# DIY - Your first time



## Derick (8/12/14)

I've been seeing an increase in the number of people wanting to try out DIY and I thought I would post a quick-start guide.

Note: This is my recommendation of how to get going, you can probably find plenty of other guides online or by talking to experienced DIY-ers.

With that out of the way let's start:
It seems daunting, I know. PG/VG, nicotine, flavours, percentages, calculators that give you weird error messages and omg can I mix it wrong and kill myself?

There are 2 ways you can mix DIY - The supremely accurate, scientific method, where everything works out exactly down to the 0.01 of a ml, or the not-so-accurate, but close enough (and easy) method.

For this post, I'm just going to talk about the easy method. It does not work out your nic level to the exact mg/ml, but gets it pretty close and it errs on the side of caution (so you nic level will be a bit lower if anything).

So let's get some terminology out of the way first:
*Nic*
Nicotine and generally measured in mg per ml, or % per volume. Coincidentally the two measurement methods have pretty much a 1:1 relationship - i.e. 36mg/ml = 3.6% Vol.
*PG*
Propylene Glycol - it is a superior flavour carrier and solvent (makes your flavours mix and not separate), also adds to the throat hit.
*VG*
Vegetable Glycerin or just Gylcerin - The vapour producer, but not so great at carrying flavours, easy on the throat

*The easy (but not so accurate) method:*
1. Premix your DIY e-liquid to the correct PG/VG ratio and nic strength.
2. Add Flavour to a small sample
3. Vape

Yep, as easy as that, but I'll explain a bit more
When starting out, I recommend you do a 50/50 PG/VG mix, here you get the best of both worlds (flavour vs vapour) - later when you get better at mixing, you can do higher VG mixes for those 'sick clouds' or for whatever ratio you later find you prefer. 50/50 is also the easiest to mix.

When starting out, use the PG and VG that have no nicotine in it, it is by far cheaper than the PG and VG that contain nic, so if it is a total unvapable disaster, at least you are wasting the cheap stuff.

1. So add 5ml of pure, no nic PG to 5ml of pure no nic VG and you now have a 10ml 50/50 PG/VG mix with no nicotine.

2. Add 0.8ml of the flavour you want to try - 0.8ml of 10ml works out to 8% strength and 8% is a good place to start with most flavours.

3. Vape - here I recommend using a dripper, purely because it is easier to try a small sample with a dripper, with a tank you would either have to vape the tank empty, or wash it out between tastings, but there is nothing wrong with using a tank, just a bit more 'work'

Now you can mess with the flavour percentage, add a bit more if you like it stronger, add more PG/VG if you like it weaker. Add specific amounts, so you can have some idea of what he final percentage is that you like.

Beginners tend to add too much flavouring to start off with, the upside to a lot of flavour is that it tastes really great in the short term, but you will get sick of the flavour a lot quicker. With TFA and Capella flavours I recommend that you go no higher than about 12% strength.

And that's it for this post - next post will be in a day or two, depending on my schedule, but I'll continue with the easy method and talk about making mixes with nicotine.

Feel free to ask questions on this post, will answer as I see them

EDIT: I will use this as a kind of 'series' and take you through to the advanced stuff, so you should be able to become a master mixer if you follow these posts. I will also include some info on steeping and address some of the myths, do's and don't's etc.

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## Raslin (8/12/14)

This is a brilliant idea, I for one would appreciate the knowledge passed on immensely.

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## Arthster (8/12/14)

Thanks @Derick. One thing tough when you say TFA and Capella flavours. what is the difference and how do you tell them apart?

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## Derick (9/12/14)

Arthster said:


> Thanks @Derick. One thing tough when you say TFA and Capella flavours. what is the difference and how do you tell them apart?


The difference is purely the company that sells them 

They are both American companies and the top two companies around the world when it comes to flavour for DIY. Although they do not provide flavours for just e-liquid, they do provide some of their flavours with e-liquid in mind as they are constantly improving based on feedback from the e-cig community.

When you read the international forums there are people that prefer the one over the other, but their flavour profiles are in fact very similar for the most part, but the one company will produce a flavour the other doesn't and vice versa.

In the end there are only about 4 companies worldwide that actually make the flavours and companies like TFA and Capella are in fact just resellers. So it is quite possible that some of their flavours are in fact exactly the same thing

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## Marzuq (9/12/14)

Derick said:


> I've been seeing an increase in the number of people wanting to try out DIY and I thought I would post a quick-start guide.
> 
> Note: This is my recommendation of how to get going, you can probably find plenty of other guides online or by talking to experienced DIY-ers.
> 
> ...



brilliant thread @Derick this is a dummies guide even i can understand.

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## Derick (9/12/14)

Marzuq said:


> brilliant thread @Derick this is a dummies guide even i can understand.


hehe, it is really not that complicated - as with anything new, it can seem overwhelming, but if you take baby steps and make sure you understand each step, then it becomes pretty simple.

The most difficult part is making an awesome tasting flavour, and figuring out what flavours to combine to make it awesome

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Marzuq (9/12/14)

Derick said:


> hehe, it is really not that complicated - as with anything new, it can seem overwhelming, but if you take baby steps and make sure you understand each step, then it becomes pretty simple.
> 
> The most difficult part is making an awesome tasting flavour, and figuring out what flavours to combine to make it awesome



I have to agree with you. thats the reason i have not dabbled with making juices as yet. I have no idea what flavours id like to make and in most cases you end up trying to replicate a flavour which usually ends up a bust

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Derick (9/12/14)

Marzuq said:


> I have to agree with you. thats the reason i have not dabbled with making juices as yet. I have no idea what flavours id like to make and in most cases you end up trying to replicate a flavour which usually ends up a bust


Yeah copying a flavour is a near impossible task - sometimes two separate flavour concentrates can make a combined flavour that is nothing like the two ingredients. Only once you have lots of experience in the flavour side will you be able to attempt something like that.

To make the standard single flavour juices is pretty easy though

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## Raslin (9/12/14)

Agreed, but with single flavours like fruit in particular I find tge flavours to be very weak. How do you get these flavours to pop? I have been told to add creams and custards but what if I want just the fruit flavour and not a dessert type flavour?


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## Derick (9/12/14)

Raslin said:


> Agreed, but with single flavours like fruit in particular I find tge flavours to be very weak. How do you get these flavours to pop? I have been told to add creams and custards but what if I want just the fruit flavour and not a dessert type flavour?


This very much comes down to the flavour concentrate - although the flavour companies will sell a 'cherry' flavour for example, they don't really specify which cherry flavour it is - is it fruit type cherry, glazed cherry, cherry you get in those lolipop flavours, or even cough syrup cherry?

There are around 10 to 15 different cherry flavours and obviosuly the flavour companies are not going to stock each and every one, they are only going to stock the 1 or 2 that are the best sellers.

So the best bet is to test and try and experiment


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## hands (9/12/14)

sour additive and some sweetener and even a small amount of menthol goes nicely with fruits.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ziti (9/12/14)

Great thread @Derick. Thanks for sharing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Derick (9/12/14)

hands said:


> sour additive and some sweetener and even a small amount of menthol goes nicely with fruits.


Definitely, but I'll also talk a bit about the various additives out there and what they can do and not do

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## yuganp (9/12/14)

Be careful of some concentrates as they should by used at low percentages. Things like tfa menthol, koolada, EM and tobacco concentrates should be used below 3% and then adjusted for taste. Read this blog post of levels of flavouring - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-aka-general-diy-guide-flavoring-ratios.html
Also this link for percentages for TFA - http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/1ivjog/mega_tfa_tpa_recipe_thread/

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## Derick (9/12/14)

yuganp said:


> Be careful of some concentrates as they should by used at low percentages. Things like tfa menthol, koolada, EM and tobacco concentrates should be used below 3% and then adjusted for taste. Read this blog post of levels of flavouring - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-aka-general-diy-guide-flavoring-ratios.html
> Also this link for percentages for TFA - http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/1ivjog/mega_tfa_tpa_recipe_thread/


Yep, will discuss percentages, koolada, menthol, EM, Sucralose, Stevia etc. I consider to be additives rather than flavours on their own, and as for tobacco - well that could be a whole series of posts on their own - wouldn't recommend someone get into tobacco flavours right off the bat


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## eviltoy (9/12/14)

This thread title gives me the giggles

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## yuganp (9/12/14)

I think my problem is that for my tastes Menthol is the main ingredient and everything else is an additives. Today is black cherry and menthol. Tomorrow could be menthol and koolada. The next day could be mild and black with menthol.

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## Silver (9/12/14)

Absolutely love your thread @Derrick. Will be following the whole series closely. This topic intrigues me a lot even though I have not commenced DIY yet. I do like dabbling in additives though - to pump up my performance - lol

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## Derick (9/12/14)

Silver said:


> Absolutely love your thread @Derrick. Will be following the whole series closely. This topic intrigues me a lot even though I have not commenced DIY yet. I do like dabbling in additives though - to pump up my performance - lol


Ha, yep, many DIY-ers start with just adding a few drops of menthol to their favourite mixes

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## Wesley (9/12/14)

Silver said:


> Absolutely love your thread @Derrick. Will be following the whole series closely. This topic intrigues me a lot even though I have not commenced DIY yet. I do like dabbling in additives though - to pump up my performance - lol



I can relate - I started off with Liqua juices and most of them were crap, but I could mix them together to create something vapable and this is where the DIY bug took hold of me.

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## Derick (9/12/14)

Ok on to *PART 2
*
in Part 1 you mixed some 50/50 PG/VG and added a flavour, you played a bit with the flavour and you think you have it where you like it, or it was absolute crap and you binned it. The secret to success is just playing. If you are *not* someone that likes fiddling, experimenting and trying out wild ideas then you are probably not going to enjoy DIY.

Before I get to the part about adding nicotine, perhaps now is a good time to say a few things about flavour and also nicotine and safety. 

Flavour like or dislike is a very, very subjective thing. It is not only a personal thing, but it is influenced by your culture, your upbringing, any memories associated with a particular flavour, what you drank or ate before vaping, your hydration level, your hunger level and a myriad of other factors all playing a role in how you perceive a flavour and whether you will like it or not. So when trying out a new flavour, vape it for at least a few hours before making up your mind. Take note of what you eat or drink and think about how that can affect your taste buds before calling a flavour good/bad.

Generally when tasting new flavours, or mixing a new flavour for your DIY creation, make sure you are well hydrated, not hungry, not thirsty and wait at least an hour after eating, to make sure your taste buds are not influenced by the garlic pizza you had 5 minutes ago.

Also keep an open mind, with certain flavours you might not like the real product, but vaping a flavour vs eating or drinking the real deal are two different things entirely. You might intensely dislike peanut butter, but never realized that it is the texture that puts you off - then when you vape peanut butter flavour you might be in vaping nirvana - you will never know until you try.

Ok, Now some things about nicotine.

*SAFETY*
Generally most mixing kits in SA comes with 36mg (3.6% Vol) nicotine. This level of nicotine is reasonably safe to work with, if you spill some on your skin, it can be absorbed into the blood stream over time and it will make you feel queasy, light headed and give you heart palpitations. Unless you bathe in the stuff for hours, the chances of 36mg killing you are very slim. Having said that, I'm just a dude on the internet, not a doctor, so if you feel unwell, seek medical advice.

If you spill 36mg nicotine on your skin, wash it off soon as you can and you will be fine. Or better yet, put some disposable gloves on and then you don't have to worry.

If you get a little bit in your mouth, you might experience the same symptoms as spilling on your skin, so just rinse out your mouth and continue.

If you go and drink 100ml, you're gonna be sick, very sick. Puking, diarrhea, tremors, sweats are some of the symptoms, best bet is to visit the emergency room. Once again, it probably won't kill you, unless you have some pre-existing condition that makes you sensitive to the effects of nicotine. And once again, I'm not a doctor, but what I can say is that to date, not a single person has been killed by ingesting e-liquid.

The only death with e-liquid recorded is someone that injected it directly into his bloodstream, and his intention was actually to kill himself.

PETS: Besides nicotine, Propylene Glycol is harmful to cats. If they ingest enough of the stuff, it causes problems with their kidneys and they can die. Dogs not a problem, as some dog food even contain PG (which is one reason you never feed dog food to a cat so by the way).

KIDS: Kids will smell the nice flavours and think they can drink it. One taste is usually enough to keep them from drinking more, but you don't want to mess around here. Treat it as you would treat bleach. Keep it out of reach and keep it tightly closed and remember - there is no such thing as a childproof cap. Our son has been able to open childproof caps and kiddie locks on doors since he was 3.
If your precious one does drink some e-liquid, he will probably be fine, but sick. Take no chances here and take them to the emergency room to be checked out thoroughly.

Ok, Safety out of the way, but I have to put a disclaimer here, I'm am NOT a medical professional. In the end it is up to you to be safe and get yourself/your loved ones to the doctor if you think you need to go. I don't want your last words to be 'But Derick said I would be fine' 

Finally with the boring stuff out of the way, we can get to the nicotine mixing.

*1. Mixing the right mg Nic* 
Some People get a bit confused with how the mg will be affected when mixing the base liquids so I will try and simplify:
Lets say you pour your favourite rum and coke, single. it is 25ml of rum in a 250ml glass with coke, so 10% of your drink contains rum. You put your drink down, have a vape and forget that you poured yourself a drink. So you pour another, same 25ml of rum in 250ml coke, 10% rum.

As you walk out the kitchen, drink in hand, you see the other rum & coke you poured earlier. Damn. Oh well, you get a beer mug out of the cupboard and ignoring your wife's scowl, you pour both the drinks into the 500ml beer mug.

So, what do you have in the beer mug? 50ml rum, in a 500ml container with coke, so still 10%. So this is still a single rum & coke. 

10% of rum in your coke, added to another 10% mix of rum and coke does NOT make a 20% rum and coke - if that was true, by the time I have added 10 of these together I would have 100% rum and no coke - which of course is not possible (however much we want it to be)

Mixing nicotine works the same way. if you take 36mg PG and add 36mg VG, you end up with a 36mg PG/VG mix. (Still 3.6% same as the rum)

I previously recommended we work with a 50/50 mix in the pure PG and VG and I'm going to recommend the same here, to keep things simple.

Easiest way: take all of your PG 36mg and add it to all of your VG 36mg - you now have a 50/50 PG/VG 36mg mix that you can use for the rest of your DIY mad scientist creations.

When mixing PG and VG you will notice that it forms these swirls and strands in your mix - PG and VG have different densities and that is what causes the weird effect. You want to stir this mixture until it turns clear again to make sure it is mixed properly. 

*2. Diluting (getting your mg down to a vapable level)*
Like in Part 1 where you mixed a pure 50/50 PG/VG mix, mix yourself another batch of pure PG/VG 50/50. Easiest way is to just mix all your pure PG and VG together so you have a large batch of 50/50 pure PG/VG.

Right, now from all the various bottles of PG/VG nic and no nic you had, you have now simplified your whole mixing kit down to 2 mixes:
1 x 50/50 PG/VG mix with no nicotine and
1 x 50/50 PG/VG mix with 36mg nicotine.

This is now a lot simpler to work with. label your mixes however, so you don't get confused.

To get your 36mg down to the level you want, some maths is unfortunately involved, it is primary school maths however, so you should be fine:

1. Take your 36mg and divide by the target mg - the mg/ml that you want to achieve
So we want to make 12mg for example: 36/12 = 3

2. This number indicates how many equal parts there are going to be in your mix. One Part is always going to be nicotine and the rest will be the pure (no nicotine) mix. So in our example, it is going to be one part 36mg, diluted with two parts pure mix.

Or to put it into numbers: If you want to make 30ml: It is going to be 10ml 36mg, added to 20ml pure mix = 30ml 12mg

Another example: You want to make 6mg:
36/6 = 6, so 6 parts total - that is 1 part nicotine, 5 parts pure
or for 30ml, it will be 5ml 36mg and 25ml pure = 30ml 6mg

I think I'll stop here, been a long post and I will leave it open to questions at this point.

Next part we can add the flavour to your mix and I will discuss how it will affect your nic strength

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## Derick (9/12/14)

At the end of this easy-mix series, I will put it all in a PDF and post it here

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## Raslin (9/12/14)

Brilliant, I like the part about the pizza. Seriously, do you recommend using both pg and vg nic in our mixes? I have been using vg based nic and pg flavour. Would this make a difference?

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## Derick (9/12/14)

Raslin said:


> Brilliant, I like the part about the pizza. Seriously, do you recommend using both pg and vg nic in our mixes? I have been using vg based nic and pg flavour. Would this make a difference?


If you use only VG and then your flavour is PG based, you are ending up with something like a 10/90 PG/VG mix (depending on how much of the PG flavor you are using of course). Nothing wrong with that, you will get more vapour than a 50/50 PG/VG mix, but your flavours will be more muted as VG is not as good at carrying flavours as PG is.
People usually counteract this by adding more flavouring, so that the taste is stronger. These flavourings have their limits though - too much and your e-liquid starts getting a 'chemical' or perfume-like taste to them.

In the end, it will depend on what is more important to you. Flavour vs vapour

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## Raslin (9/12/14)

What I meant was I use a total mix of 50/50. For example I mix 4ml pg based flavour,11ml pure pg, 6ml vg nic and 9ml pure vg to get a 30ml juice. So I only use vg based nic.

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## Derick (9/12/14)

Raslin said:


> What I meant was I use a total mix of 50/50. For example I mix 4ml pg based flavour,11ml pure pg, 6ml vg nic and 9ml pure vg to get a 30ml juice. So I only use vg based nic.


Ah ok - nope, works out to exactly the same in the end - you still end up with a 50/50 mix with your intended nicotine strength, so no difference

In my post I do 50/50 nic and 50/50 pure to keep the calculations a bit simpler - will later on get to these mixes.


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## Yiannaki (9/12/14)

@Derick - firstly, thank you so much for your posts 

No only are you giving the info but you are also putting it across in a well written, easy to follow and humorous manner.

I have a question for you regarding PG vs VG for flavour.

You were saying that PG is the main flavour carrier and that heavy VG liquids overdo flavouring to make up for this which result in that perfumed taste you mentioned.

How would one explain the way in which Bombies (as an example) manage to get such great flavour on a juice which is advertised as 'max vg'. I understand that the PG is still there so does it just come down to the flavouring that gets added?

PS sorry for the dumb question. My knowledge on diy is zero and this question entered my mind upon reading this thread.

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## Derick (9/12/14)

Yiannaki said:


> @Derick - firstly, thank you so much for your posts
> 
> No only are you giving the info but you are also putting it across in a well written, easy to follow and humorous manner.
> 
> ...


Not a dumb question at all - certain flavours you can really crank up without getting the perfumed taste, and other flavours are just strong tasting without having to use a lot, so you can get great tasting juices with high VG ratios.

Vendors that specialize in high VG juices have gone through the trial and error to find these flavours that work best with high VG juices.

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## Yiannaki (9/12/14)

Derick said:


> Not a dumb question at all - certain flavours you can really crank up without getting the perfumed taste, and other flavours are just strong tasting without having to use a lot, so you can get great tasting juices with high VG ratios.
> 
> Vendors that specialize in high VG juices have gone through the trial and error to find these flavours that work best with high VG juices.


Thanks for the response @Derick

I will be watching this thread closely  it has peaked my interest with diy!

Reactions: Can relate 1 | Creative 1


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## Derick (9/12/14)

Yiannaki said:


> Thanks for the response @Derick
> 
> I will be watching this thread closely  it has peaked my interest with diy!


Good stuff! 

Also when I say that PG is better than VG at carrying flavours I don't mean that VG is totally terrible at it. It still does a good job, PG is just better, but PG has it's own downsides (increased throat hit, which some people don't like, less vapour and some people are sensitive to PG)

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## Silver (10/12/14)

@Derick , this thread of yours is a WINNER!
Absolutely awesome!
Thank you

The Part 2 post was so well written. I loved it. Loved the health stuff. 

By the way, I didnt know that cats couldnt tolerate PG - lol so thats why cat and dog food are separate. I always thought that was just a money making ploy from the pet food makers. I dont have cats or dogs so didnt know. Lol

Congrats and I am watching closely with much interest.

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## Derick (10/12/14)

Silver said:


> @Derick , this thread of yours is a WINNER!
> Absolutely awesome!
> Thank you
> 
> ...


Here's a bit more info on PG and cats for those that want the science side of things

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## kimbo (10/12/14)

Very nice thread @Derick thank you for this

Cant wait till you get to flavorings i will keep my questions till then

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Danny (10/12/14)

Im just waiting for flavour, additives (will we discuss the unmentionable ones?) Lots of fun!

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Derick (10/12/14)

kimbo said:


> Very nice thread @Derick thank you for this
> 
> Cant wait till you get to flavorings i will keep my questions till then


Flavouring is the most fun and the most frustrating, but I'll do a nice writeup of all that I know

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## Arthster (10/12/14)

I am really enjoying this series. Good thing I got your DIY Kit at the Meet. I can now mix by number as you explain the concepts. 

Any one else remember Bill Nye the science guy?

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## yuganp (10/12/14)

@Derick Nice series of posts. Maybe this should be stickied or added to the blogs when finished so that all the info is in one place

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## Derick (10/12/14)

...and Part 3

Quick recap:
In Part 1 we mixed some pure PG and VG to a 50/50 mix and added some flavour to test.
In Part 2 we learnt how to mix your nicotine down from 36mg to the strength you need

Using the method in part two you can now mix yourself 10ml of e-liquid in with the strength that you require. 

Now you can add your flavouring.

For this example I'm gonna say that we made 10ml of 12mg and we are adding 1ml of flavour - so it is a nice 10% mix to keep the numbers simple.

But wait, didn't we now dilute our 12mg by adding 1ml of flavour? (flavour that does not contain nicotine) Yep, sure did, but this is the easy (not so accurate) method and this is where the not-so-accurate part comes in:

If you do the math (and I'm not) you will see that you now brought your 12mg nic content down just a tad - in fact, you now have an 11mg mix (or thereabouts). Is this a problem? Not really - you are honestly not going to notice 12mg vs 11mg when you vape. If however you do notice, then I recommend you mix your nicotine base a mg or so higher than what you want to end up with, and after adding your flavour, you will be closer to the mix you intended.

Unfortunately this is not the only part that is not-so-accurate. Most flavourings are PG based. Meaning, that when you added your 1ml of flavouring to your perfect 50/50 PG/VG mix that you slaved over in Parts 1 & 2, you increased your PG content. So you are no longer sitting at 50/50. 

You now have 5ml of VG and close to 6ml of PG in your mix, so higher PG than VG for sure (yeah, still not doing the math)

Ok fine, to satisfy your OCD - math works out to a ratio of 45.5%:54.5% PG/VG (kinda, because your flavour does of course not contain _just _PG, the actual flavour components are in there too, and there we don't know how much, as that would be the manufacturers secret recipe)

Will you notice the slight shift to PG? - I seriously doubt it, but if it does bug you, then by all means, mix your base flavour about 5% heavy on the VG side and it will get closer to a 50/50 mix once you add your PG based flavouring.

So, using the easy method you can see that you get a ready to vape e-liquid that is _almost_ the mg nicotine you require and _almost _the PG/VG ratio you intended to have.

If you mix a big batch of pure PG/VG and a big batch of 36mg PG/VG, you can combine these two in the right ratio's to make yourself a nice large batch of your own preferred level of unflavoured e-liquid (6, 12, 18 or whatever you prefer). 

Now all you have to do when you want to try out a new flavour, is to pour out a small sample of your e-liquid mix, add some flavour and it is ready to vape.

