# Vapers to be classified as smokers



## X-Calibre786 (10/10/19)

https://mybroadband.co.za/news/science/322746-vapers-to-be-classified-as-smokers.html

And on it goes.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Can relate 1 | Informative 3


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## KarlDP (10/10/19)

Eish.. This is just wrong man.. Same when Discovery Health came to my work to do wellness day. Lady asks me if im a smoker while filling in the forms. I said no, i vape. She tells me no, i am a smoker and that is how she will fill in the form. Then she still has the odasity to ask how many stinkies a day would i estimate.. LOL.. sheesh. Needless to say that stuffed up my wellness scorecard good and solid.

Reactions: Like 4


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## M.Adhir (10/10/19)

KarlDP said:


> Eish.. This is just wrong man.. Same when Discovery Health came to my work to do wellness day. Lady asks me if im a smoker while filling in the forms. I said no, i vape. She tells me no, i am a smoker and that is how she will fill in the form. Then she still has the odasity to ask how many stinkies a day would i estimate.. LOL.. sheesh. Needless to say that stuffed up my wellness scorecard good and solid.



Sanlam, Discovery, Liberty have all kept me classified me as a smoker as well when i did my policy reviews last year.
One of the three (cant remember which) counted my estimated number of vape breaks as average number of cigarettes for the day.
This after telling them i've been off cig's for over a year at the time.

Reactions: Can relate 1 | Informative 3


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## Hooked (10/10/19)

It's ludicrous that medical insurance regards vaping as smoking!! When you're asked if you smoke just say "No" - and that IS the truth!! You don't smoke!

Someone should take these companies to court. It would make a fine court case as there is no way that vaping is the same as smoking.

Fortunately for me when I returned to SA and rejoined Discovery, I had given up smoking about 2 years prior and I hadn't started vaping (I was chewing Nicorette). But even so, on the form they asked why I had given up smoking!! I replied, "because I wanted to" which was the truth!

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## ivc_mixer (10/10/19)

My question to all these big insurers is this. If you want to classify vapers as smokers, and this is purely due to the nicotine we're getting in, then are you classifying people who use nicotine patches, or the gum, under the same? If it's not only due to the nicotine but due to the fact that we're inhaling something, then are you classifying people who use asthma pumps under the same (note that this is due to asthma medication using PG as a carrier)?

Anything to save money and have an excuse not to pay out.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4 | Winner 1


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## KarlDP (10/10/19)

So then people that chew tobacco, are they then also automatically classified as smokers? Or is it purely because of the inhale/exhale action.

You see, this can go on and on and on and on... Its absolutely rediculous. As @Hooked said, now i just have to start to say no on paperwork and interviews about my vaping. And if they pick up the nic in my blood, i'll tell them i mainline that stuff i'm that hardcore.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 3


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## Hooked (10/10/19)

https://www.enca.com/news/gems-finally-pays-out-doctors-cancer-treatment

Most of the time we don't fight big companies, but this South African doctor took Gems to court over their refusal to pay for possibly life-saving medication. "[Gems] initially refused to pay, saying the treatment would not save his life ..."

Can you believe it?? 

The good news is that the doctor won the case - and he's still alive!

Reactions: Like 3


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## Silver (10/10/19)

Hooked said:


> It's ludicrous that medical insurance regards vaping as smoking!! When you're asked if you smoke just say "No" - and that IS the truth!! You don't smoke!
> 
> Someone should take these companies to court. It would make a fine court case as there is no way that vaping is the same as smoking.
> 
> Fortunately for me when I returned to SA and rejoined Discovery, I had given up smoking about 2 years prior and I hadn't started vaping (I was chewing Nicorette). But even so, on the form they asked why I had given up smoking!! I replied, "because I wanted to" which was the truth!




I agree, it’s ridiculous that insurers tend to lump vapers and smokers in the same boat
Would be great if they could somehow classify the risk according to the harm, so a Vaper is only slightly more risky than a non smoker non Vaper.

I think one of the issues could be that insurers struggle to analyse the risks of vaping.
It’s still relatively new. Although research suggests vaping is much healthier, there is still uncertainty as to how much healthier. So maybe they just default to treating it as smoking for now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Chickenstrip (10/10/19)

Just a warning... If they ask you if you smoke... And you vape nicotine... And you say no. The benefits to you are lower premiums. Now if you develop a lung disease and you've told them you don't smoke but they discover you've been using a vape -They will find out... Well, guess who's entire policy becomes invalid. All those payments *Poof*

Be honest with them. Even if you don't agree with how they handle things. In their defense, vaping has not bee proven to be safe. The industry is unregulated so anyone can put anything in e liquid. From a financial standpoint it makes absolutely perfect sense to classify you as a smoker.

