# HE v non-HE



## Scouse45

im getting a little confused about all this. I tend to feel like if we don't hav an HE mod or tank. Then it's not really interesting anymore on The forum anymore. I don't dig it hey it's proper divided. Anyone hav anything to share?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 16 | Thanks 1


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## boxerulez

The JUST of it is bragging rights. It vapes the same as the clone but I paid quadroctuple the price and waited 5 months for it so its better.

Reactions: Agree 7 | Thanks 1


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## Lee

aka... pissing contest

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3


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## boxerulez

Lee said:


> aka... pissing contest


Remember when in the cubicles, the loudest wee wee is from the shortest pee pee.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 14


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## KZOR

boxerulez said:


> The JUST of it is bragging rights


I think he means that because of all the recent posts of HE gear the rest of the gear is taking a backseat when it comes to attention.
I have noticed a drop in the activity of the forum but it certainly does not have to be that way. 
If i manage to find a way to be able to get to Vapecon then the plan is to challenge HE vapers to a showdown. 
I am almost 100% sure i will beat them flavor wise with something cheap like the Maddog RDA.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 1 | Winner 7


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## boxerulez

KZOR said:


> I think he means that because of all the recent posts of HE gear the rest of the gear is taking a backseat when it comes to attention.
> I have noticed a drop in the activity of the forum but it certainly does not have to be that way.
> If i manage to find a way to be able to get to Vapecon then the plan is to challenge HE vapers to a showdown.
> I am almost 100% sure i will beat them flavor wise with something cheap like the Maddog RDA.



The mad dog was mad, the ICON will kill it as it did my goon. Hell the goon is sold.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deckie

It's a straight pissing contest - nothing complicated, just drink loads of water, whip the water pistol out and see who's got it or not. 1st prize - a CO2 canister for your ego or 2 nights in the Road Lodge in Welkom.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 6


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## boxerulez

KZOR said:


> I think he means that because of all the recent posts of HE gear the rest of the gear is taking a backseat when it comes to attention.
> I have noticed a drop in the activity of the forum but it certainly does not have to be that way.
> If i manage to find a way to be able to get to Vapecon then the plan is to challenge HE vapers to a showdown.
> I am almost 100% sure i will beat them flavor wise with something cheap like the Maddog RDA.



And yes you will beat them, and they they will tell you a Goon vapes about R700 better than the mad dog.
Hadaly has about R700 more flavour and 
Skyline uses R2000 less watts giving R2000 more flavour

Reactions: Funny 8


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## incredible_hullk

Time to come clean...as of almost 3 weeks ago I have a BRRT box and I love it...was too afraid to post in vape mail due to reactions.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 4 | Funny 8


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## Rob Fisher

Scouse45 said:


> im getting a little confused about all this. I tend to feel like if we don't hav an HE mod or tank. Then it's not really interesting anymore on The forum anymore. I don't dig it hey it's proper divided. Anyone hav anything to share?



I understand your feelings @Scouse45... HE is just another option in this wonderful journey of ours! Personally I still like playing for normal stuff as well... Kylin, Omni and Crown 3 because things are improving all the time... the best set up is the one that works for you.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 6


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## Deckie

incredible_hullk said:


> Time to come clean...as of almost 3 weeks ago I have a BRRT box and I love it...was too afraid to post in vape mail due to reactions.


Screw the reactions - you paid money for it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Lee

incredible_hullk said:


> Time to come clean...as of almost 3 weeks ago I have a BRRT box and I love it...was too afraid to post in vape mail due to reactions.


Awww @incredible_hullk glad you came "out"

Reactions: Funny 4 | Thanks 1


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## incredible_hullk

Lee said:


> Awww @incredible_hullk glad you came "out"



Thanks @Lee ... feel like I can be myself now

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ash

When I think of luxury in a particular mod, I think of the authentic option first. But that's not to say everyone thinks that way, or would think that way. The difference, IMO, is like the difference between carrying a Gucci bag or a Fucci bag. If your price point is a Fucci, that's your luxury, but if you _could_ afford a Gucci, because you like the way it looks or feels or the small details of it, you'd probably go with a Gucci. Even if they were very similar. There is always going to be the "name association" which is what branding is all about -- and it's the association with a name that evokes a buttery feeling inside you (you, in general terms), makes you able to justify the price and feel the sense of pride in ownership (be it bag-proud or mod-proud, doesn't matter).

Vaping is relative to everything else in life. Some people drive expensive cars and some don't. At the end of the day, we all arrive at our individually chosen destinations.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1


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## Deckie

I'll just copy and paste what I said in the other thread before it got lost:

My 2cents - To me I see the gap between HE gear & the volume commercial gear most have to endure, closing fast and soon there'll be little or no difference. The only difference will be availability, accessability and to a small extent the quality of materials used. I personally feel that the availability/accessabilty aspect is what will determine whether the said item is HE or not, thus affording bragging rights - In other words - you have the money and connections, you got it.

Just my 2 cents - hang me after I've fed my children.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Daniel

As for the HE scene , I get it , I buy HE custom knives. Does it cut the same as another knife , yup ..... so each one to his own. 

What I DON'T like about HE is how it divides this forum , on both ends of the spectrum...... 

I buy clones , authentics , Reos , Pico Squeezas , SXK BRRT Boxes ...... and I love them all .... 

Once the "haves" start dictating what the "have not's" can say or not say freely on a community forum .... is the day a forum dies.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 8


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## Silver

Please don't anyone mock my Evod1 / istick20 combo

It kicks ass big time and is one of the most precious devices to me. I use it daily and it's just so amazing for out and about.

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 15 | Can relate 1


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## skola

Daniel said:


> As for the HE scene , I get it , I buy HE custom knives. Does it cut the same as another knife , yup ..... so each one to his own.
> 
> What I DON'T like about HE is how it divides this forum , on both ends of the spectrum......
> 
> I buy clones , authentics , Reos , Pico Squeezas , SXK BRRT Boxes ...... and I love them all ....
> 
> Once the "haves" start dictating what the "have not's" can say or not say freely on a community forum .... is the day a forum dies.


LONG LIVE THE SQUEEZAS!!!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Stosta

An interesting thread @Scouse45 and one I have been waiting to see come up for a long time now.

Guys I understand where this thread has risen from but lets all try be adults about it and discuss it in a constructive way. If we can do so without personal attacks, passive aggression and snide remarks indirectly aimed at people then I think a lot of good can come out of this discussion.

I too have noticed a lot of changes on the forum since the world of HE gear came in, and yeah a lot of people not posting about the normal gear because they feel it's not as exciting as a R10 000 mod or whatever. When I buy a second hand tank in the classies for R300 you can bet your bottom dollar I will post about it and be excited. It may not be exciting to everyone, but a lot of people can still relate to this stuff. If I had a ****-ton of money would I buy a BB, but I would still be driving a Honda 

It may seem divisive but that is only going to happen if we let it go that route. We are a strong community and sure we all have our opinions and should be free to express them, provided it's in a constructive way.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 13 | Winner 5


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## Andre

incredible_hullk said:


> Time to come clean...as of almost 3 weeks ago I have a BRRT box and I love it...was too afraid to post in vape mail due to reactions.


I need to see that in the Vape Mail thread please.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5


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## Rob Fisher

Stosta said:


> Guys I understand where this thread has risen from but lets all try be adults about it and discuss it in a constructive way. If we can do so without personal attacks, passive aggression and snide remarks indirectly aimed at people then I think a lot of good can come out of this discussion.



Well said @Stosta! 100% on the money!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## zadiac

Give the HE people their place in the sun. They paid dearly for it. Likewise, the non-HE people also deserve their place in the sun, though smaller maybe as it's not so expensive. Live and let live. 
I don't give a crap about HE anymore (used to and spent a lot of money on it, and for what?). I enjoy my non-HE setups now more than the HE ones and am very happy with my current style of vaping.

//end

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 3


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## Lee

Whats the stance on clones?


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## Stosta

Lee said:


> Whats the stance on clones?


Let's keep clone discussions to this thread...

https://www.ecigssa.co.za/to-clone-or-not-to-clone.t35587/

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Silver

Daniel said:


> Once the "haves" start dictating what the "have not's" can say or not say freely on a community forum .... is the day a forum dies.



I agree with you fully @Daniel in what you said in your post. 

For me, HE is a big eye opener. I have not had any _really _high end gear myself. The Skyline will be my first. I want to see what its all about and put it through its paces against the commercial gear that I know well with the juices I vape. And I will try document my findings accurately when I have the time.

But I want to touch on something you mentioned. You said "When the "haves" start dictating what the "have nots" can say...." If that has happened on the forum, then I apologise for it - I must have not seen it. However I do not believe that this is the intention of the Admin & Mod Team. Certainly not. 

If your comment refers to the recent derailed Skyline Group Buy thread, and how certain posts were moved into another thread - well that is just to keep that original Skyline Group Buy thread on topic. 

I have offered to rename that other thread, but it seems this thread has taken centre stage on this topic now. 

Anyone is free to have opinions on any gear - be it high end or not. As long as people don't get personal or offensive - and as long as the general forum principles and spirit are kept in tact - then there is no problem.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ash

Lee said:


> Whats the stance on clones?



If I am not mistaken, there is a separate posting about that.

https://www.ecigssa.co.za/to-clone-or-not-to-clone.t35587/


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## Rob Fisher

Lee said:


> Whats the stance on clones?



I think everyone has thier own stance on clones. If you are asking from a fourm point of view then the forum has no problem with clones because 90% or more of the vendors stock clones and 98% of the members buy clones.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## craigb

KZOR said:


> I think he means that because of all the recent posts of HE gear the rest of the gear is taking a backseat when it comes to attention.
> I have noticed a drop in the activity of the forum but it certainly does not have to be that way.
> If i manage to find a way to be able to get to Vapecon then the plan is to challenge HE vapers to a showdown.
> I am almost 100% sure i will beat them flavor wise with something cheap like the Maddog RDA.



If you manage to make it vapecon then we can arrange an exclusive mad dog meet  

This thread can now resume it's regularly scheduled ranting.


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## E.T.

Lee said:


> Whats the stance on clones?




Some clones rock , some clones don't
Some people buy them, some others won't

Personal choice, at the end of the day its each forum menbers own money, so everone can buy what the hell they want.

I have authentic vape goods and clones as well, if someone has a problem with that well... it their prob not mine.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## Hakhan

Ash said:


> When I think of luxury in a particular mod, I think of the authentic option first. But that's not to say everyone thinks that way, or would think that way. The difference, IMO, is like the difference between carrying a Gucci bag or a Fucci bag. If your price point is a Fucci, that's your luxury, but if you _could_ afford a Gucci, because you like the way it looks or feels or the small details of it, you'd probably go with a Gucci. Even if they were very similar. There is always going to be the "name association" which is what branding is all about -- and it's the association with a name that evokes a buttery feeling inside you (you, in general terms), makes you able to justify the price and feel the sense of pride in ownership (be it bag-proud or mod-proud, doesn't matter).
> 
> Vaping is relative to everything else in life. Some people drive expensive cars and some don't. At the end of the day, we all arrive at our individually chosen destinations.


It's not always the price it seems HE you must mash the f5. Belong to a certain closed FB group..secret hand shake...I just need my nic

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5


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## Puff the Magic Dragon

I agree largely with your sentiments @Stosta but here's the rub. It is understandable that some forum members feel that "lower end " gear is not worth discussing, or is frowned upon by others. If "high enders" state that products xy and z ARE the BEST that money can buy, where does it leave them ? Why would they feel at ease saying something like " I think the Goblin mini is one of the best RTAs on the market ?...even if it is for them.

On the pet peeves thread, for example, it was stated that someone's pet peeve was ... people who claim to have high end gear at home, but vape on a pico and goblin when on the go....or words to that effect (admittedly this peeve example could be interpreted several ways, but I am certain some vapers felt offended, even if this wasn't the intention). This can only be divisive. 

I'm not saying this out of jealousy or bitterness. My wife would allow me to buy any and all "high end" gear I would like. But I choose not to. I won't give reasons why, because it has no relevance to the haves vs have nots issue raised by @Daniel .

For several months I have been toying with the idea of starting a thread entitled something like "Low end gear I have really liked". I have refrained from doing so because it may offend others. I have also steered clear of the high vs low end gear discussions, as well as the clone debate.

This is a great forum and doesn't deserve to be derailed by petty one upmanship, whether it is intentional or not.

Reactions: Like 7


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## Silver

Well worded @Puff the Magic Dragon 

That "Low end gear I have really liked" thread sounds very interesting. I am keen to hear which are the winners. 

I have a few I can add to that thread


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## wikus

I would say to a point we are all HE vapers, reason being the absurd prices we have to pay for juice, the profit margins are insane, and we all need juice regardless of what device u use. If any regulations need to be changed or applied it needs to come down on the manufacturers of juices, quality control and price regulating of some sort.


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## Deckie

Of late I've become kinda shy to do posts or even add my 2 cents to 99% of the threads. In my 2 year + vaping journey I've been fortunate enough to experience both worlds - HE & el cheapo commercial stuff. I've bought a ridiculous amount of gear, sold a lot, tossed a lot and given away truck loads to the less fortunate guys and still have boxes full of unused gear.

I need to break this down into 2 categories - Mods and RDA/ RTA.

Mods are simple - HE mods look awesome but perform exactly the same as the cheap stuff - i.e. Your iSticks with built in batteries and such. So to me HE mods only have one benefit and that's looks. I have a few Stab wood mods - An Kodoma - which I love but never use because it's impractical to carry around. A Ohmsmium - same. An Athena Pride, which is just to damn heavy so it stays on my desk, an M17 which I love but is held in less than little regard amongst the HE community because a few had a issue and a HHA Ares which I use daily, at my desk and out & about. Lately though I've been gravitating back towards my Snowwolf mini's, my Yihi Q Mini's ( I have 2) and such mods, simply because I find them more practical to use, are mods resilient and don't costs as much - thus I don't flip a fuse when I drop or bump it.

RDA/RTA - now this is different. I have A Skyline a 2 Hussars - Hussar - a waste of my money, Skyline awesome RTA, innovative design, I have a 2nd 1 one the way with the GB. This is where the fanfare about HE RTA's stops. If I was given the opportunity to get into a Skyline GB now, I wouldn't, not because its crap or anything like that but because of 2 completely different reasons - 1. The hurdles and rigmarole involved in getting a Skyline doesn't in my opinion justify the gains in terms of vape quality over commercial RTA's & 2. I'm gravitating back to my trusty Subtanks because those R500 tanks are just as good for my vaping style as the R 3000 Skyline, if not better.

Only my opinion based on my needs.

Reactions: Like 9 | Agree 1


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## Ash

I think you if you have found your vaping nirvana, stick with, be proud of it and enjoy every vaping moment with it. We all come to that point at 1 point or another. I know I have found mine. As long as you vaping, High end, Mid end, Low End, There should be NO END to vaping

Reactions: Like 4


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## Puff the Magic Dragon

Silver said:


> That "Low end gear I have really liked" thread sounds very interesting. I am keen to hear which are the winners.
> 
> I have a few I can add to that thread



There are three main items. Two of them clones (Oh the embarrassment and shame) the other a very low end mod. Perhaps I will start the thread once everyone has calmed down re High vs low end and clones.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Scouse45

I actually quite appreciate how people hav chipped in here and been pretty decent about it all. At the risk of being cheesy the whole point is to vape and not smoke. So we all passing. 

