# Nic salts - yay or nay?



## Silver

With the increasing prevalence of nic salt based juices , this is a topic that's worth further discussion.

I found an article (quite old, but still worth a read) which explains more about nic salts.
http://vaping411.com/nicotine-salts/

From what I can gather, nic salts are a modified version of "normal nicotine" which allows for faster absorption of the nicotine but with lower throat hit. The two appear to go hand in hand because the smoother vaping sensation allows for higher levels of nic to be vaped. Which in turn allows for a more potent nicotine loading - so it gets closer to what combustible cigarettes can do.

This seems to be the ideal solution for low powered pod type and pen style vape devices. And these can help new vapers curb the nic cravings and stay off the stinkies.

There are a couple of issues though:

1. Is it suitable for vaping in high powered "enthusiast" mods at high nic levels?

2. Isn't there a risk with this that you could actually get more dependent on the nicotine (instead of less dependent)? Presumably one of the goals of many vapers is to reduce the nic level and dependency on nicotine over time.

3. How safe are nic salts compared to "normal nicotine"?

I may not be understanding this fully and I will admit that I haven't used nic salts much. I have only vaped on them a few times - and I get virtually zero immediate throat hit - so I didn't enjoy it. I know some folk say they get a strange taste with nic salts.

*Have put up a poll too. Please vote and lets discuss this below.

What are your experiences?*

Reactions: Like 2


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## incredible_hullk

My experience with nic salts has been constant coughing even at the 20-25 mg range which is the lowest I believe

Too much for me with a very tight chest feeling 

Taste - I get a prominent chemical, acidic taste which put me off

Reactions: Like 4 | Can relate 1 | Informative 1


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## Raindance

@Silver your second point regarding it sustaining nic dependancy is why i rather steer clear. I would not want to go back to “needing a fix now or else...” after struggling so hard to shake that need. Managed to book out of Hotel California and do not want to become a resident again.

Regards

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## Rob Fisher

I joke and say that Nic Salts is the "Devils work"! But seriously I think they are bad news and just another way of addicting people to Nicotine. I concede that there is a place for Nic Salts, especially when converting a smoker but I think high nic normal juice is a better option and worked for most of us.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 7 | Informative 2


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## Carnival

I believe they have their place, even though I definitely think there’s a risk of becoming more dependent on nicotine when using nic salts. For me at the moment, I take a few puffs here and there in between vaping free base and it helps curb the cravings for a stinkie. I’m giving myself a week from today, using nic salts, and after that I want to stick to free base. I’d rather not use nic salts long term.

Reactions: Like 4


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## RichJB

For me, it depends on whether you want to quit or switch. If you want to quit nicotine addiction, nic salts would be a terrible way to go about it. If you are content to remain addicted to nic but just want to reduce the harms from combustible tobacco, nic salts are fine. I'm trying to quit addiction so I'll never use nic salts or own a pod. Undoing the progress I've made over the past three years would just be crazy.

That said, I'm not complacent enough to assume that it will stop at nic salts. The industry has financial incentive to make its products as addictive as possible. With salts, they were at least open and honest about the high nic levels so I knew to avoid it. The problem is going to arise when they start slipping 'additives' into nic without telling anyone. And it's going to happen, you can bet your house on it. JUUL went from a start-up to a $10bn company in a matter of a few years, based primarily on cramming as much nic as they possibly could into every puff. Others will want to emulate that success and up the ante further. Doing it without the user even realising how much nic they're inhaling would be a sly way to go about it. So I'm very wary indeed, and keeping an eye on all juice testing studies for signs of new chemicals that weren't in vapour before.

Reactions: Like 6 | Informative 2


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## Silver

incredible_hullk said:


> My experience with nic salts has been constant coughing even at the 20-25 mg range which is the lowest I believe
> 
> Too much for me with a very tight chest feeling
> 
> Taste - I get a prominent chemical, acidic taste which put me off



That's interesting @incredible_hullk 
Ive heard comments before about the strange taste - but not about the coughing. 
I suppose each person experiences them differently

Reactions: Like 2


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## Silver

Raindance said:


> @Silver your second point regarding it sustaining nic dependancy is why i rather steer clear. I would not want to go back to “needing a fix now or else...” after struggling so hard to shake that need. Managed to book out of Hotel California and do not want to become a resident again.
> 
> Regards



I hear you @Raindance
And thats an important thing for me too.
Although I vape fairly high nic , its because I crave that instant throat hit when taking a puff. Its not really the cumulative nic loading that I need, but more the instant roughness on the throat.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Viper_SA

I tried it, but didn't like the "buzz" it gave me. Freebase all the way.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Silver

Rob Fisher said:


> I joke and say that Nic Salts is the "Devils work"! But seriously I think they are bad news and just another way of addicting people to Nicotine. I concede that there is a place for Nic Salts, especially when converting a smoker but I think high nic normal juice is a better option and worked for most of us.



The thing is @Rob Fisher , back in Oct 2013 when I used the Twisp Clearo to get off stinkies - I had 4 of them and used to puff them like crazy till they were so hot. I think I burnt out one or two batteries because of my puffing. I was determined to quit the stinkies - but the nic I got from the old devices was admittedly quite low. So it made it quite difficult. I can understand how higher nic salts in more modern equipment can make a big difference. Especially in small portable devices with low power. 

Agreed though on the bigger rigs and higher power devices - doesn't seem like there is a need for nic salts to get newer vapers off stinkies - normal nicotine can work fine in those devices

Reactions: Like 2


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## Silver

Carnival said:


> I believe they have their place, even though I definitely think there’s a risk of becoming more dependent on nicotine when using nic salts. For me at the moment, I take a few puffs here and there in between vaping free base and it helps curb the cravings for a stinkie. I’m giving myself a week from today, using nic salts, and after that I want to stick to free base. I’d rather not use nic salts long term.



Let us know how it goes @Carnival 
I suppose even if it takes you a bit longer to wean yourself off the odd nic salt puff here and there - you are still doing a great thing avoiding the combustion. Am keen to hear though how it feels when you stop or reduce the nic salts. I.e. if the cravings come back...


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## Silver

Amy said:


> My experience with Nic salts is nose bleeds and constant coughing. I had a bad experience with it.



I didnt like your post because of what you said - but that you have added your experiences @Amy 
I assume that your system just doesn't agree with the nic salts. 
Its good for other vapers to know they should always approach these things with a bit of caution.


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## Carnival

Silver said:


> Let us know how it goes @Carnival
> I suppose even if it takes you a bit longer to wean yourself off the odd nic salt puff here and there - you are still doing a great thing avoiding the combustion. Am keen to hear though how it feels when you stop or reduce the nic salts. I.e. if the cravings come back...



I will keep you guys updated.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Silver

RichJB said:


> For me, it depends on whether you want to quit or switch. If you want to quit nicotine addiction, nic salts would be a terrible way to go about it. If you are content to remain addicted to nic but just want to reduce the harms from combustible tobacco, nic salts are fine. I'm trying to quit addiction so I'll never use nic salts or own a pod. Undoing the progress I've made over the past three years would just be crazy.
> 
> That said, I'm not complacent enough to assume that it will stop at nic salts. The industry has financial incentive to make its products as addictive as possible. With salts, they were at least open and honest about the high nic levels so I knew to avoid it. The problem is going to arise when they start slipping 'additives' into nic without telling anyone. And it's going to happen, you can bet your house on it. JUUL went from a start-up to a $10bn company in a matter of a few years, based primarily on cramming as much nic as they possibly could into every puff. Others will want to emulate that success and up the ante further. Doing it without the user even realising how much nic they're inhaling would be a sly way to go about it. So I'm very wary indeed, and keeping an eye on all juice testing studies for signs of new chemicals that weren't in vapour before.



Thanks for this @RichJB
Always love hearing your comments and insights

It does scare me to think that juice makers could come up with other additives that make the juice way more potent without us knowing. That would be really sly. I just worry about the "normal nic" we buy from the DIY vendors - and whether that may start containing such additives over time too.... Not that I know exactly whats in the nic I am using now - but it doesnt feel any different to what has been happening the last few years.

PS - I'll be listening to you if you find any studies that show some strange additives cropping up

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raindance

Silver said:


> The thing is @Rob Fisher , back in Oct 2013 when I used the Twisp Clearo to get off stinkies - I had 4 of them and used to puff them like crazy till they were so hot. I think I burnt out one or two batteries because of my puffing. I was determined to quit the stinkies - but the nic I got from the old devices was admittedly quite low. So it made it quite difficult. I can understand how higher nic salts in more modern equipment can make a big difference. Especially in small portable devices with low power.
> 
> Agreed though on the bigger rigs and higher power devices - doesn't seem like there is a need for nic salts to get newer vapers off stinkies - normal nicotine can work fine in those devices


Vaping worked to get me off stinkies because it lestened the suffering but still required some getting used to. Quiting with nic salts may be more of a replacement and more of a similar alternative than a move away as @RichJB states. Easy to fall back as the ties are not permanently severed.

Regards

Reactions: Like 2


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## Silver

Raindance said:


> Vaping worked to get me off stinkies because it lestened the suffering but still required some getting used to. Quiting with nic salts may be more of a replacement and more of a similar alternative than a move away as @RichJB states. Easy to fall back as the ties are not permanently severed.
> 
> Regards



Agreed @Raindance 
It took quite a bit of willpower to get off the stinkies in the early days
But with todays devices and range of juices I think its so much easier - even with the normal nic options

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

I would like to know what the defference is nicotine is between someone getting quick fix every hour or two on nic salts, and a person sucking on his mod the whole day at 3 or 6mg nic, consuming 20-30ml a day?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Raindance

Silver said:


> Agreed @Raindance
> It took quite a bit of willpower to get off the stinkies in the early days
> But with todays devices and range of juices I think its so much easier - even with the normal nic options


This conversation just made me remember that the fourth of this month I've been vaping for three years.
Good old subtank mini is what did it for me with 6mg/ml nic. On 2mg/ml now. 

Regards

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Amy

Silver said:


> I didnt like your post because of what you said - but that you have added your experiences @Amy
> I assume that your system just doesn't agree with the nic salts.
> Its good for other vapers to know they should always approach these things with a bit of caution.


Sorry didn't mean to offend or scare anyone. Just my experience with Nic salts...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Silver

Amy said:


> Sorry didn't mean to offend or scare anyone. Just my experience with Nic salts...



No dont worry - my post was not worded carefully
What I meant is that I rated your post a "like" - not because I liked that you had a nose bleed - but because I like that you shared your experience...


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## Silver

Raindance said:


> This conversation just made me remember that the fourth of this month I've been vaping for three years.
> Good old subtank mini is what did it for me with 6mg/ml nic. On 2mg/ml now.
> 
> Regards



Classic @Raindance !
And congrats on the 3 years!!!


Subtank Mini is a great device indeed!

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## Rob Fisher

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> I would like to know what the defference is nicotine is between someone getting quick fix every hour or two on nic salts, and a person sucking on his mod the whole day at 3 or 6mg nic, consuming 20-30ml a day?



Really GOOD point! I'm am the latter and am never without my mod. But I think it's because I love the flavour and the whole scene rather than a nicotine addiction.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Silver

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> I would like to know what the defference is nicotine is between someone getting quick fix every hour or two on nic salts, and a person sucking on his mod the whole day at 3 or 6mg nic, consuming 20-30ml a day?



Good question @Jean claude Vaaldamme 

With normal nic juice I suppose one vapes more or less depending on the nic content. I know with myself. If I take a few 18mg MTL toots I am sorted for a while. Before feeling I want to vape more. But with 3mg, even on a more powerful setup I can puff away and it feels like I need more. So yes, I suppose if you vape low strength or high strength you will vape what you need.

The issue with Nic Salts though (the way I see it and I am no expert) is that you get very strong liquids and if you vape them in a more powerful setup, my feeling is that its easier to get way more nicotine than with normal nic. (It absorbs better into your system). And with much lower throat hit, its likely to be easier to get too much nic. 

