# High Nic - Why not sub-ohm?



## Hooked

Why is it said that high nic juice (by high nic I mean 10mg and up) should not be sub-ohmed? It's only now with the nic salts juice that's coming on the market that the warning is there - not for sub-ohm use. That warning was never there for "ordinary" high nic juice. I've been vaping "ordinary" 18mg juice with a 0.6 omh coil. Why should I not do so? There's no point in being told not to do so, without an explanation of why not.

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## Greyz

Hooked said:


> Why is it said that high nic juice (by high nic I mean 10mg and up) should not be sub-ohmed? It's only now with the nic salts juice that's coming on the market that the warning is there - not for sub-ohm use. That warning was never there for "ordinary" high nic juice. I've been vaping "ordinary" 18mg juice with a 0.6 omh coil. Why should I not do so? There's no point in being told not to do so, without an explanation of why not.



That warning is intended for those on Nic Salts @Hooked - from what I gather vaping Nic salts at high wattages releases undesirables (or something like that - I'm open to correction)
Your standard nic does not pose this risk.

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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

Greyz said:


> That warning is intended for those on Nic Salts @Hooked - from what I gather vaping Nic salts at high wattages releases undesirables (or something like that - I'm open to correction)
> Your standard nic does not pose this risk.


That's what I read too on this thread 
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/salt-nic-and-diy.t46068/

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## Petrus

Well, as we speak I am busy vaping 12mg on a .12ohm coil in my Juggernaut tank. I must say the "kick" is good. I have not vape "salts" and don't presume I will, I am quite happy with my 12mg mixes.

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## Halfdaft

Sub-ohming high nic/nic salts is dangerous because of the amount of nic. To put it simply, lower ohms mean bigger clouds, bigger clouds mean more nic intake, and when the amount of nic in the juice is substantially higher than normal juice (3mg freebase vs. 30mg salt) it can become dangerous. Your body also absorbs salt nic more efficiently than freebase nic, so there is a higher percentage of nic in your body when vaping it.

The health risk from a nic overdose usually isn't too bad, headaches, nausea and profuse sweating (as I'm sure @Silver can attest to) but when you go way over the limit it can lead to seizures and unconsciousness.

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## Rafique

Petrus said:


> Well, as we speak I am busy vaping 12mg on a .12ohm coil in my Juggernaut tank. I must say the "kick" is good. I have not vape "salts" and don't presume I will, I am quite happy with my 12mg mixes.



My word 12mg on a 0.12 thats hectic. forget kicking like a mule, that must kick like a Rhino

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## stevie g

@Hooked probably because most people cannot take the intense pain that 18mg freebase nicotine has on a high wattage lung hit, it's self limiting in a way.

Only a small percentage of people can tolerate high nic @sub ohm levels.
That's why 3mg remains the highest selling category of eliquids.

Nic salts at low ohms leads to jelly legs, well for me anyway.

I have an issue with sub ohm as a descriptor as it is used by the community at large. Most regulated mods can fire sub ohm at very low wattages. Sub ohm seems to be a throw back to mech mods.
It's not like you can't run a sub ohm coil at 10 watts.

This is not directed at you, rather a general observation of how sub ohm is misunderstood by vapers.

I notice I'm as indoctrinated as the next vaper as I just used sub ohm in place of high wattage several times in this reply .

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## ivc_mixer

High level nicotine, from freebase nicotine, is safe to use. You do take in more nic than usual but if you consider, cigarettes actually have more nicotine per cigarette than the average 3mg or 6mg juice. I would not try a 24mg or such juice in a sub-ohm tank due to too much nic intake but otherwise you should be safe using freebase nicotine.

Nicotine salts however have a different chemical compound - note I am typing from what I recall reading, no scientist/bioligist myself, dropped those things in Grade 9 - and it comes down to the way the nicotine salts break down into vapour that has the undesireable effects at sub-ohm levels. 

After some quick research, to quote @zandernwn from another post "One of the compounds used to create salt nics are benzoate acid.. Uses at low tempratures this is fine but at sub ohm levels can release benzine and that would not be good for you. Other acids used may also break down into harmfull side effects at heats exceeding 200c."

