# To Clone or not to Clone.



## Petrus (18/3/17)

Hi Guys. Luckely it's so late so the actual debate will start in the morning. So I stumbled across the Billet Box clone, it immediately draw my attention as I am aware how difficult it is to lay your hands on a Authentic, and I went into Google land and find some interesting information. Almost all the Chinese vendors are sold out as I would expected, but geeez I just love reading the reviews. O yes there is a lot of 5 stars, for what? You guess right, for actually owing a Billet Box. Then the guys started to put it through the tests, and guess what? Then I start to see the 1 and 2 star ratings beginning to take the win. What was the problems they encountered? Leaks from the start, misfires, doors that rattle ohhhh and don't forget before you insert the battery you must bend the negative post a little bit, otherwise you might torn your battery wrap!!!! Man was I shocked! Now I went over to the actual Hellfire site and start reading reviews of customers who own the Authentic.... like our skipper @Rob Fisher, and I read just the opposite. No surprise for me. So I know money is king and the statement of " I am going to buy the clone and then I will decide if I am going to pay 200 dollars for an authentic " My friends then, you will never buy the authentic, trust me. If I had a bad experience with a device, I won't touch it again. So yes, my argument: To Clone or not to Clone. Good Night.

Reactions: Like 6 | Winner 1 | Informative 1


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## RayDeny (18/3/17)

My vaping as with a lot of people started off with clones, through this my experience has shown me that clones are simply inferior products and as such I am busy working out all the clones I have and will not purchase another clone.

I'm a firm believer as with my tools, you buy once. I buy Snap-on tools cause they are quality and will last me a life time ,I place the same thought process on my vape gear as with anything. 

You could also go the high road and say you would rather support the OEM but for me it's all about the quality of the product.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## incredible_hullk (18/3/17)

I believe in quality... yes I can buy a clone for half the price but I can bet my bottom dollar it's not gonna last even half the life span

My motto is buy authentic and enjoy the experience...its like buying a pirate movie...will never be the same!

I will buy a clone to test flavour of the product and then buy the real deal

I have only bought 2 clones - goon and ol16...within a week I bought authentic cos I loved them


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## zadiac (18/3/17)

I buy clones to try out new products. If it's worth it, then I'll buy authentic. I don't want to spend R1500 on an atty and then find I don't like it. So, to start out with, clones are fine and there are some good ones out there. I have a Hastur V2 clone and pretty happy with it. I might not even buy the authentic. I'll decide when I've used it a little bit longer.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Can relate 1


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## Silver (18/3/17)

Thanks for posting this @Petrus

For me I had quite a bad experience with a clone early on in my vaping journey. I had a clone of a Kayfun 3. I spent so much time figuring it out and what not but in the end I just could not prevent leaks. I am embarrassed at the time I spent trying to get it to work perfectly. It even dumped a tankful of Bowdens Mate in my car seat after a vape meet on the way home. I was so upset that I retired it and vowed never to touch a Kayfun again, ever.

I didnt really understand clones vs authentics then. It was around early 2014. All i knew was that anything made that was called Kayfun with a logo of a SVM somewhere on it was crap.

Then about a year later i discovered unbelievable flavour on a Lemo1. Its chimney section is similar to the Kayfun. I started doing more research and tried to understand what was going on.

I believe my bad Kayfun clone experience altered my vape journey for quite a long time. Only recently have I realised what must have happened.

So i am pleased to say i finally got a KF5 and V3 mini authentic because Throat Punch got them in. I have to still try them. I hope they dont leak. Lol

But the point is that clones entirely destroyed my impression of the Kayfun for a long time. What a pity for what seems to be a very solid and much loved "iconic" piece of vape gear.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Normz (18/3/17)

I started my 'enthusiast' journey on clones, and it really wasn't a great experience and slowly working out the clones from my collection. The differences may be subtle, but they are there and the passion for the product is just not there with a clone

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ash (18/3/17)

Petrus said:


> Hi Guys. Luckely it's so late so the actual debate will start in the morning. So I stumbled across the Billet Box clone, it immediately draw my attention as I am aware how difficult it is to lay your hands on a Authentic, and I went into Google land and find some interesting information. Almost all the Chinese vendors are sold out as I would expected, but geeez I just love reading the reviews. O yes there is a lot of 5 stars, for what? You guess right, for actually owing a Billet Box. Then the guys started to put it through the tests, and guess what? Then I start to see the 1 and 2 star ratings beginning to take the win. What was the problems they encountered? Leaks from the start, misfires, doors that rattle ohhhh and don't forget before you insert the battery you must bend the negative post a little bit, otherwise you might torn your battery wrap!!!! Man was I shocked! Now I went over to the actual Hellfire site and start reading reviews of customers who own the Authentic.... like our skipper @Rob Fisher, and I read just the opposite. No surprise for me. So I know money is king and the statement of " I am going to buy the clone and then I will decide if I am going to pay 200 dollars for an authentic " My friends then, you will never buy the authentic, trust me. If I had a bad experience with a device, I won't touch it again. So yes, my argument: To Clone or not to Clone. Good Night.



I personally own a authentic billet box with another on its way, I can tell you this much. NOT 1 ISSUE. Its true its very very hard to get 1, but there is a reason for it. Quality, like most HE stuff, that's what you are paying for. Clones are for the people who want 1 and no matter how hard they try cannot get the authentic cos it sells out in a matter minutes. Frustrations come in and wham they buy the clone. While there some positive reviews of the clone there will be just as many negatives. Yes you are still paying a premium for a clone (Not as much for the authentic) but at the end of the day you will face some issues. And these issues are what's going to put you off the product. I have made this mistakes many times with other clones, Mods & Tanks, & That is why I from the day I got my skyline I swore I would never buy another clone again. I rather buy authentic or not have it all.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Raindance (18/3/17)

Adopting a cloners mindset, I would believe that the main goal of developing a clone is to make something that looks the same as an original. Functioning comes a rather lonely second if this is your goal. So for something rather simplistic such as a glass tank section or simple atty like the Subtank Mini, the clone could be indistinguishable from the original in both looks and function. 
More complex items are a different case however. Items such as the example Billet box or the latest range of more advanced atomizers contain little design and build details which a cloner would overlook and just not bother with. It are these little details that give the authentic item their unique characteristics. Even if not containing any noticeable flaws, these items will never perform as the original.
In conclusion, if one is of a Top Billing mindset and looks/impressions are all that matters, clones are great. However, for the function over form crowd, original is the only way to go.

Regards

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Daniel (18/3/17)

I get the quality of authentic mods or systems (Billet Box) vs Clones , you want something that lasts. I still own my first Reo and she's purring along nicely (with a clone on top ). 

