# Ok. This actually happened



## Nightwalker (27/5/17)

One of the most famous and safest mods on the market would take a complete moron to do the following.
I know it was USB charger. I told him not to. I warned about battery imbalance and battery wraps. He did not listen. 
He can thank the many many safety features of the RX200S.
But I'm still in complete shock.
Have a look.
Side note: maybe vendors should treat all clients like children if that's what it takes. (Extreme) but maybe ecigsa could send flyers to vendors to put in bags on how not to be stupid.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Informative 1 | Useful 1


----------



## zadiac (27/5/17)

Ja, as jou kop dom is, moetjou lyf k*k.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 3 | Disagree 1


----------



## Quakes (27/5/17)

I don't know how can anyone think it is okay to use a battery that looks like that...

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Nightwalker (27/5/17)

zadiac said:


> Ja, as jou kop dom is, moetjou lyf k*k.


It's unbelievable. I'm still thinking wtf was he thinking

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Nightwalker (27/5/17)

Quakes said:


> I don't know how can anyone think it is okay to use a battery that looks like that...


Let's get even more advanced, the individual is a qualified dangerous goods handler... And lithium ion is a huge subject in one of the first chapters... He knows this...

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Quakes (27/5/17)

Nightwalker said:


> Let's get even more advanced, the individual is a qualified dangerous goods handler... And lithium ion is a huge subject in one of the first chapters... He knows this...


Well then it's exactly as @zadiac said.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Feliks Karp (27/5/17)

Well just goes to show you safety starts with you as the user not the equipment. This came up in a previous thread, where @Christos and myself were saying that you can't rely solely on the regulated mod to keep you safe.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3 | Disagree 1


----------



## Nightwalker (27/5/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> Well just goes to show you safety starts with you as the user not the equipment. This came up in a previous thread, where @Christos and myself were saying that you can't rely solely on the regulated mod to keep you safe.


Believe me. I know.
Luckily when I started vaping, the big boys here in PE showed me the ropes. I listened to their advice and learnt from them and common sense and from the internet when reviewers were actually teaching and not selling.
The help is out there. There's no excuse

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## Kuhlkatz (27/5/17)

Some peeps takes battery safety serious, others just shrug it off. One day they may even stop treating their mods like penlite driven remotes that gets chucked all over the place.

Unfortunately a lot of people are like computers. You have to 'punch' information into them ....

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5


----------



## Christos (27/5/17)

From the pictures it looks like the person escaped with no physical harm or so I'm hoping.

School fees have been paid!

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## zadiac (27/5/17)

Nightwalker said:


> Let's get even more advanced, *the individual is a qualified dangerous goods handler*... And lithium ion is a huge subject in one of the first chapters... He knows this...



You mean unqualified

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Nightwalker (27/5/17)

Christos said:


> From the pictures it looks like the person escaped with no physical harm or so I'm hoping.
> 
> School fees have been paid!


He did. He came to me wanting to know why it wasn't firing. I pointed the stupidity to him.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Nightwalker (27/5/17)

zadiac said:


> You mean unqualified


Damn straight. I'm actually going to approach relevant academies and see what they are teaching if that's considered qualified DGR


----------



## RichJB (27/5/17)

OK, I don't want to be that guy but how would the torn wraps have caused this? By the exposed neg casing either at the bottom of the battery or midway up contacting the casing of the mod? I can't see how the torn wraps would lead to a pos-neg short if the batts are inserted in a mod? We can't see the wraps at the business (i.e. positive pin) end of the battery. But assuming those wraps are sound and the insulator ring is place, how does this create a short?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


----------



## Nightwalker (27/5/17)

RichJB said:


> OK, I don't want to be that guy but how would the torn wraps have caused this? By the exposed neg casing either at the bottom of the battery or midway up contacting the casing of the mod? I can't see how the torn wraps would lead to a pos-neg short if the batts are inserted in a mod? We can't see the wraps at the business (i.e. positive pin) end of the battery. But assuming those wraps are sound and the insulator ring is place, how does this create a short?


What I'm gathering, is it over heated. And I only showed the bottoms. Tops are also screwed. Only took those pics


----------



## Feliks Karp (27/5/17)

RichJB said:


> OK, I don't want to be that guy but how would the torn wraps have caused this? By the exposed neg casing either at the bottom of the battery or midway up contacting the casing of the mod? I can't see how the torn wraps would lead to a pos-neg short if the batts are inserted in a mod? We can't see the wraps at the business (i.e. positive pin) end of the battery. But assuming those wraps are sound and the insulator ring is place, how does this create a short?



My unqualified guess, the torn wraps are just indicative of poor safety practice in general from this person, unbalanced charging and non-rotation of batteries (also since they are browns, maybe they are dodgy) lead to some kind of excessive drain on one and then the rest. Looks like slot two was the main culprit here as the burn is on top.

