# How long do flavours last?



## RichJB (8/5/18)

Wayne addresses the elephant in the room:



This is an interesting area for me. If you buy wholesale from the flavour companies, they deliver the flavour in a bottle that has an expiry date printed on it. When flavours are rebottled, as Wayne says, you get no indication. So there are always questions about the flavours we buy:
* Is it fresh stock or has it been sitting on the shelves at the vendor, possibly for more than a year already?
* Regardless of whether it's fresh or older stock, when can you expect it to degrade?
* What are the differences between the brands in terms of longevity? Will Flv last longer than TFA, for example?

I hear Wayne's advice about mixing it up and gauging whether it has lost oomph. But I would imagine that it's not an either or, that the flavour isn't 100% for ages and then suddenly falls off a cliff. I think it would degrade incrementally. Let's call that longitudinal degradation.

Then you have latitudinal degradation, i.e. the amount of fading that a flavour undergoes during the steeping process. There are some flavours which, regardless of how fresh they are, will fade and fade hard when they are mixed. As little as three days into steeping, the flavour might have faded to almost nothing.

And so to my question: to what extent can we replicate juices? Let's assume for the sake of illustration that Wayne releases a five-ingredient recipe, that he mixed with a batch of fresh flavours direct off the production line. He lets it steep for five days and is delighted with the result. I now mix that same recipe and my five bottles of flavour are as follows:
Flavour 1: fresh
Flavour 2: has degraded to 92% of its original potency
Flavour 3: has degraded to 80% of its original potency
Flavour 4: fresh
Flavour 5: has degraded to 88% of its original potency

Am I getting the same juice that he is? That's longitudinal degradation, now latitudinal. Flavours 2 and 4 fade somewhat during steeping. Not to nothing but certainly noticeable. I steep my juice for eight weeks, Wayne steeps his for five days. Are we again getting the same juice?

DIYers worry about things like scale inaccuracies affecting the final result of our juice. I would propose that is just one factor among many. As DIYers, we work blind most of the time. We only taste juices that are mixed with the flavours in our stash. What would be interesting for me is to have six DIYers all make the same recipe with the flavours in their stash. And then to taste all six juices in one setup to determine what changes, if any, could be detected by flavours of differing ages.

Can we ever expect anything other than a rough approximation of the original juice? And further to that, should it concern us? If we take the issue of Inw reformulation, this is the burning question: if DIYers weren't told, how long would it take them to realise? We know that perception and expectation play a big role in flavours. If we are told that a juice is strawberry and it looks like strawberry, we will often taste strawberry even if the flavour is something else. If I am not told that Inw Biscuit is reformulated and I use reformulated Inw Biscuit believing it to be the OG, will I detect a change? In Biscuit's case, I had my suspicions. I mixed up a batch of Simply Cannoli with a new bottle of Biscuit and it was definitely different and not as good. But there are other flavours, reputedly reformulated, where I can honestly say that I don't know.

We see a lot of experienced DIYers with very acute palates who are in two minds about whether a flavour has been reformulated or not. If it's that subtle, should it concern us? Then of course there are differences between batches of PG, VG and nic. We like to imagine that because we are working quite precisely down to the second decimal point, that we are we getting faithful representations of the recipes we mix. Honestly, I have to wonder if we are. And whether it really matters if we aren't.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 2 | Winner 4 | Informative 5


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## Andre (8/5/18)

Interesting @RichJB. For me it boils down to whether I like the juice after I have mixed it with my concentrates old and new and it has steeped for at least a month. And it should retain its essential flavour for at least a year.

Reactions: Like 8


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## Cornelius (8/5/18)

Very interesting article indeed. Thank you for sharing, it confirms one or 2 suspicions I have had.

Reactions: Like 6


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar (8/5/18)

This was the question on my mind since the day I placed my first DIY concentrate order. Thanks for posting your this @RichJB

Reactions: Like 4


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## RichJB (8/5/18)

I don't think it's a fatal flaw in DIY but it's something to be mindful of. We like to be precise. If a recipe calls for 0.8% of a flavour and we don't pay attention to the scale and accidentally add 0.9 or 1%, our first instinct will be that we have messed up and ruined the juice. Yet we rarely consider that older flavours which have lost potency may have just as much impact as measuring out the wrong amount.