RD(T)A's not so much , it's a piece of cylindrical metal shaped and drilled device etc to create a certain airflow. Ja blah blah all the 'research' that goes into it , whatever the original is probably just a 'clone' of another authentic. I am quite happy with my SXK Hadaly clones , so much in fact I have another two on the way (for 1/8th of the price of an authentic). Other clones (the OL16's come to mind) is a hit and miss , my Velocity V3 clone (ALL the negative posts are just a tad higher than the positive so the topcap doesn't quite sit flush. Does it bother me yes , will I buy an authentic no....). I still want to challenge anyone to do the blindfold flavor test between a clone and an authentic , video it and see if the difference can be distinguished (I'm still waiting on someone to take me up  ) 

P.S for those trolls , I do own plenty authentic gear so by no means do I condone Cloners or defend them , it's a matter of economics for me.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1


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## William Vermaak (18/3/17)

I think that the big thing is to remember it's a clone. I have bought clone tanks and RDAs to test them out. If you buy a clone you have to know that there's a big chance they will leak and the build quality will not be top notch. 

It is because of the clones that I bought my authentic TM squared and Aria Sleeper.

Another plus is when you buy the authentic you've got some additional spares as well 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Raindance (18/3/17)

Daniel said:


> I get the quality of authentic mods or systems (Billet Box) vs Clones , you want something that lasts. I still own my first Reo and she's purring along nicely (with a clone on top ).
> 
> RD(T)A's not so much , it's a piece of cylindrical metal shaped and drilled device etc to create a certain airflow. Ja blah blah all the 'research' that goes into it , whatever the original is probably just a 'clone' of another authentic. I am quite happy with my SXK Hadaly clones , so much in fact I have another two on the way (for 1/8th of the price of an authentic). Other clones (the OL16's come to mind) is a hit and miss , my Velocity V3 clone (ALL the negative posts are just a tad higher than the positive so the topcap doesn't quite sit flush. Does it bother me yes , will I buy an authentic no....). I still want to challenge anyone to do the blindfold flavor test between a clone and an authentic , video it and see if the difference can be distinguished (I'm still waiting on someone to take me up  )
> 
> P.S for those trolls , I do own plenty authentic gear so by no means do I condone Cloners or defend them , it's a matter of economics for me.


@Daniel, totally agree with you that there are good clones out there. It's just that you only find out that a clone is good by purchasing it. If the result is negative the money was wasted and no saving but rather a loss occurred. Also the more complex the cloned original item, the more likely the clone will be "imperfect". Its a matter of probabilities and risks to me.

Regards


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## Deckie (18/3/17)

There's good clones & bad clones ...... roll the dice, life's a gamble. I've bought authentics the elite raved about - what load of crap they turned out to be, even the elite went quiet & next you know they are raving & pushing something else, so the dance floor goes round & round - people can be sheep - we just need the right sheep dog. I've got clones that do it for me & authentics that leak - expensive HE tanks for that matter. Today one mod/tank is the bees knees, then 1 of the gurus has a problem with it & bam, in 1 swift hissy fit & crying, they flip and ruin it for the rest & then, because you own one, you're an idiot. But this industry is driven 100% by hype and being fast evolving industry vaping is, clones will always be there & they will always serve their purpose.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 6


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## Petrus (18/3/17)

Ash said:


> I personally own a authentic billet box with another on its way, I can tell you this much. NOT 1 ISSUE. Its true its very very hard to get 1, but there is a reason for it. Quality, like most HE stuff, that's what you are paying for. Clones are for the people who want 1 and no matter how hard they try cannot get the authentic cos it sells out in a matter minutes. Frustrations come in and wham they buy the clone. While there some positive reviews of the clone there will be just as many negatives. Yes you are still paying a premium for a clone (Not as much for the authentic) but at the end of the day you will face some issues. And these issues are what's going to put you off the product. I have made this mistakes many times with other clones, Mods & Tanks, & That is why I from the day I got my skyline I swore I would never buy another clone again. I rather buy authentic or not have it all.


Exactly my point.


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## Clouds4Days (18/3/17)

Daniel said:


> I get the quality of authentic mods or systems (Billet Box) vs Clones , you want something that lasts. I still own my first Reo and she's purring along nicely (with a clone on top ).
> 
> RD(T)A's not so much , it's a piece of cylindrical metal shaped and drilled device etc to create a certain airflow. Ja blah blah all the 'research' that goes into it , whatever the original is probably just a 'clone' of another authentic. I am quite happy with my SXK Hadaly clones , so much in fact I have another two on the way (for 1/8th of the price of an authentic). Other clones (the OL16's come to mind) is a hit and miss , my Velocity V3 clone (ALL the negative posts are just a tad higher than the positive so the topcap doesn't quite sit flush. Does it bother me yes , will I buy an authentic no....). I still want to challenge anyone to do the blindfold flavor test between a clone and an authentic , video it and see if the difference can be distinguished (I'm still waiting on someone to take me up  )
> 
> P.S for those trolls , I do own plenty authentic gear so by no means do I condone Cloners or defend them , it's a matter of economics for me.



@Daniel here is a blind test for you and a side by side comparison on a authentic Kayfun v5 and a sxk Kayfun V5 .

I relly love this video and feel its one of the most in depth honest reviews i have ever seen. Enjoy...

Reactions: Like 4 | Dislike 1


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## Highlander (18/3/17)

A


Clouds4Days said:


> @Daniel here is a blind test for you and a side by side comparison on a authentic Kayfun v5 and a sxk Kayfun V5 .
> 
> I relly love this video and feel its one of the most in depth honest reviews i have ever seen. Enjoy...



Apart from the swearing....


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## Effjh (18/3/17)

Highlander said:


> A
> 
> Apart from the swearing....

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Feliks Karp (18/3/17)

So watching the video posted above, it's pretty evident that some clones strive to actually fool people in to believing they are the real deal, not just to provide a pirate part. With that in mind, how do people feel about the guys who re-wrap batteries to imitate real brands?


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## Raindance (18/3/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> So watching the video posted above, it's pretty evident that some clones strive to actually fool people in to believing they are the real deal, not just to provide a pirate part. With that in mind, how do people feel about the guys who re-wrap batteries to imitate real brands?


Due to the danger, they should be drawn and quartered.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## DoubleD (18/3/17)

Deckie said:


> There's good clones & bad clones ...... roll the dice, life's a gamble. I've bought authentics the elite raved about - what load of crap they turned out to be, even the elite went quiet & next you know they are raving & pushing something else, so the dance floor goes round & round - people can be sheep - we just need the right sheep dog. I've got clones that do it for me & authentics that leak - expensive HE tanks for that matter. Today one mod/tank is the bees knees, then 1 of the gurus has a problem with it & bam, in 1 swift hissy fit & crying, they flipped and ruin it for the rest &then, because you own one, you're an idiot. But this industry is driven 100% by hype and being fast evolving industry vaping is, clones will always be there & they will always serve their purpose.




I can agree to an extend, I too buy clones but I also look real hard for the decent ones. Some clones are awesome, most aren't. As for crap authentics, I have never had one yet, all the authentic gear I've bought are epic in every way but then again, I only have a few authentics lol I dont do RTAs, I'm not the kind a guy to fiddle with fragile things so tanks are totally out of the question for me. I tend to stick to mechs and RDAs.

