# This is what SA needs!! Come on vendors



## Nightwalker (16/1/16)

So who is gonna step up? 
http://www.sydneyvapor.com.au/collections/recipe-concentrate-packs


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## Christos (16/1/16)

It's not a bad idea as such but there are ethical implications here. For example the cutwood recipe was released by a guy called cutwoodspy who appears to have stolen the recipe.
Basically it boils down to intellectual theft IF what I read is true. 
My opinion is that if you find a decent recipe online why not just buy the constituents seperately and make it yourself?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Nightwalker (16/1/16)

Christos said:


> It's not a bad idea as such but there are ethical implications here. For example the cutwood recipe was released by a guy called cutwoodspy who appears to have stolen the recipe.
> Basically it boils down to intellectual theft IF what I read is true.
> My opinion is that if you find a decent recipe online why not just buy the constituents seperately and make it yourself?


It really doesn't have to be clones, but rather popular mixes.
As to buying the ingredients, not all vendors have all the stock. You will go through the process and find out of stock or they don't have it. This way, you click add to cart. If they are out, two options, pre order or choose another recipe.
Theese days, the easier things are the faster they sell


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## Lingogrey (16/1/16)

shaun patrick said:


> So who is gonna step up?
> http://www.sydneyvapor.com.au/collections/recipe-concentrate-packs


Hi @shaun patrick

Good idea, but the main problem that I see with this is that a number of concentrates are used in many clones. If you ordered all of the concentrate packs on the Sydneyvapor site, for example, you would end up with eight 10 ml bottles of TFA Sweet Cream (used in 8 of the recipes and with each pack you will get a 10 ml bottle), 7 each of Cotton Candy and Ripe Strawberry and 6 bottles of Bavarian Cream. You will thus have a massive amount of certain flavour concentrates, that will take you ages to finish (in most of these recipes some of the very common concentrates are also used in quite low percentages, eg. something like Cotton Candy) whilst you would actually have quite a limited variety of other flavours for experimentation.

It also seems that this specific site chose those clones which are in general very heavy on TFA only flavours (two of the recipes are CAP only and I saw one FW concentrate. However, no FA {or FLV or INW for that matter, but these two are not that common in clones}). This is just baseless speculation, but I would hazard a guess that these choices were made according to what they readily have in stock and also the fact that TFA is the least expensive of the six / seven major flavour houses when bought in bulk.

Personally, I would thus rather suggest just finding the best recipes (Somebody like ENYAWREKLAW makes great recipes available with his consent) that you can find on e-liquid-recipes, Reddit DIY or Kritikalmass and ordering the specific concentrates. That way you could also see which recipes that fall in your flavour profile share the most ingredients and order those concentrates that you could use in a number of recipes (but you won't be 'forced' to get 6 - 8 bottles of each as in the above scenario )

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 6


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## Christos (16/1/16)

shaun patrick said:


> It really doesn't have to be clones, but rather popular mixes.
> As to buying the ingredients, not all vendors have all the stock. You will go through the process and find out of stock or they don't have it. This way, you click add to cart. If they are out, two options, pre order or choose another recipe.
> Theese days, the easier things are the faster they sell


My reservation is that these juices are being sold based on sombody else's successful marketing I. E. The guy who made an amazing juice and now it's been cloned. It would make me happier if they used different names for the item.
What I'm trying to say is that it's a good idea but I would not condone using names of popular juices. Perhaps if the recipes were unique or renamed.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## DaveH (16/1/16)

I voted 'NO' because I think it is theft.
Dave

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## method1 (16/1/16)

I'd be open to selling the mixed concentrate for my products - the same as GGG (gunners gold gourmet) do - if there was enough demand.
Wouldn't be selling no clones/top 10 ELR recipes though.

