# Cost of liquid?



## CyberJoe (12/7/18)

I am a creature of habit. I kicked cigarettes exactly 6 years ago, started off with those horrible pen vape devices, but refused to light up a smoke again so persevered. 

Since then I have only ever used MTL devices, something that seems to be not so easy to find. 

Anyway, I am not sure if my usage is high or low, but I am using about 30mm a week. I have tried 2 or 3 of the "new" juices, just does not work for me, so I have stuck with what I started out with. Liqua. I usually mix things up a bit, traditional tobacco, with about one quarter menthol, and then I mix in about a quarter Usa Mix which is mostly VG (I think). 

Now today I thought let me buy some new stuff, but man, at R300 a pop how do you afford it!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## Faiyaz Cheulkar (12/7/18)

This is the main reason I DIY.

Reactions: Agree 6


----------



## Puff the Magic Dragon (12/7/18)

Hi @CyberJoe . DIY juice making is really easy and cheap. Take a look at the link below for good info on how to get started. It was compiled by @RichJB who is one of the forums juice gurus.

https://www.ecigssa.co.za/a-diy-primer.t44442/

P.S. Congratulations on six years off the stinkies. I am nearly 4 years clean.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 2 | Thanks 1


----------



## Silver (13/7/18)

Hi @CyberJoe

I hear you on the struggle to find decent MTL juices

But there are some vendors that can offer you custom PG/VG mixes. For example, Vapour Mountain and All Day Vapes. I find 50/50 PG/VG and higher nic works better. They are quite reasonably priced.

And if you get 18mg juice and then add some plain PG/VG it makes it last a lot longer and most of the time you dont dilute the flavour too much. Another thing is to get some menthol concentrate (i use the one from Vapour Mountain). Just a few drops into a tankful of juice often transforms the juice a lot - for the better 

There are also other vendors that offer MTL versions of their liquids - for example, JOOSE-E-LIQZ. Havana Nightz is a great tobacco of theirs that I vape regularly

The DIY route will obvioucly be the cheapest but if you dont want to do that give the above a try.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 1


----------



## Slick (13/7/18)

I cant imagine vaping without DIY

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 5


----------



## RainstormZA (13/7/18)

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> This is the main reason I DIY.



Amen, Bro.



Slick said:


> I cant imagine vaping without DIY



Ditto. You get to experiment with new flavours...

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Slick (13/7/18)

Vape juice is the least of your worries when you DIY,and its so easy nowadays compare to 3 years ago with all the info out there

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## Room Fogger (13/7/18)

Give diy a try, you can start small and customize to suit your taste.
It may be a slight hit and miss when you start but you do 10 or 20 ml tasters, and mix bigger once you hit the sweet spot, and profile.
Ready for testing and enjoyment, approximately 1,1 liters of juice, big ones are ADV’s that I enjoy and vape daily, going to take a while to get through it.



Steeping and will be ready to enjoy in about 7 to 90 days:


About another 2 liters of juice, some ADV’s to ensure that I dont run out. Some that I’m playing around with plus small ones for testing to see if I like.

But @Silver is correct as well, when all else fails custom mixing by a supplier, and you can still play around with the profile. Menthol is a winner! About 600 mls of this is one shots, very easy to start with and make, but you have to like the profile. May take one or two small mixes to get percentages, but once done you are a for away in no time.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## SHiBBY (13/7/18)

I used to DIY and see that I need to get back into it at the rate we're using juice at the moment. My wife and I are both on drippers and it's killing me softly. The only catch is that I struggle to find recipes that truly rival that of proper decent retail juices. That being said, I could vape Unicorn Milk till I retire. So gooooood

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


----------



## Room Fogger (13/7/18)

SHiBBY said:


> I used to DIY and see that I need to get back into it at the rate we're using juice at the moment. My wife and I are both on drippers and it's killing me softly. The only catch is that I struggle to find recipes that truly rival that of proper decent retail juices. That being said, I could vape Unicorn Milk till I retire. So gooooood


Have a look in the DIY thread, sure you will find that or something similar, or one of the guys may have a link to a recipy on the net. People dripping or with Zeus single or dual coil RTA’s really need to look at this,  like a jet plane consumption wise, but great flavour.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


----------



## RainstormZA (13/7/18)

Room Fogger said:


> Have a look in the DIY thread, sure you will find that or something similar, or one of the guys may have a link to a recipy on the net. People dripping or with Zeus single or dual coil RTA’s really need to look at this,  like a jet plane consumption wise, but great flavour.



Haha I use about 500ml's a month... Far much better on my pocket

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## SHiBBY (13/7/18)

Room Fogger said:


> Have a look in the DIY thread, sure you will find that or something similar, or one of the guys may have a link to a recipy on the net. People dripping or with Zeus single or dual coil RTA’s really need to look at this,  like a jet plane consumption wise, but great flavour.