So BIG recap of everything - There is a lot of fluff in these posts to explain concepts, safety etc, so it might seem like a lot, but when we distill it down to the essentials you can see that it is actually quite easy

1. Add all your pure PG to all your pure VG = 50/50 PG/VG mix with no nic.
2. Add all your 36mg PG to all your 36mg VG = 50/50 PG/VG mix with 36mg nic.
3. Work out how many parts of the pure 50/50 you have to add to your nic to get it to the target (desired) level and mix.
4. Add Flavour to a small batch and vape.

We know it is not 100% accurate as far as nic level or PG/VG ratio is concerned, but it is pretty damn close, close enough that it should not be noticeable.

And that is pretty much the easy method done.

But what about steeping?

*STEEPING*
Steeping is actually a bit of a misnomer. If you look up the word steeping, you will see that it refers to soaking a solid in liquid to either extract flavours from the solid, or to soften the solid. Clearly this does not explain what we do to e-liquids, steeping is what you do to tea.

The term originated on forums such as this and has stuck around despite various attempts by various groups to have a renamed to 'curing' or a few other, just as unsuccessful terms.

These days people realize it is wrong, but everyone knows by now what you mean when you say 'steeping' in the context of e-liquids.

So what does steeping do?
The simplest explanation is that it can make your flavours better. Notice I said 'can'. Sometimes steeping does squat. Sometimes it just wastes your time, but a lot of times it can make a good flavour great, or a not-so-good flavour pretty good. It will very, very rarely make a crappy flavour great however. 

Why does it do this?
Nobody knows - not for sure anyway. No actual scientific studies have been done when it comes to e-liquid steeping, but there is a good theory or two that sounds plausible ( I can't say/read/hear the word plausible without thinking of Mythbusters  )

1. Evaporation 
Some of the flavourings are quite volatile (they evaporate easily - they have to, as the better they evaporate, the more flavour molecules will be released for you to smell and taste.) So by letting your e-liquid stand a few days, the more volatile flavour components will evaporate faster than the not so volatile ones and your flavour will become more rounded - i.e. the components that were sharper to the taste will soften a bit, bringing the background flavours out more.
This explains why a couple of the wacky steeping methods works so well
1. Heat - heating your e-liquid will speed up the evaporation process
2. Shaking - there are people that put their e-liquid in one of those vibrating paint mixers and they have reported good results - shaking will increase evaporation as you are exposing more if the e-liquid to air.
3. Ultrasonic cleaners - they basically vibrate the e-liquid at high frequencies, just another variation of shaking, but more of the e-liquid is introduced to air and agitated.
4. Opening the bottle and squeezing it - if you leave the bottle closed, eventually the evaporating molecules will saturate the available air in the bottle - i.e. it will get to a point where there is too much of the flavour molecules in the available air, and no more flavour will evaporate. By opening the bottle and squeezing it, you are squeezing out the evaporated flavour and introducing fresh air into the bottle, so your e-liquid will steep (evaporate) some more.
5. Rubbing your elbow on a potato while howling at the full moon - does nothing, sorry guys, except waste some potato and possibly giving you warts on your elbow.

2. Mixing (as in steeping is actually just mixing the flavours well)
All the above under evaporation can actually also be explained by the theory that all these things that we do, is actually just causing the flavour (or flavours) to mix evenly within the PG/VG mix and nicotine - in which case squeezing the bottle will not help, other than to make your flavour a bit weaker.

So which method to use?
Firstly let me just say that if a method works for you, then use it. Even if it means you have to keep the neighbours awake with your howling and clean up raw potato mush in the mornings.

There are some side-effects to some of the methods though:
1. Heat breaks down nicotine - not into anything dangerous, but it will drop your nicotine concentration - some tests done by one member on Reddit found that the nicotine level dropped as much as 20% after 3 hours at 45C
2. Oxygen breaks down nicotine - so the more you shake it, blast it with ultrasonic waves, or squeeze fresh air into the bottle, the more nicotine is exposed to Oxygen and the lower your nic level will be.
3. Light breaks down nicotine - so if you steep it in the sun, you will end up with lower nic levels again.

So taking all the above into account, we can see that your best steeping method is probably to just put it in a cool dry place for a few days and leave it alone. 

Ok, stopping here for the night again, but at this point you should be ready to start mixing some simple flavours.

Next part I will talk a bit about flavouring, Unfortunately there is no "Easy method to create the best tasting flavour in the world. Ever" If there was, I'd keep it to myself and sell the flavour 

BUT - I can give you a few pointers and explain some of the terminology - in the end though, making a good tasting liquid takes a lot of experimentation, testing, some luck and even a bit of artistic inspiration. 

As before, feel free to ask question about this part or the previous ones, will answer as I see them

Derick

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## Derick (10/12/14)

yuganp said:


> @Derick Nice series of posts. Maybe this should be stickied or added to the blogs when finished so that all the info is in one place


I will make a plan at the end

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## Arthster (10/12/14)

Thanks again Derick this is excellent information and very well forth the time to read.

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## free3dom (10/12/14)

Thanks @Derick ...this is my favourite new show. I love reading each new installment 

I think a lot of this is quite logical and not at all that difficult, but having someone trustworthy explain it in plain language (even if just to confirm our suspicions, or what we've read elsewhere) goes a long way to boost confidence. I also think this will create quite a few DIYers, after reading your excellent and easily understandable instructions 

Looking forward to the next episode

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## Derick (11/12/14)

free3dom said:


> Thanks @Derick ...this is my favourite new show. I love reading each new installment
> 
> I think a lot of this is quite logical and not at all that difficult, but having someone trustworthy explain it in plain language (even if just to confirm our suspicions, or what we've read elsewhere) goes a long way to boost confidence. I also think this will create quite a few DIYers, after reading your excellent and easily understandable instructions
> 
> Looking forward to the next episode


Honestly, when I decided to start this guide, it was just because I saw a lot of the same questions and misconceptions being posted repeatedly and thought it would be cool to have a sticky/blog/pdf somewhere that we can point people to. Something that does not overwhelm you with math, formulas and e-liquid calculators.

But yes, it definitely has had the side-effect of getting more people interested in DIY - we have definitely seen a spike in enquiries about DIY kits, so that's nice 

I hope though that I have shown that it is easy and when mixing for yourself, you really don't _need_ an e-liquid calculator and that it is pretty safe to do so. There are risks yes, but in my opinion no more than cleaning your own house (bleach + ammonia for example).

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## Danny (11/12/14)

Ooooooo the inherently OCD chemist in me is screaming! Very nice and simply put @Derick I will try to control the OCD response. I must comment on the heat steeping method as a person that heat steeps and has personally evaluated the degradation of nicotine. I seriously doubt 45 degrees will degrade nicotine by 20%. I would expect a lower rate of degradation at 60 degrees even. Heat definitely degrades nic but it is much more stable than it is made out to be, if it wasnt every couriered bottle of juice, or ones that get shipped would have serious problems. As would all vapers trying to get a nicotine hit for that matter.

I heat steep at 45-50 degrees, this allows easy mixing and evaporation. I have evaluated the degradation using a modified titration type experiment which seems to work well. Here is a method which can be adjusted to test it: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/mikepetro/6202-effects-heat-nicotine-degradation.html

The OP got it wrong in his measurements cause he misread the burette, but that is the simplest explanation of a method to test that I have found (my own notes arent simple). He also did one set of samples and a control so even without misreading, his results could have been due to dilution errors. Here is a better explanation of the method actually: http://www.bob-r.com/ENI/Small Scale HCl.pdf
I modified this method to make it truer to methods I have found in books on the organic chemistry of tobacco (For example it is mentioned in "the chemical components of tobacco and tobacco smoke, 2 nd edition).

My tests have shown in over 52 sample sets no statistically significant differences between samples steeped at temps up to 55 degrees and controls from the same dilution batches. I ran trials at a number of time intervals and found no significant differences between exposure time groups either. So there were of course differences between samples in each batch but the data when put through statistical analysis revealed those differences to be insignificant, most likely attributed to errors in dilution etc.

Hope the info is useful and not just confounding, tried to explain simply. For the home mixer this means putting your bottle in warm water to help mix it is probably not going to hurt, in fact for high VG blends it could be essential to preserving your elbows (shaking up those blends can be agonising). The safest of all methods is of course as you say put in cool dark place and wait, but figured the info wouldnt hurt.

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## Derick (11/12/14)

Danny said:


> Ooooooo the inherently OCD chemist in me is screaming! Very nice and simply put @Derick I will try to control the OCD response. I must comment on the heat steeping method as a person that heat steeps and has personally evaluated the degradation of nicotine. I seriously doubt 45 degrees will degrade nicotine by 20%. I would expect a lower rate of degradation at 60 degrees even. Heat definitely degrades nic but it is much more stable than it is made out to be, if it wasnt every couriered bottle of juice, or ones that get shipped would have serious problems. As would all vapers trying to get a nicotine hit for that matter.
> 
> I heat steep at 45-50 degrees, this allows easy mixing and evaporation. I have evaluated the degradation using a modified titration type experiment which seems to work well. Here is a method which can be adjusted to test it: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/mikepetro/6202-effects-heat-nicotine-degradation.html
> 
> ...


Awesome info, thanks @Danny 

I know the titration method for testing nic content well, we used it extensively in the beginning when we were sourcing our nicotine and testing out our diluting methods  

Good to know about the heat degradation of nicotine, I have not done any tests there myself, just going by what I read, so I'm glad that it does not degrade the nicotine as much as the reddit user reports - I often use a heat method when making juices for myself (an old baby bottle warmer works perfectly  )

I always thought that one of those magnetic stirrers would be the perfect steeping device, if a bit pricey - and you would have to do large batches of course. There are a couple of DIY threads around in the beer brewing forums where you make them from old hard drive magnets and an old PC fan, still something I might attempt when I go on leave... maybe.

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## Danny (11/12/14)

A pleasure to be able to contribute @Derick . If you get the time to DIY a stirrer they really are fantastic, Im spoilt rotten where I work, have a digital stirrer and heat block (set the time, set the temp and set the speed. Go to the beach, do the shopping, anything at all and come back later). Probably the best after that is a dry heat bath that can be programmed to shake which is great for small samples.

A real easy way to mix up lots of small samples is to try a vortex type device. In the lab I have a real one, at home though I have started using a drill, its rough, ready and can send a sample flying across the room but it works. I made a silicone disc on the top of a sanding disc (just covered the whole sanding side in about 1cm of marine silicone, and made a slight depression towards the centre (it must be quite smooth as to not catch sample bottles when it spins underneath them). This attached to the drill set to quite low power achieves the same thing pretty much. Anchor the drill and you can mix samples by pushing them onto the spinning silicone disc. I suppose any kind of rubber disk, bowl shape could be used as an attachment as long as its smooth enough to not catch the sample bottles. Another one I have seen done also uses the computer fan idea.

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## Derick (11/12/14)

Danny said:


> A pleasure to be able to contribute @Derick . If you get the time to DIY a stirrer they really are fantastic, Im spoilt rotten where I work, have a digital stirrer and heat block (set the time, set the temp and set the speed. Go to the beach, do the shopping, anything at all and come back later). Probably the best after that is a dry heat bath that can be programmed to shake which is great for small samples.
> 
> A real easy way to mix up lots of small samples is to try a vortex type device. In the lab I have a real one, at home though I have started using a drill, its rough, ready and can send a sample flying across the room but it works. I made a silicone disc on the top of a sanding disc (just covered the whole sanding side in about 1cm of marine silicone, and made a slight depression towards the centre (it must be quite smooth as to not catch sample bottles when it spins underneath them). This attached to the drill set to quite low power achieves the same thing pretty much. Anchor the drill and you can mix samples by pushing them onto the spinning silicone disc. I suppose any kind of rubber disk, bowl shape could be used as an attachment as long as its smooth enough to not catch the sample bottles. Another one I have seen done also uses the computer fan idea.


I feel an unstructable is needed, with pics!

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## Melinda (11/12/14)

Derick said:


> I feel an unstructable is needed, with pics!



Can we have video on the bottle flying ?

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## Danny (11/12/14)

If I have a moment this weekend I will most happily put up an instructable, and convince the hubby to video the projectile juice!

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## Derick (11/12/14)

Part 4.

Well mixing is pretty much out of the way, so onto another interesting subject regarding DIY and that is...

*FLAVOURING*
Flavouring is a very difficult subject to discuss and describe. We are all so influenced by various factors that if you put 10 different people in a room and gave them a flavour to try, you would get 11 different reactions (There's always that one guy)

First a bit of background.
The flavours used in e-liquids are mostly artificial flavours - there are some companies that do natural flavours, and some DIY enthusiasts that extract their own flavours from various sources.

*So what is 'artificial' and what is 'natural'?*
Truth? Nobody really knows. The term 'natural' is not a regulated term anywhere that I know of.

Regulated?
The FDA and similar bodies in other countries can regulate a term or description. E.g: if you want to call your product organic, it has to comply to a bunch of rules and processes and you have to prove that you comply to these specifications before you can stick your 'organic' logo on the packaging.

Seeing as 'natural' is not a regulated term, anybody can basically slap a 'natural' label on their product and nobody can call them out on it if they disagree.

BUT, with most reputable companies, 'natural' has come to mean that the flavours have been extracted from their actual sources. So vanilla flavour came from actual vanilla beans and banana flavours from actual bananas.

Then companies started to get a bit smarter, they identified the single chemical in Vanilla that gives a flavour that smells and tastes most like vanilla (Vinallin) , and extract just that part. So Still natural - but then they found that a side product of the wood pulp process is also vinallin, and it is a lot cheaper to get (wood pulp manufacturers were treating it as waste!) So it's still natural... right?

Point I'm making is that sometimes natural is only 'natural' when you really stretch the definition of the word and because the term is not regulated, nobody can put limits on how far you can stretch the definition.

Also, remember that natural does not necessarily mean healthier for you - natural arsenic will kill you just as quickly as the synthetic stuff 

With artificial or synthetic flavourings, they basically found a way to manufacture the chemical usually extracted from the source - this works out much cheaper and you have a lot less spent vanilla beans to deal with.

The stuff made in the lab is usually purer - in the sense that in most cases a single compound is made, whereas with natural extracts it can contain hundreds of different ingredients besides the main compound responsible for flavour (read here for Vanillin)

Sometimes though the combination of the hundreds of ingredients is what gives something its 'proper' flavours, whereas the lab made one could come out tasting flat and 'synthetic'

*Flavour companies*
Although there are a bunch of flavour companies around the world that make these flavours (also used in perfume) there are only 3 companies worldwide that make all of the base components for the flavours

IFF (International Flavors and Fragrances)
http://www.iff.com

Givaudan
http://www.givaudan.com

Firmenich
http://www.firmenich.com

Some flavours (like vanilla) is a single component whereas others are various components combined to create a particular flavour.

As a flavour company you can buy the separate components from these companies and mix a new flavour, or you can commission a particular recipe and have them make it for you. This is what TFA, Capella, Flavour art and all of the other smaller flavour companies do. (Even the South-African ones)

So, in the end, no matter who you buy your flavourings from, or which ready to vape e-liquid you buy, you will probably end up with the chemical components made by one of the 3 companies above. The difference is the talent of the person mixing these components in the right ratios that will appeal to the widest variety of people 

Now onto the interesting part

*Mixing your own Flavours*
There is no real magic method to mix the perfect flavour. It is going to depend on your talent to determine which of these components will work well with the other components. Then it might work well for you only - anyone else tasting it might hate it. Fun right?

For the most part, mixing flavours that work in cooking, will also work when mixing flavours for vaping. These tried and tested combinations have been around for years for good reasons and duplicating them is a challenging but rewarding experience.

I can give a few hints and pointers, but ultimately the best way to learn what works, is to try and test for yourself. As you taste more flavours and more combinations, you will start to get a feel for what works and what won't and this can only be learnt through experience. So my recommendation is to start off simple.

*Hints and pointers.*

When starting out, mix with one flavour only. Mix a batch of each flavour and test them all out to get a feel for the flavour - Make notes on each flavour for later reference (taste, strength, sweetness level, anything that you find distinctive about the flavour)
Adjust your flavours to a level you like to vape them at - record that percentage (remember steeping will change the flavour in a lot of cases)
Vape at least 1-3ml of each flavour (unless of course it is horrible) to get a good feel for the flavour and its strength - a strong flavour might taste great on the first hit, but by the end of your tank it could be making you gag because it is just too strong - the goal is to create a flavour you can vape the whole day
When starting to combine flavours, start off with 2 flavours only in the percentages that the single flavours worked at - the goal is to either have the two flavours combine to make a new flavour, or to taste the two distinct flavours as you vape, so adjust your levels until you reach your goal. Only adjust one flavour at a time, otherwise you will adjust for ever.
When you have the 2 flavours process down, go to three or more flavours - once again, adjust one flavour at a time.
Use additives (see further below for each one and what they do) - they can save a crappy flavour or perfect a really good one.
Label your bottles with the percentages of your mix
Take notes! You can never write too much down.
I will probably think of more as time goes by and other DIY-ers feel free to comment with more hints and pointers and I will include it all in my final PDF of this series.

*Additives*
Sours: This is malic acid, used in baking and sweets - it is what those sour worms have on them and can give a nice acidic taste to your vape, a lot of the sourness is lost with vaping however, so you will never really get the mouth puckering sourness from sour worms, but it will add that acidic sourness you get with some fruits

EM: Ethyl Maltol, it is used as a sweetener in baking and can sweeten your vape to a certain degree - on its own it tastes like cotton candy (in fact that is all that the cotton candy flavour is). EM has the further function that it can dull some of the sharper edges on flavours and make them taste more rounded.

Menthol: Not much to say about this, pretty much everyone knows what menthol does, it stimulates the cold receptors in your mouth, making your brain think your mouth is cold. It can add a nice freshness to your vape or in strong concentrations it can clear your sinuses!

Koolada: Similar to menthol but not as strong - gives the cool sensation primarily in the back of the throat

Vanillin: Although vanilla flavour is a good vape on its own, adding vanilla to just about any mix can only make the mix better.

Sucralose: This is also used as a sweetener in vaping, and is apparently very sweet (I have not tried it myself, so going by what I've read.) Apparently if too much is used though it can lead to an unpleasant aftertaste

Stevia: Sweetener, made from the Stevia plant, Once again, have not used it, but apparently similar results to Sucralose

Diacetyl: Kidding!


And I believe this is where I will end this series. Somewhere in Late December I will take on the e-liquid calculators for those that want to mix the exact mg and PG/VG ratio for their mixes - I will also talk about other interesting and useful software available on the WWW.

Feel free to post questions - even if you are reading this guide a year from now, I will answer them as I see them

Happy mixing and feel free to post your creations and exchange recipes with others

Derick

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## Derick (11/12/14)

Oh and here is a flavour wheel that can help you describe your flavours in your notes - there are plenty out there, important thing is to always use the same one so that your notes are consistent - this one is actually for coffee, but it translates well to vaping

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## free3dom (11/12/14)

Fantastic stuff @Derick ...thanks for taking the time to write all this out, this is pure gold (with a dash of Ethyl Maltol to dull the sharp edges) 

Gentlemen (and ladies) start your....uhmm, mixers (??)

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## Arthster (11/12/14)

Again Derick, I can not thank you guys enough, this is truly a lifetime of knowledge being shared. Thank you very very much.

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## kimbo (11/12/14)

Hi @Derick 

Very nice write up 

When i started to use EM i had to pick up the percentage of my NET in my mix, it dulled the taste but on the other hand just brought everything together

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## Dr Phil (11/12/14)

kimbo said:


> Hi @Derick
> 
> Very nice write up
> 
> When i started to use EM i had to pick up the percentage of my NET in my mix, it dulled the taste but on the other hand just brought everything together


. Guys if u ever wanna try a nice Tobacco Vape u have to try kimbos DIY mix

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## Vincent (11/12/14)

Thanks for the wonderful series @Derick, very comprehensive and written in a way that us regular folks can easily understand. I would like to add some of my findings on the odd chance that someone else might consider it useful, specifically on the subject of additives:

*Sweeteners in general*

I've used both sucralose and EM in quite a few of my mixes and my feelings are rather mixed (lol):

EM, even in small amounts, seems to round flavours a little too well in that mixes containing EM usually end up with dramatically reduced flavour and it seems to get worse over time, heck I'm sure if I left them for a year I'd be vaping plain old PG/VG (or at least that's what it feels like to me).

Sucralose adds a decent sweetness (albeit an artificial one) but doesn't seem to dull the flavour like EM but as Derick rightly points out, use too much and it starts tasting rather funky, I normally go with 2 drops per 10 ml of mixed product (YMMV). As of late I don't really find myself using it that much any more, instead now I rely on the flavour combinations to bring along their own sweetness and since VG is actually quite sweet on it's own I've actually started to use more VG in my mixes.

*Citric Acid*

If you want to add a bit of tartness to your e-liquid then citric acid works a treat. I've found that it adds a certain vibrance to mixes of the fruity persuasion. You can use store bought citric acid powder provided it does not contain any additives (anti-caking agents etc.) and you HAVE to dilute it. I throw 1/4 teaspoon of citric acid powder into a bottle containing 10ml of PG (this will render a ~10% PG solution), place the bottle in some warm water and then shake like a mad man/women until it is fully dissolved. If you are making a fruit mix then add 1 drop of the 10% solution for every 10ml of mixed product.

*Acetyl Pyrazine 5%*

This is a rather interesting compound that imparts a nutty, bready flavour at low percentages (1%) and a corn chip (like Fritos) flavour at high percentages (4-5%), this is most commonly used to enhance dessert and tobacco mixes. I've recently discovered that it works miracles in chocolate mixes, it seems to give it a smoother and creamier taste (kind of like nutella) and also does magical things for cereal type mixes. Acetyl Pyrazine does carry inhalation risks but for DIY it's usually sold in a 5% solution and even then you would only use it in small amounts (1%-5%) - the general interwebs considers it "safe" to use at these incredibly low concentrations, but as always, use your own discretion.

I'm still very much a DIY noob and I'm just stating my personal experience so far, feel free to point out any and all absurdities 

@Derick, can't wait for the next instalment, keep up the good work!

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## Derick (12/12/14)

Thanks for the awesome replies, I will sit this weekend and incorporate them and post a PDF here for easy download/printing.

EM, yep, it can dull your flavours quite harshly, I really just use it when we have a very harsh flavour that is so harsh it burns the throat. Generally anything more than around 4% seems to start having negative effects, but it does seem to bring your flavours to around the same level - rounding it out, so if you have a mix with one harsh flavour spoiling the brew, then EM is the ticket.

Also before giving up on a bad mix, I'll try some EM to see if it does not perhaps save the day.

Another additive that I forgot to mention is vinegar. Yep, good old White Vinegar. Safety of inhalation aside, I have read about people adding a few drops of vinegar to their tobacco mixes especially, it apparently gives a raisiny type after taste to your mix and is reportedly the secret ingredient in Boba's Bounty 

Also trying to get my hands on some Stevia and Sucralose, will report my findings

@Vincent - I have often wondered if adding more VG would perhaps also not tame a harsh flavour, something I am looking forward to experimenting with.

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## kimbo (12/12/14)

Derick said:


> Thanks for the awesome replies, I will sit this weekend and incorporate them and post a PDF here for easy download/printing.
> 
> EM, yep, it can dull your flavours quite harshly, I really just use it when we have a very harsh flavour that is so harsh it burns the throat. Generally anything more than around 4% seems to start having negative effects, but it does seem to bring your flavours to around the same level - rounding it out, so if you have a mix with one harsh flavour spoiling the brew, then EM is the ticket.
> 
> ...