I don't know but that is my feeling.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bulldog

Rob Fisher said:


> Really GOOD point! I'm am the latter and am never without my mod. But I think it's because I love the flavour and the whole scene rather than a nicotine addiction.


Exactly the same with me, I am vaping around 30 - 35 ml of juice a day. I am mixing at 1,5mg but find even if vaping bought juice at 3mg it does not make me vape less. I also never feel like I am craving nic because if I am in a situation where I can't vape for a couple of hours, I don't have the same craving I did for a stinkie but rather miss the flavour and mod in my hand if that makes sense.
I have never tried nic salts and don't intend trying.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3


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## Carnival

Raindance said:


> This conversation just made me remember that the fourth of this month I've been vaping for three years.
> Good old subtank mini is what did it for me with 6mg/ml nic. On 2mg/ml now.
> 
> Regards



That’s awesome, WELL DONE!!!

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

But here is my problem. Ok firstly just want to say this, I am by no means an expert and did not do much research. WhileI was smoking I just enjoyed it, was never bothered about the health risks. But with me little understanding it seemed that the tar etc in cigarettes did damage to your lungs, causing cancer , emphysema etc. But thats only a percentage off the problem. My understanding was that nicotene clot your arteries, causing heart dissease, heart attacks etc. Look how many smokers have amputated limbs.

So like I say, I dont know if that is really true, but if it is, should you not try to get off all kinds of nicotene if you vaping for health reasons?


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## Viper_SA

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> But here is my problem. Ok firstly just want to say this, I am by no means an expert and did not do much research. WhileI was smoking I just enjoyed it, was never bothered about the health risks. But with me little understanding it seemed that the tar etc in cigarettes did damage to your lungs, causing cancer , emphysema etc. But thats only a percentage off the problem. My understanding was that nicotene clot your arteries, causing heart dissease, heart attacks etc. Look how many smokers have amputated limbs.
> 
> So like I say, I dont know if that is really true, but if it is, should you not try to get off all kinds of nicotene if you vaping for health reasons?


Nicotine is found in many food sources, like tomato for instance, and we have a gland on the pankreas that produce nicotine. Nicotine in itself is not the culprit, but the byproducts of combustion. When you start smoking, that gland on the pankreas stop working because you're overdosing. Takes up to 3 months to kick-start again, hence the withdrawal symptoms.

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## Silver

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> But here is my problem. Ok firstly just want to say this, I am by no means an expert and did not do much research. WhileI was smoking I just enjoyed it, was never bothered about the health risks. But with me little understanding it seemed that the tar etc in cigarettes did damage to your lungs, causing cancer , emphysema etc. But thats only a percentage off the problem. My understanding was that nicotene clot your arteries, causing heart dissease, heart attacks etc. Look how many smokers have amputated limbs.
> 
> So like I say, I dont know if that is really true, but if it is, should you not try to get off all kinds of nicotene if you vaping for health reasons?



Hi @Jean claude Vaaldamme

From my understanding, the nicotine in cigarettes is not what causes the majority of smoking related illnesses and premature death. As you say, its the tar that clogs up the lungs and the carcinogens that cause all the different cancers associated with smoking.

The nicotine itself is a stimulant and does raise your blood pressure and heart rate - but to my understanding in itself it is quite similar to caffeine. I don't think its good for you (better to not have it - although there are some cases where nicotine has some advantages) but i don't think nicotine is the main killer in cigarettes.

Despite that I do agree that it would be better to try wean oneself off the nicotine over time.

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## Viper_SA

Silver said:


> Hi @Jean claude Vaaldamme
> 
> From my understanding, the nicotine in cigarettes is not what causes the majority of smoking related illnesses and premature death. As you say, its the tar that clogs up the lungs and the carcinogens that cause all the different cancers associated with smoking.
> 
> The nicotine itself is a stimulant and does raise your blood pressure and heart rate - but to my understanding in itself it is quite similar to caffeine. I don't think its good for you (better to not have it - although there are some cases where nicotine has some advantages) but i don't think nicotine is the killer in cigarettes.
> 
> Despite that I do agree that it would be better to try wean oneself off the nicotine over time.


Nicotine just about cured my irritable bowel syndrome, ill never quit nicotine. Even if I have to resort to stinkies again, my nicotine I shall have

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## Beserker786

Guys, can’t I get nicotine salts in 3mg? Is that different to 3mg freebase? Like can I use it in our normal juice etc?


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Quick google gave me this
*Side effects*
Nicotine causes a wide range of side effects in most organs and systems.

The circulation of the blood can be affected in the following ways:


an increased clotting tendency, leading to a risk of harmful blood clots
atherosclerosis, in which plaque forms on the artery wall
enlargement of the aorta
Side effects in the brain include:


dizziness and lightheadedness
irregular and disturbed sleep
bad dreams and nightmares
possible blood restriction
In the gastrointestinal system, nicotine can have the following effects:


nausea and vomiting
dry mouth, or xerostomia
indigestion
peptic ulcers
diarrhea
heartburn
The heart can experience the following after taking in nicotine:


changes in heart rate and rhythm
an increase in blood pressure
constrictions and diseases of the coronary artery
an increased risk of stroke

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## Viper_SA

Yeah, I'm not buying that. Most of those sound to me like side effects of old school nicotine fixes, i. e. combustion. It's the same where for many years doctors blamed heart attacks on fatty diets, when it has now come to light that fats actually repair artery walls where they were damaged by sugar, hence the decrease sugar drive imo

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## RichJB

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> I would like to know what the defference is nicotine is between someone getting quick fix every hour or two on nic salts, and a person sucking on his mod the whole day at 3 or 6mg nic, consuming 20-30ml a day?



If you can take one or two puffs an hour of a pod with 60mg salts, great. I can't. For me, vaping is as much about a mechanical routine as it is about nicotine intake. If I had to replace my DL equipment with a pod, I'd vape exactly the same number of puffs because I'd have the same routine. But with the higher nic, I'd very quickly get accustomed to taking in vastly more nic than currently. Then I'd need to start stealth vaping while shopping in PnP, and so on. 

Currently, I can go without vaping for 5-6 hours and it doesn't affect me. That's only because I consciously worked myself down to around 10ml of 1.5mg juice daily. That's 15 'units' of nic a day. If I started with salts, guaranteed I'd need 100 units a day within a week. And if I didn't get it, I'd be climbing the walls within two hours of not being able to vape. It's not a place I'm going back to willingly.

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## Silver

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Quick google gave me this
> *Side effects*
> Nicotine causes a wide range of side effects in most organs and systems.
> 
> The circulation of the blood can be affected in the following ways:
> 
> 
> an increased clotting tendency, leading to a risk of harmful blood clots
> atherosclerosis, in which plaque forms on the artery wall
> enlargement of the aorta
> Side effects in the brain include:
> 
> 
> dizziness and lightheadedness
> irregular and disturbed sleep
> bad dreams and nightmares
> possible blood restriction
> In the gastrointestinal system, nicotine can have the following effects:
> 
> 
> nausea and vomiting
> dry mouth, or xerostomia
> indigestion
> peptic ulcers
> diarrhea
> heartburn
> The heart can experience the following after taking in nicotine:
> 
> 
> changes in heart rate and rhythm
> an increase in blood pressure
> constrictions and diseases of the coronary artery
> an increased risk of stroke



I agree with you @Jean claude Vaaldamme - nicotine is not good or harmless - and I think it is something one should try wean oneself off from

All I was saying a few posts back is that I think nicotine is not the main culprit in smoking - when it comes to the bad health effects

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## Raindance

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Quick google gave me this
> *Side effects*
> Nicotine causes a wide range of side effects in most organs and systems.
> 
> The circulation of the blood can be affected in the following ways:
> 
> 
> an increased clotting tendency, leading to a risk of harmful blood clots
> atherosclerosis, in which plaque forms on the artery wall
> enlargement of the aorta
> Side effects in the brain include:
> 
> 
> dizziness and lightheadedness
> irregular and disturbed sleep
> bad dreams and nightmares
> possible blood restriction
> In the gastrointestinal system, nicotine can have the following effects:
> 
> 
> nausea and vomiting
> dry mouth, or xerostomia
> indigestion
> peptic ulcers
> diarrhea
> heartburn
> The heart can experience the following after taking in nicotine:
> 
> 
> changes in heart rate and rhythm
> an increase in blood pressure
> constrictions and diseases of the coronary artery
> an increased risk of stroke


Those do look like the effects of an overdose and may (not making a claim of any sort here) not be the case at the levels we expose ourselves to using freebase nic. Maybe nic salts does get you closer to those levels seeing the levels and absorption rates being much higher.

I am also sceptic on the stated facts as they may have been based on the effects observed when consuming nic from a combustable source in which case many of those effects could be the result of hundreds of other chemicals. One would need to see the complete research paper those results are based on.

Regards

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Raindance said:


> Those do look like the effects of an overdose and may (not making a claim of any sort here) not be the case at the levels we expose ourselves to using freebase nic. Maybe nic salts does get you closer to those levels seeing the levels and absorption rates being much higher.
> 
> I am also sceptic on the stated facts as they may have been based on the effects observed when consuming nic from a combustable source in which case many of those effects could be the result of hundreds of other chemicals. One would need to see the complete research paper those results are based on.
> 
> Regards


 Just the first article I google, by no means conclusive, but it do seem to be not only based on smoking
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/240820.php


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## Raindance

*How the body processes nicotine*
After inhaling tobacco smoke, nicotine rapidly enters the bloodstream, crosses the blood-brain barrier, and reaches the brain within 8 to 20 seconds. Within approximately 2 hours after entering the body, half of the nicotine has gone.

How much nicotine may enter a smoker's body depends on:


the type of tobacco being used
whether or not the smoker inhales the smoke
whether a filter is used, and what type of filter it is
Tobacco products that are chewed, placed inside the mouth, or snorted tend to release considerably larger amounts of nicotine into the body than smoking.

Nicotine is broken down in the liver.

The above from the article.


Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Just the first article I google, by no means conclusive, but it do seem to be not only based on smoking
> https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/240820.php


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## Hooked

Beserker786 said:


> Guys, can’t I get nicotine salts in 3mg? Is that different to 3mg freebase? Like can I use it in our normal juice etc?



@Beserker786 I don't know if you can buy nic salts in 3mg, but I've had juice which contains only 3mg nic salts:

https://www.ecigssa.co.za/milkshake-liquids-reviews.t49013/

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## Hooked

Silver said:


> Good question @Jean claude Vaaldamme
> 
> With normal nic juice I suppose one vapes more or less depending on the nic content. I know with myself. If I take a few 18mg MTL toots I am sorted for a while. Before feeling I want to vape more. But with 3mg, even on a more powerful setup I can puff away and it feels like I need more. So yes, I suppose if you vape low strength or high strength you will vape what you need.
> 
> The issue with Nic Salts though (the way I see it and I am no expert) is that you get very strong liquids and if you vape them in a more powerful setup, my feeling is that its easier to get way more nicotine than with normal nic. (It absorbs better into your system). And with much lower throat hit, its likely to be easier to get too much nic.
> 
> I don't know but that is my feeling.



@Silver @Jean claude Vaaldamme Nic salts shouldn't be vaped in a powerful setup, unless the nic strength is low approx. below 10mg. I've yet to buy a bottle of nic salts with such a low strength. The lowest I've seen is 20mg. High nic, whether nic salts or freebase, should be vaped only at low wattage (approx. 10W) and never sub-ohm.

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## Hooked

I vape nic salts every day - but not all day. I just take a few puffs here and there when I feel the need for a turbo charge.

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## Waine

I enjoy nic salts. You use less juice. You vape less. It's almost akin to learning to smoke a tight cigar, for want of a better description.

The salts and MTL combo is a different style completely. However, MTL and especially nic salts are new territory with unknown health results. The benzene extraction process (something like that) is a concern. It's a risk, but I am not sorry I went down the nic Salts rabbit creek. My 4 Berserker Mini's, and the recent addition: the BSKR V1.5, with my many different salts, I rate it better than conventional e-liquid and Atomizers, if I had to choose one.