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## Hooked

stevie g said:


> @Hooked probably because most people cannot take the intense pain that 18mg freebase nicotine has on a high wattage lung hit, it's self limiting in a way.
> 
> Only a small percentage of people can tolerate high nic @sub ohm levels.
> That's why 3mg remains the highest selling category of eliquids.
> 
> Nic salts at low ohms leads to jelly legs, well for me anyway.
> 
> I have an issue with sub ohm as a descriptor as it is used by the community at large. Most regulated mods can fire sub ohm at very low wattages. Sub ohm seems to be a throw back to mech mods.
> It's not like you can't run a sub ohm coil at 10 watts.
> 
> This is not directed at you, rather a general observation of how sub ohm is misunderstood by vapers.
> 
> I notice I'm as indoctrinated as the next vaper as I just used sub ohm in place of high wattage several times in this reply .



@stevie g Would you answering a few questions as I'm still learning (I guess I always will be!)

What do you mean by "I just used sub ohm in place of high wattage several times in this reply". 

Firstly, define "high"? I usually vape at 20 - 30W, using commercial coils of max 0.6ohm. 

Secondly, is high wattage always used with sub-ohm?

Thirdly, is low wattage always used with 1.0 ohm or higher? I'll be getting the new Twisp Arcus tank soon and I believe that the coils are 1.8ohm. Must I then use a low wattage with it?


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## Alex

The use of the term "sub-ohm" as @stevie g noted so eloquently, was originally coined in the days when mechanical mods were the only way to achieve higher wattages in vaping.

This was achieved by lowering the resistance of the coil, which in turn increases the electric current. At the time, 1.5 ohm and above was the norm. And the average power available from "electronic" mods was around 7-12W. So building a coil with a resistance as low as possible, allowed mech devices to achieve power that was only limited by the battery voltage. The sky was the limit. 

"Wattage" is a far more accurate term than "sub-ohm".

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## RichJB

ivc_mixer said:


> Other acids used may also break down into harmfull side effects at heats exceeding 200c.



Although, as has been noted in other discussions, heat is not purely a function of wattage. It would be for a reference coil. If you run 100W through a coil, it will obviously be hotter than running 30W through that same coil in the same setup. But running 100W through one setup and 30W through another becomes meaningless until we know what type of coils are in each setup, along with other factors like airflow dynamics, the duration of the puff, interval between puffs, etc.

In the infamous formaldehyde study in which researchers induced cotton-scorching dry hit conditions to boost the formaldehyde levels in the vapour, they were using a cigalike iirc. It is more than possible to produce scorchingly hot temps in super-ohm gear.

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## stevie g

Hooked said:


> @stevie g Would you answering a few questions as I'm still learning (I guess I always will be!)
> 
> What do you mean by "I just used sub ohm in place of high wattage several times in this reply".
> 
> Firstly, define "high"? I usually vape at 20 - 30W, using commercial coils of max 0.6ohm.
> 
> Secondly, is high wattage always used with sub-ohm?
> 
> Thirdly, is low wattage always used with 1.0 ohm or higher? I'll be getting the new Twisp Arcus tank soon and I believe that the coils are 1.8ohm. Must I then use a low wattage with it?


Hi Hooked

Most people mean high wattage when they say sub ohm.
Defining high would be the temperature of the vapor as it emits from the mouth piece - highly subjective per user. I like it cool to warm while I know guys that like it scorching hot.
Coil ohms is not an indication of the wattage it should be run at. It would probably be more useful if they gave you a wattage range that the coil performs optimally at rather than telling you the ohms.
You could deduce the material the coil is made out of based on the ohms and physical dimensions of the coil but it is rather redundant.
Start low and increase wattage until you find the sweet spot, which you already know.

You would be fine ignoring the ohms rating as a guide to what wattage you need to use and just go on how the vape feels to you.

The Twisp Arcus coil is probably using a very thin wire (30 - 28 gauge) to achieve high ohms, these are vulnerable to high watts as the thin wire scorches much quicker than thicker wire so be conservative with your settings.