@Derick i use Apple Cider Vinegar at about 1 drop per 10ml, and it works great in my NET

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## hands (12/12/14)

i also use apple cider vinegar in my net mix. i like to use a bit more and add 3 drops per 10ml cause the acv i have is a bit weak.
fantastic post and i hope this raises more diy interest so we can share some recipes.

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## Silver (12/12/14)

Wow @Derick, thanks for part 3 and 4 
Really amazing to read and so well written
I love the humour and your style. Where have you been hiding!?

And as for that flavour wheel - my goodness, its like you have opened up a whole new world for me
Thank you sir!

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## Vincent (12/12/14)

@Derick VG can indeed reduce the harshness of some flavours provided you stick to the same percentages in your mix, i.e. don't boost flavours to compensate for VG not being as great a flavour carrier. 

Just quick note about why lemon juice and vinegar seem to have a positive effect in e-liquid mixes...

*pH levels in e-liquid*




In most cases your e-liquids will end up leaning towards the Alkaline side of the scale, this is because PG (this includes flavour concentrates) has a pH of 10 and VG is Neutral. Ideally you want to be have a pH between 6 and 8 and this is where lemon juice (fruit mixes) and vinegar (dessert/tobacco mixes) comes into play - these more acidic additives can alter the pH of the e-liquid and help bring it closer to neutral if used in the correct amounts. Balancing the pH can help with harshness to a degree and really improve the overall taste of your juice.

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## free3dom (12/12/14)

So today I took the time to do my first little DIY mix, feeling confident after having read this thread and understanding that it can be quite a simple procedure. The end result: a 50/50, 12mg, Pineapple flavour.

And OMG (not 0mg) it turned out great for a first try...even without steeping 

I can definitely say that it was every bit as satisfying vaping my own juice mix as it was the first time I vaped on my own coil 

Thanks again @Derick for taking the time to put this out there - it was just the push I needed

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## Derick (13/12/14)

free3dom said:


> So today I took the time to do my first little DIY mix, feeling confident after having read this thread and understanding that it can be quite a simple procedure. The end result: a 50/50, 12mg, Pineapple flavour.
> 
> And OMG (not 0mg) it turned out great for a first try...even without steeping
> 
> ...



Yay! Congratulations!

Just getting that first mix out of the way is a big step, it goes a long way towards giving you the confidence needed. 

Pineapple was a good flavour to start with, it is a very distinct flavour and therefore a mix that is too weak or too strong is not be easily noticed. All that steeping will do with pineapple is take away some of the 'sharp' edges on the flavour and tone it down a bit. The one downside to using pineapple is when you try and mix it with other flavours - because it is so distinct, it tends to easily overwhelm anything you might try and add to it.

And I guess another downside, is that it is a flavour that tends to linger in your wick, So unless you make a new coil, any other flavour you vape afterwards with the same wick, will have a pineapple hint to it - which I consider not really a bad thing as such  - Sometimes I even discover a new tasty combination this way.

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## free3dom (13/12/14)

Derick said:


> Yay! Congratulations!
> 
> Just getting that first mix out of the way is a big step, it goes a long way towards giving you the confidence needed.
> 
> ...



The pineapple is indeed quite strong, and if I hadn't read here to start low, I'm sure I would have added too much - as it stands I only added around 8% (as per instruction ) and it seems to be just about the sweet spot for my tastes. I'm not sure whether I would want to "spoil" the lovely pineapple with other flavours - instead I think it would be best enhanced by experimenting with some additives, especially malic acid or menthol. I also think that adding a few drops of pineapple to other flavours, instead of mixing it in substantial quantities, would be a good use in many cases.

I think I'll stick to single flavour for a while. One of the reasons I wanted to do DIY was to experiment with different PG/VG ratios to compare the difference in vape when everything else stays the same. Having made a "nice" baseline, I can now just vary the PG/VG ratio and should get a clear picture of exactly how this affects the various properties of the vape - I've read what it's supposed to do, but now I need to experience it for myself 

As to the lingering nature of the pinapple, I tend to re-wick quite frequently anyways - I am quite proficient and can almost do it while driving 

Again, thanks for teaching us "how to fish"...in addition to providing us with great "fish"

Reactions: Like 3 | Thanks 1


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## Vincent (13/12/14)

Congrats on your first mix @free3dom, you are off to a really good start by focusing and spending time on the individual aspects of mixing, as a variant of the saying goes: "Slowly, slowly catchee monkey", patience and method go a long way in creating excellent juices.

After you are comfortable with your PG/VG ratios and feel like adding another flavour to your mix, might I suggest introducing some TFA Coconut at around 2-3%, it goes very nicely with TFA Pineapple... piña colada anyone

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## free3dom (13/12/14)

Vincent said:


> Congrats on your first mix @free3dom, you are off to a really good start by focusing and spending time on the individual aspects of mixing, as a variant of the saying goes: "Slowly, slowly catchee monkey", patience and method go a long way in creating excellent juices.
> 
> After you are comfortable with your PG/VG ratios and feel like adding another flavour to your mix, might I suggest introducing some TFA Coconut at around 2-3%, it goes very nicely with TFA Pineapple... piña colada anyone



Coconut does sound like the perfect partner for Pineapple and I can definitely see myself playing around with those two and the mixing ratio when I get to flavour combinations. Thanks for the advice


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## Rob Fisher (13/12/14)

Vincent said:


> After you are comfortable with your PG/VG ratios and feel like adding another flavour to your mix, might I suggest introducing some TFA Coconut at around 2-3%, it goes very nicely with TFA Pineapple... piña colada anyone



So happy to see you come out of your Cave after lurking for so long @Vincent!

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Vincent (13/12/14)

Rob Fisher said:


> So happy to see you come out of your Cave after lurking for so long @Vincent!



Thanks @Rob Fisher, trying little by little to give back to the wonderful community that has already given me so much

Reactions: Like 2 | Can relate 1


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## Rob Fisher (13/12/14)

Vincent said:


> Thanks @Rob Fisher, trying little by little to give back to the wonderful community that has already given me so much



100% And based on your contribution you know your stuff! 

My guess is this is the first forum you have been on and you have been checking how things work... now the seal is broken there will be no stopping you!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver (14/12/14)

free3dom said:


> I think I'll stick to single flavour for a while. One of the reasons I wanted to do DIY was to experiment with different PG/VG ratios to compare the difference in vape when everything else stays the same. Having made a "nice" baseline, I can now just vary the PG/VG ratio and should get a clear picture of exactly how this affects the various properties of the vape - I've read what it's supposed to do, but now I need to experience it for myself



Hi @free3dom - am very interested to hear the results of this experiment of yours. Go for it!
Am watching.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## free3dom (15/12/14)

Dear diary...I mean dear vapers 

I mixed up two more batches today: one with max PG, and one with max VG. Both were done with the same ratio of pineapple flavour (~8%) and nic level (12mg) so that I could test how the different fluids perform in relation to one another.

These are the amounts I used for each of the 3 mixes (for each I made 12ml, so the ratios are ml/12):
The flavour is TFA Pineapple (from SkyBlue ).

1. 50/50 PG/VG, 12ml, 12mg (Not exactly 50/50, but close enough)
36mg PG: *2ml*
0mg PG: *3ml*
36mg VG: *2ml*
0mg VG: *4ml*
Flavour: *1ml*

2. ~100 PG, 12ml, 12mg
36mg PG: *4ml*
0mg PG: *7ml*
Flavour: *1ml* 

3. ~100 VG, 12ml, 12mg (because the flavour is PG based, this is not actually 100% VG, but again, close enough for my purposes)
36mg VG: *4ml*
0mg VG: *7ml*
Flavour: *1ml* 

*#1* (from a few days ago) turned out great. The pineapple flavour was spot on for my tastes - not too sweet and not too dull. It also produced a fairly mild but acceptable throat hit - this is one area I would like to improve (read: increase) in the original mix. All in all, very satisfying and I could probably vape it all day as long as I have a nice TH juice in another device to hit every so often - which is exactly what I did during my test period (Strawberry Snap 18mg, very nice TH).

*#2* was a max PG liquid and was quite interesting. From what I've read, and based on what I understand, it does flavour better but at the cost of vapor production. I have now confirmed this . At the same ratios of liquid to flavour, the Pinapple was noticably more pronounced and in fact a little strong (sweet) for my tastes. Not bad, but just a tad over the top. It did settle a bit as I vaped it, so it might have just been that I did not mix it well enough (see note at end). I was also very surprised by just how much the vapor is reduced when vaping the PG only liquid (I knew it was supposed to, but wow) - I felt very inadequate at the sight of such tiny whispy little clouds  I also did not really feel much of an improved throat hit as compared to the 50/50 mix as I had expected - curious. I'm not ready to say that higher PG does nothing for TH, but it didn't do much for me in this mix. Will have to experiment more, as increase of TH is something I am very interested in. Final verdict, it's okay, but I much prefered the 50/50 to this one.

*#3* was a max VG, and here the VG is actually quite a bit less than 100 because of the flavouring. From what I've read, VG is supposed to be the magical ingredient of clouds...and indeed, it almost started raining when I fired it up  Very noticable improvement in vapor production, and my earlier feelings of inadequacy evaporated along with the fluffy clouds  As for flavour, it was noticably muted; better than the sweetness of the PG, but not as good as in the 50/50 - some of this may be due to my mixing ability when working with the sludge that is VG  Finally, the almost complete lack of throat hit is astonishing - a massive negative for me, but could be a very big positive for those that do not like a harsh TH. I think this is what surprised me the most, you feel almost nothing going it and then...clouds for days - crazy stuff. Final verdict, nice clouds but the lack of a good throat hit spoils it for me personally; again the 50/50 wins 

So after all this, the 50/50 mix was definitely the best overall, and I'm starting to see why they are used together. A nice little experiment, and a good first step. Thanks again @Derick!

I welcome any and all clarifications, insights, and wisdoms based on my very simplistic analysis of the effects of PG/VG ratios on vape liquids. I will report back if the juices change profile overnight due to a visit from the vape fairy 

And that's it for this entry. Hopefully it will add some value to this thread 

Next I will try to fiddle around with maybe doing ~3/4 (80/20 or 70/30) ratios to see if that fixes some of the quirks of these "max" versions. I also might do a higher nic version of the 50/50 - in persuit of that bigger throat hit  I might also have a look at some additives to try and divine their effects on the juices.

NOTE: Mixing pure PG is sooo much easier than with VG; PG flows like water, whereas VG is like slime  I should have known that something with Vegetable in the name would be gross

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 2 | Informative 3


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## Derick (15/12/14)

free3dom said:


> Dear diary...I mean dear vapers
> 
> I mixed up two more batches today: one with max PG, and one with max VG. Both were done with the same ratio of pineapple flavour (~8%) and nic level (12mg) so that I could test how the different fluids perform in relation to one another.
> 
> ...


Awesome post @free3dom

I have never done the max PG max VG with the same flavour test - always wanted to and I'm so glad you did. I mean we always read about the differences and we have to some extent experienced it, but from a scientific bases, it is always good to verify known factors.

I am somewhat surprised with the PG not increasing your throat hit though , but from what I have experienced is that throat hit can be greatly influenced by the flavour used as well. (some flavours just produce I better TH and I'm not yet sure why)

What you can do when you want to make pure or high VG mixes, is to get yourself some distilled water from the pharmacy and add about 5% to your VG - this makes it a lot more runny and a lot easier to work with. You can play around a bit with the right amount to mix in, but any more than 5% and you start tasting the water vapour (yep tastes like you would think steam tastes like  )

Looking forward to your take on the 80/20 and 70/30 ratios

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## Derick (15/12/14)

Attached to this post is a PDF where I literally just copy/pasted my 4 part post. For easy download and reference.

I have not 'prettyfied' it in anyway, but I have some leave coming up, so I should be able to post a V2, at which point I will include some of the information in the excellent replies I have received.

During Next week (or perhaps the week after, seeing as next week is Christmas) , I'll do a new series on the super accurate method. This will involve using some DIY software, or if you are hardcore, you can use math (I wont be, thankyouverymuch)

I will however pick my favourite software and use that to walk you through a mix with the software - including screenshots and a few of the possible errors the software will give you (they can be confusing)

I'll also talk about other interesting software out there plus a few other things people have asked me to cover.

Reactions: Thanks 5


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## hands (15/12/14)

Thanks Derick. I am looking forward to the next chapter.


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## kimbo (15/12/14)

Derick said:


> Attached to this post is a PDF where I literally just copy/pasted my 4 part post. For easy download and reference.
> 
> I have not 'prettyfied' it in anyway, but I have some leave coming up, so I should be able to post a V2, at which point I will include some of the information in the excellent replies I have received.
> 
> ...



Thx for the .pdf @Derick. We just call you now Bill Nye (*Bill **Bill **Bill Bill Bill*)

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## Derick (15/12/14)

kimbo said:


> Thx for the .pdf @Derick. We just call you now Bill Nye (*Bill **Bill **Bill Bill Bill*)


I LOVE Bill Nye

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## Silver (15/12/14)

free3dom said:


> Dear diary...I mean dear vapers
> 
> I mixed up two more batches today: one with max PG, and one with max VG. Both were done with the same ratio of pineapple flavour (~8%) and nic level (12mg) so that I could test how the different fluids perform in relation to one another.
> 
> ...




Super post @free3dom !
Something i have always wanted to do myself but never got round to it.
Much appreciated and i loved the way you described your findings. I could imagine it clearly while reading what you wrote
Thanks a lot for doing it and sharing

I too will be very interested in your finding of 70/30 and 30/70 if you get a chance.

A few questions if i may:
1. I may have missed it, but what equipment, coil, wick and power were you using? 
2. Do you normally vape 12mg?
3. How did the throat hit of your 50/50 blend compare with other 50/50 commercial juices?

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## Vincent (15/12/14)

free3dom said:


> Dear diary...I mean dear vapers
> 
> I mixed up two more batches today: one with max PG, and one with max VG. Both were done with the same ratio of pineapple flavour (~8%) and nic level (12mg) so that I could test how the different fluids perform in relation to one another.
> 
> ...



Excellent post @free3dom, folks can learn a lot from this 

In my experimentation I've found that it's the nicotine that's responsible for most of the throat hit in a mix. Try mixing up similar batches @ 0mg and you won't even know you are vaping  I have read of some folks adding 1-2 drops per 5ml of high proof alcohol (pure grain alcohol or vodka without any flavouring) to enhance the throat hit, I can't say how well this works though as I haven't tried it myself... just not quite ready to vape alcohol yet

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## Derick (15/12/14)

Vincent said:


> Excellent post @free3dom, folks can learn a lot from this
> 
> In my experimentation I've found that it's the nicotine that's responsible for most of the throat hit in a mix. Try mixing up similar batches @ 0mg and you won't even know you are vaping  I have read of some folks adding 1-2 drops per 5ml of high proof alcohol (pure grain alcohol or vodka without any flavouring) to enhance the throat hit, I can't say how well this works though as I haven't tried it myself... just not quite ready to vape alcohol yet


Before distilled water, people used to add 5% vodka to their VG to make it more runny, in fact some e-liquid calculators still allow for vodka to be added and I believe some people still use this method.

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## free3dom (15/12/14)

Silver said:


> Super post @free3dom !
> Something i have always wanted to do myself but never got round to it.
> Much appreciated and i loved the way you described your findings. I could imagine it clearly while reading what you wrote
> Thanks a lot for doing it and sharing
> ...



I knew I missed something 

To asnwer the questions...
1. Vaped these on Taifun GT (closest device I have to a dripper ) with a 1.4 Ohm single micro coil and organic cotton. Ran it at 10-20W, but settled at around 14W for the most part.
2. I do normally vape at 12mg - started there and it has been satisfying so far. That said, I recently got me some 18mg juice - and there was a noticable increase in TH without any other side effects so I may just be moving on up 
3. The throat hit on my 50/50 was noticably weaker than with my favourite commercial 50/50s (the 12mgs), but equivalent and even better than some others i've tried. This is why I think that there must be some secret sauce that brings the throat hit - and I want to discover it 

As @Derick mentions, some flavours might just be a little weaker/stronger on throat hit so I will also try the other flavour I got with my starter kit in the same ratios and see how that affects the throat hit and other properties. 

One thing I have noticed, which has my me wondering, is that when I vape (mouth to lung) the longer I hold the vapor in my mouth before drawing it in, the more pronounced the throat hit (up to a point of course). I'm not exactly sure why this would be but it's a "poor man's fix" for liquids with very low throat hit - just a pity I have to sit around looking like a bullfrog with puffed up cheeks

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## free3dom (15/12/14)

Vincent said:


> Excellent post @free3dom, folks can learn a lot from this
> 
> In my experimentation I've found that it's the nicotine that's responsible for most of the throat hit in a mix. Try mixing up similar batches @ 0mg and you won't even know you are vaping  I have read of some folks adding 1-2 drops per 5ml of high proof alcohol (pure grain alcohol or vodka without any flavouring) to enhance the throat hit, I can't say how well this works though as I haven't tried it myself... just not quite ready to vape alcohol yet



I have a suspicion that alcohol may indeed improve throat hit as two of my favourite throat hitters (the Strawberry juices from SkyBlue) both contain traces of alcohol (according to the description). I will test 

Will definitely also try a 18mg 50/50 to see the effect that has, thanks


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## Derick (15/12/14)

free3dom said:


> I have a suspicion that alcohol may indeed improve throat hit as two of my favourite throat hitters (the Strawberry juices from SkyBlue) both contain traces of alcohol (according to the description). I will test


Traces of alcohol in those are truly just traces - they used less than 1% to mix the flavour, and then we only added around 8% flavour to the mix, so it is really a miniscule amount that has probably evaporated by the time the mixing & steeping was finished.

We had a sample honeydew melon mix from TFA that had a throat hit so insane you could not vape it - which is why I always believed that flavouring is the major factor in throat hit strength (probably second to nicotine concentration)

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## free3dom (15/12/14)

Derick said:


> Awesome post @free3dom
> 
> I have never done the max PG max VG with the same flavour test - always wanted to and I'm so glad you did. I mean we always read about the differences and we have to some extent experienced it, but from a scientific bases, it is always good to verify known factors.
> 
> ...



Thanks @Derick.. I think you are absolutely correct that flavour plays a big role somehow. I've found that many complex flavours also seem to give me a better TH. And 10/10 for the tip on diluting the VG (which I have come to loving call 'The Sludge' ) - I don't think I'd even mind the steam taste . Doesn't the distilled water also provide some increase in TH too? (Think I read that somwhere).


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## free3dom (15/12/14)

Derick said:


> Traces of alcohol in those are truly just traces - they used less than 1% to mix the flavour, and then we only added around 8% flavour to the mix, so it is really a miniscule amount that has probably evaporated by the time the mixing & steeping was finished.
> 
> We had a sample honeydew melon mix from TFA that had a throat hit so insane you could not vape it - which is why I always believed that flavouring is the major factor in throat hit strength (probably second to nicotine concentration)



Thanks for clarifying...then flavour should definitely be my main focus going forward 

Another problem (or "thing") I think is that the chemistry between various elements (such as additives with specific elements in certain flavours) may also play some role. Chemistry is a fairly complex subject and the interactions on the molecular level is certainly much more intricate than my basic testing at this point. I'll just have to keep experimenting


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## Derick (15/12/14)

free3dom said:


> Thanks @Derick.. I think you are absolutely correct that flavour plays a big role somehow. I've found that many complex flavours also seem to give me a better TH. And 10/10 for the tip on diluting the VG (which I have come to loving call 'The Sludge' ) - I don't think I'd even mind the steam taste . Doesn't the distilled water also provide some increase in TH too? (Think I read that somwhere).


Have not seen that distilled water affects throat hit - but could be wrong. I have not worked with pure VG juices much, I'm a 50/50 lover 

Yeah VG can be quite.. slow. I usually measure my VG out first, then add the rest of the ingredients to that, so I don't constantly have to re-pour the VG and wait for it to be done


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## free3dom (15/12/14)

Derick said:


> Have not seen that distilled water affects throat hit - but could be wrong. I have not worked with pure VG juices much, I'm a 50/50 lover
> 
> Yeah VG can be quite.. slow. I usually measure my VG out first, then add the rest of the ingredients to that, so I don't constantly have to re-pour the VG and wait for it to be done



I'm starting to understand why 50/50 is so common - it really is the best of both 

I also like how everything else (PG/flavour) just stays on top of the VG...it's like I'm making those fancy cocktails with the layers of liquid

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## Vincent (15/12/14)

free3dom said:


> Thanks for clarifying...then flavour should definitely be my main focus going forward
> 
> Another problem (or "thing") I think is that the chemistry between various elements (such as additives with specific elements in certain flavours) may also play some role. Chemistry is a fairly complex subject and the interactions on the molecular level is certainly much more intricate than my basic testing at this point. I'll just have to keep experimenting



I am in agreement that some flavour combinations contribute to overall throat hit, I'm just not a fan of potentially changing the resultant taste of my mix for the sake of TH, this is why I up the nic levels when I need that little extra oomph. That said, while I was previously looking into increasing TH a while back, I came across this "Flash" premix from FlavourArt, quoting the interesting bits:



> We are glad to announce our latest development for nicotine free e liquid designed to mimic the nicotine hit.
> 
> *Composition*
> PG 63%
> ...



http://flavourartexpress.biz/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=743

So this lends to the theory that flavorings can indeed add throat hit and at a relatively low percentage too, just wish I knew what flavorings they were using to achieve this effect

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## free3dom (15/12/14)

Vincent said:


> I am in agreement that some flavour combinations contribute to overall throat hit, I'm just not a fan of potentially changing the resultant taste of my mix for the sake of TH, this is why I up the nic levels when I need that little extra oomph. That said, while I was previously looking into increasing TH a while back, I came across this "Flash" premix from FlavourArt, quoting the interesting bits:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can totally see how chasing the TH can cause quite a headache when trying to keep flavouring just right. I'm lucky in that right now I'm more in experiment mode than getting it right mode (getting it wrong is a very important step - 100 ways NOT to make an e-liquid ). 

I'd gladly vape flavourless juice with a nice hit, rather than complex flavoured liquid with none. 

I've seen various liquids (and additives) similar to "Flash" that claims to improve throat hit but the comments and reviews usually violently disagree with these statements (I still need to translate the ones on the "Flash" page ). But none of them ever listed these ratios and this makes it very interesting, a great find. It seems almost certain that flavouring (or some part of certain flavours) is the big contributor to TH - I'll experiment with that soon just to verify it for myself 

But first I will do higher nicotine with the same other ratios+flavouring just to see how much that contributes 

Thanks a lot for all the feedback, I really appreciate your insights

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## Derick (15/12/14)

Vincent said:


> I am in agreement that some flavour combinations contribute to overall throat hit, I'm just not a fan of potentially changing the resultant taste of my mix for the sake of TH, this is why I up the nic levels when I need that little extra oomph.



My only issue with this is that when I do create a nice flavour with the correct throat hit, I end up getting a Silver because I can't stop vaping

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## free3dom (15/12/14)

Derick said:


> My only issue with this is that when I do create a nice flavour with the correct throat hit, I end up getting a Silver because I can't stop vaping



Good name for a juice that...the Silver 

I can see how making e-liquid can be problematic with all the "testing"

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## Vincent (15/12/14)

free3dom said:


> Good name for a juice that...the Silver
> 
> I can see how making e-liquid can be problematic with all the "testing"



Oh absolutely! 

