# Single vs. Multi Battery Mods



## Intuthu Kagesi (20/9/20)

I'm curious as to why the proliferation of Series Dual and Triple Battery Mods, and not Parallel Dual and Triple Battery Mods in the market.

Logically with two, (or more?), 18650 batteries in series, the total current flow limitation is still that of a single battery, call it 25Amps for purposes of this post, however the voltage would be the sum of the two batteries voltages or 3.65Volts * 2 = 7.3Volts.

The lowest theoretical load you could have, (WITHOUT any form of regulation), on a two cell series mod thus would be (3.65Volts*2)/25Amps or 0.282 Ohms, which equates to 182.5 Watts.
The above does NOT take into account the battery internal resistance either!

Furthermore; In a regulated mod, the battery voltage almost becomes irrelevant, as the mod controls, (lowers in this case), the effective output voltage by virtue of pulse width modulation to safe preset limits, so provided the regulated output voltage remains below 3.65 Volts, there is absolutely no advantage to a dual series mod for most vapers.

To get this into perspective; A single cell mod's theoretical maximum power is, (assuming a 25Amp limitation, true of most 18650 batteries sold in SA, along with a voltage 0f 3.65Volts), 91.25Watts.
As most people seem to vape below 50Watts, (and sub ohm to boot), I question whether dual cell series mods are required, as they certainly don't offer any improvement on battery life given the above example, (the only exception would be vapers who use very HIGH coil resistances), also;

Why aren't there parallel cell mods, as that would give twice the battery life, and allow for even lower resistance coils as the maximum current would then double, enabling 50Amps at 3.65 Volts, or 182Watts into 0.073 Ohms, which logically should excite the cloud blowers no end ... me too with the extended battery life.



Incidentally ... The example of parallel vs. series connected batteries having the same power output, and justified by the formulas;
(3.65 * 2) * 25 = 182.5Watts for Series Batteries, and;
3.65 *(25 * 2) = 182.5Watts for Parallel Batteries is mute
This based on the above reference of sub ohm coil resistances, which require voltages BELOW that of single battery voltages.

Attached as reference;

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## ARYANTO (20/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I'm curious as to why the proliferation of Series Dual and Triple Battery Mods, and not Parallel Dual and Triple Battery Mods in the market.
> 
> Logically with two, (or more?), 18650 batteries in series, the total current flow limitation is still that of a single battery, call it 25Amps for purposes of this post, however the voltage would be the sum of the two batteries voltages or 3.65Volts * 2 = 7.3Volts.
> 
> ...


My brain is too much in ''isolation'' mode to process all this detail - mod takes 2 batteries ,they lasts a day , I'm ok - the end

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## Silver (20/9/20)

It’s a good question @Intuthu Kagesi 
I am curious after reading your post

I wonder if there are any parallel regulated dual mods around?
I know the noisy cricket (semi mech) can be switched from series to parallel

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## Dela Rey Steyn (20/9/20)

Silver said:


> It’s a good question @Intuthu Kagesi
> I am curious after reading your post
> 
> I wonder if there are any parallel regulated dual mods around?
> I know the noisy cricket (semi mech) can be switched from series to parallel



The Noisy is a straight parallel mech and regulated in series to my knowledge

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## DougP (20/9/20)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> The Noisy is a straight parallel mech and regulated in series to my knowledge


The noisy V2 has 3 modes 
Straight parallel
Regulated series
Unregulated series

The original noisy V1 has 2 modes 
Straight parallel
Unregulated series




Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Timwis (20/9/20)

"As most people seem to vape below 50Watts, (and sub ohm to boot), I question whether dual cell series mods are required, as they certainly don't offer any improvement on battery life given the above example"

I really don't know all the technical stuff and 90% of your post goes straight over my head but the part i have quoted just isn't true as basically every dual 18650 device i have lasts twice as long as a single 18650 and my dual 21700 devices last twice as long as my single 21700 devices.

The way battery life was explained to me between series and parallel was one way it's like both batteries are added together so essentially become one bigger battery and the other way they act as separate batteries so one way the mAh is doubled and the other not but then when you vape the configuration where the mAh isn't doubled you only use half the mAh per battery for the same identical vape at a certain wattage and time duration.

I was given two different maths equations which i can't find which gave the difference between how battery life is worked out between series and parallel and although the two equations were completely different the end battery life as in how it would effect a vaper with a regulated device worked out exactly the same. It was though then explained that there would just be the slightest improvement in battery life and i can't remember if it was in favour of series or parallel because running one way over the other (i can't remember which) was more efficient but we were talking just a couple of %. What i can remember was the efficiency was in favour of the way most think you don't get as good battery life, so essentially they are wrong! But i'm such a muppet i can't remember which was which!

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## THE REAPER (20/9/20)

That is why i ask who vapes at 200w i dont ever see anyone vape above 110w. But everyone wants a 200w mod lol. But thats just what i am seeing maybe some one does vape at 200w dont know.

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## Timwis (20/9/20)

THE REAPER said:


> That is why i ask who vapes at 200w i dont ever see anyone vape above 110w. But everyone wants a 200w mod lol. But thats just what i am seeing maybe some one does vape at 200w dont know.


People go for the double battery life "which you do get" that's why i don't agree with that part of the OP!

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## Timwis (20/9/20)

Timwis said:


> People go for the double battery life "which you do get" that's why i don't agree with that part of the OP!


Personally i like both dual and single battery devices but if i was told i had to choose between the 2 i would opt for single battery especially since we started getting 21700 devices because i just don't like carrying a dual battery device about with me preferring something more portable!

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## Puff the Magic Dragon (20/9/20)

Watch Mooch's video on series and parallel batteries.

The regulated bit starts from the 10th min but it's worth starting from the beginning.



I prefer using dual battery regulated mods for the battery life. As Mooch explains the two batteries will give you double the life in theory. He explains why this is not always the case.

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## Room Fogger (20/9/20)

Silver said:


> It’s a good question @Intuthu Kagesi
> I am curious after reading your post
> 
> I wonder if there are any parallel regulated dual mods around?
> I know the noisy cricket (semi mech) can be switched from series to parallel


My old Therion 75 is a parallel dual battery mod, and in most cases a set lasts me the whole day, but this is at 18 W on a 0.7 + Ohm coil. It’s still going strong as a daily beater, and if I can ever get one again I’ll take it. But you don’t see them around any more.

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## Timwis (20/9/20)

Room Fogger said:


> My old Therion 75 is a parallel dual battery mod, and in most cases a set lasts me the whole day, but this is at 18 W on a 0.7 + Ohm coil. It’s still going strong as a daily beater, and if I can ever get one again I’ll take it. But you don’t see them around any more.


When i bought my 250C Rebel Mod i considered getting the dual battery 75C version but i was put off because it was in Parallel with no reverse polarity protection, in fact i originally ordered it and Rebel contacted me and talked me into changing devices, they also said they were discontinuing it on safety grounds! My Therion 75C like the 75 also is a dual parallel set-up and personally i prefer that to my 250C Paranormal!

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## Timwis (20/9/20)

Timwis said:


> When i bought my 250C Rebel Mod i considered getting the dual battery 75C version but i was put off because it was in Parallel with no reverse polarity protection, in fact i originally ordered it and Rebel contacted me and talked me into changing devices, they also said they were discontinuing it on safety grounds! My Therion 75C like the 75 also is a dual parallel set-up and personally i prefer that to my 250C Paranormal!


Love this device!

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## DavyH (20/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I'm curious as to why the proliferation of Series Dual and Triple Battery Mods, and not Parallel Dual and Triple Battery Mods in the market.
> 
> Logically with two, (or more?), 18650 batteries in series, the total current flow limitation is still that of a single battery, call it 25Amps for purposes of this post, however the voltage would be the sum of the two batteries voltages or 3.65Volts * 2 = 7.3Volts.
> 
> ...



