# Disturbing news from PayFast



## Gizmo

Trying to change some of my account details with payfast they told me casually that a new law has been processed that no Vaping / Tobacoo related goods are to be accpeted by payfast and other similar payment gateway services. 

So in closing, our account looks like it will be closed as well as other vaping stores that use payfast.. 

It looks like the government is starting a banning process of vaping online first. 

Please advise if anyone has any further information.

Reactions: Informative 7


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## Stosta

Gizmo said:


> Trying to change some of my account details with payfast they told me casually that a new law has been processed that no Vaping / Tobacoo related goods are to be accpeted by payfast and other similar payment gateway services.
> 
> So in closing, our account looks like it will be closed as well as other vaping stores that use payfast..
> 
> It looks like the government is starting a banning process of vaping online first.
> 
> Please advise if anyone has any further information.




This is terrible news!

Reactions: Agree 5 | Optimistic 1


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## Richelo Killian

Big Tabaco seems to be leaning HEAVY on all governments, all over the world! Some other countries have it way worse!

I REALLY hope all vendors can find a solution FAST to this!

Truly TERRIBLE news!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rob Fisher

Vaping save lives... this move incenses me no end!

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Huffapuff

I haven't been too happy with PayFast - they struggle taking international credit card payments, which is why I use them.

@Gizmo check out PayGate, they have a monthly charge but seem far better...

Reactions: Like 1


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## incredible_hullk

very nice...months before iqos from bat comes in...surprise surprise

Reactions: Like 2


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## incredible_hullk

methinks we need to get a team together to represent sa vapers

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Deadz

Gizmo said:


> Trying to change some of my account details with payfast they told me casually that a new law has been processed that no Vaping / Tobacoo related goods are to be accpeted by payfast and other similar payment gateway services.
> 
> So in closing, our account looks like it will be closed as well as other vaping stores that use payfast..
> 
> It looks like the government is starting a banning process of vaping online first.
> 
> Please advise if anyone has any further information.



I would ask them specifically What "Law" they are referring to, Or does "Law" just mean company policy to the support person....

Reactions: Agree 4


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## incredible_hullk

i wonder if the logic is to have vape stores as b&m only to avoid underage selling

Reactions: Like 1


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## incredible_hullk

http://m.ewn.co.za/2017/01/25/are-e-cigarettes-the-safer-option-when-it-comes-to-smoking

gov intends regulating

Reactions: Like 1


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## PsyCLown

That is shocking, no vape related purchases allowed to be made through PayFast.

I am sure there is some work around through a different service.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gersh

"Vape related" is quite broad ,,, scissors, tweezers, cotton, wires, batteries, drills, kitchen scales, screw drivers, plastic bottles, glass bottles, beakers, scales, syringes ,,, so I guess these "common" items will also not be allowed to be made through payfast 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RichJB

Richelo Killian said:


> Big Tabaco seems to be leaning HEAVY on all governments, all over the world!



Why would big tobacco be behind this when millions of big tobacco cigalikes are sold online? It will affect big tobacco as much as it affects vaping. It's either a law by the govt (which should then be announced in the Government Gazette) or it will be policy by PayFast themselves. It is possible that there is some sort of blanket law designed to prevent the online purchase of age-restricted products and that PayFast are stopping it for fear of penalties. It wouldn't surprise me if this is the case. What is the point of B&M vendors preventing sales of age-restricted products to minors if kids can just go online and buy them? "You must be 18 to use our products - Over 18/Under 18?" really doesn't achieve anything.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## RichJB

Gersh said:


> so I guess these "common" items will also not be allowed to be made through payfast



I think their restrictions will be per vendor, not per product. Afaik PayFast don't know what I've bought from a vaping vendor, only that I have bought from them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## foGGyrEader

Oh for f**ks sake ... what next


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## Deckie

Very logical move in that these type of laws only make sense to the current people in power who can't even control illegal firearms, human trafficking, illegal immigrants & corruption amongst their own ranks . So they make irrational laws to throw smoke screens to hide the incompetence & to look like a super power. Yes some form of regulation needs to implemented. So maybe I'll have to implement a monthly road trip around the country to collect my vape gear.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## SAVapeGear

They will lose a lot of money seeing that they take 5% commission.

Things is going to get bad now.


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## Raindance

So much for building the economy. Started by legislating the SOC's into bankruptcy with the PFMA and now moving on to small businesses. 1 - 1 = 2 after all.

The drop in income from "sin taxes" due to smokers converting to vaping was due to elicit a reaction. This may be the impetus if indeed such a law has been passed.


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## Effjh

incredible_hullk said:


> very nice...months before iqos from bat comes in...surprise surprise



Iqos is PMI, not BAT.. not that it matters. BAT will have their own out soon too.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Gizmo

Email I received as confirmation from PayFast

Hi Warren,

As per our telephonic conversation earlier on today compliance has become a very important part of our operation and had to become very mindful of the rules, regulations and requirements of various bodies governing our operation including PASA, SARB, our partner banks and the card associations (VISA, Mastercard).

The sale of Tobacco and Tobacco products online in South Africa is illegal. The view on e-cigarettes was not quite as clear, them not strictly speaking being tobacco products.

This has been further clarified recently however, such they are considered to fall under the same legislation by the card associations and banks and more than likely soon by SA law as well.

This, unfortunately, means that we cannot support the sale of tobacco, tobacco products or e-cigarettes and their liquids going forward. This also includes any accessories directly related to smoking (hookah's, hubbly bubbly's etc.)

If you have any questions regarding this, please let me know.

Regards

----------------------------------------------------
Shane M :: PayFast (Pty) Ltd
https://www.payfast.co.za/
021 300 4455 






Sent from my MHA-AL00 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Informative 5


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## Raindance

Gizmo said:


> Email I received as confirmation from PayFast
> 
> Hi Warren,
> ....
> 
> Sent from my MHA-AL00 using Tapatalk



$#!t!


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## Crockett

Sounds like a really weird business decision. There's a law (uncited) which prohibits online sale of tobacco products. It doesn't cover ecig products, but we speculate that it will, at some unspecified time in the future. So we're removing our support for vaping businesses now, because ....???

Do you think he knows something we don't know?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BumbleBee

I put my heart and soul in to what I do.... and some P03$ comes along and takes a nice big fat wet soggy Sh!t on it all! I'm so sick of being screwed over! 

I have so many things running around in my head right now, so many things I want to say. But, what's the f&$K*& point!?

Thanks for the heads-up @Gizmo

Reactions: Agree 4


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## incredible_hullk

Crockett said:


> Sounds like a really weird business decision. There's a law (uncited) which prohibits online sale of tobacco products. It doesn't cover ecig products, but we speculate that it will, at some unspecified time in the future. So we're removing our support for vaping businesses now, because ....???
> 
> Do you think he knows something we don't know?



@Crockett they have to as the card issuers have deemed it to be the same


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## Atsbitscrisp

Vaping will move to an electronic currency not governed by any specific government. Vapecoins anyone?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## kev mac

Gizmo said:


> Trying to change some of my account details with payfast they told me casually that a new law has been processed that no Vaping / Tobacoo related goods are to be accpeted by payfast and other similar payment gateway services.
> 
> So in closing, our account looks like it will be closed as well as other vaping stores that use payfast..
> 
> It looks like the government is starting a banning process of vaping online first.
> 
> Please advise if anyone has any further information.


Typical government crap! Don't stand for it,contact your representatives

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Petrus

That is why I buy sooooo many fridge parts with PayPal aboard.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Petrus

It would be a hassle but unfortunately we can't fight such a decision from a bank or institution. We must order our goodies online and on checkout get a invoice and do a EFT into our vendors account. Unfortunately if the funds are cleared they must send our stuff. If we like it or not, the government will tax us on vape related stuff. My personal opinion, they don't want to stop vaping,they just want their taxes. I was waiting for three years for this one and unfortunately now it's here.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## M5000

If PayFast is merely complying they can't be blamed in which case there will be no alternative payment gateways. If it is only PayFast then we should start an anti-PayFast campaign. If it is all the payment gateways because they are merely complying with laws, then the vendors should rename their online divisions and sell "electronics and gadgets", decorative display boxes with electronic chips for hobbyists, and mini glass containers or sealed shot glasses, like explaining to customs what a mod is, you b/s them till they are confused enough to let it slide.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Petrus

Good Morning Guys.
After reading the disturbing news yesterday I decided to give Pay fast a go and went to the online stores. I did some shopping and my order is done????
Now I want to mention that I am running Kaspersky Internet Security and on checkout it redirects me to a secure banking app from Kaspersky. Now I wonder if this app/blocking device don't make things difficult for Pay fast to access my shopping details? Just a thought, and for the record @Andre ,I bought some concentrates for your DIY recipes that keeps on popping up.


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## Petrus

NOTE: I JUST GOT PAYMENT CONFORMATION FROM PAY FAST AND EVERYTHING WENT SMOOOOOOOTH.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deckie

Petrus said:


> NOTE: I JUST GOT PAYMENT CONFORMATION FROM PAY FAST AND EVERYTHING WENT SMOOOOOOOTH.


@Petrus I also used Payfast late yesterday afternoon, worked.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Richelo Killian

I have been involved in online commerce for a LONG time, and every now and then, because of some government regulation, something like this happens.

I am also an entrepreneur, and always looking for opportunities.

NOT saying I will be doing this, but, thinking about it, but, at the same time, happy to share so someone else might just jump on it ...

Someone COULD go and open a Mauritius business and bank account, and setup as an offshore card processor. Most of the more risky online niches like gambling and porn, have an offshore processor, MANY in Mauritius.

Now, before anyone jumps in saying this is illegal, it is NOT. MAIN thing is that the funds earned IS transferred back to SA, and PROPERLY declared as income at SARS.

The processing fees would be a little higher for the vendors, as well and funds transfer fees to local bank, AS WELL AS currency loss or sometimes gain.

