# More discussion on clones



## jm10

clydern said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-H990 using Tapatalk



Lovely, kreepy krauly looks like a clone


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## clydern

jm10 said:


> Lovely, kreepy krauly looks like a clone
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can neither confirm or deny that claim sir 

Sent from my LG-H990 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Funny 4


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## CeeJay

UzziTherion said:


> We Vape local because local is lekker
> 
> Have an awesome Sunday Fam
> 
> #FuckClones
> 
> 
> UV


This post has been cloned on 2 other threads

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 4


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## UzziTherion

CeeJay said:


> This post has been cloned on 2 other threads



Shit, these clones are everywhere


UV

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## BioHAZarD

UzziTherion said:


> Shit, these clones are everywhere
> 
> 
> UV


They breed like rabbits buddy.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## UzziTherion

BioHAZarD said:


> They breed like rabbits buddy.



And so do the trolls that like love them


UV

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## BioHAZarD

UzziTherion said:


> And so do the trolls that like love them
> 
> 
> UV


Wait... What.... Trolls are real. No ways. U gotta be shitting me.. .

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## UzziTherion

BioHAZarD said:


> Wait... What.... Trolls are real. No ways. U gotta be shitting me.. .



True story my brother, true story, and it seems they’re cloning themselves at an alarming rate


UV

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## BioHAZarD

UzziTherion said:


> True story my brother, true story, and it seems they’re cloning themselves at an alarming rate
> 
> 
> UV


Well as long as the cloned clones are good copies we should be ok

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## UzziTherion

BioHAZarD said:


> Well as long as the cloned clones are good copies we should be ok



All are shit bru, absolutely shit


UV

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 4


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## BioHAZarD

UzziTherion said:


> All are shit bru, absolutely shit
> 
> 
> UV


To be honest I never saw much difference between the 24mm Flave authentic and clone 

And on the other hand there are probably some super shit authentic HE that is not even worth the clone prices

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## UzziTherion

BioHAZarD said:


> To be honest I never saw much difference between the 24mm Flave authentic and clone
> 
> And on the other hand there are probably some super shit authentic HE that is not even worth the clone prices



Let’s not go there, clones have no place anywhere because they are cheap knock offs of stolen intellectual property, they’re materials are of a far inferior quality then that of the authentic and over and above that, as I’ve said, they’re the product of stolen intellectual property! 

The modders of the authentic products are in most cases small, family run businesses, they have mouths to feed, bills to pay, just like us, and they come up with amazing products, only for some twat from China to copy! Then best of all, people buy these things, making huge corporations richer, the people making it don’t give 2 square shits about the vaper using it! They don’t even vape themselves, it’s all about profit! Then when their shit products don’t work, or harm someone, all vaping is affected!

This topic is at boiling point and I stand strong on it! I’m good friends with a lot of the modders, limelight is a great example, our latest order was delayed by over a month because the husband and wife team had their first child! We didn’t mind because we love their products and know that the quality is outstanding and that takes time, and whatever issues we might have with their products get dealt with swiftly and with utmost care, you try sending back a clone? 

Would you buy a cloned bmw and tell me you bought it to try it before you make up your mind on the real deal?

Some people buy the fakes to impress others, not for anything else!

We spend the money we do on authentics because we know the quality we want is always found, everyone’s different and so are there budgets!

If you can’t afford a Bentley, will you not drive a car? There are cheaper alternatives that do the same thing, maybe not as well as the Bentley, but it takes you from point A to B.

Much in the same, commercial gear will keep you off stinkys, and that’s the objective, there is good gear out there that won’t cost you an arm and a leg, so vape according to your budget, simple.

If you can’t afford the authentic, work up to it, it makes it that more worthwhile, but don’t be a tool and support a multinational that doesn’t give a **** about you or any other vaper out there!


UV

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 4 | Disagree 1


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## BioHAZarD

UzziTherion said:


> Let’s not go there, clones have no place anywhere because they are cheap knock offs of stolen intellectual property, they’re materials are of a far inferior quality then that of the authentic and over and above that, as I’ve said, they’re the product of stolen intellectual property!
> 
> The modders of the authentic products are in most cases small, family run businesses, they have mouths to feed, bills to pay, just like us, and they come up with amazing products, only for some twat from China to copy! Then best of all, people buy these things, making huge corporations richer, the people making it don’t give 2 square shits about the vaper using it! They don’t even vape themselves, it’s all about profit! Then when their shit products don’t work, or harm someone, all vaping is affected!
> 
> This topic is at boiling point and I stand strong on it! I’m good friends with a lot of the modders, limelight is a great example, our latest order was delayed by over a month because the husband and wife team had their first child! We didn’t mind because we love their products and know that the quality is outstanding and that takes time, and whatever issues we might have with their products get dealt with swiftly and with utmost care, you try sending back a clone?
> 
> Would you buy a cloned bmw and tell me you bought it to try it before you make up your mind on the real deal?
> 
> Some people buy the fakes to impress others, not for anything else!
> 
> We spend the money we do on authentics because we know the quality we want is always found, everyone’s different and so are there budgets!
> 
> If you can’t afford a Bentley, will you not drive a car? There are cheaper alternatives that do the same thing, maybe not as well as the Bentley, but it takes you from point A to B.
> 
> Much in the same, commercial gear will keep you off stinkys, and that’s the objective, there is good gear out there that won’t cost you an arm and a leg, so vape according to your budget, simple.
> 
> If you can’t afford the authentic, work up to it, it makes it that more worthwhile, but don’t be a tool and support a multinational that doesn’t give a **** about you or any other vaper out there!
> 
> 
> UV


All good points buddy

Still does not detract from a persons right to choose. Last time I checked that was still a valid option. Whether or not HE is worthwhile option is another argument. Sorry I can't come up with more lines of blah blah blah. More fun spending time with the kids honestly.

Last point. Was the IP patented?

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## UzziTherion

BioHAZarD said:


> All good points buddy
> 
> Still does not detract from a persons right to choose. Last time I checked that was still a valid option. Whether or not HE is worthwhile option is another argument. Sorry I can't come up with more lines of blah blah blah. More fun fun spending ti ES with the kids honestly.
> 
> Last point. Was the IP patented?



Everyone has a choice, no doubt, murders a choice too, so make the right ones

And patent or not, why support someone that makes fakes? 




UV

Reactions: Like 3


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## BioHAZarD

UzziTherion said:


> Everyone has a choice, no doubt, murders a choice too, so make the right ones
> 
> And patent or not, why support someone that makes fakes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UV


To be able to steal IP I think it for the most part it needs to be patented otherwise nobody owns it.

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## UzziTherion

BioHAZarD said:


> To be able to steal IP I think it for the most part it needs to be patented otherwise nobody owns it.



Ok my brother, you win, I’m not gonna get more into this with you, my personal opinion is clones are shit, and they’re taking the bread and butter away from hard working people, I will never support them and off late I’m willing to do whatever I can in my power to get these shits out of our collective community, we’re a family, and I wouldn’t want my brothers and sisters to be part of a crime, and endanger themselves using untested, unsafe products


UV

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## BioHAZarD

UzziTherion said:


> Ok my brother, you win, I’m not gonna get more into this with you, my personal opinion is clones are shit, and they’re taking the bread and butter away from hard working people, I will never support them and off late I’m willing to do whatever I can in my power to get these shits out of our collective community, we’re a family, and I wouldn’t want my brothers and sisters to be part of a crime, and endanger themselves using untested, unsafe products
> 
> 
> UV


U got pm buddy

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## Silver

Am creating this thread to house some discussions and posts on clones from the "What's in your hand thread". They will be moved here shortly and will appear above this post.

Better to keep the What's in your hand thread on topic

Reactions: Like 4 | Thanks 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Hakhan

UzziTherion said:


> Let’s not go there, clones have no place anywhere because they are cheap knock offs of stolen intellectual property, they’re materials are of a far inferior quality then that of the authentic and over and above that, as I’ve said, they’re the product of stolen intellectual property!
> 
> The modders of the authentic products are in most cases small, family run businesses, they have mouths to feed, bills to pay, just like us, and they come up with amazing products, only for some twat from China to copy! Then best of all, people buy these things, making huge corporations richer, the people making it don’t give 2 square shits about the vaper using it! They don’t even vape themselves, it’s all about profit! Then when their shit products don’t work, or harm someone, all vaping is affected!
> 
> This topic is at boiling point and I stand strong on it! I’m good friends with a lot of the modders, limelight is a great example, our latest order was delayed by over a month because the husband and wife team had their first child! We didn’t mind because we love their products and know that the quality is outstanding and that takes time, and whatever issues we might have with their products get dealt with swiftly and with utmost care, you try sending back a clone?
> 
> Would you buy a cloned bmw and tell me you bought it to try it before you make up your mind on the real deal?
> 
> Some people buy the fakes to impress others, not for anything else!
> 
> We spend the money we do on authentics because we know the quality we want is always found, everyone’s different and so are there budgets!
> 
> If you can’t afford a Bentley, will you not drive a car? There are cheaper alternatives that do the same thing, maybe not as well as the Bentley, but it takes you from point A to B.
> 
> Much in the same, commercial gear will keep you off stinkys, and that’s the objective, there is good gear out there that won’t cost you an arm and a leg, so vape according to your budget, simple.
> 
> If you can’t afford the authentic, work up to it, it makes it that more worthwhile, but don’t be a tool and support a multinational that doesn’t give a **** about you or any other vaper out there!
> 
> 
> UV


i gather you dont use generic medication either.

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## UzziTherion

Hakhan said:


> i gather you dont use generic medication either.



In fact I don’t 


UV

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## BioHAZarD

Ok. Crisis averted. @UzziTherion and myself are insulting each others' lineage in private now. 

Carry on. 
#prochoice

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## BioHAZarD

UzziTherion said:


> In fact I don’t
> 
> 
> UV


I do

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## incredible_hullk

In fact medical aids are encouraging to buy generic ...

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## BioHAZarD

I like this initial thing at the bottom of a post. 

CB

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## BioHAZarD

incredible_hullk said:


> In fact medical aids are encouraging to buy generic ...


As with anything else more expensive is not always better.

BMW excluded of course

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## incredible_hullk

My money, my life ... the end. When I have free cash I buy authentic else I have no issue buying a clone ... yes go ahead and publicly castrate me 

If I choose a particular purchase no person should judge me 

Tell me no one has downloaded a movie or game

I’m tired of this forum starting to judge and being all goodey tooshoes...

Few ago years ago everyone was openly showing clones in vape mail and now it’s like you have lepers disease

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## jm10

An no one tagged me, thanks guys

Let me first start of in saying i dont own any clones or HE so I’m not biased.


This whole clone wars thing is utter crap, everyone that is fighting against clones has no stakes in the matter.......”but why do you say this jm10” well simply because the clone hater act as if its their bread and butter were the modders themselves are the victims, not you.

Let the actually people and companies fight the cloners. You are a customer/friend and you are fighting a war that doesn’t directly involve you. 

You dont see spar customers fighting checkers customers because spar has a problem with checkers. 

People are acting as if this is some life or death scenario, please people this is vaping, it really is not that big a deal. 

Vaping was a community were no judgement was passed weather you are low end or HE, we vaped to live a better live.

Yet now we get divisions in the community brought on by a fight that has nothing to do with us. 

Some people seem to think that if they fight this war on behalf of a modder it makes a difference, well it doesn’t because in court case your opinion means nothing because your not involved in the business side.

So you guys can carry on this war and carry on dividing this once wonderful place and see where it gets us. 

Leave our people on the forum alone, if they want clones i dont care cause at the end of the day if that keeps them of smoking then thats all that matters.

If only people were this passionate about our country(actual real problem that we are personally involved in) and how its run, we would be first world by one.



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## jm10

incredible_hullk said:


> My money, my life ... the end. When I have free cash I buy authentic else I have no issue buying a clone ... yes go ahead and publicly castrate me
> 
> If I choose a particular purchase no person should judge me
> 
> Tell me no one has downloaded a movie or game
> 
> I’m tired of this forum starting to judge and being all goodey tooshoes...
> 
> Few ago years ago everyone was openly showing clones in vape mail and now it’s like you have lepers disease



No one can judge you brother, i got your back.

And people are hypocrites, some dont but clones but pirate‍ 


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## lesvaches

jm10 said:


> No one can judge you brother, i got your back.
> 
> And people are hypocrites, some dont but clones but pirate‍
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


half don’t even know what they consider “original” is a clone or generic.

if you look for instance at cell phones, how long was Huawei considered a no name brand? or clone? and i’m still proud to say i have never even once in my life touched a blackberry.

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## KZOR

I have download mp3's , streamed the occasional movie, swore at times, have lied to my loved ones, drank Pick&Pay cola, jumped a robot, used a cell while driving, ......... but to name a few. 
Bearing this in mind, do i have the right to make a choice for someone else? 
My kids are taught that you can only preach once you have earned that moral platform.

Of course i don't prefer a clone above an authentic and of course i vape according to my budget and of course i realize the impact it has when people buy clones and of course i realize it is theft of intellectual property. 

So what course of action do we take ........ first off we need to get emotions out of the way, secondly we need to educate and thirdly we need to hope for the best outcome. That is that, but a educated individual still has the right to decide for himself.

Do you think i am happy that Tom Cruise is a Scientologist or that a close friend is homophobic or soccer is the most successful sport in the world. The answer is NO. What is important is how you cope with that "NO".
Is it good to stand for something that is morally correct? OF COURSE
Is it good to become irrational about your moral stand? OF COURSE NOT

I am not *pro-clone* but *pro-choice* for those with the capacity to make rational decisions.

In the famous words of Charles Darwin ...... _*"I think"*_.  (which means that this is my opinion based on what i know and feel currently.)

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## SmokeyJoe

Look if i could afford HE i would buy it. But i cant. Spending my money on my kids is more important than trying to show off. 
Do i own a clone? Yes. Is it just the same as the HE version, no. But i still enjoy the setup.
One cannot steal an idea or product if its not patented. Also if you want to buy original meds instead of generic (which is not frowned upon and recommended by medical aid) then you have way too much money.
I have to echo @jm10. Can we just stop deviding this forum with the HE and none HE side. We are here to achieve the same goal

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## lesvaches

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/busin...encers-into-paying-600-for-20-shoes-1.4199050

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## jm10

lesvaches said:


> half don’t even know what they consider “original” is a clone or generic.
> 
> if you look for instance at cell phones, how long was Huawei considered a no name brand? or clone? and i’m still proud to say i have never even once in my life touched a blackberry.



Yup everyone copies everyone. Slight twerks and designs is still the same concept so everyone is just a copycat of the first rda/rta/mod design


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## Silver

Good to discuss this topic and get opinions from all angles

My interaction with clones started back in about 2014 - a few months after I started vaping. I got a Kayfun 3.1. Didn't know it was a clone because I didn't know these things were cloned or that clones were even a thing. My ignorance I guess. Anyway, that damn Kayfun took plenty hours of my time to try get right - but it always leaked. I tried so hard to get it right - and then retired it. I decided then that I would never buy a Kayfun again. I was highly peed off with this Kayfun brand! Over the years I learned that I had gotten a clone. And that the authentics were not easy to get. About a year or so ago, I got an authentic Kayfun V5 and V3 Mini from Throat Punch - and they worked beautifully!

The issue is that Kayfun clone experience I had put me off Kayfuns for a few years. The authentics are actually very good devices - but I didn't know. It was probably a poorly made clone that I got. I do understand that some clones are very good and sometimes work even better than the original. And at the price, a clone that works even 90% as good as the authentic is a good deal for a customer.

*But for me, when a cloner copies a well-known device, logos and all - and uses the name and the brand that the OEM has spent a lot of time and money developing in order to just make a buck - then to me it's just wrong.* I dont care about the legalities of it or whether the IP was patented. It's not cool to do that. 

Why don't these companies rather try understand what makes the particular device good and where it can be improved - and then make some changes to it - and call it something else? I think the reason is that it takes effort and people would rather buy a Kayfun clone than a new unheard of device.

For a few years I now prefer to buy authentic where I can afford it. I can't justify buying some of the very highly priced gear - but I would rather buy something authentic that's in my price range.

Obviously everyone will have their own opinion on this - but this is just mine.

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## jm10

lesvaches said:


> https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/busin...encers-into-paying-600-for-20-shoes-1.4199050



People really do buy life time tickets for the hype train. 


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

What is a HE?

As for the topic I dont even know what is clones or not. But I know that most things from China are not the best quality, so if a china clone a china surely your argument against clones cant be quality

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## SmokeyJoe

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> What is a HE?
> 
> As for the topic I dont even know what is clones or not. But I know that most things from China are not the best quality, so if a china clone a china surely your argument against clones cant be quality


HE=High End. i.e. overpriced

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## jm10

Silver said:


> Good to discuss this topic and get opinions from all angles
> 
> My interaction with clones started back in about 2014 - a few months after I started vaping. I got a Kayfun 3.1. Didn't know it was a clone because I didn't know these things were cloned or that clones were even a thing. My ignorance I guess. Anyway, that damn Kayfun took plenty hours of my time to try get right - but it always leaked. I tried so hard to get it right - and then retired it. I decided then that I would never buy a Kayfun again. I was highly peed off with this Kayfun brand! Over the years I learned that I had gotten a clone. And that the authentics were not easy to get. About a year or so ago, I got an authentic Kayfun V5 and V3 Mini from Throat Punch - and they worked beautifully!
> 
> The issue is that Kayfun clone experience I had put me off Kayfuns for a few years. The authentics are actually very good devices - but I didn't know. It was probably a poorly made clone that I got. I do understand that some clones are very good and sometimes work even better than the original. And at the price, a clone that works even 90% as good as the authentic is a good deal for a customer.
> 
> *But for me, when a cloner copies a well-known device, logos and all - and uses the name and the brand that the OEM has spent a lot of time and money developing in order to just make a buck - then to me it's just wrong.* I dont care about the legalities of it or whether the IP was patented. It's not cool to do that. Why don't these companies rather try understand what makes the particular device good and where it can be improved - and then make some changes to it - and call it something else. I think the reason is that it takes effort and people would rather buy a Kayfun clone than a new unheard of device.
> 
> For a few years I now prefer to buy authentic where I can afford it. I can't justify buying some of the very highly priced gear - but I would rather buy something authentic that's in my price range.
> 
> Obviously everyone will have their own opinion on this - but this is just mine.



Its not cool @Silver, I’m not saying stealing is right cause its not, but what we are trying to get at is to save someones life(through vaping clones or not) then thats all that should matter to us commoners.

In the quality and workmanship of clones i cannot comment as iv never played with one. 

But we are all here for one common goal, which is to stop smoking and live a healthy life so thats all this forum should be about. 

Thats one reason judgement should not be passed here, we are all grown ups and should act that way.


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## KZOR

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> But I know that most things from China are not the best quality



That is a myth ...... a lot Chinese companies can produce excellent products. Why do you think huge reviewers would link their names to a Chinese manufacturer producing a atty or mod. 
Lost Vape, Wotofo, Smok, Wismec, Geekvape, Coilart, Eleaf, Ijoy, Aspire and so on has all produced some great products.

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## Silver

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> What is a HE?
> 
> As for the topic I dont even know what is clones or not. But I know that most things from China are not the best quality, so if a china clone a china surely your argument against clones cant be quality



Hi @Jean claude Vaaldamme 
HE stands for High End
Typically refers to high quality vaping products that are usually manufactured in fairly small production runs and sold at higher prices than the "commercial" gear that is typically produced and sold in much higher quantities on a global scale. 

Check out the following thread in the HE subforum. It might help further:
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/what-is-high-end-gear-is-it-worth-it.t32981/

It seems that the cloners clone more of the HE gear. But you get clones of more reasonably priced "commercial" gear too. For example, the Flave 22 is considered a high end RDA and it sells new here for about R1500-R2,000. Clones are a few hundred Rands. But even the little Eleaf Pico mod has been cloned. So the clone issue does seem to reach quite widely in the spectrum of vape gear.

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## UzziTherion

jm10 said:


> Its not cool @Silver, I’m not saying stealing is right cause its not, but what we are trying to get at is to save someones life(through vaping clones or not) then thats all that should matter to us commoners.
> 
> In the quality and workmanship of clones i cannot comment as iv never played with one.
> 
> But we are all here for one common goal, which is to stop smoking and live a healthy life so thats all this forum should be about.
> 
> Thats one reason judgement should not be passed here, we are all grown ups and should act that way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Agreed my brother, agreed 110% but some instances, the clones, particularly the Mech mods, are not built with safety in mind, now you tell a noob that look here buddy, here’s a mod that cost 5k example and I’ve got a replica that will cost you 900 and it’s just the same, and in pics you’ll reach fomo level one billion and then there poor guy has the mod short or something worst in his hand, then what?

All vapes and vaping are bad because a bad thing happened to some guy with one and apparently it’s one of the best most expensive ones money can buy? Then what?

We’re having a tough time as it is in terms of legislation in this country do we need bad press right now?

Everyone’s entitled to their opinion granted, and everyone can be pro choice, all I’m saying is educate one another that some clones no matter how good they might look are in fact dangerous! 




UV

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## Silver

jm10 said:


> Its not cool @Silver, I’m not saying stealing is right cause its not, but what we are trying to get at is to save someones life(through vaping clones or not) then thats all that should matter to us commoners.
> 
> In the quality and workmanship of clones i cannot comment as iv never played with one.
> 
> But we are all here for one common goal, which is to stop smoking and live a healthy life so thats all this forum should be about.
> 
> Thats one reason judgement should not be passed here, we are all grown ups and should act that way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Agreed with you @jm10
The most important thing is to help vapers to get off the stinkies and get onto the vaping.
We shouldn't be judging people who buy clones, look down on them, be nasty or divide the community over this issue. I agree with that.

I do think though that educating people about this issue so they can make a more informed choice is the way to go. I agree with what @KZOR said in this regard.

I will stick to my view that cloners who clone a well-known product, names, logos and all - are not cool. That is my view. I may not be right amongst everyone and I do see the benefit to the budget constrained vaper. But it's my view that that this is not cool and I 'd prefer not to give those types of cloners my hard-earned Rands. After all, there are so many great authentic and more reasonably priced devices that vape just as good and may even work better in the long run. I have several of these devices running now for 3/4 years without a problem and they are GREAT.

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## lesvaches

i hope some of you realize that a R5-10K price tag is NOT indicative of anything other than LABOUR

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## BioHAZarD

lesvaches said:


> i hope some of you realize that a R5-10K price tag is NOT indicative of anything other than LABOUR


Yeah and not necessarily craftsmanship

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## jm10

Silver said:


> I will stick to my view that cloners who clone a well-known product, names, logos and all - are not cool. That is my view. I may not be right amongst everyone and I do see the benefit to the budget constrained vaper. But it's my view that that this is not cool and I 'd prefer not to give those types of cloners my hard-earned Rands. After all, there are so many great authentic and more reasonably priced devices that vape just as good and may even work better in the long run. I have several of these devices running now for 3/4 years without a problem and they are GREAT.



Oh no...your correct in your views, all of us agree with you on the wrong aspect of cloning. Dont get us wrong @Silver its not that we’re saying cloning is right.

We are fighting the people that pass judgement of loyal forum members for there choices.

Just let the people vape and end goal of quitting stinkies is all that matters no matter which way you do it.


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## Beserker786

So I got a clone when I started only because I didn’t want to pay and I wasn’t aware there were clones, and a week later got a cheap authentic kit to make up. But I prefer watching the budget and don’t necessarily buy expensive stuff, only what I feel I want. In vaping, I feel authenticity has a direct corollation to quality and function, not the same as with generic medicines for example. If good quality clones exist, I’m say why not because there is merit to it being cheaper IF the quality and function are the same, we would just not being taken hostage by capatilists. The only difference should be price and quality driven. However, when stealing branding and labeling etc, then that’s just theft anyway.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Ok so how do we know that most of these ejiuces is not just a clone of a recipe they got of the internet? Or bought the original and tasted it and made a clone? Should we stop buying juice also?

On that point. If a 60ml cost average R200. That is R3300/l. Then petrol is R16/l , Brandy R150/l
Someone is ripping of someone. This is a new market and maybe clones can get it to its senses. Every second clown opens a little vapeshop around the corner. Seeing that it is still a small market and there are so many shops opening, that means profit margins are huge. So maybe clones etc can bring prices down, because obviously the vendors and manufacturers have only profit in mind and not getting people of cigs?
This is how economics work. New market everyone make a quick buck. Then its settles, big companies will take the market over with cost effective manufacturing and all these fly by night overpriced underskilled garage assembly plants will dissapear. Small, real high end stuff will survive

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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Ok so how do we know that most of these ejiuces is not just a clone of a recipe they got of the internet? Or bought the original and tasted it and made a clone? Should we stop buying juice also?
> 
> On that point. If a 60ml cost average R200. That is R3300/l. Then petrol is R16/l , Brandy R150/l
> Someone is ripping of someone. This is a new market and maybe clones can get it to its senses. Every second clown opens a little vapeshop around the corner. Seeing that it is still a small market and there are so many shops opening, that means profit margins are huge. So maybe clones etc can bring prices down, because obviously the vendors and manufacturers have only profit in mind and not getting people of cigs?
> This is how economics work. New market everyone make a quick buck. Then its settles, big companies will take the market over with cost effective manufacturing and all these fly by night overpriced underskilled garage assembly plants will dissapear. Small, real high end stuff will survive



We are talking more in the realm of HE gear here eg; rda/rta/mods but i get what your saying.


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## Christos

I think you guys need to put your handbags down for a minute and consider the real enemy. Cigarettes.

HE or clone as long as you are vaping that is a win.
Pro choice all the way. I see people hating on the fact that some of us decided we will not support intellectual property theft.
If you think we are attacking you or have a moral high ground that makes us better than you then I suggest you look within to establish why your life feels sad and why you have an inferiority complex.

Bottom line is we are all United in the fight against combustible tobacco. 

If you choose to feel small then by all means do so in your own personal capacity. If you really think that I care about you or your personal decisions then you are sadly conceited as I do not.

That's is all I have to say on the matter.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

The market for high end stuff will never be effected by clones.

The only reason you will know someone paid R2000 for a bottle of whiskey, is because he will tell you.

It wasnt bought because it makes you drunk faster, or taste better than the R300 bottle

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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> The only reason you will know someone paid R2000 for a bottle of whiskey, is because he will tell you.
> 
> It wasnt bought because it makes you drunk faster, or taste better than the R300 bottle




Lmao but my Lagavulin does taste better then j&b to me i also dont tell people to boast about it but to get others to join me in the taste sensation. 


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## CeeJay

UzziTherion said:


> Agreed my brother, agreed 110% but some instances, the clones, particularly the Mech mods, are not built with safety in mind, now you tell a noob that look here buddy, here’s a mod that cost 5k example and I’ve got a replica that will cost you 900 and it’s just the same, and in pics you’ll reach fomo level one billion and then there poor guy has the mod short or something worst in his hand, then what?
> 
> All vapes and vaping are bad because a bad thing happened to some guy with one and apparently it’s one of the best most expensive ones money can buy? Then what?
> 
> We’re having a tough time as it is in terms of legislation in this country do we need bad press right now?
> 
> Everyone’s entitled to their opinion granted, and everyone can be pro choice, all I’m saying is educate one another that some clones no matter how good they might look are in fact dangerous!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UV


I agree with a lot of the things you say in terms of piracy. But saying the 5k mod is safer than the 900 mod is far from the truth. Most clones are literally 1:1 especially the mechs. Some clone mechs have better threads than the authentic and actually perform better. Does this make it right? Not at all. It's not clones that's going to give vaping a bad name. It's the NOOB with mech FOMO building 0.05 because he saw Grimm Green doing it and use his prettiest 30Q that was on charge. If you take all this 'kill the clone' enthusiasm and put it into something like educating the uneducated in safety it will have a more positive impact on the vaping community. I feel you're creating unnecessary ripples amongst us peaceful forumites. The clone debate has had its days here. If a Clone can get people away from tobacco products then no harm done in my books.

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## UzziTherion

My apologies to ALL, I did NOT intend to start a shit storm, nor did I intend to cause a divide!

My opinion is my opinion and I do NOT look down on anybody in our community, for those of you that know me, you will know where is stand on ALL gear, the main aim as Christos said is to keep off the cigarettes.

I will not say anything further on the clone issue, I personally hate them and will not endorse them or their use, I have no issue with those that use them, choice is yours, just don’t tell me they’re better then the real thing and I over paid, I know what I own and why I spent what I did on it, and I’m happy with MY CHOICE!

I love our community and I do my best to educate and help others, everyone’s entitled to their own opinions and like all things in this crazy mixed up world we live in, no people will ever agree on everything. One thing is for sure, vaping brings us together and the friends and relationships I’ve forged from vaping have become some of my best, EVER, I mean it! 

So I apologize unreservedly if I upset or offended anyone, that was not my intention.

Happy Vapes Fam!




UV

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## Huffapuff

Just a question: how many HE manufacturers have gone out of business because of clones? 

As far as I've seen they sell all of their product pretty smartly. In fact it gets to the point where you can't buy the original and are left with the only options of buying the clone or trawling the classifieds.

Same goes for pirated movies and music - ever seen a poor movie star or pop star or Hollywood studio? 

I don't buy this argument that clones steal money from the original creator - it's a fallacy based on the line fed to us by record executives and movie studios protecting their massive profit margin.

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## jm10

@clydern


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Huffapuff said:


> Just a question: how many HE manufacturers have gone out of business because of clones?
> 
> As far as I've seen they sell all of their product pretty smartly. In fact it gets to the point where you can't buy the original and are left with the only options of buying the clone or trawling the classifieds.
> 
> Same goes for pirated movies and music - ever seen a poor movie star or pop star or Hollywood studio?
> 
> I don't buy this argument that clones steal money from the original creator - it's a fallacy based on the line fed to us by record executives and movie studios protecting their massive profit margin.



Lagavulin

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## Resistance

Politics...?
Cool

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## jm10

Huffapuff said:


> Just a question: how many HE manufacturers have gone out of business because of clones?
> 
> As far as I've seen they sell all of their product pretty smartly. In fact it gets to the point where you can't buy the original and are left with the only options of buying the clone or trawling the classifieds.
> 
> Same goes for pirated movies and music - ever seen a poor movie star or pop star or Hollywood studio?
> 
> I don't buy this argument that clones steal money from the original creator - it's a fallacy based on the line fed to us by record executives and movie studios protecting their massive profit margin.



Good point, i have tried many times for randomisers but cant get in, also they never have stock cause its sold out so fast. 

I dont think they have any worries because they are not supplying the same target market at the Cloners. 

Remember we are talking globally with thousands upon thousands of HE buyers and they produce a few hundered at a time so there is always a shortage for popular HE gear. 


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## jm10

Resistance said:


> Politics...?
> Cool



We were bored


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## Resistance

There is a place for clones. Because not all people are cheap.some really can't afford it even when second hand.
Like jm10 said look at the real problem in our country.
Even those that can afford the high life buy Chinese clones and boast

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## Resistance

And that includes cars and tech.wiring and cables.fridges, freezers. Tell me no one has never used foreign labour?
And some of that same people that said I just bought me a Ferrari is the same guy that boast how little he pays his workforce.and how cheaper it is to have foreign labour.

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## Silver

Resistance said:


> There is a place for clones. Because not all people are cheap.some really can't afford it even when second hand.



I respectfully disagree with this comment @Resistance 

Let's say someone is on a budget and wants to buy a clone of the Skyline. Why do they need the cloned Skyline to stay off the stinkies? Surely there are several other authentic RTAs that are affordable (around the price of the clone Skyline) that would give a great vape as well? 

What I am trying to say is that clones are not the only way possible for a vaper to vape when on a budget.

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## jm10

Resistance said:


> And that includes cars and tech.wiring and cables.fridges, freezers. Tell me no one has never used foreign labour?
> And some of that same people that said I just bought me a Ferrari is the same guy that boast how little he pays his workforce.and how cheaper it is to have foreign labour.



Agreed, its just like @KZOR said- there is no one that is innocent and that hasn’t done something that others consider wrong. 