Since mods don’t use fixed and balanced battery packs, wouldn’t there be a degree of risk in running unbalanced batteries in parallel (although I doubt the voltage differential is going to be high enough to cause a catastrophic failure)?

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## Resistance (20/9/20)

DavyH said:


> Since mods don’t use fixed and balanced battery packs, wouldn’t there be a degree of risk in running unbalanced batteries in parallel (although I doubt the voltage differential is going to be high enough to cause a catastrophic failure)?


That's the main reason people pair and marry them. It would be a total bummer if it was both new and one was lazy from the start. Then the difference between them would matter.

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## Resistance (20/9/20)

I didn't like dual batt mods when I started vaping. Now it's my go to for DL. And prefere single bat. Mods for MTL.
However when I'm in a remote location where charging is an issue and the single bat. Runs down. I prefer a single coil on a dual mod(MTL or DL)it last longer.

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## Silver (20/9/20)

Timwis said:


> "As most people seem to vape below 50Watts, (and sub ohm to boot), I question whether dual cell series mods are required, as they certainly don't offer any improvement on battery life given the above example"
> 
> I really don't know all the technical stuff and 90% of your post goes straight over my head but the part i have quoted just isn't true as basically every dual 18650 device i have lasts twice as long as a single 18650 and my dual 21700 devices last twice as long as my single 21700 devices.
> 
> ...



I hear you @Timwis and with the regulation it does get confusing.

But from my practical experience :

On my dual battery mods I get about double the throughput of juice as I do on a single batt mod. (Same setup and power)

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## Timwis (20/9/20)

Silver said:


> I hear you @Timwis and with the regulation it does get confusing.
> 
> But from my practical experience :
> 
> On my dual battery mods I get about double the throughput of juice as I do on a single batt mod. (Same setup and power)


That's what i said! lol

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## Silver (20/9/20)

Timwis said:


> That's what i said! lol



then I am backing you up
You are right one gets more juice vaped on 2 batts than 1

whether it’s double the amount depends on the mod but it’s definitely much more from what I’ve experienced

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## Puff the Magic Dragon (21/9/20)

IMO there is no debate if Moose has already said it!

If I am out of the house I almost always use dual battery mods. If I take a single battery mod I have to take a spare battery. It's easier to keep the extra battery in the mod.

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## Timwis (21/9/20)

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> IMO there is no debate if Moose has already said it!
> 
> If I an out of the house I almost always use dual battery mods. If I take a single battery mod I have to take a spare battery. It's easier to keep the extra battery in the mod.


I'm the opposite only would use dual battery indoors and find a single battery device with a fresh battery when leaving the house lasts with ease and with a single 21700 it laughs at a day out. I do of late vape MTL but even when i'm vaping DL around 30-40watts still find a single battery will last no problem. I guess you must vape at higher wattage's because in years i have never took a spare battery out with me and never ran out of battery life and i can vape a lot so i think it's down to what wattage people vape at as surely if there is no need having something more portable is more desirable.

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## Stranger (21/9/20)

Batteries in parallel will increase your amp hours, or size if you will, the voltage will remain the same.

Batteries in series will increase your voltage with the same amp hours.

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## Timwis (21/9/20)

Stranger said:


> Batteries in parallel will increase your amp hours, or size if you will, the voltage will remain the same.
> 
> Batteries in series will increase your voltage with the same amp hours.


In theory you have more starting battery life in Parallel but in series the ampage for the same vape is shared between the two batteries (or something like that) any way you basically get through your mAh life at half the rate. Different equations but when it actually comes to how much vape time a vaper gets it's basically the same!

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## Stranger (21/9/20)

Indeed, makes a huge difference in automotive and solar applications but is so small in vaping as to be almost redundant. An example is what I do with 12v systems for guys that do overlanding and bush camping. A 50L camping fridge can be run with a single 100 amp/h deep cycle which will give you around 50 amps of usable power. Use an 85L fridge and now you need two 100 amp batteries in parallel to drive the compressors

The fridges are still on 12 V but a dual compressor is going to chew more than a single in amperage, not volts. Same applies to dual coil and single coil.

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## Timwis (21/9/20)

Stranger said:


> Indeed, makes a huge difference in automotive and solar applications but is so small in vaping as to be almost redundant. An example is what I do with 12v systems for guys that do overlanding and bush camping. A 50L camping fridge can be run with a single 100 amp/h deep cycle which will give you around 50 amps of usable power. Use an 85L fridge and now you need two 100 amp batteries in parallel to drive the compressors
> 
> The fridges are still on 12 V but a dual compressor is going to chew more than a single in amperage, not volts. Same applies to dual coil and single coil.


Your'e getting a bit above my brain capacity lol, i only understood about half that i'm just not that technically minded!

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## DougP (21/9/20)

Timwis said:


> I'm the opposite only would use dual battery indoors and find a single battery device with a fresh battery when leaving the house lasts with ease and with a single 21700 it laughs at a day out. I do of late vape MTL but even when i'm vaping DL around 30-40watts still find a single battery will last no problem. I guess you must vape at higher wattage's because in years i have never took a spare battery out with me and never ran out of battery life and i can vape a lot so i think it's down to what wattage people vape at as surely if there is no need having something more portable is more desirable.


 Bossman won't you do me a big favour. 

See your post below and circled part.

I have never heard a 21700 battery laugh before. Next time you go out and pop a battery in it won't you record the laugh it makes and post here.
I'm dying to hear what's a 21700 battery sounds like laughing.






Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Stranger (21/9/20)

18650





21700

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## Dela Rey Steyn (21/9/20)

Just as long as it doesn't sound like this:

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## Stranger (21/9/20)

OOoww those ultrafire's. I have had to stop a couple of people putting them in their mods. I hate being a nanny and gave up trying a long time ago but had to convince a few peeps that what it said on the label was not so. The one bloke told me to pissoff I did not know what I was talking about.

I have not heard from him in a while.

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## Timwis (21/9/20)

Blends Of Distinction said:


> Bossman won't you do me a big favour.
> 
> See your post below and circled part.
> 
> ...


It's more of a chuckle!

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## Puff the Magic Dragon (21/9/20)

Timwis said:


> I'm the opposite only would use dual battery indoors and find a single battery device with a fresh battery when leaving the house lasts with ease and with a single 21700 it laughs at a day out. I do of late vape MTL but even when i'm vaping DL around 30-40watts still find a single battery will last no problem. I guess you must vape at higher wattage's because in years i have never took a spare battery out with me and never ran out of battery life and i can vape a lot so i think it's down to what wattage people vape at as surely if there is no need having something more portable is more desirable.



Yup. It's all about the wattage. I can't last on a single 18650 or 21700 on a long time out of the house.

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## Timwis (21/9/20)

Stranger said:


> 18650
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your batteries laugh too, absolutely spitting! Saves me making a recording.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/20)

Timwis said:


> "As most people seem to vape below 50Watts, (and sub ohm to boot), I question whether dual cell series mods are required, as they certainly don't offer any improvement on battery life given the above example"
> 
> I really don't know all the technical stuff and 90% of your post goes straight over my head but the part i have quoted just isn't true as basically every dual 18650 device i have lasts twice as long as a single 18650 and my dual 21700 devices last twice as long as my single 21700 devices.
> 
> ...



Firstly my apologies for the protracted replies ... I spent the past week in Durbs, returning earlier this evening after witnessing one helluva accident outside Sir Vape's shop earlier in the week .... anyhoooo ....

