# 100% ban on public smoking incl. vaping



## Feliks Karp (12/11/17)

https://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/sparks-fly-at-100-ban-on-smoking-plan-11960674

"
One hundred percent smoke-free public spaces. The removal of smoking areas in restaurants and clubs. *Totally uniform packaging for all cigarette and vape brands, adorned with warnings and pictures of diseased organs. *

The removal of all smoking advertisements, including for e-cigarettes and vapes.

These are the key propositions by Health Minister Aaron Motsoaledi as his department fights to amend the Tobacco Products Control Amendment Act in a bid to lower smoking rates countrywide. "

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2


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## Clouds4Days (12/11/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> https://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/sparks-fly-at-100-ban-on-smoking-plan-11960674
> 
> "
> One hundred percent smoke-free public spaces. The removal of smoking areas in restaurants and clubs. *Totally uniform packaging for all cigarette and vape brands, adorned with warnings and pictures of diseased organs. *
> ...



Its what they should have done years ago.
I know vaping is safer than smoking but i dont see any reason why vaping should get special treatment as it too is not 100% safe.
Thanks for the post @Feliks Karp

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## NickT (12/11/17)

I have absolute faith in the unscrupulousness of the big tobacco companies and the easily lined pockets of our rubber armed politicians for this never to happen.

Reactions: Agree 6 | Funny 4 | Can relate 1


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## RichJB (12/11/17)

I can't see the point of plain packaging on vape hardware products. Smokers carry around the pack of cigarettes with them so the health warnings serve as a constant reminder and the attractive colour scheme imprints the brand in their consciousness. Who carries around the box that their mod or atty came in?? I have in any case bought clone atties in plain brown boxes or silver tins so there is a degree of plain packaging anyway. Do I think less of my Hadaly clone because it came in a plain brown box? Not really, it's irrelevant to me. It would make more sense for them to ban LED lights and other visual attractions of mods and atties, and to make everything plain black or silver. 

I think plain packaging will have an impact on juice products as it doesn't allow juice-makers to use attractive labels. If every brand is represented by a plain white label and you have to read the lettering to know which brand and flavour of juice it is, it takes away juice manufacturers' ability to differentiate their product. Seeing as vapers carry bottles of juice around with them, it would also affect the impact of branding on their consciousness.

I think it will kill DIY stone dead. Can you imagine having to buy concentrates where it's just a plain vendor label and you have to read the wording to know which brand and flavour it is?!?  Oh, wait...

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 13


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## Roodt (12/11/17)

I am going to be brutally honest here, all these years people have been smoking and drinking, there has been many a campaign to stop this, even prohibition in the US, all of which has always been unsuccessful. 
It is human nature to become addicted to substance abuse, and that will never change, no matter the legislation in place.
Rather educate people on the associated risks and legalise all substances, and let each human being utilize his or her freedom of choice in the matter.
These nanny states need to come to an end.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## gertvanjoe (12/11/17)

Roodt said:


> I am going to be brutally honest here, all these years people have been smoking and drinking, there has been many a campaign to stop this, even prohibition in the US, all of which has always been unsuccessful.
> It is human nature to become addicted to substance abuse, and that will never change, no matter the legislation in place.
> Rather educate people on the associated risks and legalise *all substances*, and let each human being utilize his or her freedom of choice in the matter.
> These nanny states need to come to an end.



All like in meth and crack all? Although I believe people should have a great degree of freedom to do what they want ( and we pretty much have here in sunny SA, that statement can become a slippery slope quickly. If it is not going to affect me IN ANY WAY, sure let them tikheads be. The problem is, them tikhead just want to do only tik, and will do ANYTHING for their next fix, so it's not going to be like they go to their dayjob, and in the evening do some tik .Yes, in the beginning it will all be nice and dandy till they can't afford their new hobby anymore and start stealing from you and me and lose their job down the line then it only gets worse.