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## Timwis

@Hooked @stevie g hit the nail on the head to be pc they shouldn't really say not suitable for sub-ohm as it's actually wattage which is the issue, when i occasionally MTL i enjoy the 0.6 coil in the Vapefly Nicolas at just 18W. The higher the wattage the more juice you get through therefore the more nic you intake so a lower nic is needed to both satisfy your nicotine cravings and not to suffer symptoms of having too much nic such as headache, throat like sandpaper and a lighthead etc. Because Nic salts you absorb more of the nicotine it's just been brought more to the fore.

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## bjorncoetsee

Short answer, Nic Salts release Benzoic acid when vaped too warm. U dont want that in ur lungs. Nic salts is only used in pod or mtl devices. Where u vape at around 10 watts

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## Andre

The safe answer going forward, based on scientific research thus far, stay away from high heat/wattage - have your wattage as low as possible. For freebase nicotine I try not to go above 20W - tobaccos at 30W for now. Rather have higher nic than higher wattage. Many of the newer MTL devices coming out have low constant outputs - like the Joyetech Eco at 6.8W and the Innokin T20 at 13W - but then you need higher nic.

I hate the taste of nic salts and, thus, do not use it, but seems to me it would be wise to follow the suggestion by @bjorncoetsee and implied by others to stay around 10W for nic salts.

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## Hooked

Andre said:


> The safe answer going forward, based on scientific research thus far, stay away from high heat/wattage - have your wattage as low as possible. For freebase nicotine I try not to go above 20W - tobaccos at 30W for now. Rather have higher nic than higher wattage. Many of the newer MTL devices coming out have low constant outputs - like the Joyetech Eco at 6.8W and the Innokin T20 at 13W - but then you need higher nic.
> 
> I hate the taste of nic salts and, thus, do not use it, but seems to me it would be wise to follow the suggestion by @bjorncoetsee and implied by others to stay around 10W for nic salts.



@Andre Yes, I remember your telling me "high nic; low wattage". I've had my EGO AIO ECOs standing upside down the whole day. I'll clean them out as discussed and try to use them tomorrow. Hope it will be OK. If not, I'll try replacing the coils.

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## Hooked

To everyone who has so kindly replied to my question:

I am not concerned about nic overdose, simply because I stop vaping high nic as soon as I feel that it's too much - and I do feel it e.g. the start of a headache. Then I stop and switch back to a 3mg. I don't vape high nic all the time - I just need it for a turbo charge and to satisfy an absolute craving which I get sometimes. All that I need to know is *HOW to vape high nic and nic salts.*

My understanding then is:
1) "ordinary" high nic juice can be vaped with ANY ohm and ANY wattage - whatever is most comfortable for me, but the lower the wattage the better.
2) The crucial factor with nic salts is that the wattage MUST be low e.g. 10W or less, so as to prevent the release of Benzoic acid.

*Am I understanding this correctly?*

btw the only experience I've had with nic salts has been in the Aspire Gusto Mini pods, which are 20mg nic salts. I LOVE them! I see now that quite a few different nic salts juices have suddenly come on to the market and I'm ordering as many different ones as possible, so as to find the best one for me - and a cheaper alternative (if it works out that way) to the Gusto pods.

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## Silver

Hi @Hooked

I think this is a great thread and have enjoyed reading the responses and explanations

My observation from my own experience is that I cannot vape 18mg ordinary juice at higher wattage in direct lung mode. For that I have to go lower on the nic, say down to about 9mg. Or even 6mg.

But for mouth to lung vaping I find 9mg too low to get a satisfactory throat hit while vaping, so i prefer 18mg for that. MTL gives me a different throat hit to direct lung. Its sharper and like a short punch, instead of a longer term cumulative "rubbing".

In general I do most of my vaping at lowish wattage (25W and below) and adjust the nic level to suit the mode of vaping. I agree with @Andre in trying to keep the power on the lower side if possible.

That said, it does depend quite a lot on the coil, so as @RichJB pointed out, a simple thin wire 1.8 ohm coil at 20W is likely going to get much hotter than an exotic heavier mass alien coil at say 40W. i think the general idea (for me at least) is to keep the power (and therefore resulting temp) as low as possible while still satisfying you and adjust nic level up if needed.