Hi Timwis,
I had someone attempt, (unsuccessfully), to explain it to me, and ... sorry to say this ...
Single and Parallel Batteries DO NOT have the same Amp-hour rating, (battery life in this context), if the effective voltage seen by the coil(s), mesh or ceramic pads is below a single cell voltage
I'll gladly demonstrate this practically if required.
It would indeed be true however IF you were to use high resistance coils at high power, (which no one does!), making the argument mute, hence my questioning same.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/20)

Stranger said:


> Batteries in parallel will increase your amp hours, or size if you will, the voltage will remain the same.
> 
> Batteries in series will increase your voltage with the same amp hours.


Exactly! ... Hence my argument that a single battery would in theory be identical in terms of battery life


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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/20)

Timwis said:


> In theory you have more starting battery life in Parallel but in series the ampage for the same vape is shared between the two batteries (or something like that) any way you basically get through your mAh life at half the rate. Different equations but when it actually comes to how much vape time a vaper gets it's basically the same!



It cannot be the same!
Simply put; Two or more cells in series would have the same A/hr rating as a single cell, sooooo ... assuming that your coil "sees" a voltage of no more than a single cell, (aka via a regulated mod), then the cell life would be the same irrespective of whether you had one or even twenty cells in series.


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## Jacques3Fox (27/9/20)

Timwis said:


> In theory you have more starting battery life in Parallel but in series the ampage for the same vape is shared between the two batteries (or something like that) any way you basically get through your mAh life at half the rate. Different equations but when it actually comes to how much vape time a vaper gets it's basically the same!



In parallel you have a “current divider” setup, which means that if the batteries are equal is capacity, voltage in internal resistance then the total current will be shared equally between the 2 batteries, hence the term a current divider. In a series configuration the total current that passes through both batteries are equal as it cannot be shared or divided. Basically what goes in on the one side of battery 1 comes out on the other end of battery 2. A series configuration is commonly referred to as a voltage divider.

The reason why people tend to think it last longer might not be the case, is subjective and does not follow Kirchoff’s law. Although you still vape at 25w or 50w or whatever, the output voltage to the coil will still remain the same as the coil resistance is fixed. Only if you change the wattage then the voltage will increase or decrease.

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## Timwis (27/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Exactly! ... Hence my argument that a single battery would in theory be identical in terms of battery life


So the fact that at the same wattage without fail over the last 6 years (since we really started getting dual battery devices) my dual battery devices between battery swaps last twice as long as my single battery devices without fail is a fiction of my imagination, what ever the theory dual battery devices last twice as long as single battery devices and i go by practice (reality) not theory that doesn't pan out!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/20)

ThreeFoxVapes said:


> In parallel you have a “current divider” setup, which means that if the batteries are equal is capacity, voltage in internal resistance then the total current will be shared equally between the 2 batteries, hence the term a current divider. In a series configuration the total current that passes through both batteries are equal as it cannot be shared or divided. Basically what goes in on the one side of battery 1 comes out on the other end of battery 2. A series configuration is commonly referred to as a voltage divider.
> 
> The reason why people tend to think it last longer might not be the case, is subjective and does not follow Kirchoff’s law. Although you still vape at 25w or 50w or whatever, the output voltage to the coil will still remain the same as the coil resistance is fixed. Only if you change the wattage then the voltage will increase or decrease.



I think the key is the subjectivity

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/20)

Timwis said:


> So the fact that at the same wattage without fail over the last 6 years (since we really started getting dual battery devices) my dual battery devices between battery swaps last twice as long as my single battery devices without fail is a fiction of my imagination, what ever the theory dual battery devices last twice as long as single battery devices and i go by practice (reality) not theory that doesn't pan out!



I would agree with you IF you had a parallel battery mod, however the math, and a practical test doesn't agree with a series mod having even a slight increase in battery life, (subject to the rider that the voltage "seen" by the coil is equal to or less than a single cell voltage)


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## Timwis (27/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I would agree with you IF you had a parallel battery mod, however the math, and a practical test doesn't agree with a series mod having even a slight increase in battery life, (subject to the rider that the voltage "seen" by the coil is equal to or less than a single cell voltage)


Well it's all my dual battery mods last twice as long (i know whether they last twice as long or not as i am the one using them) as my single battery ones and i have got over 200 of each!


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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/20)

Timwis said:


> Well it's all my dual battery mods last twice as long (i know whether they last twice as long or not as i am the one using them) as my single battery ones and i have got over 200 of each!



I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you I'm afraid  as it's physically impossible ...
Two batteries in series raise the voltage sure, however you aren't using that additional potential difference, as we're discussing sub ohm with coil voltages less than that of a single cell, and ... as the cells are in series, the same current flows through both.
Another name for Voltage is Potential Difference, so placing cells in series raises their POTENTIAL, however the actuality is still that of less than a single cell

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## M.Adhir (27/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Firstly my apologies for the protracted replies ... I spent the past week in Durbs, returning earlier this evening after witnessing one helluva accident outside Sir Vape's shop earlier in the week .... anyhoooo ....



I saw footage of this accident. Was horrendous to say the least. Sad that there was a loss of life as well.

On the battery subject - I charge them up. I load into mod. I vape. Batteries get low, I replace.
I find that dual batt devices last me about twice as long when compared to single batt devices at similar wattage. And I like battery wraps, plain, colorful battery wraps. That's about as far as my knowledge goes

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## BubiSparks (27/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Single and Parallel Batteries DO NOT have the same Amp-hour rating,



Yes @Intuthu Kagesi, they don't have the same A/h rating but they do have the same Watt hour rating - So a double cell device will last approximately twice as long as a single cell device (ignoring losses).

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## Timwis (27/9/20)

BubiSparks said:


> Yes @Intuthu Kagesi, they don't have the same A/h rating but they do have the same Watt hour rating - So a double cell device will last approximately twice as long as a single cell device (ignoring losses).


So i am not going crazy?

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## BubiSparks (27/9/20)

Indeed @Timwis = YOU ARE NOT

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## DougP (28/9/20)

Timwis said:


> So i am not going crazy?


Then I'm going crazy to... 

Took a tank and placed it on my dual battery mod and vaped until mod said low battery and stopped firing. Then swopped the tank to my single battery mod running same ohms and wattage and vaped it till mod said low battery and stopped firing. 

I can conclusively say the battery life lasted almost double on the dual battery mod and also the puff counters on each mod confirmed this. 


Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Timwis (28/9/20)

DougP said:


> Then I'm going crazy to...
> 
> Took a tank and placed it on my dual battery mod and vaped until mod said low battery and stopped firing. Then swopped the tank to my single battery mod running same ohms and wattage and vaped it till mod said low battery and stopped firing.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it was explained to me once that in series the mAh isn't doubled but the calculation of how wattage uses up the mAh between series and parallel is different and the end result you get the same Watt hour which is what determines vape time!

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## BubiSparks (28/9/20)

Consider:
A single cell is fully charged at 4.2V. At 3.2V it is fully discharged - that's a voltage drop of 1V.

If we have two cells in series: Fully charged they are at 8.4V and discharged at 6.4V - That's a drop of 2V. It stands to reason that this drop will take twice as long to happen.

In parallel: The voltage is at 4.2V (charged) and 3.2V (discharged), but the current drawn from each cell is halved, so again, twice the time to discharge to 3.2V.

This simplification assumes the same load (coil) and ignores internal resistance so series and parallel circuits won't last exactly the same time, but it will be close.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/20)

Lets have a look at the circuit below, and assume that the Pulse Width Modulation Circuitry has no losses, and plug in some typical values;

Lets also assume that we are using a 0.5 Ohm heating coil running at say 15 Watts.

This would mean that the current flowing through this coil is equal to the square root of coil power divided by the coil Resistance, (see Formula Wheel Below), or 5.477 Amps.