It may also be an age thing. 

So it's a big "yay" from me @Silver

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

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## Hooked

Just by the way, nicotine has positive effects on Parkinsons and Alzheimers.

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## Rob Fisher

My whole journey is striving for the perfect flavour and no Nic Salts come even close to even pleasant... and Salts are really made for Pods and man do I dislike pod systems... but I guess I'm just a grumpy old man who has settled on a decent DL RTA and a very narrow range of juice profile.

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## Silver

Waine said:


> I enjoy nic salts. You use less juice. You vape less. It's almost akin to learning to smoke a tight cigar, for want of a better description.
> 
> The salts and MTL combo is a different style completely. However, MTL and especially nic salts are new territory with unknown health results. The benzene extraction process (something like that) is a concern. It's a risk, but I am not sorry I went down the nic Salts rabbit creek. My 4 Berserker Mini's, and the recent addition: the BSKR V1.5, with my many different salts, I rate it better than conventional e-liquid and Atomizers, if I had to choose one.
> 
> It may also be an age thing.
> 
> So it's a big "yay" from me @Silver
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk



Thats interesting @Waine, thanks

How does the vaping of nic salts compare for you with normal nic in your mtl setups?
I assume you have tried with high strength normal nic eg 18mg
How is the flavour? And the throat hit on the actual vape for you?


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## Alex

https://www.ecigssa.co.za/nicotine-clinical-trials-missing.t8093/

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## Raindance

Alex said:


> https://www.ecigssa.co.za/nicotine-clinical-trials-missing.t8093/


Thanks @Alex. I postulate that certain chemicals in cigarette smoke causes a "hole" which gets smoothed over by nicotine. With a half-life of about two hours in a person with a normal metabolism, the "hole" remains after the nicotine stops covering it, hence the need to replenish every so often. each event leading to a the "hole" getting a bit bigger and then need for nicotine increasing proportionally. Creating the appearance of dependancy on nicotine, which is kind of true, but the dependancy was not created by the nicotine itself. Nic is therefore not the culprit.

For this reason I prefer to stick to pure plain nic with no additives or enhancements.

Regards

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## Hooked

Rob Fisher said:


> My whole journey is striving for the perfect flavour and no Nic Salts come even close to even pleasant... and Salts are really made for Pods and man do I dislike pod systems... but I guess I'm just a grumpy old man who has settled on a decent DL RTA and a very narrow range of juice profile.
> View attachment 153857



@Rob Fisher I'm with you on the flavour and I definitely don't use nic salts for flavour - just for the nic!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Raindance said:


> Thanks @Alex. I postulate that certain chemicals in cigarette smoke causes a "hole" which gets smoothed over by nicotine. With a half-life of about two hours in a person with a normal metabolism, the "hole" remains after the nicotine stops covering it, hence the need to replenish every so often. each event leading to a the "hole" getting a bit bigger and then need for nicotine increasing proportionally. Creating the appearance of dependancy on nicotine, which is kind of true, but the dependancy was not created by the nicotine itself. Nic is therefore not the culprit.
> 
> For this reason I prefer to stick to pure plain nic with no additives or enhancements.
> 
> Regards


If you want to know if Toyota is the safest car in the world, surely you wont go and get all your evidence off Toyota's website?


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Hooked said:


> @Rob Fisher I'm with you on the flavour and I definitely don't use nic salts for flavour - just for the nic!


But the study says that you can only get nic addiction from tobacco nic, so if you are off sigarettes for a few months, then we all should be on 0mg, as we should have no more nic dependency, according to the study


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## RichJB

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> But the study says that you can only get nic addiction from tobacco nic, so if you are off sigarettes for a few months, then we all should be on 0mg, as we should have no more nic dependency, according to the study



I wouldn't believe that study. There may be chemicals added to tobacco which make the nicotine in it _more _addictive. But the theory that nicotine is only addictive in tobacco smoke sounds far-fetched to me. I know vapers who didn't smoke and are now just as dependent on nic as any smoker. So it sounds like a whisky company putting out studies that only the alcohol in beer is addictive, the alcohol in whisky isn't. So you can drink their whisky, safe in the knowledge that it will never turn you into an alcoholic. It is a sales pitch, not science. 

The other theory that vaping advocacy tried to advance is that nic can't be addictive because they haven't managed to induce addiction in clinical trial subjects. However, that applies to most substances. In this TED Talk, Johann Hari explains the dynamics behind drug addiction:

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## Waine

Silver said:


> Thats interesting @Waine, thanks
> 
> How does the vaping of nic salts compare for you with normal nic in your mtl setups?
> I assume you have tried with high strength normal nic eg 18mg
> How is the flavour? And the throat hit on the actual vape for you?


Silver, for me it makes no sense filling an MTL tank with 2ml's of regular eliquid. I never do it. The viscosity of the liquid is too thick and there is no satisfaction with the tight draw that MTL delivers. I would clog/burn the coil sucking so much. Also, using high nic, regular juice, eg 12 or 18 mg, is not pleasant for in an MTL for me. 

I still vape regular RDA's, RTA's and squonkers, but when I need a quick satisfying hit I pull out one of my ever present ready to vape MTL's in my arsenal of which I own 10.

I love variety with vaping, and MTL brings a really enjoyable angle on vaping.

Having said that, I tried pod systems, like the Smoant S8. But these are too finicky and disappointing. 

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

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## Carnival

The lowest nic salts I’ve seen (and tried) is NCV nic salts @ 15mg.

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## Resistance

Silver said:


> Hi @Jean claude Vaaldamme
> 
> From my understanding, the nicotine in cigarettes is not what causes the majority of smoking related illnesses and premature death. As you say, its the tar that clogs up the lungs and the carcinogens that cause all the different cancers associated with smoking.
> 
> The nicotine itself is a stimulant and does raise your blood pressure and heart rate - but to my understanding in itself it is quite similar to caffeine. I don't think its good for you (better to not have it - although there are some cases where nicotine has some advantages) but i don't think nicotine is the main killer in cigarettes.
> 
> Despite that I do agree that it would be better to try wean oneself off the nicotine over time.


Caffeine is actually good to a certain point as are nicotine ,alchohol and whatever else we use to make our day pass by. The problem is that we overdo it and then create dependance to these stimulants. 
Me however dont crave smoking. I crave the plant or rather tobacco. The smell, the taste and aroma's and that's a hard one to beat. 
On salt,yes I have tried it but cant say I like it or would go for it.

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## Hooked

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> But the study says that you can only get nic addiction from tobacco nic, so if you are off sigarettes for a few months, then we all should be on 0mg, as we should have no more nic dependency, according to the study



@Jean claude Vaaldamme I've never been off nic lol. I stopped smoking with Nicorette which I chewed for 3 years. Each piece of Nicorette has 2mg nic. Started vaping just over a year ago. I tried to alternate between a tank of 3mg and a tank of zero nic, but it didn't work for me. I become very irritable without nic.

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## Waine

I am physically and psychologically addicted to nicotine, and I am not even going to fight it anymore. No matter how many times I have quit, I always come back to Lady Nicotine. Same goes for her cousin caffeine. 

Regular vaping and especially MTL, strokes the nic receptors in my brain perfectly.

I just hope its safe(ish)

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

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## Resistance

Raindance said:


> Those do look like the effects of an overdose and may (not making a claim of any sort here) not be the case at the levels we expose ourselves to using freebase nic. Maybe nic salts does get you closer to those levels seeing the levels and absorption rates being much higher.
> 
> I am also sceptic on the stated facts as they may have been based on the effects observed when consuming nic from a combustable source in which case many of those effects could be the result of hundreds of other chemicals. One would need to see the complete research paper those results are based on.
> 
> Regards



My brother I feel the same. How many nicotine choices do we have and people still smoke cigarettes and if it was really just the nicotine we would be satisfied with any means of getting it into our system.so my theory allows me to make sence of what you saying.


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## GSM500

Silver said:


> That's interesting @incredible_hullk
> Ive heard comments before about the strange taste - but not about the coughing.
> I suppose each person experiences them differently


I have to agree on the strange taste, tastes like someone watered down my juice with vinegar. I also suffered from an irritated chest. Felt like I inhaled popping candy. I mixed my own @ 24mg. I'll stick to freebase thanks.

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## RichJB

Waine said:


> Same goes for her cousin caffeine.



A friend of mine completed the great trifecta: giving up nicotine, alcohol and caffeine. She said coffee was - by far - the hardest of the three. 

I suspect I would find the same. I've never been a drinker, only a glass of wine with dinner. But I've gone without for weeks on end and it doesn't faze me. 

Nicotine I struggled. If withdrawal manifested in the usual way - occasional intense cravings which subside within about ten minutes and become less frequent over time - I could quit entirely. But in my case it manifested as continuous "butterflies in the tummy" which started about half an hour after I woke in the morning and just became more intense as the day continued. I quit cold turkey for a month before vaping (no NRT) and initially it was fine. But eventually that continuous nervous feeling, like I'm just about to give a speech on stage to a thousand people, wore me down. But I at least have it under control now, am taking in way less nic than I did while smoking, and need nic far less regularly than I did while smoking. I can go 5-6 hours without vaping, I would have really suffered going 5-6 hours without a smoke.

Coffee I don't even want to try. If I don't have two cups, right after each other, first thing in the morning, I just don't function. My nose starts to run, I get a headache, I'm irritable and can't focus on my work. So I'll live with caffeine addiction. But at least coffee is an affordable addiction. Alcohol, drugs and even nicotine can quickly spiral out of control. A vaper I know in Discord vapes 90ml of juice a day. If he didn't DIY, that would be a R300 a day habit, which is getting into cocaine territory in terms of financial harm. Go to an investment advisor, tell him you have R300 a day to sink into unit trusts and other investments, and ask him to calculate what your payout will be when you turn 65. It will be an eight figure sum. *That* is what nic addiction can cost. The health harms, trivial as they are, are very much a secondary concern.

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## Rincewind

Nicotine has never been proven to be addictive on its own. Just because some people got addicted does not mean the substance itself is addictive. I have read of people that got hooked on eating soap or couldnt stop themselves from spreading engine oil on their toast. This does not make soap or engine oil addictive substances.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1939993/

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## RichJB

I don't think vaping is ever going to convince the medical fraternity or the broader non-smoking public that nicotine isn't addictive. Or that big tobacco's nicotine is addictive but vaping's nicotine isn't. That just reads too much like a sales pitch.

As per Johann Hari's TED talk I posted earlier, heroin on its own isn't addictive either. Millions of hospital patients have been given heroin for post-op pain relief and they don't leave hospital as junkies. However, we cannot conclude from this that nicotine or heroin are no more addictive than eating soap. Because if that was the case, we'd have roughly equal numbers of drugs, nicotine and soap-eating addicts in society.

I think vaping advocacy should focus on the fights that it can win. Trying to convince society that nicotine isn't addictive, and there is therefore no reason for kids not to use it, is a guaranteed loss. Even if there is some truth to the theory - as there is with the parallel theory that heroin isn't addictive - it's not a notion that broader society is willing to entertain.

I don't think Hari's view, that it's about our cage rather than the substance and about bonding rather than addiction, is 100% right either. Because for sure there are smokers who are otherwise very sociable, successful, loving families, balanced harmonious lifestyle, lots of friends and so on. Why are they now addicted?

The latest research indicates that there are physiological differences too. We don't all have the same nicotine receptors in our brains. There are various different types of receptors and some are far more nicotine-hungry than others. So it's possible that the individual's DNA can, to a degree, determine their susceptibility to becoming addicted. If they happen to be born with an abundance of the wrong type of receptors, they will get hooked at the drop of a hat. Whereas those with the 'right' (least efficient) type of receptors could smoke for months and still not develop a significant dependency on nicotine.

