# Clones - The Good, Bad & Ugly



## Timwis (4/12/19)

A touchy subject to some but with the price of high end vaping products and certainly it seems like an economic downturn for most you can't blame vapers buying clones. But which ones are very good, which ones not so much but still worth the money and which ones are just garbage?

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Rob Fisher (4/12/19)

I will take the 5th on this issue! Way too of an emotional subject for me.

Reactions: Like 6


----------



## KZOR (4/12/19)

The Hadaly was descent, the SVA squonker great and the Dvarw not too shabby either.

Reactions: Like 7 | Informative 1


----------



## Asterix (4/12/19)

I agree . I thought about buying a clone Dvarw while at Vapecon, but couldn’t do it. Just seemed like being “unfaithful”. And I can guarantee that if I had bought it and not liked it, I would still wonder if it was because it wasn’t the original. 

Not judging clones at all, just my personal feelings.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## vicTor (4/12/19)

these days clones are out basically same time the authentic is released, how they do it, I have no clue

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


----------



## Timwis (4/12/19)

KZOR said:


> The Hadaly was descent, the SVA squonker great and the Dvarw not too shabby either.


But are all those just cloned by one of the clone manufactures as i know certain atty's are cloned by more than one so while one cloned (just for example) Doogystyle might be very good the clone from someone else could leak like crazy and generally just be garbage?

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


----------



## Timwis (4/12/19)

vicTor said:


> these days clones are out basically same time the authentic is released, how they do it, I have no clue


Same as when we have a new concept or shape of mod they all come out simultaneously for example the RPM and Vinci whichever was first i can't remember but one wasn't a reaction to the other after release they were too close together for that it's obvious nearly all vaping manufactures have spies in their midst or those willing to sell info, sounds very James Bond but i'm convinced espionage is a foot throughout vaping!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (4/12/19)

My Skyfall and Hadaly clones are great. Dont really understand, if its a 1/1 clone it should vape exactly like the real one, only difference maybe quality of materials, but both my rda' havent rusted and vapes great.
As for my Limelight clone. I use it daily, cant even count how many falls it has taken, even had a swim in the pool and havent missed a beat. Its my daily carry and for the few bucks it cost I just dont care about it, even used it for a hammer a few times.yes half the paint is off, not chipped, plain worn of as it probably only got one coat of cheap paint over the white plastic body. But who cares, what a great reliable mod, maybe I will give it a new paint job one day

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Adephi (4/12/19)

My SXK Billet Box finally gave up after 2 years. Worked daily and did what it suppose to. Don't know if I can get something similar for fruity flavors. Single coils seem to be a rarity these days.

I have compared it to the authentic and there is a huge difference. You can just feel the quality in the authentic. I do understand why somebody will go for it if they can afford it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


----------



## Timwis (4/12/19)

Adephi said:


> My SXK Billet Box finally gave up after 2 years. Worked daily and did what it suppose to. Don't know if I can get something similar for fruity flavors. Single coils seem to be a rarity these days.
> 
> I have compared it to the authentic and there is a huge difference. You can just feel the quality in the authentic. I do understand why somebody will go for it if they can afford it.


Wouldn't the Boro tank out of your now broken Billet Box work in the SXK Bantam Box?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## RichJB (4/12/19)

Timwis said:


> Same as when we have a new concept or shape of mod they all come out simultaneously for example the RPM and Vinci whichever was first i can't remember but one wasn't a reaction to the other after release they were too close together for that it's obvious nearly all vaping manufactures have spies in their midst or those willing to sell info, sounds very James Bond but i'm convinced espionage is a foot throughout vaping!



It was amazing that both Billy (Heathen) and Brian from TVC had basically the same idea for the drop-in posts on the Dead Rabbit and the Drop at much the same time.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Timwis (4/12/19)

Adephi said:


> My SXK Billet Box finally gave up after 2 years. Worked daily and did what it suppose to. Don't know if I can get something similar for fruity flavors. Single coils seem to be a rarity these days.
> 
> I have compared it to the authentic and there is a huge difference. You can just feel the quality in the authentic. I do understand why somebody will go for it if they can afford it.


Yeah i have just a couple of higher end atty's and the materials used are just better quality. If i had plenty of money of course i would buy high end, would love a strangers mod, maybe one day!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Adephi (4/12/19)

Timwis said:


> Wouldn't the Boro tank out of your now broken Billet Box work in the SXK Bantam Box?



it could. But I'm not too keen on the smaller battery. One of the things I liked about the BB was the long battery life. A 30q lasted up to 4 days on 18w.

Reactions: Like 1 | Can relate 1


----------



## Timwis (4/12/19)

Adephi said:


> it could. But I'm not too keen on the smaller battery. One of the things I liked about the BB was the long battery life. A 30q lasted up to 4 days on 18w.


I hear you, those 30q batteries are cracking for low wattage!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Puff the Magic Dragon (5/12/19)

Timwis said:


> But are all those just cloned by one of the clone manufactures as i know certain atty's are cloned by more than one so while one cloned (just for example) Doogystyle might be very good the clone from someone else could leak like crazy and generally just be garbage?



The clone world seems to have its own hierarchy.

There are a few manufacturers which generally bring out good quality products. IMO they are SXK, Kindbright, Coppervape, and YFTK.

The remainder are totally unknown manufacturers and are cheaper than the well-known clone makers. The original high-end item's price is very high. The known cloners' prices are cheap, and the unknown cloners' items are very, very cheap. 

When it comes to the quality of the materials used by the cloners I'm not sure that they always use inferior materials. I have clones from unknown makers (very cheap) that are almost five years old. In the "old days," it was almost impossible to get decent kit without buying clones. They are all still in excellent condition. I have never stripped a screw and the stainless or aluminum is still perfect with no signs of corrosion.

The "known" cloners generally make excellent attys. Some of them even make their own original products. The Coppervape BF mech squonker is a vaping legend. Just ask @Raindance about his one. It came out in 2016 and is still sold today. Moreover, you can still buy a spares kit with replacement parts as well as the bottles. Spare parts for cloned vape products are often freely available, unlike many original manufacturers of vape products.

