# And that's exactly why we can't have nice things....



## NOOB (20/7/19)

Good afternoon all. I know I haven't been posting a lot lately, but between finishing my studies and other personal matters, I just have not had the time.

What I have to share with you today is somewhat worrisome and immediately had my blood boiling when I heard it.

So, the wife occupies a pretty senior position at one of SA's prestigious Private Schools. When she got home yesterday, she told me that they have become aware of the fact that, between classes, scholars are walking around on school grounds VAPING!!!! To put the icing on the cake, they are vaping on Cannabis oil, which they either mix/dilute with e-liquid, or just they just vape it like it is, straight up.

I immediately reacted by saying "And that's exactly why we can't have nice things..." 

I mean, kids aren't even supposed to be able to purchase a vape mod or e-liquid due to the fact that they are under aged. Which means, we have two possible scenarios here:

Scenario one:
Yes, sure, these are Private School kids, which means that their parents probably provide them with a credit/debit card with some pocket money (don't get me wrong, I don't have an issue with the fact that parents provide their kids with a credit/debit card. If you are in a position to do so, good for you). Now, if they provide their kids with either a credit, or debit card, surely they peruse the statements to see what their kids are spending money on? So, if the kid bought the device/juice online, surely their parents would pick it up. 

Scenario two:
These kids could possibly have visited a vape shop of sorts and would have bought the device/juice in store.

There is also a third scenario where a parent possible bought the device/juice for their kid.

Now, whichever one, or all of the above are true.... ARE YOU SHITTING ME?????

As a parent myself, I would peruse the statement from my kid's credit/debit card and if I find shady transactions, some questions will be asked!!
As a parent, if I find that my kid had visited a vape shop to purchase a device/juice again, some questions would be asked!!
Either of the above would result in me confiscating said device/juice for my own personal pleasure along with the credit/debit card. Whatever your pocket money was, would be cut by 75%, end of story.

Personally, I honestly don't care which of the above scenarios have played out and resulted in a scholar being in possession of a vape mod/juice. Whether you're a parent or the owner of a vape shop is irrelevant.
INCIDENTS LIKE THIS IS EXACTLY WHY GOVERNMENTS ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE LOOKING AT BANNING VAPE RELATED PRODUCTS!!!

If you are a parent who was able to quit smoking because of vaping, then please, for the love of all things you hold dear, do NOT spoil it for the rest of us by providing you kid with a device/juice.
If your kid purchased a device/juice without your knowledge, then again, please do NOT spoil it for the rest of us. Confiscate the device. End of story!
If you own a vape shop, and you have sold a device/juice to a minor, then buddy, you have just shot yourself in the foot and you care more about a quick buck, than you do the industry.

Look, don't get me wrong, kids will always find interesting ways of getting/doing things (which is why I have not even discussed the Cannabis issue). I am a parent myself and I know that they can be quite crafty when they need to be. However, if you know/suspect that your kid might be using vape related products, please, PLEASE confiscate these products. Governments across the world are LOOKING for reasons to ban vaping.

Let us not give our government a reason to ban the products/industry that we love so much, the industry that could possibly have saved our lives.

I thank you in advance for reading this lengthy post.

*Please note, the views above are my own and at no time were they meant to insult any parent/vape shop. I am not a dominee, so please don't mistake this for a sermon. Also, if the shoe fits, wear it!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 10


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## Amy (20/7/19)

It is a real problem I also spotted kids vaping at malls and in and around town. If I can see a vape shop selling juice and worse cannabis juice to minors I would stop supporting them.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 5


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## VapingAccountant (20/7/19)

This is a big problem considering what's happening the USA at the moment.

Some of us are really passionate about this industry and for good reason, it saved our lives and gave us a sense of community through great channels such as this forum and good people in good vape shop's.

The fact that it can all be pulled from under us at a moments notice should be sobering enough but shady business practices and just a general I don't care attitude seems to prevail.

Stories like these get us all painted with the same brush and it's something we as a community should start taking more seriously if we wish to keep this industry alive and thriving.

Let's not ever loose sight of the fact that we are the custodians of a life saving alternative to the million's of smokers out there.

Thank you @NOOB for bringing this to the fore!!!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (20/7/19)

Hmmm did you smoke or drink alcohol while in school? Did your parents buy it for you? Did they supply you with a credit card? Were you in a private school?