Just thinking out loud. May just be the way forward for the Vaping industry in SA selling online.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## spiv

If vaping stuff is classified under the tobacco laws and it's illegal to sell tobacco products online, I think Payfast may just be the least of our worries. Most, if not all, vape shops have an online store.

My suggestion to get around this would be to do what places that aren't allowed to sell liquor do, and sell "tokens" that are then used to swop for goods. It's inconvenient and will make it more difficult for beginners. (This would create an even greater barrier to entry for new vapers though)

Reactions: Like 2 | Creative 1


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## Bunnypoison

@Richio , is there any update from BLCK's side regarding this? Luckily I ordered yesterday and received my goods this morning.


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## Petrus

Bunnypoison said:


> @Richio , is there any update from BLCK's side regarding this? Luckily I ordered yesterday and received my goods this morning.


Like I said in a previous post if you got problems with payfast do a EFT to the vendor wait a day extra and receive your goods.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## craigb

Petrus said:


> wait a day extra



wait? What's that?

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Bunnypoison

Petrus said:


> Like I said in a previous post if you got problems with payfast do a EFT to the vendor wait a day extra and receive your goods.


Makes sense, just kind of sucks getting used to the day of or next day delivery

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Crockett

spiv said:


> My suggestion to get around this would be to do what places that aren't allowed to sell liquor do, and sell "tokens" that are then used to swop for goods. It's inconvenient and will make it more difficult for beginners. (This would create an even greater barrier to entry for new vapers though)


Really great idea - so vape shops just sell gift vouchers via Payfast, then use the voucher loaded on your account to buy goods. Nice one.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## craigb

Crockett said:


> Really great idea - so vape shops just sell gift vouchers via Payfast, then use the voucher loaded on your account to buy goods. Nice one.



Would probably have to involve a third party. My understanding would be any company selling "undesirable" goods online would not be allowed to make use of a card processor. Even if the card processor isn't being directly used to sell said "undesirable" goods.

Then that third party, if all the vouchers are used for is to buy "undesirable" goods - they will be classified as "undesirable" related and blacklisted as well.


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## Ashley A

Gizmo said:


> Email I received as confirmation from PayFast
> 
> H....
> 
> The sale of *Tobacco and Tobacco products online in South Africa is illegal.* The view on e-cigarettes was not quite as clear, them not strictly speaking being tobacco products.
> 
> ...
> 
> This, unfortunately, means that we *cannot support the sale of tobacco, tobacco products* *or e-cigarettes and their liquids going forward*. ...



So the law seems to clearly state that they want to restrict the sale of tobacco products which I can largely agree with. We don't want little kids buying cigarettes, cigars.

Vaping is not a Tobacco. It is not smoking. Mods, atties, coils, batteries, chargers, wire, cotton etc have nothing to do with tobacco so why do Payfast suddenly take the tobacco law up top and then add e-cigs into it? At best it should be vendors can't sell tobacco flavours online if they contain real tobacco that that should be as far as it goes and vendors can just remove them as an option to purchase on their online carts. This will stop 99.9% of vaping purchases that have no relevance tobacco laws in the least. Everyone loses, us, the vendors, Payfast, so who is winning by this weird link?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## MrDeedz

Sad news. not good.If only the Vape community was so huge and in demand that Uber got on-board. UberVape. Buy your vape goodies from supporting vendors in your area and get them delivered right to you, Like UberEats. Thats in the perfect world!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ashley A

incredible_hullk said:


> @Crockett they have to as the card issuers have deemed it to be the same


Gosh, so VISA & Mastercard are going to tell me I can't swipe my card at a Twisp Kiosk down the line I guess.

Hey, there's a silver lining coming. No vendors will pay VAT on the purchases anymore since there'll be cash only purchases so our end prices will drop and there'll be no reference point for customs to base a price on when we us e-wallets to imports so everything will come with no custom charge.

Oh, certain BIG social apps have there own wallets that you can link to credit cards. the one I just set up 2 minutes ago even give you random rebates on your purchases when you pay using it. So I bought a value into that wallet from my card. I can then pay a vendor from that wallet using that app or another from a bank instead of exposing my card directly... Put those QR codes up on your sites vendors


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## Lukeness

I can't see them actually enforcing this with anything but actual nicotine containing e-juice.
Keep the word 'e-cigarette' off the store listings and most products are not identifiable as vaping related anyway.
Even the juice could mostly get around this by making sure the listing titles used in shopping carts are less obviously vaping related.


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## Hardtail1969

There are some nice greedy hands in goverment, that are not getting their slice of the vape pie.

This is South Africa, and this has much less to do with health than with graft in the end of the day.

I believe and will continue to, until the day we in this country have a proper, accountable and transparent goverment in place.

Until that day, all taxes, all laws are written and enforced selectively to benefit the ruling class.

Further, the fact that credit card companies and banks and related businesses have made this decision, is purely to protect themselves from being penalised by the goverment of the day, and fined huge pocket enriching amounts.

Here endeth the lesson....

Reactions: Like 1


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## Caveman

This isn't actually a South African law, as far as I am aware no law has been passed nor put for comment classifying vaping products as Tobacco so it is not quite yet our government's fault. PayFast are complying with the policies of VISA and MasterCard, similar to how they comply to to PCI, they can't afford to take any chances as they could lose their PCI compliance and effectively have to close down.


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## Stroodlepuff

For now we are still using payfast, they have not cut us off so we will see how it goes...

Reactions: Informative 1


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## RichJB

Hardtail1969 said:


> I believe and will continue to, until the day we in this country have a proper, accountable and transparent goverment in place.



Where would one find such a government? The US, EU, Aus, NZ, Canada all tax the hell out of cigarettes and are either planning on doing the same to vaping or have already done so.

If the SA govt came down like a ton of bricks on vaping while other governments were chilled about it, I think we'd have reason to complain. But, if anything, there are far fewer restrictions/taxes on vaping here than anywhere else. Aus and NZ vapers, to illustrate, aren't even allowed to buy nic from local vendors, they have to import it. SA also remains one of the cheapest countries in the world for smokers. The UK cost of cigarettes is truly staggering. 

Of course, it won't last forever, regulation and taxation of vaping products is imminent here. But I believe it won't be more restrictive or expensive than anywhere else. This is a global thing, not a SA government thing.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hardtail1969

RichJB said:


> Where would one find such a government? The US, EU, Aus, NZ, Canada all tax the hell out of cigarettes and are either planning on doing the same to vaping or have already done so.
> 
> If the SA govt came down like a ton of bricks on vaping while other governments were chilled about it, I think we'd have reason to complain. But, if anything, there are far fewer restrictions/taxes on vaping here than anywhere else. Aus and NZ vapers, to illustrate, aren't even allowed to buy nic from local vendors, they have to import it. SA also remains one of the cheapest countries in the world for smokers. The UK cost of cigarettes is truly staggering.
> 
> Of course, it won't last forever, regulation and taxation of vaping products is imminent here. But I believe it won't be more restrictive or expensive than anywhere else. This is a global thing, not a SA government thing.


NZ vapers, can source diy nic and nic ejuice locally. Incorrect to say they have to import.

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## RichJB

That's odd because I was talking to a Kiwi DIYer on Discord and he told me he imports his nic from the US. In addition, I found this on a NZ vaping DIY site:



> Current New Zealand laws do not allow us to sell nicotine e-liquid locally but you can import nicotine e-liquid for your own personal use.



And



> You may want to add nicotine to your juice. If this is the case we can recommend Nude Nicotine. They supply high quality nicotine at a great price. In New Zealand it is legal to import nicotine for personal use.



Why would a NZ vendor recommend Nude Nicotine, a US company?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Hardtail1969

RichJB said:


> That's odd because I was talking to a Kiwi DIYer on Discord and he told me he imports his nic from the US. In addition, I found this on a NZ vaping DIY site:
> 
> 
> 
> And
> 
> 
> 
> Why would a NZ vendor recommend Nude Nicotine, a US company?


From personal experience, and having visited a number of nz vape shops, that information is not current. 



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## Hardtail1969

And if you visit shops like shosa in NZ.. they all stock nic juices

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## Caveman

RichJB said:


> That's odd because I was talking to a Kiwi DIYer on Discord and he told me he imports his nic from the US. In addition, I found this on a NZ vaping DIY site:
> 
> 
> 
> And
> 
> 
> 
> Why would a NZ vendor recommend Nude Nicotine, a US company?


I remember reading on reddit that in Aus, you cannot sell ejuice containing nic, but they sell something which I though was quite cool, a doubler, I believe it's a very strong juice which is meant to be diluted by half, and they add their own nic. I can't say if you can buy nic there though.

On a different note, this is not even the government intervening. It's the card processors

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## RichJB

I have to say, I don't really get the point of the doubler thing. I heard about it on a NZ vaping site which offers this advice:



> Nicotine for vaping is generally supplied as a liquid with propylene glycol (PG) and/or vegetable glycerin (VG). You have two simple options to get nicotine liquid in NZ:
> 
> 
> Buy doublers from New Zealand or Australia, and unflavoured nicotine from the US or elsewhere, and mix them yourself.
> Import ready to vape liquids. These liquids contain nicotine, PG, VG and flavours mixed at a strength that you choose. This is the easiest way to get e-liquid, but also the most expensive. Also, if you run out, your next supplies can take weeks to arrive, putting you at risk of returning to smoking.
> *Mixing doublers*
> This is much cheaper and not much harder than importing pre-mixed juices. A doubler is a half-filled bottle of double strength flavoured PG and VG. You then mix nicotine liquid into the doubler to create nicotine e-liquid. The key is to import nicotine in a strength that is twice the strength you wish to vape.



So if I buy a 50ml doubler, I have to add 50ml liquid nicotine to get a finished juice. If you add 50ml of 36mg nic (the type we normally buy here) to a 50ml doubler, you will have 100ml of 18mg final juice. Take a deep lung hit on your Cloud Beast with that, and you will pull a Silver of note. Don't even get me started on 100mg nic.

