# What makes High-End... High-End? Part 2



## Takie

There has been a lot of talk around justification of High-End (HE) atomizers. While the comments and feedback that I have seen have been constructive a lot of them are inaccurate and based on a lot of speculation. While I do believe that so long as the atomizer satisfies a Vapers needs, surely the question that needs to be asked is "Can it get any better?"

The answer is YES!

While I do agree with most that some of the prices are rather high and a lot of money to dish out for some stainless steel, insulation and what not, one needs to look at the whole concept a bit closer. In this part of my deep dive into HE I am going to be looking at RDAs first as this is probably the most basic concept and easiest to understand.

So with any dripper I would expect the following:

A typical RDA
The Deck
A positive and negative post - Sometimes a 2 post, 3 post or 4 post.
Some form of being able to hold my coil down i.e. grubs or clamps
Insulation material to separate the conductivity between my positive and negative posts.
Airflow to channel my air to my coils on some decks, some do not have this as they rely on the cap to do this for us.

The Cap
The Drip Tip or Chuff - sometimes the Cap and DripTip are integrated into one.
510 pin

For the purpose of my explanation I will use the Psyclone Hadaly as the case study.




So the basic principle is that I will insert my coil between the two posts and from there by passing current through the atomizer I have a resistance in the coil that energy builds up and by physics (Newtons Laws) I have a release of energy. Simple enough!

So now if I take a step back, surely an RDA that costs R500 compared to R1500 should not be that much different other than the "style" of vaping I have? This can also be said that surely a clone is just as good as an authentic RDA right? This in fact is completely wrong.

Firstly lets put to bed the whole clone story. A clone yes can be a replica in look of an RDA however one needs to consider the following facts. The chances of the clone being of the same metallurgical composition and properties is out the window. This means that the design of the RDA that factors things like HEAT TRANSFER are completely set out of balance. Why this is important you ask? Well it is very simple. Although the irony is that we heat a coil to produce vaper, the actual cap and deck heating to a high temperature has an impact on the vaper production, quality of flavor and efficiency and demand I have on my mod - SO heat on my DECK is a NO,NO. The materials used in HE RDAs are used to keep the unit as cool as possible and to also dissipate heat as quickly as possible. This is the first thing that is factored when an RDA is made. You would be shocked how many HE modders claim a "majority" stainless steel 316L base but in fact have added "unnamed" additional materials into the composition to enhance heat transfer physics. I bet that has got your mind thinking already?
That is one of the many reasons clones are plain and simply crap! Should there be a need for me to go into more detail about this - I will do so if asked.

Right!

Let us now look at a normal commercial RDA vs that of a HE RDA.

The first thing I need to tell you is that the price does not always determine if an atomizer is HE or not. Let us look at the DotMod Petri v1.2 that costs R1500 vs the Psyclone Hadaly RDA that costs R1100. The Petri is not considered HE while the Hadaly is. Why is this you may ask? Let us jump into it.

*Airflow, Airflow, Airflow! *

So one of the things that is found in HE RDAs is airflow, airflow, airflow. Why is this important? Well the most basic way to explain it is as follows, the more air to vaper production I have the more cloud I produce at the compromise of flavor. The more vaper to air production I have the less cloud I have but the more flavor I produce. If you can understand this simple ideology you will then understand why flavor RDAs are 22mm in size and cloud RDAs are 24mm+.

The next thing I need to consider is that the cooler I can keep my coils the more flavor I can produce. Why is this? Well it is because when my coil overheats the juices molecular structure begins to breakdown at a rate that a) the concentrates within the juice breakdown and vaporize incorrectly b) VG beings to separate from PG causing inconsistent vaper production. Need proof? Get yourself a chocolate flavored juice - Mr Hardwicks Chocolate whip (fantastic juice BTW). Vape it at a low wattage vs a high wattage. You will notice that at a high wattage the chocolate flavor is not as great as at a low wattage. This is not because the juice has an issue what so ever. It is because the chocolate concentrate is very sensitive to heat! I am sure a lot of juice makers will even tell you that when mixing their juice at a temperature that certain concentrates cannot be added until the juice is cooler. The same principle applies when vaporizing your juice within your RDA.

How I direct the airflow onto my coils is also important, this is where HE shines. Most of the modders that design and engineer their RDAs spend MONTHS testing their designs and making sure that the airflow is hitting the coil correctly. Lets look at the Hadaly for example:




Mac is a very good friend and actually took his RDA to a fluid dynamics engineer to get the physics of how the airflow would hit his coil. The flow above shows exactly what makes this RDA HE. The other thing you will notice is the laminar flow of the air (this is basically how much turbulence or lack there of I have with the airflow transferring onto the coil and out through the mouthpiece.

You will probably not be surprised then to know that most commercial RDAs take their designs from the HE designs and try to achieve the same result (even though not possible) as the HE RDAs. The question you then ask is why are they not similar? Well this comes down to the fact that these RDAs require very special CNC machines to get the correct angles and dimensions where commercial RDAs are mass produced and cannot have a single piece sitting on a CNC for 30min. HE is all about perfection and getting the most out of a coil.

The next thing we need to look at is the conductivity of electrical current from our mod into the RDA from the flow of electrical direction being positive to negative. The metallurgical properties of how the conductivity impacts the voltage drop the RDA itself has on the overall circuit. The less drop I have the more responsive my RDA will be. It is not just about what type of coil you build and material you have (even though yes it does play a part in the bigger picture).

We also need to look at how I hold our coils in place, that design is always unique within the HE space, why you may ask? Well where vaping has evolved to, modders need to take into consideration all types of coils but also at the same same minimize resistance fluctuations. Remember where I spoke about heat transfer, well lets look at that a bit further, remember we have said that heat is BAD! Well if you look at physics 101, the hotter something gets the more my base resistance will increase.

The cap of your RDA when it comes to HE. You might see that some RDAs have fins on them, I promise you this is not only to make the cap look cool but to help the heat dissipation factors. Further to that the design of a cap is there to make the airflow as laminar as possible so that when I inhale vapor I am getting as much vapor off the coils as possible. In addition to this most flavor designs are there to get our mouths as close as possible to the coil so that we can extract as much flavor as possible.

There is a lot more I could go into but I think that is enough food for though for now... I hope it helps show how much goes into an HE RDA and how commercial RDAs are influenced.

End of Part 2...