On a side note: I find that some people dont understand what they need versus what they want, for instance: Guy buys mech mod but loves big ass clapton coils, then bitches about "crappy mech performance", this guy is an utter tool in my eyes. Or the guy that buys a 14mm bf atty and wants to run big ass exotic coils in it and then says stupid shit like, "this thing is crap, needs more airflow" -- no you're stupid, your brain needs more airflow -_-

Reactions: Agree 5 | Winner 1 | Funny 12


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## Silver (18/3/17)

Lol @DoubleD - that chirp - "your brain needs more airflow"
You crack me up....

I hear you though

Reactions: Funny 4 | Can relate 1


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## Clouds4Days (18/3/17)

DoubleD said:


> I can agree to an extend, I too buy clones but I also look real hard for the decent ones. Some clones are awesome, most aren't. As for crap authentics, I have never had one yet, all the authentic gear I've bought are epic in every way but then again, I only have a few authentics lol I dont do RTAs, I'm not the kind a guy to fiddle with fragile things so tanks are totally out of the question for me. I tend to stick to mechs and RDAs.
> 
> On a side note: I find that some people dont understand what they need versus what they want, for instance: Guy buys mech mod but loves big ass clapton coils, then bitches about "crappy mech performance", this guy is an utter tool in my eyes. Or the guy that buys a 14mm bf atty and wants to run big ass exotic coils in it and then says stupid shit like, "this thing is crap, needs more airflow" -- no you're stupid, your brain needs more airflow -_-



To the point... Nice brother....
You are 100% right brother.
Since ive gotten into squonking i now realise what ive been missing out on.

The best flavour in a convenient dripping (squonking) bottle.
Its absolutely amazing. My tube mechs are just a side attraction now.
I now realise all i need in my vaping life is one or two regulated mods (one with a rta for really lazy moments and one with a rda for sampling juice) and then a shyt load of sqonking mechs or squonking regulated boxes.

So far im enjoying squonk mechs because of knowing the bugger is gonna last me a lifetime.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Can relate 1


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## kev mac (18/3/17)

Petrus said:


> Hi Guys. Luckely it's so late so the actual debate will start in the morning. So I stumbled across the Billet Box clone, it immediately draw my attention as I am aware how difficult it is to lay your hands on a Authentic, and I went into Google land and find some interesting information. Almost all the Chinese vendors are sold out as I would expected, but geeez I just love reading the reviews. O yes there is a lot of 5 stars, for what? You guess right, for actually owing a Billet Box. Then the guys started to put it through the tests, and guess what? Then I start to see the 1 and 2 star ratings beginning to take the win. What was the problems they encountered? Leaks from the start, misfires, doors that rattle ohhhh and don't forget before you insert the battery you must bend the negative post a little bit, otherwise you might torn your battery wrap!!!! Man was I shocked! Now I went over to the actual Hellfire site and start reading reviews of customers who own the Authentic.... like our skipper @Rob Fisher, and I read just the opposite. No surprise for me. So I know money is king and the statement of " I am going to buy the clone and then I will decide if I am going to pay 200 dollars for an authentic " My friends then, you will never buy the authentic, trust me. If I had a bad experience with a device, I won't touch it again. So yes, my argument: To Clone or not to Clone. Good Night.


This topic will always draw controversy.My take is while I have more than a few clones almost all are of the RDA,RTA type. I have some that rival the authentic at a fraction of the price and some that are complete shit.If possible l try to buy 1:1 clones.Ihave only bought one mod clone and l wouldn't get anymore as I fail to see much quality in mod clones and IMO you get what you pay for with them.For example I watched some reviews on SX mini M class clones recently and though the mod was only 40 or 50 or so bucks they sort of looked similar but any other resemblance ended there.They didn't even support temperature control and could not be upgraded or modified on line.You would be better off spending that money on a Segeli or IPV 4you etc.and you'd get way more for your money plus some kind of warranty.

Reactions: Like 4


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## kev mac (18/3/17)

Clouds4Days said:


> @Daniel here is a blind test for you and a side by side comparison on a authentic Kayfun v5 and a sxk Kayfun V5 .
> 
> I relly love this video and feel its one of the most in depth honest reviews i have ever seen. Enjoy...



I love the Geek Vape guy ,get a kick out of his accent and humor plus he provides a service by comparisons such as this one.But after watching this video l can't justify the price difference.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Can relate 1


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## kelly22 (18/3/17)

Il start by saying iv been a vaper since early 2014. Kicked off with the china mall. Ego setup and some juice that came with it,i quickly. Needed more clouds and bought a mvp itazte from a forum member ,and then a hana modz clone 50 w not long after which was an amazing mod even compared to todays mods ,its style and versatility n ease of use was great until i craved a mech,then again it was a clone smpl copper which still serves me well as im typing this ,i understand the thing about supporting the original manufact9 but im disable and dont work bkz of my disability ,clones have afforded me the opportunity to experience many vape products i may have otherwise not been able to afford,so yes i will continue to support these companies because of this 

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 2


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## RichJB (18/3/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> With that in mind, how do people feel about the guys who re-wrap batteries to imitate real brands?



How would people feel about cheap rewrapped counterfeit batteries if they were as close to the performance of the original as the SXK is to the Kayfun5 in Geekay's review? If I had the choice of buying an original LG choc (15A 3000mAh 300 recharge cycles) for R180, or a counterfeit LG choc (14.8A 2950mAh 280 recharge cycles) for R60, which would I buy? My answer will make me blush so I plead the Fifth. It wouldn't be fair on the original battery developers like LG, Sony and Samsung. But will people care?

Of course, it's an incomplete analogy because most of the cost in batteries goes towards manufacturing, a very small % is for R&D. Original atty manufacturers will claim quite large R&D costs, which inflates the retail cost. The difference in price between a Kayfun5 and an SXK is certainly not warranted by any difference in materials or manufacturing costs.

It's a tough issue that extends into many other sectors. if GlaxoSmithKline develop a cancer treatment for R250k, with a huge chunk of that being R&D costs to develop the drug, should other companies be forbidden from developing generics that are much cheaper? On the one hand, companies that do essential R&D must be compensated for it. On the other, we don't want medicines or pharmaceutical products to be the preserve of the wealthy. 

One might claim that vaping isn't quite as directly essential as medicines. But if we take the view that vaping is a miracle technology that can save a billion lives, is there not an imperative to make it as affordable as possible? And thence the same justification to allow clone atties as there is to allow clone "generics" in medicine? I don't have the answers to that. Just putting it out there for folks to consider.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 2 | Winner 4 | Informative 1 | Useful 1


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## Silver (18/3/17)

RichJB said:


> How would people feel about cheap rewrapped counterfeit batteries if they were as close to the performance of the original as the SXK is to the Kayfun5 in Geekay's review? If I had the choice of buying an original LG choc (15A 3000mAh 300 recharge cycles) for R180, or a counterfeit LG choc (14.8A 2950mAh 280 recharge cycles) for R60, which would I buy? My answer will make me blush so I plead the Fifth. It wouldn't be fair on the original battery developers like LG, Sony and Samsung. But will people care?
> 
> Of course, it's an incomplete analogy because most of the cost in batteries goes towards manufacturing, a very small % is for R&D. Original atty manufacturers will claim quite large R&D costs, which inflates the retail cost. The difference in price between a Kayfun5 and an SXK is certainly not warranted by any difference in materials or manufacturing costs.
> 
> ...