Funny story... there is another trick I sometimes use if I want to figure out which flavours are hiding in the background of a foreign juice, if for example the predominant flavour is strawberry, I would then make a fairly strong mix of strawberry standalone (without the nic) and self induce vapors tongue, upon vaping the first juice the strawberry is muted and the other flavours come to the front making them much easier to identify. I was doing exactly this just last weekend and grabbed a nicely steeped strawberry ripe mix off my shelf, vaped the hell out of it and found myself staring at a wall trying to remember what I was doing. Yep... The Silver had struck... turns out that it was a mix I had made for a friend a long while ago containing a good 12mg nic (which is actually pretty strong for me).

n00b tip: Label your stuff properly

Reactions: Funny 2 | Informative 2


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## free3dom (15/12/14)

Vincent said:


> Oh absolutely!
> 
> Funny story... there is another trick I sometimes use if I want to figure out which flavours are hiding in the background of a foreign juice, if for example the predominant flavour is strawberry, I would then make a fairly strong mix of strawberry standalone (without the nic) and self induce vapors tongue, upon vaping the first juice the strawberry is muted and the other flavours come to the front making them much easier to identify. I was doing exactly this just last weekend and grabbed a nicely steeped strawberry ripe mix off my shelf, vaped the hell out of it and found myself staring at a wall trying to remember what I was doing. Yep... The Silver had struck... turns out that it was a mix I had made for a friend a long while ago containing a good 12mg nic (which is actually pretty strong for me).
> 
> n00b tip: Label your stuff properly



Self induced vapor's tongue...brilliant 
The pain we endure for our "art"


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## kimbo (16/12/14)

Vincent said:


> Oh absolutely!
> 
> Funny story... there is another trick I sometimes use if I want to figure out which flavours are hiding in the background of a foreign juice, if for example the predominant flavour is strawberry, I would then make a fairly strong mix of strawberry standalone (without the nic) and self induce vapors tongue, upon vaping the first juice the strawberry is muted and the other flavours come to the front making them much easier to identify. I was doing exactly this just last weekend and grabbed a nicely steeped strawberry ripe mix off my shelf, vaped the hell out of it and found myself staring at a wall trying to remember what I was doing. Yep... The Silver had struck... turns out that it was a mix I had made for a friend a long while ago containing a good 12mg nic (which is actually pretty strong for me).
> 
> n00b tip: Label your stuff properly



Taking one for the team .. now that is dedication

Reactions: Like 2


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## Silver (16/12/14)

This thread is very interesting - thanks to all the contributors.
@Derick, you started something fantastic here.
I am following it with much interest

Reactions: Agree 1 | Thanks 1


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## Derick (17/12/14)

Oh, and you have to wear this t-shirt while mixing

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 6


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## free3dom (17/12/14)

Derick said:


> Oh, and you have to wear this t-shirt while mixing



I was bitten by a radioactive e-liquid

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## Derick (21/12/14)

Just wanted to add a little something here.

I know there are a lot of lurkers on the site, people that prefer not to chat on forums for whatever reason - you guys are welcome to PM me with questions, or mail me - I promise, I won't laugh  Plus I'm a very patient person, been involved in doing a lot of training and I am willing to explain stuff over and over till a you are satisfied.

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## Raslin (21/12/14)

And it's coming together... Thanks to @Derick and @Melinda. I was really excited about my first mix Sweet Raspberry, but it turned out to be almost tasteless...

But now since I followed their advice the latest batch has come through. A nice pinkish colour, smooth mellow taste. Even though I used 13% flavour and 1% vanilla. 

And all it took was 20 days in the cupboard, most importantly I did not expose it to moonlight and stopped the coven from dancing around the bottle naked - the things I do for a good vape...

Thanks @Derick and @Melinda, have a great Xmas, you guys rock.

Reactions: Like 1


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## free3dom (21/12/14)

Raslin said:


> And it's coming together... Thanks to @Derick and @Melinda. I was really excited about my first mix Sweet Raspberry, but it turned out to be almost tasteless...
> 
> But now since I followed their advice the latest batch has come through. A nice pinkish colour, smooth mellow taste. Even though I used 13% flavour and 1% vanilla.
> 
> ...



You're missing out...the moonlight and naked dancing is the best part 

I'm curious as to why it was tasteless at first...did you just steep the original mix to improve the flavour, or did you mix up a new batch at a different ratio?

I guess I was lucky with my first flavours (TFA Pineapple + TFA Energy Drink) in that they were quite pronounced (at only 8%) without any steeping at all. I have some steeping (with moonlight and dancing ) and will test the difference in a week or two - but so far it's been quite nice (maybe a tad harsh during extended use).

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## Arthster (21/12/14)

New term I heard twice today and I have no idea what it means, what is silvering? I am pretty sure its not a evil look from @Silver

Reactions: Funny 2


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## free3dom (22/12/14)

Arthster said:


> New term I heard twice today and I have no idea what it means, what is silvering? I am pretty sure its not a evil look from @Silver



It's a nicotine overdose...there's a whole (endearing) story on here where the name comes from (hint: it involves @Silver)...I'll go thread hunting and post it here if I can find it


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## Ollie (22/12/14)

@free3dom and @Arthster 

Check itout here bro! I did the hunting for you

http://www.ecigssa.co.za/threads/doing-a-silver-what-does-this-mean.4335/

Reactions: Like 3


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## free3dom (22/12/14)

Oliver Barry said:


> @free3dom
> 
> Check itout here bro! I did the hunting for you
> 
> http://www.ecigssa.co.za/threads/doing-a-silver-what-does-this-mean.4335/



Thanks, your search-fu is breathtaking

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Ollie (22/12/14)

free3dom said:


> Thanks, your search-fu is breathtaking



Years of Googling young padowan

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## free3dom (22/12/14)

Oliver Barry said:


> Years of Googling young padowan



Yesssssss, my master

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Arthster (22/12/14)

Ah ok, that makes sense, well after this weekend you think I should change my name to...


​seeing as I have been silver more then anything else.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Ollie (22/12/14)

Arthster said:


> Ah ok, that makes sense, well after this weekend you think I should change my name to...
> 
> View attachment 18058
> ​





HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA..... Im torn bro!

Reactions: Like 1


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## free3dom (22/12/14)

Arthster said:


> Ah ok, that makes sense, well after this weekend you think I should change my name to...
> 
> View attachment 18058
> ​seeing as I have been silver more then anything else.



I don't blame you, with all that awesome new vape mail you got 

Go Go Silver @Arthster Surfer

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Arthster (22/12/14)

Seriously though, it aint fun. I would build a coil, test it, like it, vape it, Silver. Build the next coil, test it, like it, vape it, silver... you would think that after the 4th or 5th session I would learn... Nope. Today my nephew got bubble blowing toys. bubble toys and vape folk with new toys = Silver.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 3


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## free3dom (22/12/14)

Arthster said:


> Seriously though, it aint fun. I would build a coil, test it, like it, vape it, Silver. Build the next coil, test it, like it, vape it, silver... you would think that after the 4th or 5th session I would learn... Nope. Today my nephew got bubble blowing toys. bubble toys and vape folk with new toys = Silver.



Haha, what doesn't kill you makes you....silver

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## Arthster (22/12/14)

free3dom said:


> Haha, what doesn't kill you makes you....silver



And to be honest, I'm pretty sure Ill do it all over again... If I have to

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ollie (22/12/14)

Arthster said:


> And to be honest, I'm pretty sure Ill do it all over again... If I have to

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Arthster (22/12/14)

Oliver Barry said:


> View attachment 18060



I am not even going to try and argue that point... It is true, I might have a problem

Reactions: Can relate 3


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## kimbo (22/12/14)

Arthster said:


> New term I heard twice today and I have no idea what it means, what is silvering? I am pretty sure its not a evil look from @Silver


http://www.ecigssa.co.za/threads/doing-a-silver-what-does-this-mean.4335/

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Derick (22/12/14)

Arthster said:


> I am not even going to try and argue that point... It is true, I might have a problem


Heheh, perhaps you should make yourself a zero nic 'coil tester' juice - but I can definitely relate. Not with the coil building part, but I often Silver when we are testing new flavours. I'm always so excited about them that I have to test them all as soon as we get them, then I end up having a bit of a lie down

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Raslin (22/12/14)

free3dom said:


> You're missing out...the moonlight and naked dancing is the best part
> 
> I'm curious as to why it was tasteless at first...did you just steep the original mix to improve the flavour, or did you mix up a new batch at a different ratio?
> 
> I guess I was lucky with my first flavours (TFA Pineapple + TFA Energy Drink) in that they were quite pronounced (at only 8%) without any steeping at all. I have some steeping (with moonlight and dancing ) and will test the difference in a week or two - but so far it's been quite nice (maybe a tad harsh during extended use).


This flavour was very weak at 10% even with a week or steeping, so @Derick suggested adding about 1% vanilla. This makes the other flavour more pronounced. Seems to work but I wanted a really sweet raspberry so I have taken it up to 13%.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## free3dom (22/12/14)

Raslin said:


> This flavour was very weak at 10% even with a week or steeping, so @Derick suggested adding about 1% vanilla. This makes the other flavour more pronounced. Seems to work but I wanted a really sweet raspberry so I have taken it up to 13%.



Great stuff, thanks for sharing. If I ever need something really sweet this will come in quite handy


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## Arthster (28/12/14)

I have just made a new mix. Here is my mix details




I just finished it and was a little hasty to try it, I dropped some into the RDA and had a good toot on that one. I find that there is strong taste of something but not sure what . It then goes very bland.

(I forgot to tick the tick boxes next to the flavors which affected my batch. I don't know how negative this effect would be though)

I am putting it down to that there was no steeping.

For the steeping process. I filled my two 15ml bottles and dropped them into a bowl of hot water to get the juice more juicy. I did this for about 10 minutes, after which I gave them a good shake for about 5 minutes. I then closed the two bottles on tin foil where they will now stay in a fairly warm box for about a week. once this week is done I will run the batch through a RDA and let you guys know what the outcome was.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Derick (28/12/14)

Arthster said:


> I have just made a new mix. Here is my mix details
> 
> View attachment 18396
> 
> ...


Mixing sweet and bitter is a tough thing to do - not that easy to get the balance right, but when you do it is pretty awesome

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 2


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## Arthster (28/12/14)

Derick said:


> Mixing sweet and bitter is a tough thing to do - not that easy to get the balance right, but when you do it is pretty awesome



I had a feeling that there will be some fine tuning to this one. But the bug is biting hard now. I will definitely need to come visit you for some more flavors.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Derick (28/12/14)

Arthster said:


> I had a feeling that there will be some fine tuning to this one. But the bug is biting hard now. I will definitely need to come visit you for some more flavors.


Yep, will definitely need fine tuning, after it has steeped, give it a taste and then I recommend you adjust just one of the flavours at a time, if you change both you will not know which adjustment made the change . When I'm testing like that, I make use of heat to do some 'speed steeping'. Does not work as well as just time, but it works pretty decently, especially when you are trying to balance the flavours. 
For the final taste test I do a proper steep over a week or two.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2


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## Arthster (28/12/14)

Derick said:


> Yep, will definitely need fine tuning, after it has steeped, give it a taste and then I recommend you adjust just one of the flavours at a time, if you change both you will not know which adjustment made the change . When I'm testing like that, I make use of heat to do some 'speed steeping'. Does not work as well as just time, but it works pretty decently, especially when you are trying to balance the flavours.
> For the final taste test I do a proper steep over a week or two.



Awesome thanks. I will give that a go, I want to try let the one bottle rest for a week or two. the other bottle I will play with and see if I can improve the flavor, after the other has steeped I can compare the two and see where the changes made it better.


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## Cat (28/12/14)

The check boxes for the flavours are to indicate that they contain no PG/VG, so it's right like that, unchecked.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Arthster (28/12/14)

Cool bananas, thanks @Cat


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## Vincent (28/12/14)

Arthster said:


> I have just made a new mix. Here is my mix details
> 
> View attachment 18396
> 
> ...



I love the TFA Black Cherry flavour but I've found that at high percentages it starts tasting a bit medicinal and I'm pretty sure that might be the strong taste you pick up after mixing, it does back off with a good steep but this may well be a good case of 'less is more', I'd suggest starting lower (~6%) and working your way up. 

I'm not sure how useful this is but a while back I adopted the 100 drop (1 drop = 1%) test method from a user on ECF (Bill's magic vapor), basically if you wanted 50/50 PG/VG with 6% Black Cherry and 4% Dulche De Leche, you would have:

40 drops PG (50% PG minus the 10% of PG based flavouring)
50 drops VG
6 drops Black Cherry
4 drops Dulche De Leche

So as you can see that adds up to 100 drops, with my dropper I get about 33 drops per ml, so this would yield roughly 3ml's of sample liquid. I bought 100 x 10ml glass vials from moco packaging (http://www.mocopack.co.za/) a while back for ~R200.00, they look like so:




I'd typically mix up 3 or more of these with varying flavour percentages, a crude example of the drop test above would be something like:

6% Black Cherry, 6% Dulche De Leche
10% Black Cherry, 6% Dulche De Leche
15% Black Cherry, 6% Dulche De Leche
These vials, so far, seem to have a tight seal and can be safely submerged in warm water to aid in slightly accelerated steeping.

*Some random thoughts:*

This method isn't exact and doesn't work for everyone but I've find that it provides a quick way to get a good approximation of what a mix would taste like without wasting too many base resources. 
This method gets complicated if you want to add nic, since we don't get 100mg/ml nic base in these parts (that I know of), some more math is required to get the volumes correct for your prefered nic level, since this is supposed to be a quick test method I don't bother putting any nic in my samples.
This method also gets tricky if you want to add fractional parts of flavouring i.e. 0.25%, it's possible by increase the total number of drops but again this slows things down so I typically stick to whole percentages.
*More random thoughts:*

I haven't tried Black Cherry with Dulche De Leche but have had success with 6% Capella Vanilla Custard and 4% TFA Bavarian Cream as secondary flavours, maybe something else for you to experiment with.

And yeah, I suspect at this point I'm just rambling, so I'm going to stop here

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 3 | Thanks 1


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## Derick (28/12/14)

Vincent said:


> I love the TFA Black Cherry flavour but I've found that at high percentages it starts tasting a bit medicinal and I'm pretty sure that might be the strong taste you pick up after mixing, it does back off with a good steep but this may well be a good case of 'less is more', I'd suggest starting lower (~6%) and working your way up.
> 
> I'm not sure how useful this is but a while back I adopted the 100 drop (1 drop = 1%) test method from a user on ECF (Bill's magic vapor), basically if you wanted 50/50 PG/VG with 6% Black Cherry and 4% Dulche De Leche, you would have:
> 
> ...


Awesome post - I have read of the 100 drop method and yep, excellent way to get going, especially if you are doing the zero nic as you said.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## free3dom (28/12/14)

Amazing stuff @Vincent! 

I've been considering various ways of doing the testing and the 100 drops sounds perfect. I generally stick to whole percentages too, as it simplifies mixing even at larger volumes - and tweaking after the fact is simple by just add a "pinch" more  

I will definitely give this a go, it seems perfect for experimenting


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## Arthster (28/12/14)

Vincent said:


> I love the TFA Black Cherry flavour but I've found that at high percentages it starts tasting a bit medicinal and I'm pretty sure that might be the strong taste you pick up after mixing, it does back off with a good steep but this may well be a good case of 'less is more', I'd suggest starting lower (~6%) and working your way up.
> 
> I'm not sure how useful this is but a while back I adopted the 100 drop (1 drop = 1%) test method from a user on ECF (Bill's magic vapor), basically if you wanted 50/50 PG/VG with 6% Black Cherry and 4% Dulche De Leche, you would have:
> 
> ...



Cool information thanks @Vincent, I only had the two flavors and wanted to play a little bit more with mixology  

I really need to get more flavors, and I think this one was a little to advanced for my experience level. So will need to wait and see what happens. 

I really like the idea of your test vials. I will definitely be looking at getting a couple of those going


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## Silver (28/12/14)

Super post @Vincent - 
Most interesting - and thanks for the tip on the little glass vials


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## Andre (28/12/14)

Vincent said:


> I love the TFA Black Cherry flavour but I've found that at high percentages it starts tasting a bit medicinal and I'm pretty sure that might be the strong taste you pick up after mixing, it does back off with a good steep but this may well be a good case of 'less is more', I'd suggest starting lower (~6%) and working your way up.
> 
> I'm not sure how useful this is but a while back I adopted the 100 drop (1 drop = 1%) test method from a user on ECF (Bill's magic vapor), basically if you wanted 50/50 PG/VG with 6% Black Cherry and 4% Dulche De Leche, you would have:
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing this wonderful practical information.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Waheed (17/1/15)

Hi guys. I have been enjoying vaping the following mixes: 
7% passion fruit and 3% cream.
10% passion fruit.
7% strawberry and 3% cream.
7% energy drink.
I use a 70/30 VG/PG mix but want to try a 60/40

Reactions: Like 1


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## Derick (17/1/15)

Waheed said:


> Hi guys. I have been enjoying vaping the following mixes:
> 7% passion fruit and 3% cream.
> 10% passion fruit.
> 7% strawberry and 3% cream.
> ...


Sounds awesome


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## Waheed (17/1/15)

Derick said:


> Sounds awesome


Thanks @Derick. I have been DIYing for the past 6 months and my ADV is passion fruit. Have started combining flavours only recently but will keep testing and reporting back on this thread to keep the vape community informed. Need to get more flavours to mix first though


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## Derick (17/1/15)

Waheed said:


> Thanks @Derick. I have been DIYing for the past 6 months and my ADV is passion fruit. Have started combining flavours only recently but will keep testing and reporting back on this thread to keep the vape community informed. Need to get more flavours to mix first though


The passion fruit is nice, you would probably like dragonfruit then too, not really a fruit that is readily available in SA (although you can find it) - so people don't really know it, but it certainly makes a nice vape for the fruit lovers

You can also try to add a little bit of vanilla to your mixes as a third flavour - it is a good one to start off with for complex mixes because vanilla is pretty forgiving and improves the taste 99% of the time

Reactions: Like 2


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## Waheed (17/1/15)

Derick said:


> The passion fruit is nice, you would probably like dragonfruit then too, not really a fruit that is readily available in SA (although you can find it) - so people don't really know it, but it certainly makes a nice vape for the fruit lovers
> 
> You can also try to add a little bit of vanilla to your mixes as a third flavour - it is a good one to start off with for complex mixes because vanilla is pretty forgiving and improves the taste 99% of the time


Funny you should mention those two, already added them to my shopping cart. Yes I plan on adding the vanilla to see what it does. But also want to try adding it to my caramel tobacco mix ( haven't yet vaped it @ 7% as it's still steeping)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Derick (17/1/15)

Waheed said:


> Funny you should mention those two, already added them to my shopping cart. Yes I plan on adding the vanilla to see what it does. But also want to try adding it to my caramel tobacco mix ( haven't yet vaped it @ 7% as it's still steeping)


Heh, awesome - Yep vanilla works well with tobacco mixes, even if it is just a tiny amount for some background

Reactions: Like 1


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## free3dom (17/1/15)

I definitely need some more fruit flavours 
Passion fruit does sound nice...might have to give that a go.

BTW @Derick ...the TFA Pineapple is a confirmed tank cracker. I did read that on the TFA site, but as time went by I forgot, loaded in my Taifun and......crack  
It is definitely a glass tank only flavour, so anyone using it take note

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## StingRay999 (29/1/15)

My starter kit form SkyBlue is arriving today. I cant wait to start with the chemistry. Thanks for this great thread @Derick It really got me exited and confident to start.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Waheed (29/1/15)

And always keep notes of your recipes if you inventing new combinations. It's so easy to vape on something after a week and think "this is awsome " only to then have the thought "my god I can't remember the percentages"

Reactions: Agree 2 | Thanks 1


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## Derick (29/1/15)

StingRay999 said:


> My starter kit form SkyBlue is arriving today. I cant wait to start with the chemistry. Thanks for this great thread @Derick It really got me exited and confident to start.


My pleasure, hope you enjoy it and feel free to post questions/comments, I'm by no means all-knowing when it comes to DIY, so if I can't answer, I'm sure there will be forumites that can

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## Derick (29/1/15)

free3dom said:


> I definitely need some more fruit flavours
> Passion fruit does sound nice...might have to give that a go.
> 
> BTW @Derick ...the TFA Pineapple is a confirmed tank cracker. I did read that on the TFA site, but as time went by I forgot, loaded in my Taifun and......crack
> It is definitely a glass tank only flavour, so anyone using it take note


Yikes, ok, have added a warning in the description

Reactions: Like 1


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## Waheed (29/1/15)

Derick said:


> Yikes, ok, have added a warning in the description


@Derick I have found that the passion fruit also doesn't agree with the polycarbonate tanks. After vaping a few mls I find it creates a white film on the inside of the tank. Doesn't do this in glass tanks though

Reactions: Informative 1 | Useful 1


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## StingRay999 (29/1/15)

Thank you very much, I will definitely be asking a lot of questions. My first try is going to be with the TFA Fudge Brownie. I am also going to try and improve 3 bottles of VK4 I have that tastes bad. I wonder what the chances are that @Melinda included a random freebie in my package


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## Waheed (29/1/15)

Waheed said:


> Funny you should mention those two, already added them to my shopping cart. Yes I plan on adding the vanilla to see what it does. But also want to try adding it to my caramel tobacco mix ( haven't yet vaped it @ 7% as it's still steeping)


Finally tried the caramel tobacco @7%. It tastes more like honey tobacco in all honesty.


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## Melinda (29/1/15)

StingRay999 said:


> Thank you very much, I will definitely be asking a lot of questions. My first try is going to be with the TFA Fudge Brownie. I am also going to try and improve 3 bottles of VK4 I have that tastes bad. I wonder what the chances are that @Melinda included a random freebie in my package



I'm sorry I didn't  unless you get the wrong parcel then the whole package will be a surprise

Reactions: Funny 4


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## free3dom (29/1/15)

Derick said:


> Yikes, ok, have added a warning in the description



Nice, better to be safe 



Waheed said:


> @Derick I have found that the passion fruit also doesn't agree with the polycarbonate tanks. After vaping a few mls I find it creates a white film on the inside of the tank. Doesn't do this in glass tanks though



Good to know, thanks 


Luckily this is becoming less of a problem as just about every tank released now is made of glass


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## rogue zombie (29/1/15)

I have my first batch steeping.

Kept is easy - one Bavarian, and a strawberry creme de menthe. 8% flavour and 60vg/40pg...

Holding thumbs that I was paying attention in class, and got it right

Reactions: Like 1


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## StingRay999 (29/1/15)

Melinda said:


> I'm sorry I didn't  unless you get the wrong parcel then the whole package will be a surprise



That is fine  I will most likely be placing another order within the next couple of days......


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## free3dom (29/1/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> I have my first batch steeping.
> 
> Kept is easy - one Bavarian, and a strawberry creme de menthe. 8% flavour and 60vg/40pg...
> 
> Holding thumbs that I was paying attention in class, and got it right



If class was anything like this I would have aced everything 

Steeping is torture though 
I've personally been steeping some Strawberry/minty mixes for a week now...they are starting to smell (and look) really nice 
Soon.....

Reactions: Funny 1


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## rogue zombie (29/1/15)

free3dom said:


> If class was anything like this I would have aced everything
> 
> Steeping is torture though
> I've personally been steeping some Strawberry/minty mixes for a week now...they are starting to smell (and look) really nice
> Soon.....


 
With the look of it "looking ready", do you mean the liquid gets darker in colour?
Or is there any other visual distinction that suggests its ready?


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## free3dom (29/1/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> With the look of it "looking ready", do you mean the liquid gets darker in colour?
> Or is there any other visual distinction that suggests its ready?



Well from experience with the other SkyBlue strawberry juices they all seem to be bright yellow when well steeped. 