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 11 | Informative 12


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## Keyaam

Nice write up @Takie 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## E.T.

So the hadaly is considered HE?


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## Rob Fisher

E.T. said:


> So the hadaly is considered HE?



Yebo.


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## E.T.

Rob Fisher said:


> Yebo.


He he jipee I have some HE gear

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Rob Fisher

E.T. said:


> He he jipee I have some HE gear



And how much do you love your Hadaly? Are you running it as a dripper or BF?


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## E.T.

Rob Fisher said:


> And how much do you love your Hadaly? Are you running it as a dripper or BF?


Bf on my reo. At 0.6ohm the vape is a bit hot and the bugger whistles but the flavor is great


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## E.T.

I hate the whistle though


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## Takie

E.T. said:


> I hate the whistle though



There is a very simple fix, if you goto Uncle @Rob Fisher post on the Hadaly you will see the instructions to fix it . I think you in changing your pin to a BF misaligned the insulator and positive post to deck.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Silver

Thanks @Takie for the write up
Always interesting to read and you have certainly given me lots of food for thought

I dont have any really high end gear but i have noticed that on some commercial devices, it just seems everything is right - the air mix with the flavour concentration - and it all feels great. While with other devices it just feels off. I get the feeling that on some commercial devices the manufacturers may have got it right by chance - and future versions are not quite the same.

Looking forward to hearing more!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Takie

Silver said:


> Thanks @Takie for the write up
> Always interesting to read and you have certainly given me lots of food for thought
> 
> I dont have any really high end gear but i have noticed that on some commercial devices, it just seems everything is right - the air mix with the flavour concentration - and it all feels great. While with other devices it just feels off. I get the feeling that on some commercial devices the manufacturers may have got it right by chance - and future versions are not quite the same.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing more!



Thank you for allowing me to post on your forums @Silver. 

Can I be very honest with you. I know you are a bit skeptical about HE and how it works. Why not do what Uncle @Rob Fisher did and bite the bullet and buy one. Yes I know it might be 3x the price of a normal atty but I promise you, you won't regret it. I even think Uncle @Rob Fisher has 20,000 Hussars coming in. LOL!

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Silver

Thanks @Takie

I am not skeptical and would love to try something out. 

Will do - am just going to try figure out what to try first

Reactions: Like 2


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## Andre

E.T. said:


> Bf on my reo. At 0.6ohm the vape is a bit hot and the bugger whistles but the flavor is great


Strange, one of mine is also BF on a Reo without any whistling. And at 0.5 ohm it is not hot at all.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## E.T.

Andre said:


> Strange, one of mine is also BF on a Reo without any whistling. And at 0.5 ohm it is not hot at all.


I presume there is something wrong with my build. Or as @Takie suggested maybe is did something wrong when i put in the bf pin. The whistling i have no clue what the issue is but the flavour is great so at this stage its a trade off


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## Huffapuff

I find that if my draw is too strong I can get a whistle. A longer, gradual draw produces a lovely swooshing full of flavour 

I haven't had any heat issues, but I seldom run above 35 watts.


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## Takie

There should be no whistle from the Hadaly.


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## Huffapuff

Takie said:


> There should be no whistle from the Hadaly.



Uh, maybe it's just me. 

But I'm curious as to how the Hadaly qualifies as high end. Sure it's well designed and produces excellent flavour, but if that's all that's required to be high end then there's a lot more high end gear out there. 

It's mass produced in China, easily available from mainstream retailers (even a couple here in SA) and is well priced for the quality it provides. It also comes with it's own problems - like the cap is seriously stiff to take off and put on and many have removed an O-ring to make this easier. 

As much as I love my Hadaly, I don't consider it high end. High quality yes, but not high end.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ashley A

E.T. said:


> Bf on my reo. At 0.6ohm the vape is a bit hot and the bugger whistles but the flavor is great


I'm sure it's whistling to attract attention so everyone can see it's HE

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Ashley A

Is there a TLDR on this?

All I can say is price, quality and perception are all different things. As much as we'd like to think they are linked and they would be in a perfect world, experience has proven time and time again that they are not.

I mean there's a loooong write up this things that's high-end and then a few actual owners that get's a whistling sound from it and another that is getting too hot at 0.6ohms???? I'm sure I saw something about special materials that aid heat dissipation in that article but I'm a lot more sure that many more any-end and the middle atties don't whistle annoyingly or get to hot at a measly 0.6ohms.

Not fighting with the OP here, especially since I can't manage to read the whole article but I want to point out that it is one view really and this is another.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Anneries

Huffapuff said:


> But I'm curious as to how the Hadaly qualifies as high end. Sure it's well designed and produces excellent flavour, but if that's all that's required to be high end then there's a lot more high end gear out there.
> 
> It's mass produced in China, easily available from mainstream retailers (even a couple here in SA) and is well priced for the quality it provides. It also comes with it's own problems - like the cap is seriously stiff to take off and put on and many have removed an O-ring to make this easier.
> 
> As much as I love my Hadaly, I don't consider it high end. High quality yes, but not high end.



That is my question as well, how would one know a HE from an "overpriced"/over-hyped atomizer then?


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## Ashley A

Anneries said:


> That is my question as well, how would one know a HE from an "overpriced"/over-hyped atomizer then?


I think time reveals a high-end product. Take the Nuppin for example. That is what I call HE. You don't see many of them for sale yet there were many sent here.

It's old now but I still have 2 in rotation. I have had any tried many newer HE atties since and they don't compare to the quality of the vape. I actually traded 3 other HE atties for the second after getting the first, each that had a cost price similar to the Nuppin, so technically I paid 3 times what it cost.

It also had it's finicky problem, specifically the post screws that stripped easily so I did a bulk order on those but then I only recoil them once or twice annually. Some have complained about the difficulty building with a postless design yet it's simpler than most once you get the hang of it. By contrast though, I have dropped these hard with my Reo's numerous times and I could simply put the pieces together and keep on vaping so while it's expensive, it certainly is HE to me.

Another atty I think is HE is actually cheap is the Bellus. Didn't just make another easy to build velocity style atty that gives the same old crappy vape but instead it focussed on awesome flavour, good vapour, and that awesome design pretty much meant you never had dry hits. Plain old atty without any fancy materials or colours etc but a well designed atty that provided and good vape.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Goku's cloud

Just wanted to say a big thanks for writing up 2 excellent articles. Will there be a part 3? How far can we dive into this? I want to know MORE!