I agree with the sentiments of some other posts above - selling some ELR/Reddit/Les Clones recipe, using the same name as the original, not even crediting the author.. I could go on

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


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## zadiac (16/1/16)

I voted no because I agree with @Lingogrey . You're gonna end up with a crapload of one flavor and a little of another. If you just want to mix one specific juice for yourself, then yes, it would be nice to buy a ready made pack, but say you want to try all of those flavors, then you'll end up with a crapload of one or two flavors and just a little of some.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lingogrey (16/1/16)

DaveH said:


> I voted 'NO' because I think it is theft.
> Dave


To a certain extent I agree. However, many of us buy clones of for instance RDA's (I am not saying that you do that, just many others - I have done this myself and quite probably will again. I'd rather prefer an original of a cheaper brand like Wotofo where my money partly 'goes for the design'. However, if I really want a Velocity I cannot afford to pay $ 115 for an original). In principle, I don't really see a difference between vendors selling cloned hardware (as long as they state this openly of course) and vendors selling the prepackaged ingredients for cloned juices. As a matter of fact, the only difference in principle is actually that cloned hardware is already 'assembled', we do not simply buy the prepackaged ingredients to make the RDA according to instructions (analogous to a cloned juice recipe). This is actually then closer to selling the finished product of cloned juices.

To be clear, I am not saying: "Well - We are selling and buying cloned hardware; thus, there can't possibly be anything wrong with buying / selling cloned juice / the prepackaged ingredients for cloned juice". Rather, it is quite possible that both instances would amount to theft (to use your term) and this is something we should then be consistent about.

Once again, I am not saying that you personally aren't consistent. Me, however - I've seen a local juice brand that is not a registered vendor on this forum sell a juice with the exact name of a well-known international juice and the exact same flavour description (I don't think there's any problem with personal 'takes' on well-known juices and there are many in circulation. This had the exact same name and flavour description though). I find this highly unethical, but yet I would buy a Velocity clone?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## method1 (16/1/16)

You make some good points Lingo - food for thought.

I guess another issue with clones is that you may get something solid & reliable, (or tasty) - or you may just get garbage.

99% of the juice clones out there aren't even close, aside from a very few notable exceptions.
Cloned hardware on the other hand is usually pretty close, although Ive experienced some fails in that department too!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Christos (16/1/16)

Lingogrey said:


> To a certain extent I agree. However, many of us buy clones of for instance RDA's (I am not saying that you do that, just many others - I have done this myself and quite probably will again. I'd rather prefer an original of a cheaper brand like Wotofo where my money partly 'goes for the design'. However, if I really want a Velocity I cannot afford to pay $ 115 for an original). In principle, I don't really see a difference between vendors selling cloned hardware (as long as they state this openly of course) and vendors selling the prepackaged ingredients for cloned juices. As a matter of fact, the only difference in principle is actually that cloned hardware is already 'assembled', we do not simply buy the prepackaged ingredients to make the RDA according to instructions (analogous to a cloned juice recipe). This is actually then closer to selling the finished product of cloned juices.
> 
> To be clear, I am not saying: "Well - We are selling and buying cloned hardware; thus, there can't possibly be anything wrong with buying / selling cloned juice / the prepackaged ingredients for cloned juice". Rather, it is quite possible that both instances would amount to theft (to use your term) and this is something we should then be consistent about.
> 
> Once again, I am not saying that you personally aren't consistent. Me, however - I've seen a local juice brand that is not a registered vendor on this forum sell a juice with the exact name of a well-known international juice and the exact same flavour description (I don't think there's any problem with personal 'takes' on well-known juices and there are many in circulation. This had the exact same name and flavour description though). I find this highly unethical, but yet I would buy a Velocity clone?