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## tool

As being a chainsmoker for 30+ years, yes, I crave for the nicotine. I vape about 5ml/day with 15mg/ml nic, and that's okay for me. In my DtL times I got through 30-50ml 3mg/ml juice per day, so my total nic intake dropped, yet I get more satisfaction through MtL vaping. I'll try the salt stuff in a couple of weeks, there's 100mg base to buy in UK, I'll dillute it to 20-25mg/ml hoping to reduce my juice consumption in total, but I'll have a hard time dropping the amount of nic per draw. I don't need huge amounts ofe nic over the course of the day, but I need some kick while taking a draw. In the throat and in the brain.

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## Puff the Magic Dragon

I took a look at some of the advice given in the article by MedicalNewsToday mentioned above.

Their advice for giving up smoking was to use one or a combination of the following :

1. Prepare for quit day
2. Use NRTs
3. Consider non-nicotine medications
4. Seek behavioural support
5. Try alternative therapies

E-cigs are included under the alternative therapies which also suggest :



*magnet therapy*
*cold laser therapy*
*herbs and supplements

yoga, mindfulness, and meditation
*




*Good luck with that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## tool

Nicotine is not an enemy. It is in Tobacco, but not in vapejuice. I'd love to link some videos made by an austrian professor who is a toxicologist, but they are in german. He's a vaper and he clearly explains nicotine consumption under a scientific point of view, and it's not as harmful as it seems.

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## Grand Guru

The point here is to maintain a sufficient concentration of nicotine in your blood that is satisfies your respective needs whether you vape nic salts at above 30mg/ml or a Normal
Nicotine at 3mg/ml it is essentially the same thing. As long as you use nicotine and can’t survive without it, eventually your need/usage may or may not grow. That’s called “Addiction”!
On the other hand your body tells you if you used too much of it: dizziness, headaches, stomachaches, nausea and fast heart beat so companies may try to increase the nicotine in their liquid, your body will let you know...

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## RichJB

I'm not worried about companies putting more nic (than is advertised) in their juice. That would be a very crude mechanism to try and increase usage, and one that would be picked up very easily by the most basic of testing.

Instead, what I'm worried about is artificial chemical stimulation of the nicotine receptors in our brains. As I said earlier, there are several different categories of these receptors. Some pair with nicotine molecules very easily and metabolise the nic quickly and effectively. This provides the greatest sensory reward and is thus the most addictive. If genetics gives you a surplus of this type of receptor, you'll become a nic addict very easily.

Medical research knows about this and is now getting to the point where it can manipulate it. Pharma companies are already producing NRT with chemically engineered nic which targets and shuts down these most active receptors first, resulting in lesser cravings and longer periods before cravings re-occur. So the NRT works better at reducing cravings and helping you to quit.

But what if tobacco and vaping do the opposite - add chemically engineered nic which shuts down the least efficient receptors, leaving only the most efficient receptors to take the full nic load? This will have the opposite effect: the nic will metabolise faster, you'll get a greater nic rush and it will take less time before you feel the need for more nic. So they would be turning you into a helpless addict by targeting the most efficient receptors in your brain and increasing your brain's proclivity to sensory reward and therefore addiction. Which is great for sales.

The problem is that such chemical additives might not show up in regulatory testing. Or they might show up but the testers might be unsure of what the chemical actually does, and therefore take no action against it. Lab researchers are getting way too clever with smart drugs these days for me to trust them.


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## Rincewind

RichJB said:


> I don't think vaping is ever going to convince the medical fraternity or the broader non-smoking public that nicotine isn't addictive. Or that big tobacco's nicotine is addictive but vaping's nicotine isn't. That just reads too much like a sales pitch.
> 
> As per Johann Hari's TED talk I posted earlier, heroin on its own isn't addictive either. Millions of hospital patients have been given heroin for post-op pain relief and they don't leave hospital as junkies. However, we cannot conclude from this that nicotine or heroin are no more addictive than eating soap. Because if that was the case, we'd have roughly equal numbers of drugs, nicotine and soap-eating addicts in society.
> 
> I think vaping advocacy should focus on the fights that it can win. Trying to convince society that nicotine isn't addictive, and there is therefore no reason for kids not to use it, is a guaranteed loss. Even if there is some truth to the theory - as there is with the parallel theory that heroin isn't addictive - it's not a notion that broader society is willing to entertain.
> 
> I don't think Hari's view, that it's about our cage rather than the substance and about bonding rather than addiction, is 100% right either. Because for sure there are smokers who are otherwise very sociable, successful, loving families, balanced harmonious lifestyle, lots of friends and so on. Why are they now addicted?
> 
> The latest research indicates that there are physiological differences too. We don't all have the same nicotine receptors in our brains. There are various different types of receptors and some are far more nicotine-hungry than others. So it's possible that the individual's DNA can, to a degree, determine their susceptibility to becoming addicted. If they happen to be born with an abundance of the wrong type of receptors, they will get hooked at the drop of a hat. Whereas those with the 'right' (least efficient) type of receptors could smoke for months and still not develop a significant dependency on nicotine.



1. The nicotine in vapes, NRT's and cigarettes are the same, its the delivery method and the chemicals it is combined with that differs. That is why so few people get addicted to NRT's and so many to cigarettes. I am not adding nic salts to this list since I have no info on that. But once again things are being added to the nic to increase the absorption rate. And increased absorption rate does seem to be linked to increased chance of addiction.

2. John Hari studied social and political sciences and has no relevant medical training that I can find. Not that it matters. He is also a disgraced journo who had to return the Orwell Prize because of plagiarism. But that doesnt matter either. If Mr Hari has made some fantastic discovery he should write it up and submit it for peer review so that other scientists can weigh in and check his work. That makes his whole "show" an opinion piece with nothing to back it up. 

As for why millions of people arent getting addicted to opioids, just google "Opioid Crisis" and I think you'll find that millions of people are indeed getting addicted. Not so much for soap.

He does mention Bruce K. Alexander and his "Rat Park" experiments and though Alexander has had a long and distinguished career his findings for the Rat Park experiments are in dispute. Here is a quote from his wiki regarding the Rat Park expirements: This article is seriously biased, particularly for a scientist whose views are as out of the mainstream as Alexander's. Sentences like "However, an American representative in the World Health Assembly effectively banned publication, apparently because the study seemed to contradict the dominant myth of addicting drugs, as applied to cocaine." imply some sort of grand conspiracy to silence him, when really it's his unreplicable research that is keeping him from recognition.

So as stated ealier, Mr Hari's views are just that. Views, and cannot be used to prove anything.

3. On your last point I mostly agree but would like to clarify that "If they happen to be born with an abundance of the wrong type of receptors, they will get hooked at the drop of a hat. Whereas those with the 'right' (least efficient) type of receptors could smoke for months and still not develop a significant dependency on nicotine." proves nothing about the substance in question, and everything about the individual who partakes of said substance.

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## Raindance

Addiction is a rather complex subject and may in fact not be solely a matter of chemical dependancy. I think we can safely accept that there ate those whom seem to be more prone to adopting addictions than others. Whether that is the result of personality trates like lack of willpower or a more deeply routed biological cause originating from genetic makeup is debatable. Maybe both?

But there are other factors as well. Habbit, peer pressure, just plain enjoyment, escape, I think the list goes on.

People not only get addicted to so called drugs. We get addicted to exercise, tv programmed, social media, food....

In my mind the possibility exists that addiction may be more a matter of adopted behavior that has become part of a persons daily existence resulting in a habit without which that person could possibly no longer relate to himself.

Then again maybe not or all of the above combined.

Regards

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## Chukin'Vape

If you are already on low freebase nic, and doing well - dont even bother looking at nic salts. The hit you get from it is a real shock the system... do you guys remember that head rush from the first cigarette in the morning.... Well nic salts will give you that and more. Its such a strong stimulant that my palms started sweating from using it, and I found myself hyped up - almost as if you drank one cup of coffee to much in the morning. The truth about nic salts has not hit the mainstream yet, and the problem is that salts is considered what vaping is in the US. So I foresee problems in the future. Getting off salts felt a lot like getting off ciggies. My advice would be to not even try this once.

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## RichJB

Rincewind said:


> If Mr Hari has made some fantastic discovery he should write it up and submit it for peer review so that other scientists can weigh in and check his work.



Do you disagree with his view that many people in hospital are given opioids for pain relief, yet few of them emerge from hospital as drug addicts? If old ladies who go in for hip replacements were going to become heroin addicts merely from taking the pain medication, would hospitals even be legally allowed to provide it? It seems obvious to me that Hari has a valid point. Whether he committed plagiarism or not on some other matter is inconsequential. He is making an observation that tallies with our own common sense. So if heroin addiction can't be reliably induced simply by taking the drug, is it that surprising that nicotine should be similar?



Rincewind said:


> The nicotine in vapes, NRT's and cigarettes are the same, its the delivery method and the chemicals it is combined with that differs.



On this we agree. And if vaping contented itself by claiming that cigarette smoking is the easiest and surest way to instill nic addiction because it's the most efficient delivery method for nicotine, and/or that tobacco companies are putting additives into their product, I'd be fine with that. It's when vaping goes the extra step of claiming that nic isn't addictive, that it's "something else in tobacco smoke" that is causing the addiction, that I object. Because that again becomes a sales pitch, not science.

On the subject of Rat Park, I think the premise is sound. I participated in a study last year which, among other things, examined smoking rates among the mentally ill. The figures are universal on this: in every country, every group who is marginalised in some way - the poorer, the less educated, the unemployed, the disabled, the LGBT community, refugees/immigrants - has a higher smoking rate than the national average. Among those with schizophrenia and depression, it's something like 2-3x higher than the national average. So clearly there are "cage" aspects in play. It's not just the physical effect of the drug or even the physiological make-up of the smoker. There are demographic class/status issues as well. If people don't feel appreciated or valued in their society, the chances of them becoming nicotine dependent increase.

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## Rincewind

RichJB said:


> Do you disagree with his view that many people in hospital are given opioids for pain relief, yet few of them emerge from hospital as drug addicts? If old ladies who go in for hip replacements were going to become heroin addicts merely from taking the pain medication, would hospitals even be legally allowed to provide it? It seems obvious to me that Hari has a valid point. Whether he committed plagiarism or not on some other matter is inconsequential. He is making an observation that tallies with our own common sense. So if heroin addiction can't be reliably induced simply by taking the drug, is it that surprising that nicotine should be similar?
> 
> 
> 
> On this we agree. And if vaping contented itself by claiming that cigarette smoking is the easiest and surest way to instill nic addiction because it's the most efficient delivery method for nicotine, and/or that tobacco companies are putting additives into their product, I'd be fine with that. It's when vaping goes the extra step of claiming that nic isn't addictive, that it's "something else in tobacco smoke" that is causing the addiction, that I object. Because that again becomes a sales pitch, not science.



I do disagree, vehemently so  : https://www.moveforwardpt.com/Resources/Detail/7-staggering-statistics-about-america-s-opioid-epi

By the numbers literally millions of people are abusing and getting addicted to opioids. Now on a population level that is not going to be a large percentage but its enough to cement their place as highly addictive substances.

Here are some more links: https://labblog.uofmhealth.org/rounds/what-these-10-studies-taught-us-about-opioid-addiction-2017
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180612105731.htm

So clearly, whether is sounds like common sense or not, old ladies and others are getting addicted... Reliably, predictably and common senseably (is that a real word?). Stating otherwise is a clear denial of the facts.

On the other hand we have NRT's, which have been available for years with tens of millions of users. Its available over the counter without the need to show an ID and only a handful of people world wide have become addicted. Clearly if it was just the nicotine addicting people then those numbers would be different. Patches and gums would be prescription medication, they would be highly regulated and they would certainly not be available over the counter. 

How do you square this obvious contradiction in the numbers? How are cigarettes highly addictive but patches and gums are not?