I bought a Coppervape Skyline in 2017. It has been very well used and is still in near perfect condition. I have never needed to replace o rings on it. 

In the early days of vaping, cloning was more of an issue because some of the high-end manufacturers came up with genuinely innovative products or an innovative part of a product. The stealing of intellectual property was rightly seen as an issue. As far as I am aware none of these products were ever patented and/or copyrighted. These days there is very little genuine innovation and almost everything is being "copied". We often see YouTube reviewers saying that "..this is very similar to....". 

Nowadays, when it comes to attys, the vast majority of high-end products are not copied simply because they are not that innovative. When it comes to mods they are copied even less. High-end mods sometimes use expensive materials and/or are clearly handmade. These are seldom if ever copied, perhaps because the price difference would not be that great, or because they would not have universal appeal. 

We should also bear in mind that clones of original Chinese products are probably far more plentiful than copies of high-end products.

The cloning issue will always be divisive, especially on the forum. We have reached a point where we all know that it is best to just agree to differ on this issue. This doesn't mean that it cannot be discussed. IMO the point that @Timwis raised is valid and worthy of an answer.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 5


----------



## Timwis (5/12/19)

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> The clone world seems to have its own hierarchy.
> 
> There are a few manufacturers which generally bring out good quality products. IMO they are SXK, Kindbright, Coppervape, and YFTK.
> 
> ...


Yeah if vaping manufacture was any other form of industry their would be more law suits than vaping products but vaping seems to have a life of it's own that doesn't follow any rules. But it's this shall i just say borrowing of ideas in general and then looking at it with fresh eyes that has moved vaping on so quickly and been such a success. The downside of this is it's made big tobacco, pharmaceutical companies who want to make the bucks from smoking alternatives and governments seeing a loss in tax revenues so nervous of vaping they play dirty to smear and try to bring the vaping industry crashing down!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## ARYANTO (6/12/19)

Save up and buy the real thing , a vape connoisseur [ @Rob Fisher and co.] will spot your fake atty a mile away- there goes your street cred as well and will you buy a fake juice to go with it ?
Have some pride , you don't need 27 atties , 2 originals will do the same, and better job._* IMO.*_

Reactions: Disagree 2


----------



## Timwis (6/12/19)

ARYANTO said:


> Save up and buy the real thing , a vape connoisseur [ @Rob Fisher and co.] will spot your fake atty a mile away- there goes your street cred as well and will you buy a fake juice to go with it ?
> Have some pride , you don't need 27 atties , 2 originals will do the same, and better job. IMO.


I put disagree against your comment because i thought it was a loud of rubbish, it's nothing to do with street cred as people who buy clones quite openly say it's a clone i have never come across someone using a clone and trying to pass it on as the genuine product!

Reactions: Agree 4 | Funny 1


----------



## ARYANTO (6/12/19)

''it's nothing to do with street cred as people who buy clones quite openly say it's a clone i have never come across someone using a clone and trying to pass it on as the genuine product!''
That's not what the guy said who tried to sell me his rip off Dead Rabbit.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Timwis (6/12/19)

ARYANTO said:


> ''it's nothing to do with street cred as people who buy clones quite openly say it's a clone i have never come across someone using a clone and trying to pass it on as the genuine product!''
> That's not what the guy said who tried to sell me his rip off Dead Rabbit.


That's not a normal vaper but just a con artist who probably rips people off at every opportunity.

Reactions: Agree 4


----------



## Timwis (6/12/19)

Timwis said:


> That's not a normal vaper but just a con artist who probably rips people off at every opportunity.


I don't understand why atty's like the Dead Rabbit are cloned anyway it's hardly high end, the original is reasonably priced

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Raindance (6/12/19)

Now, now girls, get back in your kennels! Both of you.

Lol

Sincere regards

Reactions: Funny 5


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (6/12/19)

Once I show my coolbox, I normally have street cred, so no need to have a mod made from Chuck Norris's toe nails.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 5


----------



## Timwis (6/12/19)

ARYANTO said:


> Save up and buy the real thing , a vape connoisseur [ @Rob Fisher and co.] will spot your fake atty a mile away- there goes your street cred as well and will you buy a fake juice to go with it ?
> Have some pride , you don't need 27 atties , 2 originals will do the same, and better job. IMO.


We know @Rob Fisher vapes at his now famous 28W restricted direct lung style and he just bought the Taifun GTR RTA because now there is a DL post available for it i imagine was a separate purchase. I know prices vary but the first site i came to just for the Taifun GTR RTA it was £136.95 and by his own admission he was disappointed because no way is it giving a direct lung vape. The majority of vapers would be in tears if that happened with partners on their case telling them what better use that money could of been made of. Those that are very anti clones tend to be in a position where they can either afford to buy the original or wouldn't take much to save, others are not in that position!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


----------



## ARYANTO (6/12/19)

Well neither my Dani or Dvarw dropped out of the sky , I saved for it but seeing I'm talking rubbish , I'll shut up .

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Timwis (6/12/19)

ARYANTO said:


> Well neither my Dani or Dvarw dropped out of the sky , I saved for it but seeing I'm talking rubbish , I'll shut up .


But just because you did doesn't mean others can, they start to save and then the kids need new shoes, start to save again and the vacuum cleaner goes up the spout.

Reactions: Agree 5


----------



## Silver (6/12/19)

@Timwis, I know your thread was more about which clones are good versus not so good, but I dont have much experience with clones, so can't contribute on that front.

My main experience with clones was near the beginning of my vaping when I got a Kayfun 3.1 clone, (not sure what clone manufacturer) and no matter what I did it leaked. I tried so many ways to get it working - checked Youtube vids, asked many people etc. But it just didnt work and leaked so badly - once it dumped 5Pawns Bowdens Mate in my car seat and it took ages to get that smell out. Since then I did not like Kayfuns at all. I thought they were just badly designed devices.