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## Rob Fisher

Goku's cloud said:


> Just wanted to say a big thanks for writing up 2 excellent articles. Will there be a part 3? How far can we dive into this? I want to know MORE!



Yes there will be many more of these posts from @Takie! He is really busy with his job and with all the HE Vape Groups that he is very active in... but he has promised to write an HE article whenever he gets a break and has a little time.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## Rob Fisher

Huffapuff said:


> Uh, maybe it's just me.
> 
> But I'm curious as to how the Hadaly qualifies as high end. Sure it's well designed and produces excellent flavour, but if that's all that's required to be high end then there's a lot more high end gear out there.
> 
> It's mass produced in China, easily available from mainstream retailers (even a couple here in SA) and is well priced for the quality it provides. It also comes with it's own problems - like the cap is seriously stiff to take off and put on and many have removed an O-ring to make this easier.
> 
> As much as I love my Hadaly, I don't consider it high end. High quality yes, but not high end.



My guess is that it's considered HE because it's designed and controlled by an HE American Company... also the owner Mac travelled to China to check the plant that is very high tech and is one of the only plants capable of the quality and quantity that he needed.

My whole take on HE is how the high end vapers around the planet react to products... if the product is really high quality and the people take to it then it's considered High End. But for me I don't really care if something is _labelled _as HE... I'm much more interested in the quality of the product and the quality of the vape. For example the long awaited and highly hyped Hurricane V2 (HE) that costs $200 is a really kak tank and a Wotofo Alto is a better device. The Hurricane V2 had so much potential but I think the engineering and build let them down...

Now if we are talking about the Hussar and the ESG Skyline you only have to vape on one and play with it to know that they are both streets ahead of anything else.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## Vapington

Decided to get a Hadaly again  give it another go lol

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1


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## Takie

Ok, this seems to require a bit more attention than I thought.

Let us start off with the Hadaly. The Hadaly is actually not a mass produced item, in fact only 12,000 units have been made to date since its release. The reason for this is the complexity of its design and the time the deck spends on the CNC. The Hadaly is a HE RDA in every sense, its origin of design comes from 3 classic HE RDAs namely, the Hobo Drifter, M-Atty and NarDA. Psyclone took all of these fantastic RDAs and mutated out something really special.

Let me address the o-rings, whistling and overheating before I continue. The o-rings are tight on purpose to prevent condensation to get between the deck and cap and cause leaking in between. If you apply your basic maintenance of o-rings you would know that for ANY new RDA you should always apply PG to them before putting the cap on. This prevents the rings from slipping and stretching. If your deck is not sitting flush, chances are that you have stretched your o-rings and need replacing. If your cap is extremely tight, chances are that you never lubricated them up. One needs to remember that the Hadaly is not like your normal commercial RDA that has low tolerance levels and that needs to be compensated for in design due to mass production i.e. 100,000+ units.

The whistling is due to the fact that either the cap is not sitting flush (which I have discussed above) or the fact when you put the BF pin you did not keep the positive post correctly seated and it moved slightly where the insulator is slightly visible through your air hole. This is a simple fix by unscrewing your 510 and then aligning the deck to where the insulator is not visible and tightening the 510 back in.

As for the tank overheating at 0.6ohms, that is not the greatest way to look at things. Remember this is NOT a cloud blowing RDA, this is a flavor tank. If you are going to have a beefy build in this RDA you are going to overheat it. Try a simple Ni80 28x2 fused 38, 3mm ID, 5 wraps, counterclockwise spun at 38W which will come to about 0.55ohms. I promise you that you will be BLOWN away!

Now lets put an end to this HE speculation. My post is not a matter of opinion but rather a matter of facts. I participate in many of the HE designs and prototype testing. I am apart of the groups where selection of HE status is done in fact. One needs to understand that the reason a NarDA or M-Atty is done within the USA completely and in boutique workshops is because of history. If you actually knew the history behind this you would know that Nareg (The owner and designer of Nar Mods) was actually betrayed by Odis, I don't really want to get into the details of this but I can say that after this entire debacle the entire design was brought in house and was done in partnership with his close friend Hoberto Serrano who used to own Hobo until he closed down because he got a 10 year contract with NASA to do special equipment builds due to the incredible workshop he has. 

One must remember that this boutique workshops have 1 to 3 specialized CNC 4 axis machines. The output will be much smaller than that of overseas. Does this change the quality between that of a NarDA and a Hadaly, the answer is no, because the machine code is developed USA side with its CNC clamps and then shipped overseas for production. One needs to remember the tolerance levels are minuscule. If we look at the price of the NarDA it is $99 for the RDA - the price of finding one outside of Nar Mods increases because of the difficulty to get one, the question one needs to ask is Nareg making any more money because of the flipper prices, the answer is no! The same applies to Matt that makes the M-Atty, he retails at around $120 yet it flips for $1000. That is just the name of the game. Mac's vision was to release a HE atty that anybody could get, which is very similar to Tom who owns 528 customs.

With the attys that have been mentioned here that might be considered "HE" I can promise you they are not. I am not trying to bash or saying anything negative towards any replies that have been made, I just think that the facts should always be stated correctly. 

If you look at the Hadaly, and its brother RDAs you cannot show me one commercial RDA that even matches their design, the reason being is that the production cost for 100,000+ units would be ridiculous. It is just the name of the game at the end of the day and where you want to be placed within the game. An interesting fact, the Goon 24 sold 85,000 units over the years it has been available. Interesting no? 

Hope that helps?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Spydro

Ashley A said:


> I think time reveals a high-end product. Take the Nuppin for example. That is what I call HE. You don't see many of them for sale yet there were many sent here.
> 
> It's old now but I still have 2 in rotation. I have had any tried many newer HE atties since and they don't compare to the quality of the vape. I actually traded 3 other HE atties for the second after getting the first, each that had a cost price similar to the Nuppin, so technically I paid 3 times what it cost.
> 
> It also had it's finicky problem, specifically the post screws that stripped easily so I did a bulk order on those but then I only recoil them once or twice annually. Some have complained about the difficulty building with a postless design yet it's simpler than most once you get the hang of it. By contrast though, I have dropped these hard with my Reo's numerous times and I could simply put the pieces together and keep on vaping so while it's expensive, it certainly is HE to me.
> 
> Another atty I think is HE is actually cheap is the Bellus. Didn't just make another easy to build velocity style atty that gives the same old crappy vape but instead it focussed on awesome flavour, good vapour, and that awesome design pretty much meant you never had dry hits. Plain old atty without any fancy materials or colours etc but a well designed atty that provided and good vape.