Very valid point indeed. I took what you are saying to heart a few months ago and only buy authentic gear. 
It is rather difficult for the average vaper to know the implications of the clones as the supply chain favors shelves being stocked and in our case with clones. 
The price is also appealing because no smoker would pay R5k for a setup when thinking about how many smoke that will buy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blu_Marlin (16/1/16)

shaun patrick said:


> So who is gonna step up?
> http://www.sydneyvapor.com.au/collections/recipe-concentrate-packs


Suggested something like this here. But I get what @Christos @DaveH @method1 and @Lingogrey is saying. At some point in my vape journey I made a conscious decision to not buy any clones. Be it rda`s, tanks or mods. I feel as if I’m robbing the original manufacture. Although looking at the price of the authentic stuff, sometimes I feel as if they are robbing us .

Looking at the DIY sample box thread maybe this might spark some enthusiasts into developing premixed concentrates, based on the popularity of their DIY`s, for sale. Depending on the profit margins vs the work involved this might also be an opportunity for our loved local mixologists to follow this route at some point.


N.B. It`s taking me a long time to save up for that Twisted Messes and Phenotype-L rda`s.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Lingogrey (16/1/16)

Christos said:


> Very valid point indeed. I took what you are saying to heart a few months ago and only buy authentic gear.
> It is rather difficult for the average vaper to know the implications of the clones as the supply chain favors shelves being stocked and in our case with clones.
> The price is also appealing because no smoker would pay R5k for a setup when thinking about how many smoke that will buy.





Blu_Marlin said:


> Suggested something like this here. But I get what @Christos @DaveH @method1 and @Lingogrey is saying. At some point in my vape journey I made a conscious decision to not buy any clones. Be it rda`s, tanks or mods. I feel as if I’m robbing the original manufacture. Although looking at the price of the authentic stuff, sometimes I feel as if they are robbing us .
> 
> Looking at the DIY sample box thread maybe this might spark some enthusiasts into developing premixed concentrates, based on the popularity of their DIY`s, for sale. Depending on the profit margins vs the work involved this might also be an opportunity for our loved local mixologists to follow this route at some point.
> 
> ...


You guys are better persons than I am. Although I try to buy authentic whenever possible (and with tanks and mods that are generally reasonably priced in any case, it's not hard to do so), I'll probably still buy certain clone RDA's in future.

This might just be me trying to sooth my conscience with some justification (and it's speculative in any case), but it does seem that certain designers / manufacturers price their products according to the logic that many clones will be made and sold; therefore they will milk the last cent out of those who do buy the authentic (perhaps related to @Blu_Marlin 's statement of feeling that "they are robbing us"). For instance, I do not see how a Velocity could be $ 65 more expensive to manufacturer and distribute than a Twisted Messes / Phenotype-L.

In the case of for instance the latter two RDA's I would try my best to buy the original. They are expensive, but not ridiculously so and still within reach of many vapers (albeit with more patience / effort / sacrifices of other gear). With something of a $100 plus, though, I would not be able to justify spending that to myself (even if I could afford it) and I cannot see how that asking price for something that probably cost around $ 10 to manufacture could be justified in the first place (yes, Cisco and Dino did put experience, expertise, talent, time and effort into the design and they must eat, but so did / must Kent and a Twisted Messes is not $ 115).

JayBo actually started collaborating with Wismec on the Bambino as a way to deal with some of the problems of originals being non affordable / the inevitability of clones. On the one hand, it would be great to see more of that. On the other hand, it would be a pity if 'smaller' designers all get gobbled up by huge corporations. Thus, once again I don't quite know where to stand on this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BuzzGlo (16/1/16)

A clone isnt the real deal. I dont see the harm in selling whats available already on the net. cost of juice is like 50c which is being sold at R3-R8 a ml.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaveH (16/1/16)

Hi @Lingogrey I don't want you or anyone else to think I'm on some sort of "high moral road" I'm just as bad as everyone else.
I was voting on what I thought the question was ........ "Do you want a shop (Vendor) like this in South Africa" my answer is still no, because I think it will impact in an unfair and detrimental manner with the locally produced ejuices. 
I should point out I only buy locally produced ejuices I just prefer to support South Africa than the USA .......... just my choice.