Advance the clock a few years and I did more research and ended up buying 2 authentic Kayfuns. They worked beautifully and it changed my whole view on them. Not saying all clones do this sort of thing - but when cloning a fairly complex RTA I suppose things can go wrong. That was just my experience and some people who know me from back then will know how I struggled with that device!

Allow me to add the following from my perspective:

The clone discussion has reared its head many times on the forum.
There are those that are against it and those that are for it.

I can understand the issue of using an idea from another manufacturer in your product. As someone said, these products are very rarely patented, so I can see why the manufacturers use ideas from others to improve their product. E.g a clever way of designing the post or the airflow etc.

But when a cloner takes an original product (eg a Kayfun) and copies it exactly from top to bottom and even uses the logo of the other company on the product and the package - i.e. using someone else's hard work to make a buck - well that just doesn't sit well with me. But that's just my view.

Reactions: Winner 3


----------



## Timwis (6/12/19)

ARYANTO said:


> Well neither my Dani or Dvarw dropped out of the sky , I saved for it but seeing I'm talking rubbish , I'll shut up .


And more the power to you, i'm not saying you can't have your opinion but i can also disagree with it, it's not my experience people buy clones to pass as the originals for street cred. And that dead rabbit was being passed as the original obviously to rip you off which is disgusting but nothing to do with people passing clones as originals for street cred.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Timwis (6/12/19)

Silver said:


> @Timwis, I know your thread was more about which clones are good versus not so good, but I dont have much experience with clones, so can't contribute on that front.
> 
> My main experience with clones was near the beginning of my vaping when I got a Kayfun 3.1 clone, (not sure what clone manufacturer) and no matter what I did it leaked. I tried so many ways to get it working - checked Youtube vids, asked many people etc. But it just didnt work and leaked so badly - once it dumped 5Pawns Bowdens Mate in my car seat and it took ages to get that smell out. Since then I did not like Kayfuns at all. I thought they were just badly designed devices.
> 
> ...


That is one perfectly good argument but the other side is they are way too expensive when i see no real innovation the laugh is even the new high end products these days copy ideas. Some clones are good and could give a vaper a good insight into the atty's before trying to save and buy the original!
I personally have a couple of higher end atty's and can tell the difference in materials and machining to most Chinese mass marketed atty's but this thread was meant as a general guide to the better clones because i understand vapers with stretched incomes and families have tight budgets and i personally have nothing against people buying clones i have just a couple myself. And the fact although a bad experience you bought a Kayfun 3.1 Clone having a anti clones view seems hypocritical. If that Kayfun had turned out to be a good clone you might have a army of clones by now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Rob Fisher (6/12/19)

Ooooo so tempted to dive into the discussion... but thought better of it...


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (6/12/19)

Timwis said:


> But just because you did doesn't mean others can, they start to save and then the kids need new shoes, start to save again and the vacuum cleaner goes up the spout.


I dont see how money can be a big factor. One of my riches clients vape a pico and some cheap pod. This guy pays me to change his light bulbs, he can afford the most expensive mods and would not even think twice about it. For him and most other people a vape is just a tool.
I didnt buy a Skyfall to look great, everybody rated it a good vape so got the clone. Will I pay 2-3k for an authentic? No ways. R150 wasp nano is just as good, just like the Skyfall's 510 driptip more. Sure I can get many cheap authentic rda's that is just as good as the Authentic Skyfall.
I dont go out to buy a clone specificly, I just buy whatever I feel, and so should everyone. Whether its cheap chinese stuff, clones or HE. Its your money, you can do what you want with it. I do however have a problem with people that diss others choices.
As for street cred, being classy, people looking up to you etc for what type of vape you have? Reminds me of a friend in school that always told us of some car he is going to buy after school and how many chicks he is going to get then. Well after a years hard work he bought his car and a few years later he still didnt have a girlfriend.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Jengz (6/12/19)

Timwis said:


> That is one perfectly good argument but the other side is they are way too expensive when i see no real innovation the laugh is even the new high end products these days copy ideas. Some clones are good and could give a vaper a good insight into the atty's before trying to save and buy the original!
> I personally have a couple of higher end atty's and can tell the difference in materials and machining to most Chinese mass marketed atty's but this thread was meant as a general guide to the better clones because i understand vapers with stretched incomes and families have tight budgets and i personally have nothing against people buying clones i have just a couple myself. And the fact although a bad experience you bought a Kayfun 3.1 Clone having a anti clones view seems hypocritical. If that Kayfun had turned out to be a good clone you might have a army of clones by now.


I don't understand you bud... I get the point of your discussion, but to allow for open discussion and then constantly tell people they are talking crap or that they are hypocritical doesn't make sense. Yes you're entitled to your opinion but the more replies of yours I read, the more I keep seeing the kid in school who asks for opinions and then tells people off for providing them?

Just let people voice themselves and either say you don't agree if you don't or well said if you do and carry on, why is there a need to voice your thoughts on their opinion? Makes absolutely no sense and isn't even relevant to your discussion topic.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Timwis (6/12/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> I dont see how money can be a big factor. One of my riches clients vape a pico and some cheap pod. This guy pays me to change his light bulbs, he can afford the most expensive mods and would not even think twice about it. For him and most other people a vape is just a tool.
> I didnt buy a Skyfall to look great, everybody rated it a good vape so got the clone. Will I pay 2-3k for an authentic? No ways. R150 wasp nano is just as good, just like the Skyfall's 510 driptip more. Sure I can get many cheap authentic rda's that is just as good as the Authentic Skyfall.
> I dont go out to buy a clone specificly, I just buy whatever I feel, and so should everyone. Whether its cheap chinese stuff, clones or HE. Its your money, you can do what you want with it. I do however have a problem with people that diss others choices.
> As for street cred, being classy, people looking up to you etc for what type of vape you have? Reminds me of a friend in school that always told us of some car he is going to buy after school and how many chicks he is going to get then. Well after a years hard work he bought his car and a few years later he still didnt have a girlfriend.


I agree, it was someone else who brought up street cred!

