# Please help with steeping



## IamVaper7of9 (13/2/17)

HI. I am thinking of mixing my bases flavours first. Letting them steep on their own and then later mixing with Nic/VG/PG.
Does anyone have pointers on this or point me towards the correct thread if it has been dealt with.

Regards.

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## stevie g (13/2/17)

Go ahead and do it you will partially pre steep using this method.

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## zadiac (13/2/17)

Your steeping time will be twice as long then. The idea of steeping is so that the flavor can break down in the pg\vg and nicotine mix so that everything can blend together and cure. What you want to do will increase your steeping time to double. This is my opinion. I have done this before and could detect no difference between this method and mixing everything together and steeping it.

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## zadiac (13/2/17)

Sprint said:


> lol that's ridiculous.



Sorry for voicing my opinion. I will refrain from doing that in the future.

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## stevie g (13/2/17)

@Zodiac you're right I'm sorry for shooting you down like that. 

In example I premixed 2 litres of concentrate for a recipe, after 2 weeks it had fully developed in terms of final taste.

Each batch I made with that concentrate tasted like the final product would after a 2 weeks steep immediately, allowing for the harshness that freshly mixed liquid has. 

You had a different experience.

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## Silver (13/2/17)

Sprint said:


> lol that's ridiculous.



Whats ridiculous @Sprint ?
Care to explain?

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## stevie g (13/2/17)

Silver said:


> Whats ridiculous @Sprint ?
> Care to explain?


I thought I did in the above post.

Your steep time will be reduced as the Pre mixed concentrates with dissolve into each other. @IamVaper7of9 will be able to use his pre mix on consecutive recipes and achieve the final flavor faster keeping a bottle of premix than adding ingredients each time he makes the same recipe.

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## Andre (13/2/17)

In my experience you definitely reduce steeping time with pre-blends. See this thread for more:
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/mixing-with-pre-blended-concentrates.t29713/

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## Spydro (14/2/17)

It's more the flavors that need time to develop together than them with the base, with some specific flavors taking much longer than others. Also realize that some store bought flavor concentrates are just that... they are multiple ingredient concentrates combined. However, how long your premixed flavor concentrates will stay 100% viable is a variable that depends on what they contain and how they are stored. I learned from experience that with some of my premixes that they are best mixed in the exact quantity I'll need for a specific large batch size mixed with the base rather than a larger supply of them that can go bad before I get around to using them.

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## zandernwn (3/3/17)

I do not believe it speeds up steeping.

The entire mixture along with the base liquids needs to homogenize. If you introduce the base after steeping the flavors (pg vg) you are just decreasing the entropy in the liquid this means that all the ingredients need to mix up again and then homogenize from the top again.



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## Andre (3/3/17)

zandernwn said:


> I do not believe it speeds up steeping.
> 
> The entire mixture along with the base liquids needs to homogenize. If you introduce the base after steeping the flavors (pg vg) you are just decreasing the entropy in the liquid this means that all the ingredients need to mix up again and then homogenize from the top again.
> Sent from my HUAWEI CRR-L09 using Tapatalk


From my personal experience it certainly does reduce steeping time. The important molecular reaction is between the different flavours. Once that is done a good shake will get the flavour base properly mixed up in the carrier liquids (PG/VG), although I like to leave it for 24 hours to settle well.

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## Caveman (3/3/17)

zandernwn said:


> I do not believe it speeds up steeping.
> 
> The entire mixture along with the base liquids needs to homogenize. If you introduce the base after steeping the flavors (pg vg) you are just decreasing the entropy in the liquid this means that all the ingredients need to mix up again and then homogenize from the top again.
> 
> ...


It most definitely does. Have you tried it? If not, you should give it a shot. I have found that premixing concentrates gets them nice and mixed together, imagine you are making a 100% PG mix, that's pretty much what you are doing when premixing them. Then when you add VG, the flavors are already mixed, so it just needs to mix with the VG. As @Andre mentions, a good shake will get you close. I also leave mine for a day or 2 depending on the profile.

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## Caveman (3/3/17)

zadiac said:


> Sorry for voicing my opinion. I will refrain from doing that in the future.


You are forgiven, just please don't do it again

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## zandernwn (3/3/17)

I understand thay you percieve it to taste better and that it comes accross as seemely steeped faster. But the moment you I introduce more liquid into the mix you decrease the enthropy in the mix and that then puts you back to square one. Its not a matter of my opinion, it really is a function of physics.

I have tried many many different methods, this included. But any method that "expidites" the steeping process comes at a cost.

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## zandernwn (3/3/17)

I am really not trying to be a smart ass about all this. I am just trying to help give perspective on the topic and help the op with his question

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## Jebula999 (3/3/17)

I like to think of steeping a juice mixture the same as you would leave a curry to sit and get better over time.

You can mix all the spices, sauces and flavors together. The longer the curry sits and settles the more the flavors combine and merge into one, but when you add more cream/sauce to the mix the flavors don't separate into their own individual flavors again and have to "steep" into the final combined flavor again, it just weakens the flavor a bit till the cream absorbs the combined flavor already in the pot.