It also means that the voltage across the coils would be 5.477 Amps / 0.5 Ohms, or 2.738 Volts.

The Pulse Width circuitry would be controlling the voltage, and the current displayed in the ammeter to the left of the circuit, would be identical to the one on the right, as this is a series circuit.

The Voltage displayed on the Voltmeter connected to the battery(ies) however would be displaying a different reading to the voltmeter across the heating coils, as the Pulse Width Modulation Circuitry would be controlling the coil voltage.

As Battery "life" is determined in Amp hours, (ie. how many amps can flow in one hour), and as this is a series circuit, it makes NO DIFFERENCE whether there is one or even 500 batteries connected to it, as the voltage seen by the heating coils would always be constant, and the current flowing through ALL batteries would be the same

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/20)

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> Watch Mooch's video on series and parallel batteries.
> 
> The regulated bit starts from the 10th min but it's worth starting from the beginning.
> 
> ...




I like MOST of what this guy says, however there is a contradiction ... 
Battery life is measured in Amp/hours, so a parallel battery mod would increase the life, and a series battery mod, would be the same as a single cell mod PROVIDED the voltage across the coil(s) is lower than the voltage of a single cell ... Which he admits, (check the ringed elements below);

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## Stranger (28/9/20)

A good explanation here 

Probably the best-known example of a dual-cell series box is the Wismec Noisy Cricket. A series battery configuration is just as described: the batteries are placed (or connected) end-to-end, one after another. The most common example of series battery usage outside of vaping would be a dual battery flashlight.

In a series configuration, the resulting voltage is additive — in our example 3.7V + 3.7V = 7.4V. The current in the circuit, however, is limited to the maximum CDR of a single battery or 20 amps since the same current is pulled through both batteries. Lastly, the life of our series configuration would also be the equivalent of a single battery or 2000 mAh.

Higher voltage output
Muscle to drive large wire mass

Current limited to equivalent of a single battery
Battery capacity / run time
May run too hot for low-wattage vapers
The key thing to remember is that the same load (build) is going to behave very differently on each of these mods. For example: On a parallel mod at 3.7 volts, a 0.15-ohm load will pull 24.6 amps from your batteries and result in around 91.3 watts. The same load on a series box at 7.4 volts would pull over 49.3 amps and give you 365 watts — which of course is way outside of the safe limits of the batteries.

If you up the resistance of your build to 0.5-ohms, and use heavier wire — like clapton coils — the resulting load will pull 7.4 amps and deliver a mere 27.4 watts to your coils on a parallel mod. The coils will heat slowly, and the vape will be cool. On the series mod, the claptons will pull 14.8 amps and give you just under 110 watts, and the coils will ramp very quickly compared to the parallel box, giving you a much warmer and denser vape.

*We recommend not going below 0.5 ohms when building for a series mod.*

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## Stranger (28/9/20)

Using the above example it tells us a couple of important things.

Amp ratings of batteries are of utmost importance if you build your own coils or use low ohm pre built.

Using two or more coils will lower your resistance. Two coils for example will half it. 1 coil at .5 will equal .25 if you install a dual coil.

Using the car versus truck analogy. Most cars have equipment that runs on 12 V, so one 12 V battery can run these. On a truck, they have 24 V equipment, so to achieve this they take 2 x 12 V batteries and connect them in series.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/20)

Agreed Stranger 

I agree wholeheartedly, with what you're saying ... IF you took advantage of the higher voltage of a series cell mod, and RAISED the resistance of the coils to keep the power dissipation constant, then logically you would indeed get a greater battery life, however the move in the market place is the other way  .... It's towards LOWER RESISTANCES, (sub ohm heating coils / mesh / pads), and at the same time mods are moving towards multi SERIES cells, which seems counterintuitive to me 

My opening post questioned the market moving to SERIES multi cell mods, as the fact remains, that there is no inherent advantage of series multi cell mods over a single cell mod based on the amp/hour rating remaining the same, (_assuming sub ohm coils and loads below 50 Watts_), however;
If coil resistances were to go up in the case of series mods, or ... 
If the cells were to be placed in parallel, then battery life would improve substantially.

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## Stranger (28/9/20)

The only advantage that I can see in a vaping context was if you wanted instant and large volume vaporization. Perhaps for competition ... OH wait... there are some folk that just want to blow huge clouds to compensate for the size of their penises or self esteem.

So I can see the logic behind such devices, but it does not fit in with ADV. For that you need longevity and a 2 or 3 battery mod in parallel is the answer.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/20)

Stranger said:


> The only advantage that I can see in a vaping context was if you wanted instant and large volume vaporization. Perhaps for competition ... OH wait... there are some folk that just want to blow huge clouds to compensate for the size of their penises or self esteem.
> 
> So I can see the logic behind such devices, but it does not fit in with ADV. For that you need longevity and a 2 or 3 battery mod in parallel is the answer.



Too funny  ... Methinks you may be right here tho'

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## Dela Rey Steyn (28/9/20)

OK, let's see how this goes.
Voopoo Argus GT, it is a dual battery mod, series configuration. 
Married set of Molicel P26A 18650 batteries. Fully charged. 
0.63 ohms coil resistance 
I've cleared the puff counter. Will vape this until my batteries are flat. And then I'll switch over to a single battery mod (Drag X) using the same Atomizer and build and also a single unmarried Molicel P26A cell. 
Then we can see if there is a difference in amount of puffs/vaping time between a single and a dual battery mod. Both devices will be vaped at 15w. 
All my batteries are externally charged, usb cable plugged in on the side solely to illustrate battery levels.

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## DarthBranMuffin (28/9/20)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> OK, let's see how this goes.
> Voopoo Argus GT, it is a dual battery mod, series configuration. Married set of Molicel P26A 18650 batteries. Fully charged. 0.63 ohms coil resistance an I've cleared the puff counter. Will vape this until my batteries are flat. And then I'll switch over to a single battery mod using the same Atomizer and build and also a single unmarried Molicel P26A cell. Then we can see if there is a difference in amount of puffs/vaping time between a single and a dual battery mod. Both devices will be vaped at 15w.
> View attachment 208966
> View attachment 208967



Now that is a brilliant idea @Dela Rey Steyn! Wanted to do the same, but realized I am still waiting for my replacement single battery mod and cant do it right now... unless i "borrow" one of the Mrs' mods when she gets home tonight... that now comes from passing the good stuff on to her... would love to hear your outcome on this!

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## DougP (28/9/20)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> OK, let's see how this goes.
> Voopoo Argus GT, it is a dual battery mod, series configuration.
> Married set of Molicel P26A 18650 batteries. Fully charged.
> 0.63 ohms coil resistance
> ...


See my post above that is exactly what I did.. So let's see if you confirm my findings. 
I can also point out I bought 4 new batteries and they were all charged on an external charger to 4.20 volts. 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Stranger (28/9/20)

You will get these results if your batteries are linked in parallel. As stated, linked in parallel will increase the amp hours or in our case Mah. So 2 x 2500 Mah batteries will give you 5000 Mah. Link these same batteries in series and you will be able to produce higher volts but you will still only have 2500 Mah

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## DougP (28/9/20)

Stranger said:


> You will get these results if your batteries are linked in parallel. As stated, linked in parallel will increase the amp hours or in our case Mah. So 2 x 2500 Mah batteries will give you 5000 Mah. Link these same batteries in series and you will be able to produce higher volts but you will still only have 2500 Mah


This is so confusing.. 
The question begs then...
If dual battery mods in series (literally 99% of mods on the market) gives same battery life as a single battery mod then have we as consumers been taken for ride and exploited.