So it seems you would have to buy 6mg nic if you want your juice to be the 3mg variety that most DIYers like. Now, I ask you with tears in my eyes, who sells 6mg per ml nic?!? Liquid Barn, for eg, only sells 48mg or 100mg nic. So you'd end up with a juice that is at least 24mg. Oooeee, that is going to bring tears to your eyes. This must be for cigalikes. There is no way you can vape that in a tank or dripper.

The other problem is that it will mess with your VG/PG ratios. The doubler contains VG, PG and flavouring (presumably PG). So you will have a mix that is at least part PG. Now you add PG nic to that? You will get a juice that is well over 50% PG, i.e. as runny as piss. I suppose you could add VG nic to get a mostly VG juice, or 50/50 nic to get a roughly 50/50 juice. But jeez, it's awkward. Just give me PG nic, PG, VG and flavours, and I'll create my juice to my own nic strength, flavour strength and VG/PG preferences. I'm so glad we don't have to jump through these hoops here.


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## Caveman

RichJB said:


> I have to say, I don't really get the point of the doubler thing. I heard about it on a NZ vaping site which offers this advice:
> 
> 
> 
> So if I buy a 50ml doubler, I have to add 50ml liquid nicotine to get a finished juice. If you add 50ml of 36mg nic (the type we normally buy here) to a 50ml doubler, you will have 100ml of 18mg final juice. Take a deep lung hit on your Cloud Beast with that, and you will pull a Silver of note. Don't even get me started on 100mg nic.
> 
> So it seems you would have to buy 6mg nic if you want your juice to be the 3mg variety that most DIYers like. Now, I ask you with tears in my eyes, who sells 6mg per ml nic?!? Liquid Barn, for eg, only sells 48mg or 100mg nic. So you'd end up with a juice that is at least 24mg. Oooeee, that is going to bring tears to your eyes. This must be for cigalikes. There is no way you can vape that in a tank or dripper.
> 
> The other problem is that it will mess with your VG/PG ratios. The doubler contains VG, PG and flavouring (presumably PG). So you will have a mix that is at least part PG. Now you add PG nic to that? You will get a juice that is well over 50% PG, i.e. as runny as piss. I suppose you could add VG nic to get a mostly VG juice, or 50/50 nic to get a roughly 50/50 juice. But jeez, it's awkward. Just give me PG nic, PG, VG and flavours, and I'll create my juice to my own nic strength, flavour strength and VG/PG preferences. I'm so glad we don't have to jump through these hoops here.


I hear you, I don't know about the advise on that site, sounds crazy, but the discussion on reddit the guy said he just buys 36mg nic and mixes that with vg/pg dependant on the ratio he wants and adds it to the doubler. I too am glad I don't have to go through all that effort though and much prefer mixing from scratch, that being said, if we had no other options I'm sure we would have adapted to it

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## n0ugh7_zw

Petrus said:


> Like I said in a previous post if you got problems with payfast do a EFT to the vendor wait a day extra and receive your goods.


 
Unfortunately EFT isn't an option for everyone. For me living up here an EFT is a non-starter, the government is deliberately putting EFT's on an indefinite wait, to try and stop hard currency leaving the country. So paying by Visa card is my only option. Granted I'm just 1 guy, but for perspective i've dropped around R40k+ on vaping with SA vendors in the last 6 months, nothing to sniff at.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Schnappie

Just tried to place an order and pay via payfast, an it just keeps loading, is it officially down now?


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## incredible_hullk

Schnappie said:


> Just tried to place an order and pay via payfast, an it just keeps loading, is it officially down now?


having the same issue my side @Schnappie

Reactions: Like 1


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## Schnappie

Will give it a while otherwise I will go the eft route

Reactions: Like 1


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## n0ugh7_zw

i'm so screwed if another payment gateway can't be implemented


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## Schnappie

Not good news at all


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## wiesbang

So I saw this. They allow Twisp???

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Eldene

I have had no problems with payfast i just did another transaction today and one 3 weeks ago.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## stevie g

Geez twisp must have some pull in the market to get that right.


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## Lukeness

There are actually several online cigar shops in SA serviced by PayFast in clear contravention of the laws so it's a bloody nerve for them to dictate to those who are well within it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Thaysa

kev mac said:


> Typical government crap! Don't stand for it,contact your representatives


For doing e-commerce, one platform that can be very useful is Jumpseller ( www.Jumpseller.com ), which has full integration with Payfast. Do check it out!

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Zeki Hilmi

Gizmo said:


> Trying to change some of my account details with payfast they told me casually that a new law has been processed that no Vaping / Tobacoo related goods are to be accpeted by payfast and other similar payment gateway services.
> 
> So in closing, our account looks like it will be closed as well as other vaping stores that use payfast..
> 
> It looks like the government is starting a banning process of vaping online first.
> 
> Please advise if anyone has any further information.


I havent had any problems so far. It all seems to be working my side ok.


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## YeOldeOke

I could shaddup and quickly sell my business before the other shoe drops, like I didn't at the start of the 2007 Sub-Prime crash, but it's not my style, and I am part of this community.

So it seems Payfast is clamping down. Our credit/debit card facility will be shut down COB 12/6/2017.

Seeing as 80% of our sales are credit/debit card that may be a fatal blow.

Other payment processors, both locally and internationally will be similarly affected as this is not a Payfast thing, it's Mastercard and Visa setting the rules. These rules are being set due to the FDA's Deeming regulations.

EFT will still be available until the SA government moves on them. If the FDA Deeming regs are withdrawn, as they may, then all this will go away. But in the meantime the question is the size of the impact. Without CC facility it will be very substantial, which will force prices up and choice down significantly. A lot of healthy competition is set to disappear. Very bad news for the vaper.

Until the SA gov moves to ban all online sales, things will limp on with EFT. Sales will drop drastically though, and many vendors may disappear. When the SA gov outlaws all sales online, it is going to affect everybody - online vendors, brick n mortar shops (will effectively be tied to their own geo area bar maybe a trickle of workarounds) vaper's choice will crash and costs skyrocket. Everybody loses when competition dies.

The last hope is the FDA Deeming regs being scrapped. Else we will have a severely crippled market. All kind of little workarounds will appear, but costs will rise and choice will crash. The non-forum man-in-the-street vaper will find it very hard to motivate their continued cigarette quitting attempt.

Sad, but unless we as the vaping community can come up with a workable solution for everybody in the community and not just little inefficient workarounds per individual, we will all be seriously affected.

We really need to pool ideas urgently. If I manage an efficient workaround and say 'Hey, this gives me a competitive advantage!' and the rest of the industry dies slowly, the vapers will also start giving up and my 'competitive advantage' will turn to a tombstone for my business. We all rely on a vibrant vaping community - vapers and traders alike.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Informative 3


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## boxerulez

YeOldeOke said:


> I could shaddup and quickly sell my business before the other shoe drops, but it's not my style, and I am part of this community.
> 
> So it seems Payfast is clamping down. Our credit/debit card facility will be shut down COB 12/6/2017.
> 
> Seeing as 80% of our sales are credit/debit card that may be a fatal blow.
> 
> Other payment processors, both locally and internationally will be similarly affected as this is not a Payfast thing, it's Mastercard and Visa setting the rules. These rules are being set due to the FDA's Deeming regulations.
> 
> EFT will still be available until the SA government moves on them. If the FDA Deeming regs are withdrawn, as they may, then all this will go away. But in the meantime the question is the size of the impact. Without CC facility it will be very substantial, which will force prices up and choice down significantly. A lot of healthy competition is set to disappear. Very bad news for the vaper.
> 
> Until the SA gov moves to ban all online sales, things will limp on with EFT. Sales will drop drastically though, and many vendors may disappear. When the SA gov outlaws all sales online, it is going to affect everybody - online vendors, brick n mortar shops (will effectively be tied to their own geo area bar maybe a trickle of workarounds) vaper's choice will crash and costs skyrocket. Everybody loses when competition dies.
> 
> The last hope is the FDA Deeming regs being scrapped. Else we will have a severely crippled market. All kind of little workarounds will appear, but costs will rise and choice will crash. The non-forum man-in-the-street vaper will find it very hard to motivate their continued cigarette quitting attempt.
> 
> Sad, but unless we as the vaping community can come up with a workable solution for everybody in the community and not just little inefficient workarounds per individual, we will all be seriously affected.
> 
> We really need to pool ideas urgently. If I manage an efficient workaround and say 'Hey, this gives me a competitive advantage!' and the rest of the industry dies slowly, the vapers will also start giving up and my 'competitive advantage' will turn to a tombstone for my business. We all rely on a vibrant vaping community - vapers and traders alike.



I dont see how


Gizmo said:


> Trying to change some of my account details with payfast they told me casually that a new law has been processed that no Vaping / Tobacoo related goods are to be accpeted by payfast and other similar payment gateway services.
> 
> So in closing, our account looks like it will be closed as well as other vaping stores that use payfast..
> 
> It looks like the government is starting a banning process of vaping online first.
> 
> Please advise if anyone has any further information.


Is your payfast still up and running @Gizmo ?


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## Stroodlepuff

We are for now, we are still trying to figure out a solution...


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## boxerulez

Stroodlepuff said:


> We are for now, we are still trying to figure out a solution...


So have they definitely given you the red light also?


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## Ashley A

Online shopping is now and the future. I don't think the government is going to ban progress as they are going to suffer a lot from it with reduced tax. Think of Take A Lot, Spree, Superbalist etc suddenly not being able to sell online? They are exclusively online businesses.

Then the likes of PnP online, Dion Wired, Makro, Incredible Connection, Direct Deals etc all moving to online sales. On top of that, nearly all holiday/vacation and airline tickets are purchased via card. Then there's things like GooglePlay and iStore for games, apps, content. Services like Netflix, ShowMax that rely very heavy on online card payments. I'm not sure were you got this information from?