Dave

Reactions: Like 2


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## Christos (16/1/16)

Lingogrey said:


> You guys are better persons than I am. Although I try to buy authentic whenever possible (and with tanks and mods that are generally reasonably priced in any case, it's not hard to do so), I'll probably still buy certain clone RDA's in future.
> 
> This might just be me trying to sooth my conscience with some justification (and it's speculative in any case), but it does seem that certain designers / manufacturers price their products according to the logic that many clones will be made and sold; therefore they will milk the last cent out of those who do buy the authentic (perhaps related to @Blu_Marlin 's statement of feeling that "they are robbing us"). For instance, I do not see how a Velocity could be $ 65 more expensive to manufacturer and distribute than a Twisted Messes / Phenotype-L.
> 
> ...


I have bought a lot of clones in my vape journey. I have found that the clones tends to be poorly made. As an example I bought 2 clone attys where the original cost 125$. 
The clones are useless now as the posts have rusted. 
On the other hand I have been using cyclones daily for the past 2 months or longer pushing on average 15ml a day through them and they still have not shown any oxidisation. They are not Chinese stainless steel if you catch my drift. 
I would rather pay 3 times the amount for a working atty than buy it 3 times. 
All that aside the Chinese don't usually stand behind their products but the expensive originals would 9/10 times provide exceptional after sales service.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Christos (16/1/16)

Lingogrey said:


> You guys are better persons than I am. Although I try to buy authentic whenever possible (and with tanks and mods that are generally reasonably priced in any case, it's not hard to do so), I'll probably still buy certain clone RDA's in future.
> 
> This might just be me trying to sooth my conscience with some justification (and it's speculative in any case), but it does seem that certain designers / manufacturers price their products according to the logic that many clones will be made and sold; therefore they will milk the last cent out of those who do buy the authentic (perhaps related to @Blu_Marlin 's statement of feeling that "they are robbing us"). For instance, I do not see how a Velocity could be $ 65 more expensive to manufacturer and distribute than a Twisted Messes / Phenotype-L.
> 
> ...


Also I don't think I am fundamentally a better person. I would rather spend the money I save on new toys and a decent education for my son. If the clones were made to be better quality and cheaper I might just change my position based on what school fees are these days for a decent private schooling.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Blu_Marlin (16/1/16)

Lingogrey said:


> *You guys are better persons than I am*.


Not really @Lingogrey I`ve seen your posts and the help/advice you offer to the community. I can safely say that I`ve probably taken more than I`ve given to this fourm. I’m lucky in the sense that I don’t chase technology. I don’t but new mods all the time. I will however try some new hardware from time to time just to get the feel of it. I recently bought two tanks and 2 regulated mods that were highly rated to test. After 2 weeks of use I’m back on my mech mod and drippers and those tanks as well as one of the mods will most probably be in the for sale section or PIFed soon.

The Twisted Messes/Phenotype-L I want purely for cloud chasing.

I also don’t mean to come across as taking the “high moral road” as well. My monthly spend on tanks and mods is almost non existent because my regular setup has carried me through the last 8 months and it will do so for a long time into the future.

Now back on topic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lingogrey (16/1/16)

Blu_Marlin said:


> Not really @Lingogrey I`ve seen your posts and the help/advice you offer to the community. I can safely say that I`ve probably taken more than I`ve given to this fourm. I’m lucky in the sense that I don’t chase technology. I don’t but new mods all the time. I will however try some new hardware from time to time just to get the feel of it. I recently bought two tanks and 2 regulated mods that were highly rated to test. After 2 weeks of use I’m back on my mech mod and drippers and those tanks as well as one of the mods will most probably be in the for sale section or PIFed soon.
> 
> The Twisted Messes/Phenotype-L I want purely for cloud chasing.
> 
> ...


 - thank you, but I've taken WAY more than I could ever hope to offer!