The catch is that I can smell and taste juices in a store before I buy, thus knowing that I like the profile before I spend the money. When making DIY juices I have to buy all the various components in 10ml minimum quantities, enough to make a fair amount of juice, only to find out that I don't like the flavour when I'm done and end up being stuck with a litre of "bronuts" or something tollie.

Here's what this industry needs: Instead of just selling fixed pre-made juices, allow people to submit a recipe to be made in a quantity they require. Here's an example of the business model:

_I happen upon a Steri-Stumpie recipe online which I want to try out, perhaps even a clone of something well known, but don't want to commit to buying all the required flavours before tasting it. I send the recipe, quantity and nic level to *<insert name of well-stocked hero here>* who has a price model like Rn per flavour/ml for custom juices, and a disclaimer that if it tastes k@k, it's YOUR k@k AND by providing the recipe you waive any implied ownership of said recipe. As a consumer I get a the juice that I want in an affordable tester quantity instead of having to buy all the flavours myself or only settle for what people have available, and as a seller said hero gets a constant stream of new and exciting recipes that they themselves can then test, assess the popularity based on demand and resell if they want as well, ergo everyone benefits.
_
Or something like that. I actually started that concept on my website a year or two ago, payments integrated and everything but I just don't have the time. Hell I don't even have the time to make my own juices right now lol

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


----------



## Adephi (13/7/18)

Alternatively you can do oneshots. We are starting to get a nice variety available. Mix nic and VG/Pg to your liking and the strength of the flavour as you like it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## Faiyaz Cheulkar (13/7/18)

SHiBBY said:


> The catch is that I can smell and taste juices in a store before I buy, thus knowing that I like the profile before I spend the money. When making DIY juices I have to buy all the various components in 10ml minimum quantities, enough to make a fair amount of juice, only to find out that I don't like the flavour when I'm done and end up being stuck with a litre of "bronuts" or something tollie.
> 
> Here's what this industry needs: Instead of just selling fixed pre-made juices, allow people to submit a recipe to be made in a quantity they require. Here's an example of the business model:
> 
> ...


 
A really nice concept will definitely work. Technically u shared ur idea on a public domain which means I don't have to pay u anything if I copy it

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Adephi (13/7/18)

SHiBBY said:


> _I happen upon a Steri-Stumpie recipe online which I want to try out, perhaps even a clone of something well known, but don't want to commit to buying all the required flavours before tasting it. I send the recipe, quantity and nic level to *<insert name of well-stocked hero here>* who has a price model like Rn per flavour/ml for custom juices, and a disclaimer that if it tastes k@k, it's YOUR k@k AND by providing the recipe you waive any implied ownership of said recipe. As a consumer I get a the juice that I want in an affordable tester quantity instead of having to buy all the flavours myself or only settle for what people have available, and as a seller said hero gets a constant stream of new and exciting recipes that they themselves can then test, assess the popularity based on demand and resell if they want as well, ergo everyone benefits.
> _



It's a great idea.

But nowadays there is so many new flavours and ranges and companies of concentrates springing up. To start with this you will need to employ somebody to keep track of what's new and what is worth to stock up on.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## CyberJoe (13/7/18)

OK, I have tried the DIY thing. It irritates the living daylights out of me to sit there with microscopes and petri dishes, I am a techie, not a mad scientist 

I have tried a lot of difference flavours, bought probably 15, found one between the entire lot I liked (Cherry Blast).

I think that is the difference, this is not a hobby to me, I just want to have a "smoke". Hell if the pod systems were any better and cheaper I would have done that! 

So my two frustrations are the cost of the juice, and MTL tanks, found a few tanks that works, and this month started playing with rebuildables, bought a Berserker Mini and also a Saviour something yesterday, again I am irrirated as hell, it arrives with no coil. OK so I bought these two fancy coils which cost about the same a small house for 2 coils, I managed to get a coil installed in the saviour tank, nice, reads 0.15ohm, so back to the Nautilus I guess. 

Now I need to first go and figure out this whole rolling business, somewhere I could really care about less, I just want to have a drag.....nothing less, nothing more.

I think I am the example of who none of the vendors think of, the oke out there who just wants to replace cigarettes and could not care about clouds of smoke, rolling a coil or mixing liquids. All the vendors are so hung up on stocking the latest and great smoke machines, 1000's of different fruity flavoured juices they forgot about us okes....now I know most people here will not agree, as the audience here are not the ones who just want to have a smoke.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Faiyaz Cheulkar (13/7/18)

Adephi said:


> It's a great idea.
> 
> But nowadays there is so many new flavours and ranges and companies of concentrates springing up. To start with this you will need to employ somebody to keep track of what's new and what is worth to stock up on.


Or one can simply list the flavours available and can have a request section where one can post a request a recipie and the popular ones can be purchased. 
Problem is the investment is huge which I can't afford. I can design the ecommerce website and all, just the actual cost of materials.
Plus the target customers at the moment is very low to expect immediate return. Also the shipping cost will be high making the total cost for a buyer high which might effect his choice.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Room Fogger (13/7/18)

CyberJoe said:


> OK, I have tried the DIY thing. It irritates the living daylights out of me to sit there with microscopes and petri dishes, I am a techie, not a mad scientist
> 
> I have tried a lot of difference flavours, bought probably 15, found one between the entire lot I liked (Cherry Blast).
> 
> ...