Payfast is not the only means of payment. All those companies mentioned at the top are owned by the group I work for which would not exist if such a thing happened so you can be sure we won't let it happen and the government would rather work with us than shutdown the biggest thing they have in this country. We already make use of alternative payment methods from WeChat, SnapScan, Vouchers, Bitcoin, even mPesa and other mobile money alternatives from airtime in other countries so it's not doom and gloom. It's one payment gateway who hasn't fought back for it's customers and they'll probably be the one to die if they don't protect their customers. I new player will take it's place, hell we own one of those too (PayU) so it might create an opportunity in this country.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## SAVapeGear

Suspension of card processing services

As per recent card scheme (VISA & Mastercard) communication, all merchants in the business of sales relating to ecigarettes, vaping and their accessories are now considered "High Risk" merchants and subject to additional compliance requirements on the part of acquirers and payment processors.

Unfortunately, PayFast and our partner banks cannot process payments for "High Risk" merchants and as a result of this change by the card schemes, it will not be possible for PayFast to continue providing you with card processing services.

While we value your business and this state of affairs is regrettable, we must comply with the card schemes and our partner banks' requirements in this regard and will de-activate card payments on your account with effect from COB 12 June 2017.

We will currently still be able to process payment by non-card payment mechanisms (Instant EFT, bitcoin and mobicred) but all card payment mechanisms (credit, cheque and debit cards) are required to be deactivated as soon as possible. We are providing notice of 3 working weeks in terms of this communication.

Our only recommendation in this regard is that you seek an acquirer (bank) who is able to process transactions for "High Risk" merchants and engage with a payment service provider who is able to process transactions against your own high risk merchant account held with such acquirer.

It should be noted however, that to the best of our knowledge, the majority of acquirers in South Africa do not support high risk merchant processing and you might want to revise your systems, processes and business model to assume that payment by card will no longer be possible in the future.

It should further be noted that, in the United States, the FDA recently set out Deeming Rights (guidelines) that ecigarettes should be classified as "tobacco products". Should South African legislation follow suit (which is likely), the sale of ecigarettes and their accessories (whether they contain nicotine or not) will no longer be allowed online as per the Tobacco Products Control Act, 1993 (Act No. 83 of 1993) which prohibits such.

Should that come to pass, we will be forced to suspend payment processing on your account entirely as the nature of your business will then be deemed illegal under South African Law.

We apologise for this state of affairs, but hope that you understand that the matter is out of our hands and affects all acquirers and payment service providers providing card services from VISA and Mastercard.

Our customer services team is available to answer questions you may have in this regard, but this communication is intended to be as comprehensive as possible regarding this matter and it is unlikely that they will be able to provide any further information than has not already been provided here. They will also, regrettably, be unable to offer an extension to the deadline communicated above.

If you feel that you are being sent this notice incorrectly, and your account with PayFast is not involved with sales relating to ecigarettes, vaping and their accessories, please do contact our customer services team and inform them of such as soon as possible.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## YeOldeOke

Ashley A said:


> Online shopping is now and the future. I don't think the government is going to ban progress as they are going to suffer a lot from it with reduced tax. Think of Take A Lot, Spree, Superbalist etc suddenly not being able to sell online? They are exclusively online businesses.
> 
> Then the likes of PnP online, Dion Wired, Makro, Incredible Connection, Direct Deals etc all moving to online sales. On top of that, nearly all holiday/vacation and airline tickets are purchased via card. Then there's things like GooglePlay and iStore for games, apps, content. Services like Netflix, ShowMax that rely very heavy on online card payments. I'm not sure were you got this information from?
> 
> Payfast is not the only means of payment. All those companies mentioned at the top are owned by the group I work for which would not exist if such a thing happened so you can be sure we won't let it happen and the government would rather work with us than shutdown the biggest thing they have in this country. We already make use of alternative payment methods from WeChat, SnapScan, Vouchers, Bitcoin, even mPesa and other mobile money alternatives from airtime in other countries so it's not doom and gloom. It's one payment gateway who hasn't fought back for it's customers and they'll probably be the one to die if they don't protect their customers. I new player will take it's place, hell we own one of those too (PayU) so it might create an opportunity in this country.


All the above doesn't apply. The issue is FDA Deeming regs - deeming vaping equipment, juice and accessories as tobacco products. Even 0mg juice, or coil wire. The issue is not payment processor related, it's Visa and Mastercard.

In itself the vaping industry in SA will not motivate a new player in the cc or even 'high risk' processor arena, the market is way too small.

All the various bits and pieces of mickey mouse payment players will never sustain an industry. Bitcoin? We take bitcoin. Never had a transaction on it.

The only possible option I can see at the moment is international high risk payment processors. Problem - their names are unknown to local consumers, thus no user confidence or trust in an online transaction, and very high fees plus fx fees etc. All again pushing prices up and transactions down.

Currently the last option is the only semi-viable option I can see.


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## SAVapeGear

And then it happened !!!


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## RichJB

Eish, that is bad news indeed. Not too catastrophic for us in the bigger centres as collection is always an option. But I really feel for the guys out in the sticks who can't get to a store easily. I suppose the powers-that-be don't want any age-restricted products to be online as the "You must be 18 to use this website" is, if anything, more an inducement than a deterrent. @YeOldeOke, any idea on the timeline for EFTs being stopped?


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## SAVapeGear

https://www.ecigssa.co.za/payfast-compliance-notice-ecigarette-and-vape-merchants.t37829/

Suspension of card processing services

As per recent card scheme (VISA & Mastercard) communication, all merchants in the business of sales relating to ecigarettes, vaping and their accessories are now considered "High Risk" merchants and subject to additional compliance requirements on the part of acquirers and payment processors.

Unfortunately, PayFast and our partner banks cannot process payments for "High Risk" merchants and as a result of this change by the card schemes, it will not be possible for PayFast to continue providing you with card processing services.

While we value your business and this state of affairs is regrettable, we must comply with the card schemes and our partner banks' requirements in this regard and will de-activate card payments on your account with effect from COB 12 June 2017.

We will currently still be able to process payment by non-card payment mechanisms (Instant EFT, bitcoin and mobicred) but all card payment mechanisms (credit, cheque and debit cards) are required to be deactivated as soon as possible. We are providing notice of 3 working weeks in terms of this communication.

Our only recommendation in this regard is that you seek an acquirer (bank) who is able to process transactions for "High Risk" merchants and engage with a payment service provider who is able to process transactions against your own high risk merchant account held with such acquirer.

It should be noted however, that to the best of our knowledge, the majority of acquirers in South Africa do not support high risk merchant processing and you might want to revise your systems, processes and business model to assume that payment by card will no longer be possible in the future.

It should further be noted that, in the United States, the FDA recently set out Deeming Rights (guidelines) that ecigarettes should be classified as "tobacco products". Should South African legislation follow suit (which is likely), the sale of ecigarettes and their accessories (whether they contain nicotine or not) will no longer be allowed online as per the Tobacco Products Control Act, 1993 (Act No. 83 of 1993) which prohibits such.

Should that come to pass, we will be forced to suspend payment processing on your account entirely as the nature of your business will then be deemed illegal under South African Law.

We apologise for this state of affairs, but hope that you understand that the matter is out of our hands and affects all acquirers and payment service providers providing card services from VISA and Mastercard.

Our customer services team is available to answer questions you may have in this regard, but this communication is intended to be as comprehensive as possible regarding this matter and it is unlikely that they will be able to provide any further information than has not already been provided here. They will also, regrettably, be unable to offer an extension to the deadline communicated above.

If you feel that you are being sent this notice incorrectly, and your account with PayFast is not involved with sales relating to ecigarettes, vaping and their accessories, please do contact our customer services team and inform them of such as soon as possible.


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## aktorsyl

RichJB said:


> Eish, that is bad news indeed. Not too catastrophic for us in the bigger centres as collection is always an option. But I really feel for the guys out in the sticks who can't get to a store easily. I suppose the powers-that-be don't want any age-restricted products to be online as the "You must be 18 to use this website" is, if anything, more an inducement than a deterrent. @YeOldeOke, any idea on the timeline for EFTs being stopped?


EFT's would be stopped once Parliament passes a law (most likely an amendment to the Tobacco Act) classifying vape gear etc as tobacco products. I'd assume it'd have to be gazetted first (correct me if I'm wrong), so not all that soon, I'd think.
However, I'm not a lawyer - we have a few on here. I'm hoping they respond here, cos right now there's a LOT of questions


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## incredible_hullk

I need to move to KZN then to get the latest and greatest

Reactions: Can relate 1


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## SAVapeGear

incredible_hullk said:


> I need to move to KZN then to get the latest and greatest


Just stock up on some Reo's,OL16s and some DIY stuffs.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## YeOldeOke

RichJB said:


> Eish, that is bad news indeed. Not too catastrophic for us in the bigger centres as collection is always an option. But I really feel for the guys out in the sticks who can't get to a store easily. I suppose the powers-that-be don't want any age-restricted products to be online as the "You must be 18 to use this website" is, if anything, more an inducement than a deterrent. @YeOldeOke, any idea on the timeline for EFTs being stopped?



As @aktorsyl said. However the timeline may be sooner than we think, after this move by MC/Visa.

But I am seriously concerned about the impact even before that. I've been in e-commerce for decades, in the US, UK and Asia markets. For online transactions trust, user confidence and efficiency are absolutely critical. People from the forum know most of us, so apart from the turnoff and irritation of having to do an EFT, even through Payfast, vs a quick cc transaction they will continue to do business. However, the bulk of customers isn't necessarily of the forum or even aware of the forum. That is where the big whammy will come from first, even while EFT is still available.