*edit This mod has also most likely been dropped pretty hard at some point notice the huge chip near the positive terminal in slot 1? Just a general cluster **** waiting to happen.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 2


----------



## DoubleD (27/5/17)

"Clouds bro clouds"

Reactions: Funny 5


----------



## BioHAZarD (27/5/17)

As jy dom is moet jy k@k

Sent from my Note 4

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## BubiSparks (27/5/17)

The responses on here get me even more worried.....No-one seems to understand.

It's an RX200s so the batts are in series... THAT MEANS THE CASINGS ARE NOT ALL AT THE SAME POTENTIAL. In a parallel mod, the torn sleeves won't matter as all the casings (Negative) will be at the same potential. In a series mod you will get 4.2V if you measure between the first and second battery casing, and 8.4V between the first and the third. So if the casings touch....BANG!!!

Maybe I'll draw a diagram later if you guys don't follow.

P.S. Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings...

Reactions: Agree 3 | Informative 2 | Useful 1


----------



## RichJB (27/5/17)

Thanks for the explanation, @BubiSparks, but I'm still not getting it. The casings will only touch metal to metal if the insulating wrap is missing in the same spot on both batteries. Take that hole midway up the one wrapper as an example. Yes, the casing is bare. But the other battery has its wrap intact at the same point. So if the two batteries come into contact, there is a still a layer of insulation between the two casings.

Of course, we can't see the entirety of the wrapping on all three batteries in the pics. So it is possible that one of the other batteries has a tear/hole in the same spot and the two flaws lined up when the batteries were inserted side by side. But if this isn't the case, how would it create a short? As long as you have one layer of insulation between two conductive metal surfaces, you shouldn't need two?

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## BubiSparks (27/5/17)

@RichJB - Yes the damaged insulation would have to line up of course. And Yes that is not likely to happen often, but then, that's also why we don't see catastrophic failures more often. The photo's in the OP don't show any carbon on the batteries that match the carbon on the mod either...

A battery could also be touching the mod casing and cause a short. A lay person assumes that the casing of a battery is always negative and at the same potential as the body of a device so if the battery touches the housing it's OK. NOT SO!!!!

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2


----------



## RichJB (27/5/17)

The battery shorting against the mod casing makes sense to me. Even if two batteries had holes in the wraps at the corresponding point, I'm still struggling to see how metal touches metal. If we magnify the contact point under a microscope, I imagine it would look something like this:




Where black = metal battery casing and red = wrap. So even if you have a hole at the corresponding spot in both wraps, you still have the thickness of the wraps keeping the two metal surfaces apart. The gap might only be a few microns but it's nevertheless still a gap. Unless the potential difference is sufficient to induce a spark between the two surfaces? I can't see it at these voltages, though.

You could touch metal to metal by holding the two batteries at right-angles to each other and pressing them together. But side by side as they would be in a mod, I don't see how contact is possible unless you clamped them together in a vise or somesuch.

I'd really like to understand more about the actual physical/electrical processes involved in battery shorting and venting. I tend to follow a safety-first "if a wrap is torn or even nicked then re-wrap" approach. But I'm doing it because "it says so in the Bible", not because I can understand the actual science.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## BubiSparks (27/5/17)

I agree with what you say regarding the likelyhood of batteries touching when the damage is somewhere in the middle. If insulation is missing at the base like in the photo, it's very possible that it could touch the mod housing with a jolt. If that battery is not the first in the series (i.e. at the same potential as the housing), it would cause a short quite easily.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Nightwalker (27/5/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> My unqualified guess, the torn wraps are just indicative of poor safety practice in general from this person, unbalanced charging and non-rotation of batteries (also since they are browns, maybe they are dodgy) lead to some kind of excessive drain on one and then the rest. Looks like slot two was the main culprit here as the burn is on top.
> 
> *edit This mod has also most likely been dropped pretty hard at some point notice the huge chip near the positive terminal in slot 1? Just a general cluster **** waiting to happen.


Saw the drop marks too


----------



## Nightwalker (27/5/17)

BubiSparks said:


> The responses on here get me even more worried.....No-one seems to understand.
> 
> It's an RX200s so the batts are in series... THAT MEANS THE CASINGS ARE NOT ALL AT THE SAME POTENTIAL. In a parallel mod, the torn sleeves won't matter as all the casings (Negative) will be at the same potential. In a series mod you will get 4.2V if you measure between the first and second battery casing, and 8.4V between the first and the third. So if the casings touch....BANG!!!
> 
> ...


It's quite alright. We understand. Well I hope. Lol.


----------



## Nightwalker (27/5/17)

BubiSparks said:


> I agree with what you say regarding the likelyhood of batteries touching when the damage is somewhere in the middle. If insulation is missing at the base like in the photo, it's very possible that it could touch the mod housing with a jolt. If that battery is not the first in the series (i.e. at the same potential as the housing), it would cause a short quite easily.