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## Hooked

Silver said:


> Hi @Hooked
> 
> I think this is a great thread and have enjoyed reading the responses and explanations
> 
> My observation from my own experience is that I cannot vape 18mg ordinary juice at higher wattage in direct lung mode. For that I have to go lower on the nic, say down to about 9mg. Or even 6mg.
> 
> But for mouth to lung vaping I find 9mg too low to get a satisfactory throat hit while vaping, so i prefer 18mg for that. MTL gives me a different throat hit to direct lung. Its sharper and like a short punch, instead of a longer term cumulative "rubbing".
> 
> In general I do most of my vaping at lowish wattage (25W and below) and adjust the nic level to suit the mode of vaping. I agree with @Andre in trying to keep the power on the lower side if possible.
> 
> That said, it does depend quite a lot on the coil, so as @RichJB pointed out, a simple thin wire 1.8 ohm coil at 20W is likely going to get much hotter than an exotic heavier mass alien coil at say 40W. i think the general idea (for me at least) is to keep the power (and therefore resulting temp) as low as possible while still satisfying you and adjust nic level up if needed.



@Silver You won't believe this, but I still don't know whether I do MTL or DL! I'm waiting for someone who has X-ray vision to tell me what I'm doing - I think I might have a long wait.


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## RenaldoRheeder

Hooked said:


> @Silver You won't believe this, but I still don't know whether I do MTL or DL! I'm waiting for someone who has X-ray vision to tell me what I'm doing - I think I might have a long wait.



@Hooked - don't worry - you are not alone. I did ask an experienced vaper the same question about my vaping, and the verdict was that I do something that fits in midway between the two. So the only conclusion was that I am a bastard vaper OR vaper bastard - I can't remember now 


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## RichJB

Hooked said:


> You won't believe this, but I still don't know whether I do MTL or DL!



MTL is a three-stage puff, DL is a two-stage puff. In MTL, your primary inhale draws the vapour from the device into your mouth. Your secondary inhale draws the vapour from your mouth into your lungs. The third stage is the exhale.

In DL, your primary inhale draws the vapour direct from the device into your lungs. The second stage is the exhale.

The easiest test is this: could you take a drag and blow it out without the vapour ever going into your lungs? If so, you MTL.

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## Hooked

RichJB said:


> MTL is a three-stage puff, DL is a two-stage puff. In MTL, your primary inhale draws the vapour from the device into your mouth. Your secondary inhale draws the vapour from your mouth into your lungs. The third stage is the exhale.
> 
> In DL, your primary inhale draws the vapour direct from the device into your lungs. The second stage is the exhale.
> 
> The easiest test is this: could you take a drag and blow it out without the vapour ever going into your lungs? If so, you MTL.



@RichJB This is the most descriptive explanation which I have read! Thank you!! Yes, I can take a drag and blow it out without the vapour going into my lungs and sometimes I do this, but usually I do the three stages which you mentioned at the beginning of the post. Ah! Now I have an identity - I'm an MTL vaper! How about that! May I apply for an I.D. card? 

However, when I vape cig-a-likes, which I often do, I draw the vapour immediately into my lungs, just as if I were smoking - and quite honestly, I enjoy that a lot. So maybe I'm a closet DL? 

Question: Why are certain devices advertised as MTL devices? What makes an MTL device different from a DL device? All my devices are, I assume, MTL. They're all Eleaf: iJust S (unregulated); Pico 25 and 75 and the Basal.

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## Hooked

RenaldoRheeder said:


> @Hooked - don't worry - you are not alone. I did ask an experienced vaper the same question about my vaping, and the verdict was that I do something that fits in midway between the two. So the only conclusion was that I am a bastard vaper OR vaper bastard - I can't remember now
> 
> 
> Sent by iDad's iPhone



I'm laughing not only at your last sentence, but at "I did ask an experienced vaper ..." - as if you're not experienced! You're far too humble!

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## RichJB

Hooked said:


> Why are certain devices advertised as MTL devices? What makes an MTL device different from a DL device?



It's the tightness of the draw. If you open up the airflow slots on a DL atty, put it to your lips and block your nose, you can breathe quite normally through the drip it. The atty allows a lot of airflow through it. Now try putting an unlit cigarette to your lips, blocking your nose, and breathing in through the cigarette filter. You will very quickly run out of oxygen as you can't breathe in enough with each inhale to meet your needs. The tobacco and the filter are packed too tightly to allow unrestricted airflow.