That doesn't mean that in that period forum dwellers  won't feel the impact. If any business loses a substantial % of it's revenue, it is either close down or raise prices (which has it's own negative spiral). Increased marketing is of course an option in a steady market, but if the market is wobbly and threatened from various angles that option disappears, unless you're a high risk player.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## AndreH

Not good!


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## Chronix

What are the additional compliance requirements?


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## Chukin'Vape




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## incredible_hullk

And no more eBucks (((

Reactions: Can relate 1


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## RichJB

aktorsyl said:


> EFT's would be stopped once Parliament passes a law (most likely an amendment to the Tobacco Act) classifying vape gear etc as tobacco products. I'd assume it'd have to be gazetted first (correct me if I'm wrong), so not all that soon, I'd think.



Yes, it would have to go through the "stakeholder engagement" and public comments phases as all other laws do. Although I think that could happen quite quickly. Seeing as both NA and the EU have chosen to regulate vaping, it's pretty much a slam-dunk for the legislators. I foresee us following the EU's TPD quite closely. There doesn't seem to be any great urgency on government's part but that could change in a hurry as well. Anyway, let's hope they get sidetracked with other health issues for as long as possible.


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## DanielSLP

Time to start accepting bitcoin


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## Gizmo

Yup, I warned all of you that payfast were going to do this.. Here it comes unfortunately

Reactions: Agree 1


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## craigb

So the two major CC companies have managed to dent global trade in as large a manner as people were worried big pharmaceutical and tobacco were going to. 

Maybe we need to get an influential South African family to invest in a few vape shops to ensure the local industry's future

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ashley A

So it's happening!

Anyone think of any ways around this yet? The vendors who figure it out will be the one's to come out smiling since the business will naturally go to him.

Hey, Take A Lot is still selling vape goodies without any issue so maybe just join them as a lot of suppliers do (the sold by X, fullfilled by Take A Lot...)

Why not sell virtual value vouchers on BoB and then we simply pay for that which has a value and we use that code on your website on goods?

Maybe register a florist as a separate business that processes payments and only have a vape website for informative purposes but does not process any payments if you get my drift.

As I said, it's happening. We can cry about PayFast/Mastercard/Visa, the FDA and our government all we want until it kills a business or you can find an alternative already because someone who wants it's bad enough will find one and they will steal your lunch.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Allenh1

SnapScan is a definite option - I use it to pay on a few websites/online stores (OneDayOnly as example) and works like a dream - never had any hassles paying like this.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Caveman

Allenh1 said:


> SnapScan is a definite option - I use it to pay on a few websites/online stores (OneDayOnly as example) and works like a dream - never had any hassles paying like this.


Nope, it's still processing through your cards. EFT or a smoke screen shop is needed. 

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


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## AndreH

Can anyone confirm this? Cannot seem to find anything on the net apart from this thread and old stuff from 2016


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## Vaperite South Africa

So how do Visa and Mastercard allow the major retailers and petrol stations selling cigarettes to accept credit cards? Is this only for online shops or all vape shops?


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## RichJB

Online shops I would think. Isn't the big issue that kids can buy online, and this is why cigarette sales are banned online but not in supermarkets?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## YeOldeOke

RichJB said:


> Online shops I would think. Isn't the big issue that kids can buy online, and this is why cigarette sales are banned online but not in supermarkets?



Online sales of vaping equipment isn't banned anywhere yet, that I know of. Oz I've heard some things but haven't been paying attention to what's happening there. Visa/Mastercard has followed the FDA regs a while back already in classifying vaping stuff as tobacco. It isn't banned by them, it was declared high risk. If you look at international merchant accounts you'll see this.

SA is a backwater, and MC/V hasn't clamped down on processors here until it seems now. The problem isn't that it is banned, it is that the processors have to adhere to stricter standards and probably higher fees in processing transactions and the local ones are not geared up for it or regard the market as too small to bother with it.


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## Petrus

For me it isn't so disturbing, from the first thread, if I order say from the Sirs, they send me an invoice and I do an EFT. I must admit what is disturbing is the fact that so many minors is walking around with vapes, THAT my friends is making it difficult for all of us.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## YeOldeOke

Petrus said:


> For me it isn't so disturbing, from the first thread, if I order say from the Sirs, they send me an invoice and I do an EFT. I must admit what is disturbing is the fact that so many minors is walking around with vapes, THAT my friends is making it difficult for all of us.



It has zero to do with minors, everything to do with pharma. Minors are just the acceptable excuse. If no minors were ever vaping there would be another excuse.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## RichJB

Thanks for the clarification, @YeOldeOke. What do the "stricter standards" relate to, though, if not sales to minors? I was chatting about this in Discord and American vapers don't seem to have any problems with Visa/Mastercard there. Is this because their processors are willing to go the extra mile?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Caveman

I still have some friends in the online CC processing business. I started my career working for an online CC processing company. Will ask them if they've heard anything official from MC/V

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 3


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## YeOldeOke

RichJB said:


> Thanks for the clarification, @YeOldeOke. What do the "stricter standards" relate to, though, if not sales to minors? I was chatting about this in Discord and American vapers don't seem to have any problems with Visa/Mastercard there. Is this because their processors are willing to go the extra mile?



I'm not 100% sure exactly what it entails, but e-cigs get dumped into high risk with tobacco, porn, gambling etc.



> To state it simply, primary concerns for merchant processors include increased possibility of fraud and/or excessive chargebacks. Merchant processors go to great lengths to avoid both of these. Inside the USA, where merchants are issued social security numbers and employer identificaiton numbers, it's easier to locate a merchant in the event of fraud. Since social security numbers are not issued outside of the USA, US banks will typically not underwrite merchant accounts for businesses outside of the USA, so non-US merchants are forced to use a non-US merchant processor.



Maybe why they are easier on it in the US, dunno. Or they already pay high risk fees.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## YeOldeOke

@RichJB


> *MasterCard’s revised policy to comply with US FDA’s tobacco products regulations*
> As a consequence of recent changes in US FDA’s authority over tobacco products, including vaping products, MasterCard revised their policy for vaping businesses to include Business Risk Assessment and Mitigation (BRAM) compliance program on August 2016. A change that may be detrimental to small businesses.



http://www.vapingpost.com/2016/11/1...ly-with-us-fdas-tobacco-products-regulations/


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## RichJB

Thanks, that VapingPost article tallies with my assumption that sales to minors was the issue. That said, I think there are two factors in play here. The Visa and Mastercard clampdown in the US is one. However, if we take this paragraph from the communique that @SAVapeGear posted:



> It should further be noted that, in the United States, the FDA recently set out Deeming Rights (guidelines) that ecigarettes should be classified as "tobacco products". Should South African legislation follow suit (which is likely), the sale of ecigarettes and their accessories (whether they contain nicotine or not) will no longer be allowed online as per the Tobacco Products Control Act, 1993 (Act No. 83 of 1993) which prohibits such.



there is also the clear implication that they (PayFast, not Visa or Mastercard) expect online vaping sales to be prohibited in the future, should the SA legislation go the way they foresee. So I guess this SA move is part Visa/Mastercard and US deeming regulations, part PayFast and the SA legislation.

I think this is why, as you note, vaping is lumped in with tobacco, gambling, porn, etc. The first commonality that strikes me is that these are all age-restricted activities. I suppose the "high risk" element for processors is that, should a vendor be caught and prosecuted for selling online to minors, the processor becomes an accessory to/enabler of illegal activity. It might not be prosecutable but it's probably an image that processors don't want to have. If someone wants to become the next Elon Musk, I imagine that finding a way to verify the age of the online buyer would be a great way to do it. Maybe some registration system where adult buyers are issued with a unique PIN to identify them as over 21?


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## aktorsyl

RichJB said:


> Thanks, that VapingPost article tallies with my assumption that sales to minors was the issue. That said, I think there are two factors in play here. The Visa and Mastercard clampdown in the US is one. However, if we take this paragraph from the communique that @SAVapeGear posted:
> 
> 
> 
> there is also the clear implication that they (PayFast, not Visa or Mastercard) expect online vaping sales to be prohibited in the future, should the SA legislation go the way they foresee. So I guess this SA move is part Visa/Mastercard and US deeming regulations, part PayFast and the SA legislation.
> 
> I think this is why, as you note, vaping is lumped in with tobacco, gambling, porn, etc. The first commonality that strikes me is that these are all age-restricted activities. I suppose the "high risk" element for processors is that, should a vendor be caught and prosecuted for selling online to minors, the processor becomes an accessory to/enabler of illegal activity. It might not be prosecutable but it's probably an image that processors don't want to have. If someone wants to become the next Elon Musk, I imagine that finding a way to verify the age of the online buyer would be a great way to do it. Maybe some registration system where adult buyers are issued with a unique PIN to identify them as over 21?


Maybe. What I keep wondering is whether a law classifying vaping equipment as tobacco products and therefore banning online sales thereof would pass muster when taken from Parliament to the constitutional court. They're usually not in the line of letting silly lobbyist laws stay in place. Juice containing nicotine might still be a thing, though.


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## DanielSLP

RichJB said:


> Thanks, that VapingPost article tallies with my assumption that sales to minors was the issue. That said, I think there are two factors in play here. The Visa and Mastercard clampdown in the US is one. However, if we take this paragraph from the communique that @SAVapeGear posted:
> 
> 
> 
> there is also the clear implication that they (PayFast, not Visa or Mastercard) expect online vaping sales to be prohibited in the future, should the SA legislation go the way they foresee. So I guess this SA move is part Visa/Mastercard and US deeming regulations, part PayFast and the SA legislation.
> 
> I think this is why, as you note, vaping is lumped in with tobacco, gambling, porn, etc. The first commonality that strikes me is that these are all age-restricted activities. I suppose the "high risk" element for processors is that, should a vendor be caught and prosecuted for selling online to minors, the processor becomes an accessory to/enabler of illegal activity. It might not be prosecutable but it's probably an image that processors don't want to have. If someone wants to become the next Elon Musk, I imagine that finding a way to verify the age of the online buyer would be a great way to do it. Maybe some registration system where adult buyers are issued with a unique PIN to identify them as over 21?