Batteries were missing missing pieces on base and top. I did say I only took the three pics. I just wanted to show what happens when you don't follow advice and common sense.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kuhlkatz (27/5/17)

RichJB said:


> The battery shorting against the mod casing makes sense to me. Even if two batteries had holes in the wraps at the corresponding point, I'm still struggling to see how metal touches metal. If we magnify the contact point under a microscope, I imagine it would look something like this:
> 
> View attachment 95953
> 
> ...



The rewrap immediately when torn is the best and safest approach. To a degree you are right that torn batteries themselves, especially as depicted above, should not be able to cause a short unless rotated. Maybe not battery to battery directly in this case.

In any mod, you cannot guarantee that the batteries are always aligned 100% parallel to each other in the mod, as the slots they fit in do have some play in them. In this case, I think the real culprit is the one with the torn base that was likely rotated towards the exterior of the metal battery casing.
If the casing of the mod is typically at negative / ground potential due to the 510 base being part of the casing, the batteries themselves do not need to touch each other. They simply need to touch the casing or common ground.
Even if the plate is not always touching the mod casing, when it's held and pressure is applied while firing, it can easily touch due to the looser magnetic bonding that allows slight movement as opposed to fixed pins and matching holes that do not allow sliding about.

Even though they are used in series, there are individual connections between EACH of the battery negative and positive terminals to charge each battery separately via an individual charge circuit, and to monitor their voltages individually. A faulty charge circuit in the mod could also cause a short between any of the two batteries.
Not all electronics go open-circuit when they fail. Some of them actually short out (think molten metal) before they and their neighbours go bang.

Never underestimate Murphy's Law: If anything can go wrong, it will.

EDITS : typo & perpendicular != parallel

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 2


----------



## kev mac (28/5/17)

Nightwalker said:


> Believe me. I know.
> Luckily when I started vaping, the big boys here in PE showed me the ropes. I listened to their advice and learnt from them and common sense and from the internet when reviewers were actually teaching and not selling.
> The help is out there. There's no excuse


As we know,9 times out of 10 it's user error.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Strontium (28/5/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> My unqualified guess, the torn wraps are just indicative of poor safety practice in general from this person, unbalanced charging and non-rotation of batteries (also since they are browns, maybe they are dodgy) lead to some kind of excessive drain on one and then the rest. Looks like slot two was the main culprit here as the burn is on top.
> 
> *edit This mod has also most likely been dropped pretty hard at some point notice the huge chip near the positive terminal in slot 1? Just a general cluster **** waiting to happen.



Non rotation of batteries?
I've only recently moved to a 2 cell mod, should I be changing the slots I put the batteries in?
I put them in the charger at night and reinsert in the same slot in the mod every morning

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Feliks Karp (28/5/17)

Strontium said:


> Non rotation of batteries?
> I've only recently moved to a 2 cell mod, should I be changing the slots I put the batteries in?
> I put them in the charger at night and reinsert in the same slot in the mod every morning



Yes, it's just good practice, because in a series circuit the first battery gets hit more than the second/third etc.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Kalahari stoommasjien (29/5/17)

Ok, @Feliks Karp , I'll byte, please to be explaining, how, in a series circuit, the 1st battery gets hit more than the others, assuming there's more than one... this aught to be good, where's my popcorn...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Feliks Karp (29/5/17)

Kalahari stoommasjien said:


> Ok, @Feliks Karp , I'll byte, please to be explaining, how, in a series circuit, the 1st battery gets hit more than the others, assuming there's more than one... this aught to be good, where's my popcorn...



Well it appears by your smart-arse remark you know better; so instead of a patronizing quip why do you not offer a more informed reply educating myself and others on this site? Are you just another arrogant fish in an already overwhelmingly full pond, or are you wanting to be part of the solution?


----------



## Cespian (29/5/17)

@Kalahari stoommasjien lets use the chalk and puppets:

Consider a snow-sled, horsed by 6 huskeys running in 2 x 3. Will all huskeys exert the same amount "work/effort" to pull the sled?


----------



## BioHAZarD (29/5/17)

Kalahari stoommasjien said:


> Ok, @Feliks Karp , I'll byte, please to be explaining, how, in a series circuit, the 1st battery gets hit more than the others, assuming there's more than one... this aught to be good, where's my popcorn...





Feliks Karp said:


> Well it appears by your smart-arse remark you know better; so instead of a patronizing quip why do you not offer a more informed reply educating myself and others on this site? Are you just another arrogant fish in an already overwhelmingly full pond, or are you wanting to be part of the solution?