@Rob Fisher @Silver @Ash and whoever else I left out i appreciate ur feedback. My only gripe was simply that the form has strayed away from regular vape purchases and discussions on new upcoming gear and current events, and had gone more toward only the fancy stuff. And don't get me wrong I love the look and sound of it all, but I can't quite partake in all of it. I just like discussions to also include the regular vapers. High end or low end or even damn clones shouldn't matter in the least. It comes down to wat ur finances and choices decide. 

I myself ordered some sxk kayfuns to try as I can't simply shell out 2000 or so without knowing if it's worth it. That's my call. And I am including clones in the discussion coz I can is my thread haha. I also understand some people hav a personal stance I know @Rob Fisher had a friend rob if I'm not mistaken go out of business dies to clones. Everything is subject no matter wat it is. 

Clones aside the whole point is to share in each other's enjoyment as many others don't understand my vaping enjoyment. If i show my wife my new DNA coils she simply doesn't get it. Whereas my mates @Akash and @Greyz r proper mates that we share the excitement of it all! 

Thanks for everyone's input. Awesome chat this. And maybe we should start some other threads as @Puff the Magic Dragon said jus for more laughs and enjoyment.

Reactions: Like 7 | Winner 1


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## SAVaper

Ok time for me to come out 2.....





What is HE?

Reactions: Winner 2 | Funny 1


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## Deckie

Ash said:


> I think you if you have found your vaping nirvana, stick with, be proud of it and enjoy every vaping moment with it. We all come to that point at 1 point or another. I know I have found mine. As long as you vaping, High end, Mid end, Low End, There should be NO END to vaping


No I think have finally found reason & sensibility. Why spend R7000 on a HE mod when I could rather invest that money in something more sound - property or even better, my family?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 4


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## Kalahari stoommasjien

SAVaper said:


> Ok time for me to come out 2.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is HE?



High End ? Horribly Elitist?
Come lets all spend the money where we each want to spend it...
Just for an example most seem to value the DNA based mods highly and they seem to be more pricey than I believe to be reasonable, but all that aside, whenever I see a picture of one on here someone showing off his overpriced mod, its in power mode... ok definitely w*nker territory, after all, I understood the DNA mods are supposed to be really good at temp control, so why run in power mode?... That in my eyes pretty much makes the HE gear a one upmanship game, which I wouldn't want to partake in... in fact I've got another iStick Pico underway, will work just as well as any DNA mod out there at a fraction of the cost...


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## Kuhlkatz

It seems like discussions of HE gear and clones bear close resemblance to discussions of politics and religion. 
Some people can argue (on any of the sides) about any of those topics for hours on end and still get nothing out of it except frustration and headaches.
Others can just shrug it off and realize that everyone has an opinion and a right to believe what they want and do with their lives and / or money what they want, and just not even bother getting caught up in the discussions.
And then you get the evil bastards that stir and poke fun at people on both sides of the conversations to rile them up, get them involved in fistfights, and then simply sit back and have a helluva time watching the whole debacle play itself out. In a front row seat, nogal.

We are not here to convince anyone to use a specific device or atty, we just want them to vape... on whatever the heck they want to. As long as they can stop smoking, or just smoke less, that's all that counts. Oh, and if they have a bit of fun while doing it, even better !

Me, I'm just here because I vape and I enjoy the spirit and camaraderie of this community.

P.S. I still use my Evic VTC mini, Subtank Mini, iJust 2 and Billow v2 every day. And you know why? Cause they work for me.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 4 | Winner 2


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## GerritVisagie

My 2c sits like this. 
Over the last couple of months, vaping has taken off in Rustenburg...
Yeah, we're kinda slow. 

And since advocating VapeCon on our whatsapp group I've run into guys saying things like 
"yo, I need to upgrade my gear, I cannot be seen vaping a Pico at VapeCon"
So, I think alot of it is a competitive spirit thing we South Africans are so well endowed with. 
It comes down to revisiting the reason I started vaping in the first place and inevitably why this forum has become my family I've never met. 
To stop smoking, and to enjoy the hell out of this hobby. Let it never be a competition. 
There's no way you will ever have the best, somewhere someone thinks what you are using is butt ugly, and a horrible vape, for whatever their reasons and the same person may feel something you chucked in the bin is the best thing since sliced bread. 


Sent from my iPhone 7+ using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Raindance

Interesting to observe the progression from forming, storming, to currently the start of norming and hopefully next up, performing.

I think the forum has lost its focus due to the introduction of this so called superior gear as this is meant to be a forum based in, and intended to promote, the culture of the general South African vaper.

One of my posts in response to our "introduction" to HE was to compare the trend to the moral of the story contained in "The emperors new clothes", and seems my prediction has now come to fruition. The proof is being presented right here and for that reason I propose we consider that so called HE gear remains where it has its roots in the Facebook culture and actually should rather stay there. This is truly not the place for it if we want to ensure this forum remains relevant to its target audience.

Ok, I think I may have stepped in it big time again, but I am no stranger to foot in mouth disease so throw those tomatoes if you wish. As long as we can get the conversation going in some sort of direction!

Regards

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


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## SAVaper

My favorite is the Fuchai 213 with limitless RDTA
I really enjoy it and it looks like I will have to up my knowledge of HE

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zeki Hilmi

I've toyed in both spectrums of HE and regular devices. By regular I mean cheaper hardware thats available. IMO I find HE not versatile enough for my style of vaping as it's more geared up for the MTL vaper. Most HE mods simply go up to 75w which is if that's the style of vaping you like. I myself will not buy clones but that does not mean it has to be HE. IMO the Goon is probably the best dripper available but not quite scratching the HE market. So What!!!
Theres a couple of reasons I do not buy clones although that was all that was really readably available 4 years ago. I don't buy clones because a) I can generally afford not to and b) I like to support the industry that have worked hard to design their devices etc to provide me with the "best" quality available. I have quite an extensive collection of mods, RDA's etc however I also like to offload occasional to make room for new products as I'm not a hoarder.
HE is also very much of a status symbol and if that's what you are wanting then great go for it. I have DNA chips in a lot of mods which are not HE although the HE market tends to use it. Then there's the look of some of the HE equipment. Again imo a lot look like sex toys with their glittery colours but that's my opinion. I have VA mod which I've had to send straight back to VA (Vicious Ant) because it was faulty. I've also actually very shocked with the bad service I have experienced from VA. If I buy a Ferrari I want the service that comes with that car and to be treated well. I get much better service from my local vendor.
In essence although I do appreciate HE hardware and will probably buy more should I find something that really appeals to me a lot of it is very overpriced and yes I believe does feed on ego as it does mine from time to time.
I will never be ashamed to advertise my "low end" so called gear even though I've spent maybe 3.5k on a mod but still not classed HE. 
I urge you all to just be *"you"* and not be intimidated by those who choose to show of their yachts. Enjoy your boat and sale into the sunset with complete serenity.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 1


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## KZOR

I am as happy as a pig in Palestine with my collection. I can start up anyone of them anytime and have close to an orgasmic experience.



HE gear is for refined vapors just like a bottle of Kanonkop Black Label Pinotage 2014 is for the refined wine fanatic.
It is a question of what makes you sing and dance when you on your own or what takes you down that avenue of delight. My vice i have found in RDA's and mods that refuse to let me down. 
I take someone like @hands .......... he is a happy chappy with his white twinky Minikin v2 and SM tank. 
@Rob Fisher is a huge m8 of mine and the fact that he is a devoted HE fan does not phase me in the least because that is where he has found his happy place and i respect him for that.
All simply boils down to what an individual needs to keep him off the stinkies while smiling out of pure content with his setup that compliments his style the best. 
Nasty remarks germinate out of pure jealousy and that is what we must keep out of the forum since it is a personal flaw.
Damn ..... typing too much ....... miss kissing my Goon on my Predator 228.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## hands

KZOR said:


> twinky





KZOR said:


> Nasty remarks germinate out of pure jealousy



Members who can afford to buy all the shiny HE mods should have the same bragging rights as me with my "twinky" setup and it should never be a "pee pee" match. I actually enjoy all things vaping and we need to see all of it on the forum, so He and non HE guys go nuts and tell us all about it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 8


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## Silver

I want to thank @Scouse45 for starting this thread

And all of you who have contributed your views - they have been excellent to read. 
And thanks @Scouse45 for your follow up comments a few posts above. 

Along the lines of what @Kuhlkatz says - one often tends to forget why we are here. Its really to discuss something we love. And to keep off the stinkies. 

It's not about whether High End is better or worse than commercial. That can certainly be discussed and debated, but it certainly isn't our intention that if more HE mods appear in the threads, then your excitement for the Pico is not worth sharing or something you should feel ashamed of. Its not the device itself but rather the emotions that are more important. 

But let me just remind everyone of the things we are trying to achieve (I am speaking for the Admin and Mod Team here) and for some of the longer standing members - hopefully for most of us too:

First and foremost, we are here to *discuss what we love* - vaping - in all its shapes and forms, high end, low end - mouth to lung, drippers, tanks, lung hits - DIY - and all. 
We want to *help newer vapers* to have a better vaping journey. That's why so many of us try very hard to help others out with their vaping issues, be it a wonky coil build or choosing a new mod. We also try very to be welcoming to newer members in the Intro thread.
We want to *educate* folk on all things vaping related - this is a great platform for more experienced vapers to share some pearls of wisdom along the way. This includes things like battery safety, which we treat seriously.
We want to *paint vaping in a good light* - while we are doing the above, we want to improve the overall image of vaping - and make it viewed more positively by all - if possible.
And - we want to do all the above while having respect for each other, not offending or getting personal. And at the same time have a forum that is well maintained with good structure - and clear rules that are followed.
Nowhere in the above does it say that we are trying to create a culture of "These types of devices are better than those" - or that "you are frowned upon if you vape that". Please get those ideas out of your mind. That is not what we are trying to do.

If a few so called "high enders" make wonderful posts of their glorious looking mods, don't feel shy or intimidated to share your experiences of your vaping devices. I have been on this forum for a long time and have shared my humble Evod and SubTank Mini probably more times than I can remember - and I have never felt prouder. 

Be proud, enjoy the journey, no matter what.

Reactions: Like 10 | Agree 3 | Winner 13


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## incredible_hullk

100% agree @Silver we mustn't forget that we here for all vapers... a year ago when I joined this was a warm welcoming forum where people aren't afraid to ask the stupid questions and learn.

My perception and imho that has changed and I am seeing a lot less of the intro and basic vape chats- the last thing we want to do is alienate folk. Previously a normal atty new product post would last forever, look at the sm25 thread, today it's not happening.

I get HE vs non HE is emotive, so is clone vs auth. Honestly I miss the chit chat the forum used to have about the normal stuff that everyone uses. Yes we have the threads abt the predator and kylin etc but it just feels different.

Sometimes I think what would I feel if I joined today... and sometimes I think if new vapers think we a bunch of pretentious folk. If I joined today my reaction would not be the same like a year ago.

Disagree, thumbs down me guys but it's just my 0,02 ohms worth.

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 8 | Winner 2


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## E.T.

Silver said:


> I want to thank @Scouse45 for starting this thread
> 
> And all of you who have contributed your views - they have been excellent to read.
> And thanks @Scouse45 for your follow up comments a few posts above.
> 
> Along the lines of what @Kuhlkatz says - one often tends to forget why we are here. Its really to discuss something we love. And to keep off the stinkies.
> 
> It's not about whether High End is better or worse than commercial. That can certainly be discussed and debated, but it certainly isn't our intention that if more HE mods appear in the threads, then your excitement for the Pico is not worth sharing or something you should feel ashamed of. Its not the device itself but rather the emotions that are more important.
> 
> But let me just remind everyone of the things we are trying to achieve (I am speaking for the Admin and Mod Team here) and for some of the longer standing members - hopefully for most of us too:
> 
> First and foremost, we are here to *discuss what we love* - vaping - in all its shapes and forms, high end, low end - mouth to lung, drippers, tanks, lung hits - DIY - and all.
> We want to *help newer vapers* to have a better vaping journey. That's why so many of us try very hard to help others out with their vaping issues, be it a wonky coil build or choosing a new mod. We also try very to be welcoming to newer members in the Intro thread.
> We want to *educate* folk on all things vaping related - this is a great platform for more experienced vapers to share some pearls of wisdom along the way. This includes things like battery safety, which we treat seriously.
> We want to *paint vaping in a good light* - while we are doing the above, we want to improve the overall image of vaping - and make it viewed more positively by all - if possible.
> And - we want to do all the above while having respect for each other, not offending or getting personal. And at the same time have a forum that is well maintained with good structure - and clear rules that are followed.
> Nowhere in the above does it say that we are trying to create a culture of "These types of devices are better than those" - or that "you are frowned upon if you vape that". Please get those ideas out of your mind. That is not what we are trying to do.
> 
> If a few so called "high enders" make wonderful posts of their glorious looking mods, don't feel shy or intimidated to share your experiences of your vaping devices. I have been on this forum for a long time and have shared my humble Evod and SubTank Mini probably more times than I can remember - and I have never felt prouder.
> 
> Be proud, enjoy the journey, no matter what.


 
@Silver i completely agree with you. most of the people here is here because of the mutual love of vaping. I think one of the issues is that recently there is a perception amongst us plebs on the forum that the holy high horse alliance looks down and berates the clone commoners. But lets not say anything untowards any HE or Authentic items.

Some holy army members of whom i might add owned and sold clones in the past.

As a said each to their own and its a open forum.


Just an observation , I might be completely out of line of course.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Blu_Marlin

incredible_hullk said:


> 100% agree @Silver we mustn't forget that we here for all vapers... a year ago when I joined this was a warm welcoming forum where people aren't afraid to ask the stupid questions and learn.
> 
> My perception and imho that has changed and I am seeing a lot less of the intro and basic vape chats- the last thing we want to do is alienate folk. Previously a normal atty new product post would last forever, look at the sm25 thread, today it's not happening.
> 
> I get HE vs non HE is emotive, so is clone vs auth. Honestly I miss the chit chat the forum used to have about the normal stuff that everyone uses. Yes we have the threads abt the predator and kylin etc but it just feels different.
> 
> Sometimes I think what would I feel if I joined today... and sometimes I think if new vapers think we a bunch of pretentious folk. If I joined today my reaction would not be the same like a year ago.
> 
> Disagree, thumbs down me guys but it's just my 0,02 ohms worth.



Just a word of advice @incredible_hullk . I hope you are not planing on using that "0.02 ohms worth" on a mech mod. We take battery safety very seriously here.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 4


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## incredible_hullk

Blu_Marlin said:


> Just a word of advice @incredible_hullk . I hope you are not planing on using that "0.02 ohms worth" on a mech mod. We take battery safety very seriously here.