Yes, sorry for derailing your thread @shaun patrick ! Back to original topic


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## Nightwalker (16/1/16)

I like how this topic has changed direction. I'm learning a lot from u guys. Keep it up

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## method1 (16/1/16)

Another thing - that site is Australian - due to severe restrictions in AUS, it's extremely difficult for them to import ready mixed juices from the USA etc.

Clones aside, in that type of environment the above business model starts making a little more sense.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 2


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## Christos (16/1/16)

It would be nice to have mixes e.g. a peach mix with a punch and something to smooth it out. I don't like CAP peaches and cream but a modified peach flavour with maybe 2% something smooth but not milky pre mixed in 10ml.

I mean it would be a lot less intimidating if there were decent flavours bottled that just required mixing in the desired pg vg ratio and nicotine strength for the individual. 
Imagine how happy @Silver would be if he could buy Debbie does donuts and mix it to his pg vg liking and make it 18mg nic without diluting the flavour.
It does sound like an extra step but the way regulations are going it might be easier if nicotine is regulated only and we do mixing of non regulated items to regulated nicotine.

Reactions: Like 3


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## method1 (16/1/16)

Christos said:


> It would be nice to have mixes e.g. a peach mix with a punch and something to smooth it out. I don't like CAP peaches and cream but a modified peach flavour with maybe 2% something smooth but not milky pre mixed in 10ml.
> 
> I mean it would be a lot less intimidating if there were decent flavours bottled that just required mixing in the desired pg vg ratio and nicotine strength for the individual.
> Imagine how happy @Silver would be if he could buy Debbie does donuts and mix it to his pg vg liking and make it 18mg nic without diluting the flavour.
> It does sound like an extra step but the way regulations are going it might be easier if nicotine is regulated only and we do mixing of non regulated items to regulated nicotine.



That is pretty much how they have to do it in AUS, we'll have to see what regulations are put in place and then how to work around them 
Maybe someone should start a poll and see what kind of interest there really is in non-clone pre-mixed concentrates.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Christos (16/1/16)

method1 said:


> That is pretty much how they have to do it in AUS, we'll have to see what regulations are put in place and then how to work around them
> Maybe someone should start a poll and see what kind of interest there really is in non-clone pre-mixed concentrates.


I personally wouldn't mind this approach. 
Out of interest would you be willing to give a ballpark figure of how much you would be willing to sell DDD in this form?


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## Christos (16/1/16)

Christos said:


> I personally wouldn't mind this approach.
> Out of interest would you be willing to give a ballpark figure of how much you would be willing to sell DDD in this form?


I'd be looking at making 250 to 500 ml per go because 30ml doesn't go very far.

Reactions: Like 1


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## method1 (16/1/16)

Christos said:


> I personally wouldn't mind this approach.
> Out of interest would you be willing to give a ballpark figure of how much you would be willing to sell DDD in this form?



Let's take this to PM as I can't discuss that in this thread.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## shaunnadan (17/1/16)

method1 said:


> I'd be open to selling the mixed concentrate for my products - the same as GGG (gunners gold gourmet) do - if there was enough demand.
> Wouldn't be selling no clones/top 10 ELR recipes though.
> 
> I agree with the sentiments of some other posts above - selling some ELR/Reddit/Les Clones recipe, using the same name as the original, not even crediting the author.. I could go on



Just out of curiosity ... Would you sell a 10ml bottle of concentrate- tell the buyer to cut it x:y at z% and they could have a 50ml juice when they got home? 

I'm asking for travel purposes where your limited by how much you can take across the border

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## method1 (17/1/16)

shaunnadan said:


> Just out of curiosity ... Would you sell a 10ml bottle of concentrate- tell the buyer to cut it x:y at z% and they could have a 50ml juice when they got home?
> 
> I'm asking for travel purposes where your limited by how much you can take across the border


 
Yes, that's how it would work.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## shaunnadan (17/1/16)

method1 said:


> Yes, that's how it would work.



Good to know !

