# This is very very Alarming! I smoke alot of these liquids and I am very scarred after this article



## pimcowboy (20/10/14)

https://soundcloud.com/vp-live/suicide-bunny-e-liquids-test-positive

This is quite unnerving to listen to... 

Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl, the chemicals that cause popcorn lung when inhaled, were found in Suicide Bunny liquids (Sucker Punch and Mother's Milk) after some independent lab tests were performed on the liquids. 

The shocking part is that Suicide Bunny released a statement that claimed their liquids were Diacetyl / Acetyl Propinyl free. 

WE AS A COMMUNITY SHOULD DEMAND THAT ALL ELIQUID BRANDS THAT STATE THEY ARE Diacetyl and Acetyl PropionyL FREE! IM ACTUALLY PROPER ANGRY AS IT IS A GREAT JUICE THAT I HAVE BROUGHT AND VAPED ALLOT OF! HOW CAN THEY BE ALLOWED TO DECEIVE CUSTOMERS LIKE THIS ESPECIALLY COMING FROM THE STATES! THESE COMPANIES IF INTENTIONALLY DECEIVING US SHOULD BE CLOSED DOWN IMMEDIATELY!

I would love to know what every1 thinks about this as I am really angry right now!!!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Useful 2


----------



## johan (20/10/14)

I think the name "Suicide Bunny" says it all  - for 39+ years I didn't care what I was inhaling with stinkies, why should I worry now?

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 4 | Winner 1 | Funny 4


----------



## annemarievdh (20/10/14)

This is sad sad news. But needs more digging in to. We need to go have a look at those studies and see firstly if they are legit. And then take it from there 


Vaping with Thor the Reo Mini

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


----------



## Danny (20/10/14)

It is rather alarming but don't overreact. suicide bunny have responded to this with their own testing and have posted it up on facebook:https://www.facebook.com/TheSuicideBunny/posts/317933675035148

Its a case of whose word to take. In a booming industry there will always be the potential for people to attempt to carve a way into the market via misinformation. I would sit tight, give it a few days and see, eventually the truth will out!

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## johan (20/10/14)

Now that is just playing into the hands of the anti-vaping campaigners, especially on e-liquid: DIVIDE & CONQUER THEM WITH THEIR OWN WEAPONRY

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## annemarievdh (20/10/14)

Danny said:


> It is rather alarming but don't overreact. suicide bunny have responded to this with their own testing and have posted it up on facebook:https://www.facebook.com/TheSuicideBunny/posts/317933675035148
> 
> Its a case of whose word to take. In a booming industry there will always be the potential for people to attempt to carve a way into the market via misinformation. I would sit tight, give it a few days and see, eventually the truth will out!



That is exactly why I say need more investigation 


Vaping with Thor the Reo Mini

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## BumbleBee (20/10/14)

Here are some Lab results....

http://www.ecigssa.co.za/threads/th...ny-kings-crown-thread.4662/page-4#post-125356


----------



## Vaping Jay (20/10/14)

I do feel that the consumer must be informed about what they are putting in their bodies, along with the dangers that it involves. From there it is your own problem. I actually received a list of ingredients that cigarettes contained when I was still smoking (I still have it) and it bothered me for a full ten minutes. With the history of cancer in my family, I was a little worried, but only thought something of it when my sister died almost three years ago from Cancer. That's only when I looked at that list again. To be honest, it scared me! Now I'm stuck with a world of 'what-ifs' and nothing to do about it...

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Danny (20/10/14)

Found these results buried in the comments about the diacetyl results:

http://thesuicidebunny.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/SB-AP-Results.pdf

AP found in significant levels in all but one I think.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## GerharddP (20/10/14)

Checked the msds of diacytil and it decomposes at 80-89c into carbon monoxide,dioxide and nitrogen oxides all of which are easily dealt with by the human body in small amounts, question is what is the temp at the point of vapor production in an ecig?

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Sir Vape (20/10/14)

Guys

To be really honest. I think to find any juice without a chemical in of some kind is almost impossible. On ordering our first line of juice I must have contacted almost every company out there and all them were pretty honest about what was in their juice. Most of them had one or two of those components and or alcohol. Some were free of Diacetyl / Acetyl Propinyl but had alcohol. Some were reluctant to say and I was pretty hard on them after speaking to our guy at Rocket who basically said if they say theirs are 100% free ask them for a certificate to state it. Rocket stated that their was Diacetyl / Acetyl Propinyl free but ingredients could contain alcohol and with that they provided me with relevant proof that this was the case. Those that said theirs were free I have not heard back from and some point blank refused which make you wonder.