Why would manufactorers then even release a dual battery mod in series other than for financial gain, and, why would we as consumers even purchase them given their price compared to single battery mods 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Stranger (28/9/20)

Because they are not series mods, there are a few that I know of like the cricket and the Luxotic nc.

We have to understand how the batteries are "wired"

Most mods are "wired " in parallel. This is simply a function of how the batteries are joined together physically.




Your car takes 12V to start it, I can't do that with pic 1, but I can with pic 2

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## Dela Rey Steyn (28/9/20)

This is going to be a very very very long test. At the 100 puff mark. My last puff was 1.31 seconds, which is about average. So roughly 2.18 minutes total vaping time so far. Not even a dent in the battery levels yet. Going to have to switch to a 12mg fruity liquid for the rest of this test. The resistance drop on the Coil is just the SS316L coil settling in.

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## Stranger (28/9/20)

Please tell me what the V reading is when you fire it. Thanks


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## Dela Rey Steyn (28/9/20)

Stranger said:


> Please tell me what the V reading is when you fire it. Thanks


3.28v

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## Stranger (28/9/20)

OH boy talking about putting your anatomy on the block.

I predict: 65 - 70 minutes and over 800 puffs (your puff time is quite short.)

I would also ask that as the batteries drain down, say 400 puffs, please post the voltage again. Thanks


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## Dela Rey Steyn (28/9/20)

Stranger said:


> OH boy talking about putting your anatomy on the block.
> 
> I predict: 65 - 70 minutes and over 800 puffs (your puff time is quite short.)
> 
> I would also ask that as the batteries drain down, say 400 puffs, please post the voltage again. Thanks


Yip, 18mg Freebase, I'm definitely not taking any long puffs on this! I'll post again at 200 puffs.

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## DougP (28/9/20)

Stranger said:


> Because they are not series mods, there are a few that I know of like the cricket and the Luxotic nc.
> 
> We have to understand how the batteries are "wired"
> 
> ...


If they not series then why do the Batteries go opposite sides up in the mod and then bridged by the battery door like in series, positive to negetive 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## BubiSparks (28/9/20)

One has to look at this from a power perspective. Say you have set 30W on the mod. A single cell mod will draw the full 30W from the single cell. In a 2 cell mod, whether series or parallel, only 15W will be drawn from each cell, therefore battery life is always approximately doubled when using two cells.
The rate of discharge of the cells will be halved when using 2 cells. It will take roughly twice as long for each cell to go from 4.2V to 3.2V in dual cell configuration as compared to a single cell.

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## DougP (28/9/20)

BubiSparks said:


> One has to look at this from a power perspective. Say you have set 30W on the mod. A single cell mod will draw the full 30W from the single cell. In a 2 cell mod, whether series or parallel, only 15W will be drawn from each cell, therefore battery life is always approximately doubled when using two cells.
> The rate of discharge of the cells will be halved when using 2 cells. It will take roughly twice as long for each cell to go from 4.2V to 3.2V in dual cell configuration as compared to a single cell.


Now this makes sense to me 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Dela Rey Steyn (28/9/20)

Going to take this test with a DL setup rather. Just over 200 puffs and the batteries are stil cruising

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## X-Calibre786 (28/9/20)

In a regulated mod using 2 batteries in series, the input voltage is doubled. This means that to get the same 30w output, the regulator will only draw half the current. See screenshots below. The only variable changed is the voltage.

Single Battery at 3.7v




Dual Battery in series at 7.4v



Because the current draw is roughly halved, the battery life is roughly doubled.

Credit to Steam Engine's calculators
http://www.steam-engine.org/batt

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## Stranger (28/9/20)

So the pic shows the voltage dropping but the W are staying the same.


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## Dela Rey Steyn (28/9/20)

Stranger said:


> So the pic shows the voltage dropping but the W are staying the same.


The chipset regulates the voltage according to the resistance. SS316L wire's resistance fluctuates when heated. The chipset is deciding the amount of volts to apply to give me the required watts.

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## Timwis (28/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I like MOST of what this guy says, however there is a contradiction ...
> Battery life is measured in Amp/hours, so a parallel battery mod would increase the life, and a series battery mod, would be the same as a single cell mod PROVIDED the voltage across the coil(s) is lower than the voltage of a single cell ... Which he admits, (check the ringed elements below);
> 
> View attachment 208954
> View attachment 208955


No one is disputing that the mAh is doubled in parallel and stays the same in series what we are saying is how power is drawn from the batteries in the two set-ups basically gives you the same Watt hour (vape time). You summit theory and stick to your guns which is fair enough but theory isn't proof that can only be proved in practice. So when we put identical builds on a single and dual (series or parallel) mod and vape them both at the same wattage and get pretty much double the puff count with a double battery device that is proof in practice. Problem is you have the first half of the theory but not the second half!

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## Dela Rey Steyn (28/9/20)

After the Coil has cooled down completely, the resistance goes back to 0.62ohm and the supplied volts goes up again. The chipset self regulates. That's why the battery life will be better in a dual battery mod. The chipset only supplies the required voltage to obtain the required watts. It's not a constant drain at 7.4v

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/20)



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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/20)

BubiSparks said:


> One has to look at this from a power perspective. Say you have set 30W on the mod. A single cell mod will draw the full 30W from the single cell. In a 2 cell mod, whether series or parallel, only 15W will be drawn from each cell, therefore battery life is always approximately doubled when using two cells.
> The rate of discharge of the cells will be halved when using 2 cells. It will take roughly twice as long for each cell to go from 4.2V to 3.2V in dual cell configuration as compared to a single cell.



Look at the circuit(s) above ...
There were a couple of key assumptions; Firstly that the voltage applied to the coil(s) was equal to or lower than a single battery, and secondly, that the regulation mechanism power is excluded

The power consumption is measured AFTER the regulation mechanism
The Voltage being greater than what is "seen" by the coil has no relevance, as it is a potential difference ... YES, it has the potential, but its potential aint being used
Battery life is always cited in Amp hours NOT Watt hours, (The Watts are irrelevant here as the full Potential isn't being used!)


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## Stranger (28/9/20)

The above has always been my understanding when working with 12 V systems and I have yet to have a car blow up. I use both PWM controllers and MPPT.

The only time I would put a power supply in series is when hooking up low voltage solar panels to get to 14.4 volts for deep cycle batteries.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/20)

Stranger said:


> The above has always been my understanding when working with 12 V systems and I have yet to have a car blow up. I use both PWM controllers and MPPT.
> 
> The only time I would put a power supply in series is when hooking up low voltage solar panels to get to 14.4 volts for deep cycle batteries.



We may well be wrong on this one Stranger IF they are calculating power to include the heat up cool down effect of PWM, however that honestly would be bulls####, or ... that they are for example taking a PWM of say 50:50, and multiplying the power by 50% to compensate for switching losses, but again, that's bull####
The only possible way you could extend the "life" using series batteries in my opinion, would be to allow the joint battery voltage to sag to the required output voltage, however that would be detrimental to the life of the batteries, albeit that it would win the argument


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## Timwis (28/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Look at the circuit(s) above ...
> There were a couple of key assumptions; Firstly that the voltage applied to the coil(s) was equal to or lower than a single battery, and secondly, that the regulation mechanism power is excluded
> 
> The power consumption is measured AFTER the regulation mechanism
> ...


Get a dual battery device and a single battery device and put the same build in both and vape at the same wattage, that's the practical part and if you say you got the same puffs from both you will be the first vaper i have ever met that have found that to be the case we are not just making it up that we get double the vape time we say it because it's the case! I can get all those diagrams and theories within seconds just copying and pasting from the internet but it doesn't effect what happens when i vape!