Hi @RichJB - i do agree that affordable vape gear is very important to make vaping more accessible

Its just that when cloners clone something including the logo on it and sell it just like that then for me that is just wrong. 

Another comment - I am no pharma expert but I thought generic alternatives become available only after patent protections on the OEM expire?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Effjh (18/3/17)

RichJB said:


> How would people feel about cheap rewrapped counterfeit batteries if they were as close to the performance of the original as the SXK is to the Kayfun5 in Geekay's review? If I had the choice of buying an original LG choc (15A 3000mAh 300 recharge cycles) for R180, or a counterfeit LG choc (14.8A 2950mAh 280 recharge cycles) for R60, which would I buy? My answer will make me blush so I plead the Fifth. It wouldn't be fair on the original battery developers like LG, Sony and Samsung. But will people care?
> 
> Of course, it's an incomplete analogy because most of the cost in batteries goes towards manufacturing, a very small % is for R&D. Original atty manufacturers will claim quite large R&D costs, which inflates the retail cost. The difference in price between a Kayfun5 and an SXK is certainly not warranted by any difference in materials or manufacturing costs.
> 
> ...



Very thought provoking ideas there @RichJB. At the end of the day, as ex smokers we all vape to stay of the stinkies.. and if a clone affords you the ability to stay smoke free/healthier.. I guess making the comparison between clones and generic medicine could be somewhat valid.


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## Silver (18/3/17)

Silver said:


> Hi @RichJB - i do agree that affordable vape gear is very important to make vaping more accessible
> 
> Its just that when cloners clone something including the logo on it and sell it just like that then for me that is just wrong.
> 
> Another comment - I am no pharma expert but I thought generic alternatives become available only after patent protections on the OEM expire?



And just another comment as a follow on from the last sentence in my above quoted post

Consider what would happen if there were no patent protections granted to the pharma companies

Do you think the generic producers would be advancing the technological innovations in medicine like we have seen in the past?

I very much doubt it

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RichJB (18/3/17)

@Silver, I can't answer the generics patent question as I have little insight in this field, I just know that ethically it's a debate in the pharma industry. You make a valid point about what would happen if there was no R&D in medicine and everybody made generics. But then the other side of the argument is that if every company was an R&D giant with no generics, medicine wouldn't be affordable for the poor. Trying to tread a middle line that accommodates both viewpoints is tricky. 

You raise an intriguing point about duplicating the packaging and this, for me, is a whole issue in itself. What is most acceptable (or least unacceptable) for clone companies to do:
1) Copy the packaging exactly, make absolutely no bones that they are stealing the original company's idea without claiming any original thought, but then perhaps mislead vapers into thinking they're buying an original. Of course, by using the original company's packaging, they are indirectly helping to raise awareness of that brand. And if users like the clone, they're in no doubt as to what to buy if they want the authentic.
2) Make it obvious that they have stolen the design and idea, put enough clues in the packaging to let people know it's a different (but copied) product, or
3) Steal the idea anyway but make it look like it's an independently designed product?

My sense is that 2 is best. It's honest enough to admit that the idea is stolen and also honest enough to not make the buyer think he's getting an original. 

Then, if we bump the concept down a level from complete atties to atty components, what should we conclude about multiple atty manufacturers copying the Velocity or Goon decks? Should they have to ask permission from Velocity or Goon? What about coil types that are innovated by squidoode or others but then copied by commercial coil builders? 

And then if we go broader into patents, there is the elephant in the room that Hon Lik's original patent for vaporiser technology was bought by a big tobacco company. I'm not an expert in patents but I think it's possible that at least some vape gear products (or types) might theoretically need permission or licensing from the patent holder. If we want to be absolutely above board where everybody does the right thing, do we want a situation where vaping companies might have to pay big tobacco as the patent holder for the vaporiser technology we use? Again, I'm not a legal expert, I might be talking total rubbish. I'm just saying there are many aspects to this, it's a veritable minefield.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Effjh (18/3/17)

I am not ashamed to say I own quite a few clones and enjoy them all. saying that, I have to agree with you there @Silver.. copying the packaging/labels and logos is not really cool and leaves me with a moral dilemma. The other point you made is also 100% true, without the original creators the innovation of these great products would cease to exist.

The problem for me personally, is that I view the pricing of some of the 'higher end' authentic atties to be exorbitant regardless of R&D cost. I hate being ripped off and often vote with my wallet. That is why I don't support DSTV and don't get my internet through Mweb, I support whoever can give me the best value for money. 

Instead of bashing the cloners, what if the authentic manufacturers took them out of the equation completely by providing their products at a more reasonable price. To justify the cost of some of the high end gear, you would expect it to be the best damn piece of gear you will ever own, this is very rarely the case. Just an idea, but if manufacturers stop overpricing gear we might see the clone market completely go out of business. I'd prefer that over the current status quo. 

All said and done, I vape to stay off the cigs. I have no loyalty to any company, my loyalty lies with only my self and my well being. I will support anyone who will make that goal as affordable as possible to me.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Feliks Karp (18/3/17)

Silver said:


> Hi @RichJB - i do agree that affordable vape gear is very important to make vaping more accessible
> 
> Its just that when cloners clone something including the logo on it and sell it just like that then for me that is just wrong.
> 
> Another comment - I am no pharma expert but I thought generic alternatives become available only after patent protections on the OEM expire?



Another important note to mention is that a generic needs to bio-equivalent to its original, which means alot of the time they are analogue in nature or differing in a minor way to the original. I actually believe it would be more accurate to relate the rise of the "velocity-style" deck in many name brand atomizers to generic medicines rather than 1:1 clones. 

However I don't want to end up derailing this thread in to a big-pharma debate, or one like the juice thread, my original question was actually meant in a ( admittedly vague) way to question the motives of cloners, and whether or not by supporting them we encourage an entire culture of rip-offs? I don't really agree that clones make vaping cheaper, they make "name brands" cheaper, and with the reports now and then of faulty fittings I need to question where else they are cutting corners, maybe even fake insulators (which make mech use inherently unsafe)? 

I would however argue that expropriating technology in to a cheaper device like such as those that copy decks does actually make vaping cheaper, and actually leads to better technology development, we've seen a few companies just in the last year who started out in murky clone areas and turned in to making their own original (and affordable) atomizers, so while this is dubious, I do see the positive here, even if there is an overlap between the two.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Silver (18/3/17)

Thats why i love your posts @RichJB !
So much food for thought and so much to analyse and discuss

Lets tackle some of it

On the issue of the pharmas getting patent protection to develop new innovations versus the generic producers making it more affordable - I do agree with you that a good balance is needed. I was under the impression that the balance has been operating for some time with patents for a certain period being upheld to help incentivise the OEM to continue innovating. Maybe someone closer to that field can comment on this.