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## RichJB

I'm not saying people aren't getting addicted. I'm saying that you cannot reliably induce addiction by giving a hospital patient opiods for post-op pain relief. If it was a cert that giving a patient opioids would lead to addiction, hospitals would be forbidden from issuing opioids. The knock to the patient's quality of life would be deemed too big a downside. The same applies to soldiers wounded in battle. Hundreds of thousands were given morphine for the pain. Only a very small percentage become morphine addicts. No drug, not alcohol, not nicotine, not opioids, induces addiction reliably and invariably. Not even smoking does. Of the huge numbers of teens who try it, relatively few go on to become full-time smokers.

On the issue of NRTs, it's a tricky one because the vast majority who take them are already addicts. Unlike vaping, it is not a lifestyle product. The cool kids at school aren't sticking nicotine patches on their skin. There aren't competitions to see who can blow the biggest bubble with their nicotine gum. Patch users don't stand in the middle of malls making a big show of putting their patches on so that bystanders will pat them on the head and congratulate them for being the smartest guys in the room for quitting stinkies.

For those who aren't addicted to nic and who take NRT, I think it would be minimally addictive because it's a slow-release mechanism that won't give you a nic rush but is instead designed to release just enough nic to allay withdrawal pangs. So there is little sensory reward and it's the sensory reward that makes it addictive. Unless you stick ten patches on your skin. But people don't use ten patches and the reason they don't is because the pharma companies who make them instruct against it. They give very specific instructions on how much of their product you should use, and for how long before stopping use. 

This too is why pharma is granted more leniency by govt than vaping companies are. If vaping companies urged users to vape no more than 5ml of liquid per day, to continually strive to reduce the nic content of their juice, and to vape for no more than three months before trying to quit nic altogether, govt would be a lot more amenable towards vaping as a smoking cessation tool.


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## RichJB

On the subject of opioid addiction, the stats bear out what Johann Hari was saying. America's epidemic of opioid use is not among hospital patients who are issued opioids and become incidentally addicted. Instead, it's happening among the youth who actively go out and seek opioids from street dealers. Wayne talked a lot about his heroin addiction and he attributed it to being bored and having no prospects. This is the case all across America. There are hundreds of small "factory towns" where, for years, kids would grow up in the town, get a job at the local factory and would live comfortable middle-class lives. Then those factories started closing down, jobs got shipped out to China or Mexico and suddenly those kids now have no prospects and nothing to live for. So, as Hari says, they turn to drugs to fill a hole in their lives.

We are seeing the same thing here in SA. I have chatted to community workers in Mpumalanga and they attest to the same phenomenon: small towns where the jobs have dried up and the youth are now turning to nyaope in their hordes. There are towns where functionally the entire town are now nyaope addicts. Or tik in the Cape. It's not just that these are addictive substances, they are. But it's because people are driven to addiction by an environment where there are few prospects and little hope. It's an ideal breeding ground for a drug epidemic. The addictive qualities of the drug are only part of the story. There is a whole socio-economic aspect as well.


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## Silver

Hi guys 

Great discussions going on here

But I would like to hear more about Nic salts - and from those that have tried them - what have your experiences been ?


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## Alex

I have a few bottles of nic salt juices that I use on occasion, not for the salts per say, but just because they are within arms reach on my desk.. and they happen to be tobacco flavoured. 

I am happy to finish them because I can't let it go to waste, but I wouldn't purchase nic salt juices. I love my 18mg freebase, and the low consumption that goes along with it. I only go through about 6-7ml per day. And I'm really cool with this setup.

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## jm10

Silver said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Great discussions going on here
> 
> But I would like to hear more about Nic salts - and from those that have tried them - what have your experiences been ?



Nic Salts worked for me, up until 1 month ago i still had a craving and when out with a guys i would say ag one cig wont hurt but had to convince myself not to.

Now days i dont even think about smoking and the cravings have gone.

Yesterday and today i went the entire day with just freebase 3mg and never craved the nic salts.

I would say nic salts worked for me and I’m grateful to it, it did its job.

When i first tried nic salts my chest would get a little heavy and i did @Silver a few times but after a while my body got use to it and that was that.

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## Vix

I used nic salts for close to 8 months exclusively with all matter of pod system from the Suorin drop to my current Lost Vape Orion. My main reason for using Nic salts was for the throat hit you got from it I found much more satisfying than 3 or 6mg Freebase. My main issue is a few months in started realizing I was very susceptible to getting a very irritated throat and sinuses that got super irritated. Shortness of breath also became more prevalent but think that was more on me as I like a restricted DL.

I have now switched back to 3 and 6mg Freebase on my Dvarw DL and must say starting to think due to the limited juice choices in salts and having to replace pods every second day combined with the above "health" drawbacks doubt ill go back to salt nics.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Silver

Vix said:


> I used nic salts for close to 8 months exclusively with all matter of pod system from the Suorin drop to my current Lost Vape Orion. My main reason for using Nic salts was for the throat hit you got from it I found much more satisfying than 3 or 6mg Freebase. My main issue is a few months in started realizing I was very susceptible to getting a very irritated throat and sinuses that got super irritated. Shortness of breath also became more prevalent but think that was more on me as I like a restricted DL.
> 
> I have now switched back to 3 and 6mg Freebase on my Dvarw DL and must say starting to think due to the limited juice choices in salts and having to replace pods every second day combined with the above "health" drawbacks doubt ill go back to salt nics.



You raise a good point @Vix 
The options for higher strength normal nic juices (above 6mg) are not very plentiful
There are a few vendors that sell their juices in a customisable fashion all the way up to 18 and beyond - but they are few. 

Maybe the nic salts are appealing to those who want more nic and can't get it in normal nic version juice.

I just found that the throat hit on the nic salts was much lower. What I mean by throat hit is the sensation while vaping. There was a big cumulative nic loading over time - but when taking a drag, it was very smooth.


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## Vix

Silver said:


> You raise a good point @Vix
> The options for higher strength normal nic juices (above 6mg) are not very plentiful
> There are a few vendors that sell their juices in a customisable fashion all the way up to 18 and beyond - but they are few.
> 
> Maybe the nic salts are appealing to those who want more nic and can't get it in normal nic version juice.
> 
> I just found that the throat hit on the nic salts was much lower. What I mean by throat hit is the sensation while vaping. There was a big cumulative nic loading over time - but when taking a drag, it was very smooth.



I was on stinkies for 17 years and been vaping for 2 and always searched for that throat sensation. For me personally exactly as you say that sensation in your throat when vaping is more what I am after than the nicotine itself and initially Nic salts gave that to me but not better than freebase just more frequently.

But out side of the irritation it caused to my throat and sinuses the main reason I moved back to freebase is the massive change in options of juice available compared to nic salts.

Reactions: Like 2


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## kev mac

Carnival said:


> I believe they have their place, even though I definitely think there’s a risk of becoming more dependent on nicotine when using nic salts. For me at the moment, I take a few puffs here and there in between vaping free base and it helps curb the cravings for a stinkie. I’m giving myself a week from today, using nic salts, and after that I want to stick to free base. I’d rather not use nic salts long term.


I started out at 24 nic on the advice of my B+M and gradually got it down to 3 with no craves, it'll work for you as from what I've read nicotine isn't the most addictive on its own.The combination of the many toxins along with nicotine in combination thoughtfully provided by Philip Morris and friends is what does it.

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## RayDeny

I’m a avid salt Nic user, there is always a skyline set up in MTL mode with some 40mg close by or a pod system.No, it’s not a all day vape but it is always close by when I am unable to go out for a real vape ie. when flying or at airports or in between meetings or while in the hangar or just in the office. It’s kind o my in between vape .

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## Chanelr

Thanks for this @Silver really interesting read and to see everyone's comments on it.
I do like my nic salts here and there...

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## Carnival

Silver said:


> Let us know how it goes @Carnival
> I suppose even if it takes you a bit longer to wean yourself off the odd nic salt puff here and there - you are still doing a great thing avoiding the combustion. Am keen to hear though how it feels when you stop or reduce the nic salts. I.e. if the cravings come back...



Off the nic salts and I honestly don’t miss it. The last puff I took, I actually didn’t enjoy. Cravings for a stinkie have stayed away, I’m just carrying on normally with free base nic now.

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## Silver

Carnival said:


> Off the nic salts and I honestly don’t miss it. The last puff I took, I actually didn’t enjoy. Cravings for a stinkie have stayed away, I’m just carrying on normally with free base nic now.



Good to hear the cravings are at bay
Thanks for the update @Carnival 

At the end of the day if we are off the stinkies then we are winning!

Reactions: Like 3


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## Resistance

Everything is addictive.if not to you then to someone else.even nic patches.the tobaccy plant,ice cream,sweets and chocolates and the all time favorite...Coca cola.
Your body craves what it needs to function properly especially if your used to it. And your body also craves food and fruits because of how it metabolises and helps release hormones that your body needs to make you feel good.
For some nice salts work and for others free based works but then for others the craving still persists for smoking because we metabolise nic differently.just make a tobacco tea and see how that craving goes away. I do believe some people are addicted to tobacco (as a plant) or whatever else is in there that we never heard about. That's why NET is the only thing that work for a few vapers.


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Well certain things are definately more addictive than other. Few years ago I had a 14 day stint in hospital and I was given at least once a day pethadine(spelling?) Injected straight into a vein via a drip. Up to three years after that I still sometimes got a huge craving for that. And I never used drugs etc. Ok except for a few pappegaaislaai zolle in university

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## Resistance

Hence most heroine addicts admit first taste was prescription drugs. other drugs like coke I'm not sure ,but tobacco is a story of its own.


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## Vix

Resistance said:


> Everything is addictive.if not to you then to someone else.even nic patches.the tobaccy plant,ice cream,sweets and chocolates and the all time favorite...Coca cola.
> Your body craves what it needs to function properly especially if your used to it. And your body also craves food and fruits because of how it metabolises and helps release hormones that your body needs to make you feel good.
> For some nice salts work and for others free based works but then for others the craving still persists for smoking because we metabolise nic differently.just make a tobacco tea and see how that craving goes away. I do believe some people are addicted to tobacco (as a plant) or whatever else is in there that we never heard about. That's why NET is the only thing that work for a few vapers.



I find I am even addicted to the action of vaping and I honestly think this is one of the main reasons vaping is such a success to get off the stinkies. The habit of smoking is just as addictive as the actual tabacco and nicotine and I found being able to still do my "routine" and the put something to my mouth and inhale or take a "smoke break" but vaping made getting off the stinkies so much easier.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 2


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## Resistance

Vix said:


> I find I am even addicted to the action of vaping and I honestly think this is one of the main reasons vaping is such a success to get off the stinkies. The habit of smoking is just as addictive as the actual tabacco and nicotine and I found being able to still do my "routine" and the put something to my mouth and inhale or take a "smoke break" but vaping made getting off the stinkies so much easier.


I normally let a pencil hang in my mouth like a stinkie. The taste of wood helps at times.
With so many chemicals in a stinkies, who is to say it's not the nicotine and maybe one of the other chemical substances we were addicted to and the nic just helps with the cravings.

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## Vitblitz

incredible_hullk said:


> My experience with nic salts has been constant coughing even at the 20-25 mg range which is the lowest I believe
> 
> Too much for me with a very tight chest feeling
> 
> Taste - I get a prominent chemical, acidic taste which put me off



Yea I find the flavour muted compared to normal e-juice, the coughing as well and that is makes me feel dizzy even a few days later.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Hooked

As @incredible_hullk said, there is definitely a chemical taste to nic salts. I used to love nic salts and still vape it for the high nic when I need a turbo-charge, but I'm getting tired of that chemical taste. 

I've tried a number of different flavours and brands and I think the best one for flavour is Joose - Toffee D'Lux *Mint *@Naeemhoosen

I used to be a big fan of Element and although I still enjoy the Gusto pods, but the liquid juice doesn't taste as good in other mods.

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## saa044

Odd thing is, a Vape shop owner told me Nic Salt juice is mainly meant for devices like this (Image below). Warned me that if I use it in a vape device like mine (Istick Pico) that I can get nicotine poisoning. This true?


