# Nicotine Salts vs Freebase



## craigb (25/10/17)

Seeing at least 2 vendors offering some variety in the type of Nicotine is awesome...

Having done a bit of research (minimal amount of research) it seems there is a difference in how we absorb the nic in it's various forms.

Freebase seems to be slower to absorb, but longer lasting, with a definite throat hit, while the salt seems to hit faster, but to be less long lasting and much smoother.

Would there be any point to experimenting with using both in a single juice. The quicker intake of the salts matched with the longer lasting of the freebase? Using both to balance higher nic ratio with a lesser but still noticeable throat hit?

[USERGROUP=3]@Admins[/USERGROUP] , would another area of the forum be more appropriate for the vendors in question to provide their opinion and/or knowledge (please feel free to move if appropriate)

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## Stosta (25/10/17)

craigb said:


> Seeing at least 2 vendors offering some variety in the type of Nicotine is awesome...
> 
> Having done a bit of research (minimal amount of research) it seems there is a difference in how we absorb the nic in it's various forms.
> 
> ...


I was thinking it would be nice to have a single thread discussing this seeing as we do have two separate ones at the moment!

Lets leave this one in here, and guys just remember that if you're needing a response from the vendors, to ask them in their own sub-forums as they won't be able to respond here (heads up to @Richio and @DizZa ).

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## craigb (25/10/17)

Stosta said:


> I was thinking it would be nice to have a single thread discussing this seeing as we do have two separate ones at the moment!
> 
> Lets leave this one in here, and guys just remember that if you're needing a response from the vendors, to ask them in their own sub-forums as they won't be able to respond here (heads up to @Richio and @DizZa ).


@Eisenhorn wants to know the best way to store Nic salts too.

Is my understanding correct that the vendors can comment, but just not push their own product and services?

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## craigb (25/10/17)

and to answer @Eisenhorn , from what I've read, salts (whether in PG or VG) are more stable than freebase and degrade slower. So in theory, you could keep them in the back of the cupboard, but if you already store in the fridge/freezer, may as well carry on as you were.

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## Rude Rudi (25/10/17)

craigb said:


> Would there be any point to experimenting with using both in a single juice. The quicker intake of the salts matched with the longer lasting of the freebase? Using both to balance higher nic ratio with a lesser but still noticeable throat hit?
> 
> [USERGROUP=3]@Admins[/USERGROUP] , would another area of the forum be more appropriate for the vendors in question to provide their opinion and/or knowledge (please feel free to move if appropriate)



As far as I understand, NO. Quoting form this source: " _In short, adding free base nicotine to its salt form isn't going to give a revelatory "best of both worlds" situation_."

He goes on to explain the science in the thread - far too complicated to explain here...

Would have been nice though...

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## craigb (25/10/17)

Rude Rudi said:


> As far as I understand, NO. Quoting form this source: " _In short, adding free base nicotine to its salt form isn't going to give a revelatory "best of both worlds" situation_."
> 
> He goes on to explain the science in the thread - far too complicated to explain here...
> 
> Would have been nice though...



Conjugate acid <nods head>
equilibrium dynamics <uhuh>

So, that's a no then? <chemical engineer checks himself into rehab>

The short answer that I think I understood is that mixing the 2 causes a change in the chemical equilibrium that makes it effectively a different strength of one or the other (which one, I couldn't quite understand)

Thanks @Rude Rudi , asked and answered.

Good thing @Stosta already appropriated the thread for broader discussion.

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## Eisenhorn (25/10/17)

craigb said:


> Conjugate acid <nods head>
> equilibrium dynamics <uhuh>
> 
> So, that's a no then? <chemical engineer checks himself into rehab>
> ...


Thanks @craigb for the info...
The tearm "Salt" irrationally conjured images of the Nic crystallising like menthol in the fridge.
Shudder

"Dats would be'z Dildos" 

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## Silver (25/10/17)

craigb said:


> @Eisenhorn wants to know the best way to store Nic salts too.
> 
> Is my understanding correct that the vendors can comment, but just not push their own product and services?



Hi @craigb 
Vendors can't discuss their products in the general threads of the forum. 
So if you want vendors to participate, let us know and we can move this to the "Who has stock" subforum.

Great questions you are asking here by the way!

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## kimbo (25/10/17)

Silver said:


> Hi @craigb
> Vendors can't discuss their products in the general threads of the forum.
> So if you want vendors to participate, let us know and we can move this to the "Who has stock" subforum.
> 
> Great questions you are asking here by the way!


@Silver if i may answer

I read that you also just keep it in the fridge as your normal nic, the good thing is it does not oxidate as easy

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## Eisenhorn (28/10/17)

First impressions of Nic Salts:
Winner Winner chicken dinner!!!