Now onto vaping

I hear you about the cloners making it cheaper etc - and i like your three options you put forward. I do agree that option 2) seems the best when presented as you have - but I still think its wrong to copy something so blatantly and sell it. Irrespective of the laws or patents or lack thereof behind it. I am not saying it doesnt have benefits - of course it does (ability to try something cheaper, potentially markets the authentic and may make it more popular) - but it also has negatives for the original brand if its a badly made clone and we have seen lots of those.

It is a very difficult area because clones are typically much more affordable and can give a good vape experience if they are well made.

Just something inside me makes me feel uncomfortable when someone's work is copied/stolen and sold as an identical replica, letter for letter, including the logo without any qualms or conscience. That to me is wrong. I know its hard to have a good solution to this and i know its not easy to police or even worth policing. But i just think its not right.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB (18/3/17)

Silver said:


> But i just think its not right.



Yes, I am fundamentally in agreement with that. One thing I also wanted to raise, which isn't often addressed in clone discussions: a common defence of clones is "the original manufacturer isn't losing a sale because the clone buyer isn't in their market". That is certainly true much of the time, and it applies to juice clones as well. I don't vape Cuttwood juice so if a DIYer comes up with a clone of a Cuttwood juice, Cuttwood aren't losing a sale by me mixing it. Equally, I'm never going to buy a Velocity dripper because I won't pay R1500 for a dripper. So Dino Ferrari didn't lose a sale by me buying a Tobeco clone.

However... it doesn't end there. If I couldn't buy a Velocity clone and if I wouldn't buy an original Velocity, then what would I buy? Probably a Geekvape or Wotofo or Jay-bo dripper, an authentic but at the budget end of the spectrum. So Geekvape or Wotofo or Jay-bo could argue that clones are hurting their sales. They are doing original designs very affordably, yet they are being punished by clone companies ripping off HE gear. I don't feel bad for Dino Ferrari because I bought a Velocity clone. But I should feel bad for Geekvape et al. Because I bought a clone product instead of buying their very reasonable and original product. I can't counter that argument. So if Jay-bo pops in here and asks for me, tune him you haven't seen me in weeks.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## Silver (18/3/17)

Effjh said:


> I am not ashamed to say I own quite a few clones and enjoy them all. saying that, I have to agree with you there @Silver.. copying the packaging/labels and logos is not really cool and leaves me with a moral dilemma. The other point you made is also 100% true, without the original creators the innovation of these great products would cease to exist.
> 
> The problem for me personally, is that I view the pricing of some of the 'higher end' authentic atties to be exorbitant regardless of R&D cost. I hate being ripped off and often vote with my wallet. That is why I don't support DSTV and don't get my internet through Mweb, I support whoever can give me the best value for money.
> 
> ...



You make very good points there @Effjh 

I do agree that some of the higher end authentics do _seem_ over priced. But then again, no one is forcing any of us to buy them and they are not the only products one can get to get a good vape experience. I am a great example of that. i absolutely LOVE the vape I am getting off my fairly "low end" gear - by tweaking the setup and the juice to my taste. 

As to the idea of these high end manufacturers lowering their prices to take the cloners out of business, i doubt that would happen even though that would be so cool. I think their business model is different. I suspect its based on lower volumes and higher prices/margins - although i dont know for sure.

I just appreciate the effort and passion that folk put into their products. And that also applies locally!

Reactions: Like 3


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## Raindance (18/3/17)

Silver said:


> Thats why i love your posts @RichJB !
> So much food for thought and so much to analyse and discuss
> 
> Lets tackle some of it
> ...


One issue not raised is that original manufacturers take all the risk. It is ok to manufacture cheap if what you manufacture is a proven marketplace success. However to bring a product to market without that assurance is a different case. One must consider the principle that some of the costs a manufacturer has to recover from a market place success needs to cover the cost of products they developed but were never a success.

The problem with cloning is that it removes the incentive for manufacturers to actually spend on R&D. So it is not only an ethical question but also has direct consequences to the consumer in that failure costs now need to be recovered from a smaller number of sales resulting in higher retail prices. Its a self perpetuating cycle of cause and effect.

@RichJB , no need to be embarrassed or take the fifth, I would also take the clone battery. So please do not take the above perspective as me trying to make some sort of statement of moral superiority. Money talks a language we all understand.

Regards

Reactions: Like 6


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## Feliks Karp (18/3/17)

RichJB said:


> But I should feel bad for Geekvape et al. Because I bought a clone product instead of buying their very reasonable and original product. I can't counter that argument.



I think that's where we as a community should come in. It's like getting your first car, and while HE car x is a beautiful beast, at 19 you really only need the basic safety features and sensible fuel consumption of ME car y (not using direct model comparisons as I know how that ends up in this place  ).


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## Daniel (18/3/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> I think that's where we as a community should come in. It's like getting your first car, and while HE car x is a beautiful beast, at 19 you really only need the basic safety features and sensible fuel consumption of ME car y (not using direct model comparisons as I know how that ends up in this place  ).


Come on at 19 you buy the hottest kokkerot jelopi you can get your hands on mags and all.... 

Personally I think it's the vaping companies that coach us into wanting the latest and greatest. 

If I knew what I know now I would have just saved my money and bought a ton of Pico Squeezas and good clones.....more money left for juices...

Reactions: Like 1


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## kelly22 (19/3/17)

I am currently. On treatment with. A generic cancer drug. Too lol 

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## kelly22 (19/3/17)

I think iwe are letting this thread run away ,lets step back and think of clones and generics as a means for ppl who cannot afford it to have acess to the closest possible example of the authentic ,whether it b vape gear or drugs iv been on both.

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## Clouds4Days (19/3/17)

So all this clone vs authentic talk and me wanting to get a authentic Kayfun V5 come month end because i will always try buy authentic if i can. (I only have one clone in my arsenal a o-atty and thats cause a authentic costs around $150) 

But this o-atty is one hell of a RDA and i hope during the year i can get myself a authentic cause it is that good.

But back to the Kayfun v5, so i remebered a buddy of mine has the sxk clone so i borrowed it from him this evening to try out.

The quality of this clone is really good as per the review i put up earlier, but i just found out the Kayfun v5 is not for me as the draw is slightly too tight for my liking so thanks to a good clone i just saved myself 2k.

In this instance a clone was beneficial to helping me make a choice and even if i had paid for the clone it would have only cost me around R350 which i could sell and probably only loose R100 where as i would have to sell my authentic i would probably loose over R300.

So this all left me now thinking what RTA should i start looking at now since the kayfun is no longer in my future.

And ive pulled my aromamiser v1 out of retirement.
Still for me one of the best RDTA around with bottom airflow.
This tank has never leaked and building and wicking on it is such a breaze.

So for now im happy using the aromamiser again, i actually forgot what a freaking good vape she gives.

Reactions: Like 2 | Can relate 1


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## Effjh (19/3/17)

Clouds4Days said:


> So all this clone vs authentic talk and me wanting to get a authentic Kayfun V5 come month end because i will always try buy authentic if i can. (I only have one clone in my arsenal a o-atty and thats cause a authentic costs around $150)
> 
> But this o-atty is one hell of a RDA and i hope during the year i can get myself a authentic cause it is that good.
> 
> ...