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## Roodt (12/11/17)

gertvanjoe said:


> All like in meth and crack all? Although I believe people should have a great degree of freedom to do what they want ( and we pretty much have here in sunny SA, that statement can become a slippery slope quickly. If it is not going to affect me IN ANY WAY, sure let them tikheads be. The problem is, them tikhead just want to do only tik, and will do ANYTHING for their next fix, so it's not going to be like they go to their dayjob, and in the evening do some tik .Yes, in the beginning it will all be nice and dandy till they can't afford their new hobby anymore and start stealing from you and me and lose their job down the line then it only gets worse.



Luckily the life expectancy of a tik head isn't that long...


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## Feliks Karp (12/11/17)

gertvanjoe said:


> The problem is, them tikhead just want to do only tik, and will do ANYTHING for their next fix, so it's not going to be like they go to their dayjob, and in the evening do some tik .



We make choices every day that are as dangerous as "hard drugs" they just aren't as visceral so we choose to under weigh them, hell I'd argue that the way we consume sugar by the bucket full is just as bad overall as crystal meth, we allow people to buy huge fuel guzzling monsters with only their wallet as the controlling factor, coming from an engineering background - your hair would fall out if you knew what the mines pooped in to the air in pursuit of the minerals you utilize everyday. The argument over what I should allow in my body in order to flush my brain down the toilet is complex, although I do agree that we shouldn't allow meth-heads to run rampant, we pretty much revere drinking culture incl. drunk driving in this country anyways, where is the line?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RichJB (12/11/17)

One of the big arguments for legalisation is that it drives prices down. The reason why there is so much theft to fund drug addiction is because street prices are driven up by it being banned. While cocaine was legal in the US (years back), it retailed for the same price per gram as aspirin. It is not expensive to make. It becomes expensive because it is illegal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## gertvanjoe (12/11/17)

RichJB said:


> One of the big arguments for legalisation is that it drives prices down. The reason why there is so much theft to fund drug addiction is because street prices are driven up by it being banned. While cocaine was legal in the US (years back), it retailed for the same price per gram as aspirin. It is not expensive to make. It becomes expensive because it is illegal.



Ok, now it is legal. Will big pharma touch it. No, because there will be an outcry amongst their investors due do social responsibility. Hence it will still be produced in private labs disconnected from big corps, or at the very least funded under the table.

Let's say its private labs, with people picketed at its front door every day because they are destroying lives. How long will they be public before they go underground, legal yet secretive with a sporadic supply chain, skyrocketing prices and reproducing the situation of now. Sure you can buy it anywhere, but large retailers shun away due to the fact that it will tarnish their image. Hence you get private dealers, who do shady things and cut it with sugar or whatever to up their profit, since who the heck is going to audit me anyway. Cash deals evade taxes. Even if they sell pure, the fact that he has to keep dodging social bullets will also drive him into hiding.

Yeah it is now legal on the books and nobody is none the wiser.

Pot and shrooms are one thing, but hard drugs will never be a viable legal model IMHO

Sidenote: Yes it was legal and no one cared that time. It was also perfectly ok to have a policy preventing an ethnic group entrance into certain facilities. People change.


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## gertvanjoe (12/11/17)

Not that I am am an expert on drugs, but imagine the scenario. Some idiot on a legal trip decided to take a quick drive to the grocer, he is tripping balls and driving around a 1 ton killer mahine. I do agree that it is not much unlike some drunk doing the same, but now their is 20 different ways to be dangerous on the road and not just one.


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## gertvanjoe (12/11/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> We make choices every day that are as dangerous as "hard drugs" they just aren't as visceral so we choose to under weigh them, hell I'd argue that the way we consume sugar by the bucket full is just as bad overall as crystal meth, we allow people to buy huge fuel guzzling monsters with only their wallet as the controlling factor, coming from an engineering background - your hair would fall out if you knew what the mines pooped in to the air in pursuit of the minerals you utilize everyday. The argument over what I should allow in my body in order to flush my brain down the toilet is complex, although I do agree that we shouldn't allow meth-heads to run rampant, we pretty much revere drinking culture incl. drunk driving in this country anyways, where is the line?