See below thanks @X-Calibre786 

In a regulated mod using 2 batteries in series, the input voltage is doubled. This means that to get the same 30w output, the regulator will only draw half the current. See screenshots below. The only variable changed is the voltage.

Single Battery at 3.7v







Dual Battery in series at 7.4v





Because the current draw is roughly halved, the battery life is roughly doubled.

Credit to Steam Engine's calculators
http://www.steam-engine.org/batt

And the practice matches the theory!


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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/20)

If you are correct Timwis, then you're about to rewrite a number of Physics formula, and I'm only too keen to find out more


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## Stranger (28/9/20)

I think we have gone way off the rails here. If the variables are the same and within safety limits, IE a .5 coil on a regulated mod, then YES you will get more time(amp hours or puffs) from a dual battery than what you will get from a single battery.

What the debate has evolved into is parallel versus series configuration and the science there can't change

Parallel will increase the amp hours, voltage will remain the same.
Series will increase the voltage, amp hours will remain the same.

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## Stranger (28/9/20)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> The chipset only supplies the required voltage to obtain the required watts. It's not a constant drain at 7.4v



Nah man, that's cheating


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## Timwis (28/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> If you are correct Timwis, then you're about to rewrite a number of Physics formula, and I'm only too keen to find out more


My information the same as yours is just taken off the internet the difference is what @X-Calibre786 posted from Steam Engine is what i always experience. I have already invited you to try the practice, if you don't that tells me you are not confident in your own theories!

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## Timwis (28/9/20)

Stranger said:


> I think we have gone way off the rails here. If the variables are the same and within safety limits, IE a .5 coil on a regulated mod, then YES you will get more time(amp hours or puffs) from a dual battery than what you will get from a single battery.
> 
> What the debate has evolved into is parallel versus series configuration and the science there can't change
> 
> ...


No all the way through my argument is i get pretty much double the puffs from a dual battery device than a single battery device which @Intuthu Kagesi strongly disputes!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/20)

Timwis said:


> My information the same as yours is just taken off the internet the difference is what @X-Calibre786 posted from Steam Engine is what i always experience. I have already invited you to try the practice, if you don't that tells me you are not confident in your own theories!



I've managed to lay my hands on a PARALLEL dual battery mod, (an Eleaf iStick) ... I don't have a single battery mod, however this one does run on one and two batteries, so I'll give it a go against itself with one vs. two batteries, and against a couple of newer technology Vaporesso dual battery Gen / Gen S mods with the same tank / build ... Lets see what transpires ... 
Don't hold your breath, as this is going to take a few days

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## Timwis (28/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I've managed to lay my hands on a PARALLEL dual battery mod, (an Eleaf iStick) ... I don't have a single battery mod, however this one does run on one and two batteries, so I'll give it a go against itself with one vs. two batteries, and against a couple of newer technology Vaporesso dual battery Gen / Gen S mods with the same tank / build ... Lets see what transpires ...
> Don't hold your breath, as this is going to take a few days


I will speed it up with a poll, seems you are making it up as you go along lol.

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## X-Calibre786 (28/9/20)

X-Calibre786 said:


> In a regulated mod using 2 batteries in series, the input voltage is doubled. This means that to get the same 30w output, the regulator will only draw half the current. See screenshots below. The only variable changed is the voltage.
> 
> Single Battery at 3.7v
> View attachment 209006
> ...


I would like to point out that this applies to regulated mods only. The input and the output of the regulator circuitry will have differing voltages, currents, resistance, and power. Read more about that at the link provided above.

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## Kuhlkatz (28/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Lets have a look at the circuit below, and assume that the Pulse Width Modulation Circuitry has no losses, and plug in some typical values;
> 
> Lets also assume that we are using a 0.5 Ohm heating coil running at say 15 Watts.
> 
> ...



We are talking regulated mod theory only I take it.
In your example you assume that the PWM output is 'always on'. For PWM this is not true as the duty cycle is a series of switched on full and switched off full cycles where the 'ON' cycle determines how much power is effectively delivered. A 50% duty cycle should equate to roughly 50% of what the battery can provide. It would also mean that max current is not drawn from the battery all of the time, as the coil does not see 'all the power' all the time. It is switched on and off for short periods of time and an 'average' amount of power is spread out based on the duty cycle.
PWM circuits typically supply a lower voltage than the input voltage, so for mods, typically below 4.2v. Using multiple batteries in series means that the total effective voltage at the output can be stepped up as well - 4.2v, 8.4v. 12.6v etc.

Using your example with Ohm's Law to calculate a few things in reverse, we have :
Power = 15w
Resistance = 0.5 ohm
So current through the coil should be 5.477A - check.
Voltage across the coil should be 2.738V - check.

Battery = 3.65V
Resistance = 0.5 ohm
So current should be at 7.3A ? - not check.
Power should be 26.645W ? - not check.

Is the PWM circuit just dissipating 11.645W into heat energy and drawing an extra 1.8A just for switching stuff off and on?
This is likely not the case, or if it was, nobody would use PWM in any application as it does not seem to be very efficient.

The snag here is that it is not just a simple series circuit. Using your example, and a perfect world scenario, let's check it again but at 65 Watts, which we all know a single 18650 mod should be capable of.
To produce 65 Watts across a 0.5 ohm coil, the Ohm's Law calculations would have the voltage across the coil at 5.7v and the current at around 11.4A. But yet we only have a fully charged single battery of 4.2v.

Now we know the battery is definitely at 4.2v and that we are producing 65W of power across the coil. Using Ohm's Law again, this now calculates that the current should be at around 15.476A. Huh?
This suddenly does not equate, as either Ohm's Law has been totally stuffed since inception, or we have some serious Devil's magic happening here.


You cannot measure it as simple as you have, as the input (battery side) and the output (coil side) are not directly connected. There are other discrete components that switch on and off for simple PWM so the current across the coil is an average of the full on / full off duty cycles.
For Buck and Boost circuits there are also discrete components that switch on and off but also store and provide either reduced or increased power to the output in the place of the battery. The switching rate and power gained or lost is just governed by some clever monitoring done on top of the buck or boost to retain the output within the parameters you set via the interface, be it Volts, Watts, or a specific temperature.

For regulated mods, if you assume that the circuitry is 100% efficient, do the calcs for the COIL side separate to that of the BATTERY.
Using what we know of the OUTPUT or coil side:
Power = 15W
Resistance = 0.5 ohm
Current is then 5.477A through the coil
Voltage should be 2.739V across the coil.

Using what we know on the INPUT or battery side:
Power = 15W
Voltage = 3.65V
Current drawn from battery = 4.11A

Obviously this is in a perfect world, so depending on efficiency of anything between 90-95%, you can add the additional 5-10% to the current drawn and actual Power dissipated on the INPUT side of the equation to determine safe limits.

If you can calculate the current drawn from the batteries based on their capacity and the input voltage you can easily prove that dual batteries in a series or parallel configuration will effectively last twice as long as a single battery counterpart. Taking your battery at 3.65v (or 2 at 3.65V) , 0.5ohm coil and 15W as an example:



The actual time may not be 100% accurate as time remaining at 3.3V is still theoretically 33 minutes, which means that from 4.2 volts, you should get around 9-10 minutes of continous vaping till the batteries reach the 3.3V cut-off.
The reduced current draw from using 2 series batteries with a higher input voltage or using 2 parallel batteries providing double the mAH capacity, does support the increased vaping time if you look at the figures.

9-10 Minutes of ~ 2 second puffs = 270 puffs, which seems about right. 540 for a dual battery.
9-10 minutes of ~ 3 second puffs should be around 180. 360 for a dual battery.

So, who's counting puffs that can back this up?