Nice one @Blu_Marlin no no no... @Silver quotes on battery safety will forever resonate...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Schnappie

incredible_hullk said:


> 100% agree @Silver we mustn't forget that we here for all vapers... a year ago when I joined this was a warm welcoming forum where people aren't afraid to ask the stupid questions and learn.
> 
> My perception and imho that has changed and I am seeing a lot less of the intro and basic vape chats- the last thing we want to do is alienate folk. Previously a normal atty new product post would last forever, look at the sm25 thread, today it's not happening.
> 
> I get HE vs non HE is emotive, so is clone vs auth. Honestly I miss the chit chat the forum used to have about the normal stuff that everyone uses. Yes we have the threads abt the predator and kylin etc but it just feels different.
> 
> Sometimes I think what would I feel if I joined today... and sometimes I think if new vapers think we a bunch of pretentious folk. If I joined today my reaction would not be the same like a year ago.
> 
> Disagree, thumbs down me guys but it's just my 0,02 ohms worth.


I agree with you, I do miss those chit chats about a certain tank that we all can talk about etc..
I think also a big reason for this is the insane speed at which new products hit the market these days and how vastly it has expanded. One moment you want to discuss a new tank and tommorow there is something new or better. And I am talking non HE here.

What also caught my attention is how the juice reviews are slowing down, because there is so much juices coming out we dont have time anymore to focus on a juice we just tried. I am one of the culprits, I loved doing reviews on juices and it stopped from my side even though I tried a lot of juices since my last review. Plus I blaze so fast through a bottle by the time I can put my thoughts down on a juice I am already on something new. There is just so much out there.

I think this market has become hard to keep up with. I myself am personally trying to scale down and gently get off the hype bandwagon. I love to read people's impressions on juices and hardware and I would encourage guys to please review if they have time and there is no reviews on it yet. Its part of what made this forum special to me.

This is my opinion and with regards to HE and non HE, I believe both have their place, but both also deserve equal attention and consideration so that people at both ends of the scale can participate and make informed choices.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 4


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## Paulie

Vaping is definitely a Journey and i can admit that i sometimes want to travel on the whole of that yellow brick road and test everything lol. I have both and what would probably surprise you all is im using a R500 dripper on a 1K-2k mod most of my vape days these days although it is nice sometimes to take one or 2 of the HE out for a test run  You dont need HE just find what suits your vape style and get your ADV Juice sorted then u ready to teach the smokers how its done

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 4 | Winner 1


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## Blu_Marlin

I`m glad I passed over HE and went straight to SHE. I`m coining that term. A quick Google search reveals nothing about SHE so in light of what @Takie said about a group of experienced vapers somewhere on the interwebs who band together to determine what is classified as HE gear I am starting my own SHE group. Send me your BBs, Gepettos and SVAs for evaluation and admission to the SHE group. Since I don`t have a FB account you can send me a PM here on ECIGSSA.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Creative 1


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## Blu_Marlin

Paulie said:


> Vaping is definitely a Journey and i can admit that i sometimes want to travel on the whole of that yellow brick road and test everything lol. I have both and what would probably surprise you all is im using a R500 dripper on a 1K-2k mod most of my vape days these days although it is nice sometimes to take one or 2 of the HE out for a test run  You dont need HE just find what suits your vape style and *get your ADV Juice sorted* then u ready to teach the smokers how its done


Easy for you to say @Paulie You just put a spanner in my vaping works with Coco and Peachy by Affiliation.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Dewald

Very interesting thread. I don't comment on here often, but visiting the forum has become a daily habit of mine. To the point that my wife kaks on me for being on here so much.

Lately though, it has become a bit boring, most action is on the vape mail thread and the ever-awesome diy stuff. Gone are the days where I could read about the non-HE tanks that are coming out, and tips and tricks on using it.

Is it HE's fault? Perhaps, because everything else now seems to be not worthy. But that is so only because of the way HE is being made out to be. We are being told we are vaping "TATAs", that our normal gear is not even close in comparison to what is out there. Of course people will hold their optimism back when they get a new "TATA".

No matter what everyone claims, HE is very elitist. Had it not been, this thread would not have existed as nobody would really have the emotions to actually feel that it should be created / commented on. How shitty is it to compare the majority of users on here's gear to TATAs, to ask whether they "vape bro" because they have different opinions? Going all out on clones while months prior you yourself posted lekker vape mail pics of your new clones, then selling them in the classies. Making dough and "stealing" IP. Suddenly we can't mention clones anymore because we are kak thieves.

That whole attitude, to me, is what is wrong with HE. Buy the stuff, it is your right, but don't make us feel kak for not being able to afford it, nor the clone buyers etc. Funny thing is that you don't see this childishness from the manufacturers. The guys from The Attysmith are all gents and I'd like to think they would not want this "exclusive" crap being pulled by people representing them on these forums. The mudslinging can be left for vape court where the justice warriors can show off their superiority.

Besides my rant, I'll continue pissing off my wife by being on here more than a teenager visits the loo.

Reactions: Winner 10


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## Ash

I was always under the impression that these forums is about introducing new RTa/rda/rdta/mods/squonker etc... to everyone here. I for example was 90% happy with my vaping gear. I have accumulated many mods and tanks over the years, and the reason for that was because i was in search for the 1 rta that would tick every box. So it was buy and try. While there are many tanks that i used were really good, it has had some flaws to them that would irritate me. 

Then came along @Rob Fisher with his grand review about the skyline. After reading his review i was led to believe that this is RTA i was looking for. However price was an issue for me to spend over 2k on a tank was pure madness but, BUT, it could be what i was after. I took the plunge based on such a good review. And here we are today. The skyline is the rta i was searching for throughout my vaping life. 

While there are many reviews be it general devices or he, it is what is, a review for you to decide in which way you want to move. Owning a skyline does not make me a snob or see any other vaper less of what they are, a vaping buddy. 

Reviews like this has helped me find my happiness to which i am very grateful for. My take on this read the reviews if you wish. You may find that diamond in the hay stack. And if you don't like a certain post threads, just don't click on that link.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Blu_Marlin

Onto a more serious note. This forum has a wonderful community with one thing in common, the love of vaping. It’s made up of a vast array of people from all walks of life and each to their own. I mostly limit my posts to the BF threads as that’s what I vape on exclusively these days and that’s where I can add value. I don`t own any HE gear or any new gear for that matter since last year September but I enjoy reading the HE threads as much as I love reading the non HE posts.There are more non HE vapers here than HE vapers so post and “engage”.


I started vaping with a TWISP that was gifted to me. When I wanted to upgrade the thought of spending R1000 on a mod and tank, at that time, had me scratching my head and debating whether or not it was worth the cost. Needless to say I’ve since gone down that rabbit hole in search of utopia.


The thought of out laying R2000 for a tank might seem excessive to most but, and bear with me here, if you are after the best RTA vape and that R2000 tank is 10% better than other tanks out there at the moment, whether it be fact, perception or opinion, it’s still a 10% better vape to the person using that RTA. I love cars and to me F1 is the epitome of automotive development. I would bet my years salary (which is not much by the way) that if Ferrari could get a 10% increase in straight line speed by spending millions of $s on new tech/development they would. So why wouldn’t a vaper, who is an enthusiast and can afford it, not do the same (not the millions but the R2000)?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Silver

Ash said:


> Then came along @Rob Fisher with his grand review about the skyline



I liked what you said in your post above @Ash - i.e. Read what you want and go for what works for you.

But i am picking up on that sentence I quoted above

What I have observed is that our dear Skipper @Rob Fisher has in many ways been such a positive influence on many of us - way before the Skyline and HE gear!

In the "early days" it was @Andre's dedication on the *Reo* followed by Robs almost infinite enthusiasm that got me into the Reos. Thank heavens for that. I still have them and love them a few years later.

Then Rob brought up the whole *Melo3 Mini / Pico* combo. And remember when he tried almost every ceramic coil on the planet.... Literally. What a journey that was and i learnt a fortune, am still so pleased with my white Pico. I love it. Not so mad anymore about the Melo3 mini but i still use it occasionally.

Then it was the *Serpent Mini 25*. Rob spotted this one well. I was very late to it but it does have amazing flavour for fruity menthols. I still have mine and use it sometimes.

And then the *Skyline* - and now the *Billet Box*. Rob seems to have found a place that works for him - for now. So when folk say that there isnt much talk about normal gear anymore, i dont think its because anyone frowns on it - we are all free to comment on and review anything we like. But our Skipper has found a new side to vaping and he was a major commentator on so much non HE gear.

Aside from all that Rob has done for us as a member of the A&M team, he has shown us the way on so many things - and has made it incredibly fun and humourous to follow. Sometimes painful to keep up.

*Rob, please dont stop what you do. Even if some of the gear you are using now is almost impossible to get. I will always be thankful for what you have done and for all the Ramblings and banter on a daily basis.* And I am watching what you are posting very carefully to choose my next stop on this amazing journey

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 10 | Winner 1


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## Gizmo

Let me throw in my 2c here.

I personally don't really care about HE. Never have. I have a few reasons. There are 3 points that frankly bug me I will list them below:


I very rarely find them as "wow" as experience as what HE people seem to claim.
The devices are generally over priced with low end chipsets ( focus is on MTL vapers - so called sophisticated vapers )
HE is less about innovation and more about rarity of device ( small batches / quick sellouts - raises prices and demand )
Now myself, I am a very simple vaper. I know what I like and dislike. There is no way in hell someone can sway me to buy R9000+- device unless it is nothing short of a profound vaping experience difference to what I am currently using. Which in what I have found, has never been the case. Each HE device I have tried has been better in some aspects / worse in others. Are they innovative, insanely better. NOPE!

I am semi high wattage vaper who enjoys DL hits of around 65-80w. I love vaping a Smok Big Baby Beast on Battlestar. Yup, that's my go to costing less then R2000 . I am not ashamed of it. Its what I enjoy vaping.

I also do not need to hold a vape to impress people. I impress in other areas of my life, I cant see the value in a device that will loose more money then you can imagine once its lost its "high demand / must buy phase" I am watch guy. I love watches, I could spend thousands upon thousands on highend watches. But vapes no. I dont get it.

The core of it is that the HE scene does not give enough value to me. I am not here to make the HE scene take offense, I am just saying that the value for me is limited. I see what people see in them and why they enjoy them see the value ( rarity, the exclusivity etc ). I have other areas of my life where I spend silly amounts of money on things that most people would look at me strangely. But that makes me happy. HE does nothing for me. All I ask of the HE community is to not be Elitist, be a part of the standard commercial device discussions as well.







We are all in this for the ultimate aim to stay away from smoking.

Reactions: Like 10 | Winner 10


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## Ash

Silver said:


> I liked what you said in your post above @Ash - i.e. Read what you want and go for what works for you.
> 
> But i am picking up on that sentence I quoted above
> 
> What I have observed is that our dear Skipper @Rob Fisher has in many ways been such a positive influence on many of us - way before the Skyline and HE gear!
> 
> In the "early days" it was @Andre's dedication on the Reo followed by Robs almost infinite enthusiasm that got me into the Reos. Thank heavens for that. I still have them and love them a few years later.
> 
> Then Rob brought up the whole Melo3 Mini / Pico combo. And remember when he tried almost every ceramic coil on the planet.... Literally. What a journey that was and i learnt a fortune, am still so pleased with my white Pico. I love it. Not so mad anymore about the Melo3 mini but i still use it occasionally.
> 
> Then it was the Serpent Mini 25. Rob spotted this one well. I was very late to it but it does have amazing flavour for fruity menthols. I still have mine and use it sometimes.
> 
> And then the Skyline - and now the Billet Box. Rob seems to have found a place that works for him - for now. So when folk say that there isnt much talk about normal gear anymore, i dont think its because anyone frowns on it - we are all free to comment on and review anything we like. But our Skipper has found a new side to vaping and he was a major commentator on so much non HE gear.
> 
> Aside from all that Rob has done for us as a member of the A&M team, he has shown us the way on so many things - and has made it incredibly fun and humourous to follow. Sometimes painful to keep up.
> 
> Rob, dont stop what you do. Even if some of the gear you are using now is almost impossible to get. I will always be thankful for what you have done and for all the Ramblings and banter on a daily basis. And I am watching what you are posting very carefully to choose my next stop on this amazing journey



100% Agree. A Huge thanks to you for your valuable and informative posts.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blu_Marlin

As too whether HE should be confined to the secret FB groups, I think not. While HE gear is unaffordable to me, bringing it to the forum has made it accessible to some fourmites who might not have had a chance otherwise.

Reactions: Agree 7


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## Gizmo

Blu_Marlin said:


> As too whether HE should be confined to the secret FB groups, I think not. While HE gear is unaffordable to me, bringing it to the forum has made it accessible to some fourmites who might not have had a chance otherwise.



I agree, the secret groups etc are such Bu******

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## BumbleBee

When HE hardware started making an appearance I was intrigued, such pretty shapes and colours, fine craftsmanship and rare materials. I found myself dreaming about them and thought I would own something like that when I'm big, it was kinda the same feeling as one got from putting up supercar posters on your walls as a kid. That initial feeling has passed now that HE has become "mainstream", I'm still very happy with the run of the mill mass produced stuff being produced in China. I've always wanted a Jaguar XJ220 but a baseline Nissan doublecab is my reality, and I truly believe that I am better for it. I get to play with a lot of the seemingly endless new mods, tanks and drippers hitting the market these days but my favourite set up is still my kaalgat paintless alien and the second hand crius plus I bought in the ecigssa classifieds.

At the end of the day, to each his own.

Reactions: Like 6 | Can relate 2


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## Kuhlkatz

I just struck gold. I'm dragging all the HE owners and discussions to a new forum called *HE*CIGSSA, so you can all stay here and be happy again !
Nooo, I'm just taking the proverbial 'Number One' 

Something to consider.
Sannie loves her crocheting and hobby of making fancy doilies in all of the colors of the visible spectrum. In fact she loves it sooo much she wants to share her love with everyone on the forum. Next thing we have a doily section and all of a sudden its filled with 'pretty pics' and cryptic messages like 'knit one, slip one, cross stitch over' or whatever, and everyone thinks it's just the rave.
Do I now :
a) Post anti-doily threads because everyone is going apesh..tuff over doilies vs naked, grainy polished wooden table tops ?
b) Silently appreciate Sannie's talent and her love for what she does from afar ?
c) Stay focused and stay the hell away from the doily threads before I pop a vein on my forehead ?
d) Get an angry mob together to demonstrate in front of Sannie's home ?
e) Keep polishing my wooden table tops, silently wondering how one of Sannie's exquisite doilies will look on it ?
f) a, d
g) b, c, e
i) All of the above ?

Just like with supercars, we can all appreciate their beauty & technology, yet know that most of us will never own or splurge out on one. We can however sit and silently tune and tweak our custom firmware and builds to outperform the nearest rival when seated next to one at the next vape meet. Just like an epic street race !
Point is, stop bickering and just get to the dang vape meets, or else you will never have the opportunity to try ! Or meet the fellow vapers in your area.

P.S. Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most...

Reactions: Like 3


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## ddk1979

True Experience.

1. I walked into a B&M store with my Twisp shortly after I started vaping feeling pretty proud of my device. Some customers in the store looked at it then almost giggled while nudging their friends. They were blowing big clouds so my twisp with its’ teeny-weeny clouds started feeling a little self-conscious compared to these mighty warriors.

2. At VapeCon 2016, I walked in with an Evod on a JustFog (ego-styled) battery as well as an iStick with a Nautilus mini. When the Nautilus mini ran out of juice, I grabbed the Evod and carried on. A group of okes actually turned around and laughed while pointing at me.

