP (18/9/21)

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> No.
> 
> Scenario one : the flavour was contaminated from the beginning thus making Doug ill from day one. This was clearly not the case.
> 
> ...


The logical explanation would be contamination. 
Dunno how but I shall chalk it up to that.
Just as a justification on my side.
I am an ex commercial juice manufactorer that has been doing this for 6 years.
I have a full understanding of juice mixing and follow strict protocols with regards to storing of products and mixing methodologies. 
In 6 years of doing this I have never experianced this before. 
Anyway this has been an interesting exercise and just thought it worth sharing.

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## Puff the Magic Dragon (18/9/21)

I fully agree @DougP . 

Unless something else comes to light it seems sensible to chalk it up to some type of unknown contaminant.

This has been an interesting exercise and definitely worth sharing. Thanks.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (18/9/21)

Doug ... WTF! 
I leave you for a few months and you try kill yourself with the big C and vrot Sweetener  ... 
Glad to hear you're alive and well in spite of the challenges 
Stay well Bud

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## DougP (18/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Doug ... WTF!
> I leave you for a few months and you try kill yourself with the big C and vrot Sweetener  ...
> Glad to hear you're alive and well in spite of the challenges
> Stay well Bud


 
No jokes the covid delta hit both wife and I really hard, it was a rough 14 days for the both of us.
Currently we are living with post covid symptoms that are still effecting us.

As for the sweetener concentrate. I have never experianced this before in 6 years of making juice. The process of finding the culprit took a lot of time, lot of product replacement costs and 6 weeks of shitty health but at least I managed to find the cause.


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## Intuthu Kagesi (18/9/21)

DougP said:


> No jokes the covid delta hit both wife and I really hard, it was a rough 14 days for the both of us.
> Currently we are living with post covid symptoms that are still effecting us.
> 
> As for the sweetener concentrate. I have never experianced this before in 6 years of making juice. The process of finding the culprit took a lot of time, lot of product replacement costs and 6 weeks of shitty health but at least I managed to find the cause.
> ...



As long as the two of you are on the up and up then it's all good Doug ... Stay safe and take good care of you. 
With respect to the Sweetener ... it only takes one lil' microbe, and before you know it, there's a flippen colony of some noxious lil' suckers breeding away like merry-O .... maybe too, it's an incentive for a continuous supply of smaller quantities of 'fresh' raw product as apposed bulk purchasing?

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## ivc_mixer (18/9/21)

Maybe buy a new 10ml Super Sweet and try again. I have also been at this for over 6yrs now and have not had any concentrate go bad on me (yet, touch wood) and some have been older than 3yrs, though they weren't super sweet. Maybe it's due to the sucralose used in super sweet which is not necessarily used in other flavours? According to a site on which I just read up on Sucralose, it has a 4 years shelf life, but that's in dry form. Maybe because it's mixed with PG the shelf life decreases significantly?

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## DougP (18/9/21)

ivc_mixer said:


> Maybe buy a new 10ml Super Sweet and try again. I have also been at this for over 6yrs now and have not had any concentrate go bad on me (yet, touch wood) and some have been older than 3yrs, though they weren't super sweet. Maybe it's due to the sucralose used in super sweet which is not necessarily used in other flavours? According to a site on which I just read up on Sucralose, it has a 4 years shelf life, but that's in dry form. Maybe because it's mixed with PG the shelf life decreases significantly?


I did buy a replacement super sweet and it solved the problem.
So it was that bottle of super sweet..


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## DougP (18/9/21)

ivc_mixer said:


> Maybe buy a new 10ml Super Sweet and try again. I have also been at this for over 6yrs now and have not had any concentrate go bad on me (yet, touch wood) and some have been older than 3yrs, though they weren't super sweet. Maybe it's due to the sucralose used in super sweet which is not necessarily used in other flavours? According to a site on which I just read up on Sucralose, it has a 4 years shelf life, but that's in dry form. Maybe because it's mixed with PG the shelf life decreases significantly?


As a commercial juice manufactorer I would always ensure that concentrates were purchased and used immediately to ensure freshness and strict quality control. 
Then covid arrived and slam dunked my business. 5 months of the industry closed followed by a huge dip in sales going forward meant I have a stock pile of concentrates that have carried over for this period of time which I have been using. 
Rule of thumb I would never do this and would always ensure that my concentrates would be used within 2 weeks of order.
So having concentrates that have been standing for this period of time is new unchartered terrority for me.

Lesson I have learnt from this is that you cannot take for granted that concentrates will sit there for months/years and be fine. Expect the unexpected.

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## ivc_mixer (18/9/21)

DougP said:


> As a commercial juice manufactorer I would always ensure that concentrates were purchased and used immediately to ensure freshness and strict quality control.
> Then covid arrived and slam dunked my business. 5 months of the industry closed followed by a huge dip in sales going forward meant I have a stock pile of concentrates that have carried over for this period of time which I have been using.
> Rule of thumb I would never do this and would always ensure that my concentrates would be used within 2 weeks of order.
> So having concentrates that have been standing for this period of time is new unchartered terrority for me.
> ...