We don't want to sub flavours but if the recipe developer was using a totally fresh flavour and I use a flavour that has degraded substantially, that could make the same difference as using a sub.

It's also wise to not just dismiss a recipe that isn't working. I would rather try to identify what isn't working. If it's that a particular note isn't registering, it might not be that the developer got the balance wrong, it could be that the specific flavour in my stash has degraded. So I'd be happy to tweak, or to try the recipe again when I have bought in fresh flavours.

As long as we are mindful that we are dealing with a whole bunch of variables, we can adapt accordingly and get the best from our DIY.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Useful 3


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## Room Fogger (8/5/18)

Very interesting @RichJB , I am new to DIY, and have always wondered how big a difference a little under or over actually makes, especially now with me having the shakes. And then how fresh the concentrate is and how well it was stored. And now the difference manufacturers and reformulation comes in as well. 

Maybe it will be a good thing to have a couple of us, including the newbies make a recipy out of their stash, without knowing what the end result should actually taste like. Someone like you and @Andre and @Rude Rudi can make the actual recipy exactly the way it should be. And then we can have a taste off in our regions. Maybe we will all be surprised.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Rude Rudi (8/5/18)

Room Fogger said:


> Maybe it will be a good thing to have a couple of us, including the newbies make a recipy out of their stash, without knowing what the end result should actually taste like. Someone like you and @Andre and @Rude Rudi can make the actual recipy exactly the way it should be. And then we can have a taste off in our regions. Maybe we will all be surprised.



Sounds like a plan but I'm not sure I'm following you?

"_Make a recipe out of their stash_" meaning all the mixers mix up the the same recipe or their own recipe?
"_Someone like you and @Andre and @Rude Rudi can make the actual recipy exactly the way it should be_" I'm a bit lost here...

Please clarify a bit more?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Room Fogger (8/5/18)

Rude Rudi said:


> Sounds like a plan but I'm not sure I'm following you?
> 
> "_Make a recipe out of their stash_" meaning all the mixers mix up the the same recipe or their own recipe?
> "_Someone like you and @Andre and @Rude Rudi can make the actual recipy exactly the way it should be_" I'm a bit lost here...
> ...


All that want to participate make the same recipy, but using whatever is in their inventory. We can have a process where their interpretation is shared with you, if is happens to be the same as the original recipy, they can sit out. Or we can ask 5 mixers to make a recipe, and drop it or send it to a diy'er with more experience to compare to the original recipy they mixed as per the original recipy components. Might be interesting to see how much the profiles may differ, and we will need someone with a bit more taste buds to taste it to be able to tell.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Rude Rudi (8/5/18)

Room Fogger said:


> All that want to participate make the same recipy, but using whatever is in their inventory. We can have a process where their interpretation is shared with you, if is happens to be the same as the original recipy, they can sit out. Or we can ask 5 mixers to make a recipe, and drop it or send it to a diy'er with more experience to compare to the original recipy they mixed as per the original recipy components. Might be interesting to see how much the profiles may differ, and we will need someone with a bit more taste buds to taste it to be able to tell.



So, they make a predetermined recipe but they can then use whichever concentrate type they have?
So the recipe will call for 2% strawberry but we wont specify TPA Strawberry Ripe for example so they can use CAP, INW, CLY, FLV, etc?

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB (8/5/18)

My idea was to have say six DIYers decide in advance on a recipe to mix up. Let's take Wayne's Quik as an example. On a specified date, each of the six would mix up 50ml of Quik to a specific baseline of say 3mg nic and 70/30. Every mixer would use the correct concentrates in exactly the ratio that Wayne stipulates. Then, two weeks later, all six mixers bring their 50ml bottle of 14-day steeped Quik to one location and one vaper tries all six juices in one setup.

We would all be striving to make the exact juice, identical to what Wayne mixed in his lab. Theoretically, the six juices should be indistinguishable. We're all making the exact recipe to identical specifications. But we'd also be mixing with a combination of fresher and older concentrates that would vary from mixer to mixer, the PG and VG in our stash, the nic we prefer, and then also factors like different bottles or different shaking/steeping methods.