Yes vaping is not smoking. But it is not harm free. Why should they be financially liable for you if you're willing to go and buy R20 juice from China town and puff it till you turn blue? They can't tell you where to buy your vape goods.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## DoubleD (10/10/19)

Chickenstrip said:


> Just a warning... If they ask you if you smoke... And you vape nicotine... And you say no. The benefits to you are lower premiums. Now if you develop a lung disease and you've told them you don't smoke but they discover you've been using a vape -They will find out... Well, guess who's entire policy becomes invalid. All those payments *Poof*
> 
> Be honest with them. Even if you don't agree with how they handle things. In their defense, vaping has not bee proven to be safe. The industry is unregulated so anyone can put anything in e liquid. From a financial standpoint it makes absolutely perfect sense to classify you as a smoker.
> 
> Yes vaping is not smoking. But it is not harm free. Why should they be financially liable for you if you're willing to go and buy R20 juice from China town and puff it till you turn blue? They can't tell you where to buy your vape goods.



jeez if you can afford insurance but buy china mall juice, then there's something wrong with you   (i get what chickenstrip is saying though)

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (10/10/19)

How do you know what is in your R250 for 60ml juice? Or where and how hygienic its made? How do you know the wellknown juice maker uses legit flavourings? 
Lets say the juice maker is legit and order everything from wellknown diy suppliers. How do you know these suppliers give the juicemaker hygienic stuff, they buy in big quantaties, and pour/bottle into smaller. How do you know how and where do they do it? How do you know these suppliers use the right stuff and ingredients? And if their suppliers do everything legit? It just goes on and on.

There is no control, no regulations, in SA anyone can do as he/she pleases in the vape industry. You cant say how bad chinatown liquid is if you dont even know whats in any other juice.
Its one big timebomb waiting to explode.

But hey read the forum and see the uproar everytime regulations are discussed

Reactions: Like 2


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## Hooked (10/10/19)

Chickenstrip said:


> Just a warning... If they ask you if you smoke... And you vape nicotine... And you say no. The benefits to you are lower premiums. Now if you develop a lung disease and you've told them you don't smoke but they discover you've been using a vape -They will find out... Well, guess who's entire policy becomes invalid. All those payments *Poof*
> 
> Be honest with them. Even if you don't agree with how they handle things. In their defense, vaping has not bee proven to be safe. The industry is unregulated so anyone can put anything in e liquid. From a financial standpoint it makes absolutely perfect sense to classify you as a smoker.
> 
> Yes vaping is not smoking. But it is not harm free. Why should they be financially liable for you if you're willing to go and buy R20 juice from China town and puff it till you turn blue? They can't tell you where to buy your vape goods.



@Chickenstrip I would rather they apply higher premiums for vapers than for non-smokers, as @Silver suggested, but it's not right for them to classify vaping as smoking. Then they may as well classify people who drink Coke as drinkers, but I've never been asked how many Cokes I drink a day. And quite honestly, Coke is much worse than a glass or two of wine or whisky.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Resistance (10/10/19)

I would have said the same but. I would have classified them as something worse and walked away


ivc_mixer said:


> My question to all these big insurers is this. If you want to classify vapers as smokers, and this is purely due to the nicotine we're getting in, then are you classifying people who use nicotine patches, or the gum, under the same? If it's not only due to the nicotine but due to the fact that we're inhaling something, then are you classifying people who use asthma pumps under the same (note that this is due to asthma medication using PG as a carrier)?
> 
> Anything to save money and have an excuse not to pay out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance (10/10/19)

I need a nicotine label for my car. I vape in it so it contains nicotine.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DoubleD (10/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> How do you know what is in your R250 for 60ml juice? Or where and how hygienic its made? How do you know the wellknown juice maker uses legit flavourings?
> Lets say the juice maker is legit and order everything from wellknown diy suppliers. How do you know these suppliers give the juicemaker hygienic stuff, they buy in big quantaties, and pour/bottle into smaller. How do you know how and where do they do it? How do you know these suppliers use the right stuff and ingredients? And if their suppliers do everything legit? It just goes on and on.
> 
> There is no control, no regulations, in SA anyone can do as he/she pleases in the vape industry. You cant say how bad chinatown liquid is if you dont even know whats in any other juice.
> ...