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## NOOB (20/7/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Hmmm did you smoke or drink alcohol while in school? Did your parents buy it for you? Did they supply you with a credit card? Were you in a private school?


Whether I attended a private school, or had a credit card whilst in attendance is irrelevant and based on your comment I think you're missing the point @Jean claude Vaaldamme. To clarify: Governments all over the world are literally *LOOKING* for reasons to ban vaping. Incidents like this just gives them more reason to do so. 
Unfortunately smoking a cigarette, or drinking whilst still at school does not bother government as they gain from the all the taxes they impose on those products.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (21/7/19)

NOOB said:


> Whether I attended a private school, or had a credit card whilst in attendance is irrelevant and based on your comment I think you're missing the point @Jean claude Vaaldamme. To clarify: Governments all over the world are literally *LOOKING* for reasons to ban vaping. Incidents like this just gives them more reason to do so.
> Unfortunately smoking a cigarette, or drinking whilst still at school does not bother government as they gain from the all the taxes they impose on those products.


 I will ask again, did you not smoke or drink in school? Did your parents confiscate your credit card? Confiscate your booze or your smokes? 
Parents who will do these things, kid's will hide it. So there is nothing you can do about it. No hysteria needed. 
There are parents that are drunk everyday, beat their spouses, criminal, racist. Do you think they care if their kids vape? You cant stop it, no hysteria needed. If you were young today, you would probably also vape.
If something is not 100% healthy, regulations and taxes will come, nothing nobody can do about it


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## Room Fogger (21/7/19)

I see your point @Jean claude Vaaldamme , but @NOOB has a point as well with his view of it. So here is my 2 c worth for now.

Kids have access to more cash flow now than previously and different options to spend it, rightly or wrongly. In the end we as parents are still ultimately responsible for this and their behavior, and @NOOB has a point regarding control over their expenses. If I’m paying for it I want to know how you spent it, lunch at Hooters without me is just not on. They will however find a way to obtain that which is Taboo to them, alcohol, biggest guy with darkest beard in class goes to buy, or a parent that wants to “control” the situation. Smokes were always available as it was socially acceptable, even if the sale was not legal, same with vaping. But there were certain implied rules, no drinking or smoking in your uniform, even when smoking in school grounds our ties and blazers were off. At least you still had respect for the name of your school, if nothing else while buggering up your health.

I would rather see a kid vaping, than smoking, my own health history tells me it is safer, irrespective of their income or social status. If they are vaping cannabis oil, then it is a health risk, as oils should not be vaped. Or is it CBD vapable extract that they think is cannabis and therefore think it makes them cool? If it is a cannabis extract, then School rules can and have to be used to discipline where applicable, and if illegal substances are used drug tests can confirm and the necessary steps can be taken to assist the individual. Still not saying it’s acceptable.

Yes, they are posing a threat _to us and them as vapers _with regards to legislation, so why not get someone in to talk and explain the dangers of multiple things to them at the school @NOOB , not just vaping, but also to explain the good of vaping as a stop smoking tool, and explain the pride they should have. Also regarding where they vape, I have to go to a smoking section in certain areas, they vape openly in places, and yes I’ve seen them interacting with security when they are asked to stop or leave, but rebellion and coolness does factor in with this behavior. Maybe some of them are smokers wanting to stop, or ex-smokers, even at that age, but with no sense of responsibility.

I am a parent that quit with vaping, and if I have to give my kids/grandkids a mod and juice to get them off smoking I will do it. Same as with various activities age does not define the risk, what is being done is. But then I also have to educate them regarding what is acceptable legally and socially. You teach someone how to drive, you don’t just give them car keys, same applies for everything else in life, whether it be behavior, acceptance, social norms, health, medication, drugs, food, alcohol etc.

Will their behavior have an impact on legislation, heck yes, therefore education. Will it have an impact on health, positive or negative, maybe, but that risk goes for all of us. To just look at the impact it may have on legislation is a narrow view, same as only looking at acceptability or at what used to be. In the end it will come down to just one thing in my eyes with regards to vaping, harm reduction. If it can get you off smokes, or stop you from starting then I will use everything at my disposal. But then I have to also educate you with regards to the use and acceptable behavior of whatever I do.