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Timwis (6/12/19)

Jengz said:


> I don't understand you bud... I get the point of your discussion, but to allow for open discussion and then constantly tell people they are talking crap or that they are hypocritical doesn't make sense. Yes you're entitled to your opinion but the more replies of yours I read, the more I keep seeing the kid in school who asks for opinions and then tells people off for providing them?
> 
> Just let people voice themselves and either say you don't agree if you don't or well said if you do and carry on, why is there a need to voice your thoughts on their opinion? Makes absolutely no sense and isn't even relevant to your discussion topic.


I don't understand you either it has been a thread of open discussion read the whole thread, just one comment i referred to as crap because people don't buy clones to make out they have the original and i found the comment demeaning to those that have a clone or clones saying they had no pride etc.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Puff the Magic Dragon (7/12/19)

Timwis said:


> i found the comment demeaning to those that have a clone or clones saying they had no pride etc.



I couldn't agree with you more @Timwis .

To say that possibly the majority of forum members (who have bought clones) have no pride in themselves is insulting beyond an acceptable level. This forum has always been a place where people can express their opinions without fear of attack or insult. Perhaps the only exception is when the clone issue is raised. 

The only people looking for street cred are youngsters. I pity any adult who is so insecure in their own self-worth that they desperately seek street cred.



Take a look here https://www.vaporvanity.com/is-it-possible-to-be-a-vaping-connoisseur-and-should-you-try-to-be-one/

This post requires no reply. It was motivated by being insulted by implication.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


----------



## ARYANTO (7/12/19)

Sorry I stepped on your toes , go and have yourself a good day and a cup of tea , Sir.


----------



## ARYANTO (7/12/19)



Reactions: Funny 4


----------



## Adephi (7/12/19)

This gif is so much better than a popcorn gif..

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Funny 4


----------



## Silver (7/12/19)

Timwis said:


> That is one perfectly good argument but the other side is they are way too expensive when i see no real innovation the laugh is even the new high end products these days copy ideas. Some clones are good and could give a vaper a good insight into the atty's before trying to save and buy the original!
> I personally have a couple of higher end atty's and can tell the difference in materials and machining to most Chinese mass marketed atty's but this thread was meant as a general guide to the better clones because i understand vapers with stretched incomes and families have tight budgets and i personally have nothing against people buying clones i have just a couple myself. And the fact although a bad experience you bought a Kayfun 3.1 Clone having a anti clones view seems hypocritical. If that Kayfun had turned out to be a good clone you might have a army of clones by now.



I hear you @Timwis
The only thing is when I bought that Kayfun clone I did not know it was a clone. Not that it was sold as an original but I didn’t know that clones were different to originals. It was very early on in my vaping and I was unaware of these things. I agree with you that I had bad luck with that Kayfun clone. It’s just that my experience turned me off the whole Kayfun brand for a long time and I didn’t know it was just perhaps a badly made clone. 

The views I have now are just my views over the years. Not saying anything about members that use clones there are plenty of those and I understand the reasons. Just that for me it’s not my thing.

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## vicTor (7/12/19)

*yawn*

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## antonherbst (7/12/19)

This forum exists out out of human decency to all vapers all over the world. And this picture could not have summed up the whole group that we are better in my opinion. Each to their own and have decency for vapers. Just like life styles everything is about what you can afford. If a vaper has a clone cause that is all he can afford i am happy he has found something that keeps him of the stinkies and the same goes for HE owners. 
As long as we vape have mutual respect for each other.

Reactions: Winner 7


----------



## Clouds4Days (7/12/19)

Vape what you like and like what you vape.
I had tons of clones, non anymore and sticking to authethentics from now on. It's my decision it's my money it's my life.

No one needs a explanation it's my choice.

You get quality Clones and crap clones, quality Authentics and crap authentics.

End of day if I had a business selling a iteam I made and someone ripped it off I would be very pee'd off and I'm sure you would too if it was your bread and butter someone was ripping off.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (7/12/19)

Clouds4Days said:


> Vape what you like and like what you vape.
> I had tons of clones, non anymore and sticking to authethentics from now on. It's my decision it's my money it's my life.
> 
> No one needs a explanation it's my choice.
> ...


 I have never seen Coke, microsoft, VW, Intel, Samsung etc etc, being peed off for someone ripping off their products. Oooh I forgot, they patent and copyright everything. And if anyone try, they will end up in court. But hey lets rather cry like babies than do bussiness professional.


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (7/12/19)

antonherbst said:


> This forum exists out out of human decency to all vapers all over the world. And this picture could not have summed up the whole group that we are better in my opinion. Each to their own and have decency for vapers. Just like life styles everything is about what you can afford. If a vaper has a clone cause that is all he can afford i am happy he has found something that keeps him of the stinkies and the same goes for HE owners.
> As long as we vape have mutual respect for each other.
> 
> View attachment 184822


Here is the problem, by saying people that buy clones, is because thats only what they can afford, then you dont respect them, as most people who buy clones could probably afford an authentic.
Lets take the other side. If someone say that people buying HE gear only do it to compensate for their own insecureties, would that offend people with HE gear? Allthough that argument may be true for some HE gear users, it probably isnt for most.

Reactions: Like 1 | Can relate 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Clouds4Days (7/12/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> I have never seen Coke, microsoft, VW, Intel, Samsung etc etc, being peed off for someone ripping off their products. Oooh I forgot, they patent and copyright everything. And if anyone try, they will end up in court. But hey lets rather cry like babies than do bussiness professional.



All companies you mentioned are bid corporate companies and have funds to protect and fight legal battles if need be.

As said in my post , buy what you must it's your money and non of my business.

I will stand by my previous statement.
Cheers


----------



## klipdrifter (20/12/19)

So back on topic.

I just recently bought an authentic Taifun GTR (My 1st Authentic High End RTA) from Rob here on the forum after using a clone for quite a while.
I was lucky enough to be able to get this after it didn't suite Rob and he sold it at an ridiculous price to me.

Now, I never thought about buying authentic High End RTA's because it was way out of my budget.

So here is my take on the difference between Authentic and Clones after having both a clone and authentic of the same RTA.