Play nicely

Reactions: Thanks 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Feliks Karp (29/5/17)

And to answer your question, no there is probably no real electronic reason why the positioning will effect the drain rate, maybe it's just the crappy volt meters in most of these mods (which also ends up effecting the balance of charge when using the crappy USB charge ports), but most of them read the uneven volt ranges in order. A multi-cell circuit will always have some kind of drain discrepancy (even in parallel), because of minor manufacturing differences as well as various physics at play in the circuit. This would also apply to our chargers. So it simply becomes good practice to rotate cells to be fully sure that they are all getting a relatively even amount of wear and tear, and lifespan.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## Feliks Karp (29/5/17)

BioHAZarD said:


> Play nicely




Play nicely how exactly? He quite literally gave a smart-arse quip without any intrinsic value to a conversation. I was quite literally stating the truth. This crap comes up more and more on this site, we have a membership comprised of people from all fields including engineering, electronics, and education, yet most of them shoot out sarcastic and patronizing comments in response to statements that may be misinformed instead of actually *adding value* to the community as a whole. Why not take your knowledge and help build this community?


----------



## Kalahari stoommasjien (29/5/17)

@Cespian not sure what you're getting at, but Huskeys etc. don't make an apt analogy, that would only work if the Huskey's ran on a circular track where the Huskeys only could move the snow-sled if everything worked together properly, the front Huskeys would need to be tied to the back of the snow-sled etc., actually since you want a 2 X 3 scenario it could work lopsided... but hey, again, a kak analogy.
As for @Feliks Karp, you should know by now, being the vaper that you are and presumably also having messed around with a mechanical mod, then again, maybe not, that never mind where in your series circuit you measure the current flow, it amazingly is the same everywhere, which pretty much implies that both batteries are being asked to provide the same amount of current at their respective voltage. Now it could be that the batteries don't have an equal voltage, that they inherently are imbalanced from the start (one batterie is a 1.8Ah and the other a 2.5Ah capacity cell, lets say) in which case, eventually the circuit would stop operating because one battery is drained where the second one has some energy left. But in a series circuit both batteries effectively would be asked to provide the same amount of power.


----------



## RichJB (29/5/17)

Cespian said:


> Consider a snow-sled, horsed by 6 huskeys running in 2 x 3. Will all huskeys exert the same amount "work/effort" to pull the sled?



I don't know. But if your huskies look like this, you should definitely re-wrap.

Reactions: Winner 4 | Funny 9


----------



## BioHAZarD (29/5/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> Play nicely how exactly? He quite literally gave a smart-arse quip without any intrinsic value to a conversation. I was quite literally stating the truth. This crap comes up more and more on this site, we have a membership comprised of people from all fields including engineering, electronics, and education, yet most of them shoot out sarcastic and patronizing comments in response to statements that may be misinformed instead of actually *adding value* to the community as a whole. Why not take your knowledge and help build this community?



Self control  Rate the post and move on


----------



## Feliks Karp (29/5/17)

BioHAZarD said:


> Self control  Rate the post and move on



So instead of creating and engaging conversation and through that content for the community, I should passive-aggresively use a rating further adding zero value to the forum? Sorry no, I'd prefer to actually stir up a mild controversy and have an interaction that maybe leads to something being created rather than clicking a button and having nothing beneficial maybe pop up at the end of the day.


----------



## BioHAZarD (29/5/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> So instead of creating and engaging conversation and through that content for the community, I should passive-aggresively use a rating further adding zero value to the forum? Sorry no, I'd prefer to actually stir up a mild controversy and have an interaction that maybe leads to something being created rather than clicking a button and having nothing beneficial maybe pop up at the end of the day.


Never said you can't state an opinion but let the OP make up his own mind which version of info to use.

So far on the forum all I see is guys fighting over their opinions and then the thread get locked. A waste of energy if the discussion does not go anywhere?


----------



## Cespian (29/5/17)

Kalahari stoommasjien said:


> @Cespian not sure what you're getting at, but Huskeys etc. don't make an apt analogy, that would only work if the Huskey's ran on a circular track where the Huskeys only could move the snow-sled if everything worked together properly, the front Huskeys would need to be tied to the back of the snow-sled etc., actually since you want a 2 X 3 scenario it could work lopsided... but hey, again, a kak analogy.
> As for @Feliks Karp, you should know by now, being the vaper that you are and presumably also having messed around with a mechanical mod, then again, maybe not, that never mind where in your series circuit you measure the current flow, it amazingly is the same everywhere, which pretty much implies that both batteries are being asked to provide the same amount of current at their respective voltage. Now it could be that the batteries don't have an equal voltage, that they inherently are imbalanced from the start (one batterie is a 1.8Ah and the other a 2.5Ah capacity cell, lets say) in which case, eventually the circuit would stop operating because one battery is drained where the second one has some energy left. But in a series circuit both batteries effectively would be asked to provide the same amount of power.