ISO ratings?


either way, I diy and know what I'm putting in my juice 

Edit: nvm I see you included DIY suppliers, I might have popcorn lung now

Reactions: Like 3


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## Resistance (10/10/19)

For insurance it works on a rating they give you on life expectancy and risk. Smokers obviously has the worst rating and very few insurers want to take the risk of losing out on monthly installments before said date of expiry. So you pay more because you could die earlier than expected which to them is any time soon. So if they classify a vaper as a smoker the risk is obviously on you, which you pay for and it means less risk to them.
the money they pay out is nothing compared to the money they gain if you live say twenty years longer than they estimated you would.

They would charge you more for the next (however many years you live)with less risk to them..disclamer...the views are my own and expressed as best I could ,and its still my views and it will stay that way etc,etc,etc.


ivc_mixer said:


> My question to all these big insurers is this. If you want to classify vapers as smokers, and this is purely due to the nicotine we're getting in, then are you classifying people who use nicotine patches, or the gum, under the same? If it's not only due to the nicotine but due to the fact that we're inhaling something, then are you classifying people who use asthma pumps under the same (note that this is due to asthma medication using PG as a carrier)?
> 
> Anything to save money and have an excuse not to pay out.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Resistance (11/10/19)

Everyone that uses the road should also renew there drivers licence this will include pedestrians as they utilise the road accident fund when they meet in a fender bender.

lough out loud.(disclaimer.this is a joke but some politician might read it and make use of this in a bad way)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance (11/10/19)

All roads should contain nicotine warnings, vaper use it and it might contain nicotine...(disclaimer...also a joke,but im trying to point out how stupid the people are that insists on nicotine warnings on new hardware not containing nicotine.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Room Fogger (11/10/19)

Resistance said:


> I need a nicotine label for my car. I vape in it so it contains nicotine.


If you find someone that makes them, let me know. I may need iron-ons for my clothes as well as they contain me.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Timwis (11/10/19)

M.Adhir said:


> Sanlam, Discovery, Liberty have all kept me classified me as a smoker as well when i did my policy reviews last year.
> One of the three (cant remember which) counted my estimated number of vape breaks as average number of cigarettes for the day.
> This after telling them i've been off cig's for over a year at the time.


So glad i'm in the UK. Here if the doctor asks if you smoke and you tell him/her no, i use to but now i vape they congratulate you and say well done and on any form being a vaper you are classed as a non-smoker!

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 5


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## Room Fogger (11/10/19)

Timwis said:


> So glad i'm in the UK. Here if the doctor asks if you smoke and you tell him/her no, i use to but now i vape they congratulate you and say well done and on any form being a vaper you are classed as a non-smoker!


That is great news @Timwis , just goes to show what can be done in all spheres of life if everyone gets the correct information and there is a willingness to incentivize someone who makes a huge decision to improve their lifestyle and lower their medical risk.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Silver (11/10/19)

Timwis said:


> So glad i'm in the UK. Here if the doctor asks if you smoke and you tell him/her no, i use to but now i vape they congratulate you and say well done and on any form being a vaper you are classed as a non-smoker!



That is great to hear @Timwis !!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Resistance (11/10/19)

@Stompie design challenge for you bro!



Room Fogger said:


> If you find someone that makes them, let me know. I may need iron-ons for my clothes as well as they contain me.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Resistance (11/10/19)

Timwis said:


> So glad i'm in the UK. Here if the doctor asks if you smoke and you tell him/her no, i use to but now i vape they congratulate you and say well done and on any form being a vaper you are classed as a non-smoker!


there used to be a time when SA was in order.now all the africans want to be american henve the term african-american.
(Sarcasm sucks)

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Resistance (11/10/19)

Imagine the roadsigns...beware! This road are frequently used by vapers and may contain nicotine.please be cautious @the smash and grab hotspot if they smash your window you might be in danger of second hand vape!.(disclaimer...I know my jokes are in the wrong thread.sorry)

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Yuvir Punwasi (11/10/19)

Okay guys so I’m at Liberty life Umhlanga head office and I do income protection for clients yes,I Vape and dumb people there tell me how bad vaping is while holding their cancer sticks,it doesn’t bother me and when I do life cover for clients, unfortunately us vapers are classified as smokers … annoying as hell…… I did cover for a lady that Hardly Vapes and she is still classed as a smoker even though she Vapes 2mg nicotine and the rates pick up a bit , almost adds R200 to R250 on a smoker stays which is ridiculous so it doesn’t matter if you smoke 40 cancer sticks or vape 5ml of juice we considered smokers which is wrong  smoking contains tons of harmful ingredients while vaping is a few ingredients (vg,pg,flavor concentrates and nicotine) I honestly feel it’s really unfair, we need to be classed as vapers coz we not as dirty lunged as a cigarette smoker however we not as a saint as the non smokers … we closer to the non smoker than the cigarette stinkers though … just my 2cents guys

Reactions: Like 4


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## MrGSmokeFree (20/2/20)

Today I got a call from my broker before he send me the e-mail regarding a new life insurance policy. 