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## Silver

saa044 said:


> Odd thing is, a Vape shop owner told me Nic Salt juice is mainly meant for devices like this (Image below). Warned me that if I use it in a vape device like mine (Istick Pico) that I can get nicotine poisoning. This true?



It depends on the strength of the Nic salts and the type of power you would vape it on in your Pico. 

If you using lowish power (say under 15 watts) and higher ohm coils (say 1 ohm and above) then it should be okay. 

If the Nic salt is very strong you may get an overdose of Nic and not feel well for a while if you vape it on too much power like you would normal juices at high power with lots of airflow.

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## Hooked

Silver said:


> It depends on the strength of the Nic salts and the type of power you would vape it on in your Pico.
> 
> If you using lowish power (say under 15 watts) and higher ohm coils (say 1 ohm and above) then it should be okay.
> 
> If the Nic salt is very strong you may get an overdose of Nic and not feel well for a while if you vape it on too much power like you would normal juices at high power with lots of airflow.



@Silver @saa044 It's not just a case of not feeling well. Apparently if nic salts are vaped at high temperatures, a toxin called benzoic acid is released. 

@saa044 The reason why there are specific devices for nic salts, as the vape shop owner showed you, is that these devices *cannot* go above a certain wattage and, furthermore, the coils for them are always 1.0ohm or higher (never vape nic salts with a sub-ohm coil).

If you want to use your Pico you could be placing yourself at risk if you forget to turn down the wattage and, if you're using commercial coils, I don't know if you get coils for the Pico at 1.0ohm or above. 

Conclusion: If you want to vape nic salts, buy yourself one of those devices which the vape shop owner showed you. If you want something cheaper get an EGO AIO ECO. I've been using one for months already for my nic salts and it's perfect and a few of my friends have bought them too.
(Note: It must be the EGO AIO *ECO)*

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## Spongebob

If possible i would like any and everyone that has or are using nic Salts to share their experiences? Benefits, side effects, etc? 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Crazyj

@Spongebob I quit smoking siggies December 17 using salts.started off on 35mg using the breeze 2 pod.I was a heavy smoker and I was hitting the salts hard and probably way too hard infact.after about a week when going to sleep I had a very weird experience.I would dose off and just as I would fall into a deep sleep I would be woken up by a jump as if someone gave me a heck of a freight.my heart racing and then feel woozy.not sure if this makes any sense.almost a feeling of fainting or passing out.the funny part is it only happened when falling asleep and sometimes when laying down.

Funny you post this now..I was at a vape shop today and spoke to a guy working there and he had the same experience but it happened to him during the day aswell.even when driving.
He went to the Dr and they did blood tests.according to the Dr he had enough nicotine in his blood to last him 3 months.scary stuff!!!

With this being said I'm not sorry I went with the salt nic to get off the siggies.it really helped me.I still carried on using it but just less intake and started dropping to lower strength.for the last 2 days I have not had salts but just took a few hits for that nic fix like 10 minutes ago. (Bit of a headrush)

I've been meaning to start a thread regarding this


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

Nothing kills nicotine cravings better than nic salts. But once u switch to direct lung and enjoy blowing big clouds of flavour, nic salts will be boring. 
I never get the flavour experience from mix salts like I do from my dual coil high wattage devices. 
I use nic salts mostly as my first vape in the morning and after gym when the cravings are the worst. 
I am vaping much more than I used to smoke. I was 6-9 stinkies a day guy. Reason was I never used to smoke inside the house but no such restrictions when it comes to vaping. So some days I switch to 0nic vape and I take a puff or two from my nic salt device when I crave for nic.

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## Lidayz

For me the only thing that kept me off cigarettes was nic salts. I can vape 3-6 mg in an rda all day long and still want cigaretts. But low watts and 35mg nic salts and I am great! Haven't smoked a cigarette in months. The only problem for me is finding nic salt I like and I eventually would like to go down to maybe 12mg freebase nic but that is hard to find in local vape shops by me everything is 3mg to 6 usually. I feel the nic salt kills the flavor of ejuice. For me anyway I dont think it will ever taste as good as reg.

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## Ruwaid

For me it was the throat hit that I craved more than the fix....first throat hit second nic fix. After giving up stinkies moved to the Twisp Cue and it was the next best thing to sliced bread for me being an ex smoker. Then saw the hype train take off with nic salts...I jumped on and stayed on for a bit. Tried nic salts in an RTA, in AIO devices/pods and even lower powered devices like refilling the twisp cue pods. Nothing worked for me personally. I would cough more intensely then when compared to me having a stinkie after doing a sprint. It wasn't immediate but like after the first 4 puffs maybe.

tried everything from wicking to lowering power to different local and international nic salt juice and nada! Nic salts to me will also never just taste great. That chemical taste always lingers somewhere in the inhale or exhale and with less or no throat hit (this is what they are specifically made to do) I wondered, why am I even doing this if throat hit is what I was after. Jumped off the train thereafter and went to 12mg freebase...I am now at 8mg (MTL).

And like @Faiyaz Cheulkar I was also a 10 stinkies a day kinda guy but with vaping, I vape much more. So nic salts wasn't an option for me as I was taking in WAY TOO much nic and that was one of my goals after giving up stinkies, to cut off my dependency on nic completely.

The only way you will know is if you try it!!

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## Andre

Lidayz said:


> For me the only thing that kept me off cigarettes was nic salts. I can vape 3-6 mg in an rda all day long and still want cigaretts. But low watts and 35mg nic salts and I am great! Haven't smoked a cigarette in months. The only problem for me is finding nic salt I like and I eventually would like to go down to maybe 12mg freebase nic but that is hard to find in local vape shops by me everything is 3mg to 6 usually. I feel the nic salt kills the flavor of ejuice. For me anyway I dont think it will ever taste as good as reg.


Yeah, I would probably never have gone the DIY route if the majority of local juice vendors did not stop selling 12/18 mg regular nic juice. Tried nic salts, but hated the chemical taste.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Silver

Spongebob said:


> If possible i would like any and everyone that has or are using nic Salts to share their experiences? Benefits, side effects, etc?
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk



Hi @Spongebob 

Hope you don't mind but I moved your post and the subsequent replies to this existing thread on nic salts. 

Thanks for reviving the topic - and hopefully it will be good to keep all the info in one place for better future reference.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Spongebob

All good @Silver  anyone else experience muscle aches, etc? Keep in mind that i was a 15 a day smoker for 36 years? 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Juan_G

I have smoked 20+ stinkies a day for 20 years. Always got a red pack of whatever brand as i wanted/needed the throat hit and just liked stronger stinkys in general and settled on pall mall red the last 2 years. I have tried countless times to quit smoking and tried the gum, patches, zyban and quit mouth spray and nothing seemed to work. Got myself a mod with a rdta and aspire breeze 2 last year and messed around with nic salt in the breeze and normal juice in the rdta but still continued to smoke the stinkies. Finally set myself a goal to stop smoking before end of Jan 2019 and had my last sig the morning of 10 Jan. I absolutely abused the breeze with nic salt 48mg AND a 0.6ohm coil during the first few days. I never felt sick from the nic and i am making very good progress.

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## Juan_G

I have since sold the breeze and got the nord with the idea of using the 1.4 ohm ceramic coils with lower salt nic but eish the airflow is simply too restricted and the nords airflow is only controlled by what coil your using. So im back to 0.6 mesh salt nic on the nord which is now actually too strong but looking out for the next solution and wont stop using this setup as i dont want to fall back to smoking stinkys. Salt nic has worked for me and i am 1 month without any stinkys.

Sorry for the long post

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Juan_G

I have experienced no muscle cramps or any sort of aches by using the 48mg salt in the 0.6 ohm coils. It does feel a bit heavy on my chest but its still better than smoking stinkys. Only thing i noticed is that i was sleeping all weird, struggled to fall asleep and would wake up a lot during the night during the first 2 weeks.


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## Silver

Congrats on the month of no stinkies @Juan_G 

That is fantastic - what a great achievement!!!!
Vape on and stay strong!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Spongebob

Crazyj said:


> @Spongebob I quit smoking siggies December 17 using salts.started off on 35mg using the breeze 2 pod.I was a heavy smoker and I was hitting the salts hard and probably way too hard infact.after about a week when going to sleep I had a very weird experience.I would dose off and just as I would fall into a deep sleep I would be woken up by a jump as if someone gave me a heck of a freight.my heart racing and then feel woozy.not sure if this makes any sense.almost a feeling of fainting or passing out.the funny part is it only happened when falling asleep and sometimes when laying down.
> 
> Funny you post this now..I was at a vape shop today and spoke to a guy working there and he had the same experience but it happened to him during the day aswell.even when driving.
> He went to the Dr and they did blood tests.according to the Dr he had enough nicotine in his blood to last him 3 months.scary stuff!!!
> 
> With this being said I'm not sorry I went with the salt nic to get off the siggies.it really helped me.I still carried on using it but just less intake and started dropping to lower strength.for the last 2 days I have not had salts but just took a few hits for that nic fix like 10 minutes ago. (Bit of a headrush)
> 
> I've been meaning to start a thread regarding this


@crazyj here is my question regarding the drs findings? From what i understand the body clears out nicotine in abt 2 to 12 hours, so even abusing high strength nic Salts, how does that much nicotine accumulate in the body? 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Spongebob

Juan_G said:


> I have experienced no muscle cramps or any sort of aches by using the 48mg salt in the 0.6 ohm coils. It does feel a bit heavy on my chest but its still better than smoking stinkys. Only thing i noticed is that i was sleeping all weird, struggled to fall asleep and would wake up a lot during the night during the first 2 weeks.


Funny you should mention thati too have been sleeping erratically since switching.... Wonder what causes that

But i am also getting headaches, muscle aches and back pain  but i suppose that could be many other factors 

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## Spongebob

Having said all the above, my view is that nic Salts are a God sent i have been vaping for abt 2 years, with the intention to quit smoking I've done it all, mtl, dtl, pens, box mods, rta's, commercial coils, big clouds, small clouds, you name it, but..... I could never quit so if you told me a year ago, that i would pick up a pod system with Salts and QUIT, i would have rolled on the floor laughing at you

Being a Christian i firmly believe that God answered my prayers this past Sunday to release me from the bondages of stinkiesas i was not even intending to quit, but since the pod and Salts.... I haven't looked back 

Do i abuse the Salts? No, i still take a break every hour at work to vape, but i find 4 to 5 puffs to be more than sufficient to curb the cravingsi am already starting to feel my lungs open up and my health improving 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!! 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Spongebob

Juan_G said:


> I have since sold the breeze and got the nord with the idea of using the 1.4 ohm ceramic coils with lower salt nic but eish the airflow is simply too restricted and the nords airflow is only controlled by what coil your using. So im back to 0.6 mesh salt nic on the nord which is now actually too strong but looking out for the next solution and wont stop using this setup as i dont want to fall back to smoking stinkys. Salt nic has worked for me and i am 1 month without any stinkys.
> 
> Sorry for the long post


You should really try the magic atopacksimply amazing 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Crazyj

Spongebob said:


> @crazyj here is my question regarding the drs findings? From what i understand the body clears out nicotine in abt 2 to 12 hours, so even abusing high strength nic Salts, how does that much nicotine accumulate in the body?
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


@Spongebob I really have no clue when it comes to how long nic stays in your system.maybe it was just the Dr's way of telling him he has alot of nic in his system.to add onto his experience he says he was vaping 50mg nic salts.

I am very happy that I used nic salts to get off stinkies.I smoked 30-40 camel filter/classic a day for 7 years.

I'm busy doing the switch to higher nic freebase mtl.so far so good.I do believe that nic salts should not be used for a long period of time though as I also feel a difference switching to freebase nic from salts.the aches and pains everyone is talking about I'm also familiar with


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## Crazyj

Out of curiosity how many ml of nic salts does everyone go through?let's say in a period of a week?