I agree that time reveals all things, whether they be good or bad or indifferent. Why I have a problem with "first look" reviews that calls something the latest/greatest of its kind. Using it daily for weeks/months without putting in on a shelf, giving it away or reselling it is a review that says something worth hearing.

Also agree that the Nuppin' is an exceptional and versatile BF atty. I bought 8 of them for good reason (V1's and V2's) that have always resided on Reos.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Takie

Spydro said:


> I agree that time reveals all things, whether they be good or bad or indifferent. Why I have a problem with "first look" reviews that calls something the latest/greatest of its kind. Using it daily for weeks/months without putting in on a shelf, giving it away or reselling it is a review that says something worth hearing.
> 
> Also agree that the Nuppin' is an exceptional and versatile BF atty. I bought 8 of them for good reason (V1's and V2's) that have always resided on Reos.



You guys should look at some of the mesh attys for your Reos and then you will experience utopia!


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## Spydro

Takie said:


> You guys should look at some of the mesh attys for your Reos and then you will experience utopia!



I started down that path some time back with a NoGain, then got sidetracked and never pursued it further.


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## Huffapuff

Takie said:


> Now lets put an end to this HE speculation. My post is not a matter of opinion but rather a matter of facts. I participate in many of the HE designs and prototype testing. I am apart of the groups where selection of HE status is done in fact.



If I understand you correctly, what you're saying here is that you and your buddies who design, manufacture and sell these HE items decide that they, and only they, are HE items. 

You really could've just answered the question in your topic with this statement and saved us simple plebs the time and effort of debating the intrinsic philosophical qualities of what "high end" means.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rob Fisher

Huffapuff said:


> If I understand you correctly, what you're saying here is that you and your buddies who design, manufacture and sell these HE items decide that they, and only they, are HE items.
> 
> You really could've just answered the question in your topic with this statement and saved us simple plebs the time and effort of debating the intrinsic philosophical qualities of what "high end" means.



Way da go @Huffapuff... how to win friends and influence people... @Takie went to great lengths to explain (which I thought he did pretty Well) and all you did was pass a snide remark.

You have missed the whole point of HE...

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Takie

Huffapuff said:


> If I understand you correctly, what you're saying here is that you and your buddies who design, manufacture and sell these HE items decide that they, and only they, are HE items.
> 
> You really could've just answered the question in your topic with this statement and saved us simple plebs the time and effort of debating the intrinsic philosophical qualities of what "high end" means.



I apologies if I have offended you, my post was not intended in a manner to say that my buddies and I decide what is HE, however what I think needs to be understood is that Vaping can be compared to the likes of fashion. You have your runway designers that innovate and set the trends that then filter down to your boutique clothing stores and from there that fashion filters further down to your general consumption. Ultimately I think the world would love to have every person innovating but I guess we do not live in a perfect world. I have not presented any facts that are subjective but are purely objective. We live in the day and age where knowledge is freely available. Start off with the VapingSnob website and you will start to see that what I have stated here is just a summarized version on their website. 

I truly do not have to make any posts on this forum, but I was asked to share what I have learnt and gained through my time being in the High-End arena. If you don't like what I have to say then you simply do not have to read it. 

I will leave it at that...

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## Afroman

I really do find this interesting and very helpful insight into HE and do appreciate the efforts to explain @Takie ,starting to understand what goes into these HE hardware and dont think it to be unreasonable to spend your hard earned money on some real craftsmanship! Once again thanks for your time and the awesome writeup!! Hope to hear more from you!

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## gdigitel

@Takie thank you for these very informative posts and please realise that they are indeed being appreciated. It is a glimpse into the future of vaping. The people on the cutting edge always get the most resistance unfortunately the world always applauds in retrospect. What some people fail to realise is that the HE market is driven by passion and enthusiasm, both things that cannot be bought or taught. 

Just wish they would break the mold a little with regards to the chipset tech, but I'm sure that will still come

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Clouds4Days

Takie said:


> I apologies if I have offended you, my post was not intended in a manner to say that my buddies and I decide what is HE, however what I think needs to be understood is that Vaping can be compared to the likes of fashion. You have your runway designers that innovate and set the trends that then filter down to your boutique clothing stores and from there that fashion filters further down to your general consumption. Ultimately I think the world would love to have every person innovating but I guess we do not live in a perfect world. I have not presented any facts that are subjective but are purely objective. We live in the day and age where knowledge is freely available. Start off with the VapingSnob website and you will start to see that what I have stated here is just a summarized version on their website.
> 
> I truly do not have to make any posts on this forum, but I was asked to share what I have learnt and gained through my time being in the High-End arena. If you don't like what I have to say then you simply do not have to read it.
> 
> I will leave it at that...



Please keep posting on HE @Takie even though i wont buy 99% of the stuff regarded HE i still love to know the diffrence and what else is available in the world of vaping.

Imagine a world where the cars one only knew about was a fiat multipla and a ford ka , but outside of our bubble there were amazing things like Porsche GT3 R, Ferrari La Ferrari and Lamborghini Aventadore's and we didn't know existed....

Love reading all your write ups bud.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Takie

gdigitel said:


> @Takie thank you for these very informative posts and please realise that they are indeed being appreciated. It is a glimpse into the future of vaping. The people on the cutting edge always get the most resistance unfortunately the world always applauds in retrospect. What some people fail to realise is that the HE market is driven by passion and enthusiasm, both things that cannot be bought or taught.
> 
> Just wish they would break the mold a little with regards to the chipset tech, but I'm sure that will still come



I will discuss this in detail in my next post! Great suggestion! I have a lot to say about this, you will be shocked at why there has not been much out there just yet.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Clouds4Days

O yea and the only reason i wont buy 99% of the stuff is because my wife would not be pleased if we had to eat peanut butter sandwiches for dinner to support my vaping hobby

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 5


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## Takie

For anybody interested: http://thevapesnob.com

Reactions: Like 3 | Thanks 2


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## Huffapuff

@Rob Fisher and @Takie I meant no offense and if I have offended I do apologize. 

I have been enjoying the information and debate around what makes something HE and just found that comment surprising in light of all that's gone before. 