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Havent used a clone but was thinking. 
Lets say you take a recurve rda and out it on a R800 clone and vape at 55watts
Now will you get a better flavour and cloud if you put that recurve on an R20 000 mod at 55watts, that was made out of a piece of wood cut from a tree that some indigious tribe's chief's grandmother planted two days before, the second last dodo in the world, fell out a tree on here head, killing her instandly, the wood was then polished with ashes from the vulcano that claimed the chielf's father after he ate rotten marulas, then polished with cocnut oil mixed with the foreskin of the chief's son, that died 6 days and seven nights after the ceremony?

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## BioHAZarD

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Havent used a clone but was thinking.
> Lets say you take a recurve rda and out it on a R800 clone and vape at 55watts
> Now will you get a better flavour and cloud if you put that recurve on an R20 000 mod at 55watts, that was made out of a piece of wood cut from a tree that some indigious tribe's chief's grandmother planted two days before, the second last dodo in the world, fell out a tree on here head, killing her instandly, the wood was then polished with ashes from the vulcano that claimed the chielf's father after he ate rotten marulas, then polished with cocnut oil mixed with the foreskin of the chief's son, that died 6 days and seven nights after the ceremony?


Dude this is possibly your best post yet.
Almost wet myself laughing.

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## Silver

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Havent used a clone but was thinking.
> Lets say you take a recurve rda and out it on a R800 clone and vape at 55watts
> Now will you get a better flavour and cloud if you put that recurve on an R20 000 mod at 55watts, that was made out of a piece of wood cut from a tree that some indigious tribe's chief's grandmother planted two days before, the second last dodo in the world, fell out a tree on here head, killing her instandly, the wood was then polished with ashes from the vulcano that claimed the chielf's father after he ate rotten marulas, then polished with cocnut oil mixed with the foreskin of the chief's son, that died 6 days and seven nights after the ceremony?



I don't think the exotic wood you are talking about would make any difference to the vape @Jean claude Vaaldamme
If the electronic board inside and the contacts and batteries are the same, then I think the vape would be identical.

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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Havent used a clone but was thinking.
> Lets say you take a recurve rda and out it on a R800 clone and vape at 55watts
> Now will you get a better flavour and cloud if you put that recurve on an R20 000 mod at 55watts, that was made out of a piece of wood cut from a tree that some indigious tribe's chief's grandmother planted two days before, the second last dodo in the world, fell out a tree on here head, killing her instandly, the wood was then polished with ashes from the vulcano that claimed the chielf's father after he ate rotten marulas, then polished with cocnut oil mixed with the foreskin of the chief's son, that died 6 days and seven nights after the ceremony?



Well that was very detailed


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## BioHAZarD

UzziTherion said:


> My apologies to ALL, I did NOT intend to start a shit storm, nor did I intend to cause a divide!
> 
> My opinion is my opinion and I do NOT look down on anybody in our community, for those of you that know me, you will know where is stand on ALL gear, the main aim as Christos said is to keep off the cigarettes.
> 
> I will not say anything further on the clone issue, I personally hate them and will not endorse them or their use, I have no issue with those that use them, choice is yours, just don’t tell me they’re better then the real thing and I over paid, I know what I own and why I spent what I did on it, and I’m happy with MY CHOICE!
> 
> I love our community and I do my best to educate and help others, everyone’s entitled to their own opinions and like all things in this crazy mixed up world we live in, no people will ever agree on everything. One thing is for sure, vaping brings us together and the friends and relationships I’ve forged from vaping have become some of my best, EVER, I mean it!
> 
> So I apologize unreservedly if I upset or offended anyone, that was not my intention.
> 
> Happy Vapes Fam!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UV


Now that is @UzziTherion we all know and love. 
Humble to the last.

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## UzziTherion

BioHAZarD said:


> Now that is @UzziTherion we all know and love.
> Humble to the last.





We’re family here and families have their disagreements but at the end of the day it’s nothing but love

Thanx my brother


UV

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## jm10

UzziTherion said:


> We’re family here and families have their disagreements but at the end of the day it’s nothing but love
> 
> Thanx my brother
> 
> 
> UV



I know you hate me and everything right now but can i have your Pellucid now 




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## Adephi

Huffapuff said:


> Just a question: how many HE manufacturers have gone out of business because of clones?
> 
> As far as I've seen they sell all of their product pretty smartly. In fact it gets to the point where you can't buy the original and are left with the only options of buying the clone or trawling the classifieds.
> 
> Same goes for pirated movies and music - ever seen a poor movie star or pop star or Hollywood studio?
> 
> I don't buy this argument that clones steal money from the original creator - it's a fallacy based on the line fed to us by record executives and movie studios protecting their massive profit margin.



Completely agree.

If the manufacturer's bread and butter depend on it, why would they make it impossible for 99% of the vaping community to get their product? You make your product more affordable to sell more and in turn make more profit.

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## UzziTherion

jm10 said:


> I know you hate me and everything right now but can i have your Pellucid now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I don’t hate you my brother or anyone else in our community for that matter

Which one, I have 2


UV

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## Resistance

True @Silver.
But and yes there's a but...if you make the kayfun sound that good,someone would want to try it even if they can't afford it.
Same as in when it can't afford an authentic car...or are really cheap you buy a Toyota,hyundai,cherry,tata etc.with features of authentic cars.lol

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## lesvaches

Resistance said:


> True @Silver.
> But and yes there's a but...if you make the kayfun sound that good,someone would want to try it even if they can't afford it.
> Same as in when it can't afford an authentic car...or are really cheap you buy a Toyota,hyundai,cherry,tata etc.with features of authentic cars.lol


"authentic cars"

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## Resistance

lesvaches said:


> "authentic cars"


In the 70s and 80's that was a huge topic.Japanese and Chinese cars that stole from the supposedly authentic brands.
Maybe they should do what they did and merge with clone manufacturers and become huge enterprises.

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## lesvaches

Resistance said:


> In the 70s and 80's that was a huge topic.Japanese and Chinese cars that stole from the supposedly authentic brands.
> Maybe they should do what they did and merge with clone manufacturers and become huge enterprises.


oh yes, that's all we need more of, large corporations dictating how we should think, vote and live.

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## Daniel

I really don't get all the hooh hah about all of this...plain and simple you want to buy clones be my guest but don't come up with all this hogwash about can't afford it or want to try it out.....own it and move on.

I used clones as well (before anyone comments on that again lol) and they were OK but it was a conscious decision I made personally to support a worthy cause. I don't think I'm better than anyone else or look down on so called clone buyers lol that's some BS some ppl are trying to use to justify their trolling other forumites.

I don't know where anyone gets the idea that they get looked down on or get trolled for using or showing clones on the forum please someone show me the proof....so this whole fiasco is a load of crap and I think the people that started this should be ashamed especially going on about how this so called 'elitism' is causing a divide yet THEY are the ones causing it with their own insecurities and issues.....

Aaaaaand let the trolling begin lol.....gotto love the ignore button

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## Resistance

lesvaches said:


> oh yes, that's all we need more of, large corporations dictating how we should think, vote and live.


As far as I see it,the system already works for those that can afford it.for everyone else the doors get shut in their faces.
Now I don't own clones but if its something that's out of my budget and want to try then, why not?
Nobody stand up for me when my bread and butter gets taken out of my hands by cheaper options

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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> I really don't get all the hooh hah about all of this...plain and simple you want to buy clones be my guest but don't come up with all this hogwash about can't afford it or want to try it out.....own it and move on.
> 
> I used clones as well (before anyone comments on that again lol) and they were OK but it was a conscious decision I made personally to support a worthy cause. I don't think I'm better than anyone else or look down on so called clone buyers lol that's some BS some ppl are trying to use to justify their trolling other forumites.
> 
> I don't know where anyone gets the idea that they get looked down on or get trolled for using or showing clones on the forum please someone show me the proof....so this whole fiasco is a load of crap and I think the people that started this should be ashamed especially going on about how this so called 'elitism' is causing a divide yet THEY are the ones causing it with their own insecurities and issues.....
> 
> Aaaaaand let the trolling begin lol.....gotto love the ignore button


yeah dude that's why we ignore you

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## jm10

Daniel said:


> I really don't get all the hooh hah about all of this...plain and simple you want to buy clones be my guest but don't come up with all this hogwash about can't afford it or want to try it out.....own it and move on.
> 
> I used clones as well (before anyone comments on that again lol) and they were OK but it was a conscious decision I made personally to support a worthy cause. I don't think I'm better than anyone else or look down on so called clone buyers lol that's some BS some ppl are trying to use to justify their trolling other forumites.
> 
> I don't know where anyone gets the idea that they get looked down on or get trolled for using or showing clones on the forum please someone show me the proof....so this whole fiasco is a load of crap and I think the people that started this should be ashamed especially going on about how this so called 'elitism' is causing a divide yet THEY are the ones causing it with their own insecurities and issues.....
> 
> Aaaaaand let the trolling begin lol.....gotto love the ignore button



The wars were brought onto the forum so.......... 

But as you can see we stand united stronger then ever so i think this cleared the air. If you keep things bottled up then one day you will explode so its better we get this over and done with now. 

If the forum shows more and more clone free and its followed by the more well know(like reviewers) and you keep punting clone free and its bad then would you really expect people to not feel out of place showing their clones. No they are going to feel like they are doing something wrong.


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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> The wars were brought onto the forum so..........
> 
> But as you can see we stand united stronger then ever so i think this cleared the air. If you keep things bottled up then one day you will explode so its better we get this over and done with now.
> 
> If the forum shows more and more clone free and its followed by the more well know(like reviewers) and you keep punting clone free and its bad then would you really expect people to not feel out of place showing their clones. No they are going to feel like they are doing something wrong.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


ai dude 
what would we ever do without you

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## Resistance

If you don't want it cloned.buy a patent. If you can't afford it,do what we do and get over it

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## lesvaches

BioHAZarD said:


> ai dude
> what would we ever do without you


lots

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## jm10

Daniel said:


> I really don't get all the hooh hah about all of this...plain and simple you want to buy clones be my guest but don't come up with all this hogwash about can't afford it or want to try it out.....own it and move on.
> 
> I used clones as well (before anyone comments on that again lol) and they were OK but it was a conscious decision I made personally to support a worthy cause. I don't think I'm better than anyone else or look down on so called clone buyers lol that's some BS some ppl are trying to use to justify their trolling other forumites.
> 
> I don't know where anyone gets the idea that they get looked down on or get trolled for using or showing clones on the forum please someone show me the proof....so this whole fiasco is a load of crap and I think the people that started this should be ashamed especially going on about how this so called 'elitism' is causing a divide yet THEY are the ones causing it with their own insecurities and issues.....
> 
> Aaaaaand let the trolling begin lol.....gotto love the ignore button



Also dude i got no insecurities i got no issue discussing topics when im wrong so i have no need for the ignore button. Im no keyboard warrior either but I’m not scared to debate an issue.

I have no clones, never had so unlike yourself I’m been unbiased and coming at this from a community aspect. 

I have no ties to mod makers or cloners so again I’m unbiased, all i say is let them fight there own battles(see its their company and product not yours). My friend has a liquor shop and tops spar opened not to far away but you dont see me going and fighting his battles for him because he loses business. 

I said this in a post above, imagine if you showed this much passion over our countries crap(i dont see you complaining about bidvest and boycotting them), something that has to do with every one of us but no lets go balls out over vaping, its a joke. 


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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> Sorry but who exactly brought this 'war' to the forum besides the people with a chip on their shoulder??? So I think you right let's get this over and done with. Nobody 'punted' clone free on the forum in fact it was kept OFF the forum for this exact reason BS politics. Funny enough right after I did my announcement of joining the initiative is the time I started getting trolled on my own review thread coincidence I think not.....
> 
> Put please stay 'United'...the rest of us will just carry on...I'm done with this BS topic and BS thread....


bye bye

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## jm10

Daniel said:


> Sorry but who exactly brought this 'war' to the forum besides the people with a chip on their shoulder??? So I think you right let's get this over and done with. Nobody 'punted' clone free on the forum in fact it was kept OFF the forum for this exact reason BS politics. Funny enough right after I did my announcement of joining the initiative is the time I started getting trolled on my own review thread coincidence I think not.....
> 
> Put please stay 'United'...the rest of us will just carry on...I'm done with this BS topic and BS thread....



Well another reviewer did announce the clone free annotative so technically he did bring it here, we just stated it has no place here. 

I dunno why you are so angry, take a vape and chill, its a debate after all and grown men can have arguments and disagree. 

Also the united chirp was well received, viva vape familia


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## jm10

Ok guys lets try and be civil to one another without insults, this was a topic to clear the air and move on. 

We all have different opinions and thats great but people getting upset should not be the end game.

I think we have made it clear that i want peace between the two sides and i want to make this forum a place for learning and knowledge for new comers and oldies alike. 

We are vapers and quitting stinkies is goal, so lets try and keep that train of thought rolling without personal conquests. 


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## RenaldoRheeder

If nothing else, this proves that our community consist of a bunch of very passionate people. In the true spirit of the Rainbow Nation we are diverse in our opinions, likes and dislikes. Just like in many aspects of our Rainbow Nation, we do have a lot of work left in the area of accepting those differences and learning to tolerate. But we will get there. Until then at least we all agree on one thing: vaping is the way to go. So vape on. 


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## Slick

Thanks to all for making my Sunday less boring

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## jm10

Slick said:


> Thanks to all for making my Sunday less boring



Your very welcome, fun, laughs and a vape, what more could you ask for


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## BioHAZarD

Slick said:


> Thanks to all for making my Sunday less boring


i hope you had power to make some popcorn bud

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## jm10

RenaldoRheeder said:


> If nothing else, this proves that our community consist of a bunch of very passionate people. In the true spirit of the Rainbow Nation we are diverse in our opinions, likes and dislikes. Just like in many aspects of our Rainbow Nation, we do have a lot of work left in the area of accepting those differences and learning to tolerate. But we will get there. Until then at least we all agree on one thing: vaping is the way to go. So vape on.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



We love you to mr big heart 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 2


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## Slick

jm10 said:


> Your very welcome, fun, laughs and a vape, what more could you ask for
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Little more drama would've been nice but it's the weekend so I'm sure @BioHAZarD was spending some family time

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## BioHAZarD

Slick said:


> Little more drama would've been nice but it's the weekend so I'm sure @BioHAZarD was spending some family time


hahahahaha
i was actually ... normal service will resume

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> hahahahaha
> i was actually ... normal service will resume



Fun times indeed 


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Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Slick

BioHAZarD said:


> hahahahaha
> i was actually ... normal service will resume


If I ever buy a clone,I'm sending you the pic to post on the Vape Mail thread

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## BioHAZarD

Slick said:


> If I ever buy a clone,I'm sending you the pic to post on the Vape Mail thread


sure bud
always happy to help. apart from the billet box which i replaced with a authentic i dont think i have ever posted a clone in the vape mail thread.
darn it .... i only have the one clone

Reactions: Like 4


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## Armed

Hey guys. Very interesting discussions here. 
Someone mentioned generic medication,just want to put my 2c in.
Remember with medication, generic doesn't mean something untried,untested or unsafe. There are stringent test that go on behind the scenes by both the company bringing out the medication and by departments.
Most of the time generics are equal to the original.
Can't compare them to vaping products, with their lack of testing by oustid

Reactions: Like 5


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## Armed

Outside parties

Reactions: Like 3


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## Armed

Vaping wise, I personally don't mind what people use.
What I do mind are people that know it's a clone and selling it at the same price and not telling us it's fake.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 5


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## jm10

lesvaches said:


> lots



Missed this

Wow harsh man harsh, treat me like the guy who brings non alcoholic beer to a party why dont you.


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Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## BioHAZarD

Geeze i thought the internet was exploding .... was actually just @Constantbester doing the rounds.

must be the most lovable fellow around these parts

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 4


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> Geeze i thought the internet was exploding .... was actually just @Constantbester doing the rounds.
> 
> must be the most lovable fellow around these parts



Yeah his a big cuddly bear 


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## RichJB

jm10 said:


> You dont see spar customers fighting checkers customers because spar has a problem with checkers.



This. If some in the community feel an obligation to fight battles on behalf of vaping manufacturers, that is their decision. My approach is that it's not my business. I have no doubt that FMCG is a very dirty sector in which companies pull unethical dirty tricks on each other continually. When I walk into PnP with my trolley, I don't care. The items are on the shelf, they are legal, I'm going to buy the items that appeal to me, not the items that pass the ethical purity test.

I don't accept that HE companies are losing sales due to clones. As others have said, HE items sell out within 3.75 seconds of being offered on FB. They are not losing sales for the simple reason that they have no stock to sell. If they want to sell more products and make more money, maybe they should do larger production batches, such that mortals are able to access the item without having to know someone on the inside or winning a random draw on FB.

The companies who are losing sales due to clones are the budget OG companies like Vandy Vape, Wotofo, DigiFlavor, etc. They don't seem to have a problem with clones. And if they do, it's up to them to sort it out, not me. This is why regulation is required and why it exists in the first place. It's so that consumers don't need to worry about or get involved in these matters.

Reactions: Like 11 | Agree 5 | Winner 2


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## jm10

RichJB said:


> This. If some in the community feel an obligation to fight battles on behalf of vaping manufacturers, that is their decision. My approach is that it's not my business. I have no doubt that FMCG is a very dirty sector in which companies pull unethical dirty tricks on each other continually. When I walk into PnP with my trolley, I don't care. The items are on the shelf, they are legal, I'm going to buy the items that appeal to me, not the items that pass the ethical purity test.
> 
> I don't accept that HE companies are losing sales due to clones. As others have said, HE items sell out within 3.75 seconds of being offered on FB. They are not losing sales for the simple reason that they have no stock to sell. If they want to sell more products and make more money, maybe they should do larger production batches, such that mortals are able to access the item without having to know someone on the inside or winning a random draw on FB.
> 
> The companies who are losing sales due to clones are the budget OG companies like Vandy Vape, Wotofo, DigiFlavor, etc. They don't seem to have a problem with clones. And if they do, it's up to them to sort it out, not me. This is why regulation is required and why it exists in the first place. It's so that consumers don't need to worry about or get involved in these matters.



Exactly it has zero to do with us and the HE manufactures crying need to handle their own business.

Good point on vandy/wotofo......


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Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1


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## Chukin'Vape

This post is a clone of a discussion already had, so HE activists should not post here, otherwise they support cloning.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 4 | Funny 5


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## BioHAZarD

I am going to repeat myself here 

This discussion has nothing to do with whether clones are good or bad. On the other hand it also has nothing to do with whether authentic is good or bad.

The main point is that we as vapers want to be free to choose. If you want to punt exclusivity to a particular camp - do it elsewhere. If you want to market you allegiance to anything but fee choice then do it elsewhere.

If you want to vape and be happy doing it then by all means punt away 

Hopefully nobody see’s this as trolling. We can’t have that again. The space under the bridge is just getting sooooo crowded. I will however bully anyone that wants to be bullied. You just need to ask  Maybe even some folk that just deserve it 

CB

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 1


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> I am going to repeat myself here
> 
> This discussion has nothing to do with whether clones are good or bad. On the other hand it also has nothing to do with whether authentic is good or bad.
> 
> The main point is that we as vapers want to be free to choose. If you want to punt exclusivity to a particular camp - do it elsewhere. If you want to market you allegiance to anything but fee choice then do it elsewhere.
> 
> If you want to vape and be happy doing it then by all means punt away
> 
> Hopefully nobody see’s this as trolling. We can’t have that again. The space under the bridge is just getting sooooo crowded. I will however bully anyone that wants to be bullied. You just need to ask  Maybe even some folk that just deserve it
> 
> CB



Thank you for steering the train back onto the right track, we got caught up but you are right, freedom of choice was the whole point.

You seem to be very calm and the voice of reason now days and its freaking me out 


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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> Thank you for steering the train back onto the right track, we got caught up but you are right, freedom of choice was the whole point.
> 
> You seem to be very calm and the voice of reason now days and its freaking me out
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am a very calm, level headed person ... sometimes .... just sometimes there are situations/individuals that get under my skin a little and the devil comes out 

But don’t worry ... he is on standby

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 5


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## lesvaches

BioHAZarD said:


> I am going to repeat myself here
> 
> This discussion has nothing to do with whether clones are good or bad. On the other hand it also has nothing to do with whether authentic is good or bad.
> 
> The main point is that we as vapers want to be free to choose. If you want to punt exclusivity to a particular camp - do it elsewhere. If you want to market you allegiance to anything but fee choice then do it elsewhere.
> 
> If you want to vape and be happy doing it then by all means punt away
> 
> Hopefully nobody see’s this as trolling. We can’t have that again. The space under the bridge is just getting sooooo crowded. I will however bully anyone that wants to be bullied. You just need to ask  Maybe even some folk that just deserve it
> 
> CB


i didn’t ask for it but received it in abundance...

Reactions: Like 2


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## BioHAZarD

lesvaches said:


> i didn’t ask for it but received it in abundance...


From whom??

If it’s @jm10 i cant help you.... he does not listen to me

Reactions: Like 3


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## lesvaches



Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## jm10

lesvaches said:


>



That cow in your avatar always looks at me weirdly so pretty sure I’m the victim here. 


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## Clouds4Days

One and a half years down the line and we still debating about clones and overpriced gear. 



Feels like I'm watching(Reading) 'Days of our Lives' here. You can skip a whole year and the jump right back in and feels like you haven't missed a episode.
whhhhhhyyyy.....

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 4


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## jm10

Clouds4Days said:


> One and a half years down the line and we still debating about clones and overpriced gear.
> 
> 
> 
> Feels like I'm watching(Reading) 'Days of our Lives' here. You can skip a whole year and the jump right back in and feels like you haven't missed a episode.
> whhhhhhyyyy.....



Ground hog vape


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Reactions: Funny 6


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## M.Adhir

jm10 said:


> That cow in your avatar always looks at me weirdly so pretty sure I’m the victim here.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yeah, there was alot at steak, thats why

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 4


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## jm10

M.Adhir said:


> yeah, there was alot at steak, thats why



He just looks at me like “so we meat again” 


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## M.Adhir

jm10 said:


> He just looks at me like “so we meat again”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


*Dolly the Clone Sheep waves across the room and says Hi

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 3


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## SergioChasingClouds

jm10 said:


> He just looks at me like “so we meat again”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You guys beefing or what?

Reactions: Funny 7


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## Clouds4Days

What a lekker vape I'm having right now on my clone Dvarw MTL .




Then I got my clone Dvarw DL back at work which I love.
I must be honest I had a Authentic Dvarw DL which I sold and I get better flavour from my clone Dvarw DL. I think it's the sweet taste of not being ripped off

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 10 | Funny 7


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## BioHAZarD

Clouds4Days said:


> What a lekker vape I'm having right now on my clone Dvarw MTL .
> 
> View attachment 152868
> 
> 
> Then I got my clone Dvarw DL back at work which I love.
> I must be honest I had a Authentic Dvarw DL which I sold and I get better flavour from my clone Dvarw DL. I think it's the sweet taste of not being ripped off


Maybe you should give it to @Martin Narainsamy or @Daniel for a review. Bday special

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 3 | Funny 3


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## Clouds4Days

BioHAZarD said:


> Maybe you should give it to @Martin Narainsamy or @Daniel for a review. Bday special



Never I love them too much, Or maybe I should flip it at clone flipper price R500

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 4 | Funny 5


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> Maybe you should give it to @Martin Narainsamy or @Daniel for a review. Bday special



Its weird, i expected more voices about this opinion but it never happened, if someone reads this thread it may seem alittle one sided which we never wanted so please the no clone followers, the floor is yours.

Please remember we want a healthy debate and lets all keep calm about it. 

We dont want any resentment so speak your minds guys. 


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Clouds4Days said:


> I must be honest I had a Authentic Dvarw DL which I sold and I get better flavour from my clone Dvarw DL. I think it's the sweet taste of not being ripped off


That sweet taste is the cyanide in the composite metal the clones use.

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## Clouds4Days

Time for me to go eat some clone Wilards chips and drink some clone Pepsi.
Simba and Coka-Cola is to HE for me

Reactions: Funny 5 | Can relate 1


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## KZOR

Clouds4Days said:


> Or maybe I should flip it at clone flipper price R500


Now that was a bag of laughs. Rofl.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Funny 2


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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> That sweet taste is the cyanide in the composite metal the clones use.



Cant tell if you been sarcastic or not? 


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

jm10 said:


> Cant tell if you been sarcastic or not?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well if you saw my xmas tree going up in flames, surely you cant think Im a metallurgist

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## M.Adhir

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> That sweet taste is the cyanide in the composite metal the clones use.



I knew the taste was familiar. Had dinner at the in laws last week.

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## jm10

M.Adhir said:


> I knew the taste was familiar. Had dinner at the in laws last week.



 lmao


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## CaliGuy

I had a mining client a few years ago that spent hundred of thousands of rands investing in all sorts of document management and IP protection software to prevent their then patent pending drilling equipment from been cloned by the Chinese.

I’m talking electronic documents that self destruct after a certain period of time or not reaching the right sender etc.

All to have this client down the line finalize realize that they needed to move manufacturing to China which reduced costs and increased profits. Talk about going a full circle.

Which bring me to the point which has been pointed out by others on this thread. If HE manufacturers are only doing small production runs at high costs which equates to profit, would they not start realizing that they could have the cloners make there product for a fraction of the price, increase profit and increase supply whilst bring down the price all or meeting demands to increase sales.

There are several well know manufactures not based on China that sell limited product runs of products which are made China. I have personally experienced quility control issues for just such a device yet I paid HE pricing for some designed outside of China.

I don’t know, think this To Clone or Not To Clone all depends whos side you are. Me, I’m on my side I don’t think it’s cool to get ripped off just because some Company in-house product costs are too high because they are to small. If you making so much money, expand your operation!

Reactions: Like 4


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## zadiac

If everybody stops talking about this, it'll go away and we all can move on and vape.

Reactions: Like 5 | Optimistic 2


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## M.Adhir

*sent from my iPhone. Designed in California. Assembled in China.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2 | Funny 6


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## CaliGuy

Also this whole HE thing sometimes comes across as an elitist, mine is better than yours and it vapes so much better too.

I mean seriously, any ex smokers out there will recall that back then not once did you go around buying a pack of cigs that cost more than another brand and think to yourself, oh wow this so much better than that cheaper brand.

Nor did we frown on mates who smoked a cheap brand and shunned them for doing so.

At the end of the day vaping and smoking is much the same thing. We are all inhaling a foreign element into our lungs which is meant to inhale oxygen to keep us alive.

Both will take your money and until real long term medical studies prove vaping won’t kill you slowly, I’m still on the fence as to how safe vaping is. So this whole we must protect vaping to keep people off stinkess is also rather biased. Technical after vaping for a few months to quit smoking you should stop vaping too. Yet so few do because it’s “cool” to vape, and look at my nice shiny new vape, her let me post a pic of my authentic/clone so that more people can see how cool it is.

The only winner, the vaping manufactures if you ask me. Don’t recall cigarettes manufacturers doing this.

A lot more to think about then this whole clone vs authentic thing.

Reactions: Like 5


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## jm10

CaliGuy said:


> I had a mining client a few years ago that spent hundred of thousands of rands investing in all sorts of document management and IP protection software to prevent their then patent pending drilling equipment from been cloned by the Chinese.
> 
> I’m talking electronic documents that self destruct after a certain period of time or not reaching the right sender etc.
> 
> All to have this client down the line finalize realize that they needed to move manufacturing to China which reduced costs and increased profits. Talk about going a full circle.
> 
> Which bring me to the point which has been pointed out by others on this thread. If HE manufacturers are only doing small production runs at high costs which equates to profit, would they not start realizing that they could have the cloners make there product for a fraction of the price, increase profit and increase supply whilst being down the price all
> to increase sales.
> 
> There are several well know manufactures not based on China that sell limited product runs of products which are made China. I have personally experienced quility control issues for just such a device yet I paid HE pricing for some designed outside of China.
> 
> I don’t know, think this To Clone or Not To Clone all depends whos side you are. Me, I’m on my side I don’t think it’s cool to get ripped off just because some Company in-house product costs are too high because they are to small. If you making so much money, expand your operation!



I really dont mind paying HE prices but the stuff is so limited is like going to a casino hoping to win, well this is if your not in the right circles. 

Not everyone wants to be in these circles, we might buy only 1 HE product because we like it but the chances of us getting it is the luck of the draw, 

Its just crap, they are minimizing costs to maximise profit.

If i had clients banging on my door for my product i would invest in greater production equipment to increase output thus satisfying more people. 

How can they complain about cloning if they cannot supply enough people so they buy a clone in the mean time while they wait for their luck of the draw. Your client who wants to buy from you is turned away? Common now

People will argue the quality and finishes of a product, trust me when i say this, there are plenty ways to achieve this high standard with the type of machinery we have now days.


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## jm10

M.Adhir said:


> *sent from my iPhone. Designed in California. Assembled in China.



You’re killing it today i see


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Daniel said:


> I really don't get all the hooh hah about all of this...plain and simple you want to buy clones be my guest but don't come up with all this hogwash about can't afford it or want to try it out.....own it and move on.
> 
> I used clones as well (before anyone comments on that again lol) and they were OK but it was a conscious decision I made personally to support a worthy cause. I don't think I'm better than anyone else or look down on so called clone buyers lol that's some BS some ppl are trying to use to justify their trolling other forumites.
> 
> I don't know where anyone gets the idea that they get looked down on or get trolled for using or showing clones on the forum please someone show me the proof....so this whole fiasco is a load of crap and I think the people that started this should be ashamed especially going on about how this so called 'elitism' is causing a divide yet THEY are the ones causing it with their own insecurities and issues.....
> 
> Aaaaaand let the trolling begin lol.....gotto love the ignore button



Just tell me something, maybe Im totally confused, then I apologize.

But arent you trying to clone the Vaping bogan?
The Vaping bogan TVB
The Vaping bru TVB

Both swear in their reviews?
Both drink beer?

Or were you first and he cloned you?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 4


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## jm10

zadiac said:


> If everybody stops talking about this, it'll go away and we all can move on and vape.



I misread your post, thought you said

“Ill go away and we all can move on and vape”




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## BioHAZarD

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Just tell me something, maybe Im totally confused, then I apologize.
> 
> But arent you trying to clone the Vaping bogan?
> The Vaping bogan TVB
> The Vaping bru TVB
> 
> Both swear in their reviews?
> Both drink beer?
> 
> Or were you first and he cloned you?


LMAO
was wondering if someone was gonna mention that

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Just tell me something, maybe Im totally confused, then I apologize.
> 
> But arent you trying to clone the Vaping bogan?
> The Vaping bogan TVB
> The Vaping bru TVB
> 
> Both swear in their reviews?
> Both drink beer?
> 
> Or were you first and he cloned you?



Your on fire tonight aswell


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## SmokeyJoe

Ok this thread is starting to get personal instead of just playful banter.
Im out.

Reactions: Like 2


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## jm10

SmokeyJoe said:


> Ok this thread is starting to get personal instead of just playful banter.
> Im out.



This thread was over a while ago, we are just here for the laughs now. 

We never got a proper response from the other side so it ended a long way up. 

But the end result is in our favour so its all good. 


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## BioHAZarD

The really BIG question now is are we all trolls on our own thread?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

SmokeyJoe said:


> Ok this thread is starting to get personal instead of just playful banter.
> Im out.


Nothing personal, we discussing clones and stealing other people's intellectual property

Reactions: Funny 3


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> The really BIG question now is are we all trolls on our own thread?



Think we should have a vote, 
Lets meet under the bridge and see


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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> Think we should have a vote,
> Lets meet under the bridge and see
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


haha
i'm not putting up the poll ... it just gets deleted

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## CaliGuy

Even me, thought this was a open thread to discuss our opinions and thoughts. Not aimed at getting one up on someone else or anything along those lines.

Sometimes putting things down in writing and sharing allows one insight into your own thoughts on a subject, also good to get feedback from others because everyone has a tendency to think I’m right or we want to know, am I looking at this from the right angle.

This thread has been insightful, plus it helped me get to know everyone that contributed a little better.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## CaliGuy

And the man of the match has to go to @Jean claude Vaaldamme

I have to commend you and also say thanks for some good laughs. I have really enjoy all your posts and threads and following your journey since you joined.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## lesvaches

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Nothing personal, we discussing clones and stealing other people's intellectual property


using inferior and dangerous content

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

CaliGuy said:


> And the man of the match has to go to @Jean claude Vaaldamme
> 
> I have to commend you and also say thanks for some good laughs. I have really enjoy all your posts and threads and following your journey since you joined.