I'm not saying that there isn't any that are not 100% free but that's what I have heard from a major brand label and also from my investigation into it. I'm fussy when it comes to what I vape. Alcohol for personal reasons bothers me but i steep mine before I vape it as this aids in the evaporation process. I try and steer clear of Diacetyl / Acetyl Propinyl vapes but I do know that the qty is so minimal its not going to harm you and even under lab tests would be difficult to pick up and you would be pretty much limited to what you could vape lol. I vape Bunny 

But I think it's important to know and have those options as its your right to know. Ask your vendor and or even better mail the manufacturer to set your mind at ease. I have done that with all the juices I have vaped and 95% have all three or at least one of the ingredients in. I think with time the mixing process will advance and get better but you cant compare the toxins in cigarettes to what we vape now. I also think the Bunny saga was blown out of proportions and sounds like a little propaganda stint maybe from a disgruntled customer or opposition company.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 2


----------



## Danny (20/10/14)

I suppose it is also needed to point out that the jury is still out on the link between popcorn lung and diacetyl. Its more a political and social story than one of science :
http://www.ungersconsulting.com/Diacetyl_Regulations_2011.pdf

Personally I vape a few juices that I know contain the 'dodgy' chemicals and one of them I consumed in much higher concentrations (diacetyl in stinkies) and with a much greater frequency, still no popcorn lung. I am in no way saying there is no merit to the concerns and warnings. Im just saying they may be more precautionary than cautionary if that makes any sense at all. I still fully intend on consuming those juices I have and to trying out suicide bunny if they survive the flaming theyre going to get from this.

Another point to remember is people have been vaping for quite some time now, many juices before the concerns about the 'deadly diacetyl' were even recognised were made using quite a bit of diacetyl, still no vapers with popcorn lung. The most concerning health consequence I have encountered relating to vaping is the story of lipoid pneumonia I can only assume as a result of vaping large amounts of cheap oil based liquid.

As a life choice and guide I have chosen to live by this statement: Longterm exposure to high concentrations of anything is a bad thing and practically everything is fine in moderation.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2 | Winner 2


----------



## ET (20/10/14)

yeah i also believe this whole diacetyl thing has been blown out of context. didnt a recent study find way more of the stuff in normal cigs and that's never given someone popcorn lung.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## GerharddP (20/10/14)

ET said:


> yeah i also believe this whole diacetyl thing has been blown out of context. didnt a recent study find way more of the stuff in normal cigs and that's never given someone popcorn lung.


Thats what im saying. At the temps inside your average coil it decomposes and you never have the pure substance even get close to your lungs

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Alex (20/10/14)

This is blown way out of proportion, have a look at the people making the flavorings that go into every item in your supermarket.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


----------



## zadiac (20/10/14)

Anyone know of a local lab we can use to test these things? I'm in the process of perfecting my juice recipes and will at some point start to sell them, but I want to make sure from my side that the ingredients that I use are safe. Not just for my clients, but also for myself.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## gman211991 (20/10/14)

Did you here of that chemical dihydrogen monoxide apparently its extremely leathal in a solid form and undetectable in liquid form but as gas it can cause bad burns.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 3


----------



## gman211991 (20/10/14)

Apparently its present in most eliquids.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


----------



## GerharddP (20/10/14)

gman211991 said:


> Did you here of that chemical dihydrogen monoxide apparently its extremely leathal in a solid form and undetectable in liquid form but as gas it can cause bad burns.


Dihydrogen dioxide will cause severe effects in any form

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## gman211991 (20/10/14)

Well as a food scientist i refer to it as h2o or water... So keep vaping ignore the silly ppl

Reactions: Like 6


----------



## Andre (20/10/14)

gman211991 said:


> Well as a food scientist i refer to it as h2o or water... So keep vaping ignore the silly ppl


Actually, you made a good point. If people do not really know what they are talking about, you get misplaced fears.