For a 2500 mAH battery, you can theoretically provide 10.5 Watt of power one full hour before the battery goes to 0v. But then we don't use them down that low do we.

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## DougP (28/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I've managed to lay my hands on a PARALLEL dual battery mod, (an Eleaf iStick) ... I don't have a single battery mod, however this one does run on one and two batteries, so I'll give it a go against itself with one vs. two batteries, and against a couple of newer technology Vaporesso dual battery Gen / Gen S mods with the same tank / build ... Lets see what transpires ...
> Don't hold your breath, as this is going to take a few days



Time to sit back and watch
You are about to rewrite the physics formula yourself when you do this exercise. 

Welcome to practical versus theory 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Timwis (28/9/20)

I won't hold my breath for an apology for the couple of patronising comments such as:



Intuthu Kagesi said:


> If you are correct Timwis, then you're about to rewrite a number of Physics formula, and I'm only too keen to find out more



https://www.ecigssa.co.za/single-vs-dual-battery-device-poll.t68839/

One person voted in error which he has explained so if you voted you are the only one out of 12 people at the time of writing this message who doesn't get double the battery life with a dual battery device, would be interesting if you did vote as it shouldn't be included as you have just admitted you don't even have a single battery device to compare!

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## Dela Rey Steyn (28/9/20)

Currently on 400 Puffs. This is waaaaaaaaaay more than I would usually vape on an 18mg liquid. And about as much as I can stomach. Barely made a dent in the battery levels. Going to fire up the single battery Drag X tomorrow and see where the battery lies after 400 puffs.

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## Timwis (28/9/20)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Currently on 400 Puffs. This is waaaaaaaaaay more than I would usually vape on an 18mg liquid. And about as much as I can stomach. Barely made a dent in the battery levels. Going to fire up the single battery Drag X tomorrow and see where the battery lies after 400 puffs.
> View attachment 209034


Probably won't even quite get to 400 lol!

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## Silver (28/9/20)

Timwis said:


> Get a dual battery device and a single battery device and put the same build in both and vape at the same wattage, that's the practical part and if you say you got the same puffs from both you will be the first vaper i have ever met that have found that to be the case we are not just making it up that we get double the vape time we say it because it's the case! I can get all those diagrams and theories within seconds just copying and pasting from the internet but it doesn't effect what happens when i vape!
> 
> See below thanks @X-Calibre786
> 
> ...




In practice I get through about 5-6ml of juice on a single batt 18650 Mod and about 10-12ml of juice on a double batt 18650 mod. Pretty much the same coil, wattage and vaping style. So roughly double the juice throughput.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 3


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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/20)

Kuhlkatz said:


> We are talking regulated mod theory only I take it.
> In your example you assume that the PWM output is 'always on'. For PWM this is not true as the duty cycle is a series of swithed on full and switched off full cycles where the 'ON' cycle determines how much power is effectively delivered. A 50% duty cycle should equate to roughly 50% of what the battery can provide. It would also mean that max current is not drawn from the battery all of the time, as the coil does not see 'all the power' all the time. It is switched on and off for short periods of time and an 'average' amount of power is spread out based on the duty cycle.
> PWM circuits typically supply a lower voltage than the input voltage, so for mods, typically below 4.2v. Using multiple batteries in series means that the total effective voltage at the output can be stepped up as well - 4.2v, 8.4v. 12.6v etc.
> 
> ...



Thank you Kuhlkatz, now that's a plausible answer built on fact that makes sense as apposed posting anecdotal unsupported comments.
In a nutshell, you're saying that the PCM does in fact run at "full power", (obviously less the controlling overhead), and that the output is an effective voltage based on the duty cycle?
I'm intrigued by your comments on buck and boost too ... clearly buck is easy enough, however boost at the currents used for vaping? ... Do you know how this is achieved? or is this just for the processor?

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/20)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Currently on 400 Puffs. This is waaaaaaaaaay more than I would usually vape on an 18mg liquid. And about as much as I can stomach. Barely made a dent in the battery levels. Going to fire up the single battery Drag X tomorrow and see where the battery lies after 400 puffs.
> View attachment 209034



LOL ... That's dedication in the name of research

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kuhlkatz (29/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Thank you Kuhlkatz, now that's a plausible answer built on fact that makes sense as apposed posting anecdotal unsupported comments.
> In a nutshell, you're saying that the PCM does in fact run at "full power", (obviously less the controlling overhead), and that the output is an effective voltage based on the duty cycle?
> I'm intrigued by your comments on buck and boost too ... clearly buck is easy enough, however boost at the currents used for vaping? ... Do you know how this is achieved? or is this just for the processor?



This covers the theory and operation of the simple buck converter : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_converter
And this one the boost converter : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boost_converter

This YT video was already posted elsewhere on the forum, but it offers an easy to understand description of the two via the visuals:


This is obviously heavily simplified compared to all the circuitry that is actually in most mods, but describes how they can effectively step up or step down the voltages based on what we select for the power across the coil.
With dual series batteries effectively providing a usable input voltage range of 8.4V down to 6.6V, there is less need to boost the voltage than on a single battery of 4.2V down to 3.3V.

Lets see if this gets linked or not (yep, it did) - Watch the two below if you have a few minutes for a full lecture.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 2


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## Puff the Magic Dragon (29/9/20)

There is no debate necessary.

Early in this thread I provided Battery Mooch's gospel on this. *Nobody* doubts his knowledge on batteries and vaping. All the issues debated here are clearly explained by Mooch in the video I provided. Hence no debate necessary.

Watch from 10 mins but I strongly recommend that you watch from the beginning.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Raindance (29/9/20)

A regulated mod exchanges volts for amps and vice versa as needed and cell configuration actually has little impact on that part of the equation. Working with a higher input voltage does however reduce the effect of circuitry resistance thereby losing less potential as a result of conductor voltage drop. The input end of the circuit can also be designed to deal with lower current levels which makes it more cost effective and reliable and allows for the use of smaller components.

In short its easier to keep the magic smoke inside the parts when running in series. And in as much as it makes no difference total available amp hours before the circuit wizardry equals total available amp hours at the coil end.

Regards

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Stranger (29/9/20)

Very good write up here.

https://www.zamplebox.com/community/unregulated-parallel-vs-unregulated-series-box-mods

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Dela Rey Steyn (29/9/20)

In an *UNREGULATED* mod, the battery life would be the same between a series cell configuration and a single cell configuration and increase with a parallel cell configuration. 

In a *REGULATED* mod, Dual Batteries, whether Parallel or Series, *WILL* give you more battery life than a single cell mod, *WHEN* using the same Coil and Power/Wattage on either mod.

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## Stranger (29/9/20)

DougP said:


> This is so confusing..
> The question begs then...
> If dual battery mods in series (literally 99% of mods on the market) gives same battery life as a single battery mod then have we as consumers been taken for ride and exploited.
> 
> ...



After further investigation, I concede that you are right and I am wrong on the point of battery boxes being mostly series wired. There must indeed be some seriously dark magic going on for the chips to convert the energy flow the way they are doing. Every thing I know points to the basics, yet these mods are doing the opposite.

The below even contradicts what we have been discussing

*BATTERIES IN SERIES*




Essentially this means your battery terminals connect positive to negative.

The combined voltage of the two vape batteries in this configuration is the sum of the individual batteries. This basically means you’re increasing the voltage of your battery supply when using batteries in series.

However, the current (mAh) and Continuous Discharge Rate (CDR) is that of the single battery.

_*The advantage of this setup is that it provides additional voltage and greater power to the coil, increasing vapor production!*_

*BATTERIES IN PARALLEL*



The opposite of batteries in series, your battery terminals connect positive to positive and negative to negative.