So, as @Dewald said, my “Tata” was feeling quite unworthy and there is now a reticence to talk about any “new Tata” that I may purchase, because I’m sure that like many, that’s all that I will most probably be able to afford. Despite this, I am comfortable with the gear I have and enjoy it proudly.

I sometimes “feel” (just my own feelings without substantive proof) that the spirit of assisting, advising, respectful disccourse, etc., that used to be a hallmark of ecigssa, has somehow been eroded and I sincerely hope that this spirit will re-emerge and shine brightly once again.

Just my 2 watts.

.

Reactions: Like 8 | Can relate 1


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## spiv

Without being facetious, why isn't HE gear cheap and easy to get?


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## daniel craig

spiv said:


> Without being facetious, why isn't HE gear cheap and easy to get?


Limited numbers; Very Rare; Not mass produced. The materials and processes that go into making 1 mod is a lot which is why the cost his high.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Thanks 1


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## aktorsyl

ddk1979 said:


> True Experience.
> 
> 1. I walked into a B&M store with my Twisp shortly after I started vaping feeling pretty proud of my device. Some customers in the store looked at it then almost giggled while nudging their friends. They were blowing big clouds so my twisp with its’ teeny-weeny clouds started feeling a little self-conscious compared to these mighty warriors.
> 
> 2. At VapeCon 2016, I walked in with an Evod on a JustFog (ego-styled) battery as well as an iStick with a Nautilus mini. When the Nautilus mini ran out of juice, I grabbed the Evod and carried on. A group of okes actually turned around and laughed while pointing at me.
> 
> So, as @Dewald said, my “Tata” was feeling quite a unworthy and there is now a reticence to talk about any “new Tata” that I may purchase, because I’m sure that like many, that’s all that I will most probably be able to afford. Despite this, I am comfortable with the gear I have and enjoy it proudly.
> 
> I sometimes “feel” (just my own feelings without substantive proof) that the spirit of assisting, advising, respectful disccourse, etc., that used to be a hallmark of ecigssa, has somehow been eroded and I sincerely hope that this spirit will re-emerge and shine brightly once again.
> 
> Just my 2 watts.
> 
> .


Oh man. Elitism like what you've experienced at those meets I just cannot stand  Sorry that you had to go through that crap.

You might recall my post in another thread where I made it quite clear, when someone listed a pet peeve as "newbies asking for help without doing proper research", that who the hell do we think we are to pull up our noses and shun a prospective new vaper? Like we never needed advice or guidance in the beginning. I honestly, honestly don't understand it. But it's human nature and you find cliques like that everywhere.

Having said that, I'm fairly new on ECIGSSA but I must say that I haven't really noticed a "clique" on here. I'm an easy-going guy and so far I get along swell with everyone here - great bunch of people. I don't feel alienated or belittled by the HE posts (but then again, I haven't seen them all - some might've contained condescending phrasing that triggered this whole thing? I don't know).

But as a group of hobbyists (because vaping is more than a smoking replacement tool, it is an actual hobby), we can't really afford to bicker amongst ourselves, surely. We're here to help, advise and support each other - to get excited for each other's new purchases, to get jealous over each other's vapemail (I mean that in a good way in this context), and to grumble about anti-nicotine legislation together.

That's what this forum is intended for, and so far that's how I'm experiencing it. 99% of the time.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Paulie

We all very lucky that @Rob Fisher gets to try all cool stuff out for us that way we can get it tested before we have to take plunge! I know he has helped me a lot in HE and I love his and other Vaper's on here enthusiasm ! Vaping just rocks in all formats let's just all agree on that  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 7 | Thanks 1


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## Feliks Karp

ddk1979 said:


> True Experience.
> 
> 1. I walked into a B&M store with my Twisp shortly after I started vaping feeling pretty proud of my device. Some customers in the store looked at it then almost giggled while nudging their friends. They were blowing big clouds so my twisp with its’ teeny-weeny clouds started feeling a little self-conscious compared to these mighty warriors.
> 
> 2. At VapeCon 2016, I walked in with an Evod on a JustFog (ego-styled) battery as well as an iStick with a Nautilus mini. When the Nautilus mini ran out of juice, I grabbed the Evod and carried on. A group of okes actually turned around and laughed while pointing at me.



True story here: People who find it funny that you are using something you enjoy or can only afford have shitty tiny lives. Don't give them the satisfaction of feeling bad about what you want to or can afford to use, because then they will have nothing to buffer them from the fact that they are but a shit stain on the heel of life's shoe.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 4


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## DotDubb

This is a interesting thread. Here is my take on it all. 

I'm still new to the forum and to vaping, but I learned a lot from this forum since I got interested in vaping. 

I started doing vape research around 3 weeks before I bought my first kit. The forum guided me and I ended up buying my first kit off the forum. Smok H-Priv mod with a Smok TFV8 cloud beast tank. I was reading so many topics, especially all the topics that us noobs created and the experienced guys replied. 

I must say that I feel very welcome here since my first post and I really enjoy logging on daily. 

I agree that the juice reviews are slacking lately, I spent most of my time there as a beginner and so far most of my money on trying juices. 

The HE section is amazing to me, I love reading about it as I would have never even known about those mods. 

I'm 45days smoke free today, which is the most important. I love vaping and I got a ton of people into vaping so far and off the stickies. 

Vape on. 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 9 | Winner 3


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## Silver

ddk1979 said:


> True Experience.
> 
> 1. I walked into a B&M store with my Twisp shortly after I started vaping feeling pretty proud of my device. Some customers in the store looked at it then almost giggled while nudging their friends. They were blowing big clouds so my twisp with its’ teeny-weeny clouds started feeling a little self-conscious compared to these mighty warriors.
> 
> 2. At VapeCon 2016, I walked in with an Evod on a JustFog (ego-styled) battery as well as an iStick with a Nautilus mini. When the Nautilus mini ran out of juice, I grabbed the Evod and carried on. A group of okes actually turned around and laughed while pointing at me.
> 
> So, as @Dewald said, my “Tata” was feeling quite a unworthy and there is now a reticence to talk about any “new Tata” that I may purchase, because I’m sure that like many, that’s all that I will most probably be able to afford. Despite this, I am comfortable with the gear I have and enjoy it proudly.
> 
> I sometimes “feel” (just my own feelings without substantive proof) that the spirit of assisting, advising, respectful disccourse, etc., that used to be a hallmark of ecigssa, has somehow been eroded and I sincerely hope that this spirit will re-emerge and shine brightly once again.
> 
> Just my 2 watts.
> 
> .



@ddk1979 , sorry about what happened at VapeCon2016 with regard to the people laughing at your Evod.

From my side I think it was very special that you could make it for that event , all the way from Cape Town. and I enjoyed meeting you for the first time and having a chat. 

For the record my istick50/subtank Mini lasted me the entire day at VapeCon. Well the battery is legendary, so it would last two days easily, but the tank is also amazing and reliable - and very economical. No one laughed at my tank and even if they did, i probably would have laughed back, watching them refill about 20 times. Hehe. No prizes for guessing what will likely be in my paw for VapeCon 2017

Reactions: Like 5


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## Silver

Thanks for your posts above @aktorsyl and @DotDubb 
It is great feedback

Most importantly I am happy that you feel welcome and have learned from the forum - to improve your vaping. That to me is the heart of this forum and long may it continue....

Point taken about the slowdown in juice reviews... We will note that and consider how to improve. I have such good intentions of continuing with my own juice reviews - i have just been very busy of late with so many things that my time is very scarce...


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## Alex

My stripped Alien mod, coupled with the original OBS crius kicks ass. 


Nobody, besides ourselves really gives a rats ass about our vape setup. Whatever works best to keep you off cigarettes is all that matters.

Sincerely
Alex

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 4 | Can relate 2


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## Huffapuff

Each to his own, in vaping as in life. 

The HE game is a divisive one - that's half the point of HE: I have it and you don't, I could get it and you couldn't. However, it's exclusivity is no guarantee of quality or performance. That's why it's called high _end _and not high_ quality _or high_ performance. _There is HE gear that is faulty or finicky and that can be matched in performance by many mainstream items._ 
_
There isn't much HE gear I would want to buy, not because I can't get it or can't afford it, but because I don't believe it provides value for money. That's just me - I'm more of a practical person. 

I certainly don't want to stop seeing HE gear being posted and discussed here, I would never have known about the HE side of things if it wasn't for @Rob Fisher and his enthusiasm for it. I may think that most of the stab wood mods look ridiculous, but I still want to look!

But I believe that any of us who feels kak about themselves or their gear after checking out a HE post is being disingenuous with themselves - nobody can make you feel bad, that's your own reaction. Someone else has decided to prioritize spending their money on HE gear, but that's all - it doesn't mean they're special/better. 

As long as we're vaping and sharing our experiences with each other, that's all that matters.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 9 | Winner 2


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## spiv

daniel craig said:


> Limited numbers; Very Rare; Not mass produced. The materials and processes that go into making 1 mod is a lot which is why the cost his high.



So if it was exactly the same product, produced to the exact same spec and was easier to get (still expensive though), it would not be considered high end?

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Comrad Juju

Well not sure if this was mentioned but last night Craig from @SirVape mentioned that he got in trouble for importing the sxk BB. 

Just wondering if this was from BB or actual members of the forum/ Vaping community in general.

I first learned of the BB on the forum and started hunting a authentic but R10k is above and beyond my budget. The guys from @SirVape actually gave me a more affordable option and in my opinion no fowl was done as the BB is so hard to get even if you can afford it the chance of getting one is really slim due to the small amount being released every two week.

The is unfortunately the same problem with a lot of HE vaping gear. In my opinion a lot of the he guys is keeping there production limited to put a huge price tag on their products.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## WELIHF

I personally don't care for labelling a product as HE or not. 
If it is good value for money then I'll buy it, be it a Pico, BB, SM or ESG.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lee

Comrad Juju said:


> Well not sure if this was mentioned but last night Craig from @SirVape mentioned that he got in trouble for importing the sxk BB.
> 
> Just wondering if this was from BB or actual members of the forum/ Vaping community in general.
> 
> I first learned of the BB on the forum and started hunting a authentic but R10k is above and beyond my budget. The guys from @SirVape actually gave me a more affordable option and in my opinion no fowl was done as the BB is so hard to get even if you can afford it the chance of getting one is really slim due to the small amount being released every two week.
> 
> The is unfortunately the same problem with a lot of HE vaping gear. In my opinion a lot of the he guys is keeping there production limited to put a huge price tag on their products.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting... and here all along Thought it was @Sir Vape that blocked our group buy...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Daniel

Comrad Juju said:


> Well not sure if this was mentioned but last night Craig from @SirVape mentioned that he got in trouble for importing the sxk BB.



Not to derail the thread or cause further "controversy"

Why would he be in trouble for that ? Plenty vendors import clones without any issues ?
Could it be due to the recent issues with a certain group buy ? Seems a bit too coincidental ...... 

I for one commend them for bringing such a great device to the masses.
Currently own two SXK BRRT Boxes , one from a "private" group buy and one from Sir Vape .... there the cat's out the bag

Reactions: Like 3


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## Comrad Juju

Daniel said:


> Not to derail the thread or cause further "controversy"
> 
> Why would he be in trouble for that ? Plenty vendors import clones without any issues ?
> Could it be due to the recent issues with a certain group buy ? Seems a bit too coincidental ......
> 
> I for one commend them for bringing such a great device to the masses.
> Currently own two SXK BRRT Boxes , one from a "private" group buy and one from Sir Vape .... there the cat's out the bag



Well it was mentioned in his stream last night was a bit of a shock for me. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1


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## boxerulez

Daniel said:


> Not to derail the thread or cause further "controversy"
> 
> Why would he be in trouble for that ? Plenty vendors import clones without any issues ?
> Could it be due to the recent issues with a certain group buy ? Seems a bit too coincidental ......
> 
> I for one commend them for bringing such a great device to the masses.
> Currently own two SXK BRRT Boxes , one from a "private" group buy and one from Sir Vape .... there the cat's out the bag



Becaue people with a lot of sway obviously got him over the fingers... not that their sway matters at all, because they no longer push products available at the sirs, so if I was a sir, I would just shrug their reprimands off.

And even if it was trouble from BBVapor themselves, who gives a shit, SV does not stock authentics anyway.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DoubleD

Sooo this is the reason we dont see the return of the sxk bb lol how sad...

Reactions: Agree 2 | Can relate 2


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## incredible_hullk

DoubleD said:


> Sooo this is the reason we dont see the return of the sxk bb lol how sad...



Sorry what have I missed @DoubleD @Comrad Juju ...


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## zadiac

My aim is not to WOW vapers, but to make smokers curious so that they ask questions and I then answer them and a lot of the time, I sway them into the right direction. I don't give a crap what vapers think of my setup. My aim is smokers. Simple as that.

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Deckie

That's actually sad for vaping in SA - SA vapers cut their teeth on clones because they had to, now clones are looked down upon. I for one feel that I don't have the right to tell anyone how to run their businesses. A big problem in this country actually, vendors offer a service, supply a market that needs their products & then those exact same needy consumers now feel they have the right to dictate how they do it - yes to a certain extent they can, but not to the extent of deciding & dictating their inventory.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## wikus

boxerulez said:


> Becaue people with a lot of sway obviously got him over the fingers... not that their sway matters at all, because they no longer push products available at the sirs, so if I was a sir, I would just shrug their reprimands off.
> 
> And even if it was trouble from BBVapor themselves, who gives a shit, SV does not stock authentics anyway.


Obviously some HE users don't want the sxk BB to take of to much, if every second guy has one it will ruin the HE aspect of it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Daniel

Silver said:


> If your comment refers to the recent derailed Skyline Group Buy thread, and how certain posts were moved into another thread - well that is just to keep that original Skyline Group Buy thread on topic.
> 
> I have offered to rename that other thread, but it seems this thread has taken centre stage on this topic now.
> 
> Anyone is free to have opinions on any gear - be it high end or not. As long as people don't get personal or offensive - and as long as the general forum principles and spirit are kept in tact - then there is no problem.



See now you mentioned "gear" so we not allowed to comment or question a certain members conduct ?


wikus said:


> Obviously some HE users don't want the sxk BB to take of to much, if every second guy has one it will ruin the HE aspect of it.



I think that ship has sailed ...... no exact numbers but definitely more SXK version out there in SA than the authentics

Reactions: Agree 1


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## incredible_hullk

wikus said:


> Obviously some HE users don't want the sxk BB to take of to much, if every second guy has one it will ruin the HE aspect of it.


My life, my money I will get it from China @wikus ... I will get another one

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 3


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## Deckie

incredible_hullk said:


> My life, my money I will get it from China @wikus ... I will get another one


I'll do so as well without skipping a heart beat

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Daniel

Deckie said:


> I'll do so as well without skipping a heart beat



Ditto , but I have two now .....

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Genosmate

SAVaper said:


> Ok time for me to come out 2.....
> What is HE?



Well as you asked ...........Its a Personal Pronoun

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 6


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## Deckie

Daniel said:


> Ditto , but I have two now .....


You need 5


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## Daniel

Deckie said:


> You need 5



LOL , I'll just buy a bunch of Borros and Exo Clones , then whatever juice I feel like have it ready to go with a fresh wicked build ..... 