Vaping, like fashion, is an area that is filled with hype and exaggeration and you have to admit that the HE side of it is especially guilty of this. At the end of the day the enduring legacy of an atty or mod will win out if it truly is HE. 

So far I have found that the hadaly lives up to the hype, so @Takie may just be on to something

Reactions: Like 7


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## gdigitel

Takie said:


> For anybody interested: http://thevapesnob.com


After much mental resistance and constant will power enforcement, in a moment of weakness I finally succumbed to sliding further into the rabbit hole and clicked the link.
OMG it's scary down here and so bloody beautiful.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## Takie

Huffapuff said:


> @Rob Fisher and @Takie I meant no offense and if I have offended I do apologize.
> 
> I have been enjoying the information and debate around what makes something HE and just found that comment surprising in light of all that's gone before.
> 
> Vaping, like fashion, is an area that is filled with hype and exaggeration and you have to admit that the HE side of it is especially guilty of this. At the end of the day the enduring legacy of an atty or mod will win out if it truly is HE.
> 
> So far I have found that the hadaly lives up to the hype, so @Takie may just be on to something



When I first got introduced into HE it scared the hell out of me! I really felt like a n00b all over again, it was depressing!


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## n0ugh7_zw

Takie said:


> So now if I take a step back, surely an RDA that costs R500 compared to R1500 should not be that much different other than the "style" of vaping I have? This can also be said that surely a clone is just as good as an authentic RDA right? This in fact is completely wrong.
> 
> Firstly lets put to bed the whole clone story. A clone yes can be a replica in look of an RDA however one needs to consider the following facts. The chances of the clone being of the same metallurgical composition and properties is out the window. This means that the design of the RDA that factors things like HEAT TRANSFER are completely set out of balance. Why this is important you ask? Well it is very simple. Although the irony is that we heat a coil to produce vaper, the actual cap and deck heating to a high temperature has an impact on the vaper production, quality of flavor and efficiency and demand I have on my mod - SO heat on my DECK is a NO,NO. The materials used in HE RDAs are used to keep the unit as cool as possible and to also dissipate heat as quickly as possible. This is the first thing that is factored when an RDA is made. You would be shocked how many HE modders claim a "majority" stainless steel 316L base but in fact have added "unnamed" additional materials into the composition to enhance heat transfer physics. I bet that has got your mind thinking already?
> That is one of the many reasons clones are plain and simply crap! Should there be a need for me to go into more detail about this - I will do so if asked.



That just ain't so.

Let me preface this by saying I'm getting an authentic Hadaly RDA not because of some mistrust of Chinese clones. but because I have the money to be able to afford one, and a vendor I like supporting has them in stock.

The Hadaly, is more of a refinement and an iterative improvement than a totally brand new idea, there have been 2 atties prior to it that it borrows from (nothing wrong with that at all) the NaRDA and the other one I think is called... the O atty or something like that. and Possibly a hint of Pharaoh too. 

That stuff about heat transfer.... What are to trying to articulate? Metal, be it brass, copper, stainless steel, adamantium, uru, etc... conducts heat, changing the levels of carbon and other additives may have some small effect on it, but as far as a human being without instrumentation being able to determine it, thats just not very likely.

If you want to talk about vapor production, then air pressure to the surface of the coil, and the coils surface area are the key ingredients, the atty itself heating up or staying cool is besides the point.

What i will say is that if the atty does get hot, it can compromise the juice left in the well/wicks and the flavour will suck.

But speaking in general terms with most of the RDA's i've used, if you maximise your build to be as close as possible to the airflow, this isn't a huge issue.

If they still believe that heat is an issue, then integrating some form of ceramic\glass into the atties design is a far more efficient route to take.

I've used a great many clones, and a fair few authentic pieces of gear, and honestly, for the most part the clones i've used have either matched or surpassed the authentics, let me be clear, there are tons of BS clones to be had, but if you keep your wits about you, some of them are indistinguishable for the genuine article both in terms of materials, and finish.

The fact of the matter is that because of their economy, and the way they handle labour (human converyor belts, not child labour or anything like that) they are simply able to produce the pieces at a fraction of the cost of most other parts of the world. Which is why i've long had the belief that a lot of western mod makers need to embrace China. DotMod sort of did, but i mean the price of their gear is still high AF.

*All of this though has not much to do with what defines a High End piece of gear. *

I think there are 2 schools of thought, and neither is wrong.

*School One.*
Think about car clubs (not mclaren, lamborgini, etc...) like I dunno, a mini car club. To those people mini's are the peak of high end, why? Because they flick whatever switches in the peoples brains that make them feel good. is it HE for the masses? Hells no, but for those people its everything.

Vaping definitely has its little segments like that. Where the thing they love, really doesn't make much sense or satisfy the masses, but they're happy, and they're having a perceived HE experience, more power to them, let them be happy. 

*School Two*
This is the Lamborgini car club. The gear is expensive and made out of exotic materials, and often (as with supercars) can be wildly impractical for daily use (I don't think anyone would seriously consider taking their $5000.00 tophat mod out of the house to run some errands). That said a much larger segment finds this appealing, because of the eccentricity and because of pigeon syndrome (and irrational attraction to shiny things, which just about everyone suffers from).

Again more power to them, but it has to be said, that sometimes the disparity between price and quality can be truly horrifying (Look back to the first authentic C-Frame mods, and the quality of their construction, or to the masses of people affected by bad batches of boards, etc...) But thats just it, the people that play the School Two game have the money to risk, so then let them risk it, because some of the stuff is really amazing.

I think I fall into a small minority, I consider a piece of gear to be High End based on only one thing. Effort required to use it vs. the quality of vape it provides. Other aspects of it, are much less important (looks, materials, pricing, etc...)

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 8 | Informative 1


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## Silver

@Takie I am thoroughly enjoying what you have to say on these threads and am enjoying reading it and learning more...

Thanks for your efforts

PS - With regard to some of the stuff you are talking about I am feeling very Noob 
But it doesnt make me scared, it makes me excited

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Ashley A

Hmmm, I think maybe the term HE/high-end is seen in 2 ways here. One is from the one that put's the sticker HE on it if it checks the boxes on the list of requirements according to that definition. The other is actually the words "high end" that @n0ugh7_zw has mentioned that people generally think of from their own view.