Finally got around to some mixing tonight and to play around with Nic Salts (the 60mg variety) 
First thing I did was make a 4mg 70/30 plain base to get a unbiased real taste. Painted some on my RDA and took a toot... Man oh man! 
To quote a controversial youtube reviewer "SMOOTH as an adult entertainers posterior!!!"
Zero taste, zero harshness, no discernable throat hit and an immediate nicotine rush. That good old instant gratifying tingly hit like you got from lighting up a stinky in a quiet moment after some mad rush...
I am sold on this stuff

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## Silver (28/10/17)

I havent tried nic salts properly

I had a few toots on the Gusto Mini when I visited Vapers Corner a few weeks back.
I did notice the throat hit was very light

So, for those that have tried it - is the attraction that you get the nic loading without throat hit/harshness while you vape?

I realise I am in the minority but what if I actually like throat hit?

So this isnt for me really? Am I right?

I still want to try it properly though

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## bjorncoetsee (28/10/17)

Silver said:


> I havent tried nic salts properly
> 
> I had a few toots on the Gusto Mini when I visited Vapers Corner a few weeks back.
> I did notice the throat hit was very light
> ...


I also tried the nic salts. Absolutely no throat hit. I also dont get a buzz. I usually vape 4.5mg in a dripper. And 12mg in mtl tanks. I mixed at 6mg nic salts, tried in on the dripper. Got no throat hit which im after. And also no buzz, just felt nauseous on my stomach for a minute or 2.
I mixed at 13mg for my mtl tank, also no throat hit or a buzz.
I think i crave the throat hit more than the nicotine. Will keep on testing it, but so far im choosing freebase nic, just for the throat hit

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## zandernwn (28/10/17)

craigb said:


> Seeing at least 2 vendors offering some variety in the type of Nicotine is awesome...
> 
> Having done a bit of research (minimal amount of research) it seems there is a difference in how we absorb the nic in it's various forms.
> 
> ...


Please dont. nic salts are not suited for sub ohm. 

One of the compounds used to create salt nics are benzoate acid.. Uses at low tempratures this is fine but at sub ohm levels can release benzine and that would not be good for you. Other acids used may also break down into harmfull side effects at heats exceeding 200c.

Also salt nics absorb beter under low tempratures.... You will almost be defeating the purpose of salt nic at high temps.. Then free base remains more effective

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## zandernwn (28/10/17)

craigb said:


> @Eisenhorn wants to know the best way to store Nic salts too.
> 
> Is my understanding correct that the vendors can comment, but just not push their own product and services?


Storing is the same as freebase, but nic salts preserve much better than free base

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## zandernwn (28/10/17)

I trust its ok for me to give this info.. We dont sell or produce nic salts.. Just wanted to answer the questions with regards to using combinations of free base and salt nic... Specifically in a sub ohm setting.... It is not advisable and may lead to ill effects. 

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## Sash (29/10/17)

Silver said:


> I havent tried nic salts properly
> 
> I had a few toots on the Gusto Mini when I visited Vapers Corner a few weeks back.
> I did notice the throat hit was very light
> ...



Sometimes I also look for that throat hit. So I am with you there.

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## craigb (29/10/17)

zandernwn said:


> One of the compounds used to create salt nics are benzoate acid.. Uses at low tempratures this is fine but at sub ohm levels can release benzine and that would not be good for you. Other acids used may also break down into harmfull side effects at heats exceeding 200c


I picked up on this during my own looking around and now that you mentioned it, it has left my mind. As cool as the nic salts sound, I think I'm going to hold off for a bit until some more stringent (and research backed) guidelines come to the fore. 

Having said that, I think there will definitely be room for the salts in my vape routine, just want much more clarity on their safe usage parameters.

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## zandernwn (29/10/17)

The studies show it safe at low vw.. There is no issue with it. You just cant use nic salts in a 3mgml high vw setting.. If used in a mtl as reasonable temps then there is no issue. 

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## zandernwn (29/10/17)

Much like the formeldehyde debackle. Use it for its intended purpose and its an awesome nic to use.. I am getting mine today cant wait to play with it again! 

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## gavin (5/11/17)

zandernwn said:


> One of the compounds used to create salt nics are benzoate acid.. Uses at low tempratures this is fine but at sub ohm levels can release benzine


Hi, do you have a reference for this?

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## stevie g (5/11/17)

Benzoic acid. 

Been sub ohming 12mg nice salts. Tbh I prefer 3mg freebase nicotine.

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## kimbo (5/11/17)

Silver said:


> I havent tried nic salts properly
> 
> I had a few toots on the Gusto Mini when I visited Vapers Corner a few weeks back.
> I did notice the throat hit was very light
> ...


@Silver i tried it on 18mg, i am not sure if is just me but i get this weird irritating feeling in my throat, i am not sure if the nic salts i must still get use to, on the positive you get that nic rush, the juice is more tasty, no pepper taste to take away the flavor. very little to non throat hit

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## Silver (5/11/17)

Thanks @kimbo 

I need to try these Nic salts out properly.