When I mixed them up they were transparent - I vaped a bit and it was "bleh"...
So I started the long steep and after about 2 days they were getting a bit yellowish. Now after a week they are a nice yellow - not quite as yellow as I'm used to, but very close. 

So I'll leave it a few more days and see what it does

Reactions: Agree 1


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## rogue zombie (29/1/15)

free3dom said:


> Well from experience with the other SkyBlue strawberry juices they all seem to be bright yellow when well steeped.
> 
> When I mixed them up they were transparent - I vaped a bit and it was "bleh"...
> So I started the long steep and after about 2 days they were getting a bit yellowish. Now after a week they are a nice yellow - not quite as yellow as I'm used to, but very close.
> ...


 
Ah okay, thank you.
So I need to get used to the different colours of juices, and judge next time round.

Reactions: Like 1


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## free3dom (29/1/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> Ah okay, thank you.
> So I need to get used to the different colours of juices, and judge next time round.



I think so yes...I'm not too sure about all flavours and their respective colors, but I can now definitely say that strawberry = yellow 

Also...
The energy drink flavour turns a kind of pinkish orange.
The pineapple has almost no color, just a very light "less transparent" look (almost yellow, but not quite). It does not require or change much with steeping though - it's good to go immediately.

Maybe some other folks who have some experience can add what colors the various flavours become with steeping, for reference

Reactions: Like 1


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## Melinda (29/1/15)

The colour change will also depend on Nicotine content, the higher the nicotine the darker the colour and the lower the Nicotine content the lighter-no colour change will be.

I've got no 0mg nic that have changed colour and that goes for the strawberry aswell 

Exception is the TFA Cherry, no matter what the nic content it's still clear....

Reactions: Thanks 2


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## free3dom (29/1/15)

Thanks @Melinda that is very interesting to know - so the flavour determines the color, but only if you add nicotine to the mix...how wonderfully bizarre 

Forgot to mention, the Peppermint flavour I have also stays clear 

Might have to dig out some old chemistry books


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## StingRay999 (29/1/15)

Just finished my first 2 mixes and as was probably with all new to DIY, I just had to try them, and I must say I am fairly impressed.

My first mix is a 40/60 PG/VG mix with 12mg nic (aprox) and 10% RY4 Asian . It has that nice sweet after taste that I like.

My second mix is also a 40/60 PG/VG mix with 12mg nic but with 10% Chocolate Brownie and 2% Sweat Cream. This one tastes really good. It has a great smooth effect on the pallet and leaves a nice chocolaty aftertaste.

Will now leave them to steep and see what they are like after steeping.

Reactions: Like 4


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## gripen (29/1/15)

i have made to batches of dulce de leche.the first one wasn't bad but not as good as i wanted it,the second one came out allot better that one is mixed with a bit of bavarian cream and a bit of coolada,its still steeping but smelled really good


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## Luke5533 (29/1/15)

Ok so I'm about to try my first DIY flavour. Its not so much as much a new flavour as it is an improvement to my existing flavours. Im going to add 1 part glycerin to 2 parts flavour. As far as I understand, all i have to do is add the glycerin to the flavour and allow it to steep. But is it REALLY necessary to let it steep? All im doing is adding VG to an existing flavour, steeping doesn't seem necessary?


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## free3dom (29/1/15)

Luke5533 said:


> Ok so I'm about to try my first DIY flavour. Its not so much as much a new flavour as it is an improvement to my existing flavours. Im going to add 1 part glycerin to 2 parts flavour. As far as I understand, all i have to do is add the glycerin to the flavour and allow it to steep. But is it REALLY necessary to let it steep? All im doing is adding VG to an existing flavour, steeping doesn't seem necessary?



Steeping will probably get you back some of the lost flavour due to diluting it, but not much. Try it without steeping and then later after steeping - it's the best way to learn how a particular juice responds when diluted 

TL;DR it's never *required* to steep, but it *can* make things better

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## free3dom (29/1/15)

StingRay999 said:


> Just finished my first 2 mixes and as was probably with all new to DIY, I just had to try them, and I must say I am fairly impressed.
> 
> My first mix is a 40/60 PG/VG mix with 12mg nic (aprox) and 10% RY4 Asian . It has that nice sweet after taste that I like.
> 
> ...



Nicely done 

That first successful DIY is just amazing..having, uhm, well...done it yourself 

Some flavours really get much better with steeping, while others don't change much at all, so experimentation is key

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Thanks 1


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## rogue zombie (29/1/15)

I smelled my juices for the first time since mixing on Monday... They are smelling goooood \o/

I am hopeful

Reactions: Like 3


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## Derick (30/1/15)

Waheed said:


> @Derick I have found that the passion fruit also doesn't agree with the polycarbonate tanks. After vaping a few mls I find it creates a white film on the inside of the tank. Doesn't do this in glass tanks though


Cool, thanks - will take a look this evening


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## rogue zombie (2/2/15)

I have a question - @Melinda told me 2 weeks to steep.

However, I wanted a taster and tried both my mixes, a week after mixing.

I wasn't impressed with either really. So after a week, is the flavour pretty much what I can expect in the next week? Or can it change quite a bit still?

I'm worried I'm going to end up chucking my first 40ml's


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## Waheed (2/2/15)

Hi @r0gue z0mbie. I have found that steeping does improve the flavour of the juice. I can't really say if there is a major difference between a week and two weeks but I know after a week there is a more rounded deeper flavour than vaping just after mixing. For some flavours a longer steep time does change the flavor, e.g tobacco flavours taste much better the longer they steeped. Another word of novice advice would be to make 10 mls at a time instead of 20 ml. Enjoy the creative experience

Reactions: Like 1


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## rogue zombie (2/2/15)

Waheed said:


> Hi @r0gue z0mbie. I have found that steeping does improve the flavour of the juice. I can't really say if there is a major difference between a week and two weeks but I know after a week there is a more rounded deeper flavour than vaping just after mixing. For some flavours a longer steep time does change the flavor, e.g tobacco flavours taste much better the longer they steeped. Another word of novice advice would be to make 10 mls at a time instead of 20 ml. Enjoy the creative experience



Ah okay, thank you.

Ya I'll go with 10mls next time


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## free3dom (2/2/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> Ah okay, thank you.
> 
> Ya I'll go with 10mls next time



Steep time and the flavour change it gives is highly dependent on the flavouring used, as well as the number of flavours/additives used. Some gain almost nothing from steeping while others taste like crap unless very well steeped. It is a bit of a "try and see taste" affair 

For testing small amounts you can also try heat steeping to speed up the process...it won't be quite as good as slow and steady steeping, but it does provide quick and tangible results

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Arthster (2/2/15)

My own as well as my bought juices sits in the bottom of my very dark vape case for at least a week after I purchased them before I vape on them

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## free3dom (3/2/15)

Arthster said:


> My own as well as my bought juices sits in the bottom of my very dark vape case for at least a week after I purchased them before I vape on them



But what if they get lonely 
I play with mine immediately after arrival..._then_ I lock them up

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## UnholyMunk (3/2/15)

I made a 10ml batch of TFA Black Cherry at 50/50 with 10mg nic and 8% flavour. So far it smells amazing, but I'm waiting a week before trying it.
I also made a 5ml batch of Dulce de Leche also at 50/50 with 10mg nic and 8% flavour. The smell of the de leche is not as strong as the black cherry, but if it's not good, at least it's only a 5ml bottle 

I will post results/impressions when I give them a taste

Reactions: Like 2


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## free3dom (3/2/15)

UnholyMunk said:


> I made a 10ml batch of TFA Black Cherry at 50/50 with 10mg nic and 8% flavour. So far it smells amazing, but I'm waiting a week before trying it.
> I also made a 5ml batch of Dulce de Leche also at 50/50 with 10mg nic and 8% flavour. The smell of the de leche is not as strong as the black cherry, but if it's not good, at least it's only a 5ml bottle
> 
> I will post results/impressions when I give them a taste



You should try a little bit just after mixing...it might taste weak/crap/etc but it is very interesting to taste just how much (or not at all) the stuff improves with time


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## Waheed (3/2/15)

UnholyMunk said:


> I made a 10ml batch of TFA Black Cherry at 50/50 with 10mg nic and 8% flavour. So far it smells amazing, but I'm waiting a week before trying it.
> I also made a 5ml batch of Dulce de Leche also at 50/50 with 10mg nic and 8% flavour. The smell of the de leche is not as strong as the black cherry, but if it's not good, at least it's only a 5ml bottle
> 
> I will post results/impressions when I give them a taste


I am eagerly awaiting the feedback on the dulce. The black cherry is good and IMO matures nicely after two to three weeks.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UnholyMunk (3/2/15)

free3dom said:


> You should try a little bit just after mixing...it might taste weak/crap/etc but it is very interesting to taste just how much (or not at all) the stuff improves with time



I've been told by a few vapers that there is no point in trying out the juice within the first 3 days, as the ingredients haven't mixed properly yet and that you will get an inaccurate flavour profile from the mix. I'd love to try out my mixes as I make them, but I've been told so many times from so many people it's just not worth it, that I just am too scared now to give it a go...

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## Raslin (3/2/15)

To quote Bill from ECF, if a mix tastes good directly after mixing it can get better with steeping. But if it tastes bad chances are steeping will not help.....

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## free3dom (3/2/15)

UnholyMunk said:


> I've been told by a few vapers that there is no point in trying out the juice within the first 3 days, as the ingredients haven't mixed properly yet and that you will get an inaccurate flavour profile from the mix. I'd love to try out my mixes as I make them, but I've been told so many times from so many people it's just not worth it, that I just am too scared now to give it a go...



They are correct, in a way - it is not so good sometimes - but sometimes it's almost perfect right off the bat. I taste each one - just a little taste - and then compare it to well steeped. Some flavours require almost no steeping and unless you taste it after mixing you will forever steep them without any need for it


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## Derick (3/2/15)

Yeah, steeping is very flavour dependent - I also taste after mixing and over all, steeping tends to round out things a bit, but if there is a taste to it that you don't like, then I doubt steeping would make a difference.

All bets are off with tobacco flavours though, some can go from horrible to pretty freaking awesome after 3 months of steeping

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## John (3/2/15)

I've made 2 successful batches of juice so far - Peaches and cream and Strawberries and cream, both at 70vg/30pg, 3mg nic and 10% Flavour. I combined the heat steeping method to aid with mixing and left them to steep in 50ml brown medicine bottles for two weeks. 

S+C is an awesome, creamy milkshake - my wife says it smells like Nesquick haha. Peaches and cream is less creamy but definately more fruity. I've got 15ml batches of RY4 Double and Amaretto on the steep for about a week now, same ratios as above. I sampled the Amaretto this morning and I feel it needs a percent or two more concentrate - both the RY4 and Amaretto smell great so far but I'm gonna try the RY4 in a dripper this evening and give them both another week or so to steep

Got a batch of concentrate and base ingredients from the good folks over at SkyBlue today so will be mixing up a batch of each this week. Bottles have been an issue for me, had to wait to empty bottles before I mixed more but I found a place that wholesales bottles today and for about R170 I got 10x50ml, 10x30ml, 5x100ml, 10x30ml + pipette droppers, (all brown glass) as well as 10x30ml and 10x10ml plastic droppers. So Now I have a years' supply of bottles ha ha.

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## rogue zombie (3/2/15)

Lol I think I know where I botched it.

Much to my surprise, Bavarian Cream and Strawberry Mint have a common flavour. Well, mine do. The damn Smoothening agent.
You supposed to use a minimal ammount to smooth your liquids out. Too much results in a "fruity" taste... as my creations do.

I obviously botched the ammount and put too much in.

The annoying thing is it doesn't taste like any fruit in particular. Just this weird, sweet... stuff.

DOH!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Derick (3/2/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> Lol I think I know where I botched it.
> 
> Much to my surprise, Bavarian Cream and Strawberry Mint have a common flavour. Well, mine do. The damn Smoothening agent.
> You supposed to use a minimal ammount to smooth your liquids out. Too much results in a "fruity" taste... as my creations do.
> ...


heh, I usually have a taste of the stuff before adding any smooth - some flavours really don't need it. Then I add some and compare, if smooth improves it, it stays, otherwise I leave it out.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Raslin (3/2/15)

@Derick, that's a question I was planning not ask, what are the guidelines regarding smooth?


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## Derick (3/2/15)

Raslin said:


> @Derick, that's a question I was planning not ask, what are the guidelines regarding smooth?


Smooth is really just there when a mix you have made has some rough edges - think pineapple flavour, it can be quite harsh on the throat when you have a strong mix, smooth will round that sharp edge out.

With complex mixes, the strong/harsh flavours will be brought down a tad, which might have the effect of bring the background flavours out more.

In general no more than 2% smooth, more than that and you start tasting smooth itself - the fruity flavour that was mentioned.

I start out at 0.5% and add more from there, if by 2% it is not doing anything to smooth your flavour, it is probably not going to  - then maybe look at reducing the flavour component that is causing the harsh edge

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## Raslin (3/2/15)

Great thanks, I just mixed some pineapple at 8% yesterday. I will try using smooth on that. Is it true that smooth also adds 'volume' or thickness to the feel of the vapour?


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## Derick (3/2/15)

Raslin said:


> Great thanks, I just mixed some pineapple at 8% yesterday. I will try using smooth on that. Is it true that smooth also adds 'volume' or thickness to the feel of the vapour?


It does yep, but it is a subtle effect, don't expect it to taste like pure VG or anything

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## rogue zombie (5/2/15)

The best part of my debut mixes is discovering Creme de Menthe.... wow its nice.
I'm not even the biggest mint fan, but this is such a nice mint.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Derick (5/2/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> The best part of my debut mixes is discovering Creme de Menthe.... wow its nice.
> I'm not even the biggest mint fan, but this is such a nice mint.


Oh I love that Creme De Menthe, I keep on adding it to flavours it should have no business in

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## rogue zombie (5/2/15)

Derick said:


> Oh I love that Creme De Menthe, I keep on adding it to flavours it should have no business in



Lol, ya I'm thinking of EVERYTHING that I can stick it in.

I do reckon Pineapple will be stunning with with it.


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## Derick (5/2/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> Lol, ya I'm thinking of EVERYTHING that I can stick it in.
> 
> I do reckon Pineapple will be stunning with with it.


haha, awesome, yep, I have added it to tobacco mixes too


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## rogue zombie (11/2/15)

I just have another question: I ordered a few bits to try spruce up my mixes.

I initially made them 8% flavour, and so they can use a wee bit more flavour.

My question is, if I add a few extra flavour drops to already steeped juice, do I need to step again for 2 weeks?

Or is it case of just a good shake up and vape?


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## Derick (11/2/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> I just have another question: I ordered a few bits to try spruce up my mixes.
> 
> I initially made them 8% flavour, and so they can use a wee bit more flavour.
> 
> ...


I don't think a few drops will make a difference with steeping, so go ahead and give it a bash - big thing is, especially in the beginning is to just experiment and adjust it to your liking - and of course take notes! - So that next time you know to make it stronger

Careful with making it too strong though, it might taste too weak when you first taste it, but by the end of a tank you will be singing a different tune

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## rogue zombie (11/2/15)

Derick said:


> I don't think a few drops will make a difference with steeping, so go ahead and give it a bash - big thing is, especially in the beginning is to just experiment and adjust it to your liking - and of course take notes! - So that next time you know to make it stronger
> 
> Careful with making it too strong though, it might taste too weak when you first taste it, but by the end of a tank you will be singing a different tune



Ya I've been scribbling notes like a mad man.

Oh yes of coarse, maybe I should just make a new batch.

I used your strawberry and cream to make strawberry mint, and it's just not strawberry enough. So I bought strawberry alone to add.


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## Derick (11/2/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> Ya I've been scribbling notes like a mad man.
> 
> Oh yes of coarse, maybe I should just make a new batch.
> 
> I used your strawberry and cream to make strawberry mint, and it's just not strawberry enough. So I bought strawberry alone to add.


I generally give a flavour a few days of tasting before I make up my mind - some flavours somehow just grows on you the more you vape them, plus while vaping over a few days you get some extra ideas of what to add, or maybe even remove

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## Raslin (11/2/15)

@Derick, just some feedback, I mixed the pineapple at 8% in a 9mg 60/40 mix and it's brilliant. 

Also mixed cappuccino @10% with sweetcream @2% still a bit to creamy. So next batch is minus the cream.


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## Derick (11/2/15)

Raslin said:


> @Derick, just some feedback, I mixed the pineapple at 8% in a 9mg 60/40 mix and it's brilliant.
> 
> Also mixed cappuccino @10% with sweetcream @2% still a bit to creamy. So next batch is minus the cream.


Nice!
I mixed cuppuccino with 4% cream the first time - tasted like coffee flavoured frothed milk!

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## free3dom (11/2/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> Ya I've been scribbling notes like a mad man.
> 
> Oh yes of coarse, maybe I should just make a new batch.
> 
> I used your strawberry and cream to make strawberry mint, and it's just not strawberry enough. So I bought strawberry alone to add.



I use the CAP Sweet Strawberry and it's a really potent and well defined strawberry...mixed one with peppermint and another with spearmint - both were fantastically good, and even just the plain strawberry by itself was quite awesome

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## rogue zombie (12/2/15)

free3dom said:


> I use the CAP Sweet Strawberry and it's a really potent and well defined strawberry...mixed one with peppermint and another with spearmint - both were fantastically good, and even just the plain strawberry by itself was quite awesome



I ordered that one, thank you 

What percentage strawberry do you use for a strawberry mint?


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## free3dom (12/2/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> I ordered that one, thank you
> 
> What percentage strawberry do you use for a strawberry mint?



I used 8% Strawberry 2% Peppermint/Spearmint for the mixes. 
At this ratio both the strawberry and mint were very well defined - I was actually thinking of trying it at 9% Strawberry 1% mint, to see what that is like.

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## rogue zombie (12/2/15)

free3dom said:


> I used 8% Strawberry 2% Peppermint/Spearmint for the mixes.
> At this ratio both the strawberry and mint were very well defined - I was actually thinking of trying it at 9% Strawberry 1% mint, to see what that is like.



Awesome thank you.
I'll go with 2% mint because Creme de Mente is heavenly stuff

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## free3dom (12/2/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> Awesome thank you.
> I'll go with 2% mint because Creme de Mente is heavenly stuff



Sounds good 
I still want to try it with some other mints as well...Sweet Strawberry + (any mint) is a great fit IMO

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Derick (12/2/15)

free3dom said:


> Sounds good
> I still want to try it with some other mints as well...Sweet Strawberry + (any mint) is a great fit IMO


What I have found with the mints is that they seem to 'build-up' in your mouth as you are vaping - so 2% is great for the first 10 hits or so, but by the end of the tank all you can taste is mint and the other flavour is just a background note.

So I've taken to just putting .5% mint in, then you don't get mint on the first few hits, but eventually it starts seeping through, giving a bit of a different dimension to the vape the longer you vape it

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## rogue zombie (12/2/15)

Derick said:


> What I have found with the mints is that they seem to 'build-up' in your mouth as you are vaping - so 2% is great for the first 10 hits or so, but by the end of the tank all you can taste is mint and the other flavour is just a background note.
> 
> So I've taken to just putting .5% mint in, then you don't get mint on the first few hits, but eventually it starts seeping through, giving a bit of a different dimension to the vape the longer you vape it



Interesting. 
And ya I have found in the past that some juices are just too minty. Probably why I'm not normally a fan.

I like the mint being there, but not taking over.

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## free3dom (12/2/15)

Derick said:


> What I have found with the mints is that they seem to 'build-up' in your mouth as you are vaping - so 2% is great for the first 10 hits or so, but by the end of the tank all you can taste is mint and the other flavour is just a background note.
> 
> So I've taken to just putting .5% mint in, then you don't get mint on the first few hits, but eventually it starts seeping through, giving a bit of a different dimension to the vape the longer you vape it



Aha...that makes a lot of sense. I vape it mostly as my secondary juice for that reason - thought I was just crazy 
This is why I've been wanting to take it down a bit - to see what would happen 
Now I know the real reason...thanks @Derick

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## WHITELABEL (12/2/15)

I'm also finding the mint is stronger at higher wattages. I did a choc mint, 8% peppermint, 4% double choc, 0.5 koolada, 1% sucralose that's really nice in the rose at 20w, but if I stick it in the goblin on the mech all I get is freezing peppermint.

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## Derick (12/2/15)

Gambit said:


> I'm also finding the mint is stronger at higher wattages. I did a choc mint, 8% peppermint, 4% double choc, 0.5 koolada, 1% sucralose that's really nice in the rose at 20w, but if I stick it in the goblin on the mech all I get is freezing peppermint.


Yeah, mint is a funny beast - doesn't act like any of the other flavours

Reactions: Agree 1


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## rogue zombie (12/2/15)

Gambit said:


> I'm also finding the mint is stronger at higher wattages. I did a choc mint, 8% peppermint, 4% double choc, 0.5 koolada, 1% sucralose that's really nice in the rose at 20w, but if I stick it in the goblin on the mech all I get is freezing peppermint.



Yip, I find the same.

I vape low watts at around 1,2ohm on the iStick during the day, and the mint juices are way less "fresh" than when I go 0,5 ohm 20watts and up at home.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## rogue zombie (12/2/15)

But this is why I like Creme de menthe so much.
I think I mixed around 2%, and it killed the strawberries and cream, but even on high watts, its not that burny mint.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## free3dom (12/2/15)

Gambit said:


> I'm also finding the mint is stronger at higher wattages. I did a choc mint, 8% peppermint, 4% double choc, 0.5 koolada, 1% sucralose that's really nice in the rose at 20w, but if I stick it in the goblin on the mech all I get is freezing peppermint.



I've had that same experience...the mint + (something) really shines at lower wattages (12W to 20W)...higher than that and it takes over

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MurderDoll (12/2/15)

So I have pretty much hit a dire situation now.

My liquid that I brought with me is now basically finished.

So in a desperate attempt, I am going to try and see if i can source some VG and liquid nicotine.

I know for VG i can just ask the local to source some Vegetable Glycerine. That shouldn't be too difficult to find.

The problem though is the Nicotine.

Do I just tell him to try find liquid Nicotine or is there something a little more specific I can ask him to find?

Im working with a semi language barrier here. So I can't get too technical with my explanation to him.

Anyone with advice for me please?


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## Derick (12/2/15)

Zodd said:


> So I have pretty much hit a dire situation now.
> 
> My liquid that I brought with me is now basically finished.
> 
> ...


Where are you at?

Liquid nicotine can only be bought from chemical supply companies - Pharmaceutical grade is 99% or better, but you want to get the purest you can find.

Some countries would require you to be a pharmacist/scientist etc. to buy pure nicotine, and rightly so, because the fumes from pure nicotine can make you deathly sick, if not kill you - not to mention if you happen to spill some on your skin, or god forbid, get some in your mouth.

People don't know about _Vegetable _Glycerine - just ask for some pharmaceutical grade Glycerine

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MurderDoll (12/2/15)

Derick said:


> Where are you at?
> 
> Liquid nicotine can only be bought from chemical supply companies - Pharmaceutical grade is 99% or better, but you want to get the purest you can find.
> 
> ...




Iraq.

So unfortunately its not very easy for me to go round and try source the best possible grade I can find.
At the moment I need to just get some eliquid to get me through the next week or so.


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## Derick (12/2/15)

Zodd said:


> Iraq.
> 
> So unfortunately its not very easy for me to go round and try source the best possible grade I can find.
> At the moment I need to just get some eliquid to get me through the next week or so.


You can ask for liquid nic, but I doubt that it is something that is readily available - at least it is not readily available in SA to the general consumer - lab companies and chemical companies have it, but there's no retail side.