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nightwalker (17/1/16)

It appears, even though my approach was wrong, an idea has been born. A premixed contenrate in a bottle to make a larger quantity of a person's own preference of nic and pg/vg could be on the table


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## stevie g (17/1/16)

BuzzGlo said:


> A clone isnt the real deal. I dont see the harm in selling whats available already on the net. cost of juice is like 50c which is being sold at R3-R8 a ml.


That is accounting for other costs that I won't go into but the one that I've found most "expensive" is time. Being a vendor takes time and effort and these things have a very real cost involved.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Frostbite (17/1/16)

We had a look at doing flavor packs like these but decided against them. Cloning recipes just isn't cool. It also ruins the experimentation part of diy. Much more rewarding building a juice from the ground up.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Dubz (17/1/16)

Frostbite said:


> We had a look at doing flavor packs like these but decided against them. Cloning recipes just isn't cool. It also ruins the experimentation part of dying. Much more rewarding building a juice from the ground up.


I'm sure you meant DIYing and not dying .

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Frostbite (17/1/16)

Damn autocorrect

Reactions: Funny 3


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## rogue zombie (17/1/16)

Frostbite said:


> We had a look at doing flavor packs like these but decided against them. Cloning recipes just isn't cool. It also ruins the experimentation part of dying. Much more rewarding building a juice from the ground up.


I disagree to some extent. 

The way I see it, clone recipes are almost always not exactly the same. I mean it will get you a similar profile to a juice you like.

Look at Placid for example, there is a bunch of clones online. Apperently they only represent the profile of the juice, so they not spot on. AND with people trying to clone it, it actually boosted sales of the real thing, because it drew so much attention to the juice.



Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

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## Andre (17/1/16)

I have no problems with clones, gear or juices. As long as they do not impinge on any legal rights.

In Australia retailers cannot sell juices with nicotine as the selling of nicotine is unlawful. But an individual is allowed to import a 3 month supply of nicotine for personal use. So vendors only sell bases.

My questions on this: You still have 2 variables - the PG/VG ratio and the strength of nicotine. Does that not affect the recipe. For example, will @method1's DDD base for a 70/30 juice with 18 mg nicotine not look different to a DDD base for a 50/50 juice with 3 mg nicotine. Bearing in mind that we only have 36 mg nicotine available locally. And that does not even consider the effect of different brands of nic, PG and VG on a juice.

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## Nightwalker (17/1/16)

Andre said:


> I have no problems with clones, gear or juices. As long as they do not impinge on any legal rights.
> 
> In Australia retailers cannot sell juices with nicotine as the selling of nicotine is unlawful. But an individual is allowed to import a 3 month supply of nicotine for personal use. So vendors only sell bases.
> 
> My questions on this: You still have 2 variables - the PG/VG ratio and the strength of nicotine. Does that not affect the recipe. For example, will @method1's DDD base for a 70/30 juice with 18 mg nicotine not look different to a DDD base for a 50/50 juice with 3 mg nicotine. Bearing in mind that we only have 36 mg nicotine available locally. And that does not even consider the effect of different brands of nic, PG and VG on a juice.


I personally have not changed ddd yet. And for the price I paid, R270, I wouldn't want to. (Yes I got ripped off badly, but I learnt my lesson, still yummy though) I found a vendor that sells its real price.
But there are some juices out there that I always add nic to. I vape 18mg. 
Does not change the flavour to much

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver (17/1/16)

Thread moved to "Who has stock" earlier, just pointing that out


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## Nightwalker (17/1/16)

Silver said:


> Thread moved to "Who has stock" earlier, just pointing that out


Really didn't notice. Hahahaha, I think this topic has changed in its core to more of an ethical debate


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## BuzzGlo (17/1/16)

The thing I actually like about this idea is that you have separate concentrates and a recipe, this way you can experiment and vape something decent while you focus your cash on DIY. 