Thanks, I will share my itellectual property with everyone.
Klippies and Kingsley Cola(Coke clone)

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Funny 2


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## M.Adhir

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Thanks, I will share my itellectual property with everyone.
> Klippies and Kingsley Cola(Coke clone)



Tastes way better than coke does, that thing. 
Ps have you read about the blindfolded coke / pepsi test a few years ago

Reactions: Like 2


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## lesvaches

Deep fried potato slices, seasoned with salt and vinegar to taste, a great “chips” clone, perfect high carb snack

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

M.Adhir said:


> Tastes way better than coke does, that thing.
> Ps have you read about the blindfolded coke / pepsi test a few years ago


Nope will google.
But what I do know is that Kingsley Ginger Ale is better than the authentic

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## M.Adhir

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Nope will google.
> But what I do know is that Kingsley Ginger Ale is better than the authentic


I go through a case of Kingsley Ginger Ale every month. So yeah, have to agree. Winner for days. 
Maybe the really old Krest used to be as good, but that was decades ago.

Reactions: Like 2


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## jm10

CaliGuy said:


> And the man of the match has to go to @Jean claude Vaaldamme
> 
> I have to commend you and also say thanks for some good laughs. I have really enjoy all your posts and threads and following your journey since you joined.



Man of the match will always be @BioHAZarD , I’m sure his due his Nobel soon enough to. 


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## jm10

M.Adhir said:


> I go through a case of Kingsley Ginger Ale every month. So yeah, have to agree. Winner for days.
> Maybe the really old Krest used to be as good, but that was decades ago.



Thanks for sharing 


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## M.Adhir

jm10 said:


> Thanks for sharing
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol. Pull in. Bring a torch, there's loadshedding this side of the river.

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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> Man of the match will always be @BioHAZarD , I’m sure his due his Nobel soon enough to.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LMAO

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## jm10

M.Adhir said:


> Lol. Pull in. Bring a torch, there's loadshedding this side of the river.



Sitting in the dark here to 


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## M.Adhir

jm10 said:


> Sitting in the dark here to
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thank Huawei for backup batteries on their routers. Wonder if they copied anyone to make it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## jm10

M.Adhir said:


> I thank Huawei for backup batteries on their routers. Wonder if they copied anyone to make it.



Im grateful for mifi routers, rain and telkom mobile in these dark times(pun intended) oh and my power banks and laptops and hard drives.

Reactions: Like 2


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## M.Adhir

jm10 said:


> Im grateful for mifi routers, rain and telkom mobile in these dark times(pun intended) oh and my power banks and laptops and hard drives.


Long as I have the gas stove for tea. And batteries for internet. I may just survive.

Reactions: Like 2


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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> Man of the match will always be @BioHAZarD , I’m sure his due his Nobel soon enough to.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


no ways guys all u

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## BioHAZarD

Who needs power when you can vape and talk k@k with some good mates.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> Who needs power when you can vape and talk k@k with some good mates.



Absolutely

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Raindance

So is this fight about production overruns and plausible quality rejects being sold off cheaply under different brand names now finally been put to rest?

Now lets find another topic to "debate". By the way, these HE manufacturers all pay royalties to the Chinese inventor of vaping right?

Regards

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 2


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## Christos

BioHAZarD said:


> Who needs power when you can vape and talk k@k with some good mates.


I thought you were having a meeting under the bridge

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## BioHAZarD

Raindance said:


> So is this fight about production overruns and plausible quality rejects being sold off cheaply under different brand names now finally been put to rest?
> 
> Now lets find another topic to "debate". By the way, these HE manufacturers all pay royalties to the Chinese inventor of vaping right?
> 
> Regards


Open to suggestions

Reactions: Like 3


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## jm10

Christos said:


> I thought you were having a meeting under the bridge



Load shedding so we postponed the meeting.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

Christos said:


> I thought you were having a meeting under the bridge


No man buddy. U gotta keep up. We on a new topic already. Troll council has ended

Reactions: Like 2


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## RichJB

Raindance said:


> By the way, these HE manufacturers all pay royalties to the Chinese inventor of vaping right?



They'd have to pay big tobacco, seeing as they bought Hon Lik's patent from him. I don't think Dino of Velocity got any royalties from any manufacturers (HE or LE) who swiped his Velocity deck for their designs, nor Goon from anybody who took their clamp design. Let's just say that it's an industry where most people borrow to greater or lesser degrees.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 7 | Informative 1


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## Christos

jm10 said:


> Load shedding so we postponed the meeting.


What a pity. I had my bag full of suprises ready but it was just me and the regular 'bergie' under the bridge.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## jm10

RichJB said:


> They'd have to pay big tobacco, seeing as they bought Hon Lik's patent from him. I don't think Dino of Velocity got any royalties from any manufacturers (HE or LE) who swiped his Velocity deck for their designs, nor Goon from anybody who took their clamp design. Let's just say that it's an industry where most people borrow to greater or lesser degrees.



I like that you speak in Facts

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


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## jm10

Christos said:


> What a pity. I had my bag full of suprises ready but it was just me and the regular 'bergie' under the bridge.



I promise we will make this up to you, plus who can resist surprises 

Dont sit to close to the bergie, he has a toe fetish

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Resistance

CaliGuy said:


> I had a mining client a few years ago that spent hundred of thousands of rands investing in all sorts of document management and IP protection software to prevent their then patent pending drilling equipment from been cloned by the Chinese.
> 
> I’m talking electronic documents that self destruct after a certain period of time or not reaching the right sender etc.
> 
> All to have this client down the line finalize realize that they needed to move manufacturing to China which reduced costs and increased profits. Talk about going a full circle.
> 
> Which bring me to the point which has been pointed out by others on this thread. If HE manufacturers are only doing small production runs at high costs which equates to profit, would they not start realizing that they could have the cloners make there product for a fraction of the price, increase profit and increase supply whilst bring down the price all or meeting demands to increase sales.
> 
> There are several well know manufactures not based on China that sell limited product runs of products which are made China. I have personally experienced quility control issues for just such a device yet I paid HE pricing for some designed outside of China.
> 
> I don’t know, think this To Clone or Not To Clone all depends whos side you are. Me, I’m on my side I don’t think it’s cool to get ripped off just because some Company in-house product costs are too high because they are to small. If you making so much money, expand your operation!


That's what I said.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Christos

jm10 said:


> I promise we will make this up to you, plus who can resist surprises
> 
> Dont sit to close to the bergie, he has a toe fetish


He got that from me and has also picked up a new fetish....

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

Christos said:


> He got that from me and has also picked up a new fetish....


Guys please don't get @Christos started. He will annihilate us all with his insults. The man Is legend when it comes to that. Add a G&T into the mix and he becomes downright dirty

Reactions: Like 3


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## Christos

BioHAZarD said:


> Guys please don't get @Christos started. He will annihilate us all with his insults. The man Is legend when it comes to that. Add a G&T into the mix and he becomes downright dirty


Who needs G&T when the "bergie" has connections??

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## jm10

Christos said:


> He got that from me and has also picked up a new fetish....



Ok guys this got PG18 real fast

I vote the next topic be on @Christos and his fetishes and why he goes by the name mr grey on the street

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

Christos said:


> Who needs G&T when the "bergie" has connections??


Haha
At least I can still drink your wimpy ass under the table Mr G&T

Reactions: Like 3


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> Guys please don't get @Christos started. He will annihilate us all with his insults. The man Is legend when it comes to that. Add a G&T into the mix and he becomes downright dirty



Common please, we wanna have fun, just 5 more minutes please

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Christos

jm10 said:


> Ok guys this got PG18 real fast
> 
> I vote the next topic be on @Christos and his fetishes and why he goes by the name mr grey on the street


Firstly, its Papa Grey.
Secondly, as you are well aware, i need no introduction.


BioHAZarD said:


> Haha
> At least I can still drink your wimpy ass under the table Mr G&T


I vote for an official challenge here. Tabs on you.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

Christos said:


> Firstly, its Papa Grey.
> Secondly, as you are well aware, i need
> 
> I vote for an official challenge here. Tabs on you.


Hey u the one with connections. Make a plan

Reactions: Like 2


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## BioHAZarD

@Daniel 
@Martin Narainsamy

U guys welcome to join in the merriment eh

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Christos

BioHAZarD said:


> Hey u the one with connections. Make a plan


You need to spend more time with the bergie. He doesnt like G&T. Also he doesnt take well to non paying customers either....

Reactions: Like 2


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> @Daniel
> @Martin Narainsamy
> 
> U guys welcome to join in the merriment eh

Reactions: Funny 6


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## BioHAZarD

Christos said:


> You need to spend more time with the bergie. He doesnt like G&T. Also he doesnt take well to non paying customers either....


U have to pay him back in kind? That must have sucked

Reactions: Like 2


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> U have to pay him back in kind? That must have sucked



And popcorn ready....

Reactions: Like 3


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## Raindance

BioHAZarD said:


> U have to pay him back in kind? That must have sucked



At least he did not leave on an empty stomach...

...

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3 | Funny 7


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## BioHAZarD

Raindance said:


> At least he did not leave on an empty stomach...
> 
> ...


Thought we lost u there @Raindance

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Resistance

Raindance said:


> So is this fight about production overruns and plausible quality rejects being sold off cheaply under different brand names now finally been put to rest?
> 
> Now lets find another topic to "debate". By the way, these HE manufacturers all pay royalties to the Chinese inventor of vaping right?
> 
> Regards


Welcome back

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Thanks 1


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## BioHAZarD

Come back @SmokeyJoe it's really personal now

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> View attachment 152887


Just let me know when they back. They are still on my ignore list.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Resistance

jm10 said:


> And popcorn ready....


Upgrade... that biltong and beers

Reactions: Like 2


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> Just let me know when they back. They are still on my ignore list.



Dont worry you’ll know

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## jm10

Resistance said:


> Upgrade... that biltong and beers



Dude seriously, its 10pm and you making hungry and thirsty now

Reactions: Like 3


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## Christos

Raindance said:


> At least he did not leave on an empty stomach...
> 
> ...


Fibre content was also a bonus. Im just painting a picture here.... you know when you see a bearded man with food sediment in his beard???
Similar concept

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 3


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## jm10

Christos said:


> Fibre content was also a bonus. Im just painting a picture here.... you know when you see a bearded man with food sediment in his beard???
> Similar concept



Well there goes a good night sleep

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1 | Can relate 1


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## Christos

jm10 said:


> Well there goes a good night sleep


" magie vol ogies toe "

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## jm10

Christos said:


> " magie vol ogies toe "



Jeez why do you hate me all of a sudden‍ and now I’m not hungry

Reactions: Like 3 | Optimistic 1


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## Gringo

Seeing that most of you went to bed with a " Bergie " drunk and fed... 
Here is a question from a noob, that needs to understand.
Why if it so important to own a HE device, do you need to be " accepted " in to the inner circle ( facebook groups and more by invitation only ) to be able to buy one ?
Im not bashing here, just need to understand...surely making the stuff easily available, will allow for more sales and competition with all the clones ?
After all its just a piece of device used to inhale stuff in to your lungs, not the Mafia ....

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 2


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## jm10

Gringo said:


> not the Mafia ....



Ssshhh bud, we dont use the M word around here, remember John? Noooo none of us do anymore.......

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 9


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## Gringo

jm10 said:


> Ssshhh bud, we dont use the M word around here, remember John? Noooo none of us do anymore.......


Hahaha sorry... just saying.... now that is a " DEVICE " we surly know, is going to get you killed.

Reactions: Like 2


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## jm10

Gringo said:


> Hahaha sorry... just saying.... now that is a " DEVICE " we surly know, is going to get you killed.



Can i tell you honestly why i bought a few expensive rda/rtas...well i thought if spent alittle bit more i would get the best flavour on the market, yeah not always true

I think @M.Adhir will concur with me that you’ll find a combo suited to you thats no were near HE

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## CeeJay

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Nothing personal, we discussing clones and stealing other people's intellectual property


This started out a Clone discussion and now moved to HE vs LE.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

CeeJay said:


> This started out a Clone discussion and now moved to HE vs LE.


Actually it started out as a pro choice discussion and has devolved down into anything goes.
More like a silly season thread

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## jm10

CeeJay said:


> This started out a Clone discussion and now moved to HE vs LE.



Hahaha

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gringo

CeeJay said:


> This started out a Clone discussion and now moved to HE vs LE.


To me it is sort of related.... i think because it is mostly the cloned HE that people buy. Most people do not mind buying a authentic intake,zeuse and more, due to availability and price.

But that is just my take on it...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## KZOR

Just amazes me how outspoken certain individuals can be when they surrounded by like-minded people but as soon as a platform is created where they can debate their point with cognitive diversity then they either bail or never step up to the plate.
I would honestly love to hear their thoughts as it might have the slight chance to convince me to change my mind.
My decisions are primarily based on pro's outweighing cons so please can we get more points from the NCZ members.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## BioHAZarD

KZOR said:


> Just amazes me how outspoken certain individuals can be when they surrounded by like-minded people but as soon as a platform is created where they debate their point with cognitive diversity then they either bail or never step up to the plate.
> I would honestly love to hear their thoughts as it might have the slight chance to convince me to change my mind.
> My decisions are primarily based on pro's outweighing cons so please can we get more points from the NCZ members.


we did ask them to play with 
in a very nice manner

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## BioHAZarD

Points up for discussion

1. Is there any proof that clones are made with inferior/hazardous materials. actual proof 
2. How can the assumption be made that clones negatively impact authentic sales by such a huge margin. here i honestly think the vendors are their own worst enemy by bombarding the market with new product continuously which for the most part is not innovative or revolutionary and just creates hype which for the most part is fake.
3. HE runs where sales are being taken away. Those runs never have left over stock. 
xxxxxxx any other points to be added?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## baksteen8168

CaliGuy said:


> .
> 
> Which bring me to the point which has been pointed out by others on this thread. If HE manufacturers are only doing small production runs at high costs which equates to profit, would they not start realizing that they could have the cloners make there product for a fraction of the price, increase profit and increase supply whilst bring down the price all or meeting demands to increase sales.
> 
> There are several well know manufactures not based on China that sell limited product runs of products which are made China. I have personally experienced quility control issues for just such a device yet I paid HE pricing for some designed outside of China.
> 
> I don’t know, think this To Clone or Not To Clone all depends whos side you are. Me, I’m on my side I don’t think it’s cool to get ripped off just because some Company in-house product costs are too high because they are to small. If you making so much money, expand your operation!



My thoughts exactly. Well put @CaliGuy 

While I agree that stealing someone's IP isn't right, I also feel that by charging those ridiculous prices for HE gear that they are just asking for someone else to clone it. I get that R&D needs to be factored into the end price, but there is no way that it costs R20 000 to make that item.

Reactions: Like 2


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## jm10

The hell? We went full circle

Reactions: Funny 4


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## jm10

KZOR said:


> Just amazes me how outspoken certain individuals can be when they surrounded by like-minded people but as soon as a platform is created where they debate their point with cognitive diversity then they either bail or never step up to the plate.
> I would honestly love to hear their thoughts as it might have the slight chance to convince me to change my mind.
> My decisions are primarily based on pro's outweighing cons so please can we get more points from the NCZ members.



I dont start, pick or want fights so i just sit in the dark, I’m a good guy that doesn’t ruffle the feathers unless it is called for but even then I’m extremely tame. 

I prefer a debate with facts so there can be no emotion but the other side always seems to get super emotional.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> I dont start, pick or want fights so i just sit in the dark, I’m a good guy that doesn’t ruffle the feathers unless it is called for but even then I’m extremely tame.
> 
> I prefer a debate with facts so there can be no emotion but the other side always seems to get super emotional.


since when?
damn we are soooo not friends anymore

Reactions: Funny 4


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## baksteen8168

Raindance said:


> At least he did not leave on an empty stomach...
> 
> ...



Thanks @Raindance . I'll be sticking to my diet today as that comment almost made me lose my breakfast




jm10 said:


> The hell? We went full circle



Hey, I only caught up now

Reactions: Funny 4


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## BioHAZarD

@Dela Rey Steyn ... how was GNR?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## baksteen8168

BioHAZarD said:


> @Dela Rey Steyn ... how was GNR?


Just had a thought.

When GNR (or any band for that matter) performs live, aren't they cloning their own music?

Reactions: Funny 5


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## BioHAZarD

baksteen8168 said:


> Just had a thought.
> 
> When GNR (or any band for that matter) performs live, aren't they cloning their own music?


i c your title description is totally correct 

probably only applicable to a cover band

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Dela Rey Steyn

BioHAZarD said:


> @Dela Rey Steyn ... how was GNR?



Wonderboom was Epic, G&R was Insane! Venue and Parking was a complete cluster-**** of note, and the R50 beer doesn't taste any better than a normal beer...  But would go and see it again in a heartbeat, Slash still kills it on the axe

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## BioHAZarD

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Wonderboom was Epic, G&R was Insane! Venue and Parking was a complete cluster-**** of note, and the R50 beer doesn't taste any better than a normal beer...  But would go and see it again in a heartbeat, Slash still kills it on the axe


awesome buddy
did they actually complete the show

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Dela Rey Steyn

hmmmm.. the form censored my comment?

but as long as you abrv the mofo out of it, your fine...

Reactions: Funny 4


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## baksteen8168

BioHAZarD said:


> i c your title description is totally correct
> 
> probably only applicable to a cover band



I hear you, but think of it this way. When the song was recorded, the band was in a sound proof studio with specialized equipment to record all the sounds. At a live concert, the music wont be exactly the same as the recording (so it's not 1:1) and the live sound equipment won't be able to cater as well as the equipment in a closed studio (so this could possibly refer to "inferior materials"  )

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## Dela Rey Steyn

BioHAZarD said:


> did they actually complete the show



Hells yes! even did 2 encores!

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Funny 1


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> since when?
> damn we are soooo not friends anymore



Im very nice thats why i wanted to chat to @Martin Narainsamy , I’m sure he can see I’m a very approachable person and his input was vital here. You guys should give him a chance to speak his mind. 

He voiced his opinion and got shut down which is not right, so i say give him a proper chance so maybe just maybe we could see some errors in our ways?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Humbolt

KZOR said:


> Just amazes me how outspoken certain individuals can be when they surrounded by like-minded people but as soon as a platform is created where they debate their point with cognitive diversity then they either bail or never step up to the plate.
> I would honestly love to hear their thoughts as it might have the slight chance to convince me to change my mind.
> My decisions are primarily based on pro's outweighing cons so please can we get more points from the NCZ members.


Too true. I buy what I can afford. I have never and probably will never buy any HE gear, I cannot justify spending R5k+ for a mech mod for example. If I have R150 to spare for a clone RDA from china, then I will. As @BioHAZarD stated a few times, it's about pro-choice. Granted, some of the HE gear is absolutely beautiful to look at, and if you can afford it then by all means its your choice. You do you and let others do themselves.

Reactions: Like 4


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## BioHAZarD

Humbolt said:


> Too true. I buy what I can afford. I have never and probably will never buy any HE gear, I cannot justify spending R5k+ for a mech mod for example. If I have R150 to spare for a clone RDA from china, then I will. As @BioHAZarD stated a few times, it's about pro-choice. Granted, some of the HE gear is absolutely beautiful to look at, and if you can afford it then by all means its your choice. You do you and let others do themselves.


Just make sure u get some pills from @M.Adhir

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Humbolt

BioHAZarD said:


> Just make sure u get some pills from @M.Adhir


Original or generic? This is of extreme impotence

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

Humbolt said:


> Original or generic? This is of extreme impotence


definitely an original clone

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## jm10

Humbolt said:


> Too true. I buy what I can afford. I have never and probably will never buy any HE gear, I cannot justify spending R5k+ for a mech mod for example. If I have R150 to spare for a clone RDA from china, then I will. As @BioHAZarD stated a few times, it's about pro-choice. Granted, some of the HE gear is absolutely beautiful to look at, and if you can afford it then by all means its your choice. You do you and let others do themselves.



I buy mostly based on looks, if i could afford a shelf full of HE i would because most HE mods are just beautiful. 

Its human nature to want the best and most beautiful but in the real world you may only be able to get a beer goggle 5/ 5 and a half.

Reactions: Like 3


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## lesvaches

so on the matter of clones, who's putting up a real tree and who's putting up a fake this year and why?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 6


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## jm10

lesvaches said:


> so on the matter of clones, who's putting up a real tree and who's putting up a fake this year and why?




 

I dont normally do trees but since my son enjoys lights and tearing shit to pieces i may put one up

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> I dont normally do trees but since my son enjoys lights and tearing shit to pieces i may put one up


Gotta have a tree buddy

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Dela Rey Steyn

If I don't put up a tree, what are my cats going to tear down and molest until New Years?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## M.Adhir

lesvaches said:


> so on the matter of clones, who's putting up a real tree and who's putting up a fake this year and why?


been growing my tree since June. Should cure in time for the 25th. High High High. oops. i mean Ho Ho Ho.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3 | Funny 4


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## BioHAZarD

M.Adhir said:


> been growing my tree since June. Should cure in time for the 25th. High High High. oops. i mean Ho Ho Ho.


is that an original or a cloned strain

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## SmokeyJoe

jm10 said:


> I buy mostly based on looks, if i could afford a shelf full of HE i would because most HE mods are just beautiful.



Thats the same logic i use when looking for prostitutes

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 8


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> Gotta have a tree buddy



Yeah i know, gotta start doing it again, its been in storage for a few years now, never had the patients to untangle the lights so just out it of from then. 

Just gonna go out and buy new stuff this weekend, Game had awesome ones last year.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## jm10

SmokeyJoe said:


> Thats the same logic i use when looking for prostitutes



Dont we all

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## jm10

M.Adhir said:


> the seeds were very Kushy. some were Hazy.. thats all im saying lol.



Ill be at your place around Christmas to pick up my tree/trees

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## HvNDhF

Just been to a shop at a fleamarket. 

Jam Monstert 120ml for R60.

Their excuse is they need to clear stock because of new regulations regarding some sort of warning that needs to be on the bottles.....

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 3


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## RichJB

BioHAZarD said:


> 1. Is there any proof that clones are made with inferior/hazardous materials. actual proof



I can accept that clones are made with lower grade stainless steel. I don't think the vapour cares what sort of metal it comes into contact with. The vape will be the same and the metal will outlast the atty anyway. People generally only use atties for six months or so before moving on. I see no reason to have build quality that will sustain for twenty years when vape gear is essentially disposable items. When I smoked, I used a Bic lighter, not a gold-plated Cartier. I used the cheap cardboard box the cigs came in, not some fancy platinum case from Dunhill. It's a drug addiction, I want to spend as little as possible on it.

As to safety, I see no difference. Vaping accidents are overwhelmingly caused by batteries, not by devices. A battery with torn wraps and a missing insulator ring is just as hazardous in a R5k HE mech as it is in a R400 clone.

I think the safety argument is falsely perpetuated by some manufacturers to justify the higher prices of their products. We had exactly the same thing in the juice sector initially, with some claiming that "DIY bathtub juice" is hazardous to your health. It manifestly isn't. Sorted.



BioHAZarD said:


> 2. How can the assumption be made that clones negatively impact authentic sales by such a huge margin.



Dino from Velocity said he didn't think clones impacted his sales much, if at all. It makes absolutely no sense that a vaper who buys a R300 clone will pay R1500 for an OG if that R300 clone isn't available. He will instead go up one notch and buy a R400-500 OG budget atty from Vandy Vape et al.

It could be argued that HE and clone manufacturers are in fundamentally different businesses. The clone guys are in consumer retail where high volume and low profit (competitiveness) are keys to success. The HE guys are in the collector segment where rarity/exclusivity are key. So it's like comparing an original Versace ball gown with a Mr Price T-shirt. They might both be classified as clothing but it's completely different market sectors. Mr Price ripping off a Diesel design isn't going to affect Diesel sales because Mr Price customers don't buy Diesel and never will. Again, I'm in the Mr Price segment. Clothing is a functional everyday item. Paying R1400 for a T-shirt just doesn't make sense to me.

That said, those who are willing to pay high fashion prices for clothes or HE prices for vaping gear have nothing but my best wishes and goodwill. It's not that I don't have anything against it, it's that I actively prefer it. Diversity and freedom of choice are inherently healthy. If nobody liked HE gear or was willing to pay for it, the vaping community would be the poorer for it. Not just poorer financially but also poorer in terms of innovation, choice, scope, diversity, vibrancy, opportunity. These are key indicators in any sector.

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 1 | Winner 7


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## KZOR

@RichJB ....... i love a man with common sense. Well said. 
I think the "Pro-choice" folk have covered all the bases so if the NCZ individuals still choose to not respond then they can rightfully shove their concerns up into a place where the sun don't shine.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 6 | Thanks 1


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## lesvaches

jm10 said:


> Yeah i know, gotta start doing it again, its been in storage for a few years now, never had the patients to untangle the lights so just out it of from then.
> 
> Just gonna go out and buy new stuff this weekend, Game had awesome ones last year.


that’s why they invented china town. just make sure you get a certificate of authenticity, we wouldn’t want china to sue.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## BioHAZarD

RichJB said:


> I can accept that clones are made with lower grade stainless steel. I don't think the vapour cares what sort of metal it comes into contact with. The vape will be the same and the metal will outlast the atty anyway. People generally only use atties for six months or so before moving on. I see no reason to have build quality that will sustain for twenty years when vape gear is essentially disposable items. When I smoked, I used a Bic lighter, not a gold-plated Cartier. I used the cheap cardboard box the cigs came in, not some fancy platinum case from Dunhill. It's a drug addiction, I want to spend as little as possible on it.
> 
> As to safety, I see no difference. Vaping accidents are overwhelmingly caused by batteries, not by devices. A battery with torn wraps and a missing insulator ring is just as hazardous in a R5k HE mech as it is in a R400 clone.
> 
> I think the safety argument is falsely perpetuated by some manufacturers to justify the higher prices of their products. We had exactly the same thing in the juice sector initially, with some claiming that "DIY bathtub juice" is hazardous to your health. It manifestly isn't. Sorted.
> 
> 
> 
> Dino from Velocity said he didn't think clones impacted his sales much, if at all. It makes absolutely no sense that a vaper who buys a R300 clone will pay R1500 for an OG if that R300 clone isn't available. He will instead go up one notch and buy a R400-500 OG budget atty from Vandy Vape et al.
> 
> It could be argued that HE and clone manufacturers are in fundamentally different businesses. The clone guys are in consumer retail where high volume and low profit (competitiveness) are keys to success. The HE guys are in the collector segment where rarity/exclusivity are key. So it's like comparing an original Versace ball gown with a Mr Price T-shirt. They might both be classified as clothing but it's completely different market sectors. Mr Price ripping off a Diesel design isn't going to affect Diesel sales because Mr Price customers don't buy Diesel and never will. Again, I'm in the Mr Price segment. Clothing is a functional everyday item. Paying R1400 for a T-shirt just doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> That said, those who are willing to pay high fashion prices for clothes or HE prices for vaping gear have nothing but my best wishes and goodwill. It's not that I don't have anything against it, it's that I actively prefer it. Diversity and freedom of choice are inherently healthy. If nobody liked HE gear or was willing to pay for it, the vaping community would be the poorer for it. Not just poorer financially but also poorer in terms of innovation, choice, scope, diversity, vibrancy, opportunity. These are key indicators in any sector.


@RichJB well said!!
if you wanted to stretch the argument a little further you could actually argue that clones are good for the normal consumer market (VV, Wotofo, etc) in that a vaper would rather pay R450 - R600 for a normal authentic than say R450 for the clone of a authentic HE product. (there are obviously certain exceptions)

I have yet to come across a scenario where there are an abundance of HE product becoz the clones took the market. I think it is actually more a case that the HE manufacturers need to wake up and realize that they cant punt their products at such ridiculous prices when the mainstream is not so far behind in terms of quality for a fraction of the price.

Clones imo will never take food off the table of a HE manufacturer. They just don't have the size to compete and they are serving different markets. Bottom line they are just not geared to serve a larger market.

Reactions: Like 5


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## jm10

lesvaches said:


> that’s why they invented china town. just make sure you get a certificate of authenticity, we wouldn’t want china to sue.



Stuff that I’m going HE on a tree, bark is gonna be Juma

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 4


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## BioHAZarD

lesvaches said:


> that’s why they invented china town. just make sure you get a certificate of authenticity, we wouldn’t want china to sue.


what's China town?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> They only want to be righteous pricks in their own review threads so that they can run to mommy when someone says something that is not nice or hurts their feelings. Or they go and moan on Youtube about it like a bunch of immature brats.



Best video i have ever watched

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## lesvaches

BioHAZarD said:


> what's China town?


http://www.chinatownsa.co.za

Reactions: Like 2 | Thanks 1


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## jm10

lesvaches said:


> http://www.chinatownsa.co.za



In a few years SA will be china town, better brush up on your mandarin guys

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## M.Adhir

jm10 said:


> In a few years SA will be china town, better brush up on your mandarin guys


i personally prefer naartjies. or lemons, with tequila.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## M.Adhir

jm10 said:


> Stuff that I’m going HE on a tree, bark is gonna be Juma


With ultem polished balls.

*not Polish balls, thats for a different kind of tree

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 5


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## jm10

M.Adhir said:


> With ultem polished balls.
> 
> *not Polish balls, thats for a different kind of tree




And a Tikron star

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Dela Rey Steyn

if only Wish wasn't so kak....

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## jm10

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> View attachment 152930
> 
> if only Wish wasn't so kak....



Its not, its just slow with SAPO

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Dela Rey Steyn

Looks legit...

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Dela Rey Steyn

jm10 said:


> Its not, its just slow with SAPO



Slow is an understatement, the misses is still waiting for goods she ordered in Jan....

Reactions: Like 2 | Can relate 1


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## jm10

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Looks legit...
> 
> View attachment 152931

Reactions: Like 2


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## jm10

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Slow is an understatement, the misses is still waiting for goods she ordered in Jan....



My MIL is still waiting from June i think, i pay for all her wish stuff and if she hasn’t received it after a while we just request a refund. Becareful not to ask for refunds all the time because they flag you as a chancer and your account goes bye bye, cant use any of the old details on your new account.

Reactions: Like 2


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## SergioChasingClouds

jm10 said:


> Best video i have ever watched



@jm10 please could you direct me to this video? I feel like I missed the whole party...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## BioHAZarD

SergioChasingClouds said:


> @jm10 please could you direct me to this video? I feel like I missed the whole party...

Reactions: Like 3 | Thanks 4


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## SergioChasingClouds

Such anger!

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Bulldog

Well I hate clones because I was duped


Found out this is no Vicious Ant

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3 | Funny 11


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## Dela Rey Steyn

Bulldog said:


> Well I hate clones because I was duped
> View attachment 152936
> 
> Found out this is no Vicious Ant



Looks pretty damn vicious to me...

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 5


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## jm10

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Looks pretty damn vicious to me...



agreed

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Dela Rey Steyn

Bulldog said:


> Well I hate clones because I was duped
> View attachment 152936
> 
> Found out this is no Vicious Ant



Did they at least supply a Vape Leash with that "Bal Byter" Mod? Because Clones don't come with the OG leash kit...

Reactions: Funny 3


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## BioHAZarD

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Did they at least supply a Vape Leash with that "Bal Byter" Mod? Because Clones don't come with the OG leash kit...

Reactions: Funny 3


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## baksteen8168

BioHAZarD said:


>




That was all over the place, but thoroughly entertaining.  

Keep them coming @Daniel

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Bulldog

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Did they at least supply a Vape Leash with that "Bal Byter" Mod? Because Clones don't come with the OG leash kit...


They sure did @Dela Rey Steyn that's why I thought it was genuine.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Dela Rey Steyn

Bulldog said:


> They sure did @Dela Rey Steyn that's why I thought it was genuine.
> View attachment 152941



Dang, then those Chinese are getting crafty....

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## SergioChasingClouds

I've hopped onto this bandwagon a bit late but I find it really strange that the NCZ advocates aren't flexing here...To me it seems as though one can draw a direct comparison between some reviewers/forum member/vendors and social media influencers. Sorry if I'm going off on a tangent here but I have personally seen the power some of these "better known" (I would say well respected but who am I kidding?!) members of the community have over the average joes' like myself. Examples such as "Wow this build quality is totally worth the price" or "The most anticipated juice of the year arrives at vendor xxxx on this date xxxx", I could go on but I hope you guys see my point in this very brief rant.