Please don’t have a “smoke”, I think you have passed that point allready and closed that chapter, but you are most welcome to have a vape.  Yes I am trying to be funny, it takes all of us a while to stop saying smoking, and I also think you would be surprised as to how many in the community care, if we didn’t, we would not be here. In the end we want the same thing, a pleasant experience to help us get over our previous smoking addiction.

I can relate to how you feel, to any person starting out it can seem like a daunting experience and task, and I’m sure that there are a lot of other people out there that feel exactly the same as you imho. I also do believe that as a “new” vaper people are snowed under with so many options and hype and everything that the principle of “keep it simple stupid” goes out the window in some instances.

In the end my advice would be to talk to the guys in the vape shop and tell them exactly what your expectations are regarding what you want, and listen to their advice as well. With this I mean not walking in and asking for a good MTL tank, but to ask for assistance in realizing your expectations of the MTL experience. It may be surprising as to what the difference is in what they suggest after this with regards to kit compared with before. With the different options becoming available it also gives them a bigger choice to customize your experience. Coils a problem? Ask them to suggest what to fit based on these expectations and to fit it for you, they won’t mind, and if they do, find a new vape shop.

The only part where I can’t help is with the cost of juice, big clouds use a lot, MTL the minimum. But you have to look at it compared to what you spent on ciggies. You will still have to have expenditure on that and coils, rebuildables or not.

Just keep at it, it is definately worth it in the end. Good luck in your quest, and may you find your sweet spot soon. Many happy clouds to you.
RF.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


----------



## Stosta (14/7/18)

The cost of juice is definitely a motivating factor for DIY.

However I found that my DIY attempts are hit-and-miss (even using someone else's recipe - I guess I'm not accurate enough), and I rarely have the time to mix.

Luckily there are a lot of local vendors putting out some great juices at very reasonable prices these days.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Can relate 1


----------



## RichJB (14/7/18)

CyberJoe said:


> I think I am the example of who none of the vendors think of, the oke out there who just wants to replace cigarettes and could not care about clouds of smoke, rolling a coil or mixing liquids.



Sounds more to me like you're exactly the sort of mainstream customer that the pod manufacturers and big tobacco are catering for. Something like the JUUL sounds ideal for you. No mess, no fuss, plug and play device where all the coiling and wicking and juicing is already done for you. You pay more for it, of course, just like you pay more for a restaurant chef to cook for you than the time and hassle of cooking at home. But if you want more control over what you spend and what goes into your food, then you have to learn to cook. I don't think you'll find an ideal situation where everything is done for you and it's very cheap as well.



SHiBBY said:


> by providing the recipe you waive any implied ownership of said recipe... and resell if they want as well, ergo everyone benefits.



Those are the two problems. If I provide a recipe found on ATF to a vendor to mix, the IP rights to that recipe aren't mine to waive. Nor does my inapplicable waiver give the vendor the right to market the juice commercially. It may not result in a winnable legal case (recipe theft invariably doesn't) but much of the industry and community would view it as unethical.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Puff the Magic Dragon (14/7/18)

I agree with @RichJB that you ( @CyberJoe ) would perhaps be best suited to a pod system. I would, however, suggest that you go for the Vladdin rather than the JUUL. It cost only R 320 at Vape King and the pods are refillable. Take a look at this comparison :



Good luck in your search.


----------



## SHiBBY (14/7/18)

RichJB said:


> If I provide a recipe found on ATF to a vendor to mix, the IP rights to that recipe aren't mine to waive. Nor does my inapplicable waiver give the vendor the right to market the juice commercially. It may not result in a winnable legal case (recipe theft invariably doesn't) but much of the industry and community would view it as unethical.



Totally agree, Im not saying said vendor should promote it as their own and make a living off someone elses recipe, but those published in the public domain like ATF are for all intents and purposes already waived of exclusive rights. Upon publishing it, the publisher should assume that half the world will make, perfect and resell it.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Faiyaz Cheulkar (14/7/18)

SHiBBY said:


> Totally agree, Im not saying said vendor should promote it as their own and make a living off someone elses recipe, but those published in the public domain like ATF are for all intents and purposes already waived of exclusive rights. Upon publishing it, the publisher should assume that half the world will make, perfect and resell it.


Couldn't agree more. If I want commercial gains I won't post my recipes online. I would instead make samples and send it to people for reviewing instead. Posting a recipe online and then asking people not to copy it is like dropping a r200 note on the road and expecting no one picks it up.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## RichJB (14/7/18)

Recipe theft is inevitable for recipes posted in the public domain. That is beyond question. What is in question is the degree to which we want to normalise and condone it.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------