The clone GTR is on par with flavour in regards to the Authentic but that is basically where it stops.
I can feel a weight difference between the clone and authentic (Authentic is heavier)

The clone has way more condensation taking place than the Authentic. I do believe this has something to do with the thicker stainless steel on the authentic?? Not sure.

The quality of the o-rings on the Authentic is way better than the clone's. (This made me realize that a lot of people that complain about their clones leaking might have to consider getting decent o-rings and I am not sure if local DIY shops and Vape shops stock these)

My clone did leak but is was a very small droplet like once very hour of chain vaping and I didn't though much of it until I got the authentic and have not seen a drop anywhere on my RTA yet.

I don't mind/judge people using clones because let face it, it is way too dam expensive to get the items here with import costs and conversion rates etc.

BUT

I have to admit, after experiencing an Authentic RTA I realized that clones should be used for experimental purposes and once you find the perfect RTA for you save up and get the real deal. However, clones don't fully expose the Authentic RTA's value for what it is because of the cheaper o-rings and materials it might leak etc where the authentic wont (This part also makes me scared as many people won't buy the authentic because they think its going to leak or whatever).

That is my 2cents ladies and gents

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## Daniel (20/12/19)

to me it's metallurgical....
to bring cost down the Chinese manufactures has to compromise somewhere...
now if you are vaping a cloned product at high wattages you are not sure what particles are being released with a cloned product do you?

the same can be said for HE products but there are strict guidelines to it... 

most mainstream Chinese made products have to confirm to certain standards so those products are deemed safe....

do you really think a company cloning products give a shyte about what you inhale into your lungs?

I'll just leave this here... and that's the reason I stopped buying clones...

Reactions: Can relate 1


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (20/12/19)

Daniel said:


> to me it's metallurgical....
> to bring cost down the Chinese manufactures has to compromise somewhere...
> now if you are vaping a cloned product at high wattages you are not sure what particles are being released with a cloned product do you?
> 
> ...


Any proof? Or just speculation?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Daniel (20/12/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Any proof? Or just speculation?


common sense really.... 

don't think anyone in China has really investigated the fact....

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (21/12/19)

Daniel said:


> common sense really....
> 
> don't think anyone in China has really investigated the fact....


I dont see the common sense. Same with the china mall juices that is supposed to have all the "bad stuff" in. Everyone say thats the case, but I havent seen any test or proof.
He gear is expensive because its a small market made by individuals, is there any proof that they use better materials?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Timwis (21/12/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> I dont see the common sense. Same with the china mall juices that is supposed to have all the "bad stuff" in. Everyone say thats the case, but I havent seen any test or proof.
> He gear is expensive because its a small market made by individuals, is there any proof that they use better materials?


I agree, not only the cloners state the same materials as the originals and if they were lying the proof would be out there (metals can easily be tested) instead of just assumption. Everyone will have there own experiences but i have the clone Taifun GTR by Shenray and like someone else in the thread my mate has the original (£16 Vs £139) and we after trying each others versions have agreed if they got mixed up we would have no way of knowing which was which by either look, feel or performance.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Puff the Magic Dragon (21/12/19)

@Timwis 
Just out of interest. Somewhere on the forum, it was said that the Taifun GTR authentic is heavier than the clone. Why don't you ask your mate to weigh his original RTA and compare it to your clone's weight?

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Timwis (21/12/19)

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> @Timwis
> Just out of interest. Somewhere on the forum, it was said that the Taifun GTR authentic is heavier than the clone. Why don't you ask your mate to weigh his original RTA and compare it to your clone's weight?


Good idea, i will get him to do that!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Rob Fisher (21/12/19)

The part people miss about this issue is the theft of intellectual property. I really feel for the modders who spend months and years designing a product only to be ripped off by the Cloners! Is that really fair?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (21/12/19)

© ® ™

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Adephi (21/12/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> © ® ™



You honestly think those 3 symbols mean anything in China?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (21/12/19)

Adephi said:


> You honestly think those 3 symbols mean anything in China?


Well what will the vape scene be like if we remove China from it? Complain with white bread under the arm?
As for intellectual property, I would like to see who made the first rda/rta as we know them and how much did all the HE manufacturers pay in royalties to that person for their copies of the 510, the posts, build decks, airflows etc?

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Silver (21/12/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Well what will the vape scene be like if we remove China from it? Complain with white bread under the arm?
> As for intellectual property, I would like to see who made the first rda/rta as we know them and how much did all the HE manufacturers pay in royalties to that person for their copies of the 510, the posts, build decks, airflows etc?



I hear you @Jean claude Vaaldamme and I can understand using ideas of other manufacturers especially if their product and idea is not patented. Eg airflow ideas etc. Might not be morally right according to some but it is what it is. If each manufacturer tries to improve a bit on each area all the time then in the end the customer gets a better product.

However, taking a product like a Svoemesto Kayfun (for example) and copying it identically 1:1 with the LOGO and NAME on the product and packaging is not cool in my view. The Kayfun might not have copyright protection but I would imagine the name and Svoemesto logo are registered trademarks. So using them to sell your product seems unfair to me.

Reactions: Agree 5


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (21/12/19)

Silver said:


> I hear you @Jean claude Vaaldamme and I can understand using ideas of other manufacturers especially if their product and idea is not patented. Eg airflow ideas etc. Might not be morally right according to some but it is what it is. If each manufacturer tries to improve a bit on each area all the time then in the end the customer gets a better product.
> 
> However, taking a product like a Svoemesto Kayfun (for example) and copying it identically 1:1 with the LOGO and NAME on the product and packaging is not cool in my view. The Kayfun might not have copyright protection but I would imagine the name and Svoemesto logo are registered trademarks. So using them to sell your product seems unfair to me.


I do understand, however cloning and copying of stuff is part of china and its not just the clone manufacturers, I almost want to say its part of their culture, the country does not stand up to it or condone it. So where does that leave the vape scene? I mean these Chinese vendors are at Vapecon? Why dont "we" stand against them and their country for all the cloning if we feel so strong about it? Even Sato vapes that probably sell the most 1:1 clones in SA was at Vapecon and yes I bought a 1:1 clone from them at Vapecon. So where was the outcry then?