The fact of the matter is most of us in the vaping community are ex-smokers, thus, have addictive personalities (I'd like to believe that I wouldn't have started vaping if I wasn't addicted to smoking). This being said, I think its disgusting for these people to take advantage of our addict mentality for the benefit of a select few (Just my opinion, I have no facts to prove the so called "influencers" are benefiting in any way).
As far as influencing goes, let's just influence smokers to turn to vaping...finish and klaar!

Also, no sour grapes here. What a person does with their hard earned money is their own prerogative...

Also Also, I really dislike 1 of the reviewers mentioned in an earlier post...now I dislike them both equally

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Funny 1


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## jm10

SergioChasingClouds said:


> I've hopped onto this bandwagon a bit late but I find it really strange that the NCZ advocates aren't flexing here...To me it seems as though one can draw a direct comparison between some reviewers/forum member/vendors and social media influencers. Sorry if I'm going off on a tangent here but I have personally seen the power some of these "better known" (I would say well respected but who am I kidding?!) members of the community have over the average joes' like myself. Examples such as "Wow this build quality is totally worth the price" or "The most anticipated juice of the year arrives at vendor xxxx on this date xxxx", I could go on but I hope you guys see my point in this very brief rant.
> 
> The fact of the matter is most of us in the vaping community are ex-smokers, thus, have addictive personalities (I'd like to believe that I wouldn't have started vaping if I wasn't addicted to smoking). This being said, I think its disgusting for these people to take advantage of our addict mentality for the benefit of a select few (Just my opinion, I have no facts to prove the so called "influencers" are benefiting in any way).
> As far as influencing goes, let's just influence smokers to turn to vaping...finish and klaar!
> 
> Also, no sour grapes here. What a person does with their hard earned money is their own prerogative...
> 
> Also Also, I really dislike 1 of the reviewers mentioned in an earlier post...now I dislike them both equally



Those are very good points, influencers are suppose to be un biased but again thats why when i watch a review i just watch the item on show and the build process then onto the next one, you get very few that are really truly unbiased so take what they say with a pinch of salt.

This is an open forum where all are welcome because we have a common goal. We do not live under dictatorship so we have a choice in how we vape and how we spend our money on it.

Pro choice still stands and we are all happy about that.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Adephi

BioHAZarD said:


>




I would like to see the the actual video where he had the chat with uncle Rob that lead to his "repentance". The one he refers to on instagram.

Just for the reasons, because I feel that is the thing that can start a healthy debate here. But there is no way I'm registering on another social media platform. Logging into Facebook once a week is more than enough for me.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## BioHAZarD

Adephi said:


> I would like to see the the actual video where he had the chat with uncle Rob that lead to his "repentance". The one he refers to on instagram.
> 
> Just for the reasons, because I feel that is the thing that can start a healthy debate here. But there is no way I'm registering on another social media platform. Logging into Facebook once a week is more than enough for me.


yeah dude
would be interesting. i dont even have facebook

should be an interesting discussion

Rob: Now listen here Broomstick, you are now a clone free zone. Got it?
Broomstick: Ja oom, Jammer oom #gooiwolke ne!!

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Funny 6


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## SergioChasingClouds

Also Also Also, If there is ever an award for the best forum name, it should go to @Jean claude Vaaldamme for sure!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5 | Useful 1


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## Adephi

SergioChasingClouds said:


> I've hopped onto this bandwagon a bit late but I find it really strange that the NCZ advocates aren't flexing here...To me it seems as though one can draw a direct comparison between some reviewers/forum member/vendors and social media influencers. Sorry if I'm going off on a tangent here but I have personally seen the power some of these "better known" (I would say well respected but who am I kidding?!) members of the community have over the average joes' like myself. Examples such as "Wow this build quality is totally worth the price" or "The most anticipated juice of the year arrives at vendor xxxx on this date xxxx", I could go on but I hope you guys see my point in this very brief rant.
> 
> The fact of the matter is most of us in the vaping community are ex-smokers, thus, have addictive personalities (I'd like to believe that I wouldn't have started vaping if I wasn't addicted to smoking). This being said, I think its disgusting for these people to take advantage of our addict mentality for the benefit of a select few (Just my opinion, I have no facts to prove the so called "influencers" are benefiting in any way).
> As far as influencing goes, let's just influence smokers to turn to vaping...finish and klaar!
> 
> Also, no sour grapes here. What a person does with their hard earned money is their own prerogative...
> 
> Also Also, I really dislike 1 of the reviewers mentioned in an earlier post...now I dislike them both equally



I actually got to a point where I'm limiting my views of the vapemail and handcheck threads. Will be surprised how healthy it is for your fomo.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 4


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## Adephi

SergioChasingClouds said:


> Also Also Also, If there is ever an award for the best forum name, it should go to @Jean claude Vaaldamme for sure!



I suspect its cloned for somewhere..

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## BioHAZarD

ait you cloned muppets
play nicely till i get back later. try to not get me banned

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Optimistic 2 | Disagree 1


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> yeah dude
> would be interesting. i dont even have facebook
> 
> should be an interesting discussion
> 
> Rob: Now listen here Broomstick, you are now a clone free zone. Got it?
> Broomstick: Ja oom, Jammer oom #gooiwolke ne!!



Lmao  funniest post ever written

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Adephi said:


> I would like to see the the actual video where he had the chat with uncle Rob that lead to his "repentance". The one he refers to on instagram.
> 
> Just for the reasons, because I feel that is the thing that can start a healthy debate here. But there is no way I'm registering on another social media platform. Logging into Facebook once a week is more than enough for me.



I think what you wanted to say is you would like to see his bank statements

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Dela Rey Steyn

Bulldog said:


> They sure did @Dela Rey Steyn that's why I thought it was genuine.
> View attachment 152941



Did some research and the Figure-of-8 knot on the leash is a dead give away of a clone-leash, the OG leashes comes with a Palomar knot...

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3 | Informative 2


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## baksteen8168

BioHAZarD said:


> yeah dude
> would be interesting. i dont even have facebook
> 
> should be an interesting discussion
> 
> Rob: Now listen here Broomstick, you are now a clone free zone. Got it?
> Broomstick: Ja oom, Jammer oom #gooiwolke ne!!



You forgot to add :" My vrou gaan my bliksem"

Love your custom title btw

Reactions: Funny 4 | Thanks 1


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## picautomaton

yo yo yo, twelf pages. Gonna fill up my cloned tank and catch up on the reading.

should start a 'Clone Pride' thread

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## jm10

picautomaton said:


> yo yo yo, twelf pages. Gonna fill up my cloned tank and catch up on the reading.
> 
> should start a 'Clone Pride' thread



Yeah we go big, enjoy yourself

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Bulldog

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Did some research and the Figure-of-8 knot on the leash is a dead give away of a clone-leash, the OG leashes comes with a Palomar knot...


Bastards, they told me that was a Palomar knot.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Need some opinions. Do you think this is authentic or a Weber clone?

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 3


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## lesvaches

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Need some opinions. Do you think this is authentic or a Weber clone?
> View attachment 152953


clone! the grid at the bottom between the wheels should be triangular.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## BioHAZarD

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Need some opinions. Do you think this is authentic or a Weber clone?
> View attachment 152953


Original clone

Reactions: Funny 3


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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Need some opinions. Do you think this is authentic or a Weber clone?
> View attachment 152953



There is no Weber on the white parts of the wheels, this is a cheap knock of, Clones are identical including all the details from what i have seen.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Thanks, the image was just a clone, original can be found here https://www.ecigssa.co.za/things-to-do-during-loadshedding.t55581/page-4

Reactions: Funny 4


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## SmokeyJoe

Doesnt matter. It doesnt qualify as n braai if charcoal is used instead of wood.

Your arguments are invalid

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 6


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## Raindance

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Need some opinions. Do you think this is authentic or a Weber clone?
> View attachment 152953


That is an original. The clone is made by Ford and is called the Kuga. Easy to spot the difference.

Regards

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 8


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

SmokeyJoe said:


> Doesnt matter. It doesnt qualify as n braai if charcoal is used instead of wood.
> 
> Your arguments are invalid


Since they started making charcoial from wood, I use both

Its like when I was fishing one day and to guys are discussing where to cast as to where the fish are, and the old oom next to them said. Since the fish learned how to swim, he cast anywhere

Reactions: Funny 8


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Daniel said:


> Funny enough right after I did my announcement of joining the initiative is the time I started getting trolled on my own review thread coincidence I think not.....
> 
> Put please stay 'United'...the rest of us will just carry on...I'm done with this BS topic and BS thread....


Ok Im still new so havent had time to watch all the gazillion of Americas funniest vape videos.
But he say that the trolling started after he made the no clone announcement. But on the video posted of his anouncement, he already goes off against the trolls and zaps them. So were the trolls not first and then the egg?

Reactions: Funny 4


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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Ok Im still new so havent had time to watch all the gazillion of Americas funniest vape videos.
> But he say that the trolling started after he made the no clone announcement. But on the video posted of his anouncement, he already goes off against the trolls and zaps them. So were the trolls not first and then the egg?



I think there was a instagram videos or youtube were he announced it before that youtube clip posted in this thread

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

jm10 said:


> I think there was a instagram videos or youtube were he announced it before that youtube clip posted in this thread


Ok sorry then, did not know trolls do Instagram. Thought it was just the Kardashians

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Ok sorry then, did not know trolls do Instagram. Thought it was just the Kardashians



Not your fault you didn’t know,
I dont know a single person who uses instagram...... always thought it was a picture app thing to post duck face selfies.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 4


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## SergioChasingClouds

Raindance said:


> That is an original. The clone is made by Ford and is called the Kuga. Easy to spot the difference.
> 
> Regards


Easy...this post might be moved to the car talk thread...

Reactions: Funny 5


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## BioHAZarD

baksteen8168 said:


> You forgot to add :" My vrou gaan my bliksem"
> 
> Love your custom title btw


Thanks buddy

Reactions: Like 3


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## BioHAZarD

you bloody muppets you got my sale ad removed 
then again maybe it was becoz i mixed the tupperware with a clone of the holy skyline. Very big NO NO

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 4


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> you bloody muppets you got my sale ad removed
> then again maybe it was becoz i mixed the tupperware with a clone of the holy skyline. Very big NO NO



Ill take the blame again its becoming my thing

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> Ill take the blame again its becoming my thing


nah i think @KZOR put up his hand for this one
i'll be round to pick up the cash bud 
then we can sommer joke abt broomsticks

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Resistance

So any clone RDA's up for sale?

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> nah i think @KZOR put up his hand for this one
> i'll be round to pick up the cash bud
> then we can sommer joke abt broomsticks



 and now I’m laughing again, best day ever

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2


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## lesvaches

so is clone pron allowed? or only borderline waitress pron?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Funny 2


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## jm10

lesvaches said:


> so is clone pron allowed? or only borderline waitress pron?



Your choice thats the beauty of it

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Resistance

Was it a Datsun skyline or a Nissan skyline?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## jm10

Resistance said:


> Was it a Datsun skyline or a Nissan skyline?

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1 | Funny 1 | Creative 1


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## Pixstar

lesvaches said:


> https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/busin...encers-into-paying-600-for-20-shoes-1.4199050


A mate of mine and his family owned a small chain of luggage shops, all based in popular shopping centres.
When visiting him one day at one of the shops (many years ago) he told me about a rack of bags and other goods he had placed on special with heavy discounts. The stock did not move. He then priced it above normal retail and he sold them all.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## BioHAZarD

Thanks for a fun day on this thread guys.
Nice to see that we can all laugh at each other once in a while. Keep it up.

BTW u guys owe me sale thread

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## baksteen8168

BioHAZarD said:


> Thanks for a fun day on this thread guys.
> Nice to see that we can all laugh at each other once in a while. Keep it up.
> 
> BTW u guys owe me sale thread


Technically you still have your sale thread... We just cant post there anymore

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## jm10

baksteen8168 said:


> Technically you still have your sale thread... We just cant post there anymore

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## baksteen8168

Back to the topic at hand

I really get what the no clone supporters are saying, but surely they can see where the clone supporters are coming from as well? When I moved from starter gear to the hobby side of vaping the Russian 91% and the Kayfun were the tanks to have. If it wasn't for clones of those RTA's I would probably have gone back to smoking as the starter kits then just wasn't cutting it. And there was just no way, back then, that I could afford the price of either authentic. 

Times have changed and there are plenty of decently priced authentic gear available now. But if that R150 clone keeps someone who is struggling financially off ciggies, then in my eyes it's a good thing.

While we all have our views and poke fun at each other,surely we can all see that this subject is causing a great divide in the vaping community. 

At the risk of being flamed, I honestly think that some individuals on both side of the fence are fully embracing the current generations tendency for over sensitivity. In the deleted threads where both parties responded, not one constructive debate could be had where either side considers the other's view on the matter because some forumites initially took some comments personal and this spiraled into personal attacks on both sides. Consider this - Could we in fact be so consumed with over analyzing these initial posts that we’ve completely hindered opposing parties' freedom of expression? Without the freedom to express either for or against views, how will this subject be put to rest?



Anyway, enough seriaaasness from my side. Awaiting the witty comments (especially from @BioHAZarD , @lesvaches & @jm10 ) with great anticipation.

Reactions: Like 7 | Winner 1


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## jm10

baksteen8168 said:


> Back to the topic at hand
> 
> I really get what the no clone supporters are saying, but surely they can see where the clone supporters are coming from as well? When I moved from starter gear to the hobby side of vaping the Russian 91% and the Kayfun were the tanks to have. If it wasn't for clones of those RTA's I would probably have gone back to smoking as the starter kits then just wasn't cutting it. And there was just no way, back then, that I could afford the price of either authentic.
> 
> Times have changed and there are plenty of decently priced authentic gear available now. But if that R150 clone keeps someone who is struggling financially off ciggies, then in my eyes it's a good thing.
> 
> While we all have our views and poke fun at each other,surely we can all see that this subject is causing a great divide in the vaping community.
> 
> At the risk of being flamed, I honestly think that some individuals on both side of the fence are fully embracing the current generations tendency for over sensitivity. In the deleted threads where both parties responded, not one constructive debate could be had where either side considers the other's view on the matter because some forumites initially took some comments personal and this spiraled into personal attacks on both sides. Consider this - Could we in fact be so consumed with over analyzing these initial posts that we’ve completely hindered opposing parties' freedom of expression? Without the freedom to express either for or against views, how will this subject be put to rest?
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, enough seriaaasness from my side. Awaiting the witty comments (especially from @BioHAZarD , @lesvaches & @jm10 ) with great anticipation.



Im with you and your comments.

We are not pro clone; i think everyone needs to understand that first, we are pro choice.

I do not own any clones and nothing that you would consider “real HE” so i am biased. 

We do have a split in the forum regarding this matter and thats fine because not all of us agree on stuff anyway. 

At the end of the day people call us trolls on all forms of media and we are fine with that do you know why? We are not snowflakes and can roll with the punches, also we are grown ass men most of the time.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## baksteen8168

jm10 said:


> We are not snowflakes and can roll with the punches, also we are grown ass men most of the time.



But being a snowflake looks like so much fun!

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 3


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## jm10

baksteen8168 said:


> Back to the topic at hand
> 
> 
> 
> At the risk of being flamed, I honestly think that some individuals on both side of the fence are fully embracing the current generations tendency for over sensitivity.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, enough seriaaasness from my side. Awaiting the witty comments (especially from @BioHAZarD , @lesvaches & @jm10 ) with great anticipation.




I think some people are just more in tune with their feminine side

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## jm10

baksteen8168 said:


> But being a snowflake looks like so much fun!



How did you get our Christmas card already

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Armed

I'm Pro choice all the way.
So if someone wants to be pro clone , I'm happy for you.
If someone wants

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## Armed

If some someone wants to be anti clone I'm happy for you too. 
Insults from either side just doesn't make sense to me.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


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## vicTor

*yawn*

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Can relate 1


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## BioHAZarD

hi guys
Not ignoring you. Stuck in meetings the whole day unfortunately
Will catch up later.

Reactions: Like 1 | Can relate 3


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## Hooked

I don't own HE mods, but my opinion is that there is nothing wrong with buying a clone, *so long as it is sold and advertised as a clone. * If, however, the original logo has been copied, as @Silver mentioned and the mod is being passed off as authentic, that is most certainly wrong. It's downright fraud!

The same reasoning applies to what is fast becoming another taboo - cloned juice. What is the issue?? Cloned juice will never be the same as the original, which is of course made to a secret recipe. At best it will be similar. If someone can't afford to buy the original, but wants that kind of flavour, then by all means buy a clone. 

*Again, so long as it is clearly stated that the juice is a clone, I see no problem with it.* However, if it's passed off as the original, that is absolutely not acceptable. 

Juice manufacturers may not like the fact that their juice is cloned. Why not? If I were a juice manufacturer I would just laugh it off. After all, the cloned version will never be as good as the original, so if you want to buy what is , essentially, second-best, go for it.

I was given a cloned Dinner Lady Lemon Tart to try. I might have enjoyed it if I had never tasted the original, but I have. Believe me, the clone was merely a muted version of the original. 

*Bottom line: There's nothing wrong with honest cloning i.e. stating that the product is cloned. *

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> hi guys
> Not ignoring you. Stuck in meetings the whole day unfortunately
> Will catch up later.



Sorry man, if it makes you feel any better i took a days leave so I’m relaxing at home

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

I did not even know you get clones, until I read other threads were people started with no clone zones and then this thread. I dont think I have one thing in my house that is a clone, nevermind vape stuff.

But but but, I hate hypocrits. I know that the same person who calls cloning, stealing, will also be the person that try to cheat a bit on his tax forms, or exceed the speed limit or dont stop fully at the stop street, or drive sometime a bit over the alcohol limit etc etc. There is millions of things that you not supposed to do, that people do. So to come and judge other is a bit funny.

People just put their goody good shoes on when it suits them. Hypocrits

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> Sorry man, if it makes you feel any better i took a days leave so I’m relaxing at home


Not really eh

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> People just put their goody good shoes on when it suits them. Hypocrits



Absolutely.

Reactions: Like 2


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## RichJB

@baksteen8168, the way I see it is this: consumers are going to do what consumers do - obey their wallets and act in their own interests. We see this in every single sector. When Napster started and people could download 1000 LPs for free, they did so. When home taping was viable, people did it. When floppy disks or CDs of computer games could be copied, people did it. When cut-price grey market cigarettes are available, people buy them. When knock-off Ray-Bans or Nikes are available, people buy them. People can preach as much as they like that it's immoral and everybody needs to stand together to stamp it out. Consumers will ignore them like a Stop street. And, contrary to the doomsaying, the music and gaming industries didn't die because of home piracy. Both industries are doing just fine.

There is a saying "God grant me the courage to change the things I can change, the serenity to accept the things I can't change, and the wisdom to know the difference." I am not going to waste my time appealing to people to not buy knock-offs. I might as well appeal to the nation's criminals to see the light and not commit crime and cause misery anymore. Similarly, I will not pontificate that juice companies shouldn't steal DIY recipes published online. It's going to happen regardless of how many people pontificate about it. It is human nature to steal for gain and you can't talk people out of human nature.

As I've explained, I don't think clone companies are taking food out of the mouths of HE designers and manufacturers. They are taking food out of the mouths of other Chinese companies that produce budget gear that is similarly priced to clones. In the grand pantheon of problems facing humanity, two sets of Chinese companies locked in grim capitalistic combat is barely a blip on the radar. There are greater injustices to fight.

Perhaps due to vaping's emergence as a hobbyist collective, there exists the perception that the community must stand together and solve problems together. That became redundant the day that vaping went mainstream. Tobacco companies are not asking their customers to form social media activist groups that speak out and mobilise against illegal cigs. The tobacco companies have been mainstream long enough to see it as their own industry problem, not their customers' problem. Likewise when big tobacco is faced with regulation, they hire lawyers and fight it in court. They don't ask their customers to sign petitions. They know that it is not their customers' livelihood at stake, so the reaction will at best be lukewarm. 

Vaping gets kicked in the teeth every time by this. Rip gets all hyper-ventilative because only 5k US vapers have signed the FDA's flavour petition. Yes, Rip, welcome to reality. Vapers don't make their livelihood from vaping, they are not going to bust a gut to save the industry. The industry must save itself. That is how life works. 

And this too is why I don't stand outside PnP ringing a bell and agitating for consumers to boycott brand X of mayonnaise because they are "big mayonnaise" and used dirty tricks to screw over "little mayonnaise". Instead, I buy whichever mayonnaise appeals to me. I neither know nor care about the politics in the mayonnaise sector. It's their livelihood, they must sort it out. I'm a consumer, I buy what suits me. That is where my obligation ends.

I'm not even swayed by the argument that cheap clones help smokers to quit. I make my own choices and leave others to make theirs. If Piet Pompies believes Huisgenoot that vaping will give him popcorn lung and continues smoking instead, more power to him. That's his indaba, I am not going to lose any sleep over him choosing to smoke. Yet there are thousands of vapers who take it as some sort of mortal personal insult that Piet Pompies won't choose vaping. Wtf? I wish I had the time and energy to worry about such trivia. But I don't. I don't need to save a billion lives. Saving my own is enough.

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## Puff the Magic Dragon

Lil Mayo needs all the help he can get !

Reactions: Funny 12


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## BioHAZarD

And still nothing from the NCZ. Maybe we are not important enough

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## BioHAZarD

@Daniel
@Martin Narainsamy and any other other NCZ individuals/groups why do you feel so strongly about your cause

Reactions: Like 2


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## BioHAZarD

All official

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> And still nothing from the NCZ. Maybe we are not important enough



Its a bit weird, if they are not prepared to fight their case here how do they expect to win the war on clones.

If they brought forward some good points they could convince allot of people to stay away from clones but been silent never did anything.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Dislike 1


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> All official
> 
> View attachment 153004



Had no idea you were into cosplay.....

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> Had no idea you were into cosplay.....


There is a lot you don’t know

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> There is a lot you don’t know






Hows the meeting going

Reactions: Funny 4


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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> View attachment 153006
> 
> 
> Hows the meeting going


Yawn yawn yawn

Reactions: Funny 2


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## baksteen8168

RichJB said:


> @baksteen8168, the way I see it is this: consumers are going to do what consumers do - obey their wallets and act in their own interests. We see this in every single sector. When Napster started and people could download 1000 LPs for free, they did so. When home taping was viable, people did it. When floppy disks or CDs of computer games could be copied, people did it. When cut-price grey market cigarettes are available, people buy them. When knock-off Ray-Bans or Nikes are available, people buy them. People can preach as much as they like that it's immoral and everybody needs to stand together to stamp it out. Consumers will ignore them like a Stop street. And, contrary to the doomsaying, the music and gaming industries didn't die because of home piracy. Both industries are doing just fine.
> 
> There is a saying "God grant me the courage to change the things I can change, the serenity to accept the things I can't change, and the wisdom to know the difference." I am not going to waste my time appealing to people to not buy knock-offs. I might as well appeal to the nation's criminals to see the light and not commit crime and cause misery anymore. Similarly, I will not pontificate that juice companies shouldn't steal DIY recipes published online. It's going to happen regardless of how many people pontificate about it. It is human nature to steal for gain and you can't talk people out of human nature.
> 
> As I've explained, I don't think clone companies are taking food out of the mouths of HE designers and manufacturers. They are taking food out of the mouths of other Chinese companies that produce budget gear that is similarly priced to clones. In the grand pantheon of problems facing humanity, two sets of Chinese companies locked in grim capitalistic combat is barely a blip on the radar. There are greater injustices to fight.
> 
> Perhaps due to vaping's emergence as a hobbyist collective, there exists the perception that the community must stand together and solve problems together. That became redundant the day that vaping went mainstream. Tobacco companies are not asking their customers to form social media activist groups that speak out and mobilise against illegal cigs. The tobacco companies have been mainstream long enough to see it as their own industry problem, not their customers' problem. Likewise when big tobacco is faced with regulation, they hire lawyers and fight it in court. They don't ask their customers to sign petitions. They know that it is not their customers' livelihood at stake, so the reaction will at best be lukewarm.
> 
> Vaping gets kicked in the teeth every time by this. Rip gets all hyper-ventilative because only 5k US vapers have signed the FDA's flavour petition. Yes, Rip, welcome to reality. Vapers don't make their livelihood from vaping, they are not going to bust a gut to save the industry. The industry must save itself. That is how life works.
> 
> And this too is why I don't stand outside PnP ringing a bell and agitating for consumers to boycott brand X of mayonnaise because they are "big mayonnaise" and used dirty tricks to screw over "little mayonnaise". Instead, I buy whichever mayonnaise appeals to me. I neither know nor care about the politics in the mayonnaise sector. It's their livelihood, they must sort it out. I'm a consumer, I buy what suits me. That is where my obligation ends.
> 
> I'm not even swayed by the argument that cheap clones help smokers to quit. I make my own choices and leave others to make theirs. If Piet Pompies believes Huisgenoot that vaping will give him popcorn lung and continues smoking instead, more power to him. That's his indaba, I am not going to lose any sleep over him choosing to smoke. Yet there are thousands of vapers who take it as some sort of mortal personal insult that Piet Pompies won't choose vaping. Wtf? I wish I had the time and energy to worry about such trivia. But I don't. I don't need to save a billion lives. Saving my own is enough.



Well put.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## lesvaches

jm10 said:


> Its a bit weird, if they are not prepared to fight their case here how do they expect to win the war on clones.
> 
> If they brought forward some good points they could convince allot of people to stay away from clones but been silent never did anything.


communist have the same playbook, it’s a culture war.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## BioHAZarD

Is there any place more boring than this forum today 

I am actually paying attention to my meetings.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## Dela Rey Steyn

if all goes well, i'm picking up a Clone BB this weekend... Hand checks will be done accordingly...

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 3


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## lesvaches

BioHAZarD said:


> Is there any place more boring than this forum today
> 
> I am actually paying attention to my meetings.


dealing with load shedding damage today.

Reactions: Like 1 | Can relate 1


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## jm10

Most boring end to a Victory to date

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## BioHAZarD

lesvaches said:


> dealing with load shedding damage today.


Sorry to hear that bud
Just meant in general

Reactions: Like 2


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

jm10 said:


> Most boring end to a Victory to date


Easiest way to deal with troublemakers/ people looking for a fight, ignore them, they will get bored and move on.

Or better. Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself?(get banned)

So dont count your chickens before they hatch

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Easiest way to deal with troublemakers/ people looking for a fight, ignore them, they will get bored and move on.
> 
> Or better. Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself?(get banned)
> 
> So dont count your chickens before they hatch


Ok
You are banned

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Easiest way to deal with troublemakers/ people looking for a fight, ignore them, they will get bored and move on.
> 
> Or better. Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself?(get banned)
> 
> So dont count your chickens before they hatch



Aren’t you a ray of sunshine

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 4


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## SergioChasingClouds

jm10 said:


> Its a bit weird, if they are not prepared to fight their case here how do they expect to win the war on clones.
> 
> If they brought forward some good points they could convince allot of people to stay away from clones but been silent never did anything.



I thought their argument was "cause it's better" or "cause it's cool" or "cause uncle so and so told me to"....?????

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## jm10

SergioChasingClouds said:


> I thought their argument was "cause it's better" or "cause it's cool" or "cause uncle so and so told me to"....?????



 well I’m convinced

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## baksteen8168

SergioChasingClouds said:


> I thought their argument was "cause it's better" or "cause it's cool" or "cause uncle so and so told me to"....?????


i'm in. When's the pre-order?

Reactions: Funny 4


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## SergioChasingClouds

baksteen8168 said:


> i'm in. When's the pre-order?



Awesome! First you gotta hop on your left leg while touching your nose with your right hand. Then, with your left hand, take a selfie of you HE hop and post it on the super secret facebook page that can only be accessed from a device running Android 7 or above. Once this is done, you are entered into the fight club where you will need to take on a kangaroo (original, imported from AUS). You will need to land 3 punches, 2 left kicks and a roundhouse kick (you get to choose which leg you'd like to perform this with). If successful, you will receive an encrypted email with a link. Follow the link into the deep dark web and you will find the item you so desire. Keep in mind, the email will self-destructed after 30mins so best you act quick!

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 6


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## jm10

SergioChasingClouds said:


> Awesome! First you gotta hop on your left leg while touching your nose with your right hand. Then, with your left hand, take a selfie of you HE hop and post it on the super secret facebook page that can only be accessed from a device running Android 7 or above. Once this is done, you are entered into the fight club where you will need to take on a kangaroo (original, imported from AUS). You will need to land 3 punches, 2 left kicks and a roundhouse kick (you get to choose which leg you'd like to perform this with). If successful, you will receive an encrypted email with a link. Follow the link into the deep dark web and you will find the item you so desire. Keep in mind, the email will self-destructed after 30mins so best you act quick!



You forgot the sacrificial ritual that you have to perform....

Reactions: Funny 3


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## jm10

SergioChasingClouds said:


> Awesome! First you gotta hop on your left leg while touching your nose with your right hand. Then, with your left hand, take a selfie of you HE hop and post it on the super secret facebook page that can only be accessed from a device running Android 7 or above. Once this is done, you are entered into the fight club where you will need to take on a kangaroo (original, imported from AUS). You will need to land 3 punches, 2 left kicks and a roundhouse kick (you get to choose which leg you'd like to perform this with). If successful, you will receive an encrypted email with a link. Follow the link into the deep dark web and you will find the item you so desire. Keep in mind, the email will self-destructed after 30mins so best you act quick!



Thanks for the laugh

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## M.Adhir

jm10 said:


> You forgot the sacrifice that you have to perform....


Sacrifice a chicken. Make curry with it.
everybody's a winner.
Plus, it's a chicken dinner

*ps - no shots were fired during the sacrifice of said chicken

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 5


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## M.Adhir

Our of curiosity, why is it called bathtub juice ? 
Who got caught mixing pg/vg/nic using a mop in their bathtub?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## jm10

M.Adhir said:


> Sacrifice a chicken. Make curry with it.
> everybody's a winner.
> Plus, it's a chicken dinner



Lmao damn you’re good

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## lesvaches

M.Adhir said:


> Our of curiosity, why is it called bathtub juice ?
> Who got caught mixing pg/vg/nic using a mop in their bathtub?


hey! that’s aged vintage bathtub juice to you mr.

Reactions: Like 1


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## M.Adhir

lesvaches said:


> hey! that’s aged vintage bathtub juice to you mr.


What's aged, the bathtub or the mop ?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## jm10

M.Adhir said:


> What's aged, the bathtub or the mop ?






You decide

Reactions: Funny 3


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## lesvaches

jm10 said:


> View attachment 153032
> 
> 
> You decide


mmmm, vintage, my favorite.

Reactions: Like 1


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## M.Adhir

jm10 said:


> View attachment 153032
> 
> 
> You decide



Yumm, so well steeped

Reactions: Funny 2


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## jm10

lesvaches said:


> mmmm, vintage, my favorite.



Come by, have a try.



Need some test subjects anyway

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Mr. B

To go off; off; offffff topic I found @BioHAZarD's mug he left behind at our office

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 3 | Funny 2


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## M.Adhir

jm10 said:


> Come by, have a try.
> 
> 
> 
> Need some test subjects anyway


That's what she said.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## M.Adhir

Mr. B said:


> To go off; off; offffff topic I found @BioHAZarD's mug he left behind at our office
> 
> View attachment 153034


It's on topic, looks soos a klone.
The authentic is a right handed version.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

Mr. B said:


> To go off; off; offffff topic I found @BioHAZarD's mug he left behind at our office
> 
> View attachment 153034


Please include one of those with my next juice order.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## M.Adhir

BioHAZarD said:


> Please include one of those with my next juice order.



Please ask for two, you have my address to forward one  

But I'd like the right handed version

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## BioHAZarD

I actually have a excel sheet with all the forum names. Ticking them off one by one. Have to be methodical in this process

Reactions: Funny 4


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## BioHAZarD

M.Adhir said:


> Please ask for two, you have my address to forward one
> 
> But I'd like the right handed version


Sure thing bud. You gonna sell it as well??

Reactions: Funny 4


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## M.Adhir

BioHAZarD said:


> Sure thing bud. You gonna sell it as well??