Fired up my aromamizer v1 again as well earlier this week and agree completely, totally forgot what a great flavour tank she is. Side airflow straight to coils with a dual vertical build. 

As a side note, I prefer the tighter draw the KF5 offers. Since I started DIY and focusing more on flavour I found myself gravitate more towards tight airflow single coil set ups as I find more airflow = less flavour.

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## Petrus (19/3/17)

My story of clone vs. Authentic? I owe about 6 authentic OL16 atty's and love them, so a couple of months back I ordered some assecories from Fasttech to see what you guys mean by slowmail, so I pulled the trigger on two OL16 clones based on reviews that looked quite good. Now for the fun part. I paid extra for EMS, wow lucky for me I waited 3 months for my order!! When I received my order I was quite impressed with the atty's, cleaned it and make my normal 1.5 mm dual coil build. Luckely I tested it in my ohm reader. Both of mine made a short at the top cap! I was so pissed!! I took the topcaps of an authentic and everything worked just fine. So my story ends buy paying 18 dollars for more spares: 8 grub screws and 8 O rings.

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## Raindance (19/3/17)

Time for a roundup. Firstly thanks @Petrus for giving us all something to fuss about and adding some diversity to our weekend. By the way brother, don't you ever sleep? Just checking some time-stamps...

Right, we seem to have identified three different types of clones.

1. The "exact" copy which may have been developed with he intention to mislead the consumer into thinking they are purchasing the real deal. (LG battery example)
2. The "everybody knows its a knock off" copy which just blatantly chooses to compete with the original for market share based on price. Within this category the level comparability with the original can range from exact to not at all.
3. Generics. Hard to define this term as it relates to vaping but I would risk saying the reproduction of one brands ideas within another brands products. ( so many RDTA and GTA tanks all being technically virtually the same with only some aesthetic differences)

We also determined that most of us (if not all) are not immune to the allure of a bargain. At the same time we are also aware of the risks involved as well as the moral questions surrounding the issue.

Now what are we going to do with this knowledge?

Regards

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## Rob Fisher (19/3/17)

I promised myself I would stay out of this thread... but I just want to say one thing and then I will crawl back into my hole.

Cloning is *theft* of intellectual property. It is morally wrong. There are plenty of decent reasonably priced Chinese devices that are originals. Don't support thieves!

OK back to my hole...

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 2 | Thanks 1


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## Petrus (19/3/17)

@Raindance , thanks for the positive feedback, I knew the moment when I post there would be a hectic debate, but luckily we are a mature community and debate like adults about this matter. At the end of the day as long as you "The Vaper" got a setup that suits your needs and keep you off the stinkies you are a WINNER.

Oh, and the late nights, my friend if you reach a certain age, you immediately go to bed after your last Whiskey, in my case before 9 and then form 12 I go to the loo more often

Reactions: Funny 2


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## KZOR (19/3/17)

Why would you guys pay so much for these when Sir Vape sells a way superior quality version?


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## jpzx12rturbo (19/3/17)

I'm strongly considering it @KZOR


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## Raindance (19/3/17)

KZOR said:


> Why would you guys pay so much for these when Sir Vape sells a way superior quality version?


We are trying to figure that one out here @KZOR.

Regards


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## Genosmate (19/3/17)

KZOR said:


> Why would you guys pay so much for these when Sir Vape sells a way superior quality version?





Raindance said:


> We are trying to figure that one out here @KZOR.
> 
> Regards



Judging by the smiley face at the end of @KZOR post I'd say it may be tongue in cheek,that or he's trying to stir up some Sunday morning controversy.
Me - Im staying out of the clones vs authentic debate.
I simply buy what I want because I can and because I have the choice

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Ash (19/3/17)

Genosmate said:


> Judging by the smiley face at the end of @KZOR post I'd say it may be tongue in cheek,that or he's trying to stir up some Sunday morning controversy.
> Me - Im staying out of the clones vs authentic debate.
> I simply buy what I want because I can and because I have the choice



Well said


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## KZOR (19/3/17)

Genosmate said:


> I'd say it may be tongue in cheek



Yea m8 ...... just felt like messing about with @Rob Fisher.
Have never bought a clone in my life and not planning to ever either. Clones are for the weak and mild. 
If i cannot afford it i simply move on.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## SAVapeGear (19/3/17)

KZOR said:


> Why would you guys pay so much for these when Sir Vape sells a way superior quality version?


The Birret box.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 5


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## Silver (19/3/17)

KZOR said:


> Why would you guys pay so much for these when Sir Vape sells a way superior quality version?



Oh my word, i thought you were kidding @KZOR 
Checked it out now
They even copied the logo on the box
Sigh


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## Raindance (19/3/17)

Sorry to come back to the clone. I see nothing wrong with it. If it were not for cloning I would not have been able to buy a Porsche as my very first vehicle.
The very first Porsche I ever owned: (Not the actual car, that was painted racing turquoise between the rusty bits.) 





Porsche 911 clone by VW. Aircooled, rear engined, rear wheel drive... Exactly the same as the real deal.

(Sorry to those that noticed me posting this twice.)

Regards


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## Christos (19/3/17)

Raindance said:


> Sorry to come back to the clone. I see nothing wrong with it. If it were not for cloning I would not have been able to buy a Porsche as my very first vehicle.
> The very first Porsche I ever owned: (Not the actual car, that was painted racing turquoise between the rusty bits.)
> 
> 
> ...


VW wasn't really a clone of the porshe. Same guy I think designed both.

Same designer just for different markets/uses.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Porsche


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## Raindance (19/3/17)

Christos said:


> VW wasn't really a clone of the porshe. Same guy I think designed both.
> 
> Same designer just for different markets/uses.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Porsche


In that case you share a point of view with Jeremy Clarkson that a Porsche is merely a glorified Beetle. Irrespective how true that may be. Irrespective of how much the evidence may make that an irrefutable fact. I refuse to agree to such an outrageous statement.

Having hijacked this thread sufficiently to receive a stern warning from our respected moderators, please consider the warning received and heeded from this point forward.

Best Regards


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## KZOR (19/3/17)

Stay tuned for the next 20minutes ....... made something special for the Billet box style owners. 
Will post as soon as completed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## KZOR (19/3/17)



Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Funny 7


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## boxerulez (19/3/17)

KZOR said:


>



Referring to the Sxk Billet boxes styles that Sir Vape just brought in? SXK who also makes the silvanusa and the HHA Ultron (Same thing) 

Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


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## KZOR (19/3/17)

boxerulez said:


> Referring to the Sxk Billet boxes styles that Sir Vape just brought in?


Not referring to anyone specific. Just messing around.
Why do you ask? Bad experience with one?