As for the airflow etc. Im speaking more about the basic design. Lets take the 510 pin. Almost all attys look the same, same pin same insulation etc. Why do HE manufacturers dont come up with their own? Why do they copy it. If the first guy that made that design patented it, would the HE guys even exsist?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Silver (21/12/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> I do understand, however cloning and copying of stuff is part of china and its not just the clone manufacturers, I almost want to say its part of their culture, the country does not stand up to it or condone it. So where does that leave the vape scene? I mean these Chinese vendors are at Vapecon? Why dont "we" stand against them and their country for all the cloning if we feel so strong about it? Even Sato vapes that probably sell the most 1:1 clones in SA was at Vapecon and yes I bought a 1:1 clone from them at Vapecon. So where was the outcry then?
> 
> As for the airflow etc. Im speaking more about the basic design. Lets take the 510 pin. Almost all attys look the same, same pin same insulation etc. Why do HE manufacturers dont come up with their own? Why do they copy it. If the first guy that made that design patented it, would the HE guys even exsist?



I hear you @Jean claude Vaaldamme

However, allow me to just correct and comment on a few things:

Regarding Chinese vendors at VapeCon, there were 3 Chinese exhibitors that made the trip from China to be with us - Vaporesso, SMOK and Sigelei. None of them are clone manufacturers (ie making 1:1 clones of other products with brands and all). These companies have large R&D departments and to my best knowledge, they design and manufacture original products, many of which are very popular in SA.

There were no "clone manufacturers" from China exhibiting at VapeCon.

With regard to Sato Vape, that is a real pity that they were selling 1:1 clones. I personally had a long and detailed discussion with the owner of Sato Vape prior to their application and explained our view on clones. He appreciated the chat and saw our point of view - and respected it. He agreed to exhibit at VapeCon but not bring clones. It saddens me to hear they brought them. Thanks for the headsup. It is noted. We were not able to check every stand and product on offer.

Just know that we tried very hard on this initiative so when you say why dont "we" stand against them and their country(China) - our view is certainly not to distance ourselves from the whole of China if there are many great original manufacturers with products that are popular here. I assume you visited the Vaporesso stand and saw the effort they put in to their VapeCon presence? It was spectacular. That just shows how seriously they consider this market and we are honoured and privileged to host such a fine vaping vendor at the event.

With regard to your comment about the 510 pin and re-using it - I see your point and it does make for an interesting discussion. However my personal view is that using a common connector piece means any atty can fit on any mod. Open system. I suppose its like a USB connector in computers. I am not 100% sure of this but i dont think there is an original creator of the USB interface that all other manufacturers have to pay royalties to. And it helps for interoperability - so the customer wins at the end of the day.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


----------



## Timwis (21/12/19)

In any industry if products are not patented they are open to be copied, i would have issue with patented products being cloned and clones being sold as authentic.


Silver said:


> I hear you @Jean claude Vaaldamme
> 
> However, allow me to just correct and comment on a few things:
> 
> ...



The issue seems to be everybody moving the goalposts on what's acceptable and what's not to suit their own behaviour surely ripping off is ripping off!
Was it clarified that it was Voopoo that stole the RPM idea for the Vinci from Smok before Smok were invited and if so would Voopoo have been welcomed? i bet they would.
would Vandyvape have been welcomed? after all they blatantly stole the Profile Ceramic seat. Again i bet they would. These manufacturers may have large R&D departments but it seems most of their work is making sure they have copied things correctly!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Grand Guru (22/12/19)

I think clones would represent a real problem to the industry if the HE gear was sitting on the shelves while customers are rushing to buy clones. Which is far from being the case. We all know all the hassle you have to go through in order to put your hands on one of these, from closed/secret FB pages to exclusive lists etc. Are clones eating of their market shares? I highly doubt it! Would they be able/willing to increase their production and hence their sales? I also doubt it as they are what they are because of the scarcity effect and not necessarily because of the quality of their products (I’m not generalizing).
The more mainstream vape companies are ripping off each other’s ideas and I see no one pointing fingers at them.
I don’t think that anyone has to justify what he buys with his hard earned money. Should they inhale funny stuff while vaping on a clone is their own responsibility. Do we inhale some funny stuff on genuine products? Who is testing devices? Who is certifying the quality of used materials and the safety of those products? No one! Do I trust the CE symbol on all vape products? Absolutely not. China has its own set of standards (probably none). The truth is that the market ends up deciding who will survive and who will go bankrupt and there’s nothing more subjective than the market!

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 6


----------



## Humbolt (22/12/19)

I just ordered a clone QP Fatality M25 for R250 lol I can't afford the huge asking price and this suits my pocket.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


----------



## antonherbst (22/12/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Here is the problem, by saying people that buy clones, is because thats only what they can afford, then you dont respect them, as most people who buy clones could probably afford an authentic.
> Lets take the other side. If someone say that people buying HE gear only do it to compensate for their own insecureties, would that offend people with HE gear? Allthough that argument may be true for some HE gear users, it probably isnt for most.



Sorry i did not reply sooner as i dont follow your Posts in general.Just saw in a group you being blasted. About having negative feedback on most things people post here. Its okay to have you own opinion but to be "optimistic" about most of it makes you a person that not alot of the vapers here might like.

And yes that includes me.

If you buy a cloned car its not going to make me hate you more than if you buy an authentic. It is just going to show me that you can not afford the original and really like the autentic. But that does not mean the maker of the clone car did not infringe on inteletcual property. Regardless if its patented or not. It is stealing someone's idea. I recon you will not feel to happy if some chines company clones your wife to sell as a sex doll. Cause then all clients will crave your wive or girlfriend. While you have the original.

This might be deleted.

But this is how i feel about clones.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


----------



## Adephi (22/12/19)



Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## antonherbst (22/12/19)

Adephi said:


> View attachment 185683


I hope that is "brannas" Joda is drinking.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Adephi (22/12/19)

antonherbst said:


> I hope that is "brannas" Joda is drinking.