I could give it away for free at a rugby match, but that's just not cricket, right

Reactions: Like 4


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## Mr. B

M.Adhir said:


> Please ask for two, you have my address to forward one
> 
> But I'd like the right handed version


Sorry bud it's one per customer. 

It's a HE mug so to qualify to own one you have to make friends with the owner; attend his daughter's 13th birthday party in Indonesia and recite his wife's family tree from memory going back 6 generations.

Once done you'll be on the list for the randomiser

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 4


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> I actually have a excel sheet with all the forum names. Ticking them off one by one. Have to be methodical in this process



How high up am i on this hit list, just need to get my red tie out incase.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> How high up am i on this hit list, just need to get my red tie out incase.
> 
> View attachment 153037


That would be telling.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Mr. B

BioHAZarD said:


> That would be telling.


Play nice guys @BioHAZarD @jm10 ... it's festive season. Where's your festive spirit?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3 | Funny 2


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> That would be telling.



Yeah pretty high i have that effect on people.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

Mr. B said:


> Play nice guys @BioHAZarD @jm10 ... it's festive season. Where's your festive spirit?
> 
> View attachment 153038


Did you clone the Wotofo logo there. Naughty naughty.

Reactions: Like 4


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## jm10

Mr. B said:


> Play nice guys @BioHAZarD @jm10 ... it's festive season. Where's your festive spirit?
> 
> View attachment 153038



Didn’t notice your avatar till now, very sneaky....didn’t know you were a founding member

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## BioHAZarD

jm10 said:


> Didn’t notice your avatar till now, very sneaky....didn’t know you were a founding member


Lekker sharp

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## RichJB

BioHAZarD said:


> Did you clone the Wotofo logo there. Naughty naughty.



Wotofo themselves lifted that artwork. It's an internet meme, not a corporate logo.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Mr. B

jm10 said:


> Didn’t notice your avatar till now, very sneaky....didn’t know you were a founding member


#CloneTrooper4life

Reactions: Like 4


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

There is no pace for clones in the world. By buying clones you support anarchy. No economy can survive if there is no control over cloning. There will be no incentive or protection for entrepreneurs to develop new products, unemployment will rise and economies will fall. At the end all you will be able to buy is cheap unreliable untested products.

Buying clones is something rightwing doomsday preppers do, they want anarchy. There is not enough grey matter between the ears to realize the longterm concequences.
Not having money is a !oad of BS. If you dont have money, you should not have smoked in the first place, nevermind vape.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Disagree 1


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## lesvaches

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> There is no pace for clones in the world. By buying clones you support anarchy. No economy can survive if there is no control over cloning. There will be no incentive or protection for entrepreneurs to develop new products, unemployment will rise and economies will fall. At the end all you will be able to buy is cheap unreliable untested products.
> 
> Buying clones is something rightwing doomsday preppers do, they want anarchy. There is not enough grey matter between the ears to realize the longterm concequences.
> Not having money is a !oad of BS. If you dont have money, you should not have smoked in the first place, nevermind vape.


bollocks! left wing antifa “happy’s” THRIVE on cheap goods or did “living under a black flag” all of a sudden change its meaning? not having money means gold or silver standards returning as they RIGHTfully should. chaos and anarchy belongs to the left, the right has always sought order, aka facism, tradition and seek to Conserve.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Mr. B

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> There is no pace for clones in the world. By buying clones you support anarchy. No economy can survive if there is no control over cloning. There will be no incentive or protection for entrepreneurs to develop new products, unemployment will rise and economies will fall. At the end all you will be able to buy is cheap unreliable untested products.
> 
> Buying clones is something rightwing doomsday preppers do, they want anarchy. There is not enough grey matter between the ears to realize the longterm concequences.
> Not having money is a !oad of BS. If you dont have money, you should not have smoked in the first place, nevermind vape.


Hey bud.

Just a few quick questions:

Have you ever downloaded a movie or watched a movie downloaded from a torrent website?
Have you ever downloaded a tv series or watched a tv series downloaded from a torrent website?
Have you ever downloaded an MP3 without paying royalties to the artist?
Have you ever bought a packet of cigarettes from a stall on the side of the road? 
Have you ever downloaded an illegal copy of a game on your PC without paying for it?

If the answer is yes to one or any of the above then you have engaged in or you have condoned the theft of intellectual property; which is essentially the basis of cloning

Reactions: Like 4


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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> There is no pace for clones in the world. By buying clones you support anarchy. No economy can survive if there is no control over cloning. There will be no incentive or protection for entrepreneurs to develop new products, unemployment will rise and economies will fall. At the end all you will be able to buy is cheap unreliable untested products.
> 
> Buying clones is something rightwing doomsday preppers do, they want anarchy. There is not enough grey matter between the ears to realize the longterm concequences.
> Not having money is a !oad of BS. If you dont have money, you should not have smoked in the first place, nevermind vape.



You are like a seesaw bud and is your doomsday predictions based on facts or times in history?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Rob Fisher

Well I trust you have all had fun and at some peoples expense… this thread really makes me sad… it’s what is wrong with social media… but let me talk for a second about the No Clone Zone… most of you may or may not be aware that a lot of legitimate vape shops are under a lot of financial pressure now that vaping has become main stream and the less than ethical people are coming out of the woodwork… they see vaping as a way to make a quick buck and has nothing to do with the passion that most proper vape stores have in the struggle to get people off stinkies and onto vaping.

A lot of these side-line stores that sell all sorts of crap are now stocking counterfeit juices and clone hardware and the result is that legitimate vape stores are under pressure and may even end up closing… I have had a chat to a few stores in the JHB and PTA area recently and some are even reporting an 80% drop in turnover due to the shop down the street or across the road selling fake juices and hardware. Yes, I guess the proliferation of vape outlets hasn’t helped either.

The other thing to realise is that Joe Average who is not on the forum or Facebook groups have no idea what they are buying and walk into a vape store… check the prices and go across the road and save money on Clone Gear.

Let’s talk about ethics and intellectual property for a second… yes we have all downloaded movies and music in our time and bought a t-shirt from a street vendor or at a flea market but vaping is our passion and in a lot of cases has saved lives and it’s our hobby and our community… do we really want to be associated with clones, fakes and counterfeits?

Yes a lot of us that have been around the vaping scene for a few years has bought and tried clones because in those days we couldn’t get the authentics and that was all we could buy back in the day… but now there are so many excellent Chinese products that work really well there really is no need to buy a product who’s design has been stolen and replicated by unscrupulous manufacturers (many of which are from China) who don’t give a shit about stealing someone’s else work to make a buck.

Yes I feel strongly about the cloning of high end products because in a lot of cases I know and have met a lot of the modders and I feel really bad for them that I get excited about great authentic products in SA and then the clones start arriving in the country… Billet Box, Skyline and Dvarw to name a couple of products I was first to enjoy in SA. You would feel the same way if a mate of yours was getting shafted.

As a matter of interest without any marketing over a 100 vendors have joined the No Clone Zone without any pressure at all… this only goes to show that the industry and the many of SA’s vaping vendors feel this is a very relevant topic and it will continue to garner support.

That is my 2c worth… and I’m not going to get into a long drawn out discussion because I simply don’t have the time or the inclination to respond to drama and trolling… All I’m interested in is promoting the hobby and passion we call vaping in SA.

Reactions: Like 6 | Winner 8


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

jm10 said:


> You are like a seesaw bud and is your doomsday predictions based on facts or times in history?


You guys are complaining for three days that someone must take a bite out the apple, so since noin of the movement came, I decided to keep the thread going

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> You guys are complaining for three days that someone must take a bite out the apple, so since noin of the movement came, I decided to keep the thread going



Bloody troll thank you for been the meat this hungry pack of dogs were after

Reactions: Like 2


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Mr. B said:


> Hey bud.
> 
> Just a few quick questions:
> 
> Have you ever downloaded a movie or watched a movie downloaded from a torrent website?
> Have you ever downloaded a tv series or watched a tv series downloaded from a torrent website?
> Have you ever downloaded an MP3 without paying royalties to the artist?
> Have you ever bought a packet of cigarettes from a stall on the side of the road?
> Have you ever downloaded an illegal copy of a game on your PC without paying for it?
> 
> If the answer is yes to one or any of the above then you have engaged in or you have condoned the theft of intellectual property; which is essentially the basis of cloning


Non
No
No
No
No

Some people have ethics, other listen to Steve Hofmeyr

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 2


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Listen Mina Moo, you can dislike all my post, Constand Bester will proof you wrong​

Reactions: Funny 6 | Disagree 1


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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Listen Mina Moo, you can dislike all my post, Constand Bester will proof you wrong​



Dude the cow thing is my thing, i have the rights to dis it approved by the owner, stop cloning my thing

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Informative 1


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## Silver

Hi all

This thread was created to discuss the topic of clones - where some posts were moved here so it could have a place. (They were in the Whats in your hand thread)

To those that have added constructive commentary, thank you - as I said in one of my posts, its great to hear different points of view. 

But please, if you want to continue commenting here, keep it respectful and on topic. And don't get personal or make personal insults. There are so many "nonsense" posts and off-topic posts - that one has to click through pages of it to get to the constructive commentary. This only serves to make the poster look bad and it paints the forum in a bad light.

If you are not going to post valid constructive commentary and the thread continues much like it has before, then it will have to be locked. And that would not be a good thing. 

Thank you

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Winner 1 | Thanks 1


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## Adephi

Rob Fisher said:


> Well I trust you have all had fun and at some peoples expense… this thread really makes me sad… it’s what is wrong with social media… but let me talk for a second about the No Clone Zone… most of you may or may not be aware that a lot of legitimate vape shops are under a lot of financial pressure now that vaping has become main stream and the less than ethical people are coming out of the woodwork… they see vaping as a way to make a quick buck and has nothing to do with the passion that most proper vape stores have in the struggle to get people off stinkies and onto vaping.
> 
> A lot of these side-line stores that sell all sorts of crap are now stocking counterfeit juices and clone hardware and the result is that legitimate vape stores are under pressure and may even end up closing… I have had a chat to a few stores in the JHB and PTA area recently and some are even reporting an 80% drop in turnover due to the shop down the street or across the road selling fake juices and hardware. Yes, I guess the proliferation of vape outlets hasn’t helped either.
> 
> The other thing to realise is that Joe Average who is not on the forum or Facebook groups have no idea what they are buying and walk into a vape store… check the prices and go across the road and save money on Clone Gear.
> 
> Let’s talk about ethics and intellectual property for a second… yes we have all downloaded movies and music in our time and bought a t-shirt from a street vendor or at a flea market but vaping is our passion and in a lot of cases has saved lives and it’s our hobby and our community… do we really want to be associated with clones, fakes and counterfeits?
> 
> Yes a lot of us that have been around the vaping scene for a few years has bought and tried clones because in those days we couldn’t get the authentics and that was all we could buy back in the day… but now there are so many excellent Chinese products that work really well there really is no need to buy a product who’s design has been stolen and replicated by unscrupulous manufacturers (many of which are from China) who don’t give a shit about stealing someone’s else work to make a buck.
> 
> Yes I feel strongly about the cloning of high end products because in a lot of cases I know and have met a lot of the modders and I feel really bad for them that I get excited about great authentic products in SA and then the clones start arriving in the country… Billet Box, Skyline and Dvarw to name a couple of products I was first to enjoy in SA. You would feel the same way if a mate of yours was getting shafted.
> 
> As a matter of interest without any marketing over a 100 vendors have joined the No Clone Zone without any pressure at all… this only goes to show that the industry and the many of SA’s vaping vendors feel this is a very relevant topic and it will continue to garner support.
> 
> That is my 2c worth… and I’m not going to get into a long drawn out discussion because I simply don’t have the time or the inclination to respond to drama and trolling… All I’m interested in is promoting the hobby and passion we call vaping in SA.



Thank you uncle @Rob Fisher . I think a lot of us on "consumer level" just wanted to get a bit of clarity on what the NCZ really is about.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Daniel

Silver said:


> Hi all
> 
> This thread was created to discuss the topic of clones - where some posts were moved here so it could have a place. (They were in the Whats in your hand thread)
> 
> To those that have added constructive commentary, thank you - as I said in one of my posts, its great to hear different points of view.
> 
> But please, if you want to continue commenting here, keep it respectful and on topic. And don't get personal or make personal insults. There are so many "nonsense" posts and off-topic posts - that one has to click through pages of it to get to the constructive commentary. This only serves to make the poster look bad and it paints the forum in a bad light.
> 
> If you are not going to post valid constructive commentary and the thread continues much like it has before, then it will have to be locked. And that would not be a good thing.
> 
> Thank you


Thank you.

From my side I apologize to the community for my emotional responses. We are all better than this and at the end of the day its about the community and staying healthy. I'm sure one day we'll have a beer and laugh about this sillyness.... Gooi Wolke Pappa!

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## BioHAZarD

Hi @Rob Fisher

Thank you for the detailed response. Appreciate it.

You raise some very valid points. As you have stated there will be no drawn out discussion so I will just list some thoughts. These can be acted on as required if decided to do so.

The IP thing is a non-event as it becomes a legal interpretation and I don't hold myself out to be a lawyer. My personal views on this are clear. If you want it to be yours. Patent it. The customer is paying enough to warrant the expense.

I am a little uncertain about how the fact that vaping has become more mainstream has suddenly placed vendors under such dire financial pressures. The less than ethical people you refer to happen to have been the major vape shops up until the middle or so of this year. They had a healthy stock of Clones available to the public. Now that smaller shops are also doing it they suddenly cry foul. I don't quite buy that. Certain vendors made an absolute killing out of some of the popular cloned Facebook list items. They now have the audacity to say. "Hey wait, I am the only one that is allowed to benefit from that tactic". Not cool (if can quote you from our previous discussion)

Another fact that baffles me is that the larger shops are expanding and not getting smaller. You don't open more stores if you are under financial strain. That would be business suicide. For the smaller stores, sure they may be under pressure. To solely blame it on clones I think would be premature. Some investigations would have to be made into their business models, cash flow patterns and capital base. They may have been overextended to begin with.

Another consideration is that the market as it stands currently may have reached some form of saturation point. Vendors should be grateful for the fact that we are willing to buy any new bloody atty that is released like a bunch of sheep. Financially this is not a sustainable endeavor. The market is just correcting itself.

In terms of fake juice I think i can speak for almost everybody that we don't support cloned juice. There are two distinct variations. The one where the packing and all other aspects has been copied and is being sold as the real deal. The other which i have yet to encounter is where someone sells a "coppervape" version of a branded ejuice.

I honestly don't care about Joe Average. Knowledge is power. You want to vape. Do your research.

Last thought. I don't think anybody has an in principle problem with your initiative. But there needs to be clear lines. Either ban all the vendors on this forum that don't comply or keep if off the forum entirely.

I hope this does not offend anybody.

CB

Reactions: Like 7 | Winner 5


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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> Thank you.
> 
> From my side I apologize to the community for my emotional responses. We are all better than this and at the end of the day its about the community and staying healthy. I'm sure one day we'll have a beer and laugh about this sillyness.... Gooi Wolke Pappa!


Hey @Daniel i am sure we may have a beer at some stage. No idea how the evening will end after a couple though. Just to clarify.... non of the pot shots were personal ... well mostly not

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## Resistance

So my next question.when a HE product is cloned do they sell they rights to other companies like sxk?
Or does sxk and other manufacturers just start cloning tip sellers?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance

If they buy rights hen that product would not be clone ,but rather AM.
So would an AM product be called a clone?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mr. B

Ok so in an attempt to get this thread back on track here's my personal take on the clone wars:

I do not specifically promote or condemn the use of clones. I own both clone and authentic hardware.

My thought process on a getting an authentic or clone product is based on the following factors:

Price - can I afford the authentic or can I only afford the clone?

Availability - do I have to join a Facebook group and hope to get lucky to purchase the product or is it available locally? (I'm not on FB btw)

Functionality - is the clone safe to use and does it function the same way the authentic was intended to? Eg clone juices are always a no no as I do not know if it is safe to use, but clone hardware constructed out of the same materials will be safe to use
Desirability - how badly do I want the product? Eg last year I was looking for an authentic broadside but despite the fact that they are hard to get I watched the classifieds section like a hawk for two months until i found an authentic. I desired this product so much I waited until I found an authentic.

Lastly people who get on their high horses and yell "no clone zone" yet engage in other intellectual property theft ( movies, series, games, etc) are hypocrites and irritate the daylights out of me. If you've engaged in IP theft in the past and now had a change of heart then great, but don't go putting others down for doing the same thing you did not too long ago





Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Just two things. Our economy is not doing well, bussinesses in all sectors are closing down, from food, construction, services etc. So surely cloning cant be the culprit?scapegoat for bussinesses closing? I in fact just see new vape shops opening everywhere.

Then, as I said before. On avarage juice work out at over R3300/L for your average juices. That is totally ridiculous. I was at chinatown on saturday buying 80m of ropelights for a client. The shop also sells what I pressume is fake juice at like R50 for Fantasi. Since I was there for almost 30min, not 3min past where someone did not buy a few juices. Now if the industry was so concerned about the community and protecting the industry, rather than making huge profits at R3300/l, then this would have been their main concern a long time ago. How can your aim be to get people of smoking but it will cost them way more on juice?
How can something made from cheap concentrates cost R3300/l where you can buy fillet steak for R150/kg, Crayfish for a tenth of that? You van buy wine, that has millions invested and researched etc, matured for a few years, for less than that?
This is where the shops are making their money, and ripping customers off, and at those prices they are feeding the clone wars themselves.
If anyone can diy juice at R400/l without even buying wholesale or in bulk, then a proper company can make it and get it sold by vendors for less than R1000/L and everyone will still have proper profit margins and the clones at chinatown will die a quick death

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3 | Winner 3


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## BioHAZarD

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Just two things. Our economy is not doing well, bussinesses in all sectors are closing down, from food, construction, services etc. So surely cloning cant be the culprit?scapegoat for bussinesses closing? I in fact just see new vape shops opening everywhere.
> 
> Then, as I said before. On avarage juice work out at over R3300/L for your average juices. That is totally ridiculous. I was at chinatown on saturday buying 80m of ropelights for a client. The shop also sells what I pressume is fake juice at like R50 for Fantasi. Since I was there for almost 30min, not 3min past where someone did not buy a few juices. Now if the industry was so concerned about the community and protecting the industry, rather than making huge profits at R3300/l, then this would have been their main concern a long time ago. How can your aim be to get people of smoking but it will cost them way more on juice?
> How can something made from cheap concentrates cost R3300/l where you can buy fillet steak for R150/kg, Crayfish for a tenth of that? You van buy wine, that has millions invested and researched etc, matured for a few years, for less than that?
> This is where the shops are making their money, and ripping customers off, and at those prices they are feeding the clone wars themselves.
> If anyone can diy juice at R400/l without even buying wholesale or in bulk, then a proper company can make it and get it sold by vendors for less than R1000/L and everyone will still have proper profit margins and the clones at chinatown will die a quick death


Dude you are all over the place. I can't keep track of which side of the fence you on or even if you are in the same district as said fence.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 4


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

BioHAZarD said:


> Dude you are all over the place. I can't keep track of which side of the fence you on or even if you are in the same district as said fence.


You all asked for a fight and no one responded, so I just took the other side to keep it entertainng, but now the bone got taken, so Im back on my side. Or you want me on the other side again?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## M.Adhir

Here's my take :

It's not right to 1:1 clone stuff.
It's even less right to pass it off as authentic.

It's definitely not right to clone juices, and by this I mean creating cheap quality knockoffs with the same labelling etc as the original.

It's fine enough if two juices taste identical and are safely made by different juicers- copy and paste the flavour if you must, but don't copy and paste the labelling.

Through all of the above - as much as it's not 'the right thing to do', until there's are laws, copyrights, patents in place to direct otherwise, all will happen, and it remains the consumers choice to pick the lane they want to drive in, provided they are made fully aware upfront of the possible risks, and authenticity of the lanes they have been directed to.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## BioHAZarD

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> You all asked for a fight and no one responded, so I just took the other side to keep it entertainng, but now the bone got taken, so Im back on my side. Or you want me on the other side again?


your choice ... obviously

Reactions: Like 2


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> Hi @Rob Fisher
> 
> I am a little uncertain about how the fact that vaping has become more mainstream has suddenly placed vendors under such dire financial pressures. The less than ethical people you refer to happen to have been the major vape shops up until the middle or so of this year. They had a healthy stock of Clones available to the public. Now that smaller shops are also doing it they suddenly cry foul. I don't quite buy that. Certain vendors made an absolute killing out of some of the popular cloned Facebook list items. They now have the audacity to say. "Hey wait, I am the only one that is allowed to benefit from that tactic". Not cool (if can quote you from our previous discussion)
> 
> Another fact that baffles me is that the larger shops are expanding and not getting smaller. You don't open more stores if you are under financial strain. That would be business suicide. For the smaller stores, sure they may be under pressure. To solely blame it on clones I think would be premature. Some investigations would have to be made into their business models, cash flow patterns and capital base. They may have been overextended to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> CB



Im leaning more towards this side, clones in no way can effect the vendors because non of them carried HE goods to begin with. I doubt 90% of new vapers know about HE. So Clone and HE sales should be small in comparison to general vape sales .

I think sales have dropped due to competition and vape shops opening every other week, 

Take me for example, i use to support one place so due to me there sales were slightly higher but on my last big haul i bought from 5 different places so i effected there sales directly. Not one thing was a clone. 

In Durban i dont know a single small corner place that sells HE clones, i know china malls have but thats all smok stuff so i dont even bother.

I agree that china is doing the wrong thing by stealing and taking a mans pride and join and copying it is just not right but life is not fair so you just have to push through or go legal.

Reactions: Like 3


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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> You remind of that guy on TWD Neegan lol....all tough on the outside yet mildly entertaining on the inside....
> 
> If ever you are in JHB/PTA hit me up would love to have a beer with you and NOT talk about vape stuff.....


Haha
Had to go check up on the character. I am not actually that funny. Sure thing bud. I might even take you off my ignore list.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Rob Fisher

jm10 said:


> Im leaning more towards this side, clones in no way can effect the vendors because non of them carried HE goods to begin with. I doubt 90% of new vapers know about HE. So Clone and HE sales should be small in comparison to general vape sales .
> 
> I think sales have dropped due to competition and vape shops opening every other week,
> 
> Take me for example, i use to support one place so due to me there sales were slightly higher but on my last big haul i bought from 5 different places so i effected there sales directly. Not one thing was a clone.
> 
> In Durban i dont know a single small corner place that sells HE clones, i know china malls have but thats all smok stuff so i dont even bother.
> 
> I agree that china is doing the wrong thing by stealing and taking a mans pride and join and copying it is just not right but life is not fair so you just have to push through or go legal.



It's not all about HE... and Durban isn't half as affected as Gauteng is... I was blissfully unaware of just how bad the selling of clone Pico's and fake juice was until my visit to JHB and PTA...

Reactions: Like 1 | Can relate 1


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## jm10

Daniel said:


> Thank you.
> 
> From my side I apologize to the community for my emotional responses. We are all better than this and at the end of the day its about the community and staying healthy. I'm sure one day we'll have a beer and laugh about this sillyness.... Gooi Wolke Pappa!



Ill buy first round, hows the bar under my bridge suit you

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> Who said you were invited


You don't get to me without going through him.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Rob Fisher

BioHAZarD said:


> The IP thing is a non-event as it becomes a legal interpretation and I don't hold myself out to be a lawyer. My personal views on this are clear. If you want it to be yours. Patent it. The customer is paying enough to warrant the expense.



Gonna answer each issue by itself if I may... It's not what is legally enforceable... it's more about ethics and what is right. What the cloners are doing is simply not right. Also having just done a patent in the last year myself (software) I can tell you that most of the high-end modders don't have the cash to do that in one country let alone multiple countries... and enforcing the law worldwide is another matter as well. I'm sorry but copying another man's intellectual property like they do is just wrong. Surely you can't argue about that?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Rob Fisher

BioHAZarD said:


> I am a little uncertain about how the fact that vaping has become more mainstream has suddenly placed vendors under such dire financial pressures. The less than ethical people you refer to happen to have been the major vape shops up until the middle or so of this year. They had a healthy stock of Clones available to the public. Now that smaller shops are also doing it they suddenly cry foul. I don't quite buy that. Certain vendors made an absolute killing out of some of the popular cloned Facebook list items. They now have the audacity to say. "Hey wait, I am the only one that is allowed to benefit from that tactic". Not cool (if can quote you from our previous discussion)
> 
> Another fact that baffles me is that the larger shops are expanding and not getting smaller. You don't open more stores if you are under financial strain. That would be business suicide. For the smaller stores, sure they may be under pressure. To solely blame it on clones I think would be premature. Some investigations would have to be made into their business models, cash flow patterns and capital base. They may have been overextended to begin with.
> 
> Another consideration is that the market as it stands currently may have reached some form of saturation point. Vendors should be grateful for the fact that we are willing to buy any new bloody atty that is released like a bunch of sheep. Financially this is not a sustainable endeavor. The market is just correcting itself.



You intimate that I'm talking about the bigger vape vendors... I'm not. I'm talking about specific vape shops that have never ever sold a clone and who are now finding it hard to make ends meet because of the unscrupulous shops who are not dedicated vape shops selling clone Pico's and fake juice right on their doorstep. And of course it's not solely due to the clones and fake juice but they are certainly having a big impact. The fact is these unscrupulous sellers are stuffing up the market...

Reactions: Like 2


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## jm10

Rob Fisher said:


> It's not all about HE... and Durban isn't half as affected as Gauteng is... I was blissfully unaware of just how bad the selling of clone Pico's and fake juice was until my visit to JHB and PTA...



Well call me blissfully unaware aswell, to me the clone market was so small it was insignificant and fully HE.

I think the entire forum is against clone juice, this is unsafe and i always had an issue with this. 

At the end of the day i dont own clones for personal reason but i wont stop another person from doing what he wants because i just dont care that much about said person. 

*Now no offense to anyone* but i did this for the average joe, not the guy who would buy a clone pico or clone juice.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Rob Fisher

BioHAZarD said:


> I honestly don't care about Joe Average. Knowledge is power. You want to vape. Do your research.



You may not care about Joe Average... but I do... I care about the Vaping game from start to finish and these issues are mudding the water and certainly are of no help to the cause at all.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Rob Fisher

BioHAZarD said:


> Last thought. I don't think anybody has an in principle problem with your initiative. But there needs to be clear lines. Either ban all the vendors on this forum that don't comply or keep if off the forum in totality.
> 
> I hope this does not offend anybody.



Oh, I wish it was that simple... if there were clear lines... but there isn't... the forum is here for the promotion of vaping and getting people off stinkies... and there is no rule that a vendor can't sell clones... but it doesn't mean we can't discuss the issue. 

I never get offended when issues are discussed in an adult manner like this.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Daniel

jm10 said:


> Well call me blissfully unaware aswell, to me the clone market was so small it was insignificant and fully HE.
> 
> I think the entire forum is against clone juice, this is unsafe and i always had an issue with this.
> 
> At the end of the day i dont own clones for personal reason but i wont stop another person from doing what he wants because i just dont care that much about said person.
> 
> *Now no offense to anyone* but i did this for the average joe, not the guy who would buy a clone pico or clone juice.


I have two work colleagues that bought clone hardware kits....when I handled said hardware it was literally hot to the touch in the sense I knew this will either mal function or just stop working or worse vent (no venting holes btw). I will be visiting this side of the road 'shop' soon and video document it.....

Reactions: Like 3


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## BioHAZarD

Thanks @Rob Fisher will provide responses when I am back at my computer again. Healthy debate. Very nice.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## jm10

Daniel said:


> Who said you were invited



Don’t say i never try...... 


This been civil thing is hard.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 3


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## Adephi

Daniel said:


> I have two work colleagues that bought clone hardware kits....when I handled said hardware it was literally hot to the touch in the sense I knew this will either mal function or just stop working or worse vent (no venting holes btw). I will be visiting this side of the road 'shop' soon and video document it.....



Please make it for your youtube subs.

Reactions: Like 2


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## jm10

Rob Fisher said:


> You intimate that I'm talking about the bigger vape vendors... I'm not. I'm talking about specific vape shops that have never ever sold a clone and who are now finding it hard to make ends meet because of the unscrupulous shops who are not dedicated vape shops selling clone Pico's and fake juice right on their doorstep. And of course it's not solely due to the clones and fake juice but they are certainly having a big impact. The fact is these unscrupulous sellers are stuffing up the market...



But Rob how is the NCZ going to fight these non dedicated vape shops if they never join the NCZ and i doubt they will. 

By no vape vendor selling clones wouldn’t that increase sales at these non vape shops and there clones.

Just to ad that this is exactly the type of posts that make a person want to join the NCZ movement because to me it was all about HE stuff and zero to do with juice and normal vape stuff.

Sorry still trying to wrap my head around a clone pico i mean really the thing is a couple hundred bucks original.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Rob Fisher

jm10 said:


> But Rob how is the NCZ going to fight these non dedicated vape shops if they never join the NCZ and i doubt they will.
> 
> By no vape vendor selling clones wouldn’t that increase sales at these non vape shops and there clones.
> 
> Just to ad that this is exactly the type of posts that make a person want to join the NCZ movement because to me it was all about HE stuff and zero to do with juice and normal vape stuff.
> 
> Sorry still trying to wrap my head around a clone pico i mean really the thing is a couple hundred bucks original.



NCZ isn't fighting anyone... it's a group that subscribes to not selling clones and fake juice and in time people will realise that they should be supporting NCZ vendors.

Yip clone Pico's boggle my brain as well and they sell a lot of them...

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 2


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## M.Adhir

To answer the Pico question to an extent:

As a smoker, when I decided to stop smoking and start vaping, I walked into a vape shop and nearly fell over after hearing prices. Bearing in mind at the time everyone was telling me vaping is cheaper than smoking. 
Then suddenly - pico kit is R850, but you need a battery (150). And a spare battery(150) in case that one dies on you. And an external charger(350), coz it's better to use that. And some spare coils, so you don't run back to smoking coz your coil burnt (200), and flavour - get two at least, one fruity (150) and one tobacco in case you feel for the taste of a smoke(150). 

Now compare that to even a pack a day smoker - where the entire month would cost around R1100. 

And wonder why people who are just getting off cigs are the most likely to buy clone entry level hardware (and likely clone juices from the same shop)

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

jm10 said:


> Sorry still trying to wrap my head around a clone pico i mean really the thing is a couple hundred bucks original.


 China mall, R450 plus a fake battery

Reactions: Like 1


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## jm10

M.Adhir said:


> As a smoker, when I decided to stop smoking and start vaping, I walked into a vape shop and nearly fell over after hearing prices. Bearing in mind at the time everyone was telling me vaping is cheaper than smoking.
> Then suddenly
> - pico kit is R850,
> but you need a battery (150).
> And a spare battery(150) in case that one dies on you.
> And an external charger(350), coz it's better to use that.
> And some spare coils, so you don't run back to smoking coz your coil burnt (200),
> and flavour - get two at least, one fruity (150) and one tobacco in case you feel for the taste of a smoke(150). Total bill for something I had no assurance would help me = R2000.
> 
> Now compare that to even a pack a day smoker - where the entire month would cost around R1100/1200.
> 
> And wonder why people who are just getting off cigs are the most likely to buy clone entry level hardware (and likely clone juices from the same shop)



That does make sense.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Rob Fisher

M.Adhir said:


> To answer the Pico question to an extent:
> 
> As a smoker, when I decided to stop smoking and start vaping, I walked into a vape shop and nearly fell over after hearing prices. Bearing in mind at the time everyone was telling me vaping is cheaper than smoking.
> Then suddenly - pico kit is R850, but you need a battery (150). And a spare battery(150) in case that one dies on you. And an external charger(350), coz it's better to use that. And some spare coils, so you don't run back to smoking coz your coil burnt (200), and flavour - get two at least, one fruity (150) and one tobacco in case you feel for the taste of a smoke(150).
> 
> Now compare that to even a pack a day smoker - where the entire month would cost around R1100.
> 
> And wonder why people who are just getting off cigs are the most likely to buy clone entry level hardware (and likely clone juices from the same shop)



Or they buy a Twisp Cue on special at R400.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Rob Fisher

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> China mall, R450 plus a fake battery



Yip exaclty!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Daniel

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> China mall, R450 plus a fake battery


And that's the problem the fake battery these batteries aren't even rated 10A continuous even a 1ohm coil is going to strain that battery.... Poof.... Needless to say I tuned my less informed colleagues I would PIF them a battery and my old Pico

Reactions: Like 1


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## Daniel

Rob Fisher said:


> Or they buy a Twisp Cue on special at R400.