I cannot agree more and apply the same principles. The concentrates I have (had rather) which are more than 3 years old was things like RF Baja Soda and FW Big Stick Popsicle which I bought with a recipe in mind but then said recipe disappeared out of mind after I got them. But then I tried them much, much later just to see if they might work somewhere. They didn't. 

That being said, I did revisit some older flavours a few times - only used for recipe development and if good, I order new ones to try again and confirm efficacy - like PUR Caramel Coffee with Sweet Milk which was about 2yrs old at the time I developed the recipe and it was still perfect.

Usually concentrates have a fairly long shelf life, if you store them correctly which I am sure you do, but I just think it might have been the sucralose which went off in that bottle of CAP SS.

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## DougP (18/9/21)

ivc_mixer said:


> I cannot agree more and apply the same principles. The concentrates I have (had rather) which are more than 3 years old was things like RF Baja Soda and FW Big Stick Popsicle which I bought with a recipe in mind but then said recipe disappeared out of mind after I got them. But then I tried them much, much later just to see if they might work somewhere. They didn't.
> 
> That being said, I did revisit some older flavours a few times - only used for recipe development and if good, I order new ones to try again and confirm efficacy - like PUR Caramel Coffee with Sweet Milk which was about 2yrs old at the time I developed the recipe and it was still perfect.
> 
> Usually concentrates have a fairly long shelf life, if you store them correctly which I am sure you do, but I just think it might have been the sucralose which went off in that bottle of CAP SS.


I was leaning towards it being the PG base mix in the concentrate but now that you mention it it could be the crystals. 
Anyway it shall remain a mystery. I have kept the bottle and if the curiousity gets the better of me I might send it in for a chemical analysis.

At one stage I was using EM crystals to mix my own sweetener but gave up on that due to inconsitancy of the crystals and flavor profile 




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## Intuthu Kagesi (18/9/21)

This may provide some insight? 
https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/a...can-turn-healthy-gut-bacteria-into-pathogens/


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## ivc_mixer (18/9/21)

DougP said:


> At one stage I was using EM crystals to mix my own sweetener but gave up on that due to inconsitancy of the crystals and flavor profile


Same here. 
That brought up some best forgotten memories, lol.

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## DougP (18/9/21)

ivc_mixer said:


> Same here.
> That brought up some best forgotten memories, lol.


 the joys of mixing in those days. 

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## DougP (18/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> This may provide some insight?
> https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/a...can-turn-healthy-gut-bacteria-into-pathogens/


Great article thanks for sharing that....
I have heard that vaping can cause leaky gut and this article might substantiate that 

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## LeislB (19/9/21)

Wow, what an interesting thread! I'm so glad you got to the bottom. Frustrating the time and money wasted but at least the solution was a painless one. Imagine you had to quit and hadn't found the answer?

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## THE REAPER (19/9/21)

I have (TFA) Ethyl Maltol Crystal's how do I mix it by scale I see A lot of people saying 1/4 teespoon on 10ml pg but I don't wanna mess it up so any help please. And microwave in burst till it dissolves. I don't have any other sweetener so crystals it is.


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## ivc_mixer (19/9/21)

THE REAPER said:


> I have (TFA) Ethyl Maltol Crystal's how do I mix it by scale I see A lot of people saying 1/4 teespoon on 10ml pg but I don't wanna mess it up so any help please. And microwave in burst till it dissolves. I don't have any other sweetener so crystals it is.


The typical mix is a 10% solution in PG, i.e. 10g crystals in 90g PG (measure using a scale for most accurate results). Then also microwaving it was one of the lessons learnt, do not do it in my humble opinion. Best is to place it in a small glass container - like the old 30ml bottles of late (which is what I used back then still) - then place it in cup with warm to hot water until the crystals dissolve, cap open. Depending on the water, this may need to be repeated until all the crystals have dissolved. If you do decide to do it in a microwave just a word of warning, PG heats up very quickly and burns like lava when it touches your skin.

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## DougP (19/9/21)

THE REAPER said:


> I have (TFA) Ethyl Maltol Crystal's how do I mix it by scale I see A lot of people saying 1/4 teespoon on 10ml pg but I don't wanna mess it up so any help please. And microwave in burst till it dissolves. I don't have any other sweetener so crystals it is.


That measurement is correct. A level teaspoon (5 mls - 40mls PG)
I strongly advise against using the microwave.
I used to mix in a glass bottle and then put a pot of water on stove with glass bottle inside (cap off) and slowly move the bottle around whilst raising temp of water in pot.
You need quite a bit of heat to get the crystals to disolve.

To have absolute constancy with the 5mls I used this baby medicine spoon.

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## THE REAPER (19/9/21)

ivc_mixer said:


> The typical mix is a 10% solution in PG, i.e. 10g crystals in 90g PG (measure using a scale for most accurate results). Then also microwaving it was one of the lessons learnt, do not do it in my humble opinion. Best is to place it in a small glass container - like the old 30ml bottles of late (which is what I used back then still) - then place it in cup with warm to hot water until the crystals dissolve, cap open. Depending on the water, this may need to be repeated until all the crystals have dissolved. If you do decide to do it in a microwave just a word of warning, PG heats up very quickly and burns like lava when it touches your skin.