Ummm my cholesterol (Perfect) weight( perfect) and blood pressure( perfect) "BUT sorry you are a "smoker"( I have not touched a stinky in 3 years) wording on policy and for that you are a bigger risk so you have to pay more." 

Why can't they  put the word "vaper" on the policy instead of "smoker" I vape my Tobacco vape juice I don't smoke my vape juice people

I find it sad that in our country they still see vaping and smoking as the same thing. 

Maybe one day we will be seen as vapers and not smokers.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Winner 1


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## Resistance (20/2/20)

MrGSmokeFree said:


> View attachment 190497
> 
> Today I got a call from my broker before he send me the e-mail regarding a new life insurance policy.
> 
> ...



My friend the problem is,we as vapers need to do something together and challenge them.
After all we can easily get a few thousand signatures on a petition. All we need is someone to start the process.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Puff the Magic Dragon (20/2/20)

I wonder how they define a smoker ?


Definition of smoker noun from the Oxford Advanced American Dictionary


*"smoker*
noun
/ˈsmoʊkər/


a person who smokes tobacco regularly
a *heavy smoker* (= someone who smokes a lot)
a *smoker's cough*
a *cigarette/cigar/pipe smoker"*


Not a word about vapour, PG/VG, flavourings or even nic.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Resistance (20/2/20)

Resistance said:


> My friend the problem is,we as vapers need to do something together and challenge them.
> After all we can easily get a few thousand signatures on a petition. All we need is someone to start the process.


So who is the nominee to start the process?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Adephi (20/2/20)

Resistance said:


> So who is the nominee to start the process?



We have insurance companies and policy plans for any disease or condition under the sun. 

Somebody should start one for vapers. If only the vaping industry was big enough I'm sure it would have been done already.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Resistance (20/2/20)

Adephi said:


> We have insurance companies and policy plans for any disease or condition under the sun.
> 
> Somebody should start one for vapers. If only the vaping industry was big enough I'm sure it would have been done already.



How they work it is if you live longer and pay the same as a smoker you will pay more per month and you'll pay more installments over a longer period of time because your not dying sooner from tobacco or smoking related illnesses.
So the longer they make you pay more the more their profits.
And people have challenged them,but that people challenged them alone.
For those that still smoke it makes sense to pay the extra untill they quit and for those that have quit and only vape it's daylight robbery.
It's like that thing where you drive safer on the roads your car insurance is lower,but the same people that drive safer is causing road rage and accidents because they drive for themselves and not the other road users.
Then what happens is BMW and Ford Ranger drivers get agro and drive like shit

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance (20/2/20)

Adephi said:


> We have insurance companies and policy plans for any disease or condition under the sun.
> 
> Somebody should start one for vapers. If only the vaping industry was big enough I'm sure it would have been done already.



True ,more people will quit smoking and start vaping.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hooked (21/2/20)

We need someone to take the insurance companies to court and present a linguistic argument. Since there is no tobacco in vape juice, a vaper cannot be classified as a smoker. However, at the end of the day all that will be gained is another clause re vaping, so what would we have gained?

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrGSmokeFree (21/2/20)



Reactions: Winner 2


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## Adephi (21/2/20)

Hooked said:


> We need someone to take the insurance companies to court and present a linguistic argument. Since there is no tobacco in vape juice, a vaper cannot be classified as a smoker. However, at the end of the day all that will be gained is another clause re vaping, so what would we have gained?



Unfortunately our justice system is always in favour of who can afford the better lawyer.

Taking on 1 insurance company will be costly and we might get some representation, but this would require something like a class action that will banckrupt the whole industry. The courts unfortunately will not be the way to go.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Riaz_sh (21/2/20)

you should state that you have not smoked for 3 years

they dont need to know that you vape

vaping is not the same as smoking


vaper
noun [ C ]

uk 
person who vapes, especially by using e-cigarettes:


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## zadiac (21/2/20)

Riaz_sh said:


> you should state that you have not smoked for 3 years
> 
> they dont need to know that you vape
> 
> ...



They can have your blood tested and they test for nicotine. So if you vape with nicotine, they'll pick it up and say you lied. Policy void. If you don't vape with nicotine, then this might work.

Reactions: Agree 2


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