No one "needs" 5


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## Deckie

Daniel said:


> LOL , I'll just buy a bunch of Borros and Exo Clones , then whatever juice I feel like have it ready to go with a fresh wicked build .....
> 
> No one "needs" 5


I need a few more Exocets.

Reactions: Can relate 1


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## skola

Deckie said:


> I need a few more Exocets.


I could do with a few more Borros and Exocets as well.... Groupbuy?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## incredible_hullk

skola said:


> I could do with a few more Borros and Exocets as well.... Groupbuy?


I'm game @skola

Reactions: Like 1


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## Andre

Personally I have no problems with clones if no legal rights are infringed, but I respect and accept the point of view of people who think otherwise. 

Fact is, if members do not sing the praises and show the functionality or point out the problems with authentic stuff, be it HE or not, I might not even have considered looking at the clones if I could not afford the real thing.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Lee

skola said:


> I could do with a few more Borros and Exocets as well.... Groupbuy?


Nope! you'll be told to do it off the forum...

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Lee

It will be a sad day when one or a few people on this forum, have enough might to control what & where we buy vape gear from....


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## NickT

There's a certain air of snobbishness that comes across from a few of the HE owners, and that alone makes me steer faaaaaaar away from investing in anything of that ilk. Much like I did a couple of years ago with the REO hype. 

Each to his own, I guess. Though I personally have no interest in getting into that game. I don't understand a R7000 mod, run by a chip that will, chances are, be old and defunct in 6 months time.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## skola

Lee said:


> Nope! you'll be told to do it off the forum...


But there's a group buy sub forum where group buys are organised.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Deckie

Only for authentics as I gathered from the sxk B.B. Group buy

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lee

skola said:


> But there's a group buy sub forum where group buys are organised.


Well as what happened a couple of months ago.... you'll be asked to take it down!

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Rob Fisher

Guys... there is no rule against doing a group buy for clones... just do it in the group buy section.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Attie

I normally try and refrain from commenting on posts like these.

Such is life and each to their own.
It’s your choice where and on what you spend your hard earned cash.
Some spend it on expensive cars, clothing and electronics.

Do you feel ashamed when walking around at your local supermarket in so called ‘’no name brand’’ clothing?
Do you feel ashamed when driving on the freeway and a Ferarri comes flying past you?

NO, so why feel ashamed of posting ‘’non HE’’ devices on the forum?

As for the price point on ‘’HE’’ devices.

To design, manufacture and test devices take time and money.
Some ‘’HE’’ companies take months to develop a device.
From 3D rendering, to manufacturing prototypes, testing and making changes where it is flawed.

I was recently told by a reliable source, that to manufacture a single deck of the ESG Skyline RTA takes around 20-30min.
Just for one deck.

As we all know time = money.

Most ‘’HE’’ companies are a 1, maybe 2 man operation.
Factories in China can push out 100’s if not 1000’s of units within the same time frame, thus having a lower cost.

Just take a look at iJoy for example, how many versions of their RDTA has been released?
A total of 5 if I am not mistaken in the time frame of 1 year

Why, because they use us (the consumers) as their guinea pigs, to test their products and then they start fixing any issues.

Kylin RTA by Vandy Vapes, not even on the local market for 3 weeks, already a newer/ updated version being released.

This does not happen in the ‘’HE’’ market, simply because they take their time with testing prototypes and in the end this cost money.
I stand to be corrected, but the NarDA has been around for 2 years without any revision, and is still to date a very sought after RDA, fetching crazy prices ranging between 300-500$.

I’m not here to bash anyone or the devise they use, just respect other people and their choices.
There is no need for hate, buy what you want and can afford, and enjoy it,

As simple as that.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4 | Winner 6


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## incredible_hullk

If mike vapes can take the best features of different atty and the world goes gaga then I will exercise my free choice


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## Paulie

Attie said:


> I normally try and refrain from commenting on posts like these.
> 
> Such is life and each to their own.
> It’s your choice where and on what you spend your hard earned cash.
> Some spend it on expensive cars, clothing and electronics.
> 
> Do you feel ashamed when walking around at your local supermarket in so called ‘’no name brand’’ clothing?
> Do you feel ashamed when driving on the freeway and a Ferarri comes flying past you?
> 
> NO, so why feel ashamed of posting ‘’non HE’’ devices on the forum?
> 
> As for the price point on ‘’HE’’ devices.
> 
> To design, manufacture and test devices take time and money.
> Some ‘’HE’’ companies take months to develop a device.
> From 3D rendering, to manufacturing prototypes, testing and making changes where it is flawed.
> 
> I was recently told by a reliable source, that to manufacture a single deck of the ESG Skyline RTA takes around 20-30min.
> Just for one deck.
> 
> As we all know time = money.
> 
> Most ‘’HE’’ companies are a 1, maybe 2 man operation.
> Factories in China can push out 100’s if not 1000’s of units within the same time frame, thus having a lower cost.
> 
> Just take a look at iJoy for example, how many versions of their RDTA has been released?
> A total of 5 if I am not mistaken in the time frame of 1 year
> 
> Why, because they use us (the consumers) as their guinea pigs, to test their products and then they start fixing any issues.
> 
> Kylin RTA by Vandy Vapes, not even on the local market for 3 weeks, already a newer/ updated version being released.
> 
> This does not happen in the ‘’HE’’ market, simply because they take their time with testing prototypes and in the end this cost money.
> I stand to be corrected, but the NarDA has been around for 2 years without any revision, and is still to date a very sought after RDA, fetching crazy prices ranging between 300-500$.
> 
> I’m not here to bash anyone or the devise they use, just respect other people and their choices.
> There is no need for hate, buy what you want and can afford, and enjoy it,
> 
> As simple as that.



Here Here JP!! Well said!!

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Blu_Marlin

Comrad Juju said:


> Well not sure if this was mentioned but last night Craig from @SirVape mentioned that he got in trouble for importing the sxk BB.
> 
> Just wondering if this was from BB or actual members of the forum/ Vaping community in general.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It`s a pity the Sirs cannot reply/respond on this thread to clarify.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Rob Fisher

Blu_Marlin said:


> It`s a pity the Sirs cannot reply/respond on this thread to clarify.



So ask him in thier forum.


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## Blu_Marlin

spiv said:


> Without being facetious, *why isn't HE gear cheap and easy to get*?


Not always the case, well the easy to get part anyways. "Cheap" or not would be determined by the person buying it. The Psyclone Hadaly is considered HE gear (though I have not seen any documentation to that effect) and is/was widely available at quite a few of the supporting vendors.


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## Feliks Karp

Lee said:


> Well as what happened a couple of months ago.... you'll be asked to take it down!



Don't be such a ******* tease, show us please.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## spiv

Blu_Marlin said:


> Not always the case, well the easy to get part anyways. "Cheap" or not would be determined by the person buying it. The Psyclone Hadaly is considered HE gear (though I have not seen any documentation to that effect) and is/was widely available at quite a few of the supporting vendors.



Thanks  
Makes sense


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## Blu_Marlin

I would @Rob Fisher but I couldn`t be bothered TBH. Maybe "pity" was the wrong word as I was just trying to point out the obvious.


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## wikus

Rob Fisher said:


> Guys... there is no rule against doing a group buy for clones... just do it in the group buy section.


If I remember correctly that's not what was said


Feliks Karp said:


> Don't be such a ******* tease, show us please.


Things were said, posts were deleted, phone calls were made, and before the sun had set that day, "#underground #LE4lyfe" groups were formed off forum so as not to "displease" any forum members.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## boxerulez

incredible_hullk said:


> If mike vapes can take the best features of different atty and the world goes gaga then I will exercise my free choice


Well said! 

Isnt that just cloning?

In fact isnt every velocity deck out there a theft of IP?

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## boxerulez

Feliks Karp said:


> Don't be such a ******* tease, show us please.


https://www.ecigssa.co.za/group-buy-bb-sxk70-and-sxk-exocet.t35636/

Locked thread

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## GregF

FYI Sir Vape will have the SXK BB in a week or so again.

Reactions: Like 4


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## wikus

GregF said:


> FYI Sir Vape will have the SXK BB in a week or so again.


Will he stock the blue ones as swell?

Reactions: Like 3


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## GregF

wikus said:


> Will he stock the blue ones as swell?


I dont know what is coming in. There was just a whole lot of talk further up the thread and I thought why not just phone them and find out whats happening.

Reactions: Like 2 | Thanks 2


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## Feliks Karp

boxerulez said:


> https://www.ecigssa.co.za/group-buy-bb-sxk70-and-sxk-exocet.t35636/
> 
> Locked thread




That thread looks locked because it was cancelled though? Are you guys saying THE HE VAPE MAFIA shut it down?

Reactions: Funny 4 | Creative 1


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## Caramia

Deckie said:


> Only for authentics as I gathered from the sxk B.B. Group buy


But it is authentic... authentic SXK

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Scoob

Threads change, topics change, taste changes. I'm all about watching it unfold, and picking up a couple good deals along the way. 

Just because the HE stuff is on the minds of many on this forum, doesn't mean it will always be that way. TBH, as a vaper the past year of releases from china have been fairly boring, the predator isn't all that, the RX300 and GX350 are as big as a house, the new noisy cricket is an overprotective demon soccer mom, don't get me started on the Uwell Crown 2. It just seems more and more that watts need to go higher for cheap, and devices can be as shoddily put together as possible as long as they can reach 150watts+. (not that there haven't been HE things that I find lame too) Goon LP, Kodama Minikins. 

There are plenty of shapes and sizes, but for me, the smaller and more comfortable the better. Which I tend to only find on a more HE side of things (not always). Also the price difference isn't that insane. People save up for nice things they want, so we can't be putting them down when they finally get it, regardless of whether its a istick basic or Vicious Ant.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Daniel

Scoob said:


> Threads change, topics change, taste changes. I'm all about watching it unfold, and picking up a couple good deals along the way.
> 
> Just because the HE stuff is on the minds of many on this forum, doesn't mean it will always be that way. TBH, as a vaper the past year of releases from china have been fairly boring, the predator isn't all that, the RX300 and GX350 are as big as a house, the new noisy cricket is an overprotective demon soccer mom, don't get me started on the Uwell Crown 2. It just seems more and more that watts need to go higher for cheap, and devices can be as shoddily put together as possible as long as they can reach 150watts+. (not that there haven't been HE things that I find lame too) Goon LP, Kodama Minikins.
> 
> There are plenty of shapes and sizes, but for me, the smaller and more comfortable the better. Which I tend to only find on a more HE side of things (not always). Also the price difference isn't that insane. People save up for nice things they want, so we can't be putting them down when they finally get it, regardless of whether its a istick basic or Vicious Ant.



I do think the industry is moving away from these over powered monstrosities to AIO devices .... but it's a folly world and nothing makes sense in the vaping scene these days. Luckily you can ignore all of it and stick with your stalwarts ...... 

Price difference I beg to differ ...... just cause you slap some stabwood (and shyte quality at that) doesn't mean you can hike the price up by 50% .....

Reactions: Like 2


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## RichJB

The HE/non-HE discussion whooshes over my head as I have little interest in new hardware. Like all n00b vapers, I had to experiment with this unknown technology before finding what I liked. But I quite quickly found the gear I wanted (all LE) and settled on that. I've never sold any vape hardware and everything I've ever bought is still in mint condition and perfectly usable. I generally vape single coils in drippers at 25-40W. Almost any gear will satisfy that need so I'm happy with what I have. I might still get a Pico Squeeze squonker but meh, it's hard to get excited about it because I know already it's not going to be any great life-changing revelation. The main reason I want it is to avoid having to take a bottle of juice with me on the rare occasions when I vape away from home.

Otherwise I'll replace my current gear when it breaks, not before. I spent as little as possible on smoking and I've followed that same principle in vaping. Everybody must decide how they will spend their money. I just have other priorities than vape gear and make no excuses for that.

I still have concentrate FOMO because I rationalised that no matter how many concentrates I bought, I'd always be able to use them up as it's a consumable not an asset. DIY is also, for me, the most creative and satisfying aspect of vaping. But I soon reached a point where there is a very real risk of concentrates going off or losing potency before I can use them. So I've cut back greatly in that regard as well, and mostly just replace concentrates now. FOMO-free vaping is my happy place.

I've been to vape meets with my Pico and Velocity clone and can't say I've ever picked up any vibes from anybody. The only thing I've ever encountered is camaraderie, friendliness, passion for the hobby and a completely non-judgmental approach. So this animosity between the various groups is a bit baffling tbh.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1 | Can relate 2


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## Comrad Juju

Daniel said:


> I do think the industry is moving away from these over powered monstrosities to AIO devices .... but it's a folly world and nothing makes sense in the vaping scene these days. Luckily you can ignore all of it and stick with your stalwarts ......
> 
> Price difference I beg to differ ...... just cause you slap some stabwood (and shyte quality at that) doesn't mean you can hike the price up by 50% .....



 only 50% the minikin V2 stab is about x3


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Feliks Karp

RichJB said:


> I've been to vape meets with my Pico and Velocity clone and can't say I've ever picked up any vibes from anybody.



I totally slapped a "kick me" sign on your back.

Reactions: Funny 5 | Informative 1


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## RichJB

Well, I guess I deserved that after I sent my pet bee to torment you.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Schnappie

Feliks Karp said:


> I totally slapped a "kick me" sign on your back.


The biggest worry of division on this forum that worries me is the fued between you and @Stosta . I am really hoping this can be put to an end at the vapemeet after a good scrap

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Kuhlkatz

@Schnappie , there is no hope for peace. The last scrap went something like this :

Reactions: Funny 11


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## Effjh

I love the HE gear discussions on the forum, it guides me in what to search for next on FastTech.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 8 | Funny 9


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## incredible_hullk

Effjh said:


> I love the HE gear discussions on the forum, it guides me in what to search for next on FastTech.


Here here @Effjh just yesterday ordered 5 cbv2 for $14... yes 5 for $14... and couple Layman HE rdas

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## rogue zombie

What's HE? 

Wait... wait... I don't care. 

*just kidding*

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Clouds4Days

Hi peeps i dont want to get too involved in this thread but just want to say the reason my Group Buy was closed was not because of the BB being clones (although there were some members that had issues we were going to group buy clones none of those people were the forum admin team) .
The reason it was closed was because Sir Vape had just landed their batch of SXK BB and we did not want to step on any ones toes.

As far as LE vs HE goes , in the begining when all this HE gear started popping up on the forum i too wanted to be part of the action so i too can show off some shiny wood etc... But the more i sat and thought about it and researched, it did not make sense too me spending stupid amounts of money on something like a Vape Mod to sit at home (because i dont wanna scratch it) while i walk around with my cheapy Mods.

And besides that i am not gaining any advantage over any one spending 7k on a mod vaping on power mode vs the guy next to me on his R600 eleaf pico.

So my personal conclusion is if i wanna make a statement that my bank balance has 6 digits or more just sitting there and i am content with all my other luxuries in life ie: nice big house and sports car then maybe i will consider spending over 5k a shot on HE vape gear.