Would the six juices taste exactly the same, would there be very subtle differences, or would there be noticeable differences? I don't know. And that's why it would be fun and informative to find out.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## Bulldog (8/5/18)

Great Idea @RichJB

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## aktorsyl (8/5/18)

This brings another question to the fore: on average, after getting your concentrates from the local vendor - what is a good rule of thumb for shelf life? Obviously this will vary depending on how long the vendor has had it on the shelf, hence the average rule of thumb. 1 year? 2 years?
(By shelf-life I mean, how long can it be in your concentrate cupboard before the flavour drops to below approx 80% of what it was on the day you received it... not the day it was produced).

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB (8/5/18)

I think a lot depends on the flavour itself. I bought Cly Cerelac almost two years ago. I recently added just a drop or two to a recipe I'm developing and it registered loud and clear. There has been zero drop-off, even for an old flavour. I bought my FA Forrest Mix at around the same time and it's gone over the edge now. The flavour is noticeably less potent than it was when fresh. 

However, another FA flavour might have retained its potency and another Cly flavour might have lost its potency. So I think that degradation over time is probably like fading during a steep. Some flavours are prone to it, others not. It's not a brand issue or even a profile issue. You might find one strawberry flavour that fades/degrades terribly, another that doesn't.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Dietz (8/5/18)

RichJB said:


> I think a lot depends on the flavour itself. I bought Cly Cerelac almost two years ago. I recently added just a drop or two to a recipe I'm developing and it registered loud and clear. There has been zero drop-off, even for an old flavour. I bought my FA Forrest Mix at around the same time and it's gone over the edge now. The flavour is noticeably less potent than it was when fresh.
> 
> However, another FA flavour might have retained its potency and another Cly flavour might have lost its potency. So I think that degradation over time is probably like fading during a steep. Some flavours are prone to it, others not. It's not a brand issue or even a profile issue. You might find one strawberry flavour that fades/degrades terribly, another that doesn't.


I know this is based on flav concentrates, but Is it possible that certain 'Additives might cause degradation quicker?

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## RichJB (8/5/18)

I have no idea. By additives, do you mean something like "adding Smooth to a juice will cause it to fade faster than if you didn't use it"? I think additives do cause muting often. Fading or degradation, I'm not sure.

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## Room Fogger (8/5/18)

@Rude Rudi , I like @RichJB idea better. 5 or 6 mix identical and then one judge to taste and score them. I think it may be very interesting

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Rude Rudi (8/5/18)

Room Fogger said:


> @Rude Rudi , I like @RichJB idea better. 5 or 6 mix identical and then one judge to taste and score them. I think it may be very interesting



Yes, I get it now. 

I think 6 may be too many to try and judge/test in one sitting. Perhaps 4 or so? 

Love the idea!!!

Reactions: Like 3


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## GregF (8/5/18)

@RichJB you idea is great and would prove a point, but there would need to be some kind of baseline where each mixer would need to know when he bought said concentrate.

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## Room Fogger (8/5/18)

I don't think the tester should be given any info, after the tasting the actual dates purchased and how/what was used can be made public. I think this may be an eye opener for a lot of us.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## aktorsyl (8/5/18)

Just remember, date purchased is a bit meaningless if the manufacturing date was 2 years before that. So you're working 50% blind all the way through. Would be great if we can get some of our local concentrate vendors on board with this experiment.

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## Dietz (8/5/18)

RichJB said:


> I have no idea. By additives, do you mean something like "adding Smooth to a juice will cause it to fade faster than if you didn't use it"? I think additives do cause muting often. Fading or degradation, I'm not sure.


Yup exactly like using smooth, Magic mask or bitter

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## RichJB (8/5/18)

I haven't heard any anecdotal evidence of additives accelerating fading, only of muting. But that is instantaneous, if you overdo Smooth your juice will lack flavour off the shake. It's not like it's OK for a week and then starts fading.

I have heard that incorporating a flavour into a juice will slow down the flavour degradation. So if you mixed a juice with a two-year-old flavour and then left both the juice and the concentrate for another year, the concentrate will have degraded more than the flavour mixed into the juice. Although I would imagine that even the concentrate in the juice would suffer some degradation. Whether additives accelerate or hinder either fading or degradation is debatable and probably worth researching/investigating.

Why it works that a flavour can _fade_ quickly in a juice but _degrades_ slower than it would in the concentrate bottle is a mystery to me. But apparently it's how it works. One thing is for sure: our flavours are never in a stable state but are instead going through micro-changes constantly.

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