Ok mr. Smart-Ass. My analogy is about the tolerance/strength/endurance of each huskey. Same with batteries, the chemistry of batteries differ, and depending on the circuit, resistance on components (even contact plates) does affect drain/work/effort of each battery/dog. Even though minute, its a thing. I dont have the energy to argue man, I had a cold shower this morning and its apparent that you came here to troll. Peace out. Let a VALUABLE discussion continue.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## BioHAZarD (29/5/17)

why the cold shower?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Cespian (29/5/17)

BioHAZarD said:


> why the cold shower?



Geysers Thermostat busted during the night  so water was pissing from the overflow (or Im assuming its the thermostat lol). Had to shut it off immediately. Managed to save alot of the water in a bin at least so its not all wasted, the banana tree is begging for water.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## BioHAZarD (29/5/17)

Cespian said:


> Geysers Thermostat busted during the night  so water was pissing from the overflow (or Im assuming its the thermostat lol). Had to shut it off immediately. Managed to save alot of the water in a bin at least so its not all wasted, the banana tree is begging for water.


That sucks  I can't function without a hot shower in the morning

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Cespian (29/5/17)

BioHAZarD said:


> That sucks  I can't function without a hot shower in the morning



Me too, cold and miserable right now. You know, these first world problems haha

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Kalahari stoommasjien (29/5/17)

> Ok mr. Smart-Ass. My analogy is about the tolerance/strength/endurance of each huskey. Same with batteries, the chemistry of batteries differ, and depending on the circuit, resistance on components (even contact plates) does affect drain/work/effort of each battery/dog. Even though minute, its a thing. I dont have the energy to argue man, I had a cold shower this morning and its apparent that you came here to troll. Peace out. Let a VALUABLE discussion continue.


We'll let's see, I'll shoot 5 of your Huskies, the 6th one has enough strength and endurance to drag 5 dead Huskies and a snow-sled around, that sounds feasible, now lets replace the Huskies in your scenario with 6 X 18650 Cells since its a parallel and series circuit combined, the analogy to the original scenario is already knackered, now if I take 5 cells and make them open circuit (kill the Huskies) the single remaining cell would not, never mind how much power it has available let the current continue to flow... so, Mr even Smarter-Ass, your analogy tripped over itself and had a cold shower, it seems...


----------



## Cespian (29/5/17)

Kalahari stoommasjien said:


> We'll let's see, I'll shoot 5 of your Huskies, the 6th one has enough strength and endurance to drag 5 dead Huskies and a snow-sled around, that sounds feasible, now lets replace the Huskies in your scenario with 6 X 18650 Cells since its a parallel and series circuit combined, the analogy to the original scenario is already knackered, now if I take 5 cells and make them open circuit (kill the Huskies) the single remaining cell would not, never mind how much power it has available let the current continue to flow... so, Mr even Smarter-Ass, your analogy tripped over itself and had a cold shower, it seems...

Reactions: Winner 2 | Funny 2


----------



## aktorsyl (29/5/17)

So other than using Google, reddit and huskie-logic (seriously, huskies?), can we ask an electrical engineer?
Yes, we can.
I've sent this question off to our inhouse elec.eng. to see what he says.
I have no bloody clue why people choose to stir and fight over every little thing sometimes. Will report back when I have an answer to the original question.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


----------



## Kalahari stoommasjien (29/5/17)

> <SNIP> the chemistry of batteries differ, and depending on the circuit, resistance on components (even contact plates) does affect drain/work/effort of each battery <SNIP>


This has some merit, but none of this would imply, that in a series circuit the cell that is 1st, (what does that actually even mean? the one closest to the positive side of the circuit? that would be the last, since convention states that electrons do the moving, thus that would be the last cell, the 1st one would be the one whose negative end is connected to the circuit, surely) does any more work gets "hit harder" than any of the other cells in the circuit.
As for cells differing, certainly 100% true, remember having 2 cells standing upright next to each other and you bumped the one, accidentally and it fell over, now the two cells, which maybe were pretty identical to start off with, are less identical, because the one cell got a shock, it fell over and I'd imagine has a slightly reduced capacity.
Since a lot of people run *POWER*, 80W is not unheard of and we're talking about predominantly 2 cell mods, lets call it around 8Volt for a pair of freshly charged 18650's in series and with the aforementioned 80W, we'd be looking at 10Amperes current flow. Then a fairly negligible under most conditions extra 0.2Ohm series resistance will have an impact, but it won't "hit" the one cell harder than the next, since we were talking about a series circuit. Now if we were talking about a parallel circuit, from a battery perspective then things look a whole lot different, since the contacts and wiring going to one cell, could significantly add to the resistance that this cell may be seeing compared to its neighbour. There, rotating cells does make a whole lot of sense.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## BubiSparks (29/5/17)

My Avatar might give a hint to my background.... @Feliks Karp, your statement that the first battery gets hit harder is fundamentally incorrect...