Reactions: Like 4 | Informative 1


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## Mando

Speaking of HE can anyone recommend a good HE tank and mod combo please? I know there's many but I've been keen on getting one but it never really meets my requirements. Dual 18650s or more, min 5ml rta. Mod must at at least be able to do 100w or more. Don't need many details. Maybe just a few names and links to description and where to buy them. Thank you

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


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## Rob Fisher

Dual 18650 - Vicious Ant Knight. 550J 200 watt.
Min 5ml Tank is a tall order for an HE Tank. The Sherman fits that bill but that's a tank if you like big builds and big power.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Mando

Rob Fisher said:


> Dual 18650 - Vicious Ant Knight. 550J 200 watt.
> Min 5ml Tank is a tall order for an HE Tank. The Sherman fits that bill but that's a tank if you like big builds and big power.
> View attachment 94298
> View attachment 94299


Thanks for your swift response uncle @Rob Fisher. It indeed looks great. What's your experience with it? And where do i buy it?

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


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## Rob Fisher

Mando said:


> Thanks for your swift response uncle @Rob Fisher. It indeed looks great. What's your experience with it? And where do i buy it?



Unfortunately @Mando you have to import both because no local vendors stock them. 

Vicious Ant Knight - http://viciousantonline.com/products-category/stabwood-collections/
Sherman - http://www.imperial-vape.co.uk/product/the-sherman-tank-28mm-rta/

The Sherman is out of stock but if you Google you may find a retailer with it in stock.

The Sherman was not for me because I prefer much calmer low power vape and for me the Skyline is the RTA of choice but it's biggest weakness is it's small tank and the speed it goes through the juice because the flavour is outstanding.

For a read up on the Sherman here is the link - https://www.ecigssa.co.za/sherman-rta.t32704/

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mando

Thank you @ uncle Rob Fisher. I will most definitely get me one of those devices and then consider getting the stabwoods. Flavor first clouds later lol

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lee

Mando said:


> Thanks for your swift response uncle @Rob Fisher. It indeed looks great. What's your experience with it? And where do i buy it?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


https://www.cloudloungevapery.co.za/collections/high-ends
You might like something on that site!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mando

Lee said:


> https://www.cloudloungevapery.co.za/collections/high-ends
> You might like something on that site!


Thank you @Lee those mods look great but many so bulky. I'll book mark it any break into a few houses before i buy

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rob Fisher

Mando said:


> Thank you @Lee those mods look great but many so bulky. I'll book mark it any break into a few houses before i buy



@Mando not true HE (because it's made in China and mass produced) but still a very nice option is the Stab Wood Minkin. It's also dual 18650.

https://www.sirvape.co.za/collections/new/products/new-kodama-v2-minikin-by-asmodus


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## Daniel

Mando said:


> Thank you @Lee those mods look great but many so bulky. I'll book mark it any break into a few houses before i buy
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk



Or go the Clone route (for attys) to try out before you buy

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## The_Ice

In my mind, this is the equivalent products in analogue-land:
HE: Cuban cigars
ME: A standard ciggie
Clone: A rollie

Vape what you want and can afford, as long as you don't smoke.
I've had some hard times and during them smoked great rollies, I've had some good times and during them smoked cubans.
Do with it what you like, I'm just glad my analogue days are over.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rob Fisher

Daniel said:


> Or go the Clone route (for attys) to try out before you buy



There is one big problem with that route @Daniel... I did that with the Rose 3 that was getting rave reviews worldwide and I tried a clone. That didn't end well. And back in the day I tried that with Kayfun Clones.... and there are 5 Kayfun clones in the gorge because they were all complete crap!

Granted some clones are better than others... and drippers are a lot easier to clone... but RTA's not so much... and I tried a Kayfun 5 clone... that too is in the gorge.


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## Hakhan

The_Ice said:


> In my mind, this is the equivalent products in analogue-land:
> HE: Cuban cigars
> ME: A standard ciggie
> Clone: A rollie
> 
> Vape what you want and can afford, as long as you don't smoke.
> I've had some hard times and during them smoked great rollies, I've had some good times and during them smoked cubans.
> Do with it what you like, I'm just glad my analogue days are over.


Cuban cigars are no longer considered HE since USA accepted them with open arms

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mando

The_Ice said:


> In my mind, this is the equivalent products in analogue-land:
> HE: Cuban cigars
> ME: A standard ciggie
> Clone: A rollie
> 
> Vape what you want and can afford, as long as you don't smoke.
> I've had some hard times and during them smoked great rollies, I've had some good times and during them smoked cubans.
> Do with it what you like, I'm just glad my analogue days are over.


Lol...no grey area in between? Like what would just a mod costing R1k be classified as? LE?

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## The_Ice

Mando said:


> Lol...no grey area in between? Like what would just a mod costing R1k be classified as? LE?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


Maybe that's like a winston or a chicago


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## Pixstar

Blu_Marlin said:


> Easy for you to say @Paulie You just put a spanner in my vaping works with Coco and Peachy by Affiliation.


Also my favorite two in the Affiliation line.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mando

The_Ice said:


> Maybe that's like a winston or a chicago


That's some expensive Chicago  

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Funny 1


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## GregF

I have tried to stay out of this as best I can because I can see it going sideways at some point....but this is my take on it.

When I started vaping I would purchase at least a mod a month, LE mods, trying different things, different tanks, different vaping styles, looking for "that" one thing that would keep me happy. This was my new hobby, it was fun and the whole "boys and their toys" was playing out big time.
Eventually I got my hands on a Reo and RM2. That was it, everything stopped. I found that I prefer MTL hits and I don't need megawatts to drive half of Iscor steel in my atty. This works for me. Will I purchase some new stuff down the line, for sure I will. I have found my happy place but that's not to say I don't want to play.
Bottom line, buy whatever rocks your boat, be it High End, Low End, clone, authentic, mod, mech, after all it's your money and your journey.
If you buy HE to look down on the Twisp user, I feel sorry for you because you are wasting your money, he is not smoking and quite happy with what he has, and shouldn't feel at all bad about it. You are not smoking but still looking for the next big thing to shove in his face.
I will give you one guess who the winner is in that scenario.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 8 | Winner 2


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## Mando

GregF said:


> I have tried to stay out of this as best I can because I can see it going sideways at some point....but this is my take on it.
> 
> When I started vaping I would purchase at least a mod a month, LE mods, trying different things, different tanks, different vaping styles, looking for "that" one thing that would keep me happy. This was my new hobby, it was fun and the whole "boys and their toys" was playing out big time.
> Eventually I got my hands on a Reo and RM2. That was it, everything stopped. I found that I prefer MTL hits and I don't need megawatts to drive half of Iscor steel in my atty. This works for me. Will I purchase some new stuff down the line, for sure I will. I have found my happy place but that's not to say I don't want to play.
> Bottom line, buy whatever rocks your boat, be it High End, Low End, clone, authentic, mod, mech, after all it's your money and your journey.
> If you buy HE to look down on the Twisp user, I feel sorry for you because you are wasting your money, he is not smoking and quite happy with what he has, and shouldn't feel at all bad about it. You are not smoking but still looking for the next big thing to shove in his face.
> I will give you one guess who the winner is in that scenario.


Gosh mate. I think your post began honest and has proper points, especially regarding the fact that one chooses to vape what he or she enjoys vaping. But to insinuate that people spend a pretty penny on HE devices simply to be better than his neighbor is not always the case. For example, I began at analogues switched to digital (twisp) and it was not enough for me. 

I did not simply want the healthier replication of the experience of smoking i wanted the feeling of vaping which in my mind is more than just MTL like you would a cigarette. Or at least thats what comes to mind when I hear the word vape. But to each his own.

Furthermore, HE is not there for the better off to trample on LE users. I believe it's there for you to own something unique. Which is what i get from Stabwood boxes as none of them look alike. It's all in the motion of participation in the VapeNation, it's progressive and HE is at the pinnacle of vaping at the moment. And you'll only know what that experience is once you've owned one. If you as a vape participant can't then you'll never know what it is but that doesn't discredit you because you are still part of the vaping society. 

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## GregF

Mando said:


> Gosh mate. I think your post began honest and has proper points, especially regarding the fact that one chooses to vape what he or she enjoys vaping. But to insinuate that people spend a pretty penny on HE devices simply to be better than his neighbor is not always the case. For example, I began at analogues switched to digital (twisp) and it was not enough for me.
> 
> I did not simply want the healthier replication of the experience of smoking i wanted the feeling of vaping which in my mind is more than just MTL like you would a cigarette. Or at least thats what comes to mind when I hear the word vape. But to each his own.
> 
> Furthermore, HE is not there for the better off to trample on LE users. I believe it's there for you to own something unique. Which is what i get from Stabwood boxes as none of them look alike. It's all in the motion of participation in the VapeNation, it's progressive and HE is at the pinnacle of vaping at the moment. And you'll only know what that experience is once you've owned one. If you as a vape participant can't then you'll never know what it is but that doesn't discredit you because you are still part of the vaping society.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


I am sorry if you took that the wrong way @Mando but I did say "IF" you buy a HE device to look down on others etc etc etc.
Yes I agree with you, some of those HE devices are lovely and I will probably have one (or two or three) some day.
Actually I do have a Reo, three mind you, and that is HE according to the HE classification.

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 1


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## SmokeyJoe

Lee said:


> https://www.cloudloungevapery.co.za/collections/high-ends
> You might like something on that site!


22k for a mod. What. In. The. Hell. I hope the thing will be able to give blow jobs for that price

Reactions: Funny 7


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## Silver

GregF said:


> I am sorry if you took that the wrong way @Mando but I did say "IF" you buy a HE device to look down on others etc etc etc.
> Yes I agree with you, some of those HE devices are lovely and I will probably have one (or two or three) some day.
> Actually I do have a Reo, three mind you, and that is HE according to the HE classification.



Reo/RM2 for the MTL win @GregF - am with you all the way!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## GregF

Hey @SmokeyJoe why the dislike. I can understand a disagree


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## Alex

Silver said:


> Reo/RM2 for the MTL win @GregF - am with you all the way!



Reo with a Nuppin is even better

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Silver

Alex said:


> Reo with a Nuppin is even better



Not for MTL @Alex, I am afraid. 
Restricted lung hit I agree it is awesome!


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## DoubleD

Alex said:


> Reo with a Nuppin is even better



Reo with O16 is even better'er

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## GregF

DoubleD said:


> Reo with O16 is even better'er


That OL16 is a fabulous little thing. You can adjust it to whatever vaping style suites you

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Kalashnikov

SmokeyJoe said:


> 22k for a mod. What. In. The. Hell. I hope the thing will be able to give blow jobs for that price


I just saw that one as well. Oh my word. Out of curiosity at the HE guys... Can you put these devices under insurance?


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## Rob Fisher

Kalashnikov said:


> I just saw that one as well. Oh my word. Out of curiosity at the HE guys... Can you put these devices under insurance?



Yes you can.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## The_Ice

Kalashnikov said:


> I just saw that one as well. Oh my word. Out of curiosity at the HE guys... Can you put these devices under insurance?


On that note, an american guy once claimed 12 insured cuban cigars that were destroyed in 12 separate small controlled fires (he smoked them)
He won the case ('Murica)
But was counter-sued and found guilty on 12 cases of arson.
If this is possible, I'm sure you can insure an HE Mod

Reactions: Funny 7 | Creative 1


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## Kalashnikov

The_Ice said:


> On that note, an american guy once claimed 12 insured cuban cigars that were destroyed in 12 separate small controlled fires (he smoked them)
> He won the case ('Murica)
> But was counter-sued and found guilty on 12 cases of arson.
> If this is possible, I'm sure you can insure an HE Mod


hahahahaha made my day


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## Ashley A

SAVaper said:


> Ok time for me to come out 2.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is HE?


I think in vaping terms it's like a "Halaal" or "Kosher" stamp in food terms. Could be relevant to some people and mean something and other people like me could care less if something is or isn't it, as long I can eat it and it's tasty.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ashley A

Alex said:


> Reo with a Nuppin is even better


Still rolling with mine as daily drivers years later and I've got and had tons and fancy, latest and greatest gear since then. Heck, I've got 2 of these setups. To me, that is high end (not the "HE" vaping stamp)

Reactions: Agree 3


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## haruspex

In my opinion the problem came in when it changed from discussing gear in general to separating the discussions into HE and LE. ("HIGH" end and "low" end). Though not initially intended to have this outcome, it is easy to see why labeling / classifying gear as "low end" might make some people feel as if their devices is "lesser / cheaper" in other people’s eyes. The moment you start classifying the similar items into different “classes” you open up a can of worms. Just have a look at the mess we face in our country because people are classified by race / colour and not as Humans / South Africans (among other things).

On top of the above, there are quite a lot of comments made in this forum that, not intended to knock anything down, seems as if they are talking down onto “LE” gear.

Comments like:

_“Just think if you work hard for many years … you may be able to afford one.”_
(From a HE mod thread. Now this can be seen as “My mod is not worth that much so it must be less of a mod than a HE mod")

_“I could have suggested you get a Billet Box and Exocet or a Phantom Mod with Skyline on top and that is still a great option... but there are tons of tanks around *but if I didn't have my high end stuff I would still be using a Serpent Mini 25*. The SM25 is a CLASSIC!”_
(The part in *BOLD* is the line that might leave the impression that HE is in some way or form better than the LE. Though the comment was not meant to come forth as such AND the comment is subjective to the user of the HE gear and not facts. The good comment on the same LE tank just after that line might not leave the good impression it was meant to, because of the first line)

*Note*: The user who made these comments in NO WAY meant for these comments to knock LE gear. To the user (who will recognize these comments) - *Please don’t take offence* I’m simply using these as examples on how other users might misinterpret them. There are lots of comments like these from other users as well.

This in my opinion is where the issues started. Do I have a solution for people feeling lesser because they do not have HE gear? NO. Can we be more considerate with our comments with the above in mind? YES. Rather say why you think a product does not work FOR YOU…don’t go saying something else is better just because of your subjective opinion.

I’m probably going to get a lot of flak for this post. But I feel it is something to point out.

Disclaimer - I do not have any HE gear and I do not feel any lesser because of it, neither should anybody else.

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## KZOR

haruspex said:


> into HE and LE. ("HIGH" end and "low" end).


Could we please change the meaning of "LE" from "Low end" to "Less expensive".
There is nothing low end about my RDA's and mods like the Epetite, Therion or Hotcig R150. 
Even my Alien and Predator have deserved a special place in my heart.
I am soooooo tired of reading of the mindset adopted by certain members because they allow themselves to feel inferior by HE gear owners ........ damn ...... wake up.
@Mando summed it up nicely.


Mando said:


> I believe it's there for you to own something unique.


I rate my gear on how they perform and look for me.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 2


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## haruspex

@KZOR I agree with you. My point is that there should be no HE or LE classification... There is only gear that works for the individual

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 3


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## Clouds4Days

KZOR said:


> Could we please change the meaning of "LE" from "Low end" to "Less expensive".
> There is nothing low end about my RDA's and mods like the Epetite, Therion or Hotcig R150.
> Even my Alien and Predator have deserved a special place in my heart.
> I am soooooo tired of reading of the mindset adopted by certain members because they allow themselves to feel inferior by HE gear owners ........ damn ...... wake up.
> @Mando summed it up nicely.
> 
> I rate my gear on how they perform and look for me.



Dont worry @KZOR its more fun being part of the "LE" crew than it is "HE" in any case.

No need for international orders we can go to our local store and pick up our gear and dont have to spend hundreds of rands in shipping.