This makes it a lot clearer now. I'm just going to look at any vape related things with here with HE on it a branding or a type now than how I would define those woulds since those two definitions are not the same.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Anneries

Thank you @Takie the world of HE is very interesting. I am not quite at the point where I can take the plunge, but one day I am sure. For now I will follow and see where the road leads.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dewald

Thanks @Takie for taking the time to provide all of this information. It is certainly interesting and strange how such a big group of enthusiasts (check the vape mail thread!) did not know about all of this.

I am quite curious about all the secrecy. Why? Secret groups and purchases etc? I'm sure you can understand how all of this can seem to be elitist to the untrained eye. Also the bit of deciding HE status - Why is this being done? Surely consumers decide that and can tell whether something is HE or crap. Or is there some kind of official stamp of approval?
I am not asking this as a passive attack. Just really curious as to how this all works.

I would also love to hear your take on juice. Are there certain brands considered HE that we normal folks also don't know of and if so what makes it so great? This is an interesting question for me as I chase flavour, but my tastebuds hate me and after three drags I can't taste what I am vaping anymore. If there were to be some HE magic juice preventing that my life would be changed.


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## Spydro

Elitism includes the belief or attitude that individuals share who form a select group of people with an intrinsic quality or other distinctive attributes whose influence is greater than that of others.

As it applies to material things like vape gear, it is also about ego driven greed... for the makers to command higher prices... for the buyers to have a better chance of acquiring gear that is custom/semi-custom made in very small numbers for bragging rights and pride of ownership.

Does the existence of these vape gear groups offend me? Not at all, nor should anyone let it bother them. Elitism is very wide spread worldwide for an endless variety of concepts.

Reactions: Agree 7 | Winner 1


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## Paulie

E.T. said:


> I hate the whistle though


Your build not right bro


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## E.T.

Paulie said:


> Your build not right bro



then please be so kind and advise a 'correct" build, with normal Kanthal wire.


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## Paulie

E.T. said:


> then please be so kind and advise a 'correct" build, with normal Kanthal wire.


Sup bro ill send u a pm on whattsapp  I have a detailed review comming up here soon.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Thanks 2


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## De_Stroyer

HE mods = Ooh i want something pretty
HE RDA/TANK = Ooooh i want something pretty that performs may 8% better than reasonably priced items.

I totally understand the mods, they are art, the Viking that Rob got is absolutely beautifull,
but the price is always justified by the person buying, the performance not so much.

As for HE rda/tanks the price increase for the performance given is not justfieid *Insert law of diminishing returns*




Just a side note, MADE IN AMERICA normally means designed there, and mass produced elsewhere
My real Petri RTA MAYBE performs 2% better than the clone.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Clouds4Days

De_Stroyer said:


> My real Petri RTA MAYBE performs 2% better than the clone.



So your play play Petri is almost as good as your real Petri?


I understand what you meant just had to have some fun  everything is Real but not everything is Authentic 

I am on the opposite boat as you, i would rather pay a premium price for a RTA and increase my vaping pleasure because im getting a better vape, then pay a premium price for a Mod.

Sure the Mods look beautiful but its not gonna better your flavour or cloud production or battery life for that matter.

HE mods are purely made bettter and look better than commercial mods and thats about all you gonna get from a HE mod vs a mass produced mod.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Takie

Clouds4Days said:


> So your play play Petri is almost as good as your real Petri?
> 
> 
> I understand what you meant just had to have some fun  everything is Real but not everything is Authentic
> 
> I am on the opposite boat as you, i would rather pay a premium price for a RTA and increase my vaping pleasure because im getting a better vape, then pay a premium price for a Mod.
> 
> Sure the Mods look beautiful but its not gonna better your flavour or cloud production or battery life for that matter.
> 
> HE mods are purely made bettter and look better than commercial mods and thats about all you gonna get from a HE mod vs a mass produced mod.



This could not be further from the truth if possible!

I really really want to go sleep, but I thought that I would give my 2c's on this. 

My next article will go into detail about this, but I will just give a quick snippet into why the perception is so invalid and incorrect with regards to this matter. Your standard DNA board get shipped from Evolv to the mod maker, they can yes just insert it into their mod, do a few solder connections and be on their merry way. 

What the HE modders do is actually modify the board, they strip all the existing cables from it and put high quality cabling, this reduces voltage drop, resistance in the circuit and increases efficiency of the board. The other thing that they do is put the board onto a solder hotplate and desolder components and replace them with more premium components to further improve the efficiency and performance of the board. HE mods are not just about looks, the boards actually perform better than the OEM. What further needs to be looked at is the overall connectivity and requirements to get a board functional. Do you really think all 510's are made the same? Is there maybe a difference between spring loaded and manual 510s? 

Food for thought

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Yiannaki

I want to drink some of the HE kool-aid!

Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Chukin'Vape

I am thoroughly enjoying this narrative series focused on HE - and also the debate and responses around it. I almost missed this thread, and I enjoyed the Part 1 also. Is there no way we can keep this series together?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Rob Fisher

Chukin'Vape said:


> I am thoroughly enjoying this narrative series focused on HE - and also the debate and responses around it. I almost missed this thread, and I enjoyed the Part 1 also. Is there no way we can keep this series together?



When @Takie is finished we can make a new thread with only his posts in as sticky thread!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Clouds4Days

Takie said:


> This could not be further from the truth if possible!
> 
> I really really want to go sleep, but I thought that I would give my 2c's on this.
> 
> My next article will go into detail about this, but I will just give a quick snippet into why the perception is so invalid and incorrect with regards to this matter. Your standard DNA board get shipped from Evolv to the mod maker, they can yes just insert it into their mod, do a few solder connections and be on their merry way.
> 
> What the HE modders do is actually modify the board, they strip all the existing cables from it and put high quality cabling, this reduces voltage drop, resistance in the circuit and increases efficiency of the board. The other thing that they do is put the board onto a solder hotplate and desolder components and replace them with more premium components to further improve the efficiency and performance of the board. HE mods are not just about looks, the boards actually perform better than the OEM. What further needs to be looked at is the overall connectivity and requirements to get a board functional. Do you really think all 510's are made the same? Is there maybe a difference between spring loaded and manual 510s?
> 
> Food for thought



You see thats why we need you @Takie to help give us a in depth look into HE.

But i still stand as to a HE tank/RTA/RDA will always be more benifical than splurging on a HE mod.

