# DIY Flavour Safety



## Wesley (4/10/19)

Hello DIYers,

Please have a look at this thread on Reddit where the community has done a bit of their own research into possible hazardous ingredients in flavour concentrates. Most concerning is that Flavor West uses fructose in many of theirs.



Very interesting discussion happening in the comments with some input from Flavorah themselves.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Thanks 2 | Informative 4


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## Wesley (27/10/19)

Just giving this a bump for anyone who missed it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Chickenstrip (27/10/19)

This is interesting. I've bought flavours from Blck that clearly had oil in them. Threw them out immediately. Honestly can't remember the brand but I recall it being a relatively well known brand. Cola and I think strawberry were two I found with oils in them. Possibly that Vit E.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Puff the Magic Dragon (28/10/19)

Chickenstrip said:


> I've bought flavours from Blck that clearly had oil in them.



Have any of the DIY experts bought flavours with oils in them ?

@RichJB @Dietz @Andre @Rude Rudi @StompieZA

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mofat786 (28/10/19)

Bought a tfa or fw tobacco conetrate from blck vapor tht tasted like jik meh

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## Andre (28/10/19)

Chickenstrip said:


> This is interesting. I've bought flavours from Blck that clearly had oil in them. Threw them out immediately. Honestly can't remember the brand but I recall it being a relatively well known brand. Cola and I think strawberry were two I found with oils in them. Possibly that Vit E.


Highly unlikely. @Richio

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## StompieZA (28/10/19)

Highly doubt that BLCK or possibly any other concentrate suppliers in SA would risk selling any concentrates that could possibly be harmful or contain harmful ingredients.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Asterix (28/10/19)

Interesting. At first I thought @Chickenstrip must be talking kak (sorry!), but then started thinking a bit....

Do our local concentrate vendors "vet" the flavors they sell, checking that they are not selling oil based concentrates? Or is it up to us consumers to check for ourselves and then make a decision on what to purchase or not? 

I have made an informed decision to vape RED PILL, knowing that it contains diketones, but I have never actively searched any of the flavor concentrates I've purchased to check if they are oil based.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Chickenstrip (28/10/19)

Andre said:


> Highly unlikely. @Richio



I'd be willing to place my life on it.

You guys can say whatever you like. I love Blck just as much as the rest of you. But some of the flavours have an oil that settles to the top.

I'm not saying that the oil is Vitamin E. I have no idea what it is. But some of the flavours do produce an oil like substance that separates from the mix within hours. Some do it before they've even been mixed and some as a result of being mixed with other flavours.

I'm a confused at why everyone would jump the gun on this.

"Highly doubt that BLCK or possibly any other concentrate suppliers in SA would risk selling any concentrates that could possibly be harmful or contain harmful ingredients."

The act of vaping itself would constitute as possibly harmful... Everyone used diacetyl until they couldn't. That's just a very silly thing to say when we don't know enough about vaping. There are also thousands of flavours. How could we possibly identify the ingredients in each and every one?

But honestly, what do I have to gain by making this up? :/


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## Asterix (28/10/19)

@Chickenstrip Personally I think you overreached by saying “possibly that Vit E”. That’s total conjecture and was used to sensationalize your post.


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (28/10/19)

StompieZA said:


> Highly doubt that BLCK or possibly any other concentrate suppliers in SA would risk selling any concentrates that could possibly be harmful or contain harmful ingredients.


Yes but do they know what is in it, how it was made etc? Or are they just a middleman making a profit?


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## StompieZA (28/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Yes but do they know what is in it, how it was made etc? Or are they just a middleman making a profit?



I would certainly hope they know what is in each concentrate. Maybe @Richio and @Flavour world Sa could possibly provide some insights and info.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Chickenstrip (28/10/19)

Asterix said:


> @Chickenstrip Personally I think you overreached by saying “possibly that Vit E”. That’s total conjecture and was used to sensationalize your post.



I was referencing the OP. Not the Vit E in the news right now.


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (28/10/19)

StompieZA said:


> I would certainly hope they know what is in each concentrate. Maybe @Richio and @Flavour world Sa could possibly provide some insights and info.


Thats the problem, hope means nothing. Does any of the vendors have their products tested in labs to see if what they told is in it, is actually the same as whats really in it. There is no regulations body in SA either that control any vape stuff.
And thats what I have been saying all along, how do you know whats in your juice? Not only diy, any juice you buy

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chickenstrip (28/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Thats the problem, hope means nothing. Does any of the vendors have their products tested in labs to see if what they told is in it, is actually the same as whats really in it. There is no regulations body in SA either that control any vape stuff.
> And thats what I have been saying all along, how do you know whats in your juice? Not only diy, any juice you buy



I know some vendors will demand a safety sheet from suppliers. But these safety sheets are strictly for consumption so I don't really see how they hold any validity with regards to vaping.


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## ivc_mixer (28/10/19)

I've seen some of these flavours available from some local stores.

My question is this though. They do not specify V1 or V2 on the spreadsheet, so is it the same for both?


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## takatatak (28/10/19)

The formulations of flavour concentrates are proprietary blends of various chemicals and as such, the likelihood of the exact compositions being released by every flavour manufacturer is very slim. You may be able to identify the ingredients in some flavours by looking at things like The Flavor Apprentice Spec Sheets & Components list but the exact formulations will not be made available to the public; much the same way we cannot find the exact recipe for Coca-cola, yet we can see the list of ingredients on the product label.