I suggest you just get some glycerin and vape away on that - I know you are gonna miss the nic, but just think of how good that first nic-laced vape is gonna be when you get back


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## MurderDoll (12/2/15)

Derick said:


> You can ask for liquid nic, but I doubt that it is something that is readily available - at least it is not readily available in SA to the general consumer - lab companies and chemical companies have it, but there's no retail side.
> 
> I suggest you just get some glycerin and vape away on that - I know you are gonna miss the nic, but just think of how good that first nic-laced vape is gonna be when you get back




Ha ha. 
If i can get hold of VG at the very least, Ill be happy with that. Something is better than nothing. Right?


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## Derick (12/2/15)

Zodd said:


> Ha ha.
> If i can get hold of VG at the very least, Ill be happy with that. Something is better than nothing. Right?


yep, and you should be able to get pharmaceutical grade Glycerin at any place that sells baby products - it is often used as a remedy for babies that are cutting teeth

They might call it Glycerin or Glycerol - same thing - even if you can't find pharmaceutical grade, the stuff titled 'pure' is ok in a bind - seeing as you are only going to vape it for a week or so


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## WHITELABEL (13/2/15)

If you can get hold of some nice pipe tobacco you can make yourself a decent extract. Pg works better but you can soak the tobacco in the VG and give it a hot water bath for a couple hours. it will at least give your juice some flavour and a bit of nic.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## rogue zombie (21/2/15)

My second batch of jooses are maturing... And actually not tasting bad at all.

My first batch was ruined with me going a little crazy will Smoothener, but I got the second batch down.

I now have two flavours that I can just tweak a little, to improve.

I have been obsessed with cooking for a long time now. So I have a decent knowledge or understanding of flavour, and thanks to this thread, I was able to get past the daunting "mixing" aspect... so now I can just play till I come up with something great

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## Derick (21/2/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> My second batch of jooses are maturing... And actually not bad at all.
> 
> My first batch was ruined with me going a little crazy will Smoothener, but I got the second batch down.
> 
> ...


Awesome

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## Necris (19/3/15)

Quick question @Derick and diy'ers in general
following ejuicemeup i put together a 6mg 10ml menthol 2%,koolada 2%and mint candy 1% mix,with
2% EM to keep things civil.
tasted it after a good stirring and i had zero menthol with a puff of koolada on the exhale.
Also knocked me a silver in 3 puffs.
Now i know i followed the recipe,i have checked it in 3 calculators and come up with the same ml's drops etc?
Do menthol's require steeping,or did i stuff up somewhere.
i have left it in a cupboard overnight,and am starting to get some mint candy from it,but no menthol hits the nose.
will brave another taste test in a bit


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## WHeunis (19/3/15)

Necris said:


> Quick question @Derick and diy'ers in general
> following ejuicemeup i put together a 6mg 10ml menthol 2%,koolada 2%and mint candy 1% mix,with
> 2% EM to keep things civil.
> tasted it after a good stirring and i had zero menthol with a puff of koolada on the exhale.
> ...



My personal mix for that recipe is:

5% Koolada, 6% Menthol, 2% Mint.
Tastes a little bit like Listerine chewing gum!
Love it!

I steep my menthol/mint/clear flavours only for about an hour on the router. Give it a good swirl/shake every few minutes.


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## WHITELABEL (19/3/15)

Necris said:


> Quick question @Derick and diy'ers in general
> following ejuicemeup i put together a 6mg 10ml menthol 2%,koolada 2%and mint candy 1% mix,with
> 2% EM to keep things civil.
> tasted it after a good stirring and i had zero menthol with a puff of koolada on the exhale.
> ...


What is your PG/VG ratio? I find menthols, mints and koolada are all strongest fresh after mixing, steeping them lets the mint fade and other flavours start to come through. So not sure what's going on with your recipe. You sure you set the calculator for 6mg nic bearing in mind you're using a 36mg solution? This is the calculator I'm using and it's really easy to follow. Just check that you using the same quantities:







Entered values based on 36mg nic solution in 100%pg. and a 50/50 pgvg ratio for the final juice. Hope that helps!


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## Puff&Pass (19/3/15)

Derick said:


> Where are you at?
> 
> Liquid nicotine can only be bought from chemical supply companies - Pharmaceutical grade is 99% or better, but you want to get the purest you can find.
> 
> ...


I have done some VG research lately, cause I bought pharmaceutical Glycerine, it tastes exactly the same, only difference I could find in some reviews is that VG is basically made of plant oil, where the Pharmaceutical one is made from oils in animal fat...could u guys confirm or have anyone found the same information?


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## Necris (19/3/15)

Looks pretty much the same animal,aside from VG/PG level and vg nic.
I added menthol at 2% as well though.
I initially used E-Juice lab




Ejuicemeup has a slightly different pg/vg allocation

Reactions: Like 2


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## WHITELABEL (19/3/15)

Necris said:


> Looks pretty much the same animal,aside from VG/PG level and vg nic.
> I added menthol at 2% as well though.
> I initially used E-Juice lab
> 
> ...


Looks good to me. Can only suggest you make another 10ml sample and see if it comes out the same.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Puff&Pass (19/3/15)

Necris said:


> Quick question @Derick and diy'ers in general
> following ejuicemeup i put together a 6mg 10ml menthol 2%,koolada 2%and mint candy 1% mix,with
> 2% EM to keep things civil.
> tasted it after a good stirring and i had zero menthol with a puff of koolada on the exhale.
> ...


You could steep it in a glass of hot water if you wanna speed up the process, VG/PG is very heat sensitive, so thins out in hot water.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Necris (19/3/15)

Frankly,im going to follow @Dericks advice,simplify.
mix a 10ml 50/50 no nic flavour only,once i have something resembling what i am after(frostbite) i can start messing with higher vg content.
I still struggle to believe that frostbite is 50/50...the clouds man the clouds


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## yuganp (19/3/15)

Are you using the EM as a 10% solution - i.e. mix about a 1/4 teaspoon of the crystals with 10 ml of pg?

Too much EM overpowers everything. I use between 0.5% and 1% of the 10% EM solution in my menthol mixes.

Low wattage mixes are 3% menthol, 1.5% koolada and 0.5% EM solution.
High wattage mixes are 1.5% menthol, 1.5% koolada and 0.5% EM solution.


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## Necris (19/3/15)

yuganp said:


> Are you using the EM as a 10% solution - i.e. mix about a 1/4 teaspoon of the crystals with 10 ml of pg?
> 
> Too much EM overpowers everything. I use between 0.5% and 1% of the 10% EM solution in my menthol mixes.
> 
> ...



Correct,1.25 ml of EM crystals diluted in 10 ml pg.used 2% as per above calcs
ran under hot water while mixing.
possible i have aded too much EM,will try with none first and add as needed for taste.
should have my 50/50 no nic trial mixed in a few minutes...damn work thing keeps interrupting my DIY

fyi,watermelon candy lingers...everything still smells like watermelon

Reactions: Like 1


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## free3dom (19/3/15)

Necris said:


> Looks pretty much the same animal,aside from VG/PG level and vg nic.
> I added menthol at 2% as well though.
> I initially used E-Juice lab
> 
> ...



Your E-Juice lab recipe is missing Peppermint, hence the difference in PG/VG allocation 

If you are missing the menthol, simply try increasing it slowly (1% at a time) 
This goes for any mix, once you have a recipe, simply increase that flavour (and/or decrease strong flavours) by a small amount to find your balance. If only one flavour is weak, you can even add the concentrate directly to the weak mix and let it steep a bit (depending on what it is you are adding) - this is a bit of a hack, but can give you a quick indication of how well this would work before actually creating an entire new batch.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Necris (19/3/15)

10ml 50/50 pg vg base mixed in boiled,washed and dried glassware.
popped it on top of the router until it mixed nicely and gave it a few swirls.
will have to build a stirrer,need efficiency.
No more swirling in the base,stirring between each flavouradded Mint Candy(2 drops),Menthol(4 drops)


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## Necris (19/3/15)

edging closer to what im looking for


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## WHITELABEL (19/3/15)

That's a ton of menthol and koolada, I don't ever go over 2 or 3% and even that is too much for me fresh.


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## WHeunis (19/3/15)

Gambit said:


> That's a ton of menthol and koolada, I don't ever go over 2 or 3% and even that is too much for me fresh.



Koolada I always do 5% minimum (works out to the recommended 1 drop per ml).
Menthol it depends if i'm using it as a primary or secondary flavour...
Especially against weaker flavours like strawberry; Gotta be real gentle with it then; but otherwise as a primary, 5% is as low as I go...


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## Derick (19/3/15)

Menthol can be a funny thing and yep EM will definitely mute it - but 2% should definitely give you something - I generally use around 3% and it leaves me with a fresh mouth for a good 20 minutes after a vape session.

Is the menthol mix ok?


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## Necris (19/3/15)

Gambit said:


> That's a ton of menthol and koolada, I don't ever go over 2 or 3% and even that is too much for me fresh.


Im attempting to replicate frostbite as a base for menthol fruit ice mixes.
Frostbite cools on inhale and exhale.have now managed to get somewhere close to the menthol and icy levels required on exhale...but there is more too this flavour.menthol gives inhale cold,koolada throat
Purposefully have added no EM this time round.
I eventually thought my koolada is dodgy and dripped a drop on my dripper with some vg....No...it works


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## Necris (19/3/15)

Derick said:


> Is the menthol mix ok?


Cant say i would know if it wasn't,straight from the DIY kit.
Im sitting with frostbite in one hand and my diy in the other.
i have successfully created the type of menthol juice i don't like,sweetish,flat and warm with a slight chill on exhale.
now i need ICE on inhale.

have decanted into a 10ml and will leave to steep overnight


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## Derick (19/3/15)

Puff&Pass said:


> I have done some VG research lately, cause I bought pharmaceutical Glycerine, it tastes exactly the same, only difference I could find in some reviews is that VG is basically made of plant oil, where the Pharmaceutical one is made from oils in animal fat...could u guys confirm or have anyone found the same information?


@Puff&Pass You get two types of Glycerin in pharmaceutical grade: Vegetable Glycerin and Glycerin

Once you have the finished product it is impossible to tell which one it is, as they end up as exactly the same chemical with formula C3H8O3.

So the difference is only in preparation. Vegetable Glycerin is made from plant matter as you said, and normal Glycerin can be made from various substances, like fats and oils - and some of these can be derived from animals.

The distinction is only important if you are vegetarian/vegan or otherwise concerned about animal parts being used in your products.

The difference between pharmaceutical grade and normal 'pure glycerin' that some pharmacies have is the purity. Pharmaceutical grade has to be at least 99.0% pure, with limits as to what can be in the remaining 1%.

The 'pure' stuff can be pretty much anything from 80% up with no regulation as to what the other 20% can be, as long as it is not toxic. So for vaping we all pretty much stick to pharmaceutical grade.

Pharmaceutical grades get a classification, and each country has their own grading system, but they are all pretty much the same when it comes to VG. So in SA British Pharmaceutical (BP) is used, but you can also find USP here. There are plenty of other countries grades too, like JSP, EUSP etc.

Reactions: Thanks 1 | Informative 1


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## Derick (19/3/15)

Necris said:


> Cant say i would know if it wasn't,straight from the DIY kit.
> Im sitting with frostbite in one hand and my diy in the other.
> i have successfully created the type of menthol juice i don't like,sweetish,flat and warm with a slight chill on exhale.
> now i need ICE on inhale.
> ...


Well, the menthol you got should be pretty potent, does it smell strongly like menthol, or did we screw up and just gave you PG

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Necris (19/3/15)

Derick said:


> Well, the menthol you got should be pretty potent, does it smell strongly like menthol, or did we screw up and just gave you PG


Packed away the kit for the drive home sadly.does have a slight menthol scent.not strong though.

Mint candy is clearly mint,where menthol is a bit less distinct


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## Derick (19/3/15)

Necris said:


> Packed away the kit for the drive home sadly.does have a slight menthol scent.not strong though.
> 
> Mint candy is clearly mint,where menthol is a bit less distinct


Yeah, the mints are usually more potent - the menthol as it is, is what we use for our menthol mixes too


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## Derick (19/3/15)

Give the steeping a go, then we chat again, see if it is better

Reactions: Like 1


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## WHeunis (19/3/15)

Necris said:


> Cant say i would know if it wasn't,straight from the DIY kit.
> Im sitting with frostbite in one hand and my diy in the other.
> i have successfully created the type of menthol juice i don't like,sweetish,flat and warm with a slight chill on exhale.
> now i need ICE on inhale.
> ...



I get what youre saying!
First time I tried to recreate the Menthol Ice, or SB Frostbite - came decently close but I could never get the "mouth freeze" up by enough.
Koolada is doing it's job (exhale/throat freeze); And doing it fantastically.
But I just couldn't ever get the menthol mouth-freeze amounts to go up by very much. Eventually I just settled at where I had it and splashed some mint in there for an extra pop in flavour.
Like I said, I now have some sort of Listerine Chewing Gum thing going on - loving it!
But, yeah... Never could get that mouth-freeze from the menthol to go up very much at all after a certain medium point.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## yuganp (19/3/15)

@Derick I just checked the site and the menthol is a 10% solution. Was not the previous TFA menthol that you had a 66% solution? i bought a few bottles and know that after a while it used to crystallize and needed to be warmed up before using.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WHITELABEL (19/3/15)

WHeunis said:


> Koolada I always do 5% minimum (works out to the recommended 1 drop per ml).
> Menthol it depends if i'm using it as a primary or secondary flavour...
> Especially against weaker flavours like strawberry; Gotta be real gentle with it then; but otherwise as a primary, 5% is as low as I go...


You guys have iron lungs or something that's way too much for me.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Derick (19/3/15)

yuganp said:


> @Derick I just checked the site and the menthol is a 10% solution. Was not the previous TFA menthol that you had a 66% solution? i bought a few bottles and know that after a while it used to crystallize and needed to be warmed up before using.


Yep, the menthol we got from TFA was a 66% solution and was crazy expensive and just too strong - we got lots of complaints that even a few drops was too much, so we got some pharmaceutical grade menthol crystals and made a 10% solution - that is from research I did in various forums and is pretty much what everyone uses.

But if it is turning out too weak, we can certainly change it and up the menthol a bit

Reactions: Like 1


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## Viper_SA (19/3/15)

Derick said:


> @Puff&Pass You get two types of Glycerin in pharmaceutical grade: Vegetable Glycerin and Glycerin
> 
> Once you have the finished product it is impossible to tell which one it is, as they end up as exactly the same chemical with formula C3H8O3.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that cool explanation @Derick. Saw some Propylene Glycol MC on the Springbok Pharmacy website. Any idea what the MC means? They are not very communicative unfortunately. Been waiting a few days for a reply from them on this question


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## Puff&Pass (19/3/15)

Derick said:


> @Puff&Pass You get two types of Glycerin in pharmaceutical grade: Vegetable Glycerin and Glycerin
> 
> Once you have the finished product it is impossible to tell which one it is, as they end up as exactly the same chemical with formula C3H8O3.
> 
> ...


Thanx derrick I got the BP, and was smoking with one eye close till, about now....lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## yuganp (19/3/15)

Derick said:


> Yep, the menthol we got from TFA was a 66% solution and was crazy expensive and just too strong - we got lots of complaints that even a few drops was too much, so we got some pharmaceutical grade menthol crystals and made a 10% solution - that is from research I did in various forums and is pretty much what everyone uses.
> 
> But if it is turning out too weak, we can certainly change it and up the menthol a bit



My percentage of between 1.5% and 3% was based on using the 66% solution. Knowing what percentage solution is used is very important as now my percentage will be between 10% and 20% using the 10% menthol solution. Thats were some of the misconception occurred.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Necris (19/3/15)

Gambit said:


> You guys have iron lungs or something that's way too much for me.


lung hitting frostbite 6mg at 0.7 in the orchid all day does things to you 
i wasn't even a menthol fan,and then i got a freebie of frostbite at a vape meet,has been an adv since


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## Derick (20/3/15)

Viper_SA said:


> Thanks for that cool explanation @Derick. Saw some Propylene Glycol MC on the Springbok Pharmacy website. Any idea what the MC means? They are not very communicative unfortunately. Been waiting a few days for a reply from them on this question


From what I can find it _seems_ to be the same thing, but I'm no chemist and I can't seem to find what the MC stands for.


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## Derick (20/3/15)

yuganp said:


> My percentage of between 1.5% and 3% was based on using the 66% solution. Knowing what percentage solution is used is very important as now my percentage will be between 10% and 20% using the 10% menthol solution. Thats were some of the misconception occurred.


yeah that does not seem feasable - I think we will adjust and try again


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## Necris (20/3/15)

Steeping,meet Gaming

Reactions: Like 5


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## Melinda (20/3/15)

Necris said:


> Steeping,meet Gaming



Gosh that is a clean case, I'm to embarrassed to take a pick of the inside of my computer!!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Necris (20/3/15)

Melinda said:


> Gosh that is a clean case, I'm to embarrassed to take a pick of the inside of my computer!!


I live really close to the sea,so every intake is double filtered or everything rusts.I wish i could take credit for dusting.
But thank you.
however,once you get used to the rust...it certainly has its benefits

Reactions: Like 2


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## Puff&Pass (20/3/15)

Derick said:


> From what I can find it _seems_ to be the same thing, but I'm no chemist and I can't seem to find what the MC stands for.


One more question Derick, I've noticed that the higher the PG concentration in juice the more it burns my throat, so have resulted in avoiding the higher PG blends I have. Is PG/VG equally safe for use? Maybe I'm just PG sensitive? Was thinkin of using maybe a little more distilled water in VG blends.

Reactions: Like 2


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## free3dom (21/3/15)

Puff&Pass said:


> One more question Derick, I've noticed that the higher the PG concentration in juice the more it burns my throat, so have resulted in avoiding the higher PG blends I have. Is PG/VG equally safe for use? Maybe I'm just PG sensitive? Was thinkin of using maybe a little more distilled water in VG blends.



Indeed, in addition to carrying flavour, PG is responsible for what we call throat hit - the kind of thump you get when you inhale vapour. PG is completely safe and the throat burn is normal - but it should generally not occur too much at 50/50 or lower PG ratios (65 PG 35 VG and up can be quite nasty on the throat). Higher nicotine levels can also cause throat irritation especially when combined with a high PG ratio.

But...some people are actually more sensitive to PG. Best way to find out is to share your juice with another vaper and get some feedback on whether they feel the same irritation (i.e. a juice issue) or not (i.e. personal sensitivity to PG)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Puff&Pass (21/3/15)

free3dom said:


> Indeed, in addition to carrying flavour, PG is responsible for what we call throat hit - the kind of thump you get when you inhale vapour. PG is completely safe and the throat burn is normal - but it should generally not occur too much at 50/50 or lower PG ratios (65 PG 35 VG and up can be quite nasty on the throat). Higher nicotine levels can also cause throat irritation especially when combined with a high PG ratio.
> 
> But...some people are actually more sensitive to PG. Best way to find out is to share your juice with another vaper and get some feedback on whether they feel the same irritation (i.e. a juice issue) or not (i.e. personal sensitivity to PG)


Will play around with the PG then, I like the VG but seems to be a bit hectic on coil clogging, thanx for the info, 50/50 would be my start base then.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Derick (21/3/15)

Puff&Pass said:


> Will play around with the PG then, I like the VG but seems to be a bit hectic on coil clogging, thanx for the info, 50/50 would be my start base then.


Yep, 50/50 is a good place to start, and if you go higher VG and get coil clogging issues you can add around 5% distilled water to thin it out

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Viper_SA (21/3/15)

For the physics challenged among us, are distilled water, deionized water and purified water the same thing?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Puff&Pass (21/3/15)

Viper_SA said:


> For the physics challenged among us, are distilled water, deionized water and purified water the same thing?


 Not really, depend on the processes uses, distilled water is basically, steam condensate, so likely not to contain anything besides water.So basially water in it's purist form. Don't attempt t drink distilled or demineralised water it'll saturate itself with your minerals. But for vaping shoul be fine, still recommend bying it instead of making it as you can not do analysis on it. Purified water has been cleaned, irons, toxins removed but still contain minerals. Drinkable but I won't vape it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Viper_SA (21/3/15)

I know demin water is bad for you, didn't realize it was the same thing as deionized water though. Think I'll stick to PG/VG mixes instead of water anyway.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Derick (21/3/15)

I'm always wary of 'purified' water, as it can basically mean anything. If I pour some tap water through a dishcloth then in effect that is also 'purified' water. Plus sometimes the filters in these purification systems are not cleaned often enough, and they are a perfect breeding ground for all kinds of bacteria, so after purifying your end result could have more impurities and the water you started with

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Puff&Pass (21/3/15)

Viper_SA said:


> I know demin water is bad for you, didn't realize it was the same thing as deionized water though. Think I'll stick to PG/VG mixes instead of water anyway.


 I might not be the same, but a similar concept, just ions removed.


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## rogue zombie (21/3/15)

Since this has become a bit of a Q&A, can I just ask anyone who may have used it:

The Skyblue TFA cheesecake - is it the filling creamy part and crust? Or do you still need to add something for crust, like Graham Cracker?


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## Derick (22/3/15)

r0gue z0mbie said:


> Since this has become a bit of a Q&A, can I just ask anyone who may have used it:
> 
> The Skyblue TFA cheesecake - is it the filling creamy part and crust? Or do you still need to add something for crust, like Graham Cracker?


For me all I get is the creamy part, but as has been said before, taste is subjective

Reactions: Like 1


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## Puff&Pass (24/3/15)

Derick said:


> I've been seeing an increase in the number of people wanting to try out DIY and I thought I would post a quick-start guide.
> 
> Note: This is my recommendation of how to get going, you can probably find plenty of other guides online or by talking to experienced DIY-ers.
> 
> ...


 I ordered yesterday, very excited to start, this is also my reduction from 12mg to 6mg...should be arriving today...wooHooO! Oh and great thread Derick.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## kbgvirus (5/5/15)

Hi guys, 

Picked up a DIY kit from Sky Blue yesterday gonna give this a bash, read through @Derick tutorial it was very informative and helpful

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## rogue zombie (5/5/15)

kbgvirus said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Picked up a DIY kit from Sky Blue yesterday gonna give this a bash, read through @Derick tutorial it was very informative and helpful



Cool... enjoy  

Have a look through the recipe threads. Its a helluva lot easier following one, until you get the hang of it.

http://ecigssa.co.za/some-recipes-from-around-the-web.t9584/
http://ecigssa.co.za/clone-recipes.t9698/
http://ecigssa.co.za/calling-all-diyers.t10799/page-3#post-218323

Or make a few single or duo/flavoured juices to start.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Derick (5/5/15)

kbgvirus said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Picked up a DIY kit from Sky Blue yesterday gonna give this a bash, read through @Derick tutorial it was very informative and helpful


Awesome - glad I converted another person to the DIY side  Hope you have loads of fun

Reactions: Like 2


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## Barak (5/5/15)

Oh yeah. Just arrived. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 6


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## UnholyMunk (5/5/15)

@Derick I like the new labels for the PG, VG and Nic! Nice and easy to see from a distance! That'll help me when I'm scrounging around at night making myself e liquids in a dimly lit load shed house

Reactions: Like 4


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## hands (5/5/15)

Barak said:


> Oh yeah. Just arrived.


have fun mixing it up

Reactions: Like 4


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## kbgvirus (5/5/15)

First Question  is Sky Blue and Valley Vapour the only local vendors that stock TFA concentrates amongst the other big name brands?