In theory this is actually a lot simpler to do. Currently home affair has HANIS. Which allows for online verification of a person. Once we get to fingerprint biometrics, we can compare the fingerprints against home affairs and verify that it is in fact an adult buying. But a simpler method would just to do fica identification on a client.


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## RichJB

Yes, it surely can't be that difficult to verify an online buyer's age? Even if the vendor or processor didn't have access to Home Affairs records and couldn't be given it due to privacy blah blah blah, how hard is it to set up a "buying club" where you pay R50 a year for membership, you give them a certified copy of your ID, they register you as a unique adult user and issue you with a PIN. And if you want to buy vape gear or alcohol or porn or some other age-restricted product online, you have an additional step where you enter your PIN and it verifies with the organisation before allowing you to proceed. It's an extra layer of bureaucracy but it's surely better than a situation where Mother Grundies are up in arms because of sales to minors.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## DanielSLP

The thing is it's not impossible, but it won't be good enough for MC/V/Europay. They want face to face authentication. But my advise to all vendors is to look into what processors local adult sites use.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Lukeness

Someone needs to come up with a local token-based system. I.E. buyers purchase tokens which are then redeemable for products. This was an old loophole used to get around certain liquor license trading rules. Each site could also, theoretically, run it's own token or voucher system.


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## aktorsyl

Or vaping speakeasy's

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ashley A

This minor stuff is hearsay made up in this thread right here. It has not been given as the reason. Most cases minors do not have VISA or Mastercards and online banking in any case. Alcohol is still sold freely online by numerous retailers and all that's taken into account is there disclaimer and the age the buyer captured online when they signed up so the same could be said there.

Maybe it's just Twisp trying a different route since the letters didn't work, lol.

What about Western Union and PayU since they do the same thing and are way bigger than Payfast in other parts of the world? Paypal on another company should be fine to as long as it's not classified as "high risk".


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## craigb

Setting up another non vape related company as a "front" to receive CC payments would quite possibly be considered money laundering. A basic definition of money laundering is disguising the true origin of funds.

A dummy front company is not a viable option.


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## SAVapeGear

Some members like @stevie g is so upset with this that he dislikes all my posts.LOL

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ashley A

craigb said:


> Setting up another non vape related company as a "front" to receive CC payments would quite possibly be considered money laundering. A basic definition of money laundering is disguising the true origin of funds.
> 
> A dummy front company is not a viable option.


Nah, it's still going from buyer directly to vendor. No laundering at all and no law says you can't have 2 or more businesses like a florist, and a toy shop, and an e-card shop, oh and a vaping shop too. Pitty the last one doesn't make any money online.

Reactions: Like 1


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## craigb

Ashley A said:


> Nah, it's still going from buyer directly to vendor. No laundering at all and no law says you can't have 2 or more businesses like a florist, and a toy shop, and an e-card shop, oh and a vaping shop too. Pitty the last one doesn't make any money online.



It is obfuscating the nature of the transaction and according to my understanding of FICA it could get you into trouble. I did get training on FICA but I think I threw the manuals out when I left the bank, so I do stand to be corrected by someone that knows better.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## rogue zombie

Petrus said:


> For me it isn't so disturbing, from the first thread, if I order say from the Sirs, they send me an invoice and I do an EFT. I must admit what is disturbing is the fact that so many minors is walking around with vapes, THAT my friends is making it difficult for all of us.



Ya, we can just use the old fashioned way - EFT. 
I loved PAYFAST EFT, but if I have to wait a day or two for money to clear, I can do so.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## RichJB

Ashley A said:


> This minor stuff is hearsay made up in this thread right here. It has not been given as the reason.



Did you read the VapingPost link? Key excerpt:



> In response to age restrictions imposed by the federal and the state laws, MasterCard enables signature when ordering and on delivery with the “adult signature” functions. It does not only set a *de facto age limit to 21* (even if some states allow the 18-20 to vape), this new regime also sets *shipping costs at a higher rate* than with a normal transaction. With the “Adult Signatures on delivery”, USPS, UPS, and FedEx also require the* presentation of a valid government issued ID* to sign on delivery.



Online sales to minors has also become a concern in the UK. But fair enough, if sales to minors isn't the real reason, then what is?

Edit: just found this article which explains a bit more about high risk merchants. It's quite a big list.


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## stevie g

SAVapeGear said:


> Some members like @stevie g is so upset with this that he dislikes all my posts.LOL


 whiskey brain, my bad. Removed the dislikes from your posts.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## boxerulez

craigb said:


> Setting up another non vape related company as a "front" to receive CC payments would quite possibly be considered money laundering. A basic definition of money laundering is disguising the true origin of funds.
> 
> A dummy front company is not a viable option.[/Q





craigb said:


> It is obfuscating the nature of the transaction and according to my understanding of FICA it could get you into trouble. I did get training on FICA but I think I threw the manuals out when I left the bank, so I do stand to be corrected by someone that knows better.



Was that day as good for you as it was for me? I even closed all my accounts so I never have to set foot in a Standard Bank again lol.

Really though, EFT is not the end of the world and as per their communication, instant eft will still be online and available, so it will only really negatively impact capitec account holders (Like me)

I will just have to open a FNB savings account for my vape purchases.


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## Lukeness

craigb said:


> It is obfuscating the nature of the transaction and according to my understanding of FICA it could get you into trouble. I did get training on FICA but I think I threw the manuals out when I left the bank, so I do stand to be corrected by someone that knows better.


It's the same as using ebucks. There is only a single transaction and the whole thing is done within the same company, so there are full records. There are many online businesses that use token exchange.


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## boxerulez

Vendors can sell vouchers for stores x y and z, and customer only use it at store z (vape shop)


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## RichJB

I suppose one of the complicating factors is that vendors here don't use their own delivery services but rather couriers. In the UK article, they mentioned that supermarket and alcohol outlets deliver via their own vans and the driver is obliged to satisfy him/herself that the receiving customer is over 18. That would probably be too big a burden for the courier companies here or they would be likely to add a surcharge if they were legally obliged to do it.

Having read through the Tobacco Act, there is nothing in there that specifically forbids cigarette sales online. However it is very clear that sales to under-18s are forbidden. So I guess Pick n Pay and other online outlets don't offer cigarettes online for fear of being prosecuted. Makro still have cigarettes as an online category but the page remains blank when you load it and there are no products to select. At least, it does for me.

I'm a bit bemused as to how alcohol outlets manage to get away with online sales. Although there isn't the same hysteria around alcohol as there is for tobacco. I suppose it's a numbers game. Most people drink alcohol to some extent but smokers are a minority. So it's easier to legislate against tobacco than against alcohol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DangerDave

RichJB said:


> I suppose one of the complicating factors is that vendors here don't use their own delivery services but rather couriers. In the UK article, they mentioned that supermarket and alcohol outlets deliver via their own vans and the driver is obliged to satisfy him/herself that the receiving customer is over 18. That would probably be too big a burden for the courier companies here or they would be likely to add a surcharge if they were legally obliged to do it.
> 
> Having read through the Tobacco Act, there is nothing in there that specifically forbids cigarette sales online. However it is very clear that sales to under-18s are forbidden. So I guess Pick n Pay and other online outlets don't offer cigarettes online for fear of being prosecuted. Makro still have cigarettes as an online category but the page remains blank when you load it and there are no products to select. At least, it does for me.
> 
> I'm a bit bemused as to how alcohol outlets manage to get away with online sales. Although there isn't the same hysteria around alcohol as there is for tobacco. I suppose it's a numbers game. Most people drink alcohol to some extent but smokers are a minority. So it's easier to legislate against tobacco than against alcohol.



Some of the courier companies here do verification though? If you've ever had a bank card delivered to you, you have to give the guy a copy of your ID as well as present the original ID. The driver then checks that you are the person in the ID, and that the ID matches the copy they have been given... Surely a similar system could be used?


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## RichJB

I guess so. I believe some courier companies also ask for ID when delivering to prove that you are the recipient named on the waybill, although I've never had to show it. The thing is that the vendor would then need to instruct the courier that it's an age-restricted package. I would imagine the vast majority of courier parcels don't require age verification. So it's an extra PITA for the courier and questionable whether their drivers would even bother with it most of the time.


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## Caveman

DangerDave said:


> Some of the courier companies here do verification though? If you've ever had a bank card delivered to you, you have to give the guy a copy of your ID as well as present the original ID. The driver then checks that you are the person in the ID, and that the ID matches the copy they have been given... Surely a similar system could be used?


It's a flawed system that. Too much human interaction. My previous cards both got given to me without a single check of any documents. 

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


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## RichJB

Caveman said:


> My previous cards both got given to me without a single check of any documents.



See my comment about it being too much of a PITA for the couriers. This was also identified as a problem in the UK with van drivers being required to satisfy themselves that the customer is 18 for alcohol deliveries. Many couldn't be bothered.


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## incredible_hullk

so I see 1 vendors account has already been suspended


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## Vino1718

incredible_hullk said:


> so I see 1 vendors account has already been suspended


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## DangerDave

RichJB said:


> I guess so. I believe some courier companies also ask for ID when delivering to prove that you are the recipient named on the waybill, although I've never had to show it. The thing is that the vendor would then need to instruct the courier that it's an age-restricted package. I would imagine the vast majority of courier parcels don't require age verification. So it's an extra PITA for the courier and questionable whether their drivers would even bother with it most of the time.



But that shifts the responsibility... The banks have very strict rules for who they give cards to. They then hand that responsibility to the courier company, which would be controlled by an SLA of sort? So surely if every step of the transaction is geared towards making it impossible for minors to buy, i.e. Require a credit card, require age verification on delivery, etc. that should satisfy anyrehulatroy requirements?