So maybe not clone recipes, maybe a DIY starter kit which has everything you need and say 10 recipes that are decent with the concentrates to make those. DIY is a journey, a costly one. So many try, fail and then give up. Something like this would be helpful to the newbie DIY enthusiast.

Reactions: Like 2


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## shaunnadan (17/1/16)

Andre said:


> I have no problems with clones, gear or juices. As long as they do not impinge on any legal rights.
> 
> In Australia retailers cannot sell juices with nicotine as the selling of nicotine is unlawful. But an individual is allowed to import a 3 month supply of nicotine for personal use. So vendors only sell bases.
> 
> My questions on this: You still have 2 variables - the PG/VG ratio and the strength of nicotine. Does that not affect the recipe. For example, will @method1's DDD base for a 70/30 juice with 18 mg nicotine not look different to a DDD base for a 50/50 juice with 3 mg nicotine. Bearing in mind that we only have 36 mg nicotine available locally. And that does not even consider the effect of different brands of nic, PG and VG on a juice.



@method1 can comment on this : 

@Andre - in essence it does affect the recipe. If a juice is made up of 20% flavouring and you wanted a 50/50 they you add some pg and nic. 

To make it a 90/10max vg juice there will be too much flavouring for the "calculator" to work it out and you couldn't add the desired amount of nic. It would rather suggest you do a 75/25 kinda ratio. You then add a little nice and almost no pg 

In any variation the 20% flavouring stays the same but the recipe is definitely different. Vg/pg ratios are important to a recipes taste

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## rogue zombie (17/1/16)

Yip pg/vg ratio definitely changes the recipe to a certain extent.

I remember Fizzmustard pointing out that the Bombies Nana Cream clone should be made at 70VG for some or other reason.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

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## method1 (17/1/16)

shaun patrick said:


> And for the price I paid, R270, I wouldn't want to. (Yes I got ripped off badly, but I learnt my lesson, still yummy though) I found a vendor that sells its real price.



What? Please PM me the details of what happened?



shaunnadan said:


> @method1 can comment on this :
> 
> @Andre - in essence it does affect the recipe. If a juice is made up of 20% flavouring and you wanted a 50/50 they you add some pg and nic.
> 
> ...



If using a calc you'd just have to set it to "max vg" if you're going for the highest VG possible.

I've tried DDD at a wide range of vg/pg ratios - it does work between in ranges between 60/40 - 80/20, takes longer to steep with higher VG. 70/30 is the sweet spot IMO.

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## Ripstorm (20/1/16)

What are your takes on vendors selling cloned juice (or top 100 ELR juice) as their own? Only changing the name of the juice
Also, do you guys think it's OK if a vendor uses a cloned recipe as a base and change the ingredients a bit to their pallate and sell it as their own?


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## method1 (20/1/16)

Ripstorm said:


> What are your takes on vendors selling cloned juice (or top 100 ELR juice) as their own? Only changing the name of the juice
> Also, do you guys think it's OK if a vendor uses a cloned recipe as a base and change the ingredients a bit to their pallate and sell it as their own?



This goes on all the time anyway - the more seasoned vapers can generally pick up a clone or familiar profile, so ultimately it depends on the vendor's philosophy - are you trying to create something new and original, or rehash the classics?

And then most ELR recipes are disappointing, there have only been a handful I truly liked, there's a ton of garbage to wade through, even in the top 20.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Andre (20/1/16)

Ripstorm said:


> What are your takes on vendors selling cloned juice (or top 100 ELR juice) as their own? Only changing the name of the juice
> Also, do you guys think it's OK if a vendor uses a cloned recipe as a base and change the ingredients a bit to their pallate and sell it as their own?


It does not bother me at all. Supermarket shelves are full of copied (with or without variations) products. As long as no legal rights are infringed.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Nightwalker (20/1/16)

Found a company that does something that is close to this. I love that they do it. They show recipes that anyone can get online and have a link to each individual flavors. They rock


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