R350 if you download the app and refer someone

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## M.Adhir

Rob Fisher said:


> Or they buy a Twisp Cue on special at R400.


Sadly, retail staff in general will push the upsell rather than punt the right advice/ device. There are very few that will actually advise correctly if it results in lower sales. There are a few yes, but very few, and far between. I've actually noticed we get much better advice (including a lower sale, but more based on our needs), from store owners. This perhaps points to a training/ skill/ knowledge issue as well- I've had store staff try to sell me dual coils that run at 0.08/0.09, to run on my complyfe.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Daniel

M.Adhir said:


> Sadly, retail staff in general will push the upsell rather than punt the right advice/ device. There are very few that will actually advise correctly if it results in lower sales. There are a few yes, but very few, and far between. I've actually noticed we get much better advice (including a lower sale, but more based on our needs), from store owners. This perhaps points to a training/ skill/ knowledge issue as well- I've had store staff try to sell me dual coils that run at 0.08/0.09, to run on my complyfe.


Yup my biggest pet peeve un educated or even worse educated vape staff selling hardware/juice without actually speaking to the customer and seeing what they want to keep them off the stinkies.....

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Slick

Daniel said:


> R350 if you download the app and refer someone


Is it not R300? 25% off? @Daniel

Reactions: Like 1


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## Slick

While we on this topic can someone please help me with this question,it's been bugging me for a week now,most vendors sell Smok V8 sticks from R500-R700,the other day I passed a small vape/hookah/tobacco shop and saw it marked for R350,do you think there are Smok clones as well? Or is this shop just very cheap? I heard of Eleaf clones but not Smok

Reactions: Like 2


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## M.Adhir

Slick said:


> While we on this topic can someone please help me with this question,it's been bugging me for a week now,most vendors sell Smok V8 sticks from R500-R700,the other day I passed a small vape/hookah/tobacco shop and saw it marked for R350,do you think there are Smok clones as well? Or is this shop just very cheap? I heard of Eleaf clones but not Smok


I've heard of smok clones in the market, so possible.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## Daniel

Slick said:


> Is it not R300? 25% off? @Daniel


You are correct sir lol I almost didn't make Math higher grade  for anyone wanting to get off the stinkies this is a no Brainer!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Rob Fisher

Slick said:


> While we on this topic can someone please help me with this question,it's been bugging me for a week now,most vendors sell Smok V8 sticks from R500-R700,the other day I passed a small vape/hookah/tobacco shop and saw it marked for R350,do you think there are Smok clones as well? Or is this shop just very cheap? I heard of Eleaf clones but not Smok



They are indeed clones! Eleaf and Smok are the most cloned items!

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> @BioHAZarD lets just say I've been part of a few sting operations so I have some experience....but thanks for the optimism...spy mode engaged!


sorry man
clicked too fast 
just woke up from a nap 
all better

Reactions: Like 2


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## Daniel

BioHAZarD said:


> sorry man
> clicked too fast
> just woke up from a nap
> all better


You wanted to click the Dislike button didn't you? It's ok you're forgiven....

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> You wanted to click the Dislike button didn't you? It's ok you're forgiven....


actually the dislike and winner ratings are almost equal distances form one another so now i am just not going to rate it

Reactions: Like 2


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## BioHAZarD

Rob Fisher said:


> Gonna answer each issue by itself if I may... It's not what is legally enforceable... it's more about ethics and what is right. What the cloners are doing is simply not right. Also having just done a patent in the last year myself (software) I can tell you that most of the high-end modders don't have the cash to do that in one country let alone multiple countries... and enforcing the law worldwide is another matter as well. I'm sorry but copying another man's intellectual property like they do is just wrong. Surely you can't argue about that?



Not arguing that is it wrong or right as I have no moral high ground here to preach from. I am only stating the facts. 

Is it expensive to patent. Damn right it is. Why ??? Because you are patenting expensive R&D that went into the fabrication or developing of this product. Do I believe that the R&D that went into vape products fall into this category. Difficult question to answer as there is almost never an enduring benefit to these products. They are once off for the most part and the expected return is for the most part probably not worth the effort as your return would not cover the cost. I would therefore say the market system is against protecting that form of product or again the business model does not cater for year on year sales. Your software for instance, I imagine is designed to exist for quite some time and retain its relevance by way of upgrades, patches etc to extend the shelf-life and so forth. I would therefore conclude that the producers of these items are well aware of the risk they expose themselves too when entering the market.

I would go even further with the mainstream designers and say that they actually could not care given that the product would be obsolete in 6 months time or less given the release schedule that they maintain to fuel the hype train.

So where does this leave us.....Smack bang nowhere.....You want to be nice to the person that designed the product by all means go ahead....Does it actually mean anything....Honestly I don't think so.

Reactions: Like 2


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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> From....


the optimistic rating

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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> @BioHAZarD lets just say I've been part of a few sting operations so I have some experience....but thanks for the optimism...spy mode engaged!(Que some Mission Impossible music)


you are going to be gooing wolke and listening to mission impossible tunes while they shoot you in the head

Reactions: Like 2


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## Rob Fisher

BioHAZarD said:


> Not arguing that is it wrong or right as I have no moral high ground here to preach from. I am only stating the facts.
> 
> Is it expensive to patent. Damn right it is. Why ??? Because you are patenting expensive R&D that went into the fabrication or developing of this product. Do I believe that the R&D that went into vape products fall into this category. Difficult question to answer as there is almost never an enduring benefit to these products. They are once off for the most part and the expected return is for the most part probably not worth the effort as your return would not cover the cost. I would therefore say the market system is against protecting that form of product or again the business model does not cater for year on year sales. Your software for instance, I imagine is designed to exist for quite some time and retain its relevance by way of upgrades, patches etc to extend the shelf-life and so forth. I would therefore conclude that the producers of these items are well aware of the risk they expose themselves too when entering the market.
> 
> I would go even further with the mainstream designers and say that they actually could not care given that the product would be obsolete in 6 months time or less given the release schedule that they maintain to fuel the hype train.
> 
> So where does this leave us.....Smack bang nowhere.....You want to be nice to the person that designed the product by all means go ahead....Does it actually mean anything....Honestly I don't think so.



I think the fact is that copying someone else's work is wrong.

Reactions: Like 2


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## BioHAZarD

Rob Fisher said:


> You intimate that I'm talking about the bigger vape vendors... I'm not. I'm talking about specific vape shops that have never ever sold a clone and who are now finding it hard to make ends meet because of the unscrupulous shops who are not dedicated vape shops selling clone Pico's and fake juice right on their doorstep. And of course it's not solely due to the clones and fake juice but they are certainly having a big impact. The fact is these unscrupulous sellers are stuffing up the market...



Let us speak plainly then.
To date, reputable vendors in SA have for the most part cashed in on clone sales in a huge way. That is not speculation. That is a fact, given that all the products were available for the world to see on their websites and by default then in their stores as well. Now that we have established that point we can further conclude that the market was therefore already fairly saturated by said clone sales and everybody was living happily ever after, expanding and smiling happily to themselves about the fat profits they were making (vendors now).

I don't want to be rude or anything BUT the vendors are 100% to blame for the situation that the little guys are sitting in. Now that this NCZ has started it has mostly likely just created hot spots where clones are being sold in larger quantities than before due to the previously mentioned group of vendors not satisfying the market demand for clones.

I am sorry but that is the honest truth and most likely the view of the general forum (i could of course be totally wrong but then ask yourself....how did all those clones sell out so fast in repeated instances)and putting this spin of IP and the little man on it does the initiative no good and adds absolutely no validity to the cause it is pursuing.

If you want to succeed the vendors that started this whole mess in the first place needs to fix it..... how they do that..... no easy solution

Reactions: Like 3


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## BioHAZarD

Rob Fisher said:


> You may not care about Joe Average... but I do... I care about the Vaping game from start to finish and these issues are mudding the water and certainly are of no help to the cause at all.


I can graciously give you that point.
I can be overly harsh at times. Comes with the job 
But nobody can say you are not an advocate for the community.

Reactions: Like 2 | Thanks 1


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## BioHAZarD

@Rob Fisher have i caught up now?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## BioHAZarD

Rob Fisher said:


> I think the fact is that copying someone else's work is wrong.


we are saying the same thing but in a different way.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## RichJB

BioHAZarD said:


> I would go even further with the mainstream designers and say that they actually could not care given that the product would be obsolete in 6 months time or less given the release schedule that they maintain to fuel the hype train.



How long will that sustain, though? We saw this with computers. When I first started computing in the early 1990s, I went from 286 to 386 to 486 to Pentium in almost as many years. You literally needed a hardware upgrade every six months: more RAM, better graphics card, bigger HD. And then you also had to upgrade your modem: 9600, 14k, 28k, 56k and so on. 

Nowadays, PC specs have leveled off a lot. You can buy a current PC and it's still totally useful five years down the line. I think vape gear will too. Already the JUUL is showing much more longevity than previous devices.

Still, the costs of IP protection and dealing with regulation, along with economies of scale, will see the industry rationalise heavily towards the inevitable capitalist model of half-a-dozen giant players.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## BioHAZarD

RichJB said:


> How long will that sustain, though? We saw this with computers. When I first started computing in the early 1990s, I went from 286 to 386 to 486 to Pentium in almost as many years. You literally needed a hardware upgrade every six months: more RAM, better graphics card, bigger HD. And then you also had to upgrade your modem: 9600, 14k, 28k, 56k and so on.
> 
> Nowadays, PC specs have leveled off a lot. You can buy a current PC and it's still totally useful five years down the line. I think vape gear will too. Already the JUUL is showing much more longevity than previous devices.
> 
> Still, the costs of IP protection and dealing with regulation, along with economies of scale, will see the industry rationalise heavily towards the inevitable capitalist model of half-a-dozen giant players.



Very good point.

You will actually find that the computer market has become extremely polarised with end users being much more informed than in prior years.

On the one hand you would find tech requirements to be reasonably stagnant for large corporations in that they would keep pc's and laptops for a good couple of years and only do an unscheduled major upgrade if their were specific unavoidable OS requirements.

Then you sit with a whole host of gamers that come in all shapes and sizes that command various sectors of the market and rightly so given that the vendors are catering for them specifically. You would have the high end fanboy that will spend as much as he can on new tech. They are clearly the smallest percentage. The midrange gamer is where they make their money. This game would stretch his upgrades as far as possible and woule purchase the best bang for buck product.

Now you sit with the developers that feed the hype that controls the market. A high end GFX means nothing it a game can't utilise it. The current iteration is however a prime example where they dropped the ball in a huge way. Queue Ray Tracing and the lack of support at release date. Huge anticipation with pre orders racing out on a promise. Which was not really fulfilled. A wicked cycle and it will keep repeating itself while the hype is being fueled 

The large players will not be slowing down their development cycles anytime soon. The industry demands it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rob Fisher

BioHAZarD said:


> Let us speak plainly then.
> To date, reputable vendors in SA have for the most part cashed in on clone sales in a huge way. That is not speculation. That is a fact, given that all the products were available for the world to see on their websites and by default then in their stores as well. Now that we have established that point we can further conclude that the market was therefore already fairly saturated by said clone sales and everybody was living happily ever after, expanding and smiling happily to themselves about the fat profits they were making (vendors now).
> 
> I don't want to be rude or anything BUT the vendors are 100% to blame for the situation that the little guys are sitting in. Now that this NCZ has started it has mostly likely just created hot spots where clones are being sold in larger quantities than before due to the previously mentioned group of vendors not satisfying the market demand for clones.
> 
> I am sorry but that is the honest truth and most likely the view of the general forum (i could of course be totally wrong but then ask yourself....how did all those clones sell out so fast in repeated instances)and putting this spin of IP and the little man on it does the initiative no good and adds absolutely no validity to the cause it is pursuing.
> 
> If you want to succeed the vendors that started this whole mess in the first place needs to fix it..... how they do that..... no easy solution



Agreed the vendors are to blame... but I think the reason that a lot of the established vendors are no longer doing clones is that the market has reached a point where there are plenty of good authentic reasonably priced products to satisfy the market and they stocked clones to satisfy the market (and it was never right)... but yes I concede that a lot of vendors (but not all) started the problem in the first place. 

But it's got nothing to do with big and small vendors... for me anyway... big and small stocked clones before and big and small stock clones now...

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## BioHAZarD

@Rob Fisher

Has this just become a discussion between you and me 

I find that so funny i am actually laughing harder than when I posted the role play post between you and @Daniel. And that was really really funny

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rob Fisher

BioHAZarD said:


> @Rob Fisher
> 
> Has this just become a discussion between you and me
> 
> I find that so funny i am actually laughing harder than when I posted the role play post between you and @Daniel. And that was really really funny



I guess everyone has gone to sleep... and that's where I should be heading after driving back from PTA today... but I missed my Vape Cave and need to catch up... but I'm going down fast now...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BioHAZarD

Rob Fisher said:


> I guess everyone has gone to sleep... and that's where I should be heading after driving back from PTA today... but I missed my Vape Cave and need to catch up... but I'm going down fast now...


Its been a long day ... another couple of hours and then bed

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Rob Fisher

BioHAZarD said:


> Its been a long day ... another couple of hours and then bed



For me, it will be a couple more minutes... I try and hit the sack by pumpkin time.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## lesvaches

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Listen Mina Moo, you can dislike all my post, Constand Bester will proof you wrong​


aren't you supposed to burning something down somewhere "in the name of da peoples"

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## kev mac

At the risk of my personal well being i offer my 2cents.While I completely sympathise with copy infringement against the developer the people that sell the merchandise are not blameless in the clone war.When I started vapeing about 5 yrs ago I was floored when I saw RDAs going for upwards of 150 bucks.I mean it's a few grams of aluminum for God's sake with no moving parts.And I know many will say "well they had to design it and manufacturer etc.Yes that's true but they didn't invent a perpetual motion machine. So with the prices being asked for an authentic piece it was only a matter of time until clones came on the scene.And I while I don't accept the BMW analogy I'm not passing judgment on anyone only saying that the exorbitant prices for authentic early in the vape game had a hand in clones as we have them today.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 1


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## Armed

Slick said:


> While we on this topic can someone please help me with this question,it's been bugging me for a week now,most vendors sell Smok V8 sticks from R500-R700,the other day I passed a small vape/hookah/tobacco shop and saw it marked for R350,do you think there are Smok clones as well? Or is this shop just very cheap? I heard of Eleaf clones but not Smok


I sell hardware on the side. For a v8. If you paying 600-700 they ripping you of. If you paying 350 it's a knock off

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Dela Rey Steyn

OK, my 2c (think we are close to a Rand here with all the 2c so far)(also, please ignore any grammar/syntax mistakes as English is my second most delicious language)

I was one of the first people to join the NCZ group on FB, I thought it was great initiative. I'm regularly ousting sellers of fake juice on FB and as far as I go I warn people against the dangers of using these fake juices and fake Pico/Smok/Kangertech mods and cheap batteries. I was overjoyed that it wasn't going to be just me ranting on FB anymore. I never ousted these peddlers of "death juice" because i thought that 'Nasty might not be able to pay it's bonuses this year' if I didn't, I did it because it poses a major health risk to people that made a conscious decision to live healthier. So when the first complaint about HE gear being cloned and sold for cheaper was posted, I didn't pay it much attention, it takes all sorts to win a war. But then quickly the posts on the group turned to HE Hand checks and people parading expensive mods (In my entire time on the group, I saw maybe 3 posts of people with "Regular" mid-level gear chiming in and showing support) I made a post about helping people with mid-level gear that perform close to HE originals that we could use to suggest to people as alternatives to "clones", if i remember correctly i got about 4-5 responses, and it went in the direction of "Can't compare a Audi to a Beetle" even though I specified I wasn't looking for mid-range that out performed or performed the same as HE, just devices similar in performance. But the HE crowd seems to not like the fact that there might be "cheaper" devices that could out perform their Expensive Devices. And then when it came to the Chubby Gorilla bottles, I lost all interest. The bottles were "for now" a non-issue as the single local supplier of said bottles could not service everyone. So when he does, must all juice makers now use the single South African supplier or be boycotted?
OEM bottles for me leak less in anyway. So although I think the NCZ group was started with great intentions, it became Elitist and Cadre Uplifting very quickly in my humble opinion.

sorry for the "emotional" and non-factional post, but the facts have been stated before in this thread, HE manufacturers develop limited quantities to ensure exclusivity, and I see in no way how Kennedy or the likes are going to suffer due to china clones, as they sell out their stock fairly quickly.

If the initiative turns to the support of stopping dangerous devices and juice, count me back in, but i'm not going to lose sleep over someone buying a R500 Dwarv clone. 

Also, there is a well know vendor on here that has helped so many new and existing vapers with advice and getting the right equipment etc, he's PIF a few items to people that needed it and is always helpful, he sells good quality clones in his store, am I to boycott him now because he sells them? So i should rather support the obnoxious and money grubby shops because they have some "Moral supremacy" to that vendor? Hell no I wont. I support the people that actually support the community and not just their bank accounts. No use in throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 12 | Informative 1


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## BioHAZarD

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> OK, my 2c (think we are close to a Rand here with all the 2c so far)(also, please ignore any grammar/syntax mistakes as English is my second most delicious language)
> 
> I was one of the first people to join the NCZ group on FB, I thought it was great initiative. I'm regularly ousting sellers of fake juice on FB and as far as I go I warn people against the dangers of using these fake juices and fake Pico/Smok/Kangertech mods and cheap batteries. I was overjoyed that it wasn't going to be just me ranting on FB anymore. I never ousted these peddlers of "death juice" because i thought that 'Nasty might not be able to pay it's bonuses this year' if I didn't, I did it because it poses a major health risk to people that made a conscious decision to live healthier. So when the first complaint about HE gear being cloned and sold for cheaper was posted, I didn't pay it much attention, it takes all sorts to win a war. But then quickly the posts on the group turned to HE Hand checks and people parading expensive mods (In my entire time on the group, I saw maybe 3 posts of people with "Regular" mid-level gear chiming in and showing support) I made a post about helping people with mid-level gear that perform close to HE originals that we could use to suggest to people as alternatives to "clones", if i remember correctly i got about 4-5 responses, and it went in the direction of "Can't compare a Audi to a Beetle" even though I specified I wasn't looking for mid-range that out performed or performed the same as HE, just devices similar in performance. But the HE crowd seems to not like the fact that there might be "cheaper" devices that could out perform their Expensive Devices. And then when it came to the Chubby Gorilla bottles, I lost all interest. The bottles were "for now" a non-issue as the single local supplier of said bottles could not service everyone. So when he does, must all juice makers now use the single South African supplier or be boycotted?
> OEM bottles for me leak less in anyway. So although I think the NCZ group was started with great intentions, it became Elitist and Cadre Uplifting very quickly in my humble opinion.
> 
> sorry for the "emotional" and non-factional post, but the facts have been stated before in this thread, HE manufacturers develop limited quantities to ensure exclusivity, and I see in no way how Kennedy or the likes are going to suffer due to china clones, as they sell out their stock fairly quickly.
> 
> If the initiative turns to the support of stopping dangerous devices and juice, count me back in, but i'm not going to lose sleep over someone buying a R500 Dwarv clone.
> 
> Also, there is a well know vendor on here that has helped so many new and existing vapers with advice and getting the right equipment etc, he's PIF a few items to people that needed it and is always helpful, he sells good quality clones in his store, am I to boycott him now because he sells them? So i should rather support the obnoxious and money grubby shops because they have some "Moral supremacy" to that vendor? Hell no I wont. I support the people that actually support the community and not just their bank accounts. No use in throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


That's the beauty of it... they can't claim moral supremacy

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## BioHAZarD

Armed said:


> I sell hardware on the side. For a v8. If you paying 600-700 they ripping you of. If you paying 350 it's a knock off


Or they have better import contacts

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## jm10

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> But then quickly the posts on the group turned to HE Hand checks and people parading expensive mods (In my entire time on the group, I saw maybe 3 posts of people with "Regular" mid-level gear chiming in and showing support) I made a post about helping people with mid-level gear that perform close to HE originals that we could use to suggest to people as alternatives to "clones", if i remember correctly i got about 4-5 responses, and it went in the direction of "Can't compare a Audi to a Beetle" even though I specified I wasn't looking for mid-range that out performed or performed the same as HE, just devices similar in performance. But the HE crowd seems to not like the fact that there might be "cheaper" devices that could out perform their Expensive Devices.
> 
> .



You see that is were the confusion is, most of the people including those in the NCZ are confused about the cause, they seem to think this is HE vs clones(i thought the same) 

I got quiet upset to the fact that people are been made to feel inferior because they did not have the HE hand checks or gear. 

Now for me more clarity needs to be made about what is going on, so that the people do know themselves and can educated people not just say it was my choice to join and thats that..... 

I do believe it became an elitist thing for allot of the NCZ members because like you said there was mainly HE hand checks, why would no one post there normal to mid tier range?

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## Rob Fisher

NCZ was never an elitist group... it's simply about authentic gear and juice.

Reactions: Like 3


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## jm10

Armed said:


> I sell hardware on the side. For a v8. If you paying 600-700 they ripping you of. If you paying 350 it's a knock off



You have to take into account buying power, trust me i was in the import and distribution game with the Chinese for a long time supplying Edcon/truworths/Woolys/Mr Price .....you think 200% mark up is allot then you have allot to learn. 

Imagine if one vendor has the rights and distribution of smok, they are buying in the thousand if not tens of thousands of products a month and distributing to everyone, no one can buy direct because of agreements between the distributor and manufacturer. 

They could sell it less themselves then they sell to other vendors but this would backfire because you cant kill who you supply to. 

They only way to tell if fake is by verifying the authenticity(scratch and see) or if the shop is in china mall.

Reactions: Like 1


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## jm10

Rob Fisher said:


> NCZ was never an elitist group... it's simply about authentic gear and juice.



Oh no i get that now Rob i really do, i just think allot of people need to understand that

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## Daniel

jm10 said:


> Oh no i get that now Rob i really do, i just think allot of people need to understand that



The only people that don't understand that are the ones that are shouting "Elitists!" or "HE bastards!" 

Same discrimination works the other way round (NCZ as uncle RoB said was never about this....) , why must I be labeled if I choose to spend my money on higher tier vape gear and be called all kinds of names ?

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## Puff the Magic Dragon

Rob Fisher said:


> There is no difference between vape gear and any other new goods you would bring into the country. So technically you should declare presents you bring into the country.
> 
> If it was my in-laws I would get them to open the parcels and bring them in as their own personal vape gear.



This is taken from another thread. 

Just my 2c worth *(plus VAT)*

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## jm10

Daniel said:


> The only people that don't understand that are the ones that are shouting "Elitists!" or "HE bastards!"
> 
> Same discrimination works the other way round (NCZ as uncle Ron said was never about this....) , why must I be labeled if I choose to spend my money on higher tier vape gear and be called all kinds of names ?



Thought we left the emotions at the door....

Im going to stay on topic here, this is the first time we are hearing the full description of the NCZ and i like it, I’m not fighting the cause I AM FOR IT, you need to realise one thing Daniel, I’m un biased and was under the assumption that this was a war on HE Clones, as did many) 

What you seem to misunderstand is no one cares what you buy, but its when the average joe was made to feel unwelcome here with his clones ****** this was before i was educated on the NCZ and came around******

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## jm10

So you see Daniel, it took a few adult words from Rob to educate me and join the cause,

You seem to get to emotionally involved and this makes the NCZ seem arrogant which is not what Rob wants... 

So instead of fighting and losing your temper at me continuously(its cool that you have a problem with me, it makes me laugh) educate people on the error of their ways

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## Daniel

jm10 said:


> Thought we left the emotions at the door....
> 
> Im going to stay on topic here, this is the first time we are hearing the full description of the NCZ and i like it, I’m not fighting the cause I AM FOR IT, you need to realise one thing Daniel, I’m un biased and was under the assumption that this was a war on HE Clones, as did many)
> 
> What you seem to misunderstand is no one cares what you buy, but its when the average joe was made to feel unwelcome here with his clones ****** this was before i was educated on the NCZ and came around******



No emotion here ..... merely stating what's good for the gander .... and again , I am still to see ANY posts of anyone (let alone the "HE crowd") making anyone feel unwelcome because they using clone hardware. 

People are very quick to assume , but we all need to be responsible in what we say on the forum (especially these days with the Legislation looming and vaping under the spotlight) before going off on a tangent and making assumptions (myself included).

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## Daniel

jm10 said:


> So you see Daniel, it took a few adult words from Rob to educate me and join the cause,
> 
> You seem to get to emotionally involved and this makes the NCZ seem arrogant which is not what Rob wants...
> 
> So instead of fighting and losing your temper at me continuously(its cool that you have a problem with me, it makes me laugh) educate people on the error of their ways



Don't put words in my mouth I didn't say  , I never said I had a problem with you personally , not once. 
I did react to a lot of things said , about me yes ...which in hindsight was the wrong thing to do (and I apologized to the community) , which is why I refrained from commenting even after being the "topic" of discussion for probably 4 pages (I'm flattered , really  ) 

I will be ignoring this thread , as I think everything has been cleared with regards to the NCZ ... so there is no real added value to this besides everyone airing additional frustrations or trying to prove their point.

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## BioHAZarD

I have absolutely zero problem with NCZ. 

Having said that I have a huge problem with the vendors that got the community into this position in the first place. Probably not entirely the vendors fault as they were responding to user demand. 

This is not a HE vs clone debate. Some members may want to make it that and I disagree. I think my views on this have been made apparent in the previous posts. The vendors themeselves have a lot to answer for and I don't for a moment believe that by simply joining NCZ they are absolved for their part in this fiasco.

I therfore remain prochoice as I don't want to associate myself with vendors that bend as the wind blows.

Reactions: Like 4


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## jm10

Daniel said:


> No emotion here ..... merely stating what's good for the gander .... and again , I am still to see ANY posts of anyone (let alone the "HE crowd") making anyone feel unwelcome because they using clone hardware.
> 
> People are very quick to assume , but we all need to be responsible in what we say on the forum (especially these days with the Legislation looming and vaping under the spotlight) before going off on a tangent and making assumptions (myself included).



** please read everything i wrote below, not just bits***


If things are never made it clear then assumptions will be drawn wouldn’t you agree?

Like i have said Daniel, from my viewing of the NCZ i thought it was HE vs clone because there was no evidence to prove otherwise, 

After the explanation from Rob, all is clear now and we can fight a common goal. 

At the end of the day the Vendors are at fault here, the vendors caused all this hostility we have shown to each other so we should shine the light on that.
They need to take responsibility for the clone wars and they need to push and educate the people now. 

In my view, Rob is doing a job they should of done themselves because they were the ones that cashed in on clones and brought the clones here. They cannot now say all is good because they are NCZ memebers, no they need to go public and campaign and advertise against clones. To date i have not seen any advertising for anti cloning excepts Robs attempts with the NCZ,

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## BioHAZarD

I would also like to request that this thread remain open for it has not yet served its full purpose I think.

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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> I would also like to request that this thread remain open for it has not yet served its full purpose I think.



Agreed, very enlightening thread.

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## Dela Rey Steyn

I've said(most) of what I wanted to say. If you guys need me to help burn down a shop selling unsafe fake e-juice or need help breaking the kneecaps of a peddler of dangerous fake mods, let me know and I'm there. I'm still collecting my SXK BB this weekend

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## Daniel

I will be deleting my irrelevant comments and rants ... i suggest everyone else does the same to make the [USERGROUP=3]@Admins[/USERGROUP] team work easier

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Christos

@jm10 and @BioHAZarD,
I have been called many names and many assumptions have been made towards myself over the years e.g. elitist and condescending.
I still maintain that there is no such thing as LE gear as the term was coined a while back.

I have made a decision to support only shops that are counterfeit free a good year ago and the guys I generally support had the clone free stance from the beginning of their business as part of their business plan.

I personally feel I get judged (which does not bother me 1 bit) because I chose to only buy authentic gear.

I do not specifically buy HE but rather quality devices that have an element of longevity e.g. a mod with a lifetime guarantee as my aim is fine tune a device and use it for a long time.

Some of my gear is exclusive but it is because I have enjoyed the vape from said atty so much that I had to get more of the same thing. 
The bulk of my "exclusive" atties are not for everyone as it's not their vape style and also are about 2 or 3 years old. 


I also want to add that I personally have no issues with people using clone devices as it's their choice and the main aim as always is to stop smoking.

I will also not deny that there are people that post items as a show of their status but I can assure you there are not many and the few don't typically last the test of time in any community. 

There are many great enthusiasts in this community and I can appreciate our love (and hate) that we have and would encourage and facilitate constructive debates where possible.

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## jm10

Christos said:


> @jm10 and @BioHAZarD,
> I have been called many names and many assumptions have been made towards myself over the years e.g. elitist and condescending.
> I still maintain that there is no such thing as LE gear as the term was coined a while back.
> 
> I have made a decision to support only shops that are counterfeit free a good year ago and the guys I generally support had the clone free stance from the beginning of their business as part of their business plan.
> 
> I personally feel I get judged (which does not bother me 1 bit) because I chose to only buy authentic gear.
> 
> I do not specifically buy HE but rather quality devices that have an element of longevity e.g. a mod with a lifetime guarantee as my aim is fine tune a device and use it for a long time.
> 
> Some of my gear is exclusive but it is because I have enjoyed the vape from said atty so much that I had to get more of the same thing.
> The bulk of my "exclusive" atties are not for everyone as it's not their vape style and also are about 2 or 3 years old.
> 
> 
> I also want to add that I personally have no issues with people using clone devices as it's their choice and the main aim as always is to stop smoking.
> 
> I will also not deny that there are people that post items as a show of their status but I can assure you there are not many and the few don't typically last the test of time in any community.
> 
> There are many great enthusiasts in this community and I can appreciate our love (and hate) that we have and would encourage and facilitate constructive debates where possible.



Totally agree with you and your stance. 

I enjoy seeing HE products posted, its exciting and beautiful to look at and i dont hold anything against anyone with HE, i want them all!!! And to see something exclusive is awesome.

No judgement from me or at anyone at all, i choose to buy authentic because of personal reasons. 

I dont really have an issue with a bit of a show of, If someone is so insecure that they become jealous thats their issue.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Pixstar

BioHAZarD said:


> Let us speak plainly then.
> To date, reputable vendors in SA have for the most part cashed in on clone sales in a huge way. That is not speculation. That is a fact, given that all the products were available for the world to see on their websites and by default then in their stores as well. Now that we have established that point we can further conclude that the market was therefore already fairly saturated by said clone sales and everybody was living happily ever after, expanding and smiling happily to themselves about the fat profits they were making (vendors now).
> 
> I don't want to be rude or anything BUT the vendors are 100% to blame for the situation that the little guys are sitting in. Now that this NCZ has started it has mostly likely just created hot spots where clones are being sold in larger quantities than before due to the previously mentioned group of vendors not satisfying the market demand for clones.
> 
> I am sorry but that is the honest truth and most likely the view of the general forum (i could of course be totally wrong but then ask yourself....how did all those clones sell out so fast in repeated instances)and putting this spin of IP and the little man on it does the initiative no good and adds absolutely no validity to the cause it is pursuing.
> 
> If you want to succeed the vendors that started this whole mess in the first place needs to fix it..... how they do that..... no easy solution


I recall a thread on the forum about a year or so ago that asked vendors to put their names down if they were clone free vendors. Wasn't a very long list If I recall correctly...Personally I know of only one that has never stocked clones...obviously there may be more.

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## Christos

Pixstar said:


> I recall a thread on the forum about a year or so ago that asked vendors to put their names down if they were clone free vendors. Wasn't a very long list If I recall correctly...Personally I know of only one that has never stocked clones...obviously there may be more.


That was my thread as buying from vendors who don't stock clones was very challenging. 
I resorted to acquiring good I wanted internationally. 
Totally my own point of view and my own decision. 
A warranty on an authentic device or atty is worth more to me that a R500 paperweight from my experience.