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## Eisenhorn (5/11/17)

kimbo said:


> @Silver i tried it on 18mg, i am not sure if is just me but i get this weird irritating feeling in my throat, i am not sure if the nic salts i must still get use to, on the positive you get that nic rush, the juice is more tasty, no pepper taste to take away the flavor. very little to non throat hit


Not just you with the throat irritation, have found the same issue with Nic Salts. (would choke and cough wildly when trying to use Nic Salts in a standard sub-ohm RTA, even at low watts) Converted one of my unused 22mm bottom airflow RDAs into an above ohm MTL setup (2x 1.4ohm coils). Since switching to that setup I no longer have the irritation issue.

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## kimbo (5/11/17)

Eisenhorn said:


> Not just you with the throat irritation, have found the same issue with Nic Salts. (would choke and cough wildly when trying to use Nic Salts in a standard sub-ohm RTA, even at low watts) Converted one of my unused 22mm bottom airflow RDAs into an above ohm MTL setup (2x 1.4ohm coils). Since switching to that setup I no longer have the irritation issue.
> 
> Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk


I have it my BB at 18watt 0.7 coil

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## zandernwn (6/11/17)

Not on hand.. I have done extensive reading and I validated this with a number of sources.. Ill try get my hands on the sources and post them here

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## zandernwn (6/11/17)

If you use salt nics at 1+ohms and under 15w. It is perfectly safe and then it works as intended.. Any higher and you lose the benefit of salt nics and then start running the risk of bad chem reactions. 

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## zandernwn (6/11/17)

kimbo said:


> I have it my BB at 18watt 0.7 coil


This should still be fine altough I suspect. The nic will have quite a kick with that seup .

The sweet spot for me is a 1.2ohm kangertech occ coil in the billet running at around 15w.

I have comfortably taken my salt nic as high as 50mgml.

It has a beautiful hit and hand full of drags and the cravings are gone! 

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## kimbo (6/11/17)

I will recoil it later today and see what goes, I must admit yea it has very nice kick

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## zandernwn (6/11/17)

gavin said:


> Hi, do you have a reference for this?


I found this in my browsing history, validating the safety of salt nics at the recommended VW.

Ill have to dig a bit deeper or the rest.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0173055
http://ecigarette-research.org/research/index.php/whats-new/2017/252-benz

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## gavin (6/11/17)

zandernwn said:


> I found this in my browsing history, validating the safety of salt nics at the recommended VW.
> 
> Ill have to dig a bit deeper or the rest.
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0173055
> http://ecigarette-research.org/research/index.php/whats-new/2017/252-benz


Thanks, I have seen those articles, which are quite reassuring. I was looking at making my own nicotine salts and I found references to sodium benzoate been used instead of citric acid as it could be used at higher temperatures, I think it is somewhere in the Juul patent. Now I've found that 60mg salts here in SA I'm getting some to try, I'll use low resistance but with temperature control.

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## wikus (6/11/17)

zandernwn said:


> If you use salt nics at 1+ohms and under 15w. It is perfectly safe and then it works as intended.. Any higher and you lose the benefit of salt nics and then start running the risk of bad chem reactions.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


The gusto mini runs at 17w on a 1.5ohm coil, makes sense now as to why the salts are so effective in the gusto pods. Will be using the nic salts only on higher builds than.

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## gavin (6/11/17)

Just got my salts, good service from Blck Vapor, ordered on the weekend. The liquid is very different from normal nic and pg, a bit of a sour taste. I mixed up 3mls of the 60mg base with 7 mls of vg, no flavouring. Put it in a tank and vaped at 180 degrees Celsius. It's real smooth, and I get a hit off it, I think 18mg is too much for me, but hopefully it will get the wife off cigarettes.

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## zandernwn (6/11/17)

gavin said:


> Thanks, I have seen those articles, which are quite reassuring. I was looking at making my own nicotine salts and I found references to sodium benzoate been used instead of citric acid as it could be used at higher temperatures, I think it is somewhere in the Juul patent. Now I've found that 60mg salts here in SA I'm getting some to try, I'll use low resistance but with temperature control.


Dont even bother with the Juul patent.. Is lots of gibberish. 

Try reddit or some of the australian forums.. Its been some tine since i read up about it but they have quite a few resources that explains the process. 

It seems relatively simple..but to do it proper you need to balance the PH and use a combination of acids to achieve a proper result. 

But there are guy who claim to have good results and they have shared recipes.. So maybe try there

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## Hooked (1/1/18)

This is an interesting video to watch - and an outstanding presenter. No showing off by blowing clouds at the beginning of the video; no bells and whistles. He gets down to business straight away and speaks slowly and clearly.

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## Carnival (1/1/18)

Informative video, thanks @Hooked. 

Right now I don’t feel the need to try nic salts, but I still like to learn as much as I can so I’ll be following this thread.

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## Hooked (1/1/18)

Carnival said:


> Informative video, thanks @Hooked.
> 
> Right now I don’t feel the need to try nic salts, but I still like to learn as much as I can so I’ll be following this thread.



@Carnival I use the nicotine salts pods in the Aspire Gusto Mini and I'm very happy with them.

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