Being LE is not only cheaper its more hastle free.
I love vaping LE gear. #LEisGREAT

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## craigb

I've had enough low end gear. To me, my minikin v2 is the monkeys nipples. Doesn't get higher end than that with a SM25 dual coil, a Medusa or my azeroth.

Sm25 is a bit higher grade for me though. But I'm working on it. 

That's my current definition of high end vaping. For me. YMMV. 

Love looking at the fancy wood finishes and stuff though. Would like one someday. If you have one I'm a tad jelly cos of the aesthetics. 

I've been in a room full of big fancy rdas on top of fancy shmancy regulated mods while I carried my pico squeeze... Those others were rather envious of me  

If someone is going to be an elitist prick they will find a reason: yours is too cheap/expensive, flashy/plain, big/small etc etc. 

This HE vs LE is a joke and a non issue and is merely a variation on the pants filling contest. Use what works for you.

Reactions: Like 5


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## RichJB

I don't mind people saying their HE gear is better because, in many cases, it will be. This is just common sense. If I buy a R100k DLSR digital camera with a bunch of lenses and the latest chipset, of course it's going to be higher quality and take better photos than a R1000 point-and-click cheapie. If I buy the very latest Jaguar, of course it will offer higher performance and a more luxurious ride than a second-hand Opel. If I order a genuine duck down duvet with a genuine brushed satin duvet cover from a fashion house in Paris, of course it's going to be better than a poly duvet and cover set from Sheet Street.

None of these things is in question. What is in question is this: do I need it? If my only need for a camera is to snap hand checks, vape mail and happy clappies at birthday parties, I don't need a R250k pro rig with fifteen lenses and the highest resolution chip on the market. My cell phone camera will suffice.

So, do I need HE vape gear? Simple answer: no. I am satisfying a nicotine addiction, not making a personal style statement. I applied the same to smoking. There is no doubt that a gold Cartier lighter is a much higher quality item than a plastic Bic. Yet I always used a plastic Bic while I was smoking. Its function is to light the tobacco, not to be a personal style statement, so the Bic does the job just fine. Give me decent flavour and a reasonable cloud from my vape gear and I'm happy. For the same reason, I am quite happy to drink Castle or Amstel. I don't need craft beer delivered specially from a little-known brewery in Croatia at R78 a bottle. Yes, the imported craft beer might have that subtle clove note in the background, and have 1.8% more bubbles in the head than Castle does. And there may well be people whose lives would be miserable if they had to do without that clove note and those 1.8% bubbles. But I am not one of them. Castle is fine for me. So is an LE vape. Gryp 'n dop, kap 'n skyf en daar gat ons.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 6


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## Tair

boxerulez said:


> The mad dog was mad, the ICON will kill it as it did my goon. Hell the goon is sold.


Dot mod petri Bro... nothing will ever beat it sorry


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## Huffapuff

RichJB said:


> I don't mind people saying their HE gear is better because, in many cases, it will be. This is just common sense. If I buy a R100k DLSR digital camera with a bunch of lenses and the latest chipset, of course it's going to be higher quality and take better photos than a R1000 point-and-click cheapie. If I buy the very latest Jaguar, of course it will offer higher performance and a more luxurious ride than a second-hand Opel. If I order a genuine duck down duvet with a genuine brushed satin duvet cover from a fashion house in Paris, of course it's going to be better than a poly duvet and cover set from Sheet Street.
> 
> None of these things is in question. What is in question is this: do I need it? If my only need for a camera is to snap hand checks, vape mail and happy clappies at birthday parties, I don't need a R250k pro rig with fifteen lenses and the highest resolution chip on the market. My cell phone camera will suffice.
> 
> So, do I need HE vape gear? Simple answer: no. I am satisfying a nicotine addiction, not making a personal style statement. I applied the same to smoking. There is no doubt that a gold Cartier lighter is a much higher quality item than a plastic Bic. Yet I always used a plastic Bic while I was smoking. Its function is to light the tobacco, not to be a personal style statement, so the Bic does the job just fine. Give me decent flavour and a reasonable cloud from my vape gear and I'm happy. For the same reason, I am quite happy to drink Castle or Amstel. I don't need craft beer delivered specially from a little-known brewery in Croatia at R78 a bottle. Yes, the imported craft beer might have that subtle clove note in the background, and have 1.8% more bubbles in the head than Castle does. And there may well be people whose lives would be miserable if they had to do without that clove note and those 1.8% bubbles. But I am not one of them. Castle is fine for me. So is an LE vape. Gryp 'n dop, kap 'n skyf en daar gat ons.


This is what raises the ultimate question for me with regards to HE gear - does it really improve your vape? 

Some atties certainly provide better flavour, but for the average vaper would they be able to discern the difference between a good rda and a HE rda? And if they do, is it enough to justify the price/hassle of acquiring the HE atty? 

When it comes to HE mods I think it's purely aesthetics and personal taste. A mod fires the coil, that's it. A good quality mod is going to fire a coil just as well as a HE mod. Maybe the construction is better (in some cases) but the vape isn't. Again, is the price/hassle worth it? 

So what does HE offer? Quality? Looks? Style? Status? Possibly some or all of those. But a better vape? I don't know, I'm not convinced.


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## DoubleD

Huffapuff said:


> This is what raises the ultimate question for me with regards to HE gear - does it really improve your vape?
> 
> Some atties certainly provide better flavour, but for the average vaper would they be able to discern the difference between a good rda and a HE rda? And if they do, is it enough to justify the price/hassle of acquiring the HE atty?
> 
> When it comes to HE mods I think it's purely aesthetics and personal taste. A mod fires the coil, that's it. A good quality mod is going to fire a coil just as well as a HE mod. Maybe the construction is better (in some cases) but the vape isn't. Again, is the price/hassle worth it?
> 
> So what does HE offer? Quality? Looks? Style? Status? Possibly some or all of those. But a better vape? I don't know, I'm not convinced.



Personally i dont believe it can have anything to do with the vape quality. It's purely about aesthetics. HE mods will perform exactly the same as a clone would if both used the same electronics boards i.e DNA boards.
HE atomizers are in majority of cases been made at a higher level of machining, meaning the finished product will look flawless, where as clones tend not to be. As for the vape experiences on these atomizers they should be the same depending on the coil builder/coils used.

A billet box is in essence, a much sexy'er version of a Subtank kit (mod+tank) we used to buy back in the day. Can't deal with that idea, well lets put it to the test then?

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB

Afaik the flavour of an atty is determined by things like the size of the chamber and the airflow dynamics. Seeing as clones are generally direct copies, I can't see how a clone wouldn't reproduce the flavour. Yes, the original might have hardened screws that don't strip as easily. But does having non-strip screws improve the vape flavour?

The other thing is that even if it is better, how important is that? I enjoy the occasional chocolate. There are shops near me that import the finest and most expensive chocolates to be found anywhere. I am sure that their chocolates are higher quality and taste better than, say, a Bar-One. Does this mean that I now can't eat Bar-Ones, that they taste gross to me, that I will feel inferior or unsatisfied if I have to make do with a "LE" Bar-One? Of course not. Bar-One is delicious, I'll gobble it down, smack my lips and come back for more. I don't live for the taste of chocolate. So not having the very finest is not an issue for me.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Silver

RichJB said:


> Afaik the flavour of an atty is determined by things like the size of the chamber and the airflow dynamics. Seeing as clones are generally direct copies, I can't see how a clone wouldn't reproduce the flavour. Yes, the original might have hardened screws that don't strip as easily. But does having non-strip screws improve the vape flavour?
> 
> The other thing is that even if it is better, how important is that? I enjoy the occasional chocolate. There are shops near me that import the finest and most expensive chocolates to be found anywhere. I am sure that their chocolates are higher quality and taste better than, say, a Bar-One. Does this mean that I now can't eat Bar-Ones, that they taste gross to me, that I will feel inferior or unsatisfied if I have to make do with a "LE" Bar-One? Of course not. Bar-One is delicious, I'll gobble it down, smack my lips and come back for more. I don't live for the taste of chocolate. So not having the very finest is not an issue for me.



I agree with you @RichJB - but I think Inside Story is better than Bar-One

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 4


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## craigb

Silver said:


> I agree with you @RichJB - but I think Inside Story is better than Bar-One


You are both wrong. Plain dairy milk slab for the win.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 3


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## RichJB

^^^ These are fighting words. Don't make me get out the whiteboard and the coloured pens now.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Silver

RichJB said:


> ^^^ These are fighting words. Don't make me get out the whiteboard and the coloured pens now.



Ooh.... promises promises...


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## DoubleD

mmkay, as you were then lol


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## Puff the Magic Dragon

Hi @KZOR 



KZOR said:


> Could we please change the meaning of "LE" from "Low end" to "Less expensive



If LE becomes Less Expensive, should HE become *Highly Expensive* ? Just a suggestion. No malicious intention.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## johan

Reading through this thread, my conclusion: the Chinese sweat shop owners know their Western client base as _penny-wise-but pound-foolish_.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## RichJB

@johan: example?


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## johan

RichJB said:


> @johan: example?



clone vs the real McCoy; i.e Kayfun etc.


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## Comrad Juju

johan said:


> clone vs the real McCoy; i.e Kayfun etc.



I might be wrong but most people actually say the sxk Kayfun beats the real one by miles 

Well most comments if seen. Some of it coming from the authentic owners 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 1


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## johan

Comrad Juju said:


> I might be wrong but most people actually say the sxk Kayfun beats the real one by miles
> 
> Well most comments if seen. Some of it coming from the authentic owners
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I won't know, bitten a couple of times with clones, never again.


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## Comrad Juju

johan said:


> I won't know, bitten a couple of times with clones, never again.



Well how can that statement be made without any comparison about the kayfun?

Just asking?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1


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## johan

Comrad Juju said:


> Well how can that statement be made without any comparison about the kayfun?
> 
> Just asking?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ok - bought a cloned Kayfun 3. something cheap-n-nasty-made-in-a-hell-of-a-hurry-in china a couple of years ago, the thing pissed juice like a Fordson Major tractror from day one, bought, the authentic a month later, zero leaks and still working on me Limelight e-pipe to this day without leaks (in the interim I received a clone Russian 99%, who also leaked like a hoar that broke a couple of seals). The statement was made on a fact; the West want cheap and the Chinese are willing to deliver cheap, irrespective of design, quality and/or tolerances.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## boxerulez

johan said:


> Reading through this thread, my conclusion: the Chinese sweat shop owners know their Western client base as _penny-wise-but pound-foolish_.


So every company in china runs sweatshops? Pretty ******* racist.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


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## SmokeyJoe



Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 3


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## johan

boxerulez said:


> So every company in china runs sweatshops? Pretty ******* racist.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk



I'm not going to get dragged into a futile battle. I have an office in China since 1997, 90% of cheap shite are manufactured in sweat shops - btw Hitler was a racist.


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## boxerulez

Hitler was also a shitbag... like other racists.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Comrad Juju

Perfect and it's comment like that making the average smoker who can't afford he gear to pick up another pack of cigarettes instead of buying a vape setup he can afford 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 2


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## johan

boxerulez said:


> Hitler was also a shitbag... like other racists.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk



You're just looking for k@k - go and waste some bytes elsewhere,

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mando

I this think thread needs to be archived after some deleted posts. The point of the thread has long since been answered and enough articulate information has been gathered. Ecigg Bosses please advise @Silver for e.g.

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Quakes

Mando said:


> I this think thread needs to be archived after some deleted posts. The point of the thread has long since been answered and enough articulate information has been gathered. Ecigg Bosses please advise @Silver for e.g.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


I agree, this is getting out of hand.


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## Comrad Juju

Mando said:


> I think thread needs to be archived after some deleted post. The point of the thread has long since been answered and enough articulate information has been gathered. Ecigg Bosses please advise @Silver for e.g.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk



Will all other treads also be archived after 10 pages of comments?


Or is this only due to some of the he people being intimidated by valid points ?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1


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## SmokeyJoe

I


Mando said:


> I this think thread needs to be archived after some deleted posts. The point of the thread has long since been answered and enough articulate information has been gathered. Ecigg Bosses please advise @Silver for e.g.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


I agree
This is getting out of hand


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## wikus

Mando said:


> I this think thread needs to be archived after some deleted posts. The point of the thread has long since been answered and enough articulate information has been gathered. Ecigg Bosses please advise @Silver for e.g.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


why stop the fun now?


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## Mando

Comrad Juju said:


> Will all other treads also be archived after 10 pages of comments?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Some don't even make it past 5. It's clear things are going off kilter

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk


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## Quakes

From HE\LE\Clones - to chocolates - to racism. I think it reached it's end.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Mando

Quakes said:


> From HE\LE\Clones - to chocolates - to racism. I think it reached it's end.


Lol indeed

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1


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## SmokeyJoe

@Silver please can the mods archive. Racism and Hitler has no place in ecigssa. Theres enough of that crap in our country. This site is supposed to be about the love of vaping

Reactions: Agree 3 | Thanks 1


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## boxerulez

SmokeyJoe said:


> @Silver please can the mods archive. Racism and Hitler has no place in ecigssa. Theres enough of that crap in our country. This site is supposed to be about the love of vaping


If this thread is locked without an infraction to the racist im gonna be pretty pissed off.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


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## Scouse45

johan said:


> Ok - bought a cloned Kayfun 3. something cheap-n-nasty-made-in-a-hell-of-a-hurry-in china a couple of years ago, the thing pissed juice like a Fordson Major tractror from day one, bought, the authentic a month later, zero leaks and still working on me Limelight e-pipe to this day without leaks (in the interim I received a clone Russian 99%, who also leaked like a hoar that broke a couple of seals). The statement was made on a fact; the West want cheap and the Chinese are willing to deliver cheap, irrespective of design, quality and/or tolerances.


I'm not jumping on any side I myself cannot afford HE but I tend to think that's very narrow minded hey. Saying that us (the west) buy products irrespective of quality, design and tolerances... basically saying we jump at the cheap rubbish. How about due respect to financial position or due respect to choice?? I have vaped many years now and tried many many different devices and very often I go back to my cheaper simpler devices. I hav dnas and sx mods and I hav ordered sxk kayfuns to try. I don't hav the 2000 for a tank jus to c how it is so I will attempt the clones first based on other members suggestions also. Many of us r not making choices irrespective of designs and quality, we making choices with respect to our own situations and positions. This is not a personal thing at all, and I say this with all due respect... but that's rubbish to say that

Reactions: Like 5


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## Kalahari stoommasjien

boxerulez said:


> If this thread is locked without an infraction to the racist im gonna be pretty pissed off.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk



That, at least, is better than being pissed on...

but yes, I think its time to call it quits... what have we learnt?
HE=Horribly expenive
LE=Less expensive
Vape quality is not directly proportional to the amount of money you burn^Wspend on your kit and the LE kit is pretty much great at keeping us ex firestarters from starting fires again.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Scouse45

My apologies for veering off the topic of the forum I was irritated. Back to the calm discussion lads. Give me a choice and I would probably order and authentic skyline or 4 today.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Christos

I think you guys are all out with pitchforks looking for blood.
I agree with @johan's statement that a lot of the stuff is cheap and nasty.
I don't see him say anything about what you should buy or what you shouldn't. 

If you want to buy clones go ahead nobody really care.