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## spiv (19/3/17)

Without contempt for Billet Box Vapor; these guys sell out everything they make every week in minutes. They are no doubt making enough money to ramp up production. I have no doubt that they have ramped up considerably from the first version, but how can SXK come out and make a clone and possibly produce a lot more? 
As I understand, the first SXK batch had some issues and stopped production to fix them. Backwards magnets etc. Word is that they're apparently also cloning the Exocert. They also have a proper DNA60 version coming out. 
So here we have a clone. Made by someone else. All problems soon to be fixed. Exact dimensions as original. Same chip. Available for people to purchase without jumping through hoops. 

The originals will still sell out in minutes. Billet Box Vapor will not feel this clone on their bottom line at all.

I don't condone clones. I've bought a few and always ended up buying the original to replace it if I can get it. 

Mods are not usually cloned. It's usually the atomisers. Even if a clone is made of a mod, it's not often they chuck in a DNA chip. SXK also makes mods for companies, like @boxerulez mentioned above. 

All this leads me to believe that Billet Box Vapor themselves have something to do with this clone. I think this is going to catapult their brand to the mainstream like never before without tarnishing the exclusivity of the mods made by them. It will popularise their atomiser box thing and all atomisers for it and accessories. Maybe some sort of profit sharing with SXK. They could increase their profits 10x without lifting a finger. It's genius.

Reactions: Like 2 | Creative 1


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## boxerulez (19/3/17)

Wehe situation possibly...

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## RichJB (19/3/17)

spiv said:


> Available for people to purchase without jumping through hoops.



This is a factor even at the bottom end of the market. I have a Virus clone which appeared at Vape King literally weeks after I'd seen the Vaping Bogan review the original. Cigreen make dirt cheap drippers, the stuff is like $18 at Gearbest. I was waiting for someone to bring in the original, which I'd happily have paid for, it would only have been R450 or so. But nobody did. I can't be bovvered with Post Office bureaucracy and waiting six months for parcels from overseas. So I just popped into VK that very day and bought the R300 clone. Sorted. The struggle is real, know'm'sayin?

Reactions: Like 1


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## incredible_hullk (19/3/17)

KZOR said:


>




@KZOR cracker of a video...I'm crying in laughter.... nice one

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Petrus (20/3/17)

KZOR said:


>



@KZOR , what a way to start my Monday, great video.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## incredible_hullk (20/3/17)

Petrus said:


> @KZOR , what a way to start my Monday, great video.


@Petrus I have watched this video 10 times already and still cant get enuf...its awesome

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tockit (20/3/17)

I was in a vape shop one day with my clone recoil RDA. A customer saw it and said he also has one. When I told him it was a clone he's face changed and he snobbishly said he has the authentic. Out of interest I asked him to try my one. See if there is any difference. He vaped it, mod was set to 40watts. He's response was, Oh I vape at 70watts. I bumped up the wattage and he's face changed again. That realisation that he spent so much on the authentic. He's words were. There is no difference. 

Sent from my E2333 using Tapatalk

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## Scissorhands (20/3/17)

Tockit said:


> I was in a vape shop one day with my clone recoil RDA. A customer saw it and said he also has one. When I told him it was a clone he's face changed and he snobbishly said he has the authentic. Out of interest I asked him to try my one. See if there is any difference. He vaped it, mod was set to 40watts. He's response was, Oh I vape at 70watts. I bumped up the wattage and he's face changed again. That realisation that he spent so much on the authentic. He's words were. There is no difference.
> 
> Sent from my E2333 using Tapatalk


Everyone has there stance on the topic and your testament is a great example that the vape quality can be identical, with that said I cant say the same for the build/material quality, after using my auth hadaly daily for a month (rebuilt 6/7 times) i was confident when my buddy asked me to rebuild his clone . . . Guess what, like a true fool i snaped a screw in the post, it took me a few seconds to realise what happened. . . Yes this can be considered user error but that was enough to turn me off clones.

But they have a place. My buddys squonk set up cost 1/4th of mine . . . And they taste identical!

Edit: i feel mine would outlast his 4 fold though . . .

Reactions: Like 4


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## WELIHF (22/3/17)

I have no issues with clones, I do have an issue when retailers don't advertise it as a clone

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Tockit (23/3/17)

Scissorhands said:


> Everyone has there stance on the topic and your testament is a great example that the vape quality can be identical, with that said I cant say the same for the build/material quality, after using my auth hadaly daily for a month (rebuilt 6/7 times) i was confident when my buddy asked me to rebuild his clone . . . Guess what, like a true fool i snaped a screw in the post, it took me a few seconds to realise what happened. . . Yes this can be considered user error but that was enough to turn me off clones.
> 
> But they have a place. My buddys squonk set up cost 1/4th of mine . . . And they taste identical!
> 
> Edit: i feel mine would outlast his 4 fold though . . .


But that is a faulty screw though. Many authentic atties have the same issue especially with grub screws stripping. I have no issues with my hadaly clone. 

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## Spydro (23/3/17)

Rob Fisher said:


> I promised myself I would stay out of this thread... but I just want to say one thing and then I will crawl back into my hole.
> 
> Cloning is *theft* of intellectual property. It is morally wrong. There are plenty of decent reasonably priced Chinese devices that are originals. Don't support thieves!
> 
> OK back to my hole...



Same here and I agree 110%. But you know same as I do that you are preaching to a deaf choir that will always find some excuse to justify it.

I'm not going back to any hole to hide, but I'm done with this thread.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Funny 1


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## DoubleD (23/3/17)

Spydro said:


> Same here and I agree 110%. But you know same as I do that you are preaching to a deaf choir that will always find some excuse to justify it.
> 
> I'm not going back to any hole to hide, but I'm done with this thread.



Agreed, its theft. But note the wrong doing... The cloner is the guy in the wrong here, not the choir so to speak. People want to buy a product, if the product is there to buy, clone or not, people are going to buy it, quality issues aside people will buy according to what they can afford anyway, if money isnt an issue for you, good on you boet, enjoy but lets not fault the average joe just because he vapes and buys vape gear, clone or not.

Regarding the Billet box - If the original owners are not in some sort of deal with SXK then maybe they should ditch the clever 'limited' marketing strategy they have going on and start producing more to accommodate the demand. Just a thought..

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3


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## Clouds4Days (23/3/17)

DoubleD said:


> Agreed, its theft. But note the wrong doing... The cloner is the guy in the wrong here, not the choir so to speak. People want to buy a product, if the product is there to buy, clone or not, people are going to buy it, quality issues aside people will buy according to what they can afford anyway, if money isnt an issue for you, good on you boet, enjoy but lets not fault the average joe just because he vapes and buys vape gear, clone or not.
> 
> Regarding the Billet box - If the original owners are not in some sort of deal with SXK then maybe they should ditch the clever 'limited' marketing strategy they have going on and start producing more to accommodate the demand. Just a thought..



They wont cause its all part of H.E tactics.
If you are a manufacturer and you cant keep up with demand what do you do.... Buy more machines.... Ok maybe you dont have funds for more machines.... I know lets employe more prople so we can run 24hrs to keep up with the demand.