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## Melinda (5/5/15)

UnholyMunk said:


> @Derick I like the new labels for the PG, VG and Nic! Nice and easy to see from a distance! That'll help me when I'm scrounging around at night making myself e liquids in a dimly lit load shed house



@UnholyMunk thanks we had a DIYer dilute his Nicotine with his nicotine and got a nice 36mg vape going, so we decided to change the labels a bit to make it a bit more distinguishable

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Barak (5/5/15)

hands said:


> have fun mixing it up
> View attachment 26701


I will. I almost feel like that picture now. Mwha ha ha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kimbo (5/5/15)

Melinda said:


> @UnholyMunk thanks we had a DIYer dilute his Nicotine with his nicotine and got a nice 36mg vape going, so we decided to change the labels a bit to make it a bit more distinguishable


That can be a nice surprise


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## rogue zombie (5/5/15)

kbgvirus said:


> First Question  is Sky Blue and Valley Vapour the only local vendors that stock TFA concentrates amongst the other big name brands?



They are indeed.


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## UnholyMunk (5/5/15)

Melinda said:


> @UnholyMunk thanks we had a DIYer dilute his Nicotine with his nicotine and got a nice 36mg vape going, so we decided to change the labels a bit to make it a bit more distinguishable



Did they drip it?


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## Melinda (5/5/15)

UnholyMunk said:


> Did they drip it?



heh luckily no, it was in a tank....


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## Viper_SA (5/5/15)

I love how easily those labels peel off without leaving a sticky residue. So mayne uses for both the glass and plastic bottels once they are empty.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## UnholyMunk (5/5/15)

Melinda said:


> heh luckily no, it was in a tank....



Lucky man! Still... 36mg Juice... must have felt like his first cigarette all over again

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Derick (5/5/15)

UnholyMunk said:


> @Derick I like the new labels for the PG, VG and Nic! Nice and easy to see from a distance! That'll help me when I'm scrounging around at night making myself e liquids in a dimly lit load shed house


Yeah, did a bit of a redesign there as we had lots of queries where sometimes someone just missed the fine print - decided to make it nice and bold

Reactions: Like 4


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## AndreFerreira (5/5/15)

Derick said:


> Part 4.
> 
> Well mixing is pretty much out of the way, so onto another interesting subject regarding DIY and that is...
> 
> ...


When it is said that 8% flavour is a good starting point is that 8% per flavour or 8% total flavour even if there is 3 flavours?


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## free3dom (5/5/15)

AndreFerreira said:


> When it is said that 8% flavour is a good starting point is that 8% per flavour or 8% total flavour even if there is 3 flavours?



8% is generally for a single flavour, and when you start mixing more than one, you may want to slightly lower the percentage of each one, but not quite halve it. So for example if you want to equally combine two similar flavours that work well on their own at 8% you could try 6% and 6% (and adjust from there). Sometimes however, if a flavour works well at 8% and you just want to add something to the background, you can leave it at the 8% and just add 1-2% of the other flavour.

In the end, there are no rules here, just suggestions for a place to start. Some flavours even work well at 15% 

And there are juices with 20-30% total flavouring that are amazing - it all depends on which flavours and the ratios of each flavour 
That said, when starting out it's best to start low and work up, than the other way around - a muted juice is easier to vape than an overpowering one

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Thanks 1


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## UnholyMunk (5/5/15)

free3dom said:


> 8% is generally for a single flavour, and when you start mixing more than one, you may want to slightly lower the percentage of each one, but not quite halve it. So for example if you want to equally combine two similar flavours that work well on their own at 8% you could try 6% and 6% (and adjust from there). Sometimes however, if a flavour works well at 8% and you just want to add something to the background, you can leave it at the 8% and just add 1-2% of the other flavour.
> 
> In the end, there are no rules here, just suggestions for a place to start. Some flavours even work well at 15%
> 
> ...


BAM! Hit the nail on the head.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## Derick (5/5/15)

free3dom said:


> 8% is generally for a single flavour, and when you start mixing more than one, you may want to slightly lower the percentage of each one, but not quite halve it. So for example if you want to equally combine two similar flavours that work well on their own at 8% you could try 6% and 6% (and adjust from there). Sometimes however, if a flavour works well at 8% and you just want to add something to the background, you can leave it at the 8% and just add 1-2% of the other flavour.
> 
> In the end, there are no rules here, just suggestions for a place to start. Some flavours even work well at 15%
> 
> ...


@free3dom has it right and the whole DIY thing comes from experience. Generally when we get a new flavour we will mix it at 8%, just the single flavour and vape it for a day. This gives us an indication of what the flavour actually tastes like, how strong it is at 8%, does it have a strong throat hit? Is it a 'harsh' flavour, is it smooth, is it a lower or higher tone flavour, what does it remind me of.. etc. etc.

Using this info and having done the same with previous flavours, we start brainstorming what it would work with and and what percentage. With time and lots of testing you can guess pretty closely with which flavours will go together and which one will need to be low and which one will need to be high

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2 | Informative 1


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## Barak (5/5/15)

Ok so i read through all the posts by @Derick. thanks for the awesome guide. So from what i gather it is best to mix your nic in 50/50 as well? I dont have enough bottles at the moment to mix them all at 50/50, so then should i just wing the nic close to 50/50, lets say if the mix requires 2ml of nic, then to do 1+1 from both the pg and the vg. 

Then lets say i want more of a vg mix, can i then use a 50/50 base, but simple add pure vg nic to give it the extra push towards the vg side or should i up the base vg and keep the nic at 50/50 pg and vg? 

i hope this post makes sense.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Barak (5/5/15)

also, in the skyblue starter kit, what are the flavours? VG or PG?


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## gripen (5/5/15)

@Barak in the diy kit of skyblue the favors should be pg unless you chose the vg option.


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## Barak (5/5/15)

gripen said:


> @Barak in the diy kit of skyblue the favors should be pg unless you chose the vg option.


Cool thanks.


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## gripen (5/5/15)

pleasure bud.if you struggle please don't be afraid to ask.


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## Barak (5/5/15)

gripen said:


> pleasure bud.if you struggle please don't be afraid to ask.


Yeah im super excited to start experimenting tonight.


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## gripen (5/5/15)

@Barak its allot of fun,and you can come up with some intrasting flavours.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Derick (5/5/15)

Barak said:


> Ok so i read through all the posts by @Derick. thanks for the awesome guide. So from what i gather it is best to mix your nic in 50/50 as well? I dont have enough bottles at the moment to mix them all at 50/50, so then should i just wing the nic close to 50/50, lets say if the mix requires 2ml of nic, then to do 1+1 from both the pg and the vg.
> 
> Then lets say i want more of a vg mix, can i then use a 50/50 base, but simple add pure vg nic to give it the extra push towards the vg side or should i up the base vg and keep the nic at 50/50 pg and vg?
> 
> i hope this post makes sense.


Yep, this sounds right, but just be careful and not get yourself confused 

You can get some bottles from a plastic world/land near you - they might not be perfect, but they will do the job. Also Pyrex has brought out a 'kitchen lab' range with Erlenmeyer flasks (with rubber lids) and beakers in various sizes - we got some at Makro, but I suspect any large cooking type place will have some


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## Barak (5/5/15)

Derick said:


> Yep, this sounds right, but just be careful and not get yourself confused
> 
> You can get some bottles from a plastic world/land near you - they might not be perfect, but they will do the job. Also Pyrex has brought out a 'kitchen lab' range with Erlenmeyer flasks (with rubber lids) and beakers in various sizes - we got some at Makro, but I suspect any large cooking type place will have some


I assume plastic wont be an issue since most liquids come in plastic bottles


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## Derick (5/5/15)

Derick said:


> Yep, this sounds right, but just be careful and not get yourself confused
> 
> You can get some bottles from a plastic world/land near you - they might not be perfect, but they will do the job. Also Pyrex has brought out a 'kitchen lab' range with Erlenmeyer flasks (with rubber lids) and beakers in various sizes - we got some at Makro, but I suspect any large cooking type place will have some


This is what they look like

Reactions: Like 2


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## Derick (5/5/15)

Barak said:


> I assume plastic wont be an issue since most liquids come in plastic bottles


As long as it is PET or HDPE (most plastic bottles are) some other plastics can leach into your liquid

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Barak (5/5/15)

Derick said:


> This is what they look like


that looks pretty sweet.


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## Derick (5/5/15)

Barak said:


> that looks pretty sweet.


Yep they are, and we checked their measurements - compared them to the lab grade stuff we have here and they are spot on. Pyrex actually also makes stuff for labs, so no worries there.


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## Barak (5/5/15)

Great, i see they have them on takealot.


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## Derick (5/5/15)

Barak said:


> Great, i see they have them on takealot.


Awesome


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## Barak (5/5/15)

So i couldnt wait anymore. First little test batch. Strawberries and cream. 50/50 mix across the board with 8% flavour


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Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Barak (5/5/15)

haha. it tastes like ass. will let it stand for a while. time for the next mix

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Barak (5/5/15)

oh yeah i just saw i only put in half of the flavour i was supposed to. idiot

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Derick (5/5/15)

Barak said:


> haha. it tastes like ass. will let it stand for a while. time for the next mix


ha - well usually at 8% it tastes quite nice - sure you have your percentages right?

Also, let it sit for a day or two and try again


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## Neil (5/5/15)

Derick said:


> ha - well usually at 8% it tastes quite nice - sure you have your percentages right?
> 
> Also, let it sit for a day or two and try again


 Agree, you gotta let your mix sit for a couple of days to mature, you got to let the pg, vg, nicotine and flavoring mix together and mellow out.

I generally make a batch then store away for a 1 week and they taste good.

Reactions: Like 3


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## WHeunis (5/5/15)

Barak said:


> haha. it tastes like ass. will let it stand for a while. time for the next mix


Even at the extreme minimum that some flavours need to steep (ex: menthol) - you really do need a minimum 1 hour just to let it settle.

Sure, you CAN vape a menthol straight from the mix, but even just that first hour makes quite a difference in taste.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Derick (5/5/15)

WHeunis said:


> Even at the extreme minimum that some flavours need to steep (ex: menthol) - you really do need a minimum 1 hour just to let it settle.
> 
> Sure, you CAN vape a menthol straight from the mix, but even just that first hour makes quite a difference in taste.


Definitely and the better you mix it, the better it tastes 'fresh' as well

Reactions: Agree 1


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## free3dom (5/5/15)

Barak said:


> View attachment 26740
> 
> 
> So i couldnt wait anymore. First little test batch. Strawberries and cream. 50/50 mix across the board with 8% flavour





Barak said:


> haha. it tastes like ass. will let it stand for a while. time for the next mix



That's a perfect first mix, so long as you get the percentages right 

A little tip though....both strawberry and cream flavours get a lot better with some steeping - personally, whenever I use either of these in a juice I give it at least a week before I even try it...first time I used these I thought they were crappy, but after that initial steep they turn out really amazing 

Never give up on a juice when it tastes bad immediately after mixing, put it aside and come back to it - then after about a week or two you can write it off if it's still bad 

Oh, and congrats on taking the leap into DIY - it's a wonderful (and sometimes tasty) hobby

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## free3dom (5/5/15)

Oh and as @Derick said...the better you mix it the better it tastes right off the bat. 

Vigorous shaking (until your arms start to hurt) and putting the bottle it in some warm (not boiling) water (just makes sure it's sealed well) for a while (then shake some more), helps quite a bit to get it mixed up initially. 

Also, during steeping I tend to shake it up and breathe it (squeeze the air out of the bottle a few times) every now and then (every day or two).

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Barak (5/5/15)

Yeah i think i am going to mix in 10ml samples. 5ml is just too little to mix and shake really well. 


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Reactions: Agree 1


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## gripen (5/5/15)

i agree @Derick the longer it steeps the better it gets @Barak.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Barak (6/5/15)

made n toffee brownie mix last night. going to let it sit till friday before i taste it.

Reactions: Like 3


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## gripen (7/5/15)

@Barak that's owesome buddy,let us now how it turned out.


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## Barak (7/5/15)

gripen said:


> @Barak that's owesome buddy,let us now how it turned out.


Will do. I am letting it sit for now. 


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## gripen (7/5/15)

@Barak yea let it steap buddy will only get better.


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## Barak (7/5/15)

gripen said:


> @Barak yea let it steap buddy will only get better.


Luckily i stumbled upon two juices i really love yesterday, so now they can sit for a good while 


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Reactions: Like 1


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## kbgvirus (7/5/15)

Hi @Derick do you have a link to your updated PDF GUIDE?

Reactions: Like 1


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## gripen (7/5/15)

fantastic @Barak,keep it going buddy,and keep us all updated.


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## Derick (8/5/15)

kbgvirus said:


> Hi @Derick do you have a link to your updated PDF GUIDE?


I'm actually in the process of re-working it completely - still keeping virtually the same text, but adding a few pics etc. and in general just making it prettier 

Plan is to complete it this weekend, so I should have an updated one here by end of the weekend, latest Monday

For now here is the original one attached to this post

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## BioHAZarD (8/5/15)

Hi guys not too sure if this is the right thread 

So i decided to buy some clean cut from @Oupa , (for lazy mixing  ) also got some Orange,Cream & Dragon fruit flavours. Been sitting in the box for 2 weeks or so. Last night i decided that i might as well try something.

Took about 5 - 7 ml of clean cut and then added the dragon fruit. Somewhere between 12 and 15 drops. The flavour came through nicely but it was a bit much for me. Added about 10 - 12 drops of cream. What a difference. So not very scientific but a damn good vape. Will update at a later stage with exact values when i have payed around with a larger sample

Reactions: Like 2


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## Derick (8/5/15)

BioHAZarD said:


> Hi guys not too sure if this is the right thread
> 
> So i decided to buy some clean cut from @Oupa , (for lazy mixing  ) also got some Orange,Cream & Dragon fruit flavours. Been sitting in the box for 2 weeks or so. Last night i decided that i might as well try something.
> 
> Took about 5 - 7 ml of clean cut and then added the dragon fruit. Somewhere between 12 and 15 drops. The flavour came through nicely but it was a bit much for me. Added about 10 - 12 drops of cream. What a difference. So not very scientific but a damn good vape. Will update at a later stage with exact values when i have payed around with a larger sample


I started the thread and this is definitely the right place 

I also started with just adding a bit of this and a bit of that in a very unscientific way, sometimes straight to my tank that I'm vaping 
When you're starting out it is a great way just to get comfortable with the whole DIY idea and realize that it is not actually that difficult.

So congratulations on your first mix!

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## BioHAZarD (8/5/15)

Derick said:


> I started the thread and this is definitely the right place
> 
> I also started with just adding a bit of this and a bit of that in a very unscientific way, sometimes straight to my tank that I'm vaping
> When you're starting out it is a great way just to get comfortable with the whole DIY idea and realize that it is not actually that difficult.
> ...



Thanks @Derick 

I am sure i will be ordering some mixing kits from you in the near future

Reactions: Like 1


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## Va-poor (9/5/15)

I mixed up my first two liquids. I've only tasted the one so far. It tastes like almost nothing. I put 8% CAP blackberry and 8% TFA Bavarian cream into it. I added some ethyl maltol in the hopes improving it. 

Are these just weak flavours or should I be using more?


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## Derick (9/5/15)

Va-poor said:


> I mixed up my first two liquids. I've only tasted the one so far. It tastes like almost nothing. I put 8% CAP blackberry and 8% TFA Bavarian cream into it. I added some ethyl maltol in the hopes improving it.
> 
> Are these just weak flavours or should I be using more?


Hi there,

how much Ethyl Maltol (EM) did you use?

Em has a tendency to mute flavours - so you need to keep it below 4% - then even at 4% it will already start to bring the flavours down.

Also, Blackberry needs quite a bit of steeping before the flavour starts to shine

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Va-poor (9/5/15)

Derick said:


> Hi there,
> 
> how much Ethyl Maltol (EM) did you use?
> 
> ...



I added the EM straight to the tank. So the original mix is untouched. 

I was just surprised by the lack of flavour. All i could perceive was some smoothness which I assume is the Bavarian Cream.


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## Melinda (9/5/15)

@Va-poor what is your PG/VG ratio on this mix?


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## Va-poor (9/5/15)

Melinda said:


> @Va-poor what is your PG/VG ratio on this mix?



50/50 I did use 'Alpha' VG from the pharmacy if that makes a difference.

Edit: I only added the EM after trying it the first time on its own. I did try to heat steep it in hot water for an hour.


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## Derick (10/5/15)

Yeah the Alpha-Parm Glycerin BP is the right thing.

All I can think is that either it needs some steeping, or you need stronger flavours - that's the thing with flavour, it is very subjective, so everyone experiences it differently. I would up our blackberry to 12% - careful though, if you go too high it can start tasting very chemically/soapy/perfumey (people perceive the effect differently)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## dewald.kotze (18/5/15)

hi all. 

i have looked around and maybe i'm blind but haven't seen this asked. As a noob to DIY, i ordered some PG,VG and 36% nic VG juice from skyblue. Of course there were a few concentrates included as well. 

My question is, the VG nic juice is extremely thick and i cant really use the syringes to measure it out. Should i be pre mixing it with the no nic vg or is the a better/easier way to work with the nic juice. 

Hope this isn't the doffest question you've heard.


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## WHITELABEL (18/5/15)

dewald.kotze said:


> hi all.
> 
> i have looked around and maybe i'm blind but haven't seen this asked. As a noob to DIY, i ordered some PG,VG and 36% nic VG juice from skyblue. Of course there were a few concentrates included as well.
> 
> ...


Nah man good question. I use PG nic purely because it's easier to work with and because I mix at around 40pg 60vg for my target ratio. Lot's of people prefer high VG juices so pure VG nic becomes necessary. Depending on what you want your final ratio to be I would just cut it in half with PG. If you're using a calculator like ejuicemeup http://ejuice.breaktru.com/ or the one on the Skyblu website, you'll see there that it has a field for the strength of the nic (36mg which if you cut it in half with pg will be 18mg) and the pg/vg ratio. So if you dilute it with half pg, you will input a 50/50 pgvg ratio with 18mg strength. That will definitely make it easier to work with. Hope that helps!

Reactions: Thanks 1 | Informative 1


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## dewald.kotze (18/5/15)

Gambit said:


> Nah man good question. I use PG nic purely because it's easier to work with and because I mix at around 40pg 60vg for my target ratio. Lot's of people prefer high VG juices so pure VG nic becomes necessary. Depending on what you want your final ratio to be I would just cut it in half with PG. If you're using a calculator like ejuicemeup http://ejuice.breaktru.com/ or the one on the Skyblu website, you'll see there that it has a field for the strength of the nic (36mg which if you cut it in half with pg will be 18mg) and the pg/vg ratio. So if you dilute it with half pg, you will input a 50/50 pgvg ratio with 18mg strength. That will definitely make it easier to work with. Hope that helps!



Thanks Gambit. That does make sense. I was thinking of doing that, the bottles are just a bit full at the moment so will have to source some bottles to pre-mix the nic in.


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## Viv (20/6/15)

Derick said:


> The difference is purely the company that sells them
> 
> They are both American companies and the top two companies around the world when it comes to flavour for DIY. Although they do not provide flavours for just e-liquid, they do provide some of their flavours with e-liquid in mind as they are constantly improving based on feedback from the e-cig community.
> 
> ...


What are the 4 companies wirldwide? why only 4? is it because of the NIC?


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## Viv (20/6/15)

Derick said:


> I've been seeing an increase in the number of people wanting to try out DIY and I thought I would post a quick-start guide.
> 
> Note: This is my recommendation of how to get going, you can probably find plenty of other guides online or by talking to experienced DIY-ers.
> 
> ...


I'm wondering about making the extracts for adding to the e liquid, in terms of DIY, not the flavours part - the nicotine part? i imagine lisences for growing tabacco are involved... anyone know anything about this?


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## free3dom (20/6/15)

Viv said:


> What are the 4 companies wirldwide? why only 4? is it because of the NIC?



Not sure why only 4, but I suspect that it's due to the fact that creating artificial flavours is a very involved chemical process - and it requires a lot of money to do. The same thing goes for most advanced industries, only a handful make the low-level stuff and then other companies license this technology and puts it to use.

These flavouring companies do not distribute nicotine though - flavouring actually has nothing to do with the vaping industry, it's used for food, beverages, etc. The vaping industry just made use of this existing stuff for making e-liquids  

That said, some of the companies are starting to target the vaping industry directly now with their flavourings, but not openly due to the stigma attached to vaping.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Viper_SA (20/6/15)

Probably a bit like petrol. almost all petrol in South Africa is made by Natref, and then the rest of thecompanies just add their own additives etc.


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## ChadB (23/7/15)

Hi guys, 
I'm looking to buy some cheap 10ml>1l glass bottles (with droppers) and plastic bottles in Johannesburg (not too expensive).
If anyone can help me it would be greatly appreciated.


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## Derick (23/7/15)

Check out Bonpak in Edenvale - They are mainly a bulk sales company, but they are willing to sell small quantities (at a bit of an increase in price)

http://www.bonpak.co.za/

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## ChadB (23/7/15)

Great, thank you I appreciate it.
I will contact them tomorrow. I also found these, but i'm still looking


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## Eequinox (17/8/15)

hands said:


> sour additive and some sweetener and even a small amount of menthol goes nicely with fruits.


sour additive ?


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## Eequinox (17/8/15)

Wesley said:


> I can relate - I started off with Liqua juices and most of them were crap, but I could mix them together to create something vapable and this is where the DIY bug took hold of me.


same here i did exactly the same thing


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## hands (17/8/15)

Eequinox said:


> sour additive ?


http://valleyvapour.co.za/product/sour-flavour-concentrate/


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## Eequinox (17/8/15)

hands said:


> http://valleyvapour.co.za/product/sour-flavour-concentrate/


ah ok thanks


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## Eequinox (17/8/15)

free3dom said:


> Dear diary...I mean dear vapers
> 
> I mixed up two more batches today: one with max PG, and one with max VG. Both were done with the same ratio of pineapple flavour (~8%) and nic level (12mg) so that I could test how the different fluids perform in relation to one another.
> 
> ...


wow fantastic post i was thinking of trying this today to see what the actual differences would be


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## Clouds4Days (30/1/16)

@Derick 
This thread has really been helpful in my new venture into diy.
Picked up my first supplys yesterday and got right into it. Great fun I must say.

Obviously it's all a learning curve for now but brewed up some simple flavours that look like the are promising and some not so promising at all. Hahaha

I did vape my mixes just to see initial taste so now I will let them steep. 

Made a simple mango cream with
7% mango
3.5% cream
Tastes decent.

Also made a banana desert
Banana cream 6.5%
Caramel 2.5%
Coffee expresso 1%

These are the 2 that seem promising 

Thanks for all the advice on the thread.
Now I'm gonna take some recipes down for ingredients on my next shopping day ☺


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## Schnappie (2/2/16)

Just attempted my own suckerpunch clone...with an online recipe.
Being the impatient person that I didnt have any measuring equipment yet so I just roughly estimated the values and mixed up some dragonfruit with a bit of bavarian cream and a bit of vanilla swirl with about 75:25 vgpg and gave it two warm water baths from yesterday. It is still gonna steep for a week but i tried a halftank now and it tastes awesome! Suppose dragonfruit is a very forgiving flavour though

Reactions: Like 3


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## Naas (10/2/16)

Not sure if this is the correct thread.

Does anybody have experience with Creative Flavors International Flavors ?
and How do they work for E-liquid ?


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## Wesley (10/2/16)

Clouds4Days said:


> @Derick
> This thread has really been helpful in my new venture into diy.
> Picked up my first supplys yesterday and got right into it. Great fun I must say.
> 
> ...