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## Crazyj

Spongebob said:


> Having said all the above, my view is that nic Salts are a God sent i have been vaping for abt 2 years, with the intention to quit smoking I've done it all, mtl, dtl, pens, box mods, rta's, commercial coils, big clouds, small clouds, you name it, but..... I could never quit so if you told me a year ago, that i would pick up a pod system with Salts and QUIT, i would have rolled on the floor laughing at you
> 
> Being a Christian i firmly believe that God answered my prayers this past Sunday to release me from the bondages of stinkiesas i was not even intending to quit, but since the pod and Salts.... I haven't looked back
> 
> Do i abuse the Salts? No, i still take a break every hour at work to vape, but i find 4 to 5 puffs to be more than sufficient to curb the cravingsi am already starting to feel my lungs open up and my health improving
> 
> That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


@Spongebob I'm so glad to see all the success stories of people getting off the stinkies!!it's something you don't often hear of outside of the vaping community.

2 days after I stopped smoking my life changed as I felt for the first time in a long time what a clear nose and sinus feels like.use to get very tired when smoking stinkies.I now wake up allot easier in the morning and feel alot fresher.can only image the difference after a year off the stinkies!!

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## Spongebob

Crazyj said:


> @Spongebob I really have no clue when it comes to how long nic stays in your system.maybe it was just the Dr's way of telling him he has alot of nic in his system.to add onto his experience he says he was vaping 50mg nic salts.
> 
> I am very happy that I used nic salts to get off stinkies.I smoked 30-40 camel filter/classic a day for 7 years.
> 
> I'm busy doing the switch to higher nic freebase mtl.so far so good.I do believe that nic salts should not be used for a long period of time though as I also feel a difference switching to freebase nic from salts.the aches and pains everyone is talking about I'm also familiar with


Out of curiosity some juice manufacturers label their juices mg/ml, but a vape shop owner told me that with nic salts the amount of nic is per bottle /pod? Any truth to this? I have checked my bottle of salts and nowhere does it state per ml? 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Spongebob

Crazyj said:


> Out of curiosity how many ml of nic salts does everyone go through?let's say in a period of a week?


I bought a 30ml RY4 salts last sunday anf still 3/4 full if that helps 

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## Crazyj

Spongebob said:


> Out of curiosity some juice manufacturers label their juices mg/ml, but a vape shop owner told me that with nic salts the amount of nic is per bottle /pod? Any truth to this? I have checked my bottle of salts and nowhere does it state per ml?
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


@Spongebob I have no idea to be honest.I thought it to be same as freebase.some international nic salts still state the % on their bottles.example:35%/ml witch would mean 35 mg


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## Crazyj

Spongebob said:


> I bought a 30ml RY4 salts last sunday anf still 3/4 full if that helps
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


I finished a 30 ml bottle in 4 days in my siren 2 rta.eish


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

I cant believe what Im reading. This thread is an example why very strict regulations are needed in the vape industry.
And to claim you have stopped smoking and you pumping yourselve with more nic than you could have ever done with cigarettes is even more absurd.


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## Crazyj

@Jean claude Vaaldamme.I don't think you can compare smoking siggies with vaping nic salts or vaping freebase.
Freebase liquid did not get me off stinkies.in fact I ended up smoking and vaping.
I got myself a pod on the 17th of December and 35mg nic salts.I started using it the very same day and I have not touched a stinkies ever since.with the pod that first 30ml bottle lasted me almost 3 weeks.
The 30ml bottle I finished in 4 days was when I switched to mtl rta.it's obvious that an rta is going to consume more than a pod.the flavour was so much better and that's probably what caused me to abuse the nic salts.
In the same breath I just want to add that I would have smoked between 70-80 camel filter/classic in 4 days.so I'm not sure how that woulD be any worse than vaping 20mg nic salts in 4 days.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Crazyj

And just to add I am now vaping on high nic freebase in my mtl.just still trying to find my happy place with regards to a good normal liquid I can bump up the nic on.I'm not gonna pay up to R200 for 20ml bottle of freebase liquid.that would mean I would have to buy 3-5 bottles a week


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Crazyj said:


> @Jean claude Vaaldamme.I don't think you can compare smoking siggies with vaping nic salts or vaping freebase.
> Freebase liquid did not get me off stinkies.in fact I ended up smoking and vaping.
> I got myself a pod on the 17th of December and 35mg nic salts.I started using it the very same day and I have not touched a stinkies ever since.with the pod that first 30ml bottle lasted me almost 3 weeks.
> The 30ml bottle I finished in 4 days was when I switched to mtl rta.it's obvious that an rta is going to consume more than a pod.the flavour was so much better and that's probably what caused me to abuse the nic salts.
> In the same breath I just want to add that I would have smoked between 70-80 camel filter/classic in 4 days.so I'm not sure how that woulD be any worse than vaping 20mg nic salts in 4 days.



I smoked 40+ Stuyvesant filter for more than 20years. Never did I need to go to a doctor, or had any nic attacks or could not sleep. So obviously there is a problem? Regulations are set on products, to keep idiots harming themselves.

A few weeks of cigarettes is great, but does not mean you have kicked the habit, the longer you need this high nic fixes, the further you will be from kicking the habit. Read this forum, many of the regular members that has been vaping for years still smoke or fall back to smoking.
I will put money on it that this sudden nic salts frenzy is tobacco companies boosting it to keep everyone hooked

Everyone may do as he/she pleases, but if you dont stop your addiction, by simply changing its name. Then you still addicted to the same thing and fall back at any time


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## Crazyj

This may all be true yes.if anyone who was a smoker switched to vaping or even thought of switching obviously know that they have an addiction to nicotine.I had my goals set to get off stinkies and I did it using nic salts.I am now going to freebase and will work my way down.
Even on nic salts I felt a millions times better than what I did on stinkies.

I'm happy on my achievement this far as not alot of people even do get this far.


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## Puff the Magic Dragon

Like you @Jean claude Vaaldamme I smoked heavily for many years (35). 

I have never used nic salts and I never will. I do however believe that they have a place in helping people stop smoking. When I quit, over four years ago, I used 18mg nic. That was all that was easily available. Remember that there was no sub-ohming at that time so high nic was needed to satisfy cravings for nic. Over time (enter the Subtank Mini) I decreased nic to 2 to 3 mg. I have never tried to get rid of nic entirely and have no desire to do so. 

I am surprised to hear you say that many members who have been vaping for years still smoke, or go back to smoking. Perhaps this would be an interesting thread in itself.

I am now still addicted to nicotine but not to smoking. I am perfectly at peace with this. I am not addicted to the same thing as I was i.e. smoking. I will never go back to smoking if I can still vape. I would bet the farm (literally) on this (don't tell the wife she owns half of it).

Reactions: Like 2


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## Andre

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> Like you @Jean claude Vaaldamme I smoked heavily for many years (35).
> 
> I have never used nic salts and I never will. I do however believe that they have a place in helping people stop smoking. When I quit, over four years ago, I used 18mg nic. That was all that was easily available. Remember that there was no sub-ohming at that time so high nic was needed to satisfy cravings for nic. Over time (enter the Subtank Mini) I decreased nic to 2 to 3 mg. I have never tried to get rid of nic entirely and have no desire to do so.
> 
> I am surprised to hear you say that many members who have been vaping for years still smoke, or go back to smoking. Perhaps this would be an interesting thread in itself.
> 
> I am now still addicted to nicotine but not to smoking. I am perfectly at peace with this. I am not addicted to the same thing as I was i.e. smoking. I will never go back to smoking if I can still vape. I would bet the farm (literally) on this (don't tell the wife she owns half of it).


Yeah, nic got all the blame, but the real harm lies with tar and some other chemicals. Science has since set the record straight

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Silver

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Read this forum, many of the regular members that has been vaping for years still smoke or fall back to smoking.



Hi @Jean claude Vaaldamme - i hear what you are saying and understand your sentiment

I have been on this forum for a number of years and my sense is that the majority of "regular members" who have been here for a long time have not smoked. I.e. vaping has been able to get them off smoking for a long time.

I genuinely believe that vaping is a great way to get off the stinkies. Last time I had a stinkie was in Oct 2013 and although I still vape I consider it far better than smoking. Furthermore I dont feel the need to vape as often as I felt the need to smoke and I dont get as irritated when I dont vape for several hours like I did when I was a smoker. I havent used nic salts - am on normal nicotine juices. And it has worked very well for me.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Rob Fisher

Like Hi Ho @Silver I have not touched a cigarette for over 5 years and never will!

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Spongebob

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> I smoked 40+ Stuyvesant filter for more than 20years. Never did I need to go to a doctor, or had any nic attacks or could not sleep. So obviously there is a problem? Regulations are set on products, to keep idiots harming themselves.
> 
> A few weeks of cigarettes is great, but does not mean you have kicked the habit, the longer you need this high nic fixes, the further you will be from kicking the habit. Read this forum, many of the regular members that has been vaping for years still smoke or fall back to smoking.
> I will put money on it that this sudden nic salts frenzy is tobacco companies boosting it to keep everyone hooked
> 
> Everyone may do as he/she pleases, but if you dont stop your addiction, by simply changing its name. Then you still addicted to the same thing and fall back at any time


I did not want to nor intend to get involved in an argument about this, but calling people idiots for wanting to, by any and all means, quit a habit that causes one to take in 7000 odd chemicals every time you light up, and then managing to do it by replacing that habit with something that causes ingestion of only four chemicals, albeit in a little higher concentration, does NOT sit well with me....... 

@Crazyj used a 30ml bottle in three weeks and i used one 7ml pod and one Beserker tank in this past week, so let's call it 10ml of 25mg salts for argument sake so at 25mg/ml we took in 250mg of nic over the week.

If i was still smoking this past week, i would have smoked 15 stinkies a day, Chesterfield soft, which means i would have taken in 135mg of tar per day and 945mg over the weekthat's besides the almost identical amount of nic i would have taken in, and not adding the 105000 units, for lack of a better word, per day of other, scientifically proven, highly dangerous chemicals 

Also if you consult Dr google on the side effects of quitting smoking, there is a list as long as my arm, which includes headaches, nausea, vomiting, sleep disturbances, muscle aches, etc etc etc which i suspect has more to do with the body cleansing itself, than anything else

Are there idiots out there that abuse mechanical mods and nic salts, that end up in hospital or the morgue? Yes quite a few i suspect, but i venture a guess that neither me nor @Crazyj or anyone else that quits with salts fall into that category 

So go ahead and call me and idiot again...... but this time make sure you come with the facts........ 


Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Silver

Guys, just cool it over here

*Let's not get into any arguments. What's said has been said - but lets remember the forum rules - play the ball not the man.*

Its great to debate topics but when it starts to get personal its not good and then we have to step in. Please don't let it get to the point that we have arguments flying all over the place and we have to then lock threads. That would be such a shame.


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Spongebob said:


> I did not want to nor intend to get involved in an argument about this, but calling people idiots for wanting to, by any and all means, quit a habit that causes one to take in 7000 odd chemicals every time you light up, and then managing to do it by replacing that habit with something that causes ingestion of only four chemicals, albeit in a little higher concentration, does NOT sit well with me.......
> 
> @Crazyj used a 30ml bottle in three weeks and i used one 7ml pod and one Beserker tank in this past week, so let's call it 10ml of 25mg salts for argument sake so at 25mg/ml we took in 250mg of nic over the week.
> 
> If i was still smoking this past week, i would have smoked 15 stinkies a day, Chesterfield soft, which means i would have taken in 135mg of tar per day and 945mg over the weekthat's besides the almost identical amount of nic i would have taken in, and not adding the 105000 units, for lack of a better word, per day of other, scientifically proven, highly dangerous chemicals
> 
> Also if you consult Dr google on the side effects of quitting smoking, there is a list as long as my arm, which includes headaches, nausea, vomiting, sleep disturbances, muscle aches, etc etc etc which i suspect has more to do with the body cleansing itself, than anything else
> 
> Are there idiots out there that abuse mechanical mods and nic salts, that end up in hospital or the morgue? Yes quite a few i suspect, but i venture a guess that neither me nor @Crazyj or anyone else that quits with salts fall into that category
> 
> So go ahead and call me and idiot again...... but this time make sure you come with the facts........
> 
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


I did not call anyone an idiot. I said regulations are placed to protect idiots from harming themselves. Who stops any idiot from filling an sub ohm tank with 48mg nic? Other guy I know phoned me the other day, because he know I diy, and said he want to mix a few one shots, but could not get nic pg nic so he just bought nic salts. Now if that is so easy that anyone that knows nothing, can just go buy anything that you can harm or even kill yourself with. Then there is a problem.