MTL tanks are designed to replicate that tight, restricted draw of a cigarette. So their airflow slots are much smaller/narrower than a DL atty and the drip tip will usually be narrower too. The idea is to give you a tight draw with not much airflow, similar to a cigarette. This is also why many beginner vapers prefer MTL, it is closer to the sensation of smoking a cigarette so they are accustomed to it. It feels 'weird' to transition straight from smoking to DL as it's a different inhale sensation.

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## Hami

bjorncoetsee said:


> Short answer, Nic Salts release Benzoic acid when vaped too warm. U dont want that in ur lungs. Nic salts is only used in pod or mtl devices. Where u vape at around 10 watts


Hey

I have not been able to find any reputable sources which state nic salts are unsuitable for sub ohm vaping.
To my knowledge benzoic acid is added to freebase nicotine to create nicotine salts.
Other acids can be used in it's place. Some companies use different acids or multiple acids for their formulations.
This study shows that air contains more benzene than that created from ecigs with benzoic acid.

http://ecigarette-research.org/research/index.php/whats-new/2017/252-benz

I think the risk of high levels of benzene or other chemicals being released are applicable when sub ohming high levels of nic salts. E.g. 50mg.
I have found no research which tests 3 or 6mg nic salts at sub ohm levels extensively.

Most articles I come across these days advice not to sub ohm high mg nic salts due to the possibility of nicotine overdose. But say that sub ohming low mg nic salts is fine. They also claim the health risk is the same as sub ohming regular freebase nic. Here is one example.

https://vapingdaily.com/what-is-vaping/nicotine-salts/

I have been exclusively vaping using nicotine salts for the past 6 months. I use low quantities (3/6mg) in sub ohm devices and high quantities (24mg upwards) in mtl devices. I have not seen any adverse effects to my health in this time period and can say that it has elevated my vaping experience! 



Sent from my SM-G928C using Tapatalk

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## Silver

Lovely posts @RichJB 
Very well explained

@Hooked, so you are a MTL and closet DL vaper - lol

Just FYI, i was a MTL vaper for about the first year and did not like DL at all - made me cough. In retrospect it was probably because the juice was too strong, haha.

Anyhow, nowadays I am about 50/50 MTL/DL. I still cant DL first thing in the morning. Its MTL only with coffee and usually a tobacco juice. I doubt i will ever transition to DL exclusively because i like the throat hit sensation i get from MTL. Its different to DL. I like that short sharp punch with a strong juice in MTL.

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## Alex

I began as a mtl Vaper @Hooked, because it was the only way to smoke a cigarette, well as far as I knew anyway.

Around six months later I began to experiment with direct lung hits, and found the experience to be very liberating. It seemed to open up another world of possibilities in terms of Flavour, devices, and the throat hit.

I like a short restricted direct inhale with 18mg, this seems to give excellent body to the flavour, and makes me feel at peace with the world

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## Hooked

RichJB said:


> It's the tightness of the draw. If you open up the airflow slots on a DL atty, put it to your lips and block your nose, you can breathe quite normally through the drip it. The atty allows a lot of airflow through it. Now try putting an unlit cigarette to your lips, blocking your nose, and breathing in through the cigarette filter. You will very quickly run out of oxygen as you can't breathe in enough with each inhale to meet your needs. The tobacco and the filter are packed too tightly to allow unrestricted airflow.
> 
> MTL tanks are designed to replicate that tight, restricted draw of a cigarette. So their airflow slots are much smaller/narrower than a DL atty and the drip tip will usually be narrower too. The idea is to give you a tight draw with not much airflow, similar to a cigarette. This is also why many beginner vapers prefer MTL, it is closer to the sensation of smoking a cigarette so they are accustomed to it. It feels 'weird' to transition straight from smoking to DL as it's a different inhale sensation.



@RichJB You are so good at explaining things. Are you a teacher? If not, you should be! And you should write articles for that Vaper Mag too! Thank you so much for taking the trouble to reply in detail to my questions - much appreciated!