First from which end for a start????


----------



## Feliks Karp (29/5/17)

BubiSparks said:


> My Avatar might give a hint to my background.... @Feliks Karp, your statement that the first battery gets hit harder is fundamentally incorrect...
> 
> First from which end for a start????




I actually addressed this, and yes it is a misnomer from my side. You however are one of the people who do tend to reply with educational and informative posts.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Thanks 1


----------



## Andre (29/5/17)

I have no idea about the how, but have read hundreds of post in forums/sites all over the world. They all recommend that married batteries should be rotated inside the mod. I suspect there is some facts behind these recommendations, even if it does not make much of a difference.


----------



## aktorsyl (29/5/17)

Andre said:


> I have no idea about the how, but have read hundreds of post in forums/sites all over the world. They all recommend that married batteries should be rotated inside the mod. I suspect there is some facts behind these recommendations, even if it does not make much of a difference.


Well sure, but in the middle ages people also religiously suggested all over the place that putting dried flowers in your shirt pocket will stop you from getting sick 
Not ripping at you here at all, @Andre - just couldn't resist the comparison

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Andre (29/5/17)

aktorsyl said:


> Well sure, but in the middle ages people also religiously suggested all over the place that putting dried flowers in your shirt pocket will stop you from getting sick
> Not ripping at you here at all, @Andre - just couldn't resist the comparison


Hehe, it might well be the case.


----------



## Christos (29/5/17)

In theory, there shouldnt be a noticeable change or any issues with batteries in the same place.
From experience though its totally different. The battery that makes contact with the atty seems to drain faster than the one that makes contact to the button.
e.g Atty battery will be 4.0v and button battery is 3.8V.
2 New batteries in the noisy cricket v1 and the battery volts are the same voltage after use.

I think ive had the current batteries in there for 6 months and have never changed position etc.

Its possibly an age related wear thing but I dont have the patience to verify this again...


----------



## Kuhlkatz (29/5/17)

Something we need to consider is that Li-Ion cells are used in fixed configurations in a number of devices where it is not possible to move them around. Notebooks, Power Tools, medical equipment to name but a few. Once inside a battery pack, they are usually bonded with spot-welded connector strips and stay that way for their entire lifetime. Granted, they are not always required to deliver the power we demand from vaping, but they are never rotated, and used in that same configuration for years.

LiPo cells in RC models deliver very high power, but modellers typically employ better balance charging devices to charge them up and keep them balanced during every single charge cycle. They are also normally wired in a fixed configuration for commonly 2 or 3, but up to 6 cell configurations - 2S, 3S, 4S & 6S. In addition to this, they are sometimes wired in fixed parallel configs on top of the the series cells - e.g. 3S2P = two of ( 3 x series cells ) wired in parallel, providing the nominal 11.1 v (3.7 x 3) but also effectively increasing the total capacity (mAh) and the maximum output load current / ampere rating due to the parallel wiring.

If we look at the vaper's problem objectively, it is a well-know fact that the item that gets the LEAST attention on most modern mods, is the charge circuits. That is why all the manufacturers recommend that you charge them externally and not in the mod. DNA devices using LiPos should be the exception here, but they also seem to have their issues. It seems that mod makers are far more interested in nice features and 'moar powerr' for the OUTPUT side of the mod, but couldn't give two hoots about the INPUT side of things. 

The recommendation to swap them around more than likely stems from an assumption that you *will possibly charge them in the mod*. Some mods do boast 'balanced' charge circuitry, but in reality the batteries end up at different final voltages when the cycle is done. This is simply verified if you take a reading, swap them round and take another reading. In most cases they will likely not display the same voltage for each cell before and after the move. On my Predator 228 they are damn close when charged IN the mod, but when charged externally, they are around 0.05v to 0.1v out. Swap them and they change again... ( a quick check just now was 3.92v and 3.94v, and 3.90v and 3.96v after I swapped them ). I sure as hell hope that the same 'meter' is not used to decide where to charge them up to and where to eventually cut off the charging.

In a series circuit, there are a number of factors that would affect the discharge rate of each battery. Internal resistance, age, voltage and charged capacity with respect to partners etc.. Like a chain where the weakest link is always the one to break first, the battery that is always charged lower than the others, yet expected to deliver the same current as the other batteries, is likely going to be the one that always runs hotter, discharge faster, fail first and not live as long as its neighbours.
If you rotate them and there are small discrepancies in the individual charge circuits, you at least offset them over the entire lifespan of the batteries, and you will also offset the wear and tear across them.

It's a similar concept to the recommended rotation of the tires on your car to keep the treads and wear pattern even, but most of us don't do that either, do we?

