# Flavour concentrate substitutions



## aktorsyl (19/4/17)

I've been looking through the forum (in fact, through the whole Internet almost) and unless I missed it somewhere, I can't find any place where flavour substitutes are consolidated in one place. Bearing in mind that flavour substitutes are - just like flavours themselves - subjective in nature, there are at least standard substitutions that make sense.

So I have an idea.

Was wondering if you fellow mixers would be interested in having a consolidated thread here where we can ask things like "TFA sub for FA Cookie" and have some input on what the best substitution would be and how the percentages would change accordingly due to strength. (In this particular example I'd imagine one would be bang outa luck as I haven't personally found any good cookie from TFA, but I digress).

In most instances, the typical question here would probably be: "Guys, the recipes call for 5% FA Red Touch, can I safely sub it with TFA Strawberry?". Or some such.

What do you think?

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## RichJB (19/4/17)

Ooh, my favourite subject. I think the problem is that generic subs only go so far. Subs will work in some recipes but not in others. For eg, I would imagine that TFA French Vanilla can be subbed for Cap in some cases. However, I asked mlNikon if I could sub it in one of her recipes and she was adamant that it wouldn't work. She was right, too. There is a sharper note in TFA which, in that application, didn't work. But in other recipes, that sharper note might not be a recipe-killer. It might even help the recipe depending on the profile and the other concentrates used. 

One way or another, the community will have to do something about the First Rule as it's getting worse and worse. Kopel has over 800 flavours and there are many recipes he can't make without subbing. With previously under-used lines like OOO, Baker Flavors, Purilum coming on-stream and gaining popularity, it's getting crazy. I saw a recipe the other day that featured several Flavour Monks concentrates. Does the recipe developer think _anybody_ is going to make that without subbing?? I say just chuck in the nearest Moir's equivalent and be done with it. You might have to grimace a bit while vaping it but it's all good.

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## zandernwn (19/4/17)

So I am with Rich on this one. It's so subjective and dependant on the profile in question and often times it can make or break in the recipe. I don't think you can really get to a point where a conclusive list can be made

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## aktorsyl (19/4/17)

You both make a very good point. How about taking it in a slightly different direction? List the recipe with the "prescribed" flavours (from ELR or wherever) and ask for suggestions on substitutions?

For instance, I'm toying with a Nutella recipe at the moment:

Brown Sugar Extra (TPA) 0.5%
Caramel (FA) 0.5%
Cocoa (FA) 1.5%
Cookie (Biscotto) (FA) 1%
Hazelnut (FA) 0.5%
Vienna Cream (FA) 0.5%

But I need to know if Vienna Cream (FA) can be substituted with Sweet Cream (TFA).

(as an example, although that is actually a real question )

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## zandernwn (19/4/17)

That will work

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## RichJB (20/4/17)

Yeah, I think it would be productive to focus it on specific recipes and subs. Another useful function is for people to list successful subs as they try them. So if you make God Milk with a different ingredient and it works well, let folks know.

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## Raindance (20/4/17)

RichJB said:


> Ooh, my favourite subject....
> 
> One way or another, the community will have to do something about the First Rule as it's getting worse and worse. ... but it's all good.



Agree, the first rule to be amended to read: " In any new recipe, there will be at least one ingredient you have never even heard of before."

Regards

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## aktorsyl (20/4/17)

Raindance said:


> Agree, the first rule to be amended to read: " In any new recipe, there will be at least one ingredient you have never even heard of before."
> 
> Regards


Lol, indeed. In fact that was my reaction the first time I saw Bitter Wizard (FA). Sounds like a synonym for Grumpy Gandalf.
(PS: I still have no damn idea what Bitter Wizard is supposed to be)

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## RichJB (20/4/17)

It's apparently most useful for drying out a juicy concentrate when you want a dry mix, like a 'wet' fruit in a tobacco. ConcreteRiver's notes on Bitter Wizard. Sounds a bit weird, I haven't used it or thought of buying it yet.