No wait if we start suppling more and make it easy for someone to buy our product it will no longer be "exclusive" and "H.E"

Reactions: Like 2


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## Spydro (23/3/17)

DoubleD said:


> Agreed, its theft. But note the wrong doing... The cloner is the guy in the wrong here, not the choir so to speak. People want to buy a product, if the product is there to buy, clone or not, people are going to buy it, quality issues aside people will buy according to what they can afford anyway, if money isnt an issue for you, good on you boet, enjoy but lets not fault the average joe just because he vapes and buys vape gear, clone or not.



Should have known better than to dive in... 
I do understand your opinion that was politely presented (I'll try to respond the same). We are at a bypass as I can't agree with it at all. I see those that buy clones as accessories to the crime after the fact, a partner of sorts that drives the clone manufactures that are only in it for the almighty buck no matter who they step on to get it. Clones for folks that suffer from one of the worst infections in vaping... instant gratification, a laziness that is found in every single aspect of vaping (life for that matter). But anyone could afford an authentic if they are willing to give up some of the frivolous things everybody wastes some money on every day, week or month and save up for it. Yes, anyone can if they really wanted to. But many will buy clones anyway because they do not care that they are supporting crimes that will degrade the overall health of the vaping business. Cloners will never go away as long as buyers support them. As I suggested we are at a bypass as I will never support clone MFG's (or those who buy them), so I feel no need to discuss this further with anyone. Spy out.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Can relate 1


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## Feliks Karp (23/3/17)

Spydro said:


> But anyone could afford an authentic if they are willing to give up some of the frivolous things everybody wastes some money on every day, week or month and save up for it.



I agree with this, and adding on to it I think people would just generally be happier if they bought and used what they could afford.

I've just had my sixth cup of coffee for the day so I feel like I should stir a little, I've seen a couple comments regarding the marketing tactics of gear that gets cloned, and I get the feeling the whole thing is a feedback loop. People say item X is too expensive (but it is THE BEST THING EVER) or item X is too rare (but it is THE BEST THING EVER), so I'll just buy the clone. So even though you complain that the gear is being marketed in an exclusive manner, you are still feeding the cult of personality that you are complaining about.

It feels like you are simply reinforcing the original's incentive to stay expensive and rare, because they know they will keep getting cash from the people who can and will buy authentic, and they are basically getting free advertising from all the people rushing out to buy the copy because ITS THE BEST THING EVER. I'd take a bet that the money they "lose" to clones is cheaper than the marketing budget they'd need to get the amount of hype generated from people who rush out the buy clones.

Reactions: Like 2


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## boxerulez (27/3/17)

Spydro said:


> Should have known better than to dive in...
> I do understand your opinion that was politely presented (I'll try to respond the same). We are at a bypass as I can't agree with it at all. I see those that buy clones as accessories to the crime after the fact, a partner of sorts that drives the clone manufactures that are only in it for the almighty buck no matter who they step on to get it. Clones for folks that suffer from one of the worst infections in vaping... instant gratification, a laziness that is found in every single aspect of vaping (life for that matter). But anyone could afford an authentic if they are willing to give up some of the frivolous things everybody wastes some money on every day, week or month and save up for it. Yes, anyone can if they really wanted to. But many will buy clones anyway because they do not care that they are supporting crimes that will degrade the overall health of the vaping business. Cloners will never go away as long as buyers support them. As I suggested we are at a bypass as I will never support clone MFG's (or those who buy them), so I feel no need to discuss this further with anyone. Spy out.



I sure am happy you do not work for the DoJ.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## E.T. (27/3/17)

*Warning long ass post coming if you are pressured for time please skip*

I bought an "Authentic" Hadaly, and liked it so much that I bought a Clone to see how it compares.

Well after about 3 months I can say the following:

The clone sees most of the usage, always out and about, braais, beach work, camping etc.

The authentic is mostly at home, don't want to subject it too abuse or loose the bloody thing. (used every night though)

here is the kicker, the vape on both atty's are basically the same, cant tell the two apart (maybe its just me who cant tell them apart).

There are a few minor differences, the clone has gold screws, the cap doesn't sit as flush as the authentic bla bla bla bla.

*to summarize all the useless info above

The Authentic Hadaly (R1200)
*
Very nice atty, does have its issues, whistle that does not go away (tried most of the advice on the forum) and one of the screws "top" broke off while recoiling (no force used) with the little blue screwdriver and it was a biaatch to remove. One of the spare screws does not even have a slot (totally flat on top)
*
The Clone Hadaly (R400-R500)
*
Very nice atty, no whistle, no issues as of yet whatsoever.

Does that mean the clone is better? NO, maybe I received a dud Authentic or an exceptionally good clone, maybe I am an idiot who knows absolutely nothing about "real vaping".

To buy a clone LC (low class) / Low end or only authentic HE, is each and every persons own prerogative.

Lets just all enjoy vaping in our own way and not judge one another on gear, status and other crap. (and yes it does go both ways).

My first real ramble about a load of shyte jipee

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 4


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## DoubleD (27/3/17)

E.T. said:


> Lets just all enjoy vaping in our own way and not judge one another on gear, status and other crap. (and yes it does go both ways).

Reactions: Like 2 | Thanks 1


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## David Naude (3/5/17)

Rob Fisher said:


> Cloning is *theft* of intellectual property


 Couldn't agree more as much as I would like one if I cannot afford the authentic I would do without it. Well said @Rob Fisher

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Clouds4Days (12/5/17)

I have been browsing the web looking at vape gear to be more specific PETRI RDA and dont know if any one has noticed but you wont find any on any of the chinease websites anymore.

I started to look more into this and found out that the chinease no longer clone DotMod products with the petri logo but they still do clone them but now they are called PTI RDA or PTI RDA .

Does anyone know how DotMod managed to get the cloners on pulling the plug on copying the name of their hardware?


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## Dolfie (13/5/17)

@E.T. I was looking at the Hadaly for some time alot off reviews complain about the seals that's to tight and its not sealing properly. Well after your post I bought the SXK Hadaly. Mine is fantastic no complaints everything works perfect have no idée how original is but for R300 why bother.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Scissorhands (13/5/17)

Dolfie said:


> @E.T. I was looking at the Hadaly for some time alot off reviews complain about the seals that's to tight and its not sealing properly. Well after your post I bought the SXK Hadaly. Mine is fantastic no complaints everything works perfect have no idée how original is but for R300 why bother.



Removing one o ring on the authentic solves the problem, i have used both, the sxk clone is very good, my only 2 cons: the clamping surface area is smaller on the clone, not that the authentic has alot to begin with and found the clone screws to be very soft. If i had to shop again i would consider getting 4 sxk's . . .

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## E.T. (14/5/17)

Dolfie said:


> @E.T. I was looking at the Hadaly for some time alot off reviews complain about the seals that's to tight and its not sealing properly. Well after your post I bought the SXK Hadaly. Mine is fantastic no complaints everything works perfect have no idée how original is but for R300 why bother.



Jip the clone is awesome i do simple builds and both the authentic and clone perfoms equally well. On the same build you cant distinguish beteen the two. The Hadaly clone or Authentic is awesome. But for the price the clone wins by a country mile

Reactions: Like 1


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