Ultimately it comes down to a work around though. I'm going to chat to some people in the know... maybe we can come up with a workable solution, specifically for SA vape shops.


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## RichJB

I'm not sure sales to minors is the only issue. But from the "high risk merchants" article I read and linked earlier, the category of risk that most seems to fit vaping is "things which are borderline illegal". Even if one is able to design a system that eliminates sales to minors, smoking has such a bad rep and companies are so keen to distance themselves from it that, should vaping be lumped in with tobacco, companies may still prefer to turn down the business.

It is nevertheless something that society will need to look into as it's not just tobacco and vaping where online sales to minors is a problem. Increasingly, commerce is becoming online. And with the threat of mugging and crime, it makes sense for schoolkids to have debit cards rather than cash. So, at some point, society will need to figure out a way to verify the age of online purchasers. I don't know if it will save online vaping sales. But trying to present a solution rather than waiting for the inevitable to happen seems a more positive way forward for me.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lloydb

RichJB said:


> It is nevertheless something that society will need to look into as it's not just tobacco and vaping where online sales to minors is a problem. Increasingly, commerce is becoming online. And with the threat of mugging and crime, it makes sense for schoolkids to have debit cards rather than cash. So, at some point, society will need to figure out a way to verify the age of online purchasers. I don't know if it will save online vaping sales. But trying to present a solution rather than waiting for the inevitable to happen seems a more positive way forward for me.



So true!


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## Caveman

DangerDave said:


> But that shifts the responsibility... The banks have very strict rules for who they give cards to. They then hand that responsibility to the courier company, which would be controlled by an SLA of sort? So surely if every step of the transaction is geared towards making it impossible for minors to buy, i.e. Require a credit card, require age verification on delivery, etc. that should satisfy anyrehulatroy requirements?
> 
> Ultimately it comes down to a work around though. I'm going to chat to some people in the know... maybe we can come up with a workable solution, specifically for SA vape shops.


I don't think this has much to do with selling to minors. It's got to do with the classification. If vape stuff gets classified as Tobacco, it becomes illegal to sell online, regardless of payment method used.

Here is an excerpt from the
Tobacco Products Control Act, 1993 (Act No. 83 of 1993)


> 4. Prohibitions in respect of tobacco products
> 5. (a) No person shall sell, offer to sell, supply, distribute or buy any tobacco product through the postal services, the internet or any other electronic media.



if it was simply an issue of minors, its easy to get around, you just do what online foreign virtual currency exchanges do, they require you send them a photo of you and your ID document in the same frame. Then they can verify that you are over 18

So regardless of what MC/V has to say about it. If it gets classified as tobacco, we are screwed anyway regardless. In the meantime, there are other means of payment. EFT and BTC should be more than sufficient enough for most of us. It might delay the process a slight bit, but it's not gonna kill the business.


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## Lukeness

This is exactly why I have a problem with it. Payfast bends the rules for some and over reaches with others. Both cigars.co.za and cigarclub.co.za sell online and use their services. And they are most definitely tobacco products. Yet a device, which is most definitely not one, and ejuice, which is barely even related except for the nicotine content in some, are picked on because they are receiving more attention. Does Payfast even monitor what you are selling or are they just making their decisions based on your business name/description?


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## boxerulez

RichJB said:


> I suppose one of the complicating factors is that vendors here don't use their own delivery services but rather couriers. In the UK article, they mentioned that supermarket and alcohol outlets deliver via their own vans and the driver is obliged to satisfy him/herself that the receiving customer is over 18. That would probably be too big a burden for the courier companies here or they would be likely to add a surcharge if they were legally obliged to do it.


Ram does it for Vodacom and CellC all the time


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## RichJB

Caveman said:


> I don't think this has much to do with selling to minors. It's got to do with the classification.



Why would govt forbid the selling of cigarettes online or through the postal service, though? Govt must have a reason for passing a law. Why would they allow shops to sell cigarettes face to face, but not online? The only reason that makes sense to me is because face to face sales allow the merchant to gauge the age of the buyer, online sales don't. It's a loophole that allows minors to buy age-restricted products.

I think this is also why cigar shops were able to escape the regulation. Cigars are expensive and don't offer much bang for smoking buck. A kid who wants to smoke skelm is more likely to go to the corner cafe and buy smokes than go online and buy cigars. So it makes sense that govt would exempt cigars. Additionally, cigar smokers are few and most won't have specialist cigar shops nearby. Online and postal sales allow cigar smokers to get products they couldn't otherwise source as they have no nearby cigar shops. Nobody can claim they couldn't get cigarettes if they weren't sold online, you can go to your supermarket or bottle store and get them.

There might be another reason why cigarettes can't be sold online. But I can't think of one. Age verification seems the only plausible reason for me.


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## boxerulez

DangerDave said:


> But that shifts the responsibility... The banks have very strict rules for who they give cards to. They then hand that responsibility to the courier company, which would be controlled by an SLA of sort? So surely if every step of the transaction is geared towards making it impossible for minors to buy, i.e. Require a credit card, require age verification on delivery, etc. that should satisfy anyrehulatroy requirements?
> 
> Ultimately it comes down to a work around though. I'm going to chat to some people in the know... maybe we can come up with a workable solution, specifically for SA vape shops.



I can use my capitec savings card as a emulated credit card with payfast services, so I do understand that point it is still possible for minors to order online.


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## Strontium

incredible_hullk said:


> so I see 1 vendors account has already been suspended


Which one?


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## aktorsyl

incredible_hullk said:


> so I see 1 vendors account has already been suspended


Suspended or received notice? I believe 2 have received notice for suspension in June.


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## incredible_hullk

aktorsyl said:


> Suspended or received notice? I believe 2 have received notice for suspension in June.


The mail from the vendor said account already suspended


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## aktorsyl

incredible_hullk said:


> The mail from the vendor said account already suspended


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## Chukin'Vape

they can suck my D - even if I have to phone in my orders, pay EFT and wait for it to clear. I will still get my vape mail delivered.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strontium

Blckvapour is 2min from my house, hopefully they'll have an option of going there direct and paying.


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## RichJB

Well, there's a reason why Bull City Vapor changed to Bull City Flavors in the US...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Gizmo

I got a call we have 3 weeks left. I also contactet PayU they will also not support Vaping related products for credit card payments.

This is not looking good. EFT only looks like the way forward.


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## aktorsyl

Gizmo said:


> I got a call we have 3 weeks left. I also contactet PayU they will also not support Vaping related products for credit card payments.
> 
> This is not looking good. EFT only looks like the way forward.


Any option with VCS?


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## Stroodlepuff

We are still trying some other providers. 

We will let everyone know if we figure something out...

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Cespian

Soooo... 

Whats cookin' in the online land of vaping these days seeing as though yesterday was the day the lights went out?


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## Stroodlepuff

Paygate seems to be willing to help we are busy with the process. We are still receiving payfast payments though, they have not put us in the dark yet...

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB

This issue was being discussed in Discord yesterday as the US-based DIY site alltheflavors.com has had subscription payments cancelled by Stripe, an American payment processor. Stripe, like PayFast, is no longer processing any vaping-related payments. The explanation that was given to the ATF owner is that vaping payments are too high-risk. This apparently stems from the abnormally high number of chargebacks on vaping-related purchases.

This further confirms the need for regulation. In an unregulated environment, Chinese manufacturers are flooding markets with clones and other products where QC is not up to scratch. Customers aren't happy and a lot of transactions are cancelled and goods returned. Hence the unwillingness of payment processors to serve the industry. Having compulsory national and international standards, thus locking undesirable products out of the market at the entry point, would go a long way towards resolving disputes.


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## Rob Fisher

Oh wow... the wheels are off online purchases... I hope the vendors get something better than the EFT system... this is ridiculous and really unfair to vapers!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5


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## AndreH

So i have been doing a bit of research on the net on a replacement for payfast. What I have read is we can start using Bitcoin as a payment medium. Read more here on how can incorporate Bitcoin: https://www.bitcoin.com/


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## Caveman

AndreH said:


> So i have been doing a bit of research on the net on a replacement for payfast. What I have read is we can start using Bitcoin as a payment medium. Read more here on how can incorporate Bitcoin: https://www.bitcoin.com/


While bitcoin would work, you still need to buy it from an exchange first. That takes time, you can use the local exchange, but you need to verify first, and it's a process as well. I don't get the issue though, why not just use EFT? Instant of not, it's no hassles

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WARMACHINE

Paypal ?


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## Andre

Caveman said:


> While bitcoin would work, you still need to buy it from an exchange first. That takes time, you can use the local exchange, but you need to verify first, and it's a process as well. I don't get the issue though, why not just use EFT? Instant of not, it's no hassles
> 
> Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


My first Instant EFT was somewhat onerous and not instant at all. 

Payment did not go through my bank (Standard) instantly so, per Payfast's online instructions, I had to email a POP to them for manual processing. Did so and received an automated email in return telling me they would respond within 8 hours (normally much quicker they say). 8 hours later no response. Eventually got a response that my funds are now in their account and, if I did not almost immediately get an email to confirm completion of payment to the vendor, I should use the funds in my wallet to pay the vendor. Needless to say, no payment to the vendor email arrived.

I searched high and low on how to transfer funds from my Payfast wallet to the merchant, but to no avail. Seems to me this method no longer exists.

Eventually phoned them and they could almost instantly do the final transfer. Why they have not done so with the first funds available email is beyond me.

Very poor service.

A normal EFT will be less hassle.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## AndreH

WARMACHINE said:


> Paypal ?


Paypal also starting with their stuff...


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## AndreH

Caveman said:


> While bitcoin would work, you still need to buy it from an exchange first. That takes time, you can use the local exchange, but you need to verify first, and it's a process as well. I don't get the issue though, why not just use EFT? Instant of not, it's no hassles
> 
> Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


True what you say. For me its all about convenience and integration in your site to make it easier for the customer to purchase.