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## Huffapuff (20/4/17)

Subbing flavours is tricky but there are some that work alright:

TFA Bavarian Cream - Interchangeable w/ FA Vienna Cream @ 1/2 Strength

CAP Super Sweet is about double the strength of TFA Sweetener. 

TFA Cinnamon Danish can be subbed with CAP CDS at around half strength. 

I only use FA Marshmallow, so whatever brand is called for in a recipe I just sub with FA's. 
As @RichJB and @zandernwn mentioned above, there are times when a certain concentrate just has to be used and often the recipe creator will mention this. But if you're going to sub you've gotta be aware that it's not going to be quite right, obviously. While my examples above are ok, they're not perfect and they're not always going to work. 

That being said, if you really want to try a recipe and you're short of one vendor's flavour then sub as best you can. Sure it's not going to be perfect but it beats having nothing! 

Besides, taste is so subjective that you may not even notice any difference between your version and the original. Although the recipe creator will jump up and down screaming heresy

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## Bulldog (16/5/18)

The Aussie Pavlova
Am I kidding myself here - Needing to sub 
FA Juicy Strawberry - I have TFA Strawberry and Strawberry Ripe, CAP sweet strawberry, INW Shisha Strawberry and FA Strawberry Red Touch
TFA Kiwi (double) - I have FW Kiwi
CAP Vanilla Whipped Cream - I have TFA Whipped Cream, CAP Sweet Cream and quite a few other creams.
Thanks in Advance

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## RichJB (16/5/18)

I read an interesting note in a recipe yesterday that TFA Whipped Cream helps to retain the layers in a recipe, Cap Vanilla Whipped blends the layers together in a mush. I don't know how true that is but it's indicative that it's more than just the basic flavour that you need to consider.

That said, I subbed Inw Shisha Strawberry (1%) for the 3% RF Strawberry in Strawberry Jam Monster clone, and it came out fantastic. If it's better with RF Strawberry, I reckon it will be very, very good indeed. I would certainly be more than happy to use Shisha again, the mix lacked nothing and the balance wasn't thrown out at all. 

That said, I also subbed JF Dulce de Leche for FW Butterscotch Natural in another recipe and it ruined it completely. It wasn't that the taste was out but the JF somehow made the whole mix very watery which wasn't a fit for the profile at all. So you pays yer money and you takes yer chances, I guess.

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## Bulldog (16/5/18)

Thanks @RichJB, Will sub the strawberry and add the cream and kiwi to my to order list

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## RainstormZA (16/5/18)

I agree with @RichJB - I once tried to sub cap mint and double chocolate with FW chocolate mint. The most God awful flavouring combination I've ever tasted.

I'll stick to cap cool mint and cap double chocolate, thank you very much...

I can't seem to get away from Capella unless someone recommends a better one like @Paul33 did with the Zeppola concentrate. It was perfect for what I wanted to create.

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## zandernwn (31/5/18)

sorry for the necro but I like this topic and think there is more to discuss.

I think the question is how much you are willing to sacrifice and what the skill set of the flavourist is that shared the recipe. Subbing flavours is usually not a big deal, in most cases you will end up with a tasty vape, but when you start looking at recipes designed by skilled flavourists then you will end up doing the recipe injustice. in well crafted recipes, every flavour (at the given %) is there for a reason and subbing will likely have a significant impact on the outcome.Subbing vienna cream with bav cream as example may not change much in a cream/milkshake recipe... you will lose some of the spicy subtleties in the bav cream and increase the perception of a matly note... will it have a massive impact, likely not... but in a candy recipe where bav cream is used to improve toffee base or a caramel where the aim is to bend a hard crack caramel to a softer textured caramel... vienna cream will have a terrible result... it will break the profile completely or subbing a lemon sicily that adds brightness to a fruity profile with cap lemon lime as an example will result in a more prominent citrus note than what the recipe developer intended.

In the end subbing is a very subjective topic and it is near impossible to put in place a generic sub that will work in most instances. subbing is really only an option in very simple applications.

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