Thank you so much will go with scale and no microwave NOTED. I need a bit of sweet in my life. And thanks @DougP
Will do it in glass beaker and in warm water and when cooled bottle it.

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## CashKat88 (21/9/21)

I was reading about your experience and what i got from this is that only the last 10 mls(in a 100ml bottle) or so of this super sweet mix has given you these symptoms.
So what popped into my head was that maybe that last 10 mls in the bottle has oxidized because the more you use up the SS the more oxygen is present in the bottle which can cause oxidation.
I was told that if you are going to be storing liquids for Long periods of time then it should be in a bottle that does not have a lot of empty space(i.e if you have a 60ml bottle with only 20 mls of liquid in it then rather move liquid to a 30ml bottle so there is more liquid in the bottle than oxygen)

Bare in mind i'm really not an expert nor do i fully understand the principles of oxidation but i do know that if you store your nicotine in a bottle that has more oxygen than nicotine then it starts to degrade much faster, it becomes more peppery and harsh and might even start to turn a little brown due to oxidation. Same thing happens with whiskey.

I'm not really sure if the same thing is happening here in this case with the SuperSweet.
All i know is that the word oxidation is a synonym for rust and that's not good, so once my bottle of nic is about 1/3 of the way down maybe a little lower closer to half way, i then transfer it to a smaller bottle so less oxygen is present and i can honestly say my nic lasts longer and does not go peppery or harsh over time.

So maybe once the super sweet level goes down then transfer it into a smaller bottle so less oxygen is present.

This is just a theory, i'm not even sure if any of the ingredients used in SuperSweet can oxidize but it might explain why only the last bit of SS in the bottle had such a bad effect on you.

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## Viper_SA (21/9/21)

Maybe this will help, maybe not, but let me just make a point here about plastics. Almost all plastics used for these types of applications are permeable. Meaning oxygen can get in from the outside through the plastic. I know this because I work in the industry. Which is exactly why big soft drink manufacturers have sales on plastic bottles of their drinks. The average shelf life if a bottle of Coke in plastic is 3 months. After that the gas escaping through the plastic has reached such a point where the drink becomes flat. Exactly the reason why those small town cafes, with low turnover, still sell it in glas bottles. So, if gas can go out, oxygen can come in. Which is why I always try and buy in glass when I make bulk purchases, like large bottles of tomato sauce for instance. My advice would be to store in a glass container instead of plastic (if you don't already do).

P. S. If my boss reads this message, no-one here knows my real name

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## ivc_mixer (21/9/21)

Viper_SA said:


> P. S. If my boss reads this message, no-one here knows my real name

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## DougP (21/9/21)

Viper_SA said:


> Maybe this will help, maybe not, but let me just make a point here about plastics. Almost all plastics used for these types of applications are permeable. Meaning oxygen can get in from the outside through the plastic. I know this because I work in the industry. Which is exactly why big soft drink manufacturers have sales on plastic bottles of their drinks. The average shelf life if a bottle of Coke in plastic is 3 months. After that the gas escaping through the plastic has reached such a point where the drink becomes flat. Exactly the reason why those small town cafes, with low turnover, still sell it in glas bottles. So, if gas can go out, oxygen can come in. Which is why I always try and buy in glass when I make bulk purchases, like large bottles of tomato sauce for instance. My advice would be to store in a glass container instead of plastic (if you don't already do).
> 
> P. S. If my boss reads this message, no-one here knows my real name


Very Interesting..thanks for pointing this out...


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## Befo5 (23/9/21)

THE REAPER said:


> I have (TFA) Ethyl Maltol Crystal's how do I mix it by scale I see A lot of people saying 1/4 teespoon on 10ml pg but I don't wanna mess it up so any help please. And microwave in burst till it dissolves. I don't have any other sweetener so crystals it is.

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## ivc_mixer (23/9/21)

ivc_mixer said:


> The typical mix is a 10% solution in PG, i.e. 10g crystals in 90g PG (measure using a scale for most accurate results). Then also microwaving it was one of the lessons learnt, do not do it in my humble opinion. Best is to place it in a small glass container - like the old 30ml bottles of late (which is what I used back then still) - then place it in cup with warm to hot water until the crystals dissolve, cap open. Depending on the water, this may need to be repeated until all the crystals have dissolved. If you do decide to do it in a microwave just a word of warning, PG heats up very quickly and burns like lava when it touches your skin.

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## Viper_SA (23/9/21)

Suddenly I'm seeing only quotes and no replies.... Weird

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## ivc_mixer (23/9/21)

Viper_SA said:


> Suddenly I'm seeing only quotes and no replies.... Weird


Well I assumed he wanted to bring that comment up again as he seemed to have missed the response. So I was too lazy to type a response again and just quoted my previous one.

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