_The dihydrogen monoxide hoax involves calling water by the unfamiliar chemical name "dihydrogen monoxide" (DHMO), and listing some of water's effects in an alarming manner, such as the fact that it accelerates corrosion and can cause severe burns. The hoax often calls for dihydrogen monoxide to be regulated, labeled as hazardous, or banned. *It illustrates how the lack of scientific literacy and an exaggerated analysis can lead to misplaced fears.*_

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 4 | Informative 1


----------



## gman211991 (20/10/14)

Exactly my point good sir. I have a chemical and biochemical background of something odd comes up I'll look into it

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## zadiac (20/10/14)

Good thread this. Very informative. Thanks to all who contribute.


----------



## Alex (20/10/14)

I found this very amusing

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 4


----------



## GerharddP (20/10/14)

I can with almost 100% confiction say that an open window while in traffic is way more deadly in the long run than anything any vaper with common sense will ever use. I have more fear for the locked up energy in a lithium cell than the chems in my juice. Ignorence kills more than vaping ever will.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 5 | Winner 1


----------



## BumbleBee (20/10/14)

This whole Diacetyl subject irritates me to no end, it's been discussed in detail many times on this forum and usually results in the flinging of poo. The only thing that irks me more than this subject is the word "gateway"!

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


----------



## GerharddP (20/10/14)

BumbleBee said:


> This whole Diacetyl subject irritates me to no end, it's been discussed in detail many times on this forum and usually results in the flinging of poo. The only thing that irks me more than this subject is the word "gateway"!



Or subnet mask..sorry the geek had to break free

Reactions: Funny 4


----------



## Vaping Jay (20/10/14)

Let's be honest here. Name five products, drinks, produce or whatever, that isn't bad for you. In today's life you can't even trust the crap you grow yourself because it is hormone treated with a world of bad. Most people drink Coke or Pepsi, the crap that does to your body is of nightmares! Even some bottled water is so chemically treated that it's not even water anymore!
I have read through the comments and I have to agree with most of you. On some level I also have to disagree. Sure, we want to know what we put in our bodies, but even if we do we don't care. I like coke, and it makes an excellent toilet cleaner. Even my delicious 'organic' hormone treated apples! I know it's bad for me, yet I eat/drink/use it anyway.
Sure, it will result in negative publicity, and for that fact alone people should try to avoid adding it to their liquids, but there will always be someone who just doesn't care. It's about the money in the end. People have killed for a lot less...

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## free3dom (20/10/14)

BumbleBee said:


> This whole Diacetyl subject irritates me to no end, it's been discussed in detail many times on this forum and usually results in the flinging of poo. The only thing that irks me more than this subject is the word "gateway"!



I heard that *vaping *is a *gateway *to *Diacetyl *abuse

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 4 | Thanks 1 | Can relate 1


----------



## GadgetFreak (21/10/14)

It just depends on who is doing the study. Think of it, Suicide Bunny Range is popular all over the world. Perhaps someone wants to derail (no pun intended) them?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


----------



## Yusuf Cape Vaper (21/10/14)

I would listen to gman92, not only because he is my (biological) brother, but also because he has his honors in food science and studies the chemical composition of everything he consumes. Like literally. We would be sitting at the dinner table, and he would make note that the meat we are eating is (throw in scientific term) enhanced. Same goes to vaping. We chill and Vape in my room, and he makes note of everything he vapes and the chemical composition of the eliquid has always been his muse. It's good to have some background knowledge on what you Vape, but the chances that most of us will blow the the scientific roof out of its proportional head are very high. We hear terms that sound alarming and scary, but we breathe in polluted air that is (at times) more hazardous than what we Vape. This is, of course, the plan of anti-vaping companies to stir doubt in our hearts and bring about a negative effect in our vaping habits. Sure, vaping isn't healthy, but it is healthier than smoking. So. Basically. VAPE ON

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1


----------



## Derick (21/10/14)

gman211991 said:


> Exactly my point good sir. I have a chemical and biochemical background of something odd comes up I'll look into it


When you have a chance, read up on the whole Diacetyl problem - not vaping related, but the original "study" the CDC did when Diacetyl factory workers first started getting sick. It makes for some interesting reading.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## GerharddP (21/10/14)

Derick said:


> When you have a chance, read up on the whole Diacetyl problem - not vaping related, but the original "study" the CDC did when Diacetyl factory workers first started getting sick. It makes for some interesting reading.