Baby Yoda! He's only 50 years old. Way too young for brannas.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Silver (22/12/19)

Guys let’s not fight about this

When the clone issue comes up the discussion often gets heated
Let’s remember not to get personal and play the ball not the man

It is a fascinating topic and we all have our views on it, which we need to listen to and respect - we can discuss this without getting heated with each other.

In any event, the thread was created by Timwis to discuss which clones are better than others, so we are veering off that topic...

Let’s get it back on track

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Winner 1


----------



## alex1501 (22/12/19)

antonherbst said:


> If you buy a cloned car its not going to make me hate you more than if you buy an authentic. It is just going to show me that you can not afford the original and really like the autentic. But that does not mean the maker of the clone car did not infringe on inteletcual property. Regardless if its patented or not. It is stealing someone's idea. I recon you will not feel to happy if some chines company clones your wife to sell as a sex doll. Cause then all clients will crave your wive or girlfriend. While you have the original.



Are you for real?



antonherbst said:


> But this is how i feel about clones.



Still have a clear memory of buying a "Narda" clone from you. Curious.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Informative 2


----------



## Humbolt (22/12/19)

If someone made a sex doll out of me, I'd be flattered! 
Heck I'd even purchase one and have my way with myself!

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 7


----------



## Timwis (22/12/19)

Humbolt said:


> If someone made a sex doll out of me, I'd be flattered!
> Heck I'd even purchase one and have my way with myself!


Brings a whole new meaning to abusing one's self!!!!

Reactions: Funny 7


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (23/12/19)

Sorry I took so long to respond, but seeing that you decided to attack me personally I left it to see if admin deleted your post. But seeing that they left it, Im sure they will give me the same courtesy and not delete mine Except if they buddy buddy with you and there is different rules for different forumites

QUOTE="antonherbst, post: 822249, member: 8473"]
Sorry i did not reply sooner as i dont follow your Posts in general.
*What you wanted to say is: Sorry I first needed support from my fake internet friends to gain courage and it them took me a week to come up with a lame reply.*
Just saw in a group you being blasted. 
*Lol blasted? One cannot get blasted on a closed group of friends if the "blasted" is not there to participate. When the "blasted" is there to state the other side of the story you and your fake internet friends will run tail between the legs like what happened before and you will ask admins to delete(like before)*

About having negative feedback on most things people post here. Its okay to have you own opinion but to be "optimistic" about most of it makes you a person that not alot of the vapers here might like.

And yes that includes me.
*Oooh thats a real loss, Im going to cry for a week. I so wanted to be popular on the internet so I could show my fake internet friends that I got 2.37 gazillions likes.*
*Like you say, Im entitled to my opinions. I do however give them inside the rules and dont attack people personally. But your lack of IQ obviously shows and you had to revert to kindergarden warfare and throw sticks and stones. But hey, Im sure your fake internet friends on your whatsapp group think you won the argument, well done*

If you buy a cloned car its not going to make me hate you more than if you buy an authentic. It is just going to show me that you can not afford the original and really like the autentic. But that does not mean the maker of the clone car did not infringe on inteletcual property. Regardless if its patented or not. It is stealing someone's idea. I recon you will not feel to happy if some chines company clones your wife to sell as a sex doll. Cause then all clients will crave your wive or girlfriend. While you have the original.
*Nothing with any real substance to respond to. Howerver you keep going to the cant afford HE gear. Now surely anyone who read the classifieds will know that there is plenty HE gear selling for less than 2k, that includes fancy stabwood mods and even your preffered Limelight glooms. So genius can you lease explain to us how a normal vaper that buy a normal mod like a Vaporesso Gen, a Topside dual, etc etc cannot afford HE gear? Its in the same ballpark? Your average guy that pays 8k for a tv or 10k for a pc, surely can afford to buy HE gear if he/she thought it worth it?*

This might be deleted.
*Yes lets see the "ethics"*

But this is how i feel about clones.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Silver (23/12/19)

What’s been said has been said

So please let’s move on now

If there are more posts of personal nature and more fighting then we will have to lock the thread.


----------



## Timwis (23/12/19)

2 Days till Santa


----------



## Timwis (23/12/19)

Back on topic i hear a lot of reports that Kayfun clones tend to disappoint while Doggystyle clones tend to be very good.


----------



## Kuhlkatz (23/12/19)

Timwis said:


> 2 Days till Santa



Be weary of requests made to the Santas you see in shopping malls... they are clones and don't deliver on promises they make

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 6


----------



## Timwis (23/12/19)

Kuhlkatz said:


> Be weary of requests made to the Santas you see in shopping malls... they are clones and don't deliver on promises they make


I was going to add about most Santa's being clones but then realised their was no original in the first place to clone, i don't mind as it's me that will be having Santa's glass of whiskey and mince pie Christmas Eve!

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## X-Calibre786 (23/12/19)

Silver said:


> With regard to your comment about the 510 pin and re-using it - I see your point and it does make for an interesting discussion. However my personal view is that using a common connector piece means any atty can fit on any mod. Open system. I suppose its like a USB connector in computers. I am not 100% sure of this but i dont think there is an original creator of the USB interface that all other manufacturers have to pay royalties to. And it helps for interoperability - so the customer wins at the end of the day.



Way off-topic, I know, but cellphone companies were kinda "told" to standardise their chargers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply

"In 2009, a European Commission initiative resulted in the specification of a *common external power supply* (*common EPS*) for use with data-enabled mobile phones sold in the European Union."

Reactions: Informative 2


----------



## Timwis (23/12/19)

Rob Fisher said:


> The part people miss about this issue is the theft of intellectual property. I really feel for the modders who spend months and years designing a product only to be ripped off by the Cloners! Is that really fair?


The thing is if you are consistent! The coil cutting guide was invented by an English Bloke and within a couple of weeks versions were being included free with RDA's and RTA's from China and i notice you just bought a more fancy version, what about the theft of his intellectual property, i see no difference!