So i like to think the same applies to liquid, if you mix all flavor concentrates together, they will slowly form their own unique combined flavor, when you then finally add the PG or VG to the mix, you are merely diluting the flavor in the bottle, then waiting a day or two for the PG/VG to absorb the flavor of the concentrates. When you add nicotine, it then needs more time as the nicotine affects the flavor and changes it even more.

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## Andre (3/3/17)

zandernwn said:


> I understand thay you percieve it to taste better and that it comes accross as seemely steeped faster. But the moment you I introduce more liquid into the mix you decrease the enthropy in the mix and that then puts you back to square one. Its not a matter of my opinion, it really is a function of physics.
> 
> I have tried many many different methods, this included. But any method that "expidites" the steeping process comes at a cost.
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI CRR-L09 using Tapatalk


Even from a physics point of view, pre-blending should reduce steeping time. The important molecules are in the flavour concentrates. Without the volume of the carrier liquids they can reach equilibrium faster. After steeping the pre-blend you are not back to square one as you now have but one system to add to the PG/VG/Nic in PG or VG, which should leave you with a very short period of time to establish a new thermodynamic state of internal equilibrium! @Jebula999's example illustrates it perfectly for me.

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## Petrus (3/3/17)

My rule of steeping, I keep it in a dark place, give it a bit of a shake every day when I remember and let it rest for a month at least........Patience my Nr.1 rule.

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## zandernwn (6/3/17)

Andre said:


> Even from a physics point of view, pre-blending should reduce steeping time. The important molecules are in the flavour concentrates. Without the volume of the carrier liquids they can reach equilibrium faster. After steeping the pre-blend you are not back to square one as you now have but one system to add to the PG/VG/Nic in PG or VG, which should leave you with a very short period of time to establish a new thermodynamic state of internal equilibrium! @Jebula999's example illustrates it perfectly for me.


While I cant dispute this, I will state that while it may the time it will reduce steeping by will be negligible

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## Andre (6/3/17)

zandernwn said:


> While I cant dispute this, I will state that while it may the time it will reduce steeping by will be negligible
> Sent from my HUAWEI CRR-L09 using Tapatalk


From my experience it reduces steeping time by around 25 %.

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## zandernwn (6/3/17)

I will take your word on it. I have not had the same experience. 

My case and point is that the recommended steep time for one shot recipes are exaclty the same as the recommended steep time on the atf recipes themselves... if this were true wouldnt they have reduced the steep time on the one shots?

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## Jebula999 (6/3/17)

zandernwn said:


> I will take your word on it. I have not had the same experience.
> 
> My case and point is that the recommended steep time for one shot recipes are exaclty the same as the recommended steep time on the atf recipes themselves... if this were true wouldnt they have reduced the steep time on the one shots?
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI CRR-L09 using Tapatalk


Companies give themselves a "grace period". Same with cell phone stores they say it can take up to 48 hours for something to activate meanwhile 20min later it's done.

Steep times on those sites are a minimum time safe guard, some of them i have seen are good straight from the get go, but some take 6-8 weeks to get full flavored.

Taste and steep times are all subjective, so a 2 week period is a good general guideline, not a must.


In light of the original question, it might increase the overall flavor profile in a shorter amount of time, but all juice needs a certain length of time for the nicotine to have an effect on the liquid, no matter what you do, best is to wait till the 2 week time has passed.

But in the end, if it tastes good to you after 1 week, then 1 week was good enough. Just taste your juices after every couple days to see when the sweet spot is.

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## Raindance (6/3/17)

A simple RY4 straight mix as an example. I mix 100ml at a time and it only gets really good after a week when the bottle gets about half way. More complex juices take longer I have found that premixing concentrates does reduce the time somewhat. My Peanut butter and Banana mix takes over three weeks to turn good when mixed conventionally, but after about two weeks with a premix.

At the end of the day, there is no substitute for time.

Regards

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## Dietz (6/3/17)

Raindance said:


> A simple RY4 straight mix as an example. I mix 100ml at a time and it only gets really good after a week when the bottle gets about half way. More complex juices take longer I have found that premixing concentrates does reduce the time somewhat. My Peanut butter and Banana mix takes over three weeks to turn good when mixed conventionally, but after about two weeks with a premix.
> 
> At the end of the day, there is no substitute for time.
> 
> Regards


@Raindance What percentage do you use for the RY4 as a standalone?

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## Raindance (6/3/17)

Dietz said:


> @Raindance What percentage do you use for the RY4 as a standalone?





Pushed up my Nic after falling off the wagon while camping. Well not exactly falling off, more like my feet were dragging in the dust a bit.

Regards

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## zandernwn (7/3/17)

Stand alone I would say 6ish%. In a mix I typically settle for around 4

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## zandernwn (7/3/17)

I am assuming you are using tfa of course

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