Good point. Things like sugar does affect me, but indirectly in the long run. The line, for me at least, is substances that will drive a person towards crime to access it. Money is one of them , that element will always be with is. Sugar is not, unless you are commiting grocery theft because you are so damn hungry you just don't care anymore. Most people have a sense of responsibility to not do crime, but certain substances breaks that down and turns people against themselves. Alcohol is one of them, but fortunately it is not as addictive to everyone. What I have heard, one shot of herion and your brain is rewired and you are hooked in most cases.


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## Huffapuff (12/11/17)

Just look at how positive an impact legalizing certain drugs has had in countries like the Netherlands. Drop in crime, drop in abuse levels, drop in addiction. If you really want to stop the negative effects of drug abuse you'd follow that example. Legalizing it takes it out of the hands of criminal elements plus allows for effective treatment and support for those being effected by it for the worse.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sash (12/11/17)

IMO, It is business at the end of the day. Vaping is growing and tobacco companies are starting to feel the pinch. These days I am starting to see more people vaping rather than smoking. The article states that "However, in March, when plain-packaging legislation was suggested to the company, it threatened to shut down operations in South Africa." which apparently threatened the South African branch's viability as apparently stated by the company's HOD of external affairs. Why lose a large amount of tax income(tobacco industry) over a small amount of tax income(vape industry)?

Again IMO, it threatened the operations but it didn't close yet. The vape industry in South Africa is trying to self regulate but I do not see that helping in terms of getting the nod from government because I think that tobacco companies simply do not want the vape industry to develop. They want the pie to themselves and that is business. It is a global mentality and I agree with @NickT .

That being said, freedom of choice is being taken away and you got a few people trying to gain some popularity in government.
Apologies if anyone finds my comment offensive.


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## CharlieSierra (12/11/17)

I laughed when I read "in a developing country" ..


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## kev mac (13/11/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> https://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/sparks-fly-at-100-ban-on-smoking-plan-11960674
> 
> "
> One hundred percent smoke-free public spaces. The removal of smoking areas in restaurants and clubs. *Totally uniform packaging for all cigarette and vape brands, adorned with warnings and pictures of diseased organs. *
> ...


This is so ridiculous, if they're so health concerned vapeing should be allowed one would think.


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## Feliks Karp (13/11/17)

gertvanjoe said:


> Ok, now it is legal. Will big pharma touch it. No, because there will be an outcry amongst their investors due do social responsibility.





gertvanjoe said:


> What I have heard, one shot of herion and your brain is rewired and you are hooked in most cases.



Firstly big pharma touches lots of hard drugs, the active substance in "Tik"/"Meth" is in a huge array of medications (mostly flu/cold/respiratory), it's where a lot of street level meth labs derive it from. The heroin statement is erroneous, as once again the same active compounds are used in many medications, I've had morphine for extreme pain and I'm not an opioid addict now. I am not disagreeing fully with you, it is complex, but it demonstrates my point on how people are basing their grading on how visceral the effects are. If I cannot be educated on the possible issues of one substance use and make a choice on whether to use it or not, than the government has full right to take away my smoking/vaping choices too, it's a slippery slope in the other direction too.



gertvanjoe said:


> Sugar is not, unless you are commiting grocery theft because you are so damn hungry you just don't care anymore.



Again this is the visceral effects argument, health related deaths start to accelerate economic decline, less jobs more crime. *Everything* you do has impact on those around you.