But that's the whole point here. those factory workers where exposed day in and day out to alarming concentrations of the chemical. in large amounts even water will kill you by dissolving the electrolytes in your blood and increasing your BP to the point where your brain swells. lets all get real here and realize that the concentrations of Diacetyl is to low for the average guy that nothing is going to happen. Maybe in after a few years yes but then we can also conclude that prolonged exposure to exhaust fumes will do the same irreversible damage to a human..so was it his juice or his trip to work on the N1 past revonia that did the damage.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Derick (21/10/14)

GerharddP said:


> But that's the whole point here. those factory workers where exposed day in and day out to alarming concentrations of the chemical. in large amounts even water will kill you by dissolving the electrolytes in your blood and increasing your BP to the point where your brain swells. lets all get real here and realize that the concentrations of Diacetyl is to low for the average guy that nothing is going to happen. Maybe in after a few years yes but then we can also conclude that prolonged exposure to exhaust fumes will do the same irreversible damage to a human..so was it his juice or his trip to work on the N1 past revonia that did the damage.


Well yes, was not arguing your point  , was actually in my roundabout way trying to point out that the CDC did a really half-assed study and in the end just told the factory workers to wear protection as it is probably harmful.

No actual studies on the effects of inhaling Diacetyl has ever been done

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## gman211991 (21/10/14)

I was just about to say they are making the exception the rule. Firstly how many ppm diacetyl is present in the liquid secondly what concentration is left once vaporized and inhaled. Thirdly how much could we possibly vape to mimick the conditions of working in the popcorn factory? Remember in a factory air quality is bad not much fresh air thus they were inhaling a constant. Diacetyl/air mixture with very little fresh air with years of exposure I'm sure it'll be detrimental but not in this application. Hell I worked in a lab at a certain spice manufacturer and after 3 weeka had bronchitis... Turns out i managed to inhale a helluva lot of spices that was in the air due to no face masks that should've been worn... But i digress to get back to the point its not dangerous in this application.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## rogue zombie (21/10/14)

Diacetyl apparently occurs naturally in alcoholic beverages, so I was in trouble a long time ago

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## GerharddP (21/10/14)

Derick said:


> Well yes, was not arguing your point  , was actually in my roundabout way trying to point out that the CDC did a really half-assed study and in the end just told the factory workers to wear protection as it is probably harmful.
> 
> No actual studies on the effects of inhaling Diacetyl has ever been done



Sorry mate, didn't mean to sound like I'm running you down. Just that i have worked with and in some extremely dangerous situations and I only needed my common sense and a bit of respect to have survived, I just feel that when all is said and done the guys doing the studies have more than likely never worked with what they are advising against. That irritates me so much because they install fear as a method of control and as i said ignorance kills very effectively. Sorry again if it seemed like i was gunning at you

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Derick (21/10/14)

No worries, I think my statement was rather ambiguous 

Been a point I have tried to make many times in this forum whenever this pops up (it's like the 4th time already).

Diacetyl also occurs naturally in many products we use every day. So if you are going to freak out about Diacetyl in your e-liquid, then I assume you are going to also stop using butter, popcorn, wine, beer, some oils, vinegar, coffee, salad dressing, syrup, icing, processed cheese and quite a few others. 

Chefs bake with butter and therefore inhale tons of Diacetyl every day, and I have yet to hear about Chefs dying of popcorn lung.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Derick (21/10/14)

"Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison" - Paracelsus (1493-1541), the father of toxicology

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## GerharddP (21/10/14)

Derick said:


> No worries, I think my statement was rather ambiguous
> 
> Been a point I have tried to make many times in this forum whenever this pops up (it's like the 4th time already).
> 
> ...



 Well said there..that's exactly what i meant about ignorance. People are like sheep unfortunately and as soon as a "scientific" study says something it must be real, without even thinking of the Chefs that just baked the butter cream cookies that they enjoy so much.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Marzuq (21/10/14)

i think at the end of the day the facts are simple.. if you advertise your product in a certain light. make sure it complies. a simple fix would be for suicide bunny to have and outside company do the tests and submit. just to clear their name. secondly, we should be alot smarter than that as a vaping community. we know how many people out there are trying to shine that negative light on us. whether it be true or false, the public will still see and hear about the negative effects. and they wont bother looking into it any further than just the initial statement.

when we go off on a rant and make a scene we only play into the anti vaping idiots hands.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## KieranD (21/10/14)

Marzuq said:


> i think at the end of the day the facts are simple.. if you advertise your product in a certain light. make sure it complies. a simple fix would be for suicide bunny to have and outside company do the tests and submit. just to clear their name. secondly, we should be alot smarter than that as a vaping community. we know how many people out there are trying to shine that negative light on us. whether it be true or false, the public will still see and hear about the negative effects. and they wont bother looking into it any further than just the initial statement.
> 
> when we go off on a rant and make a scene we only play into the anti vaping idiots hands.