Dont get me wrong if i could i would buy all the HE mods in the world 

But i think a good place to start if one wants to get into HE is to start off with the tank, and later spoil yourself on a nice HE mod.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Chukin'Vape

Rob Fisher said:


> When @Takie is finished we can make a new thread with only his posts in as sticky thread!



Up to that point - I wonder if it would be ok to request @Takie or whoever to tag me into his posts? (pushing my luck I know)

@Rob Fisher - thanks for the YouTube vidz online on your HE experience!!

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Stosta

Right....

So I have largely avoided this debate because I didn't feel the need to voice my opinion on this topic and offend people, and then deal with the fallout that would follow, so I remained sitting very quietly reading and staying out of it. But I believe that I got an opportunity today, and can offer some valuable input into this dialogue. It might piss some people off, but I think that is possibly just part of the nature of discussing high end gear.

Let me start by explaining my thoughts on this when the discussion of HE first came up (and even an hour ago):

High end gear is nice, and no doubt that the tanks, and the mods in particular are very attractive, both mods and tanks might be built better, and might offer an experience that is marginally better than what we have available to us as the masses, but certainly nothing significant enough to justify the price, which IMO is simply determined by exclusivity, and nothing else. Where the value comes in is that not everyone can simply acquire one, and therefore the experience of owning an almost unique device or piece, is largely determining the quality of the vape that the person owning said piece. I have seen it a lot, when someone buys something new, they look for the good in it only, and tout it as such in order to justify to themselves and others, that it is worth the money. I have seen this with everything from R150 juices to expensive mods, and therefore it extends and applies to the world of HE gear.

Anyway, some ugly kid showed up at my office today (@Rob Fisher ), and as I approached his vehicle to try chase him off the property, he shoved his hand out the window, containing two devices. If I'm not mistaken (and please don't crucify me if I am!), an ESG Skyline, and a Hussar RTA, both sitting pretty on top of Hellfire Phantoms. Both loaded with XXX, which I have in my hand at some point in every waking hour of the day, so I know EVERYTHING that this juice has to offer. Relishing the opportunity, I take the two to task.

The Skyline was impressive, and I was assured it is even better and wasn't blowing my mind because it didn't have a fresh wick, so I must try the Hussar.

Hands down, it is the most incredible flavour I have tasted. Not a bit better than my favourite setup, but absolute LEAGUES better. I picked up flavours in that XXX that I have never ever tasted before. It's actually a shame to be back on my STM (I know it's not a favourite for many, but I have tried a LOT of setups, and this does the most justice to XXX for me), that now tastes dirty and dry. Simply put, it sucks in comparison, and that is the sad truth.

So where am I with HE gear now? I haven't spent any money, so I don't need to re-assure myself for the cost. 

The vape I got off that Hussar was so mind-blowing, I can categorically say that it is way better than anything I have tried before, by an absolute mile. I have had a few PM conversations and those guys know that I held those original views towards HE gear, but here I am, eating my humble pie, and vaping my sad-looking subtank.

I still don't believe that the mods can perform so much better, and that flavour and the overall experience is mostly given by the tank. I KNOW that there is a lot done to an HE mod that make differences, but that, in my world, is still up for debate.

What isn't up for debate though, is that HE tanks are that much better. Am I going to go get one? I highly doubt it. Firstly I don't believe they come in black, but more importantly, I don't earn enough to warrant spending that amount on a tank, but that is not the issue. Justifications of cost is a separate issue, and is a discussion about as useful as religion or politics to me. Can HE gear be that much better than normal gear? Yes, and from my experience today, it is.

Thanks for the experience Rob, and I mean that both genuinely, and with a large amount of resent. Tasted like you spent the week basting that thing in fresh litchis.... Dammit... Next time someone pulls up in a car and offers me to try something I'm just going to say no!

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 10 | Informative 4


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## gdigitel

Dear Sir @Takie 
I think we have been waiting long enough for the next thrilling episode of "HE mods NOT in our lives"(excluding @Rob Fisher, @Paulie and some others). Please Sir. Your audience is getting "Older and Restless".

Reactions: Like 2


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## Goku's cloud

gdigitel said:


> Dear Sir @Takie
> I think we have been waiting long enough for the next thrilling episode of "HE mods NOT in our lives"(excluding @Rob Fisher, @Paulie and some others). Please Sir. Your audience is getting "Older and Restless".


Agreed let's keep this going please


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## Anneries

@Takie did I miss the followup on this series? I have been waiting for some more information on this interesting side of vaping.


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## Rob Fisher

Anneries said:


> @Takie did I miss the followup on this series? I have been waiting for some more information on this interesting side of vaping.



You didn't @Anneries... he is working on it... shouldn't be long now...

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## Pixstar

I had the pleasure of handling Takies' Hellfire Phantom last week at Vape Cartel.
For me, that is a true HE mod. He had the awesome Hadaly on it, a perfect pairing IMO.
The fit and finish and the feel in the hand is just phenominal.
That and its squonking brother, the Shadow, are the most wanted on my list.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Silver

Pixstar said:


> I had the pleasure of handling Takies' Hellfire Phantom last week at Vape Cartel.
> For me, that is a true HE mod. He had the awesome Hadaly on it, a perfect pairing IMO.
> The fit and finish and the feel in the hand is just phenominal.
> That and its squonking brother, the Shadow, are the most wanted on my list.



Thats great @Pixstar 
I would also love to try out the Hellfire Phantom to see what it feels like in the hand.
Have had my eye on that for a while...

And a Billet box, which I have fortunately had the pleasure of trying out - thanks to @Paulie - that is a stunning little device and its so comfy. The front facing fire button is great too.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rob Fisher

Silver said:


> Thats great @Pixstar
> I would also love to try out the Hellfire Phantom to see what it feels like in the hand.
> Have had my eye on that for a while...
> 
> And a Billet box, which I have fortunately had the pleasure of trying out - thanks to @Paulie - that is a stunning little device and its so comfy. The front facing fire button is great too.



Will bring a Hellfire Phantom, Shadow and Billet Box to the Vape Meet... Boom!

Reactions: Winner 3 | Funny 1


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## Pixstar

Silver said:


> Thats great @Pixstar
> I would also love to try out the Hellfire Phantom to see what it feels like in the hand.
> Have had my eye on that for a while...
> 
> And a Billet box, which I have fortunately had the pleasure of trying out - thanks to @Paulie - that is a stunning little device and its so comfy. The front facing fire button is great too.