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1 | Informative 6


----------



## Feliks Karp (29/5/17)

Kuhlkatz said:


> Something we need to consider is that Li-Ion cells are used in fixed configurations in a number of devices where it is not possible to move them around. Notebooks, Power Tools, medical equipment to name but a few. Once inside a battery pack, they are usually bonded with spot-welded connector strips and stay that way for their entire lifetime. Granted, they are not always required to deliver the power we demand from vaping, but they are never rotated, and used in that same configuration for years.
> 
> LiPo cells in RC models deliver very high power, but modellers typically employ better balance charging devices to charge them up and keep them balanced during every single charge cycle. They are also normally wired in a fixed configuration for commonly 2 or 3, but up to 6 cell configurations - 2S, 3S, 4S & 6S. In addition to this, they are sometimes wired in fixed parallel configs on top of the the series cells - e.g. 3S2P = two of ( 3 x series cells ) wired in parallel, providing the nominal 11.1 v (3.7 x 3) but also effectively increasing the total capacity (mAh) and the maximum output load current / ampere rating due to the parallel wiring.
> 
> ...



Wish I could give you two ratings. Thank you , this is the kind of response I appreciate, it's well thought out, educational and encompassing of various aspects of the problem, while maintaining a level head . Value added to the forum and community at large.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Thanks 1


----------



## Kuhlkatz (29/5/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> Wish I could give you two ratings. Thank you , this is the kind of response I appreciate, it's well thought out, educational and encompassing of various aspects of the problem, while maintaining a level head . Value added to the forum and community at large.



Haha, but it's still TL;DR ?  Main message in that case is 'Right or wrong, just rotate them anyway and stop moaning about it !'

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Silver (29/5/17)

Thanks @Kuhlkatz !
That was great and informative


----------



## Feliks Karp (29/5/17)

Kuhlkatz said:


> Haha, but it's still TL;DR ?  Main message in that case is 'Right or wrong, just rotate them anyway and stop moaning about it !'



I'd rather spend 5 min reading something that was constructed with the intent of informing than waste 5 secs with something that's trash.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Strontium (29/5/17)

I didn't understand it but you seem to know what you're talking about, so I'll just rotate my batteries.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Nightwalker (30/5/17)

Guys. Chill on personal attacks. I'm the one that stirs up nonsense. Don't take that away from me

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 4


----------



## Darryn Du Plessis (30/5/17)

BioHAZarD said:


> As jy dom is moet jy k@k
> 
> Sent from my Note 4


nahr.. if you're dumb and someone saw that and didn't tell you, who's really leading the dumbness _> in any given context. 

If you can see someone's a dom---n---- you sell him a product he can't afford - firstly - then you don't direct them on how to use it - then, you also sold it without a cover - and let the owner misuse it - 
You're the one still responsible for the misuse of the item - Which you just helped the smart character buy.

Although, he's also struggling to listen to advice =- in which you did then warn him - 
Why not give him some examples with the many previous cases of Lithium cells going up in temperature/ till it e-vent-ually vents' =- 

You're still the one that didn't give appropriate advice - of Product-handling - product management to make him fully steer clear of this -- 
=
@Nightwalker 

Vendors should treat all their clients as younguns - Explain battery safety on selling point - 
To try avoid this; don't give them their products till they sign a disclaimer to accept battery failure as a sign of their own behaviour AFTER sale then/ if they use their cells irresponsibly out of their own free will;

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## craigb (30/5/17)

Darryn Du Plessis said:


> nahr.. if you're dumb and someone saw that and didn't tell you, who's really leading the dumbness _> in any given context.
> 
> If you can see someone's a dom---n---- you sell him a product he can't afford - firstly - then you don't direct them on how to use it - then, you also sold it without a cover - and let the owner misuse it -
> You're the one still responsible for the misuse of the item - Which you just helped the smart character buy.
> ...


Let the idiots do themselves in and strengthen the gene pool. All this Molly coddling to tyrannical toddlers is creating a generation of self centered obnoxious brats. 

The guy in the OP should have, apparently, known better. Respect your batteries, respect your vape, respect to yourself.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Darryn Du Plessis (30/5/17)

When I saw battery imbalance on my Rx200 - I immediately made the decision to buy an external charger - Never had that again ;

@craigb 
Clearest cut difference between RX200 and DNA 200  - But for someone dumb - which do you think they would buy

Reactions: Disagree 2


----------



## craigb (30/5/17)

Darryn Du Plessis said:


> When I saw battery imbalance on my Rx200 - I immediately made the decision to buy an external charger - Never had that again ;
> 
> @craigb
> Clearest cut difference between RX200 and DNA 200  - But for someone dumb - which do you think they would buy


Depends which one they could afford.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## aktorsyl (30/5/17)

Darryn Du Plessis said:


> When I saw battery imbalance on my Rx200 - I immediately made the decision to buy an external charger - Never had that again ;
> 
> @craigb
> Clearest cut difference between RX200 and DNA 200  - But for someone dumb - which do you think they would buy


You're not seriously saying someone is dumb for not buying a DNA200, are you?  I mean if it's better, great - it also costs more. Not everyone can afford that.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Darryn Du Plessis (30/5/17)

aktorsyl said:


> You're not seriously saying someone is dumb for not buying a DNA200, are you?  I mean if it's better, great - it also costs more. Not everyone can afford that.