Here are the results of those very tests: 
http://www.ecigssa.co.za/threads/th...ny-kings-crown-thread.4662/page-4#post-125356

Suicide Bunny/King's Crown had their product tested INDEPENDENTLY after this scandal broke out. The tests resulted in the concentrations being so low that they were ruled as Diacetyl Free. All tested liquids returned results of less than 5 particles per million. 

Much fuss about nothing. 

As a previous non-smoker (i smoked hubbly like a machine though), I was weary about what I vaped. It was only after serious consideration that we settled on Suicide Bunny and Kings Crown. We are going through the same testing and so on with our next international juice line that should launch very soon! After the original Vape Cartel problem we had with the VC Juice, we have been more committed than ever to bring only the BEST and SAFEST liquids to South Africa. Keep on vaping!!! VAPESTRONG!!!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Derick (21/10/14)

Marzuq said:


> i think at the end of the day the facts are simple.. if you advertise your product in a certain light. make sure it complies. a simple fix would be for suicide bunny to have and outside company do the tests and submit. just to clear their name. secondly, we should be alot smarter than that as a vaping community. we know how many people out there are trying to shine that negative light on us. whether it be true or false, the public will still see and hear about the negative effects. and they wont bother looking into it any further than just the initial statement.
> 
> when we go off on a rant and make a scene we only play into the anti vaping idiots hands.


The thing is when suicide bunny was first accused of having Diacetyl, they did submit their products to testing and found none - but as witch hunts go, their tests were immediately "discredited" because "how do we know this is true" and "how do we know that their testing will even pick up Diacetyl" , "where is the chain of custody" on and on it went.

Several tests were done by other parties until finally someone found some - and voila! we found it, PROOF! - of course their tests procedures and chain of custody was not questioned at all

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Marzuq (21/10/14)

KieranD said:


> Here are the results of those very tests:
> http://www.ecigssa.co.za/threads/th...ny-kings-crown-thread.4662/page-4#post-125356
> 
> Suicide Bunny/King's Crown had their product tested INDEPENDENTLY after this scandal broke out. The tests resulted in the concentrations being so low that they were ruled as Diacetyl Free. All tested liquids returned results of less than 5 particles per million.
> ...



yeah now imagine if the same amount of effort will be put into the clearing of suicide bunny name as well as the apology for the misinformation thrown at the world out there. damage is done with regards to the public eye. the point is not to prove fact but to put a negative twist on vaping. and they have achieved that. we on the other can vape comfortably knowing e liquids are safe for us

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## johan (21/10/14)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> Diacetyl apparently occurs naturally in alcoholic beverages, so I was in trouble a long time ago



Do you inhale your alcoholic beverages? I don't, so I'm safe

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


----------



## Derick (21/10/14)

johan said:


> Do you inhale your alcoholic beverages? I don't, so I'm safe


Well, sometimes I drink so fast it looks like I'm inhaling it

Reactions: Funny 6


----------



## Marzuq (21/10/14)

Derick said:


> The thing is when suicide bunny was first accused of having Diacetyl, they did submit their products to testing and found none - but as witch hunts go, their tests were immediately "discredited" because "how do we know this is true" and "how do we know that their testing will even pick up Diacetyl" , "where is the chain of custody" on and on it went.
> 
> Several tests were done by other parties until finally someone found some - and voila! we found it, PROOF! - of course their tests procedures and chain of custody was not questioned at all



@Derrick i completely agree with you. it is a witch hunt. and e juice manufacturers will be subjected to this kind of crap for ever. i think that whats important is that we as a vaping community remain calm and instead of start to panick and throw a fit, we should rather turn to our vendors and our google fundis to assist in finding out what the real deal is. once we panic and make a scene its plays straight into the anti vaping idiots hands and the public sees this and sees it as 'they panicking so it must be true' type of scenario.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## capetocuba (21/10/14)

Then you get Water Intoxication ... even water in very large amounts kills 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## rogue zombie (21/10/14)

johan said:


> Do you inhale your alcoholic beverages? I don't, so I'm safe



lol ...

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Yash (21/10/14)

I don't know guys, I am slightly concerned now.

There are more results here:

http://thesuicidebunny.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/SB-AP-Results.pdf

Acetyl Propionyl was found, so their lab testing wasn't complete.