Things may have changed but my desire for quality and longevity remains the same. 
A big thing for me is after sales support and I will generally rather pay a premium for that knowing it's available.

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## baksteen8168

Finally caught up.

From my side I can say that I have a much clearer picture of what NCZ is trying to achieve. Before @Rob Fisher posted it just looked like a couple of individuals were starting a movement based on their dissatisfaction of their HE gear being cloned. 

If I may go off topic a bit, could @Rob Fisher (as you said you know a lot of HE manufacturers personally) help me understand the following?

I know this isn't a HE discussion, but I still struggle to see how some devices have such exorbitant prices. Let me use vehicles to better explain my point. I get the difference in price from a Datsun to a BMW (with more tech in the BMW as well as a lot more creature comforts), but I struggle to see why a Lamborghini Huracan is R5.8mil while the Audi R8 (that shares a lot of the same parts - Including engine) costs R2.8mil. Now, Lets compare 2 mods - The SolarStorm DNA75C against a Lost Vape Therion DNA75C. The SS goes for around $750 while the Therion sits aroun $160. I don't get why there is a massive difference in price? Sure, the SS is made out of Stab wood and has semi precious stones for buttons so lets say $350 or even $400 would probably be reasonable. What's the other $300 for? exclusivity? Maybe I am missing something as I am not in the manufacturing or sales world.

Please don't think I am knocking HE devices and I apologize if I am coming across as ignorant, I just genuinely want to understand where the pricing comes from.

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## Christos

jm10 said:


> Totally agree with you and your stance.
> 
> I enjoy seeing HE products posted, its exciting and beautiful to look at and i dont hold anything against anyone with HE, i want them all!!! And to see something exclusive is awesome.
> 
> No judgement from me or at anyone at all, i choose to buy authentic because of personal reasons.
> 
> I dont really have an issue with a bit of a show of, If someone is so insecure that they become jealous thats their issue.


In the HE community a lot of people buy for their own personal enjoyment and preference reasons but there are individuals as in any community that buy for the wrong reasons. How often do you hear of someone who spends ridiculous amounts of cash on something only to moan about how rubbish it is? 

I would encourage anyone to first find what works for them the best and as cheaply as possible before looking at making any high value purchases for FOMO reasons etc.

If a twisp cue works for the individual then great! Having expensive gear does not imply having a better vape than anyone else IMHO. I recall people giving me uphill for buying a reo as it was considered by some as a very expensive mech but a reo outlived all of my regulated devices at the time and I was indeed after a device that didn't break Aster 3 months. 

I know my atties are considered rubbish to a lot of people who have tried them (even the clone ones are no longer in people's possession as they consider it rubbish) but they are the best for my style and my requirements.

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## Christos

baksteen8168 said:


> Finally caught up.
> 
> From my side I can say that I have a much clearer picture of what NCZ is trying to achieve. Before @Rob Fisher posted it just looked like a couple of individuals were starting a movement based on their dissatisfaction of their HE gear being cloned.
> 
> If I may go off topic a bit, could @Rob Fisher (as you said you know a lot of HE manufacturers personally) help me understand the following?
> 
> I know this isn't a HE discussion, but I still struggle to see how some devices have such exorbitant prices. Let me use vehicles to better explain my point. I get the difference in price from a Datsun to a BMW (with more tech in the BMW as well as a lot more creature comforts), but I struggle to see why a Lamborghini Huracan is R5.8mil while the Audi R8 (that shares a lot of the same parts - Including engine) costs R2.8mil. Now, Lets compare 2 mods - The SolarStorm DNA75C against a Lost Vape Therion DNA75C. The SS goes for around $750 while the Therion sits aroun $160. I don't get why there is a massive difference in price? Sure, the SS is made out of Stab wood and has semi precious stones for buttons so lets say $350 or even $400 would probably be reasonable. What's the other $300 for? exclusivity? Maybe I am missing something as I am not in the manufacturing or sales world.
> 
> Please don't think I am knocking HE devices and I apologize if I am coming across as ignorant, I just genuinely want to understand where the pricing comes from.


I can give you some feedback from my side.
The narda IMHO is a great single coil atty that doesn't leak on me and gives me a great flavour experience with different juices.

Is it expensive? Yes 100 USD. Is it readily available? No. The guy who makes them makes 100 each month and sells them to people on his waiting list.

The fact here is that he designed each atty himself and manufactured each one himself.
Yes his QC costs are high as he is a one man show but I would rather buy his atty than a 20usd atty as I love the flavour his atties give me. Also I don't mind waiting for my spot in his waiting list as I understand his method of operating. 
Bottom line is I pay for his individual attention knowing very well that if he automated and went the mass production route he could make the atties for a lot less.

@Rob Fisher IMHO appreciates hand made items that are unique and is more likely to pay a premium for individual attention and marvel at the crafts of others.

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## Rob Fisher

@baksteen8168 no need to apologise... those are all valid questions...

The bottom line is it's the pursuit of beautiful things that are a little exclusive and rare and that work really well. The same can be said of a Rolex watch that tells the same time as an R200 watch from the flea market... or a Ferrari that will take you to the shop just like a VW Beetle will. Actually, the Ferarri is a bad example because I tried to buy a Magnum PI Ferrari once and I didn't fit in it and a VW Beetle would have suited me better. I have worked hard during my life and was lucky enough to have started two businesses that ending up doing very well and the result is that now in my retirement I'm able to buy the finer things in life and travel.

I love things with an intrinsic value... like the Solar Storm which is made by hand... it's a thing of beauty and every time I pick it up to use it I think of the time and effort and expertise that Nicholas Foo put into making it for me personally.

The same with the Dvarw which is made by Peter in Hungary and if you chatted to him you would know how passionate he is about his RTA's and the excitement he gets when people send him a message saying thank you for creating it.

And to answer the difference between the Lost Vape Mirage (which is a great mod) vs the Solar Storm... it's a case of labour costs which are high and of course the costly raw materials. The Mirage is mass produced by machines in massive quantities which reduces the price and the Solar Storm takes about a week to make and he can only make one a week and not thousands a week as Lost Vape do.

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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

The another 300$ is for 10 hours of labours work he puts in @30$ an hour. 
When the same device is mass produced this cost gets divided over several units. That's why mass produced items are cheaper. 

Sent from aPhone

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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

Christos said:


> @jm10 and @BioHAZarD,
> I have been called many names and many assumptions have been made towards myself over the years e.g. elitist and condescending.
> I still maintain that there is no such thing as LE gear as the term was coined a while back.
> 
> I have made a decision to support only shops that are counterfeit free a good year ago and the guys I generally support had the clone free stance from the beginning of their business as part of their business plan.
> 
> I personally feel I get judged (which does not bother me 1 bit) because I chose to only buy authentic gear.
> 
> I do not specifically buy HE but rather quality devices that have an element of longevity e.g. a mod with a lifetime guarantee as my aim is fine tune a device and use it for a long time.
> 
> Some of my gear is exclusive but it is because I have enjoyed the vape from said atty so much that I had to get more of the same thing.
> The bulk of my "exclusive" atties are not for everyone as it's not their vape style and also are about 2 or 3 years old.
> 
> 
> I also want to add that I personally have no issues with people using clone devices as it's their choice and the main aim as always is to stop smoking.
> 
> I will also not deny that there are people that post items as a show of their status but I can assure you there are not many and the few don't typically last the test of time in any community.
> 
> There are many great enthusiasts in this community and I can appreciate our love (and hate) that we have and would encourage and facilitate constructive debates where possible.


Completely agree with u on the low end-LE point, there is no low end devices, it's just mass produced that's why costs less.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## jm10

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> Completely agree with u on the low end-LE point, there is no low end devices, it's just mass produced that's why costs less.



Ahhh so MP and HE

Reactions: Like 1


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## BioHAZarD

Christos said:


> @jm10 and @BioHAZarD,
> I have been called many names and many assumptions have been made towards myself over the years e.g. elitist and condescending.
> I still maintain that there is no such thing as LE gear as the term was coined a while back.
> 
> I have made a decision to support only shops that are counterfeit free a good year ago and the guys I generally support had the clone free stance from the beginning of their business as part of their business plan.
> 
> I personally feel I get judged (which does not bother me 1 bit) because I chose to only buy authentic gear.
> 
> I do not specifically buy HE but rather quality devices that have an element of longevity e.g. a mod with a lifetime guarantee as my aim is fine tune a device and use it for a long time.
> 
> Some of my gear is exclusive but it is because I have enjoyed the vape from said atty so much that I had to get more of the same thing.
> The bulk of my "exclusive" atties are not for everyone as it's not their vape style and also are about 2 or 3 years old.
> 
> 
> I also want to add that I personally have no issues with people using clone devices as it's their choice and the main aim as always is to stop smoking.
> 
> I will also not deny that there are people that post items as a show of their status but I can assure you there are not many and the few don't typically last the test of time in any community.
> 
> There are many great enthusiasts in this community and I can appreciate our love (and hate) that we have and would encourage and facilitate constructive debates where possible.


I will call you names no matter what gear you use ... don't ever worry about that.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 4


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## baksteen8168

Christos said:


> I can give you some feedback from my side.
> The narda IMHO is a great single coil atty that doesn't leak on me and gives me a great flavour experience with different juices.
> 
> Is it expensive? Yes 100 USD. Is it readily available? No. The guy who makes them makes 100 each month and sells them to people on his waiting list.
> 
> The fact here is that he designed each atty himself and manufactured each one himself.
> Yes his QC costs are high as he is a one man show but I would rather buy his atty than a 20usd atty as I love the flavour his atties give me. Also I don't mind waiting for my spot in his waiting list as I understand his method of operating.
> Bottom line is I pay for his individual attention knowing very well that if he automated and went the mass production route he could make the atties for a lot less.
> 
> @Rob Fisher IMHO appreciates hand made items that are unique and is more likely to pay a premium for individual attention and marvel at the crafts of others.





Rob Fisher said:


> @baksteen8168 no need to apologise... those are all valid questions...
> 
> The bottom line is it's the pursuit of beautiful things that are a little exclusive and rare and that work really well. The same can be said of a Rolex watch that tells the same time as an R200 watch from the flea market... or a Ferrari that will take you to the shop just like a VW Beetle will. Actually, the Ferarri is a bad example because I tried to buy a Magnum PI Ferrari once and I didn't fit in it and a VW Beetle would have suited me better. I have worked hard during my life and was lucky enough to have started two businesses that ending up doing very well and the result is that now in my retirement I'm able to buy the finer things in life and travel.
> 
> I love things with an intrinsic value... like the Solar Storm which is made by hand... it's a thing of beauty and every time I pick it up to use it I think of the time and effort and expertise that Nicholas Foo put into making it for me personally.
> 
> The same with the Dvarw which is made by Peter in Hungary and if you chatted to him you would know how passionate he is about his RTA's and the excitement he gets when people send him a message saying thank you for creating it.
> 
> And to answer the difference between the Lost Vape Mirage (which is a great mod) vs the Solar Storm... it's a case of labour costs which are high and of course the costly raw materials. The Mirage is mass produced by machines in massive quantities which reduces the price and the Solar Storm takes about a week to make and he can only make one a week and not thousands a week as Lost Vape do.





Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> The another 300$ is for 10 hours of labours work he puts in @30$ an hour.
> When the same device is mass produced this cost gets divided over several units. That's why mass produced items are cheaper.
> 
> Sent from aPhone



Ah, I understand now. Makes much more sense why it would be more if it's individually produced rather than mass produced. Thanks guys

Reactions: Like 3


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> This is taken from another thread.
> 
> Just my 2c worth *(plus VAT)*


This is the most important post on this thread.
The same person that says cloning and buying clones is not the right thing to do. 
That say people that cloner "dont give a shit" for other people's intellectual property, or the vaping community.

The same person not only suggest to be unethical but to actually break the law by not declaring something at customs. So is that the right thing do? Do you "give a shit" for your country and its laws. That same laws that sort of protect your industry that cloning is not legalized, and its a free for all?

Is that not the same thing as a corrupt government official?
Is that any better than the cloner that " dont give a shit"?

And please thsi is no personal attack. It is all things that was said on this forum. Just showing the hypocricy, and why the general public will not "give a shit" for this movement. Same as someone mentioned about these same vendors that used to sell clones, and now suddenly clones are the devil.

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## Christos

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> This is the most important post on this thread.
> The same person that says cloning and buying clones is not the right thing to do.
> That say people that cloner "dont give a shit" for other people's intellectual property, or the vaping community.
> 
> The same person not only suggest to be unethical but to actually break the law by not declaring something at customs. So is that the right thing do? Do you "give a shit" for your country and its laws. That same laws that sort of protect your industry that cloning is not legalized, and its a free for all?
> 
> Is that not the same thing as a corrupt government official?
> Is that any better than the cloner that " dont give a shit"?
> 
> And please thsi is no personal attack. It is all things that was said on this forum. Just showing the hypocricy, and why the general public will not "give a shit" for this movement. Same as someone mentioned about these same vendors that used to sell clones, and now suddenly clones are the devil.



I think you are touching on a grey area here that perhaps needs some discussion and a working definition. I am by no means setting out to do that here.


I feel its hypocritical to even use the word hypocrite as nobody is perfect. calling anyone a hypocrite is merely an acknowledgment of our duplicitous nature as for example my thoughts and feeling in the morning often oppose my thoughts and feelings in the evening etc.

We all strive for excellence in all things we do but some areas are less excellent than others.
I would love to see pics of your etags and maybe some internet search history.

Taking an extra 5 minutes to smoke at work is theft technically according to some definitions of what is right in this thread. You would be stealing your employers money as you arent working for 5 minutes etc.
Going to the toilet is also technically theft because you are given a tea break, lunch and a another tea break before home time. How many times have we left work 5 minutes early? Theft right there.

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## M.Adhir

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> This is the most important post on this thread.
> The same person that says cloning and buying clones is not the right thing to do.
> That say people that cloner "dont give a shit" for other people's intellectual property, or the vaping community.
> 
> The same person not only suggest to be unethical but to actually break the law by not declaring something at customs. So is that the right thing do? Do you "give a shit" for your country and its laws. That same laws that sort of protect your industry that cloning is not legalized, and its a free for all?
> 
> Is that not the same thing as a corrupt government official?
> Is that any better than the cloner that " dont give a shit"?
> 
> And please thsi is no personal attack. It is all things that was said on this forum. Just showing the hypocricy, and why the general public will not "give a shit" for this movement. Same as someone mentioned about these same vendors that used to sell clones, and now suddenly clones are the devil.



I have to disagree here. I've brought in stuff quite a few times with Rob (and others here as well), and every time we have imported theres been a full declaration of value of goods, and customs paid. Right down to items worth $5 being declared, and duties paid on them.

As a taxpayer in the 39%+ /41% brackets, using let's say 2 grand / 2500 worth of fuel a month. Plus average grocery spend, plus uif/sdl etc.. add it up - over 65% of what we earn goes back to treasury some way or the other. And then we still need to pay for private security /alarms, pay medical aid, etc.

So yeah- I pay when and where I absolutely have to- but if I can avoid it once in a while(not importing goods for profit but for personal use), then yeah, I will open that bottle of cologne, or that cellphone box, or that vape gear, before I get through customs. Most people would, whether they would like to admit it or not.

I also don't think this is the right forum/ place for this discussion to be continued too much-it's a thread about cloning of goods, and has been derailed so far away that it may as well be a train flying in the ocean.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Christos said:


> I think you are touching on a grey area here that perhaps needs some discussion and a working definition. I am by no means setting out to do that here.
> 
> 
> I feel its hypocritical to even use the word hypocrite as nobody is perfect. calling anyone a hypocrite is merely an acknowledgment of our duplicitous nature as for example my thoughts and feeling in the morning often oppose my thoughts and feelings in the evening etc.
> 
> We all strive for excellence in all things we do but some areas are less excellent than others.
> I would love to see pics of your etags and maybe some internet search history.
> 
> Taking an extra 5 minutes to smoke at work is theft technically according to some definitions of what is right in this thread. You would be stealing your employers money as you arent working for 5 minutes etc.
> Going to the toilet is also technically theft because you are given a tea break, lunch and a another tea break before home time. How many times have we left work 5 minutes early? Theft right there.



I never said I do not do things that are wrong. But I also didnt tell people that not buying clones is the right thing to do?

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

M.Adhir said:


> I have to disagree here. I've brought in stuff quite a few times with Rob (and others here as well), and every time we have imported theres been a full declaration of value of goods, and customs paid. Right down to items worth $5 being declared, and duties paid on them.
> 
> As a taxpayer in the 39%+ /41% brackets, using let's say 2 grand / 2500 worth of fuel a month. Plus average grocery spend, plus uif/sdl etc.. add it up - over 65% of what we earn goes back to treasury some way or the other. And then we still need to pay for private security /alarms, pay medical aid, etc.
> 
> So yeah- I pay when and where I absolutely have to- but if I can avoid it once in a while(not importing goods for profit but for personal use), then yeah, I will open that bottle of cologne, or that cellphone box, or that vape gear, before I get through customs. Most people would, whether they would like to admit it or not.
> 
> I also don't think this is the right forum/ place for this discussion to be continued too much-it's a thread about cloning of goods, and has been derailed so far away that it may as well be a train flying in the ocean.



So Oscar can say he never murdered someone in 30years, so the one time he did, he can be excused?

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## M.Adhir

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> So Oscar can say he never murdered someone in 30years, so the one time he did, he can be excused?



Depends, on whether he asked or asks or needs to be excused in the first place. 

As I understand - a large part of this thread centred around being pro-choice. It's everybody's choice to do exactly what they want to do. Nobody has stopped anybody from that, rather, there have just been highlights of what the perceived impact of the whole cloning thing has has on the industry in general (which again, some may view very differently to others).

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## Christos

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> So Oscar can say he never murdered someone in 30years, so the one time he did, he can be excused?



Whole different ball game IMHO. Oscar has himself to live with. 
Most people sleep at night stealing their employers time.
Most people sleep at night not paying etolls.
Most people sleep at night stealing electricity.

Is it right? I dont know what constitutes a moral wrong for someone at the end of the day. 
IS stealing a loaf of bread to feed a hungry child still theft? should the hand still be cut off? I dont have the answer for you. I dont know myself except what constitutes right and wrong for myself in my conscious that is ever evolving and expanding as i get older.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Christos said:


> Whole different ball game IMHO. Oscar has himself to live with.
> Most people sleep at night stealing their employers time.
> Most people sleep at night not paying etolls.
> Most people sleep at night stealing electricity.
> 
> Is it right? I dont know what constitutes a moral wrong for someone at the end of the day.
> IS stealing a loaf of bread to feed a hungry child still theft? should the hand still be cut off? I dont have the answer for you. I dont know myself except what constitutes right and wrong for myself in my conscious that is ever evolving and expanding as i get older.



Agree, but trust me, after he killed someone, a psychopath will sleep just as good as me after I did not pay etoll
And surely someone paying thousands for airfair and buying vape gear, to try and save a few bucks at customs, cant be compared to someone who steals a bread for his hungry children? Unless he bought R200 booze and have nothing left for his children, then he has no excuse

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## Christos

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Agree, but trust me, after he killed someone, a psychopath will sleep just as good as me after I did not pay etoll
> And surely someone paying thousands for airfair and buying vape gear, to try and save a few bucks at customs, cant be compared to someone who steals a bread for his hungry children? Unless he bought R200 booze and have nothing left for his children, then he has no excuse



A wise man once said, he who is without sin throw the first stone. 

I feel you seem to be passing judgement on a matter that you yourself would not hesitate to do.

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## M.Adhir

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Agree, but trust me, after he killed someone, a psychopath will sleep just as good as me after I did not pay etoll
> And surely someone paying thousands for airfair and buying vape gear, to try and save a few bucks at customs, cant be compared to someone who steals a bread for his hungry children? Unless he bought R200 booze and have nothing left for his children, then he has no excuse



Precisely- but again, it's about choice. The choice too make their own decision, whether it's right or wrong is up to ones own moral copass/ conscience. The lesser of two evils may be less evil, but it's still evil. To each their own.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Christos said:


> A wise man once said, he who is without sin throw the first stone.
> 
> I feel you seem to be passing judgement on a matter that you yourself would not hesitate to do.


 Thanks, totally agree. So please copy and paste in the NCZ. " he who is without sin, throw the first stone"

Then this discussions would have never happened, people would have never said cloners and people buying them steal. No judgement would have passed on anyone

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

M.Adhir said:


> Precisely- but again, it's about choice. The choice too make their own decision, whether it's right or wrong is up to ones own moral copass/ conscience. The lesser of two evils may be less evil, but it's still evil. To each their own.



Yes thanks for joining the club, pro choice, dont judge people who clone or buy clones, each to their own

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## Christos

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Thanks, totally agree. So please copy and paste in the NCZ. " he who is without sin, throw the first stone"
> 
> Then this discussions would have never happened, people would have never said cloners and people buying them steal. No judgement would have passed on anyone


I think you missed the point entirely. No judgment was passed. Your assumptions are incorrect.
nobody is calling buyers of clones thieves. We are merely acknowledging that cloning is intellectual property theft.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Christos said:


> I think you missed the point entirely. No judgment was passed. Your assumptions are incorrect.
> nobody is calling buyers of clones thieves. We are merely acknowledging that cloning is intellectual property theft.


Maybe, but I dont think so. Ever went to Ster Kinekor? Ever seen the clips against illegal copied movies? People buying it, supports stealing?
Campaigns against illegal music same thing.
This is not new.
If you brand a cloner a thief, surely you cant say someone buying it is innocent, ....dealer.....stealer

No one has yet aswered my question if there is a difference between a cloner that "dont give a shit" or someone not paying at customs, and "dont give a shit"

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## Christos

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Maybe, but I dont think so. Ever went to Ster Kinekor? Ever seen the clips against illegal copied movies? People buying it, supports stealing?
> Campaigns against illegal music same thing.
> This is not new.
> If you brand a cloner a thief, surely you cant say someone buying it is innocent, ....dealer.....stealer
> 
> No one has yet aswered my question if there is a difference between a cloner that "dont give a shit" or someone not paying at customs, and "dont give a shit"


Thankfully we all subscribe to pro choice and have the freedom to chose what we want to do.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Christos said:


> Thankfully we all subscribe to pro choice and have the freedom to chose what we want to do.


Yes thanks for joining, I thinks pro choice was what the thread was about

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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Yes thanks for joining, I thinks pro choice was what the thread was about



Exactly pro choice for people to do what they want, just as Rob is free to do what he wants- do you see that this kinda backfired now.

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## Dela Rey Steyn

I support the choice to open goods going through customs, i have and will do it again if the oppurtunity arises. And I will NEVER get an E-tag or pay for E-toll. I am getting an Clone BB this weekend. These things are all my choices. But what I will not tolerate are people selling potentially dangerous juices and cheap devices with seriously suspect safety issues. Just keep in mind that I'm already a deviant, and dodgy at best

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

jm10 said:


> Exactly pro choice for people to do what they want, just as Rob is free to do what he wants- do you see that this kinda backfired now.


 Well if you are for pro choice, that means you respect everyone's freedom to choose, just as they then should respect yours. So then you cant say bad things about someone else's choice.. You cant say not buying clones is the right thing to do. The right thing according to who's morals? And then if its your morals that you openly proclaim on a public forum, surely ALL your other actions can then be measured against your set morals?

Thats where you all are missing the point, I like Robs post, its the highlight of my day when I come home and open Vapemail, Whats in your hand, pittstop etc, and see all the new things he shows and test. This was nothing against him. He just came and the defended the cause and also (according to me, judged people on their choices). So I just used it as an exsample that we all do wrong things and should not always proclaim what is right or wrong, because it can backfire.
Thats why it would be best that these discussions should never be on a forum, as no one will ever be totally right and no one will be totally wrong. Endless circle, pro choice, dont diss the others choice.

It is even the case in so many things in our diverse country. You have a choice of whatever religion, but you cant go and disrespect someone else's, it will just lead to endless fighting

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> I support the choice to open goods going through customs, i have and will do it again if the oppurtunity arises. And I will NEVER get an E-tag or pay for E-toll. I am getting an Clone BB this weekend. These things are all my choices. But what I will not tolerate are people selling potentially dangerous juices and cheap devices with seriously suspect safety issues. Just keep in mind that I'm already a deviant, and dodgy at best


Not to derail the thread. Im new and have not all information. But has these juices ever been tested, is there proof that they are different and contain harmfull stuff in them?

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## Dela Rey Steyn

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Not to derail the thread. Im new and have not all information. But has these juices ever been tested, is there proof that they are different and contain harmfull stuff in them?



Have you ever vaped on one of these fake juices? I had the misfortune to vape on a Fake fantasi juice ( local kid at a vape meet said his juice tasted funny and asked me to have a look, took that fateful drag and basically almost "kots my longe uit") and vaping on bleach would have been more pleasant imo

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## M.Adhir

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Not to derail the thread. Im new and have not all information. But has these juices ever been tested, is there proof that they are different and contain harmfull stuff in them?



As a start, they taste awful at worst. And muted at best.

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## BioHAZarD

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Have you ever vaped on one of these fake juices? I had the misfortune to vape on a Fake fantasi juice ( local kid at a vape meet said his juice tasted funny and asked me to have a look, took that fateful drag and basically almost "kots my longe uit") and vaping on bleach would have been more pleasant imo


Some of the local vendor ejuice has the same effect on me

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## BioHAZarD

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> I support the choice to open goods going through customs, i have and will do it again if the oppurtunity arises. And I will NEVER get an E-tag or pay for E-toll. I am getting an Clone BB this weekend. These things are all my choices. But what I will not tolerate are people selling potentially dangerous juices and cheap devices with seriously suspect safety issues. Just keep in mind that I'm already a deviant, and dodgy at best


Deviants are awesome people

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## Armed

I diy... and you know in diy there are some 'not so lekker' juices.
I vaped all of them. I'm too stingy not to.
Then I bought fake fantasi... 
It was sooo bad threw away the whole bottle

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## Armed

BioHAZarD said:


> Some of the local vendor ejuice has the same effect on me


Only local?

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## BioHAZarD

Armed said:


> Only local?


I don't really buy juice and when I do it's mostly local. So my exposure is limited.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Have you ever vaped on one of these fake juices? I had the misfortune to vape on a Fake fantasi juice ( local kid at a vape meet said his juice tasted funny and asked me to have a look, took that fateful drag and basically almost "kots my longe uit") and vaping on bleach would have been more pleasant imo


Nope, was juts wondering, if its just hearsay/urban legend, or is there any proof. My wife drink this cucumber Sprite, I would rather drink bloutrein, but Im sure she will not die

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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Well if you are for pro choice, that means you respect everyone's freedom to choose, just as they then should respect yours. So then you cant say bad things about someone else's choice.. You cant say not buying clones is the right thing to do. The right thing according to who's morals? And then if its your morals that you openly proclaim on a public forum, surely ALL your other actions can then be measured against your set morals?
> 
> Thats where you all are missing the point, I like Robs post, its the highlight of my day when I come home and open Vapemail, Whats in your hand, pittstop etc, and see all the new things he shows and test. This was nothing against him. He just came and the defended the cause and also (according to me, judged people on their choices). So I just used it as an exsample that we all do wrong things and should not always proclaim what is right or wrong, because it can backfire.
> Thats why it would be best that these discussions should never be on a forum, as no one will ever be totally right and no one will be totally wrong. Endless circle, pro choice, dont diss the others choice.
> 
> It is even the case in so many things in our diverse country. You have a choice of whatever religion, but you cant go and disrespect someone else's, it will just lead to endless fighting



You keep using the quote pro choice and welcoming people to the side but you yourself are judging others on there choices, you call people out claiming hypocrisy for there choices? 
If he wants to do certain thing right and certain things wrong then what?

You are right, it is a circle but you are slap dead in the middle. 

You are confusing the whole matter and forum here, we fought for pro choice on vape goods not on moral compasses or our lives.

And FYI i think your a hoot, always nice to have a mad hatter around

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## Silver

Hi guys

*Please drop it and lets move on*

These posts are getting personal
I dont want to lock this thread

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Nope, was juts wondering, if its just hearsay/urban legend, or is there any proof. My wife drink this cucumber Sprite, I would rather drink bloutrein, but Im sure she will not die


And then on this point. I once ordered something from a well known vemdor and went and picked it up at the warehouse. Now they make juice aswell. So getting at their premisses the door was open, just an security gate.the wind was almost blowing me over. Anyway within 3meters from where I was standing at the gate there was juice being made, big open jars with funny machines dripping the the exact measurmenst into these open jars. From where I was standing I could spit into these open jars and obviously wid can blow anything in.
So how safe is our local juices? What control is there what goes into all these juices made in someones garage? Have they been tested and controlled?

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## Dela Rey Steyn

That little ISO logo if for juices manufactured in ISO Standard Laboratory. That normally a good starting point and minimum requirement for me to buy a juice. Out of curiosity, please pm me the vendor's name where this happened.

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## jm10

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> And then on this point. I once ordered something from a well known vemdor and went and picked it up at the warehouse. Now they make juice aswell. So getting at their premisses the door was open, just an security gate.the wind was almost blowing me over. Anyway within 3meters from where I was standing at the gate there was juice being made, big open jars with funny machines dripping the the exact measurmenst into these open jars. From where I was standing I could spit into these open jars and obviously wid can blow anything in.
> So how safe is our local juices? What control is there what goes into all these juices made in someones garage? Have they been tested and controlled?



Yeah i get what your saying, i dont trust most of Durbans stuff. There is just to much backyard juice makers. 

There was a topic about this a while ago
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/all-juice-manufacturers.t39913/

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## Dela Rey Steyn

Logo

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## Adephi

Time for my 2c.

A year ago I bought my second mod. A SXK Billet Box that I would rather like to refer to as a replica than a clone. I bought it on Black Friday from a reputable vendor that is now a staunch supporter of the NCZ. Now I fell in love with this little mod and it is still my go to vape in and out of the house.

This mod might not have got me off stinkies but it surely kept me off it. And thanks to this replica mod I will live a couple of years longer for fellow vapers to give me crap about it being a clone.

About halfway through the year I started noticing this particular shop going the no clone route. I knew there was a heavy discussion more than a year ago on the thread about clones but I thought we all moved past that. Clearly not. So I started wondering what am I doing wrong. I'm always buying from reputable vendors. Everything from concentrates to cotton and wire and batteries. So why the sudden attention on clones again? I saw at the China mall all the cheap stuff they got there but common sense told me it has something to do with Charles Darwin's theory of Natural Selection.

A few months later the NCZ started popping up all over the place. Vendor's then reviewers and especially the HE gear crowd. Hence the association with HE gear. Nobody explaining what its about. All seem to be happening behind the scenes and I started feeling like the bad guy here. So @Daniel , there was no where a specific accusation of people looking down on clone/replica users. But there was these subtle hints with hashtags and declarations that was getting a bit intimidating. Or maybe I do have some issues.

Thanks to @Rob Fisher 's post earlier we have more of an idea what if going on and it started to get this thread to be more constructive.

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## Resistance

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> Completely agree with u on the low end-LE point, there is no low end devices, it's just mass produced that's why costs less.


But, are there low end comunities we should ask, because HE seem to have comunities and low end seem to be devices.
And this is the split in the vaping community. Then we have twisp communities and medium end communities as well.
How about mixed end community???

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## Resistance

I'm a lifestyle Vaper and proud of it.
I Vape to suit my lifestyle

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## Dela Rey Steyn

I'm a big fan of Twisp and what they are doing for Vaping, also have a few Twisp devices i still use occasionally. Then I have Mass Produced gear that i love, and getting fake/clone/replica gear this weekend, so I think i should be considered "tri-communal"?

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

jm10 said:


> You keep using the quote pro choice and welcoming people to the side but you yourself are judging others on there choices, you call people out claiming hypocrisy for there choices?
> If he wants to do certain thing right and certain things wrong then what?
> 
> You are right, it is a circle but you are slap dead in the middle.
> 
> You are confusing the whole matter and forum here, we fought for pro choice on vape goods not on moral compasses or our lives.
> 
> And FYI i think your a hoot, always nice to have a mad hatter around



If I copy and paste contradictory statements, its not judging, its showing contradictions. 