@craigb We're talking about battery imbalance here; The DNA was built for USB charging. the rx200 WAS NOT; yet WHICH ONE do you think is being charged the most through USB?

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## craigb (30/5/17)

Darryn Du Plessis said:


> @craigb We're talking about battery imbalance here; The DNA was built for USB charging. the rx200 WAS NOT; yet WHICH ONE do you think is being charged the most through USB?


The one more people can afford? I dont know. I don't do market research and I am not omniscient.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


----------



## Nightwalker (30/5/17)

Darryn Du Plessis said:


> nahr.. if you're dumb and someone saw that and didn't tell you, who's really leading the dumbness _> in any given context.
> 
> If you can see someone's a dom---n---- you sell him a product he can't afford - firstly - then you don't direct them on how to use it - then, you also sold it without a cover - and let the owner misuse it -
> You're the one still responsible for the misuse of the item - Which you just helped the smart character buy.
> ...


Right. I'm not a vendor. Two. I didn't sell a regulated mod with built in safety features. Three. This is all user fault, not vendor. 4. When he bought it and showed me, I told him to get external charger. 5 battery safety is comon sense and a person can find 10000000s of videos and write ups on line.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Darryn Du Plessis (30/5/17)

Nightwalker said:


> Right. I'm not a vendor. Two. I didn't sell a regulated mod with built in safety features. Three. This is all user fault, not vendor. 4. When he bought it and showed me, I told him to get external charger. 5 battery safety is comon sense and a person can find 10000000s of videos and write ups on line.


And you told us how much of a moron he/she is- but you didn't recommend all this to them? 

Given scenario: user's of computers in the UK can easily google the problem they are facing, BUT they pick up the phone and call IT first, why? because that's their process; the way they think first is not going to change, because we're like a lifeline. 

Point: you cannot think the way the smart/dumbass person does think because you're not them. 

Your recommendations of a charger could also accompany the dangers he would face if not doing as you told them.


----------



## Nightwalker (30/5/17)

Darryn Du Plessis said:


> And you told us how much of a moron he/she is- but you didn't recommend all this to them?
> 
> Given scenario: user's of computers in the UK can easily google the problem they are facing, BUT they pick up the phone and call IT first, why? because that's their process; the way they think first is not going to change, because we're like a lifeline.
> 
> ...


Actually you are so right. I really should go and lecture everyone about vaping. Then stop buy the tobacco shops then lecture them. Then stop ay the petrol station and lecture everyone on road safety.
Dude. Arguing with me for giving him basic advice on vaping is one thing but I'm not his mother.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Darryn Du Plessis (30/5/17)

Well you're not his judge either. 
Why are you publishing his foul attempts at battery safety. 
Just to mock a fella? 
Go live and love your own life because you're NOT in his shoes.



Nightwalker said:


> Actually you are so right. I really should go and lecture everyone about vaping. Then stop buy the tobacco shops then lecture them. Then stop ay the petrol station and lecture everyone on road safety.
> Dude. Arguing with me for giving him basic advice on vaping is one thing but I'm not his mother.


----------



## BioHAZarD (30/5/17)

Darryn Du Plessis said:


> Well you're not his judge either.
> Why are you publishing his foul attempts at battery safety.
> Just to mock a fella?
> Go live and love your own life because you're NOT in his shoes.


Dude, go away. Nobody wants to play with you

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Funny 2


----------



## Silver (30/5/17)

Hey guys

Please remember forum rules - *play the ball, not the man*

If you want to get personal and start having words against each other, rather do that on another platform or privately - please don't do that on the public forum. 

Thank you

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


----------



## Hardtail1969 (16/6/17)

Aside here, on the case of batteries with torn insulation.

I recall years and years ago, going to the old science museum in downtown pretoria on some school trip...

They had this interesting static electricity generator, that used some kind of belt, i forget what kind, but it created electricity.

The guide explained, that by holding on to the one part, and letting the machine run, loaded you with a charge, like a battery.

Then if you touched a friend, a spark would happen, as you discharged.

What they also demonstrated was how this discharge could occur at a distance, in other words without physical contact between the two charged and uncharged surfaces.

Could something like this be the cause of the malfunction?

Sent from my SM-A700FD using Tapatalk


----------