I agree with you on the Billet Box @Silver , was one of the first reviews I watched when I started vaping and I think the concept is excellent! Have never tried one though...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver

@Rob Fisher - that photo is just glorious!!

If you could only keep one of those setups, what would it be and why? 
(I know its hypothetical, but am keen to hear)

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Pixstar

Rob Fisher said:


> Will bring a Hellfire Phantom, Shadow and Billet Box to the Vape Meet... Boom!
> View attachment 86679


So much awesomeness in one pic!!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Silver

I just "registered" now Rob - the Skyline is not there

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Rob Fisher

Silver said:


> @Rob Fisher - that photo is just glorious!!
> 
> If you could only keep one of those setups, what would it be and why?
> (I know its hypothetical, but am keen to hear)



Probably the Billet Box because it's an all rounder... good flavour... portable with decent battery life and good juice capacity... the NarTa is the best flavour but it's more of a desk device for me because you really need to fill with a syringe and it needs filling often. But if there was only one setup I could have in the whole world it would be the Hellfire Phantom with the Skyline on top.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Pixstar

Forgot to add how compact the Phantom is in the hand, looks larger in photos than what it actually is.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Takie

Rob Fisher said:


> Will bring a Hellfire Phantom, Shadow and Billet Box to the Vape Meet... Boom!
> View attachment 86679



I am SOOO bringing my purple mod!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver

Rob Fisher said:


> Probably the Billet Box because it's an all rounder... good flavour... portable with decent battery life and good juice capacity... the NarTa is the best flavour but it's more of a desk device for me because you really need to fill with a syringe and it needs filling often. But if there was only one setup I could have in the whole world it would be the Hellfire Phantom with the Skyline on top.



This is great to hear - just epic...

Billet Box / Exocet + Phantom / Skyline - sounds like a good longer-term combo for me.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Silver

Takie said:


> I am SOOO bringing my purple mod!



Great to hear @Takie 
We must try do a high end photo with all the high end gear on a single table!

We did a similar type of thing about two years ago with the Reos - Rob had his Captain America drip tip - was a fabulous photo.


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## Ash

In my opinion, Skyline has to be the BEST RTA TO DATE. Simply flawless in the month or so of use. Basic weekly maintenance keeps this RTA in top form. With the new deck, the options are for any vapour. Cannot wait.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rob Fisher

Silver said:


> Great to hear @Takie
> We must try do a high end photo with all the high end gear on a single table!
> 
> We did a similar type of thing about two years ago with the Reos - Rob had his Captain America drip tip - was a fabulous photo.



No he is not allowed to bring the Purple Mod... no 3D printed crap is authorised despite what fancy chip it may have inside!


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## Rob Fisher

Ash said:


> In my opinion, Skyline has to be the BEST RTA TO DATE. Simply flawless in the month or so of use. Basic weekly maintenance keeps this RTA in top form. With the new deck, the options are for any vapour. Cannot wait.



No arguments @Ash! I have owned and tested more than a few RTA's in my time... 

1. Skyline
2. Hussar
3. Exocet

Special mention need to be made of the NarTa which is an RDTA and it probably wins the flavour race but not the all round usability.


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## Ash

Rob Fisher said:


> No arguments @Ash! I have owned and tested more than a few RTA's in my time...
> 
> 1. Skyline
> 2. Hussar
> 3. Exocet
> 
> Special mention need to be made of the NarTa which is an RDTA and it probably wins the flavour race but not the all round usability.



Awsome, cannot wait for my BB to arrive with exocet.


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## Pixstar

Takie said:


> I am SOOO bringing my purple mod!


Any pics, please?


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## kev mac

Rob Fisher said:


> No arguments @Ash! I have owned and tested more than a few RTA's in my time...
> 
> 1. Skyline
> 2. Hussar
> 3. Exocet
> 
> Special mention need to be made of the NarTa which is an RDTA and it probably wins the flavour race but not the all round usability.


@Rob Fisher , I have another question for our resident H.E. Guru. I have been researching h.e.tanks lately and have noticed many of these have plastic type instead of glass tank tubes.Some of the most expensive h.e.RTAs I.e. the Sherman,Hussar,Tilemahos etc.is there a reason for this?


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## daniel craig

kev mac said:


> @Rob Fisher , I have another question for our resident H.E. Guru. I have been researching h.e.tanks lately and have noticed many of these have plastic type instead of glass tank tubes.Some of the most expensive h.e.RTAs I.e. the Sherman,Hussar,Tilemahos etc.is there a reason for this?


The Hussar uses a Polycarbonate Tank section. Polycarbonate, if you research it's properties, has a very good resistance to heat. The idea of High End RTA's goes beyond just the creativity and design. There's a lot of thought put in to it. High End RTA's and RDA's try to use the best possible materials to prevent heat at all. For example, if we use our normal tanks, after a short while it will get hot and retain the heat for a while. With HE RTA's, this is not the case as the materials used make heat escape faster and make them resistant to heat. @Rob Fisher can maybe confirm this.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Informative 1


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## Rob Fisher

@kev mac @daniel craig is right on the button...

However the Sherman came out with a plastic tank and that was just plain stupid in my opinion! Luckily I grabbed an Ultem tank at the time so didn't suffer a cracked tank like so many did from menthol juices.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver

@Rob Fisher , what is the difference from a user perspective of an ultem tank versus a glass tank?

Is it just that ultem doesn't break as easily if dropped or am I mistaken?


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## Rob Fisher

Silver said:


> @Rob Fisher , what is the difference from a user perspective of an ultem tank versus a glass tank?
> 
> Is it just that ultem doesn't break as easily if dropped or am I mistaken?



Yes it is much more resilient especially to dropping but it also has non heat transfer properties as well.

Reactions: Like 2


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## M5000

Just wanted to share this, not too sure where it belongs but since it is on topic will leave it here.. This is just a short clip, there are plenty more, this place looks cleaner than a restaurant and employs 5 people but it is the plant and the attention to detail is unbelievable. Compare it to something like this and it's clear that you get what you pay for.. I'm not for or against HE or clones so don't come after me.. Even if you don't care for this topic, you gotta love this kit.. "if it doesn't light up your soul, you've got no soul" - the older guys will recognize that.. Group buy anyone?

Reactions: Like 4


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