Labelling regulations do not require that each and every flavouring, colourant and preservative get listed unless they are known allergens. If they had to release the chemical compositions of every product on the shelves then they would all need to come with a separate insert just to list ingredients.

The majority of flavour manufacturers didn't start with the intention of creating products for use in vapour products so the idea that all ingredients should be safe for vaping is nonsensical.

Some flavour houses have flavours that specifically state that they contain MCT oil and that they're intended use is in the flavouring of edibles etc. Here is a statement from The Flavored Herb website (TFA sister site) regarding their new range of flavours:

_"These *oil soluble* flavors are great for candies, baking and all other Culinary and Cosmetic applications"_​
Some flavours like FA Custard Premium come from Flavour Art's kitchen line and do contain DAAP which is potentially hazardous to inhale yet it's GRAS to ingest.

Here's a statement from The Flavor Apprentice FAQ:

_"Inhalation of flavor chemical blends by use of electronic cigarettes is a popular and more chemically pure alternative to traditional tobacco smoking. However, please note that this use of flavors is a relatively new practice, and has not been safety-tested by any official organizations. Therefore, we are not able to endorse any flavors being safe for this use. This would also be true for any other flavor manufacturer. There are no companies that can guarantee that any flavor is safe for inhalation. There has just not been enough time to do this kind of testing."_​
The majority of established flavour houses, mixing facilities and e-liquid manufacturers all operate under strict health & safety standards. They typically use ISO-7 (or similar) certified clean rooms. Read the section _'Our ISO-7 Certification'_ on The Flavour Mill's home page. These are the types of practices put in place by any reputable vendor so as long as you're not buying concentrates from _Piet Pompie's Pannekoek Paleis_ then you should be safe from contamination of foreign bodies.

Whilst we may not necessarily have the most detailed information about the composition of these chemicals, I think it's safe to assume that the companies that have built reputable names for themselves in the flavouring industry didn't do so by selling snake oil and blending chemicals in the bathtub...

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## Richio (28/10/19)

Chickenstrip said:


> This is interesting. I've bought flavours from Blck that clearly had oil in them. Threw them out immediately. Honestly can't remember the brand but I recall it being a relatively well known brand. Cola and I think strawberry were two I found with oils in them. Possibly that Vit E.



Hi @Chickenstrip 
Please send me a pm as I'd like to get more information on these flavors.

With regard to flavor concentrates containing oil in them, this is highly unlikely as there's a clear separation between concentrates which are "vape safe" and culinary flavors which contain oil eg: Real Flavors sell concentrates which contain syrups & oil (these are strictly for culinary use) but they also supply PG/ VG based concentrates which are classified safe to use in e-liquids. These are the one's that you will find in an e-liquid rather than culinary flavors which cannot be used in an e-liquid.

On the topic of the oil layer rising to the top, this isn't actual oil as a base ingredient but can be attributed to one a few compounds used in the preparation (Blood Orange contains no oil according to the COA yet we find an oily layer rising to the top of the bottle, this is natural occurring citral which is used to manufacture the flavor).

In brief, the concentrate should 1st have a base which is "safe to vape", in this case PG or VG, thereafter the COA provides a guideline of the components used in the flavour which gives a component breakdown and the percentage used.

I hope this clears up some confusion surrounding this as it's quite a valid topic especially in winter when concentrates are more prone to separation.

Reactions: Like 9


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## Chickenstrip (28/10/19)

Richio said:


> Hi @Chickenstrip
> Please send me a pm as I'd like to get more information on these flavors.
> 
> With regard to flavor concentrates containing oil in them, this is highly unlikely as there's a clear separation between concentrates which are "vape safe" and culinary flavors which contain oil eg: Real Flavors sell concentrates which contain syrups & oil (these are strictly for culinary use) but they also supply PG/ VG based concentrates which are classified safe to use in e-liquids. These are the one's that you will find in an e-liquid rather than culinary flavors which cannot be used in an e-liquid.
> ...




Hey there @Richio,

I think this is exactly what I'm referring to. It may well not be oil at all, however, when looking at it. It definitely has an oil like appearance. Which may just be due to different liquid densities and colouring. 

I really don't have all that much extra to tell you in PM other than the flavours I experienced it with were TFA - Vbic, which happened when I blended the Vbic with one of the Cola concentrates. (I'm not sure which exactly, But it was either TFA cola, INW cola or Hangsen Blue Cola) as these are the only Cola flavours I've tried. I definitely believe the cola was the culprit although it may have been a blend of the two. 

The other flavour that I noticed separation on was a strawberry, I've tried almost all of your strawberries so I couldn't truthfully tell you which one it was. This one however was separated as it arrived before mixing.

I don't have any more information other than that I'm afraid.

But like you pointed out, it could be anything... It just gives a slightly yellow oil like appearance that tends to float to the top of the mix.

I've also seen this oil in a locally produced banana flavour that didn't originate from BLCK.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Richio (28/10/19)

Chickenstrip said:


> Hey there @Richio,
> 
> I think this is exactly what I'm referring to. It may well not be oil at all, however, when looking at it. It definitely has an oil like appearance. Which may just be due to different liquid densities and colouring.
> 
> ...



I'm with you on the cola (mostly likely TFA), cola type flavours do contain a component which tries to mimic the fizzyness of a real cola and we have seen them separate before. With strawberry, it's hard to say as we have so many different types I can't say offhand which one it could be but I'll definitely look into the COA and see what could have caused this.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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