It’s Sunday, and I’m not a dominee either, but this sermon is over  , wishing you all a vaping good day. Many happy clouds to all. Again, this is my view, which I feel I’m as entitled to as you are to yours, and please feel free to disagree or agree as much as you want. And if you are offended, then you shouldn’t have read this post.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 4


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (21/7/19)

Well @NOOB said àny kid that vape, mod should be confiscated, credit card taken away and allowance dropped by 75%. Kids should not vape, they going to spoil it for the rest of us.

@Room Fogger say we must educate them responsible vaping even on the benefits of vaping.

So this is the complete opposites. And that the problem in the whole vaping community.
You cant say stop smoking, start vaping. Promote the benefits of vaping, the lifestyle, the fancy flavours, fancy mods, accesories etc. and then in the same breath say kids must not vape? Should they rather smoke, bcause they are going to do one or the other.
If you promote only vaping as a means to stop smoking and then stop vaping also, then its a plausible strategy for all and not for non smokers to start vaping

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jengz (21/7/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Well @NOOB said àny kid that vape, mod should be confiscated, credit card taken away and allowance dropped by 75%. Kids should not vape, they going to spoil it for the rest of us.
> 
> @Room Fogger say we must educate them responsible vaping even on the benefits of vaping.
> 
> ...


Whilst there is some of what you say that I agree with I also disagree with a lot. I don't feel it's ok to promote vaping to those who smoke who are not of age. Rules and regulations need to be respected regardless of which of the two is the better 'evil'.

With vaping improving my life I can honestly say it is the better of the two but still school rules and laws need to be respected. That's the biggest problem we face with the youth of today, they just do t respect the things they should. I smoked at the age of 14. I never smoked at school neither did I in front of any elder even if they were 20. I also acknowledged that it was wrong, and yes we are not all the same but what @NOOB is trying to say is that it's going to hurt the industry and we need ways of sorting it out.

I don't have the answers and don't believe the answers will ever be clear or agreed upon but I feel his worry and concern holds strong ground

Reactions: Like 5


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## StephenE (21/7/19)

Something from left field here...

What exactly would be the problem with kids vaping 0 mg juice?

As someone who has been successfully banting for 4 years, I think vaping has unexplored benefits in aiding kids with sugar addiction.

I’ve often just wanted to hand the mod to my thirteen year old and say, try this! But my ex will probably kill me! (Ironic, as she is a smoker)

To me, the choice between giving a kid a zero nicotine vape instead of a milkshake and a piece of cake, seems obvious. Am I missing something?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## NOOB (21/7/19)

The point I am trying to make is this: If we (as a vaping community) act without thinking, act without care then we are providing our government with enough justification to *BAN* vaping from South Africa in it's entirety!! We will literally be shooting ourselves in the foot. The point that I argued came from an assumption where the minor(s) were vaping, not to quit smoking, but because it seems cool (which, let's face it, is exactly what kids do!). 

I wholeheartedly agree with @Room Fogger. Education is key with the youth and I too, would rather see a kid who vapes, than one who smokes (purely from a health perspective). The wife and I had a debate not too long ago regarding the health implications of vaping. At some point during the discussion she asked whether I would allow my daughter to vape. Without a second's thought, my reply to her was "If there were no nicotine in the juice, YES". This quickfire answer however, does a more than one side to the coin. Yes, from a health perspective, and given a choice between smoking and vaping, my answer to that question is still, without a doubt, YES. Morally though, I would be a fool to just hand my mod to my daughter and say "Here you go, have wee toot then". If she had been on the stinky train, then yes, I would introduce her to vaping. However, seeing as my daughter is only two years old, the answer is no. I am not saying that I would never introduce my daughter to a glass wine, for example, but this will only happen when I feel that she is of the appropriate age, under controlled circumstances and under my watchful eye.
I (me personally) cannot, and will not hand my mod to any kid in an attempt to keep them from looking or ever even thinking about taking up smoking. That there is putting the cart before the horse in my opinion. Who knows, a kid, my kid, your kid, might never even be interested in taking up the nasty habit, so why would I introduce her to something as an alternative if she was never interested in the real macoy to start with? 
And this where I agree with @Room Fogger regarding Education. I'm not just going to hand over my car keys to my daughter and say "There you go, be careful and don't text and drive". HELL NO, I am going to teach her to be responsible first, then teach her how to drive under controlled circumstances whilst also teaching her the rules of the road. 
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that my kid won't ever get up to, or into shit. What I am saying is that we, as parents, as shop owners and, as @VapingAccountant said "the custodians of a life saving alternative to the million's of smokers out there" have a responsibility to ourselves and to the younger generation of "up and coming" smokers, to ensure that this industry does not go down the toilet because of silly, stupid mistakes. 