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (23/12/19)

Something bothers me since last night. Will the clone doll of my wife also have a headache?

Reactions: Funny 7


----------



## Rob Fisher (23/12/19)

Timwis said:


> The thing is if you are consistent! The coil cutting guide was invented by an English Bloke and within a couple of weeks versions were being included free with RDA's and RTA's from China and i notice you just bought a more fancy version, what about the theft of his intellectual property, i see no difference!



Agreed. Thanks for the reminder of the initial inventer... I will toss this one into the gorge.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Timwis (23/12/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Something bothers me since last night. Will the clone doll of my wife also have a headache?


Only on days that have an "a" in it!

Reactions: Funny 4


----------



## alex1501 (23/12/19)

Timwis said:


> Back on topic i hear a lot of reports that Kayfun clones tend to disappoint while Doggystyle clones tend to be very good.



I have two Kayfun 5 clones, one from the forum classifieds and one from Vapecon 2017. Not even made by the same company, yet identical, very heavy and all of the parts are fully interchangeable. Never had any problems with them and they are still in daily use for my tobacco mixes.
1st one is made by SXK and the 2nd one by Tobeco (so I was told).

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## alex1501 (23/12/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Something bothers me since last night. Will the clone doll of my wife also have a headache?



I assume that the answer on the particular question will highly depend on the level of the clone's sophistication.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Timwis (23/12/19)

alex1501 said:


> I assume that the answer on the particular question will highly depend on the level of the clone's sophistication.


Genuinely a scientific study (apparently) conducted a few years back findings were the less intelligent women were the more they thought about sex so the best outcome is to have a wife of average intelligence and be grateful for what you get because the two ends of the scales were sex was only on offer as manipulation if your wife wants something or you got plenty but your wife is as daft as a brush! Not made up it was a genuine study!

Reactions: Informative 2


----------



## Timwis (23/12/19)

alex1501 said:


> I have two Kayfun 5 clones, one from the forum classifieds and one from Vapecon 2017. Not even made by the same company, yet identical, very heavy and all of the parts are fully interchangeable. Never had any problems with them and they are still in daily use for my tobacco mixes.
> 1st one is made by SXK and the 2nd one by Tobeco (so I was told).


Haven't heard of Tobeco since i bought the Supertank which housed aspire Nautilus coils but yes they were big cloners back in the day when Ehpro and Wotofo were also mainly known for clones!


----------



## fbb1964 (30/7/20)

My 2 cents. If I had to use smok coils only lots of gear would have been thrown out ages ago. What utter rubbish. Instead better than the original clones saved it for me and I'm happy as. Awesome to be exact. Would I now bash smok? No they probably outsourced coil manufacturing and hit a lemon. I've bought one or two clone cheap as chips mod kits and never again. Crap and it shows. I've only used wismec, eleaf, smok and now to be vaporesso. I'm old school ok I'm not competing with anybody for anything. If it works don't fix or change it. Not yet at the stage to diy coils and that suits me. For now. Some clones are 100% more superior than originals I've learnt that lesson hard way. But only the better clones and reviews and sales show that to me. It's not just to save $s if original is crap that's just what it is. As long as it's interchangeable it's all great no worries.


----------



## Timwis (30/7/20)

fbb1964 said:


> My 2 cents. If I had to use smok coils only lots of gear would have been thrown out ages ago. What utter rubbish. Instead better than the original clones saved it for me and I'm happy as. Awesome to be exact. Would I now bash smok? No they probably outsourced coil manufacturing and hit a lemon. I've bought one or two clone cheap as chips mods and never again. Crap and it shows. I've only used wismec, smok and now to be vaporesso. I'm old school ok I'm not competing with anybody for anything. If it works don't fix or change it. Not yet at the stage to diy coils and that suits me. For now. Some clones are 100% superior than originals I've learnt that lesson hard way. But only the better clones and reviews and sales show that to me. It's not just to save $s if original is crap that's just what it is. As long as it's interchangeable it's all great no worries.


Off topic i know but didn't the Welsh Wizard play rugby for Newcastle when he played all year round?


----------



## fbb1964 (30/7/20)

Timwis said:


> Off topic i know but didn't the Welsh Wizard play rugby for Newcastle when he played all year round?


Mate sorry I don't know moved up to Newcastle 3 years ago from central coast where I lived 17 years. Still getting to know the joint. Rugby in au is such a huge mess now let's not get started on it it's brewing on civil war here. Far left social justice have crept in just like everywhere else.


----------



## fbb1964 (30/7/20)

Is this the dude your talking about? Looks like a frikken legend.. Good on him! Looks like a great player

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Davies_(rugby,_born_1962)


----------



## Timwis (30/7/20)

fbb1964 said:


> Mate sorry I don't know moved up to Newcastle 3 years ago from central coast where I lived 17 years. Still getting to know the joint. Rugby in au is such a huge mess now let's not get started on it it's brewing on civil war here. Far left social justice have crept in just like everywhere else.


Yeah Jonothan Davies one of Wales Rugby Union legends switched codes in his later years and played over here but when our season finished played for Newcastle in Australia. So what's up over there? not win the world cup for a while and it's politics rather than accepting South Africa, New Zealand and God forbid England are just much better than you at the present time, lol!


----------



## fbb1964 (30/7/20)

If only that was the problem. Win a rwc again, who knows? the management of both league and union in their infinite wisdom decided to jump on the extreme far left social justice bandwagon and the supporters aren't happy. Tinkering to blow up! No spectators empty stadiums no money. Simple fix. Much better we don't derail thread here  with the proverbial sh@@t hitting the fan in SA rugby recently. Not advised to discuss any more, it's touchy. Note to myself.. Breath in breath out and count to 10. And don't say another word! Church, politics and rugby nogo ever!!!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## ARYANTO (30/7/20)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Something bothers me since last night. Will the clone doll of my wife also have a headache?


Dangerous waters ...

Reactions: Funny 4


----------



## Stranger (30/7/20)

If you google clone doll, you get this. freaking scary man

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


----------