The combined voltage of the two batteries in this configuration is that of the single battery. The current (mAh) and Continuous Discharge Rate (CDR) is the sum of the two batteries.


_*The advantage of this configuration is to enable increased (twice the capacity) current. This will result in the combined battery current lasting twice as long as that of a single battery. In layman’s terms, your vape mod will run for double the time before you need to re-charge the batteries.*_

Furthermore, the CDR of each battery is doubled. This can have two possible advantages:


With two batteries, each having a CDR of 20 Amps, the overall CDR will be 40 amps. This will allow for a lower resistance coil build, enabling higher current to be drawn from the combined batteries.
If your coil build and battery voltage is such that the current drawn from the combined batteries is 20 Amps, you can use two 15 Amp batteries. This means you can use two lower spec batteries to achieve your required CDR value for your vape build.

Reactions: Winner 6


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## Stranger (29/9/20)

So based on the above research, we are right when it comes to *unregulated* mods but wrong when it comes to *regulated.*

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Intuthu Kagesi (29/9/20)

Stranger said:


> So based on the above research, we are right when it comes to *unregulated* mods but wrong when it comes to *regulated.*



Spot on 

I'm grateful for the info ... Thanks everyone 
I posted the statement "*I'm curious as to why the proliferation of Series Dual and Triple Battery Mods, and not Parallel Dual and Triple Battery Mods in the market"*, as I'm busy with an Arduino Nano powered TRIPLE parallel build, that's now about to change to a series triple mod, as that also resolves my need for a separate buck/boost circuit for the processor, (5V required for the processor).

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## DougP (29/9/20)

Okay now that we have sorted this little debate out can we now tell @Dela Rey Steyn to stop chain vaping himself to death to get us a practical demonstration of battery life in his single and dual mods.

The poor guy is gonna get a nic overload.


Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 7


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## Intuthu Kagesi (29/9/20)

DougP said:


> Okay now that we have sorted this little debate out can we now tell @Dela Rey Steyn to stop chain vaping himself to death to get us a practical demonstration of battery life in his single and dual mods.
> 
> The poor guy is gonna get a nic overload.
> 
> ...



Say what you may ... This man is dedicated to a cause!

Reactions: Winner 2 | Funny 2


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## Dela Rey Steyn (29/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Say what you may ... This woman is dedicated to a cause!


Woman?  I better tell SWAMBO she is a lesbian now....

Reactions: Funny 7


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## Intuthu Kagesi (29/9/20)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Woman?  I better tell SWAMBO she is a lesbian now....



Ooooooops  ... Sowwie

Reactions: Funny 2


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## DougP (29/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Say what you may ... This man is dedicated to a cause!


For the love of Gawd then let's not start a thread about how sensitive vibrators can get... Given this mans dedication to the cause I can just imagine what will happen 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Intuthu Kagesi (29/9/20)

DougP said:


> For the love of Gawd then let's not start a thread about how sensitive vibrators can get... Given this mans dedication to the cause I can just imagine what will happen
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk



We can move the debate to parallel vs. series cell vibrators ... speed vs. longevity

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## DougP (29/9/20)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Woman?  I better tell SWAMBO she is a lesbian now....


OLala has Dela Rey Steyn finally come out of the closit. I would have never guessed that transgender operation was very well done 
So you gonna change nick to 
Dela Liscious Samantha 


Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Funny 4


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## DougP (29/9/20)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> We can move the debate to parallel vs. series cell vibrators ... speed vs. longevity


Yes yes great idea
Oh Mr Steyn you care to test for us 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Dela Rey Steyn (29/9/20)

DougP said:


> Yes yes great idea
> Oh Mr Steyn you care to test for us
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk



No need for new tests... there is past data....

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Stranger (29/9/20)

DougP said:


> Okay now that we have sorted this little debate out
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk



This debate is far from over, this is ELECTRICKERY ............... we need answers dammit.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Resistance (29/9/20)

According to me an unregulated series mod wil convert energy from volts instead of Amps
And vise versa for an unregulated parallel mod.
But that's according to me.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Silver (29/9/20)

Kuhlkatz said:


> We are talking regulated mod theory only I take it.
> In your example you assume that the PWM output is 'always on'. For PWM this is not true as the duty cycle is a series of swithed on full and switched off full cycles where the 'ON' cycle determines how much power is effectively delivered. A 50% duty cycle should equate to roughly 50% of what the battery can provide. It would also mean that max current is not drawn from the battery all of the time, as the coil does not see 'all the power' all the time. It is switched on and off for short periods of time and an 'average' amount of power is spread out based on the duty cycle.
> PWM circuits typically supply a lower voltage than the input voltage, so for mods, typically below 4.2v. Using multiple batteries in series means that the total effective voltage at the output can be stepped up as well - 4.2v, 8.4v. 12.6v etc.
> 
> ...



thanks for the detailed response and explanation @Kuhlkatz !!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Puff the Magic Dragon (30/9/20)

DougP said:


> The poor guy is gonna get a nic overload.



Just a slight correction.

We don't recognise descriptions like nic overload.

It is called *doing a Silver.*

For those of you who don't know about this @Silver became infamous for doing this when he was a noob.

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## Dela Rey Steyn (30/9/20)

After reevaluating my experiment parameters. I started a fresh with a lower build on my Rebirth RTA and 3mg Taviro, which from experience I know I can vape on the WHOLE day. 
Drag X:
Started with a fully charged Molicel Battery and reset the puff counter. 
It picked up the atomizer resistance as 0.2ohm






Reached 174 puffs before the battery indicator turned red. 

Argus GT:
Started with a fully charged married set of Molicel Batteries and reset the puff counter. 
It picked up the atomizer resistance as 0.21ohm






Got to a total of 332 puffs before the battery indicators turned red.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 2


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## Stranger (30/9/20)

I think I know how they are doing it.

In the same way that the chip will allow for balanced charging through the USB, I think that they chip is also compensating for a balanced discharge from each cell. This would not work if they were simply stacked like a boom stick, but now makes sense.

I have seen a few comments on mods where the battery indicators on a dual are not discharging at the same rate and when the one is empty, the mod will not fire even if the other one reports full. This then explains that if that function is not working correctly, you will not get the balanced discharge. In effect it separates the batteries then reconnects them drawing only what is needed in terms of W and amps. Push the Volt demand over what the battery is capable of, for example you can't get 5 V from a 3.7 V battery, 4.2 at the most and then the dual batteries will combine to supply the required Volts.

It is just a theory, came to me in a dream last night, just before the two Japanese models.

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## X-Calibre786 (30/9/20)

This thread reminded me of something sort of related that I've wanted to discuss. Should probably start a separate thread though.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Puff the Magic Dragon (30/9/20)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> I better tell SWAMBO she is a lesbian now....



Do you intend to stop vaping if you get pregnant? IMO this would be essential.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Intuthu Kagesi (30/9/20)

Stranger said:


> I think I know how they are doing it.
> 
> In the same way that the chip will allow for balanced charging through the USB, I think that they chip is also compensating for a balanced discharge from each cell. This would not work if they were simply stacked like a boom stick, but now makes sense.
> 
> ...



Were said Japanese models battery powered? ... and if so ... Were they Parallel or Series? 


What I have seen on an oscilloscope is that the full battery voltage, (minus the miniscule voltage drop over the mosfet and a low value resistor that is used for current measurement/ feedback to the processor), is available on the 510 connector ... 
It seems the processor measures the current via voltage drop over the aforementioned resistor, and then adjusts the pulse width. So technically you have much higher voltages and currents at the 510 connector, albeit for short pulses, giving an average voltage / power much lower than the instantaneous values.

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## Stranger (30/9/20)

Nah, they were either petrol or diesel  but they did win a shitload of Paris/Dakar

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 3


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