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## Silver

Alex said:


> I began as a mtl Vaper @Hooked, because it was the only way to smoke a cigarette, well as far as I knew anyway.
> 
> Around six months later I began to experiment with direct lung hits, and found the experience to be very liberating. It seemed to open up another world of possibilities in terms of Flavour, devices, and the throat hit.
> 
> I like a short restricted direct inhale with 18mg, this seems to give excellent body to the flavour, and makes me feel at peace with the world



@Alex got me onto direct lung hits back in the day 
Love your style of vaping Alex and thanks for your influences back then!

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## Hooked

Alex said:


> I began as a mtl Vaper @Hooked, because it was the only way to smoke a cigarette, well as far as I knew anyway.
> 
> Around six months later I began to experiment with direct lung hits, and found the experience to be very liberating. It seemed to open up another world of possibilities in terms of Flavour, devices, and the throat hit.
> 
> I like a short restricted direct inhale with 18mg, this seems to give excellent body to the flavour, and makes me feel at peace with the world



@Alex Interesting! Perhaps at the vape meet that is going to be organised in Cape Town I'll meet someone who has a DL device and give it a try.


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## Hooked

Silver said:


> Lovely posts @RichJB
> Very well explained
> 
> @Hooked, so you are a MTL and closet DL vaper - lol
> 
> Just FYI, i was a MTL vaper for about the first year and did not like DL at all - made me cough. In retrospect it was probably because the juice was too strong, haha.
> 
> Anyhow, nowadays I am about 50/50 MTL/DL. I still cant DL first thing in the morning. Its MTL only with coffee and usually a tobacco juice. I doubt i will ever transition to DL exclusively because i like the throat hit sensation i get from MTL. Its different to DL. I like that short sharp punch with a strong juice in MTL.



@Silver I also like a good throat hit, which is one of the reasons why I enjoy the Gusto Mini nic salt pods so much. It will be interesting to see how the juices with nic salts are.


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## RenaldoRheeder

Hooked said:


> I'm laughing not only at your last sentence, but at "I did ask an experienced vaper ..." - as if you're not experienced! You're far too humble!



@Hooked - my one year vaping anniversary is only coming up on the 18th of this month. So by "age", I do not qualify 


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## RenaldoRheeder

@RichJB - great explanations mate  


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## Hooked

RenaldoRheeder said:


> @Hooked - my one year vaping anniversary is only coming up on the 18th of this month. So by "age", I do not qualify
> 
> 
> Sent by iDad's iPhone



@RenaldoRheeder Ah, but is experience measured in units of time, or units of knowledge?


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## zandernwn

so just a few corrections. releases benzine not benzoic acid - acid of benzoates is considered (Generally Regarded as Safe) GRAS. only certain nicotine salt formulations may result in the release of benzine. this is a secondary chemical reaction which may or may not take place at high heats depending on the presence of certain chemical environments. that's the short answer. so it may not alway result in the release of benzine.

In studies where the benzene levels in the e-cigarette aerosols were measured using gas chromatography/mass spectrometry, no benzene was detected in the JUUL-type system (particularly in the JUUL, one of the most popular nicotine salt pen vape systems @ 59mgml nicotine salt concentrations). Benzene formation was detected using higher watt devices (approx 5000 micrograms) whereas a traditional cigarette was found to release up to 40 times more (approx 200 000 micrograms of benzene). so the exposure to benzine is also vastly lower than in smoking.

but this is not the main reason for only using it in high-ohm, low watts setups.

Heat destroys the nicotine salts. so by vaping nicotine salts at high wattages th Nicotine salt unbinds and you end up pretty much vaping a nicotine with the same effect as a free base nicotine

So if you consider that the nicsalts are destroyed at high temps... then the benzine argument really becomes a moot point. 

Nic salts are strictly for use in high-ohm, low-watt setups. there are valid reasons for that. using nicsalts in a sub ohm device is like pouring petrol in a diesel motor.

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## RichJB

I think we also need to differentiate between benzene and benzine, which are not the same thing even if they are homophones.

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## zandernwn

you are absolutely right. in all references I have made is wrt Benzene


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## Stew

Good reading. Thanks all.


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