I also have to agree with @Jengz regarding the rules and regulations being respected. Hypothetically speaking, if, in a couple of years time, I have to introduce my teenage daughter to vaping due to the fact that she has started smoking, then I concede wholeheartedly, I WILL introduce her to vaping. However, there is no way in HELL that I will allow her to vape in public, let alone on school grounds. If I simply have to choose the lesser of two evils, then I will choose vaping every single day of the week and twice on a Sunday, but that is not say that we should give our government a reason to ban vaping. If parents want their kids to vape, then sure go for it, but don't do it in the public eye as this will only hurt every single vaper in South Africa, not the mention the upstanding shop owners out there who are trying to make an honest income.
Simply put, government won't care if you allowed your kid to vape on 0mg juice, you've got no way to prove that it was 0mg and they don't even care if you do have proof. To them it's a reason to ban vaping, end of story.

Now, I don't know about you @Jean claude Vaaldamme, but there is no way in hell that I am going to give our government a reason to ban vaping on a silver platter.
There is no better way for me to explain my point of view, so if you still don't understand what I am on about, then I simply can't help you to understand.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## StephenE (22/7/19)

Hey @NOOB, I can see that you are coming from a good place and because I think this is a good and important debate I'm just going to throw some more thoughts out.

I agree with a lot that you are saying and some things I don't. I for instance agree that kids should not have access to nicotine dispensing devices and that *good *rules and regulations should be respected. Whether they are government regulations or school rules. Equally so, *bad *or irrational regulations and school rules should and can be challenged.

Regulation is inevitable, but I am not as scared as you are that government will ban vaping outright. They might try, but I doubt that they will succeed in the long run, simply because it would be completely irrational to do so. 

Two months ago I was a smoker who thought that vaping was just another form of the same evil. That was just two months ago! Now, after giving vaping a try and reading up a bit and listening to some experts, I think that vaping may just be the answer to the two the leading causes of death on a global scale! Tobacco use and obesity. That is insane! Why didn't I hear about this sooner?

Now as far as tobacco use is concerned, I think most here agree that vaping is streets better than smoking. I will leave it there as that debate is currently being had all over the world.

What surprised me about vaping was the benefit that (I think) it may have in respect of obesity. Now whether you think banting is a good or bad thing is another issue that could be argued _ad infinitum_. Fact for me is that I managed to go from a BMI of 32 to 24 in just over six months by banting. I've managed to keep it there for years. But boy did I miss the sugar! I was also afraid that giving up smoking would cause me to start overeating again as smoking is an appetite depressant.

Well, not anymore. Who would have thought that I could have a dessert and a milkshake and some candy whenever I liked, without any of the effects of actually consuming those things? I certainly didn't and I cringed at the idea of "smoking sweet stuff".

I see that your daughter is two years old. When she goes to school you will see the large number of young kids, that are completely obese. That saddens me immensly... yet there is a school tuck shop that happily sells hamburgers, koeksisters and cokes to these kids at almost every school. Kids don't get fat and binge on sweets because they are hungry. They crave the flavours, just like we do. The original flavour chasers you might say. 

So from my newbie perspective I think that the issue has been framed far too narrowly. It is not just a matter of smoking v vaping. Sure, vaping is 95% beter than smoking. But what is it also beter than if you use it without nicotine (or even maybe with nicotine)?

Is vaping beter than going to McDonalds or the school tuck shop?
Is it beter to vape than to eat a donut?
Is vaping beter for your lungs than running or cycling on a public road with all those cars and their exhaust emissions?

Should we be refering to vapes as "Electronic Flavour Dispensing Devices" in order to help cure obesity and drop the "Electronic Nicotine Dispensing Device" thing when it applies?

I won't get into the whole issue of morality and how to raise your children thing with you. Fact is,* I* would much rather let my kids have a good dose of overly sweet nicotine free vapour than let them binge on donuts, milkshakes and the like.

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