Banana works surprisingly well with coffee. Is that FA Coffee Espresso? I've found it is incredibly strong, I use it at 0.5 or even 0.25% in Mixes and it still comes through nicely.

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## Clouds4Days (11/2/16)

Hi @Wesley 
I have no idea which coffee expresso I use. I got it from vapeowave.
I'm still new to diy but I've seen certain bottles say Dx on them etc... what do these letters mean ?


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## shaunnadan (11/2/16)

Clouds4Days said:


> Hi @Wesley
> I have no idea which coffee expresso I use. I got it from vapeowave.
> I'm still new to diy but I've seen certain bottles say Dx on them etc... what do these letters mean ?



This is the new DX version, which is diketone (acetoin, diacetyl and acetyl propionyl) free.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## method1 (11/2/16)

DX also usually means "don't xpect" it to be as tasty as the diketone versions 
That said they usually just seem to require a longer steep IME.


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## shaunnadan (11/2/16)

method1 said:


> DX also usually means "don't xpect" it to be as tasty as the diketone versions
> That said they usually just seem to require a longer steep IME.




often when purchasing i will look for the "other" versions

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## kyle_redbull (17/3/16)

Is there a link to a calculator to work out exactly what percentage to use of flavour etc. Can you make your mixes have too much flavour? How do I know that the amount of VG PG and flavour is correct to give me the best flavour I would probably go 50/50 or 60pg and 40vg as I am more after flavour. How do u ensure u add enough nice should I want a 3ml or 6ml nice content. 

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## Anwar (17/3/16)

Google ejuice me up and download 

Its all youll ever need when mixing 

I would recommend you watch some youtube videos on diying eliquid, it really helped me learn alot even before i started mixing 

Send me a message if you need any other assitance, i have been mixing for a while now and even have my own eliquid business 

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## kyle_redbull (18/3/16)

@Anwar thanks bud we will definitely chat 

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## Nightwalker (18/3/16)

kyle_redbull said:


> Is there a link to a calculator to work out exactly what percentage to use of flavour etc. Can you make your mixes have too much flavour? How do I know that the amount of VG PG and flavour is correct to give me the best flavour I would probably go 50/50 or 60pg and 40vg as I am more after flavour. How do u ensure u add enough nice should I want a 3ml or 6ml nice content.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


http://e-liquid-recipes.com
Just click on user, register. And make ur juices bud. Have fun.

Reactions: Like 1


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## kyle_redbull (19/3/16)

Is there a rule of thumb on how much flavour should be added to your VG PG to ensure its not over powering or tastes kak 

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## Silver (19/3/16)

kyle_redbull said:


> Is there a rule of thumb on how much flavour should be added to your VG PG to ensure its not over powering or tastes kak
> 
> Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk



I am no DIY expert @kyle_redbull but I think it depends quite a lot on the flavour concentrates you use
I also believe that putting too many flavours in can mess it up - like mixing too many colours of paint you get an ugly brown - 

But lets wait for the DIY experts.... They are probably all busy mixing because its long weekend

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## kyle_redbull (19/3/16)

Thanks silver 

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## kyle_redbull (22/3/16)

Quick question when diying with a single liquid how do u mix all together do u add the PG first then flavour then VG then shake or just mix all together 

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## Kalashnikov (22/3/16)

kyle_redbull said:


> Quick question when diying with a single liquid how do u mix all together do u add the PG first then flavour then VG then shake or just mix all together
> 
> Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


I like to mix my flavour with the pg and nic first. I let that steep for 2 days. Then i add the vg and let that steep for about another 3.

PG carries the flavour well thats why i let it steep in the pg before adding the vg

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## kyle_redbull (22/3/16)

Thanks bud

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## kyle_redbull (27/3/16)

Hi all, on 10ml diy mix single flavour what is the % flavour one should be using I don't want to over power things as well as waste and I'm looking for more flavour and throat hit so will mix at 50/50 or 60pg and 40vg? 

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## Yiannaki (27/3/16)

kyle_redbull said:


> Hi all, on 10ml diy mix single flavour what is the % flavour one should be using I don't want to over power things as well as waste and I'm looking for more flavour and throat hit so will mix at 50/50 or 60pg and 40vg?
> 
> Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk



The single flavour percentage used is all dependant on the flavour and brand you're mixing with.

For example: you could mix TFA Strawberry ripe on its own around 10%

But something like FA Tiramisu would be mixed around 3% or so for a solo mix.

Your best bet is to perhaps mention the flavours you want to try mixing and get members to advise you on percentages. Or alternatively you could have a look on reddit. They have a very extensive diy e liquid section. 

The PG/VG ratio is also dependant on what equipment you're using and what sort of power you're Vaping at. I think 40PG/60VG is a good starting point.

Reactions: Like 1


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## kyle_redbull (27/3/16)

The flavours I have are all Flavour West they are lemon meringue pie, beetle juice and candy watermelon. I want more flavour than clouds so why would my VG be higher than my PG? I have a istick 60w tc and vape at around 22w on 0.3 kanthal coils 

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## kyle_redbull (27/3/16)

Yiannaki said:


> The single flavour percentage used is all dependant on the flavour and brand you're mixing with.
> 
> For example: you could mix TFA Strawberry ripe on its own around 10%
> 
> ...


The flavours I have are all Flavour West they are lemon meringue pie, beetle juice and candy watermelon. I want more flavour than clouds so why would my VG be higher than my PG? I have a istick 60w tc and vape at around 22w on 0.3 kanthal coils <br /><br />Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

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## Yiannaki (27/3/16)

kyle_redbull said:


> The flavours I have are all Flavour West they are lemon meringue pie, beetle juice and candy watermelon. I want more flavour than clouds so why would my VG be higher than my PG? I have a istick 60w tc and vape at around 22w on 0.3 kanthal coils <br /><br />Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk
> 
> Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


Unfortunately have not tried any of those flavours so I can't comment. Maybe start around 8% and see how it goes from there.

I think the PG/VG ratio is something of personal preference. You'll definitely get more throat hit. I'm not sold on the concept of 50/50 juices being more "flavourful". But in a diy mix, a 50/50 blend might need a bit less concentrate than a higher VG blend to get the same flavour. Go for 50/50 if that's what you want bud.

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## kyle_redbull (27/3/16)

So made my first mix my problem the consistency seems to be a little watery I mixed 50/50 made 10mls not getting the throat hit I am looking for coz there is 0 nic versus the ncv strawb I was vaping g recently. What can I do to get more throat hit? It seems with the 50/50 mix my istick 60w is running much hotter than what it did with the ncv strawb which was 30pg/70vg with 3mg nic why would it do this and I'm vaping on same wattage 22w have 0.3 kanthal coil in

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## Lingogrey (27/3/16)

Hi @kyle_redbull 

Being now used to 70 VG / 30 PG juice, 50 / 50 appears very watery and thin to me too. Excuse the obvious question, but is your juice 50 PG including the concentrate (as the vast majority of concentrates are PG based)? If not, you would be closer to around 60 PG / 40 VG - which would be of a very thin consistency.

As far as the throat hit is concerned - although more PG definitely does add to a more pronounced throat hit, I find that (especially) the nicotine level, but also the specific flavor concentrates used, play a far bigger role in determining throat hit. Even the difference between 0 and 3 % is quite pronounced and it might also be that some of the concentrates in Strawb increases the throat hit as compared to your mix (I am assuming that you used one of the 3 FW concentrates listed above? I haven't used any of those FW concentrates, but they do not sound like flavors that would have a particularly strong throat hit - with the possible exception of the Lemon Meringue)

As far as your mod running hotter than normal with a 50 / 50 juice - I am stumped. I would think that because the thinner juice would most probably wick easier / faster, that in theory your mod should actually be working less hard. The only possibility that I can think of is that when you start going over 50 PG, many modern sub-ohm tanks / RBA's would probably start gurgling, as they aren't really designed for high PG juice - In that case it might perhaps make sense.

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## kyle_redbull (27/3/16)

I am just scared to start using nic myself just now my mix isn't right and I poison myself the 3mg in strawb at times was too strong and I would start coughing. Just want more throat hit. What single flavours can provide me with this? My mod does gargle alot more now should I change my mix to a higher VG than PG mix with maybe a bit more flavour to give me the throat hit or should I get nic? 

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## kyle_redbull (27/3/16)

Or should I buy 1.5 ohm coils eish need help 

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## Lingogrey (27/3/16)

kyle_redbull said:


> I am just scared to start using nic myself just now my mix isn't right and I poison myself the 3mg in strawb at times was too strong and I would start coughing. Just want more throat hit. What single flavours can provide me with this? My mod does gargle alot more now should I change my mix to a higher VG than PG mix with maybe a bit more flavour to give me the throat hit or should I get nic?
> 
> Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


Perhaps with your next mix it might be a good idea to change your ratio to 60 VG / 40 PG. If you usually vape 3 mg nic, it might be a good idea to add this to your mix as well. It's really not that 'dangerous' if you just use a bit of caution and common sense. Make sure that you get good quality 36 mg (the standard concentration that nic is sold at most DIY retailers in SA) nicotine from Skyblue, Valley Vapour or Vapour Mountain and you can then work out how much of it you need to add to the mix in order to reach 3 mg. You can do this with an e-juice calculator like eJuice Me Up (http://ejuice.breaktru.com/) or with simple maths (36 mg nic should be a 12th of your total mix in order to reach 3 mg - thus 2.5 ml per 30 ml or 0.8 ml per 10 ml). If you use eJuice Me Up to calculate, the nic default is 100 mg 50 VG / 50 PG and desired strength default is 12 mg. Remember to change that to 36 mg nic, 100 % PG or VG - whichever you're using (unless you are mixing by weight, it's a lot easier IMO to be precise with 100 % PG nic and it preserves slightly better) and 3 mg desired strength. Be careful not to spill any of the nic on your skin whilst working with it, but it's not a train smash if it does happen accidentally - just wash it off immediately and if you've spilled some on your clothes, change and wash the clothes before wearing again (some of the members on here started with 36 mg juices, so at that concentration it's not particularly dangerous - 100 mg nic should be treated with far more caution though).

As far as flavorings with throat hit is concerned, TFA Pineapple has a wicked throat hit and works relatively well as a single flavor IF that's your kind of flavor profile (should be used in very low percentages, as in 1 - 2 % Maybe 3 % max). TFA Black Cherry also has a decent throat hit (around 6 - 8 % single flavor) and TFA Pear has a relatively noticeable throat hit (around 7 - 9 % single flavor). For sweeter dessert flavors, TFA Dulce de Leche has a decent throat hit (at around 7.5 - 8.5 % single flavor) I can't think of other TFA / Cap / FW flavors right now that has both a prominent throat hit and that would work as a single flavor. A number of tobacco concentrates have got strong throat hits, but few that are readily available would work well as single flavours (and most should be steeped for quite a long time as well).

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## Lingogrey (27/3/16)

kyle_redbull said:


> I am just scared to start using nic myself just now my mix isn't right and I poison myself the 3mg in strawb at times was too strong and I would start coughing. Just want more throat hit. What single flavours can provide me with this? My mod does gargle alot more now should I change my mix to a higher VG than PG mix with maybe a bit more flavour to give me the throat hit or should I get nic?
> 
> Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


On the point of the 3 mg nic being too strong at times, you could also easily mix a juice at 1.5 mg nic (1.25 ml per 30 ml or 0.4 per 10 ml)

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## kyle_redbull (27/3/16)

On my Fw bottles it doesn't show what percentage PG it is

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## kyle_redbull (27/3/16)

This was my recipe and came out quite watery 

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## Lingogrey (27/3/16)

kyle_redbull said:


> On my Fw bottles it doesn't show what percentage PG it is
> 
> Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


The overwhelming majority of flavor concentrates used in mixing are 100 % pg (technically it's probably something more like 98.87 % pg - with the flavour compounds added, but you would calculate it as part of your pg ratio). The small number of exceptions to this, such as TFA Strawberry Organic which is VG based, are clearly indicated as VG based (as it is a bit of an "anomally". If not stated, it's simply assumed that one knows that it is PG based).

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## Lingogrey (27/3/16)

kyle_redbull said:


> This was my recipe and came out quite watery
> 
> Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


I see that you did 'count' the concentrate as PG, so it was a 50 / 50 blend. I would speculate that it appeared overly thin and watery because we are now mostly used to higher VG juices. I think that the only way to check if the consistency that you reached falls within the limit of a 50 / 50 juice would be to compare it with other 50 / 50 juices (such as the older stock of Vape Elixir or most of the Skyblue juices).


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## kyle_redbull (27/3/16)

Where can I get the sky blue 50/50 juices from or vape elixir. I am an ex smoker so looking for the throat hit. Maybe I should go get some nic and that will sort it out. I have steeped any of the flavours yet just wanted to test the waters

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## Lingogrey (27/3/16)

kyle_redbull said:


> Where can I get the sky blue 50/50 juices from or vape elixir. I am an ex smoker so looking for the throat hit. Maybe I should go get some nic and that will sort it out. I have steeped any of the flavours yet just wanted to test the waters
> 
> Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


Skyblue (the Bloodmoon Brew and Melonz are 70 / 30. The rest is 50 / 50 as far as I know):
http://www.skybluevaping.co.za/e-liquids/Skyblue-30ml-liquids
https://www.jjemporium.co.za/collections/vaping-fuel?page=2
https://www.jjemporium.co.za/collections/vaping-fuel?page=3
http://www.lungcandy.co.za/shop/elixirs/skyblue/

Vape Elixir (they have recently changed their ratios to 70 / 30. However, I think that it's quite likely that some 'older' stock of 50 / 50 might still be available - especially at eCiggies - they only stock 12 mg and 0 mg though):
http://www.vapeking.co.za/e-liquids/south-african-e-liquids/vape-elixir-supreme-e-liquid.html
http://eciggies.co.za/e-Liquidz/VAPE-ELIXIR-30ml-0mg-12mg


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## Lingogrey (27/3/16)

As far as I know, Vapour Mountain's juices are also usually higher in PG, even though the option is offered to specify the desired VG / PG ratio


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## morras (22/4/16)

Howzit all

I just recieved my DIY stuff from Skyblue - cant wait to enter the next chapter of my vaping.

These are the concentrates i have - please look at them and give me some recipes.....

Will start with 10 ml batches.

Thanks for the help 

Peanut butter
Hazelnut Praline
Milk / Dairy
Ripe Banana
Vanilla Custard
Menthol
Vanilla Bean Ice Cream
RY4 Double
Toasted Marsh-mellow
Meringue
Caramel
Cheese Cake
Greek Yogurt
Sweet Cream
Smooth
Koolada
Pear
Whipped Cream
Strawberry Ripe
Bavarian Cream
Milk Chocolate
Graham Cracker clear
Dulce De Leche
DX vanilla Cup Cake
Coconut Flavor
Sour Flavor


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## Shooterbuddy (2/6/16)

Hi All

Firstly Thank you so much to the contributors of this forum. All the reading from these forums really made my first attempt so much easier and less daunting

So I made my first juices last night Did 2. 
20ml
Nicotine 3mg
Strawberry ripe 12%(tfa)
Bavarian Cream 5%(tfa)
Koolada 2%(tfa)
Warm bath and lots of shaking and off the bat a very nice vape. I think I could've added more strawberry but maybe with a bit of steep it will improve(It won't last that long though) Think I'll make another batch of this tonight as I'm really enjoying it.

Also did:
20ml 80%vg
3mg Nicotine
Cookies and cream(FW) 12%
Bavarian cream(tfa) 2%
Warm bath lots of shaking.
I have not tried this one yet.

Any other recipes I can try? I have the following for now:
Bavarian cream 75%vg
Strawberry ripe
Dragon fruit
Marschmallow
Cookies and cream(fw)
Koolada

Very exciting stuff this DIY

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## Andre (2/6/16)

Shooterbuddy said:


> Hi All
> 
> Firstly Thank you so much to the contributors of this forum. All the reading from these forums really made my first attempt so much easier and less daunting
> 
> ...


Most welcome to the forum. DIY is fun for sure. I have also just started on this journey, but am far down the rabbit hole.

Many recipes and discussions in this thread: http://www.ecigssa.co.za/calling-all-diyers.t10799/

From what I see in your recipes, Mustard Milk (strawberry and cream) is a must for you. It is in the thread above or you can find the original here.

Also visit www.e-liquid-recipes.com

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## Shooterbuddy (2/6/16)

Andre said:


> Most welcome to the forum. DIY is fun for sure. I have also just started on this journey, but am far down the rabbit hole.
> 
> Many recipes and discussions in this thread: http://www.ecigssa.co.za/calling-all-diyers.t10799/
> 
> ...



Thank you Andre will check those out...


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## Labvapes (10/3/17)

Planning on getting in a big haul of DIY flavors from Vape Hyper...I was gonna start with the TFA flavors but can y'all recommend any of the DIY brands to start with, is TFA any good. I wanna mix up some desert flavors but with a refreshing twist. Oh, Diacetyl free if possible. By the way, I don't know where I should be asking is on the site...I'm still trying to figure out where everything is.


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## RichJB (10/3/17)

@Labvapes, I wouldn't go for any particular brand, they all have hits and misses. Probably the best idea is to head to alltheflavors.com, find some simple recipes that you like there, make note of which concentrates they use, and then order those. Start by defining what profiles you like. If you say desserts then flavours like TFA Cheesecake Graham Crust, Cap NY Cheesecake, Cap Sugar Cookie, FA Meringue, TFA or Cap Vanilla Bean Ice Cream, TFA Vanilla Swirl, FA Fuji, Cap Vanilla Custard, TFA Strawberry Ripe are all popular flavours. Enter those flavours into the flavour search at ATF and it will give you recipes that use them. From there, narrow down and decide what you want to mix.

If you want diacetyl free, use the v2 flavours of Cap or the DX flavours of TFA. FA flavours are generally diacetyl free. FW... well, let's not go there.

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## Rude Rudi (10/3/17)

RichJB said:


> @Labvapes, I wouldn't go for any particular brand, they all have hits and misses. Probably the best idea is to head to alltheflavors.com, find some simple recipes that you like there, make note of which concentrates they use, and then order those. Start by defining what profiles you like. If you say desserts then flavours like TFA Cheesecake Graham Crust, Cap NY Cheesecake, Cap Sugar Cookie, FA Meringue, TFA or Cap Vanilla Bean Ice Cream, TFA Vanilla Swirl, FA Fuji, Cap Vanilla Custard, TFA Strawberry Ripe are all popular flavours. Enter those flavours into the flavour search at ATF and it will give you recipes that use them. From there, narrow down and decide what you want to mix.
> 
> If you want diacetyl free, use the v2 flavours of Cap or the DX flavours of TFA. FA flavours are generally diacetyl free. FW... well, let's not go there.



Nicely put...


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## kev mac (11/3/17)

Labvapes said:


> Planning on getting in a big haul of DIY flavors from Vape Hyper...I was gonna start with the TFA flavors but can y'all recommend any of the DIY brands to start with, is TFA any good. I wanna mix up some desert flavors but with a refreshing twist. Oh, Diacetyl free if possible. By the way, I don't know where I should be asking is on the site...I'm still trying to figure out where everything is.


I stand by TFA it is a quality product.If you haven't already do yourself a favor and subscribe to DIYorDie on YouTube he has videos on every aspect of mixing.

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## RichJB (11/3/17)

Just my opinion but if I was starting DIY and I wanted to do my first order from Vape Hyper's range, and desserts was my focus, I would buy:
TFA:
Banana Cream
Banana Nut Bread
Blueberry Extra
Cheesecake Graham Crust
Cotton Candy
Dragonfruit
DX Bavarian Cream
Strawberry
Strawberry Ripe
Toasted Marshmallow
Vanilla Bean Ice Cream
Vanilla Swirl

Capella
Golden Pineapple
New York Cheesecake v1
Sugar Cookie v2
Super Sweet
Sweet Cream
Sweet Strawberry
Vanilla Custard v2
Vanilla Whipped Cream

Flavour Art
Caramel
Coconut
Cream Fresh
Fuji Apple
Lemon Sicily
Marshmallow
Meringue
Pear
Vienna Cream
White Peach
Watermelon

Inawera
Biscuit
Cactus
Creme Brulee
Milk Chocolate
Raspberry
Shisha Strawberry
Shisha Vanilla

Flavor West
Butterscotch Ripple
Butter Pecan
Hazelnut

Those are the pick of their flavours imo, and flavours that you will use over and over in many recipes. The must-haves are in red. There is some diacetyl in there but not bad levels. If you don't like any of the fruits, drop them. But try to keep the creams, custards, bakeries and base additives like Marshmallow, Meringue, Hazelnut, etc. They are super useful. It's a lot of flavours but you will be able to make a bunch of juices with those.

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## Labvapes (12/3/17)

RichJB said:


> @Labvapes, I wouldn't go for any particular brand, they all have hits and misses. Probably the best idea is to head to alltheflavors.com, find some simple recipes that you like there, make note of which concentrates they use, and then order those. Start by defining what profiles you like. If you say desserts then flavours like TFA Cheesecake Graham Crust, Cap NY Cheesecake, Cap Sugar Cookie, FA Meringue, TFA or Cap Vanilla Bean Ice Cream, TFA Vanilla Swirl, FA Fuji, Cap Vanilla Custard, TFA Strawberry Ripe are all popular flavours. Enter those flavours into the flavour search at ATF and it will give you recipes that use them. From there, narrow down and decide what you want to mix.
> 
> If you want diacetyl free, use the v2 flavours of Cap or the DX flavours of TFA. FA flavours are generally diacetyl free. FW... well, let's not go there.


Great advice...


RichJB said:


> @Labvapes, I wouldn't go for any particular brand, they all have hits and misses. Probably the best idea is to head to alltheflavors.com, find some simple recipes that you like there, make note of which concentrates they use, and then order those. Start by defining what profiles you like. If you say desserts then flavours like TFA Cheesecake Graham Crust, Cap NY Cheesecake, Cap Sugar Cookie, FA Meringue, TFA or Cap Vanilla Bean Ice Cream, TFA Vanilla Swirl, FA Fuji, Cap Vanilla Custard, TFA Strawberry Ripe are all popular flavours. Enter those flavours into the flavour search at ATF and it will give you recipes that use them. From there, narrow down and decide what you want to mix.
> 
> If you want diacetyl free, use the v2 flavours of Cap or the DX flavours of TFA. FA flavours are generally diacetyl free. FW... well, let's not go there.


Thanks so much for the awesome advice, I will be sure to check out alltheflavors...


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## Labvapes (12/3/17)

RichJB said:


> Just my opinion but if I was starting DIY and I wanted to do my first order from Vape Hyper's range, and desserts was my focus, I would buy:
> TFA:
> Banana Cream
> Banana Nut Bread
> ...


Awesome...ya, super helpful, I will def be taking some of those desert numbers. Yumbles.


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## Jp1905 (14/4/17)

Hi all,

Okay so Im a noob when it comes to DIY,as in no idea of the whos who and whats what of concentrates,been trying out and so far everything I tried that was not a given recipe,was a flop...my one mix smells like bread dough

So looking at the waaaaaaaay more experienced gents in the diy...

I was thinking to try a Rice Crispies thing...

What I had in mind was:
TFA Rice Crunchies
TFA Sweet Cream
DX Milk

And what percentages would you recommend?

Am I way off track and probably on the road to mixing Camel poop again?Will it work?

Thanx in advance!!!


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## acorn (14/4/17)

Have'nt tried TFA Rice crunchies yet: here is two recipes that looks decent and might give an indication on flavour percentages: 

http://e-liquid-recipes.com/recipe/636199/Ethos Crispy Treats Clone

http://e-liquid-recipes.com/recipe/682957/Crispy Treats by Ethos Vapors

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