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## Caveman

AndreH said:


> True what you say. For me its all about convenience and integration in your site to make it easier for the customer to purchase.


Yeah for sure, it does make it easier for the customer to purchase, but it's also difficult for customers to get into

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WARMACHINE

Is this credit card or bank issue. How come we are able to purchase vaping goods for import via paypal and credit card ?


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## AlphaDog

So I'm stressing a bit. I paid for an order using the instant EFT option (I have all of the proof of payment details) and when I tried to complete my order, PayFast failed to connect to the ABSA bank service and couldn't "find" my payment. I triple checked that all the correct details were captured though, so it's not that. So now my order is unprocessed (items still in the cart) while I've already paid. I've emailed their support, as well as the vendor... Has this happened to anyone?

Waiting to hear from either PayFast/the vender...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## aktorsyl

AlphaDog said:


> So I'm stressing a bit. I paid for an order using the instant EFT option (I have all of the proof of payment details) and when I tried to complete my order, PayFast failed to connect to the ABSA bank service and couldn't "find" my payment. I triple checked that all the correct details were captured though, so it's not that. So now my order is unprocessed (items still in the cart) while I've already paid. I've emailed their support, as well as the vendor... Has this happened to anyone?
> 
> Waiting to hear from either PayFast/the vender...


Happened to me before, it offered to recheck. So I filled in my payment reference number and it did its thing, and came back with a success message. I've noticed that between doing the EFT and Payfast picking up the payment can take up to 5 minutes.


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## AlphaDog

aktorsyl said:


> Happened to me before, it offered to recheck. So I filled in my payment reference number and it did its thing, and came back with a success message. I've noticed that between doing the EFT and Payfast picking up the payment can take up to 5 minutes.


Yeah, I'm getting this error when I try that:
"Unable to find your payment with the default reference"

The reference I used was correct though...
#$%& man...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BumbleBee

This whole payment thing is a total pain in the sunshine generator, I'm also sitting with orders in mid air because payments have only gone halfway through, this just creates so much extra PT. But as PayFast has stated this is beyond their control and the banks don't seem to want to play with, this is especially evident around the end of the month.

On a side note, I had problems doing a payment last night on an unrelated website (trying to buy my kid some Lego) using PayU


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## BioHAZarD

AlphaDog said:


> Yeah, I'm getting this error when I try that:
> "Unable to find your payment with the default reference"
> 
> The reference I used was correct though...
> #$%& man...


Send all the details to the support email and then phone them. They will manually process the payment. Such a kak system


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## YeOldeOke

AlphaDog said:


> Yeah, I'm getting this error when I try that:
> "Unable to find your payment with the default reference"
> 
> The reference I used was correct though...
> #$%& man...



@AlphaDog Once in a blue moon there's a communication error between Payfast and the merchant system. Contact the merchant and ask them to check their account in Payfast whether the money is there but the PF/Merchant update failed. Failing that, ask the merchant to check with Payfast, they are quite good and quick to resolve issues.

It'll be sorted out I'm sure, don't stress.


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## AlphaDog

YeOldeOke said:


> @AlphaDog Once in a blue moon there's a communication error between Payfast and the merchant system. Contact the merchant and ask them to check their account in Payfast whether the money is there but the PF/Merchant update failed. Failing that, ask the merchant to check with Payfast, they are quite good and quick to resolve issues.
> 
> It'll be sorted out I'm sure, don't stress.


Hey, by merchant do you mean the vendor I purchased from?


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## YeOldeOke

AlphaDog said:


> Hey, by merchant do you mean the vendor I purchased from?


Yup


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## AlphaDog

OK... So I called PayFast now and they sorted it out manually for me. At the same time, the vendor's site got updated and my order is being processed.

Phew... LOL

Thanks all for the replies!

Reactions: Like 3


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## Mauritz

Hi Guys, 

Since we have just been hit with the same mails from payfast I thought i would check in to see if you have found alternatives ?

Regards,


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## Gonzilla

Really hope a solution gets worked out eventually. Made orders on three different Vape related websites yesterday all using the Payfast EFT option as CC was not a choice. One went through fine, another wouldn't let us put the order in until we contacted the company to get some references and the last required the long email chains and proof of payment sending that others have described. 

The missus was thoroughly triggered and was ready to give up halfway through. I'm not going anywhere and am willing to deal with all this nonsense but what about the people looking to get started or who are half committed to giving up cigarettes? Do they bang their head against a wall all day to get some new coils or just give up and go buy a packet of smokes at the corner cafe?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Stosta

How come I can still use Payfast / Credit Cards to buy e-juice and e-cigs on Takealot?

Don't get me wrong I don't want that stuff, but am I missing a link here?


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## BioHAZarD

Stosta said:


> How come I can still use Payfast / Credit Cards to buy e-juice and e-cigs on Takealot?
> 
> Don't get me wrong I don't want that stuff, but am I missing a link here?


I assume its because its not their main business/product? sort of gets lost in the mix

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RichJB

Stosta said:


> How come I can still use Payfast / Credit Cards to buy e-juice and e-cigs on Takealot?
> 
> Don't get me wrong I don't want that stuff, but am I missing a link here?



I guess because they are not a vaping vendor. Or, at least, a lot more than a vaping vendor. So vape returns and chargebacks, as an overall percentage of their business, would be a lot less than a dedicated vape vendor.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Stosta

RichJB said:


> I guess because they are not a vaping vendor. Or, at least, a lot more than a vaping vendor. So vape returns and chargebacks, as an overall percentage of their business, would be a lot less than a dedicated vape vendor.


To add to my confusion...

https://www.takealot.com/seller/vapeshop?sellers=786031

It's the Vape Shop selling _through _Takealot.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## BioHAZarD

Stosta said:


> To add to my confusion...
> 
> https://www.takealot.com/seller/vapeshop?sellers=786031
> 
> It's the Vape Shop selling _through _Takealot.


you solved the vendor problem  everybody just sells through takealot

Reactions: Funny 1


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## RichJB

Jusses, look at those prices. A grand for 5x30ml bottles of juice. Friends, revolution is the only way forward. Can you feel it?

Can you feel it?

Can you feel it?

*breaks into Michael Jackson dance.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Kuhlkatz

RichJB said:


> Jusses, look at those prices. A grand for 5x30ml bottles of juice. Friends, revolution is the only way forward. Can you feel it?
> 
> Can you feel it?
> 
> Can you feel it?
> 
> *breaks into Michael Jackson dance.



It's not a grand. It's only 999. BIG difference there if you know how peeps normally read prices, or if you are in marketing and you think you know how peeps normally read prices. I would have charged 999.95 for that. 

It is an imported joose range though, and I think the packaging might actually up the costs quite drastically, especially if packaged like the ones visible on the Mello Buddha site. It's $37.50 a pop, just over R 502, which means that you potentially get 3 x 30ml for FREE 
That is assuming that the big-ass bamboo look bottles also hold only 30ml, and not 50ml, or perhaps even just 10ml...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Glytch

Vendors could create product categories and fill them with thousands of non-vape-related products that are all out of stock. That way vape-related products won't be their main source of business 

#lateralthinking

Reactions: Creative 1


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## JakesSA

Just for interest sake, the credit card issue is not a legal issue from the South African perspective at all, or not yet anyway, although Payfast seems to prefer to pose it as such. This comes down to Visa/Mastercard having rated the vaping industry as a "high risk sector". This may be either because of the amount of charge backs received (says the cynic in me) or the risk of sales of vaping goods to minors which in many parts of the world would now be illegal (as it always should have been). Body building stimulants etc. also fall in this category. 

I know this because we applied for merchant accounts with 3 of the big banks in South Africa, and whilst the standard merchant "swipe your card" account posed no problem, all of them had the internet payment use of same merchant account declined by Visa/Mastercard who vet all merchant accounts to be used on the internet .. apparently.

There are overseas payment gateways who specialise in high risk transaction processing (and probably hide the source of the transaction from Visa/Mastercard), but they have very high transaction fees and no such institution exists in South Africa as far as I know. 

Paypal could probably be used but once again the transaction fees are quite high.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## L30T3K

Why not try Paypal.
I've already bought some vape gear locally and paid with my Paypal account, it's much easier to use and it would make the transaction process more secure(the customer doesn't have to use their card details on too many sites) and potentially easier.
Note: I'm just a consumer, not a shop owner...just offering some insight


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## Zeki Hilmi

I'm using VCS and it's working perfectly after payfast stopped my account. No problem at all. 


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## JakesSA

What bank are you with Zeki?


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## Zeki Hilmi

JakesSA said:


> What bank are you with Zeki?


FNB @JakesSA


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## Raindance

Guys, I love buying online but with PayFast now forcing us to use the instant eft option, payment has become a pain in the butt. Not only the elaborate process but also because these systems never seem to sync up and verify payments without the need to submit verification requests and causing delays.

I know there are benefits for the vendor in terms of connecting orders to payments and so forth but I would rather just do an ordinary EFT and have the bank email confirmation directly to the vendor. 

Ok, I know it is what it is, I just needed to vent...

Thanks for listening.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## Rob Fisher

My last 4 transactions with the new system at different vendors has gone pretty smoothly... sometimes you have to ask the system to re-search and then it finds it a second time... I bank with FNB... yes having to fire up a second browser window and use your banking app is a pain but it does work for me anyway.

PS PayPal is way better!

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## aktorsyl

Rob Fisher said:


> My last 4 transactions with the new system at different vendors has gone pretty smoothly... sometimes you have to ask the system to re-search and then it finds it a second time... I bank with FNB... yes having to fire up a second browser window and use your banking app is a pain but it does work for me anyway.
> 
> PS PayPal is way better!


Also zero issues for me - but I also bank with FNB.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NielJoubert

It's a shame I can't earn eBucks on all the Vape related purchases anymore 


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Reactions: Agree 2 | Creative 1


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