As for the calculations, there has been many threads here with claims of how deffirent types of nicotine is absorbed into the blood. And some has way more of an effect than others, so maybe read that before the calculations.

An idiot that blew himself up with a mech mod was headlines all over the world, no mention of the other million mech mods that never exploded. Same will go for the idiot that overdsed on nic, there will be no mention f the millions of diyers that know what they doing. Regulations are needed to protect the industry.
Like I said before, never heard of anyone getting a nic overdose from cigarettes. But go read the nic salts threads and tell me there is not a problem. Hell I think I even read somewhere that Silver got his name from to much nic, cant recall if it was nic salts or normal nic.


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Silver said:


> Hi @Jean claude Vaaldamme - i hear what you are saying and understand your sentiment
> 
> I have been on this forum for a number of years and my sense is that the majority of "regular members" who have been here for a long time have not smoked. I.e. vaping has been able to get them off smoking for a long time.
> 
> I genuinely believe that vaping is a great way to get off the stinkies. Last time I had a stinkie was in Oct 2013 and although I still vape I consider it far better than smoking. Furthermore I dont feel the need to vape as often as I felt the need to smoke and I dont get as irritated when I dont vape for several hours like I did when I was a smoker. I havent used nic salts - am on normal nicotine juices. And it has worked very well for me.


 Yes I also believe that vaping is one of the best ways to stop smoking. Look at me, over 40 a day and now almost 4months off it. But that can only work if you want to stop. By just replacing smoking with the same or even more nic, is just a recipe for failure.
What will happen if next month some study proof vaping is really dangerous and it gets banned all over the world. Do you think all vapers that still use nic will be able not to smoke again? So my theory stands, as long as you use nic, you havent kicked the habit. And I include myself there, Im still on 3mg, so cant yet kick the habit and is still addicted, but Im working on that.

As for members. When I joined I was under the impression that if you vape you dont smoke. Over the few months I was actually amazed how many time I see that people that has been members for a few years still smoke a few everyday, or stopped and then started again. Majority? No but I see it often. So again, as long as you addicted, always chance of going back.

Did I know cigarettes are bad for me? Yes, but that was my choice if I wanted to smoke. I did not however made claims that its not as bad as they say. Do I know vaping is healthier? Yes. Is it 100% safe and healthy? No I dont think so. So I wont go and encourage my kids or anyone else to start vaping.

And no Im not trying to start arguments. But surely the other side should be discussed aswell? Surely if sme of these symtoms pops up, alarm bells should go off and the industry or someone should discuss it. Inmean read these nic salt thread, closed chest, struggle breathing, cant sleep, etc etc, nose bleeds. Im sure I even read somewhere someone coughing blood. This is a recipe for a disaster and if Im the only one that think there is a problem, then I must be crazy.


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## Spongebob

@Silver plse delete my post if possibleas i said only my opinion and i will go with what works for meno hard feelings, just felt it needed to be said 

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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## Silver

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Same will go for the idiot that overdsed on nic, there will be no mention f the millions of diyers that know what they doing. Regulations are needed to protect the industry.
> Like I said before, never heard of anyone getting a nic overdose from cigarettes. But go read the nic salts threads and tell me there is not a problem. Hell I think I even read somewhere that Silver got his name from to much nic, cant recall if it was nic salts or normal nic.



I hear what you are saying about overdosing on nic

Not sure about strong nic salts - but for normal nic juices, its extremely unlikely to get a lethal overdose of nic while vaping. If you have too much nic, your body will let you know long before. You start sweating, you get a nauseous feeling and you feel you need to lie down. Its your body's way of saying slow down with that.

If you down a big bottle of 100mg nic, that's a different story - but I'm talking about vaping the juices not drinking it.

As for me and the term Silver - no, I didnt get the name from that - I had the name already - its just that people referred to my name when they have had too much nic - because that's what happened to me several years back at a vape meet. Unpleasant experience but far from lethal. It was normal nic. You can read more about it here:
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/doing-a-silver-what-does-this-mean.t4335/

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## Silver

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Yes I also believe that vaping is one of the best ways to stop smoking. Look at me, over 40 a day and now almost 4months off it. But that can only work if you want to stop. By just replacing smoking with the same or even more nic, is just a recipe for failure.
> What will happen if next month some study proof vaping is really dangerous and it gets banned all over the world. Do you think all vapers that still use nic will be able not to smoke again? So my theory stands, as long as you use nic, you havent kicked the habit. And I include myself there, Im still on 3mg, so cant yet kick the habit and is still addicted, but Im working on that.
> 
> As for members. When I joined I was under the impression that if you vape you dont smoke. Over the few months I was actually amazed how many time I see that people that has been members for a few years still smoke a few everyday, or stopped and then started again. Majority? No but I see it often. So again, as long as you addicted, always chance of going back.
> 
> Did I know cigarettes are bad for me? Yes, but that was my choice if I wanted to smoke. I did not however made claims that its not as bad as they say. Do I know vaping is healthier? Yes. Is it 100% safe and healthy? No I dont think so. So I wont go and encourage my kids or anyone else to start vaping.
> 
> And no Im not trying to start arguments. But surely the other side should be discussed aswell? Surely if sme of these symtoms pops up, alarm bells should go off and the industry or someone should discuss it. Inmean read these nic salt thread, closed chest, struggle breathing, cant sleep, etc etc, nose bleeds. Im sure I even read somewhere someone coughing blood. This is a recipe for a disaster and if Im the only one that think there is a problem, then I must be crazy.



I hear you @Jean claude Vaaldamme and I understand what you are saying.

I do agree that if nic salts get out of hand and people get even more addicted to the nic salts than they were to the smoking then its not a good thing. If people are suffering those symptoms you talk about, that's not good either. But some of the symptoms might also be a byproduct of stopping the stinkies.

I had sleep disturbances and a bit of phlegm on the chest initially - when I switched to vaping. But I understand that was the system undoing the years of being used to the smoking and the chemicals in the cigarettes.

It does seem that a few people have used nic salts to initially get off the stinkies and then convert to normal nicotine later. That does sound like a good path for those who can't kick the stinkies with normal nic. Better that I suppose than just remaining a smoker.

I dont use nic salts but that's mainly because when I tried them a few times I got little to no throat hit. And I like my throat hit.

I do worry what will come next though. Some other additives in vaping juice to enhance the nic hit. Or even other substances to make you feel better.

I think where we are with the *normal nic juices* is fairly well understood and quite well researched already. Most scientific research seems to suggest that vaping in this way is an order of magnitude safer than smoking. Yes, not 100% safe but much, much safer. Not just a little bit safer. There is still more research that needs to be done on inhaling the different flavour compounds, which were meant for ingestion not inhaling - but I will take what I currently know and the way I feel and will be happy about it.

I do agree that we need to discuss all these things from all angles. And that is one of the reasons I started this thread. To find out what other people's experiences are with nic salts.


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## Silver

Spongebob said:


> @Silver plse delete my post if possibleas i said only my opinion and i will go with what works for meno hard feelings, just felt it needed to be said
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk



No need to delete it @Spongebob - you said what you said because you felt it needed to be said. 
If you want to you can edit your post or delete it yourself. 

But lets just move on and continue the discussions


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## stevie g

Yay if they don't contain benzoic acid.

Another Yay if they use organic acids!


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## stevie g

incredible_hullk said:


> My experience with nic salts has been constant coughing even at the 20-25 mg range which is the lowest I believe
> 
> Too much for me with a very tight chest feeling
> 
> Taste - I get a prominent chemical, acidic taste which put me off


typically reminiscent of chlorine, these are benzoic based salts


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## stevie g

Rob Fisher said:


> I joke and say that Nic Salts is the "Devils work"! But seriously I think they are bad news and just another way of addicting people to Nicotine. I concede that there is a place for Nic Salts, especially when converting a smoker but I think high nic normal juice is a better option and worked for most of us.


nic salts derived from acids other than benzoic can be helpful in satiating nic crave with less side effects.


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## stevie g

Carnival said:


> I believe they have their place, even though I definitely think there’s a risk of becoming more dependent on nicotine when using nic salts. For me at the moment, I take a few puffs here and there in between vaping free base and it helps curb the cravings for a stinkie. I’m giving myself a week from today, using nic salts, and after that I want to stick to free base. I’d rather not use nic salts long term.


traditional nicotine eliquid is great though I struggle with heavy chest when on 3mg and 6mg is too harsh for me.


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## stevie g

RichJB said:


> For me, it depends on whether you want to quit or switch. If you want to quit nicotine addiction, nic salts would be a terrible way to go about it. If you are content to remain addicted to nic but just want to reduce the harms from combustible tobacco, nic salts are fine. I'm trying to quit addiction so I'll never use nic salts or own a pod. Undoing the progress I've made over the past three years would just be crazy.
> 
> That said, I'm not complacent enough to assume that it will stop at nic salts. The industry has financial incentive to make its products as addictive as possible. With salts, they were at least open and honest about the high nic levels so I knew to avoid it. The problem is going to arise when they start slipping 'additives' into nic without telling anyone. And it's going to happen, you can bet your house on it. JUUL went from a start-up to a $10bn company in a matter of a few years, based primarily on cramming as much nic as they possibly could into every puff. Others will want to emulate that success and up the ante further. Doing it without the user even realising how much nic they're inhaling would be a sly way to go about it. So I'm very wary indeed, and keeping an eye on all juice testing studies for signs of new chemicals that weren't in vapour before.


 Quitting cigarettes for nic salts would be a win either way. Benzoic acid issues two carcinogenic markers at temp over 220 Celsius, much less than cigarettes.

Addiction is human nature so we need to choose what we become addicted to. 

The industry (market) goes where it will. Some companies do put out bad products and it's our responsibility to hold them to account.


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## JurgensSt

Tried nic salts for the first time this weekend ...... not sure why people will want to use nic salt

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Spongebob

JurgensSt said:


> Tried nic salts for the first time this weekend ...... not sure why people will want to use nic salt


Why

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## JurgensSt

Spongebob said:


> Why
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


To strong. Two Puffs and my head started spinning.

I'm a weakling 

Send from the small screen

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Spongebob

Then i must be He-man i vape 25mg salts all day long

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## Kalashnikov

Haven't read through the entire thread but I just picked up a pod device . and I was having a look at some nic salt juices . could someone justify what makes a 30ml nic salt cost the same price as any other 100ml 12mg nicotine juice , I just don't get why they cost so much?

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## Dela Rey Steyn

Kalashnikov said:


> Haven't read through the entire thread but I just picked up a pod device . and I was having a look at some nic salt juices . could someone justify what makes a 30ml nic salt cost the same price as any other 100ml 12mg nicotine juice , I just don't get why they cost so much?



I think it would come down to quantity of materials used, as most 50/50 PG/VG mixes made for MTL vaping uses higher percentages Flavour Concentrates and more Nicotine (either Freebase or Salts)


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## Ruwaid

Kalashnikov said:


> Haven't read through the entire thread but I just picked up a pod device . and I was having a look at some nic salt juices . could someone justify what makes a 30ml nic salt cost the same price as any other 100ml 12mg nicotine juice , I just don't get why they cost so much?


sent you a text bud! Got something for you! @Kalashnikov

Reactions: Thanks 1


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