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## Scissorhands (13/11/17)

Interesting read, solid comments, fair arguments 

I do like the idea of cleaning up public areas but I have a suspicion this will have the opposite effect

Someone mentioned the drug trade, same with the probation of alcohol (it amazes me how many self righteous people refuse to see alcohol as a drug) . . . hell,for years smokers could be fined/prosecuted for smoking outside malls, airports, school and most public spaces . . . But most smokers blatantly ignore this, I did, the risk is worth it, less smoking areas will increase the amount of smokers forced to smoke in these areas wich increases exposure to children and teens (potential future smokers)

The plain packaging, ghastly images and sin tax aren't new ideas, and have been less than effective on current smokers
though it helps discourage potential future smokers

Sometimes I wonder if anyone involved in these decisions are/were smokers/users, it seems they dont understand addiction 

Its easy to criticize, let's see what happens


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## Feliks Karp (13/11/17)

Scissorhands said:


> Sometimes I wonder if anyone involved in these decisions are/were smokers/users, it seems they dont understand addiction



If they are they will probably have private smoking rooms in their offices. Politicians are barely human, the only ones that make it to any seat of position to make these kinds of choices are reprobate sociopaths with the integrity of a diseased jelly-fish. Policy making is and always will be either populist or profit based.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Useful 1


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## Esheli (13/11/17)

We have many laws in effect, most of which are good, however it is the enforcement that is severely lacking. I am keen to see how they plan to do this, as the industry has a wide manufacturing and distribution base.
Chances are they will go for the big players and soft targets.
Perhaps greater effort should be made on solving the other problems such as crime, corruption, job creation, health services and such like.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raindance (13/11/17)

As populations go, we are very quick to defend our rights and freedoms. Unfortunatly we are seldom that vocal when it comes to the responsibilities that underline thses rights. Sure we want the freedom of choice but when the budgie hits the fan McDonalds gets sued for selling me what i asked for. Although I am pro choice and anti nanny state, I fear we need to accept the fact that the general populace is just to immature to be left to play on their own without adult supervision. The crowning twist in the tail is however that in a political democracy the supervision is selected from before mentioned population based on popularist vote. The result can only ever be a trainwreck but rest assured, natural selection will prevail in the end. Just seriously doubting if humanity is going to make it.

Cheers, have a great day!

Reactions: Can relate 1


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## Timwis (13/11/17)

Governments world wide should be encouraging smokers to stop and vaping has been a revelation in helping smokers stop so treating the two as equals is narrow minded and potentially damaging to the potential of smokers quitting.


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## Adephi (13/11/17)

Vaping is a bit of a confusing point for our government. Its not really using tabacco but eish, its still smoking. And they need to tax it somehow. So expect sintax to include vaping in some form or another. Just dont know where they going to draw the line.

As for the last few paragraphs in the article, if BAT closes their farms in the country it will lead to huge amounts of job losses as well as foreign income. They really need to think this one through properly.


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## Timwis (13/11/17)

Adephi said:


> Vaping is a bit of a confusing point for our government. Its not really using tabacco but eish, its still smoking. And they need to tax it somehow. So expect sintax to include vaping in some form or another. Just dont know where they going to draw the line.
> 
> As for the last few paragraphs in the article, if BAT closes their farms in the country it will lead to huge amounts of job losses as well as foreign income. They really need to think this one through properly.


Yes it's potential for tax if you look at how the UK conservative MEP's voted it was 29 against the TPD coming into force and only one in favor, yet it was the UK government that added the 2ml max tank part to it once they knew however they voted most other European MEP's where in favor so the TPD would come into force. On top of that despite our government being against it they enforced it fully while other member states picked which bits they wanted to enforce. The only logic to this is so there is more to relax and get rid of when Brexit comes into force as a way of burying bad news. They will relax the rules at the same time as heavily taxing vaping products.