Yes, these things are in everyday foods, but we aren't vaporizing these foods at 1000 degrees Celsius.

Take a look at Phil Busardos video on the Sigelei 100w mod, he takes 20awg Kanthal and hits at 100w and it melts! 

Melting point of Kanthal is well over 1200 degrees.


----------



## Danny (21/10/14)

Yash said:


> I don't know guys, I am slightly concerned now.
> 
> There are more results here:
> 
> ...


The AP results were a bit more concerning. We arent vaping at 1000 degrees thought more like 250-300 I think. Resistors in a fluid medium typically only heat up to the boiling point of that medium, until there is too little of the fluid left to absorb the extra energy ( eg when your wick is dry)

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Derick (21/10/14)

Yash said:


> I don't know guys, I am slightly concerned now.
> 
> There are more results here:
> 
> ...


If you are vaping at 1000 degrees celsius you will be combusting your PG and VG, then you will be inhaling acrolein and the 0.0001% of Acetoin will be the least of your problems

EDIT: Acrolein tastes horrible, it burns your mouth, throat, nose and lungs and makes your eyes water - you will definitely know if you are vaping acrolein

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2 | Informative 1


----------



## Yash (21/10/14)

I am fully aware that I'm not vaping at 1000 degrees, but the fact of the matter is that you don't know what temperature you are vaping at.

And even more concerning, is what happens to eliquid when you pass the flash point. It's easy to pass the flash point with the new devices out there and super sub-ohm builds in mechanical mods.


----------



## Derick (21/10/14)

Yash said:


> I am fully aware that I'm not vaping at 1000 degrees, but the fact of the matter is that you don't know what temperature you are vaping at.
> 
> And even more concerning, is what happens to eliquid when you pass the flash point. It's easy to pass the flash point with the new devices out there and super sub-ohm builds in mechanical mods.


Flash point is something else - the flash point for PG for example is only 130 Celsius - an evod can - and probably does - reach that with normal vaping. Flash point just means that sufficient vapour is produced that the vapour can catch fire

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Danny (21/10/14)

Yash said:


> I am fully aware that I'm not vaping at 1000 degrees, but the fact of the matter is that you don't know what temperature you are vaping at.
> 
> And even more concerning, is what happens to eliquid when you pass the flash point. It's easy to pass the flash point with the new devices out there and super sub-ohm builds in mechanical mods.


The only response I can give is once again moderation. super subohm and high wattage mods will eventually cause problems and have caused problems (or should I say extremist users of such devices have caused problems). They dont represent a moderate approach to vaping and would increase the risks involved. 

I just dont think we need to follow the american trend of panicking over every blurb that comes up in the media. Especially when they arent substantiated, they still havent even proven the chemicals are actually responsible for the damage they are accused of causing.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## johan (21/10/14)

Boiling vs. Burning:

Boiling isn't Burning, it is rapid vaporizing. i.e; if you drip water onto a hot plate it will evaporate, not burn. Vaporizing occurs when a liquid is heated to its specific boiling point, the temperature at which the vapor pressure of the liquid is equal to the pressure exerted on the liquid by the surrounding environmental pressure.

On the other hand, burning (combustion) is a high-temperature exothermic chemical reaction between a fuel and an oxidant, usually atmospheric oxygen that produces oxidized, often gaseous products in a mixture termed Smoke.

Combustion of a liquid fuel (i.e gasoline) in an oxidizing atmosphere actually happens in the gas phase. The fumes from gasoline are what ignite, not the liquid, because gasoline has a low flash point. That is why it appears to explode, since all of the gas fumes ignite to quickly.

The Flash Point of PG is more/less 109C (or 228F)
The Flash Point of VG is more/less 193C (or 379F)

PS. I miss the "special characters and symbols" function we use to have on this forum software.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Derick (21/10/14)

PG also has an autoignition point of around 500 Celsius - so it gets that hot, it bursts into flames. At which point Acrolein will be produced in boat loads. 