But let me maybe explain to you differently. What difference will a campaign on the internet make against clones. If you say f#ck clones, buying clones is not right to a few people reading the forum, will it make any difference? Except creating threads like this.

Now, selling counterfeit products is illegal in SA as far as I know. I often read in the media of counterfeit goods being seized. So if these clones are really affecting bussiness, why not get the police involved. I mean how difficult is it. Get members in all areas to go to china mall, let them even buy the fakes. Then it seems there is a few vendors and people in SA on good relations with manufaturers. So get proof from manufaturers or vendors importing the stuff, that these are fakes being sold. Give all the information to police and follow up, what has been done? Cant be that difficult. But its a bit stupid to do, if you yourself dont follow the laws, It will be a bit stupid, if you yourself used to sell clones

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## Resistance

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> I'm a big fan of Twisp and what they are doing for Vaping, also have a few Twisp devices i still use occasionally. Then I have Mass Produced gear that i love, and getting fake/clone/replica gear this weekend, so I think i should be considered "tri-communal"?


you can join the lifestyle comunity.
Your life your style!

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## Resistance

Still,clone and fake in the same category is that the right thing to do or say.
Sxk bb is then not original but its a forum favorite. How does that work???

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## Daniel

What is actually going on here??!! 

Everyone is so caught up in their own little world trying to justify this or that we all forgot what it's all about ....

You vape what you have you stay off the stinkies that's it. So stop your yapping stop your politics and let's all just let it be it is what it is....

Gooi Wolke PAPPA!

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## Dela Rey Steyn

Daniel said:


> What is actually going on here??!!
> 
> Everyone is so caught up in their own little world trying to justify this or that we all forgot what it's all about ....
> 
> You vape what you have you stay off the stinkies that's it. So stop your yapping stop your politics and let's all just let it be it is what it is....
> 
> Gooi Wolke PAPPA!



DING DING DING!!! We have a Winner!

"An *epiphany* (from the ancient Greek _epiphaneia_, "manifestation, striking appearance") is an experience of a sudden and striking realization. Generally the term is used to describe scientific breakthrough, religious or philosophical discoveries, but it can apply in any situation in which an enlightening realization allows a problem or situation to be understood from a new and deeper perspective."

Yes! So let stop giving the guy with a clone Hadaly or (insert other HE device here) crap and shift the focus to fighting the real enemies, dangerous e-liquids, questionable batteries and unsafe devices. That is where the war should be fought.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Daniel

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> DING DING DING!!! We have a Winner!
> 
> "An *epiphany* (from the ancient Greek _epiphaneia_, "manifestation, striking appearance") is an experience of a sudden and striking realization. Generally the term is used to describe scientific breakthrough, religious or philosophical discoveries, but it can apply in any situation in which an enlightening realization allows a problem or situation to be understood from a new and deeper perspective."
> 
> Yes! So let stop giving the guy with a clone Hadaly or (insert other HE device here) crap and shift the focus to fighting the real enemies, dangerous e-liquids, questionable batteries and unsafe devices. That is where the war should be fought.



Again no one is giving anyone shit about anything....

Its never been an epiphany I'm just tired of everybody talking about it and not doing anyhting. 

You want to make a difference? Ask the guy selling counterfeit products what he is doing? Rock up every day asking him...

Educate smokers around the benefits of harm reduction....

Try and convert as many smokers as you can...every day...stop complaining start doing...

I challenge every single person on this forum to do what uncle @Rob Fisher has been doing for the past few years I dare you...

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## jm10

This thread has run its course, i cant watch children fight anymore when they contributed nothing to resolving this in the first place.

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## BioHAZarD

Ok it seems all the muppets need some direction again 

Some points on what this thread is not about:

Justifying HE gear (I don't care what you vape on)

Polarisation of sub communities within the forum (This will always happen - it's human nature - we like our little tribes)

Cloned juice (we have covered this - the health aspect - we don't like it - done)
Whether or not Rob is a ethical person - I for one believe he is - within the normal course of business 
Whether or not @Daniel and me are going to have a Xmas hug - It's not going to happen - he is off my ignore list - so that is a positive 
So what are we trying to achieve?

For one i think the NCZ is a great initiative ... i will reiterate what i have said in a previous post - I have zero problem with the initiative. I did however contribute to the drama and it was with good reason. I had hoped that once everybody had gotten all the crap out of their system we could discuss this like adults.

Some people apparently feel that this is not possible. I am almost starting to believe them. I had hoped that the discussion between Rob and myself would guide this discussion further as it was highlighting some very good points.

For me it boils down to the following:

Clones are being scapegoated for the problems in the industry
The actual problem are the vendors
They are laughing their asses off because they can stock whatever they want and like good little sheep you all will buy it
For very long clones were THE thing - I don't even have to prove this

They made a shitload of money riding the clone wave
They can remove themselves from the initiative at any stage and go back to selling clones with no repercussions
Vendors are a law unto themselves and accountable to no one
There are definitely some good vendors with the right principles but lets not forget this - This is a business and for the most part its about making money
Clones were a good cash cow for this purpose
Ok so what now??

Honestly I don't know. This whole thing was nice and quiet until it was advertised/promoted in the forum on reviewer channels - @Daniel @Martin Narainsamy (you need to add your 2c here as you felt comfortable enough to advertise it - and go off on your mini rant) (@Daniel thank you for your participation so far) your friend has been very quiet - Stand up buddy - you wanna review - take the heat. If not, then go away. Your status/position is by no means sacrosanct.

I believe the movement is genuine. I don't believe the membership is. You wanna join - cool - keep it off the forum - if the forum wants to support it then also fine but ban all vendors that supply clones. I for one don't believe it has a place on the forum at this point as this not representative of the general forum feeling?

I echo what @Christos said ... none of us are perfect. The post of @Rob Fisher about the customs incident has no bearing on this discussion. If he had started a declare your goods at customs initiative then sure - different story. We are all a little unethical at heart - hell it makes life fun and we are only human.

Focus on the vendors - they are the ones cashing in on your choices  stop fighting one another. Oh ja i reserve the right to fight with @Daniel

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 4 | Winner 5


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## Resistance

Daniel said:


> Again no one is giving anyone shit about anything....
> 
> Its never been an epiphany I'm just tired of everybody talking about it and not doing anyhting.
> 
> You want to make a difference? Ask the guy selling counterfeit products what he is doing? Rock up every day asking him...
> 
> Educate smokers around the benefits of harm reduction....
> 
> Try and convert as many smokers as you can...every day...stop complaining start doing...
> 
> I challenge every single person on this forum to do what uncle @Rob Fisher has been doing for the past few years I dare you...


Be original.don't be a Clone or fake bro!.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 3


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## hot.chillie35

Resistance said:


> I'm a lifestyle Vaper and proud of it.
> I Vape to suit my lifestyle




Amen to that !!!...To each his own☺

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Resistance

Vape stores,importers and so forth ar'nt all that innocent but now they stand safe out the water and leave us eciggsa members to handle their shut.
We should have a don't import clones initiative instead of don't buy clones

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Silver

Hi guys

Certain posts above have been removed

Let me re-iterate what I said before
Keep things here mature and on-topic
Dont make things personal

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 1


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## Marek_710

Just wanted to google "Clone vape gear" to see if there was any other discussions on this mater, and im shocked to see one of the biggest retailers pop up on my screen...can someone help me understand this better ?

Reactions: Like 5


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## Puff the Magic Dragon

*NO CLONE ZONE*

Authentic Products or nothing


The above notice appears on their home page.

Reactions: Like 3


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## BioHAZarD

Marek_710 said:


> Just wanted to google "Clone vape gear" to see if there was any other discussions on this mater, and im shocked to see one of the biggest retailers pop up on my screen...can someone help me understand this better ?
> 
> View attachment 153253


They used to sell clones a couple years back i think. Not 100% sure on the timing.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Marek_710

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> *NO CLONE ZONE*
> 
> Authentic Products or nothing
> 
> 
> The above notice appears on their home page.



So its just google add words ?
If so they should just fix that so NaNa's like me dont get the wrong impression.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Adephi

Marek_710 said:


> Just wanted to google "Clone vape gear" to see if there was any other discussions on this mater, and im shocked to see one of the biggest retailers pop up on my screen...can someone help me understand this better ?
> 
> View attachment 153253



They use to sell some no-name brand RDA's. Like most vendors do.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## BioHAZarD

Marek_710 said:


> So its just google add words ?


its google. not always a 100% match

Reactions: Like 3


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> its google. not always a 100% match



Guess we found the one user of Yahoo

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Funny 2


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## Marek_710

BioHAZarD said:


> its google. not always a 100% match


just got a chuckle from it after reading through 6 pages of posts to go on google and type those words in and find one of the top dogs on the top 
Hence me asking for a better understanding, thanks

Reactions: Like 4


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## baksteen8168

Marek_710 said:


> Just wanted to google "Clone vape gear" to see if there was any other discussions on this mater, and im shocked to see one of the biggest retailers pop up on my screen...can someone help me understand this better ?
> 
> View attachment 153253


Easy to explain. In the early days of vaping almost all of the retailers sold clones. 

Sent from my SM-A530F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

If google cant find al three words ypou searching, they will give the next result for two of the words, thus vape gear

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Pixstar

Vendors can't comment on this thread...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Silver

Pixstar said:


> Vendors can't comment on this thread...



Vendors can commemt on any thread @Pixstar
They are just not allowed to promote their products and services in the general forum
If they would like to discuss general issues on the topic of this thread without promotion, they are welcome to

Reactions: Like 6


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## Resistance

Silver said:


> Vendors can commemt on any thread @Pixstar
> They are just not allowed to promote their products and services in the general forum
> If they would like to discuss general issues on the topic of this thread without promotion, they are welcome to



OK cool.so how will this initiative affect vendors that make up their nett...? By selling Clone products.
I would love to hear from them ,because I'm sure some of them are small entities

Reactions: Like 4


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## jm10

Resistance said:


> OK cool.so how will this initiative affect vendors that make up their nett...? By selling Clone products.
> I would love to hear from them ,because I'm sure some of them are small entities



We could just tag each one them individually or 3 tags per post max but one tag per post would be better so they can quote and respond to said post, but I’m unclear who the players where/are

Reactions: Like 3


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## Silver

jm10 said:


> We could just tag everyone one of them, and let them comment, but I’m unclear who the players where/are



Please dont tag multiple members in a single post @jm10 
If you want to tag people, keep it to a max of 3 per post

Reactions: Like 5


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## jm10

Silver said:


> Please dont tag multiple members in a single post @jm10
> If you want to tag people, keep it to a max of 3 per post



Gotcha and noted ill amend my post @Silver

Reactions: Like 5


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## Pixstar

Silver said:


> Vendors can commemt on any thread @Pixstar
> They are just not allowed to promote their products and services in the general forum
> If they would like to discuss general issues on the topic of this thread without promotion, they are welcome to


Oh ok thanks for clarifying that. I was confused

Reactions: Like 4


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## lesvaches

the story of a clone.....

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1 | Funny 2


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## BioHAZarD

lesvaches said:


> the story of a clone.....



Yeah I can relate to that

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## vicTor

*another yawn*

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2 | Creative 1


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## hot.chillie35

vicTor said:


> *another yawn*


Lol....thought I was the only one

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Funny 1


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## Daniel

We need a podcast or something about this to debate... @Chukin'Vape @RichJB maybe we need to set something up?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Daniel

Or we go live right now uncke @Rob Fisher how you feeling?

Reactions: Like 3


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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> Or we go live right now uncke @Rob Fisher how you feeling?


You can always add @KZOR in as well I think

Reactions: Like 3


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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> Or we go live right now uncke @Rob Fisher how you feeling?


Also depends on how sober you are

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Daniel

BioHAZarD said:


> You can always @KZOR in as well I think


Yeah good old Telkom load shedding it seems on their towers or something my interwebs is down....sumbitch

Reactions: Funny 3


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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> Yeah good old Telkom load shedding it seems on their towers or something my interwebs is down....sumbitch


Hmm ok

Reactions: Like 3


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## Daniel

BioHAZarD said:


> Also depends on how sober you are


What does that mean? I'm as sober as any white male on a Friday with load schedddingsh....

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Daniel

BioHAZarD said:


> Hmm ok


You can always call me (you have my Nr) and we can debate offline or record it I don't care....

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Raindance

Gee Wiz! talk about beating a dead horse!

Clones are bad, unless you like them, then they are awesome. Forgeries made to mislead, always suck.

Everybody sold them until they could afford to admit the error of their ways. Enough said.

Regards

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 8


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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> What does that mean? I'm as sober as any white male on a Friday with load schedddingsh....


You mean you are struggling to stand up straight but other than that alll is well.

OK admins at least give @Daniel a second to read before you delete.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Raindance

Daniel said:


> What does that mean? I'm as sober as any white male on a Friday with load schedddingsh....


Black label Bro, Black Label.

Regards

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## BioHAZarD

Daniel said:


> You can always call me (you have my Nr) and we can debate offline or record it I don't care....


I do??
Maybe I am drunk?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Daniel

Raindance said:


> Gee Wiz! talk about beating a dead horse!
> 
> Clones are bad, unless you like them, then they are awesome. Forgeries made to mislead, always suck.
> 
> Everybody sold them until they could afford to admit the error of their ways. Enough said.
> 
> Regards


This....

Power bru! 

You summed up 20 pages of BS....

I'm done. Thanks for this

Reactions: Funny 4 | Thanks 1


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## jm10

Daniel said:


> This....
> 
> Power bru!
> 
> You summed up 20 pages of BS....
> 
> I'm done. Thanks for this



We are definitely locking the door this time cause we keep finding you back inside here....

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Resistance

Would this be page number one?
No one else comments...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Resistance

I was honestly hoping for a decent comments from vendors and punters alike and even more so from the ncz pro party but it seemed its only the select few that gave reasonable feedback.
So much for starting a movement and having to look for the guys you standing up for!!!

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3


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## BioHAZarD

It is Friday night dude

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## BioHAZarD

Ok guys this is my last post 
Due to administrative differences between me and the powers that be i have requested that they delete my account with immediate effect as i want no further part of this forum going forward.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## KZOR

Resistance said:


> No one else comments...


We don't want to waste our time typing something we feel strongly about that might get deleted again.
And that is my main reason for not being as active anymore.
This forum is, at times, run with an unhealthy iron fist ..... my opinion.
This had led to a divide months ago which is truly unfortunate as it once thrived with activity.
That, even if it is factual, which could slightly tarnish someone in their camp is quickly swept under the rug.
@BioHAZarD ...... if you're account get's deleted then it will truly be a very sad day for this forum.
You have been a SENSIBLE and valuable contributor to this forum for a very long time.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 14 | Thanks 1


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## vicTor

BioHAZarD said:


> Ok guys this is my last post
> Due to administrative differences between me and the powers that be i have requested that they delete my account with immediate effect as i want no further part of this forum going forward.



seriously ?

now who's gonna post awesome song of the day shit ?

Reactions: Like 4


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## Raindance

BioHAZarD said:


> Ok guys this is my last post
> Due to administrative differences between me and the powers that be i have requested that they delete my account with immediate effect as i want no further part of this forum going forward.


No Boet no! I'd love for us to cross swords and debate the issues of the day till the cows come home. That is what this forum is all about. We can disagree but still be palls no matter what.

Regards

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## jm10

BioHAZarD said:


> Ok guys this is my last post
> Due to administrative differences between me and the powers that be i have requested that they delete my account with immediate effect as i want no further part of this forum going forward.



We tried bruv, we tried........

See you on the other side.....

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## SmokeyJoe

Cant we all just sit around a fire and sing kumbaya

Come on guys. This tread started as a good discussion and ended up as a parliament session. Im actually embarrassed to see the shit flinging going on here.

If you take cars, some people will buy a bmw over a ford because they have the money and they want the brand. There is NOTHING wrong about that. If you worked hard for your cash, use it as you please. Its your choice.

On the other side of the coin, most of us here cant afford HE, myself included. And thats also perfect. Its what makes you happy, whether it be clone hardware or not

This thread is starting to sound like a bunch of old grannies nagging about crap because their nappies are full. Come on, we are adults here. And all of us are here for one cause. To stay away from stinkies. Thats it.

If this childish bickering doesnt stop, then im sad to say that the forum is not what its used to be, and ill have to close my account. I come to this forum to connect to fellow vapers, irrespective of what device you use.

Im out.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 8


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## hot.chillie35

BioHAZarD said:


> Ok guys this is my last post
> Due to administrative differences between me and the powers that be i have requested that they delete my account with immediate effect as i want no further part of this forum going forward.




Long live @BioHAZarD.... ur presence and input on this forum will surely be missed. Sad to see u go ...





@Resistance
@jm10
@KZOR
@lesvaches
@MrGSmokeFree

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 6


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## SmokeyJoe

hot.chillie35 said:


> Long live @BioHAZarD.... ur presence and input on this forum will surely be missed. Sad to see u go ...
> 
> View attachment 153304
> View attachment 153305
> 
> 
> @Resistance
> @jm10
> @KZOR
> @lesvaches
> @MrGSmokeFree


I have to agree. I thoroughly enjoyed his posts

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Silver

KZOR said:


> We don't want to waste our time typing something we feel strongly about that might get deleted again.



Just for the record - 

nothing on this thread was deleted that related to the topic at hand or was something that a member felt strongly about on this issue

The only posts that were removed were off topic posts that had nothing to do with the topic - or posts that were personal and potentially offensive. (After we had posted to this effect asking folk to keep it respectful and on topic.)

I can assure you we have tried our best to keep this thread going with valid commentary on the topic from all sides.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## SmokeyJoe

hot.chillie35 said:


> Long live @BioHAZarD.... ur presence and input on this forum will surely be missed. Sad to see u go ...
> 
> View attachment 153304
> View attachment 153305
> 
> 
> @Resistance
> @jm10
> @KZOR
> @lesvaches
> @MrGSmokeFree


I feel like Rose in the Titanic on that floating door. Move over woman theres enough space. Jaaaaaaaack!

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

The good news is that people that feel the need to announce their exit, normally returns quickly.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 3


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## Resistance

KZOR said:


> We don't want to waste our time typing something we feel strongly about that might get deleted again.
> And that is my main reason for not being as active anymore.
> This forum is, at times, run with an unhealthy iron fist ..... my opinion.
> This had led to a divide months ago which is truly unfortunate as it once thrived with activity.
> That, even if it is factual, which could slightly tarnish someone in their camp is quickly swept under the rug.
> @BioHAZarD ...... if you're account get's deleted then it will truly be a very sad day for this forum.
> You have been a SENSIBLE and valuable contributor to this forum for a very long time.



I was actually hoping some of the ncz pro party/movement state their case a but, its only @Rob Fisher and @Silver and say one or two others that responded.
We all know @Rob Fisher was always against clones so I did'nt count his vote.Its was always +1.
So where is the other activists eg.vendors,reviewers etc.
My point is why make a big thing if you have nothing to say.
And this makes me wonder if they are shy to acknwolledge they have switched opinions and the reason real behind it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## vicTor

Resistance said:


> I was actually hoping some of the ncz pro party/movement state their case a but, its only @Rob Fisher and @Silver and say one or two others that responded.
> We all know @Rob Fisher was always against clones so I did'nt count his vote.Its was always +1.
> So where is the other activists eg.vendors,reviewers etc.
> My point is why make a big thing if you have nothing to say.
> And this makes me wonder if they are shy to acknwolledge they have switched opinions and the reason real behind it.



dude, I will buy a clone knowing that it's wrong, ok

(because it's my choice, my choice, but still wrong)

Reactions: Like 3


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## RenaldoRheeder

Resistance said:


> I was actually hoping some of the ncz pro party/movement state their case a but, its only @Rob Fisher and @Silver and say one or two others that responded.
> We all know @Rob Fisher was always against clones so I did'nt count his vote.Its was always +1.
> So where is the other activists eg.vendors,reviewers etc.
> My point is why make a big thing if you have nothing to say.
> And this makes me wonder if they are shy to acknwolledge they have switched opinions and the reason real behind it.



I can’t speak for others, I can only comment from my perspective. I support the NCZ initiative because I believe in the principle behind it - the IP belongs to someone else and I want to try to respect that. It is a choice to make and we all have the right to make our own choices. To me it has nothing to do with HE vs Other. I do not judge anyone that does not support the NCZ - it is a free choice after all. Similarly, I do not accept any judgement from others that do not approve of my choices. 

I have used clones before for the same reasons that many has quoted: Affordability, Availability, Try before you buy the authentic, etc. When the NCZ initiative started, I had to rethink the issue and made some changes in my business too. So my decisions has been to buy & support authentic - if I cannot due to any reason stated above or otherwise, then I have to go without it. So it is a moral issue for me personally. 

Before anyone is tempted to judge me for this or anything else in my other choices in life, remember this is my choice based on my point of view. 

I am passionate about vaping and the life changing benefits of it. I will continue to promote vaping and to support the vaping industry - the SA local industry especially. I will not look down or judge anyone that differs from me in this regard - I respect your choices. 

Lastly I want to state that I am not posting this to stir up any heated debate - I am merely responding to the question raised about limited response from the NCZ members. 

Do what you have to, as long as you vape on!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 9 | Winner 4


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## jm10

vicTor said:


> dude, I will buy a clone knowing that it's wrong, ok
> 
> (because it's my choice, my choice, but still wrong)



Yawn

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## jm10

RenaldoRheeder said:


> I can’t speak for others, I can only comment from my perspective. I support the NCZ initiative because I believe in the principle behind it - the IP belongs to someone else and I want to try to respect that. It is a choice to make and we all have the right to make our own choices. To me it has nothing to do with HE vs Other. I do not judge anyone that does not support the NCZ - it is a free choice after all. Similarly, I do not accept any judgement from others that do not approve of my choices.
> 
> I have used clones before for the same reasons that many has quoted: Affordability, Availability, Try before you buy the authentic, etc. When the NCZ initiative started, I had to rethink the issue and made some changes in my business too. So my decisions has been to buy & support authentic - if I cannot due to any reason stated above or otherwise, then I have to go without it. So it is a moral issue for me personally.
> 
> Before anyone is tempted to judge me for this or anything else in my other choices in life, remember this is my choice based on my point of view.
> 
> I am passionate about vaping and the life changing benefits of it. I will continue to promote vaping and to support the vaping industry - the SA local industry especially. I will not look down or judge anyone that differs from me in this regard - I respect your choices.
> 
> Lastly I want to state that I am not posting this to stir up any heated debate - I am merely responding to the question raised about limited response from the NCZ members.
> 
> Do what you have to, as long as you vape on!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Very insightful and i think you summed it up nicely

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2


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## hot.chillie35

jm10 said:


> Yawn


Damn! I second that .... lol once again I thought I was the only one

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Resistance

vicTor said:


> dude, I will buy a clone knowing that it's wrong, ok
> 
> (because it's my choice, my choice, but still wrong)


Bro when did i ever say its wrong or right

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Resistance

RenaldoRheeder said:


> I can’t speak for others, I can only comment from my perspective. I support the NCZ initiative because I believe in the principle behind it - the IP belongs to someone else and I want to try to respect that. It is a choice to make and we all have the right to make our own choices. To me it has nothing to do with HE vs Other. I do not judge anyone that does not support the NCZ - it is a free choice after all. Similarly, I do not accept any judgement from others that do not approve of my choices.
> 
> I have used clones before for the same reasons that many has quoted: Affordability, Availability, Try before you buy the authentic, etc. When the NCZ initiative started, I had to rethink the issue and made some changes in my business too. So my decisions has been to buy & support authentic - if I cannot due to any reason stated above or otherwise, then I have to go without it. So it is a moral issue for me personally.
> 
> Before anyone is tempted to judge me for this or anything else in my other choices in life, remember this is my choice based on my point of view.
> 
> I am passionate about vaping and the life changing benefits of it. I will continue to promote vaping and to support the vaping industry - the SA local industry especially. I will not look down or judge anyone that differs from me in this regard - I respect your choices.
> 
> Lastly I want to state that I am not posting this to stir up any heated debate - I am merely responding to the question raised about limited response from the NCZ members.
> 
> Do what you have to, as long as you vape on!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So far this is the best answer on this topic I recieved to any of my questions. Thanks for the honest opinion now we know at least the change was for a good purpose on your behalf and not just following the crowd.
I dont own any clones ,so I didnt have to respond either but, my thing is to live by your means and be happy with it.so I am pro choice or pro lifestyle.
For those that live according to their means and those that live above...I am happy for them but not when they make others look foul

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## hot.chillie35

Resistance said:


> So far this is the best answer on this topic I recieved to any of my questions. Thanks for the honest opinion now we know at least the change was for a good purpose on your behalf and not just following the crowd.
> I dont own any clones ,so I didnt have to respond either but, my thing is to live by your means and be happy with it.so I am pro choice or pro lifestyle.
> For those that live according to their means and those that live above...I am happy for them but not when they make others look foul



Well said @Resistance .... at the end all we have is our freedom of choice! ☺

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Hooked

Treat the cause, not the symptom. Clones are merely the symptom. The underlying cause of their existence is the cost of mods. If mods were not so expensive, there wouldn't be a market for clones.

If the NCZ movement truly wants to make a difference, target the source. Firstly, the mod manufacturers and secondly, the vendors.
If everyone worked together and agreed to reduce their profit margins, HE or any other mods would be affordable and there would be no need or market for clones.

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 2


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## Room Fogger

I have originals and I have clones, and I have no regrets about any of them. Yes, certain clones I will like to change for originals in the long run, others I won’t. Again my decision to buy. 

As I get more into vaping I can see the choice of buying original is the way to go, and I do where affordable and available, but again only on some items, but not all and for sure not at some of the prices charged. I will also never suggest that a clone is an original. If having and using clones makes me a pariah in the vaping community, then so be it.

For starters I can tell you straight out that my Coppervape Skyfall clone gives me better taste than a lot of other rda’s I have, bonus for my rastebuds. I will never look down on someone using a clone, as long as it works for them, and serves the purpose of keeping him of Stinkies. Maybe that why I have 5 Skyclones, they are my daily drivers and I love them for their fersatility and flavour. Will I own at least one original, hell yes, once my kids are qualified, untill then I will keep on enjoying what I have.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 2 | Winner 3


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## Beserker786

Wow, guys, everything is subjective. Instead of getting hot under the collar, just don’t allow things to make you act drastically. Take what you want from the forum, and don’t let opinions determine that you’re either in or out. Anyway, have a vape, chill out and do what you do best

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 3


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## Resistance

Beserker786 said:


> Wow, guys, everything is subjective. Instead of getting hot under the collar, just don’t allow things to make you act drastically. Take what you want from the forum, and don’t let opinions determine that you’re either in or out. Anyway, have a vape, chill out and do what you do best


Bro its not always the opinions that dictate some times its the way the opinion gets thrown in your lap.
That's one of the reasons so many forum members have left and others don't bother much anymore.
Your life your lifestyle, your choice.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 7


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

So what effect does the clones have on the secondhand market? On the one side you have the hype chasers that constantly buy new gear and sell their old gear, floading the market, then new vapers who should have bought these secondhand gear, goes and buy cheap clones at china mall.
So is the people most affected by clones not maybe vapers themself, that cant get rid of their old stuff, or have to sell it a ridiculously low prices?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## kev mac

Daniel said:


> The only people that don't understand that are the ones that are shouting "Elitists!" or "HE bastards!"
> 
> Same discrimination works the other way round (NCZ as uncle RoB said was never about this....) , why must I be labeled if I choose to spend my money on higher tier vape gear and be called all kinds of names ?


People spend THEIR cash on what they choose ,period.Anyone calling somebody out on the choice they make needs to get a life.That said I buy my juice at my trusted B+M or on line from proven retailers .I never have run into fake juice but I guess some will try anything for a buck.Is this prevalent?

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## RichJB

Fake juices are quite an issue here, @kev mac. I suppose this is to be expected in a country with high unemployment and many poorer people. It's not just that the fake merchants are providing a dirt cheap option for the poorer people to vape, it's that they are finding employment themselves in supplying fakes. 

It remains a huge challenge for vaping to try and make it as affordable as possible. Most of the billion lives they are aiming to save are poorer developing world citizens. I think the industry is doing what it can and it's been heartening to see hardware, juice and DIY prices all drop consistently over the past few years. But there is still headroom for cheaper vaping options.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Thanks 1


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## Hooked

kev mac said:


> People spend THEIR cash on what they choose ,period.Anyone calling somebody out on the choice they make needs to get a life.That said I buy my juice at my trusted B+M or on line from proven retailers .I never have run into fake juice but I guess some will try anything for a buck.Is this prevalent?



@kev mac I unknowingly bought a bottle of fake Nasty Juice from a tobacco shop in an upmarket shopping centre. I contacted Nasty Juice, who confirmed that it's fake. Whether they followed up on it I don't know.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rob Fisher

A visit to the China Mall in Durban raised my blood pressure no end! I don't think there is one authentic product in the entire complex!

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 3


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## Adephi

Rob Fisher said:


> A visit to the China Mall in Durban raised my blood pressure no end! I don't think there is one authentic product in the entire complex!
> View attachment 153928
> View attachment 153929
> View attachment 153930



Those mods are hectically overpriced even if they where authentic.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## Resistance

Rob Fisher said:


> A visit to the China Mall in Durban raised my blood pressure no end! I don't think there is one authentic product in the entire complex!
> View attachment 153928
> View attachment 153929
> View attachment 153930


Thats still priced as clones. Here in Cape Town it starts at R80 and moves up to retail prices. Its not just at China Town anymore its at tobacconist and in Malls too

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 1


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

Resistance said:


> Thats still priced as clones. Here in Cape Town it starts at R80 and moves up to retail prices. Its not just at China Town anymore its at tobacconist and in Malls too


If u go to the china mall next to paddock mall in tableview u will get it for r30

Sent from aPhone

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1 | Creative 1


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## Resistance

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> If u go to the china mall next to paddock mall in tableview u will get it for r30
> 
> Sent from aPhone


NeVer saw that for less than 55, but im out. Made that mistake once but learnt from it.

Reactions: Like 4


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## RichJB

I think what Faiyaz is saying is that the Durban China Mall is the HE one.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 9


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## Pho3niX90

I have read a couple of pages, and have skipped a couple. 

I have been hesitant to reply here as it makes it extremely difficult for a vendor to comment on such topics. To comply with forum rules I will make no mention of any products or brands. 

I have on multiple occasions considered importing clones of a certain tank, as they refuse to sell to any other vendors, however never followed through. 

Reason? I would rather import authentic and sell under MSRP or at least match MSRP, and rather not support a business that doesn't support healthy competition. Heck, even when I import or get stock at good prices I cut in some vendors that have asked. I am a firm believer that a customer shouldn't find better pricing by importing, its not fair to the clientele. 

Many times I have been at awe what some vendors charge (not all of them) which just looks like outright daylight robbery, this in itself has fuelled the entire clone category, or so I feel. 

Now I have absolutely no issues with clones at all, as long as they are clearly stated as such, not everyone would understand the term "styled", which I believe is misleading. However, the only time I would truly have an issue with clones/fakes is if they are sold as authentic, or being worded to deceive a buyer to think it's authentic.

At the end of the day, I believe this choice solely lies on the buyer, as it's a CHOICE, and no one should ever have to explain their choices.

The entire post might seem like I am promoting my business, however I felt I had to put in everything to properly explain why I don't sell clones, but still believe a customer should have a choice.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 7 | Winner 13


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Check these clones. Dont know why you want to clone a wasp and sell it at same price as authentic
http://satovape.co.za/clones.html

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Hooked

Never mind mods, even Woollies is in hot water now with their cloned baby carrier. Seriously - was it really necessary for such a big retailer to copy something designed by an "ordinary" individual?? Let the original item give them ideas, yes, but surely they could have been creative enough to add their own changes to it? They've definitely lost points with me.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

I havent bought any clones, but I must say, someone posted a picture the other day of a purple Double barrel clone, and man that thing is beautifull.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Comrad Juju

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> I havent bought any clones, but I must say, someone posted a picture the other day of a purple Double barrel clone, and man that thing is beautifull.



They actually do custom ones.

Have a look on their FB page. But it gets pretty expensive pretty fast 

There was also a limited run of purple ones that was sold as standard 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 2


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## Hooked

This manufacturer does not support the No Clone Zone!

Reactions: Funny 5


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