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## Resistance (20/12/17)

hi.
I had a nice post written out about everything else that is wrong then I figured it isn't worth it.they will do what they want to.if not now they will get that particular judge that will pass the bill.
what we need to do is spread awareness.we need to do the polls.we need to should w them how many people quit smoking and changed to vaping.we need to gather the threads and posts on vaping safety and how nobody can really claim that it is harmful.and when they try and enforce their bill,
we need to slap them awake the ignorant people that they are


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## Room Fogger (20/12/17)

I was a heavy smoker, I now vape. Better for me, yes! Better for those around me, imo yes! Totally harmless, not sure yet, time will tell but definitely better than me smoking looking at research coming out.

Nannying by government is not needed. It is no use making new laws to be popular and to be seen doing something, but not enforcing even those that were there already, which would have been equally effective. Vaping is not smoking, and is a tool that can be used to assist with the scourge. Are they seeing a new tax opportunity, most definitely yes. 

I sometimes thing that ministers just want their names attached to some type of document in an attempt to justify them being there. By all means regulate, it is already taxed, but talk to people in the know and look at the research, don't just forge along because you are too narrow minded to get at least some facts.

If they really "cared" about shielding us from everything harmful, they would need to ban cars, drinking, driving, sex, power stations, garages, tools hammers, knives. The list is endless, are they really seriously thinking this through.......


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## Hooked (20/12/17)

"One hundred percent smoke-free public spaces."
I agree with smoke-free. As far as vapour-free is concerned, it depends on the "public place" Ban vaping in a mall by all means, but there's no harm in vaping on the beach or in a park.

"The removal of smoking areas in restaurants and clubs."
Yes, remove smoking areas - have vaping areas instead.

"Totally uniform packaging for all cigarette and vape brands,* "*
Firstly, I don't see the point of that. If you are a loyal to a particular brand, you will buy it, even if it just has a plain label on the bottle. It's what inside that counts - not the packaging. Secondly, instead of spending/wasting money on fancy labels/packaging, vendors and manufacturers could decrease their retail prices. 

"adorned with warnings and pictures of diseased organs." 
Firstly, does this stop smokers from buying cigs? No. Secondly, as far as vaping is concerned, I agree with "warnings" but the only warning that I can think of is sensitivity to VG or PG. Thirdly, for vaping there are no diseased organs - not that we know of now, at any rate!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Raindance (20/12/17)

What about a 100% ban on public drinking? All beverage containers adorned with graphics of obese people, tooth decay and vehicle accidents. Uniform packaging for al beverages and age restrictions should also apply. After all, vaping is to smoking as pasturised milk is to tequila. We have to be consistent don't we?

Regards

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Daniel (20/12/17)

Lot's of comments and legal terms and big words used , fact of the matter is if WE as the vaping community don't tell our local municipality or elected official we do not stand for this and they will lose a vote if this is passed then maybe they will wake up and smell the vapor  your vote counts for something hopefully ...... what happened to the poll/petition where everyone could add their 2c of how vaping saved their life can't seem to find it ?

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## DaveH (20/12/17)

All we need is a mixture that produces an invisible vapour. 

Dave

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Creative 1


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## Silver (20/12/17)

Daniel said:


> Lot's of comments and legal terms and big words used , fact of the matter is if WE as the vaping community don't tell our local municipality or elected official we do not stand for this and they will lose a vote if this is passed then maybe they will wake up and smell the vapor  your vote counts for something hopefully ...... what happened to the poll/petition where everyone could add their 2c of how vaping saved their life can't seem to find it ?



Hi @Daniel 
That thread you were looking for is here:
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/nb-stand-up-for-our-right-to-vape.t44295/


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## Hooked (20/12/17)

Daniel said:


> Lot's of comments and legal terms and big words used , fact of the matter is if WE as the vaping community don't tell our local municipality or elected official we do not stand for this and they will lose a vote if this is passed then maybe they will wake up and smell the vapor  your vote counts for something hopefully ...... what happened to the poll/petition where everyone could add their 2c of how vaping saved their life can't seem to find it ?



@Daniel Here's the link to "sign" the petition
http://vpasa.org.za/index.php/2017/11/02/vapers-south-africa-time-make-voices-heard/


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