And interesting fact for you USP grade PG is allowed to have 1ppm Arsenic in it - so 5ppm Acetoin is really besides the point

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


----------



## Derick (21/10/14)

Here's some reading info on PG & VG
http://chemicalland21.com/petrochemical/propylene glycol.htm
http://www.chemicalland21.com/lifescience/foco/GLYCEROL.htm

Both can have Arsenic in it - and like that quote I posted earlier - everything is poison, just the dose determines if it is actually bad for you

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 3


----------



## GerharddP (21/10/14)

Just to add my two cents. I would advise anyone to go and read up on the laws of thermodynamics. If you do not understand those laws I will explain them in layman's terms. Look at it this way, your kettle element will reach way beyond the boiling point of water because the energy is "transformed" from electrical to heat energy, with no water to absorb the excess heat the resistance will increase as the temperature increases and thus the temp will increase until the melting point of the element wire is reached at which point the current will increase so much that the metal turns to gas and disconnects the current flow. If there is water present the element (by the laws of first year physics) will only ever reach the boiling point of the surrounding medium as this medium will absorb the energy and change state, thus you will never on God's green earth reach a 1000C unless your wick is dry and even if you somehow bypass the laws of physics and thermodynamics you wont get close to even 300C. Example being, put your oven at max, wait for it to reach that temp and then open the door and try to take a breath. Ive worked in a smelting facility before and without cooled air being pumped into your suit you will not survive and the air temp there only reaches +-70C.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Useful 2


----------



## GerharddP (21/10/14)

GerharddP said:


> Just to add my two cents. I would advise anyone to go and read up on the laws of thermodynamics. If you do not understand those laws I will explain them in layman's terms. Look at it this way, your kettle element will reach way beyond the boiling point of water because the energy is "transformed" from electrical to heat energy, with no water to absorb the excess heat the resistance will increase as the temperature increases and thus the temp will increase until the melting point of the element wire is reached at which point the current will increase so much that the metal turns to gas and disconnects the current flow. If there is water present the element (by the laws of first year physics) will only ever reach the boiling point of the surrounding medium as this medium will absorb the energy and change state, thus you will never on God's green earth reach a 1000C unless your wick is dry and even if you somehow bypass the laws of physics and thermodynamics you wont get close to even 300C. Example being, put your oven at max, wait for it to reach that temp and then open the door and try to take a breath. Ive worked in a smelting facility before and without cooled air being pumped into your suit you will not survive and the air temp there only reaches +-70C.



Sorry for the double post but here's a link that's very interesting to read. http://physicsforidiots.com/physics/thermodynamics/

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Derick (21/10/14)

GerharddP said:


> Just to add my two cents. I would advise anyone to go and read up on the laws of thermodynamics. If you do not understand those laws I will explain them in layman's terms. Look at it this way, your kettle element will reach way beyond the boiling point of water because the energy is "transformed" from electrical to heat energy, with no water to absorb the excess heat the resistance will increase as the temperature increases and thus the temp will increase until the melting point of the element wire is reached at which point the current will increase so much that the metal turns to gas and disconnects the current flow. If there is water present the element (by the laws of first year physics) will only ever reach the boiling point of the surrounding medium as this medium will absorb the energy and change state, thus you will never on God's green earth reach a 1000C unless your wick is dry and even if you somehow bypass the laws of physics and thermodynamics you wont get close to even 300C. Example being, put your oven at max, wait for it to reach that temp and then open the door and try to take a breath. Ive worked in a smelting facility before and without cooled air being pumped into your suit you will not survive and the air temp there only reaches +-70C.


Can I like this post twice?

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Mklops (21/10/14)

Screw it, I just ordered a bottle of Madrina, looks to tastey to give up!!!!

And like it's been said, we all have put worse in our bodies!

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## GerharddP (21/10/14)

Derick said:


> Can I like this post twice?



Im not a Mod but if it was up to me you are more than welcome good Sir.....

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## GerharddP (21/10/14)

Mklops said:


> Screw it, I just ordered a bottle of Madrina, looks to tastey to give up!!!!
> 
> And like it's been said, we all have put worse in our bodies!



Well to ease any further queries just Google "wildfire smoke composition" so yes if you have ever been at or have "braaied" (<--sorry) in your life then you have inhaled some really bad @$$ stuff..yet i love a good vleisie

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


----------



## johan (21/10/14)

Nobody mentioned it yet, but if you smell a fart, you've already inhaled in various percentages:
Methane
Carbon dioxide
Nitrogen
Hydrogen

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


----------



## Alex (21/10/14)

johan said:


> Nobody mentioned it yet, but if you smell a fart, you've already inhaled in various percentages:
> Methane
> Carbon dioxide
> Nitrogen
> Hydrogen


I avoid lifts whenever possible.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


----------