When people including myself give experiences on what we have had with clones a lot of guys climb on the "these guys are self righteous " bus .

Seriously I think a lot of people need a bit of growing up/maturing.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## wikus

just a simple fact to all, The Chinese invented the electronic cigarette.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Amir

Steady brothers... steady. 

This is a forum... open to interpretation and opinions. There is no need to sweep under the rug and close the forum. I would deem that cowardly. But then again that's just my opinion. Someone with more wisdom would deem it otherwise... my point being... we are all men here with very strong opinions. 

I feel that high end gear is a means of expressing individuality. There is no harm in wanting to wield a set up that's bespoke and unique. For some, vaping is a hobby, for others, it's a lifestyle, for many, it's a means of keeping off the stinkies. You can not hate on a man who has a Ferrari who washes it daily and takes selfies on himself in the Ferrari and enjoys showing it off to the world... and by the same token that man has no right to look down on you for loving your 1400. People are too quick to jump on the price of everything... but tend to over look the value of it. A man who earns 3500 a month and vaping on a twisp is no better than a man who earns 50000 a month and vaping on a skyline/phantom set up.... in fact... both guys will enjoy pretty much the same benefits of vaping. 

What works for you should be high end enough for you. Knowing the price of everything and value of nothing is what makes you the loser in the end. At the end of the day we all have one goal in mind... a shared passion for vaping. If we can adhere to this as the basis of our ideology then all else becomes irrelevant. High end gear, the Ferrari, will still get you to the same destination and the 1400. The only people who should and will be affected by the difference are shallow and materialistic. To each his own. I could be the driver of the Ferrari and vaping on twisp, you could be the driver of the 1400 and vaping on a skyline. 

Who the hell cares? Why has this thread become so important to derail us? I prefer expensive clothes and watches to expensive gear. Does that make me better than you? No... that makes me the most well dressed fool. 


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Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 5 | Winner 3


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## Christos

Here's a social experiment. If this offends you then guess what ....

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Alex

Would everyone who intends to post anything further on this thread please remember to keep it civil.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Amir

For the record... my brother in law is using a twisp aero from the day it came out till now in DL configuration. He's vaped on almost everything I own, from HE to clones... and still prefers his twisp. It works for him. He can buy and sell me and still have change. But I respect him and his aero not for the price tag... I respect his ability to stay off the stinkies. 


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Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 4


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## Alex

Amir said:


> For the record... my brother in law is using a twisp aero from the day it came out till now in DL configuration. He's vaped on almost everything I own, from HE to clones... and still prefers his twisp. It works for him. He can buy and sell me and still have change. But I respect him and his aero not for the price tag... I respect his ability to stay off the stinkies.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Exactly this, guys it doesn't matter what equipment is used, everything is better than a cigarette.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Huffapuff

Amir said:


> Knowing the price of everything and value of nothing is what makes you the loser in the end.


That right there.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SAVapeGear

Now I am starting to understand why there are closed facebooks groups for certain types of gear

To keep all these kinds of comments out and only to allow really interested parties in.

This is getting so ridiculous.

Why don't everyone rather create threads with all their awesome stuff and review them than wasting time on posts like this.

That is what a forum is for,for constructive feedback and reviews.

Certain members are really making this place not a nice place to be anymore.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## andro

at the end is the same as anything else . i love louis vuitton . i have plenty item from the company . is worth it .... to me yes . do they work better than for example a cheap nylon wallet . no . both keep money etc in it . if u want it and can afford it ... get it but when u need to put it under my nose to feel important ... sorry man ( or woman ) but im not interested in following and personally i really dont care . to me this is the basic of HE vs non HE . get it if you want and u can and it should be nobody else business only yours .

Reactions: Agree 3


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## DoubleD

johan said:


> Reading through this thread, my conclusion: the Chinese sweat shop owners know their Western client base as _penny-wise-but pound-foolish_.



Although, these sweat shops are getting good, perfect example is the SXK BB, going by all reports of the people who own them, that it is identical to the authentic. Not so foolish then, its actually a great buy for the average vaper.

At the end of the day, I distance myself from any of this bullshittery, I'll buy what I want if it fits my needs and pocket, I'm vaping it not the random dude on the interwebs


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## DoubleD

Scouse45 said:


> My apologies for veering off the topic of the forum I was irritated. Back to the calm discussion lads. Give me a choice and I would probably order and authentic skyline or 4 today.


 you must have the choice, dont you? go ahead, order 4


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## boxerulez

DoubleD said:


> Although, these sweat shops are getting good, perfect example is the SXK BB, going by all reports of the people who own them, that it is identical to the authentic. Not so foolish then, its actually a great buy for the average vaper.
> 
> At the end of the day, I distance myself from any of this bullshittery, I'll buy what I want if it fits my needs and pocket, I'm vaping it not the random dude on the interwebs


Where do you people get sweat shops from?

And just FIY SXK is one of the best ecig manufacturers out there.. you think Admodus will hire a sweatshop to build them stabwood mods?

Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


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## Christos

boxerulez said:


> Where do you people get sweat shops from?
> 
> And just FIY SXK is one of the best ecig manufacturers out there.. you think Admodus will hire a sweatshop to build them stabwood mods?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


Admodus would definately hire a sweat shop.
Asmodus might look into a real plant

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## boxerulez

Dont get me wrong though... @DoubleD with the rest of you post I agree whole heartedly.

Vape what works for you...


Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 1


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## boxerulez

Christos said:


> Admodus would definately hire a sweat shop.
> Asmodus might look into a real plant


Of course... a year ago all the HE guys were clammering over each other for Asmodus stabwood mods.... now we poke fun at them. Rob had 4 iirc... 

2 kodamas
2 Ares

Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


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## Christos

boxerulez said:


> Of course... a year ago all the HE guys were clammering over each other for Asmodus stabwood mods.... now we poke fun at them. Rob had 4 iirc...
> 
> 2 kodamas
> 2 Ares
> 
> Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


Your point?


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## boxerulez

My point is how you are making fun on Asmodus now is hypocritical just like NoCloneZone who sold clones before now he judges all clone owners?

Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


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## SAVapeGear

boxerulez said:


> My point is how you are making fun on Asmodus now is hypocritical just like NoCloneZone who sold clones before now he judges all clone owners?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


Just to set it straight @boxerulez 

I sold that for a customer who bought an authentic from my online store.


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## Christos

boxerulez said:


> My point is how you are making fun on Asmodus now is hypocritical just like NoCloneZone who sold clones before now he judges all clone owners?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


I think you need to re-read my post.
Nobody is making fun of asmodus. 
Admodus on the other hand is a joke!


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## SAVapeGear

SAVapeGear said:


> Just to set it straight @boxerulez
> 
> I sold that for a customer who bought an authentic from my online store.


It was OL16s.

Do you think I would use one if I had 5 Authentics


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## boxerulez

SAVapeGear said:


> Just to set it straight @boxerulez
> 
> I sold that for a customer who bought an authentic from my online store.


 

So thats perfectly acceptable and in line with your avatar?

Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


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## Christos

boxerulez said:


> So thats perfectly acceptable and in line with your avatar?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


I think you are missing the point entirely.

Reactions: Like 1


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## boxerulez

Christos said:


> I think you are missing the point entirely.


Ok

Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


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## SAVapeGear

boxerulez said:


> So thats perfectly acceptable and in line with your avatar?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk


Yip it is.So that people that are looking for the clones to try can at least try it.

Customer got his money and he was happy that he got his authentic.


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## boxerulez

"No Except Customer's Clone Zone"

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## DoubleD

boxerulez said:


> Where do you people get sweat shops from?
> 
> And just FIY SXK is one of the best ecig manufacturers out there.. you think Admodus will hire a sweatshop to build them stabwood mods?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk



I should've made use of quotation marks, my bad but dont let the lack thereof fool you, I'm well aware of SXK 



On other random points I have:

If I was well off and could afford anything I wanted, that's exactly what I will do. So would anyone else. The end.

Reactions: Like 2


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## SAVapeGear

It is a pitty that I had such shit experiences with clones and never wanted to try them again.

I would have also liked to get stuff at good prices.

But you @boxerulez just want to go at people,don't understand why you are being like this.

I will buy what I want,when I want.I don't drink,never go out.Just a family man enjoying my hobby.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Christos

@wikus I think you need to learn how to read properly


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## Silver

Hi guys

As @Alex posted earlier, please keep your posts here civil

*And please dont get personal, incite others or accuse others. 
Remember forum rules - play the ball not the man*

This is a sensitive topic and I think we have done extremely well on this thread so far. There have been some fantastic posts - maturely discussing the issue of HE vs non HE. It has been a great read.

Let us keep it that way.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## wikus

Christos said:


> @wikus I think you need to learn how to read properly





Christos said:


> Admodus would definately hire a sweat shop.
> Asmodus might look into a real plant


sorry I cannot grasp your dry humour, care to elaborate?


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## Christos

wikus said:


> sorry I cannot grasp your dry humour, care to elaborate?


I'll give you a hint. Look at the spelling of Asmodus that @boxerulez used

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Silver

Guys

*Please stop fighting with each other*

This is a good topic, if you can discuss it maturely without offending others or reacting in a bad way, then that is super

If you can't, you will be spoiling a good thread

Reactions: Like 1


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## wikus

Christos said:


> I'll give you a hint. Look at the spelling of Asmodus that @boxerulez used


Sh*t, sorry my bad.....

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## Scouse45

So seein as i can't pass much judgment on much HE gear as I haven't owned any, somebody gotta invite me round to try out their skyline when they get them!! Now I'm even more interested! @Silver where u live can I come for a vape


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## Pixstar

*My 2c*. Some of the so called HE gear I've seen is awesome and I would buy them all if I could.
But coming from a manufacturing background, *MY* definition of HE depends on quality of fit and finish.
What I have realised is:-
- Expensive does not necessarily mean HE
- Stab wood does not make a mod HE
- Rarity does not make it HE (just look at some of the 3D printed squonk mods out there, they're cute, rare and expensive but definitely not HE to *ME*)
_
Here is a good example of what HE is to *ME*:-_

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 2 | Winner 4


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## Christos

wikus said:


> Sh*t, sorry my bad.....


All good. 
You got your pitchfork out for a minute there...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Clouds4Days

I will say one thing though. One thing i dont get is when clone makers clone a cheaper product.

I can understand making a clone of something that costs R800 up to make it accessible for someone to try it if they on a budget.

The other day Sirs were selling a Proto Tank for R250 (on special) and else where i saw a clone selling for R300 or R350 ....

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Silver

Scouse45 said:


> So seein as i can't pass much judgment on much HE gear as I haven't owned any, somebody gotta invite me round to try out their skyline when they get them!! Now I'm even more interested! @Silver where u live can I come for a vape



Lol @Scouse45 

I am very excited myself because the Skyline will be my first high end piece of gear
I have the Reos, the RM2s, Nuppins, the OL16 and my beloved abalone hotcig150
And the two authentic Kayfuns.
Those are my "highest end gear" 

So am very excited for the Skyline and want to put it through its paces very carefully. But it will take me some time to figure it all out. I want to compare it to the gear and juices I know well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Christos

Pixstar said:


> *My 2c*. Some of the so called HE gear I've seen is awesome and I would buy them all if I could.
> But coming from a manufacturing background, *MY* definition of HE depends on quality of fit and finish.
> What I have realised is:-
> - Expensive does not necessarily mean HE
> - Stab wood does not make a mod HE
> - Rarity does not make it HE (just look at some of the 3D printed squonk mods out there, they're cute, rare and expensive but definitely not HE to *ME*)
> _
> Here is a good example of what HE is to *ME*:-_
> 
> View attachment 94436
> View attachment 94437
> View attachment 94438
> View attachment 94439
> View attachment 94440


I would like to add that most of my stuff is HE.
Not considered HE but it works exceptionally well and is exceptional quality. 
Bottom line is HE is not about price but what ticked you pink in the dead of the night.

I do believe clones are intellectual property theft. 

A reo is my best HE device for me because it's the only device I would keep if I sold the rest. 
It's a personal choice and yes I have been laughed at for running "micro" coils in shops by kids rocking 1.5 kgs of wire in their devices.

I'm old enough not to care.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Can relate 2


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## Scouse45

Silver said:


> Lol @Scouse45
> 
> I am very excited myself because the Skyline will be my first high end piece of gear
> I have the Reos, the RM2s, Nuppins, the OL16 and my beloved abalone hotcig150
> And the two authentic Kayfuns.
> Those are my "highest end gear"
> 
> So am very excited for the Skyline and want to put it through its paces very carefully. But it will take me some time to figure it all out. I want to compare it to the gear and juices I know well.


Nothing beats the abalone hotcig it's my driver! After following ur kayfun posts I am trying a couple of sxk kayfuns to c how I like the style (let's not get into attack of the clones again) then maybe I can move onto a serious version.

Reactions: Like 2


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## DoubleD

Pixstar said:


> *My 2c*. Some of the so called HE gear I've seen is awesome and I would buy them all if I could.
> But coming from a manufacturing background, *MY* definition of HE depends on quality of fit and finish.
> What I have realised is:-
> - Expensive does not necessarily mean HE
> - Stab wood does not make a mod HE
> - Rarity does not make it HE (just look at some of the 3D printed squonk mods out there, they're cute, rare and expensive but definitely not HE to *ME*)
> _
> Here is a good example of what HE is to *ME*:-_
> 
> View attachment 94436
> View attachment 94437
> View attachment 94438
> View attachment 94439
> View attachment 94440



Beautiful mod

Reactions: Agree 2


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## wikus

Christos said:


> All good.
> You got your pitchfork out for a minute there...


got caught up in the moment, my take on the whole topic;

Japanese, Chinese, Mexican, American, whoever produces whatever level of MOD/RDA/RTA, if I can get a good vape from it, I love it. Would i like an authentic ESG Skyline? Hell yeah! Can I afford it? That's a different subject that I need to discuss with my bank manager.
Maybe I just click to much on the wrong threads and always see the high praise in HE/expensive mods, that I myself want it as well, but cant afford it right this moment.
For now I'm off the stinkies, using my own defined HE setup namely a Therion BF with a tsunami/LP, so I'm a happy camper.
A bit more "LE" reviews on the forum would be great, but nowadays only the "HE" stuff makes it on here.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Silver

Scouse45 said:


> Nothing beats the abalone hotcig it's my driver! After following ur kayfun posts I am trying a couple of sxk kayfuns to c how I like the style (let's not get into attack of the clones again) then maybe I can move onto a serious version.



Great to hear @Scouse45 
My Kayfun5 is going beautifully.
My V3 Mini is still not right and I need to experiment a bit more.


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## Christos

Scouse45 said:


> Nothing beats the abalone hotcig it's my driver! After following ur kayfun posts I am trying a couple of sxk kayfuns to c how I like the style (let's not get into attack of the clones again) then maybe I can move onto a serious version.


Nobody is atacking clones. 
I for 1 just stated my opinion on them. 
If I say that clones are intellectual property theft I don't see how you would take offence to my opinion unless you agree with my statement and then reject it because you think I'm atacking you. 

If you want to use the clone it's none of my business.


----------



## Alex

Speaking of the Kayfun, I think this guy is funny as hell.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Christos

wikus said:


> got caught up in the moment, my take on the whole topic;
> 
> Japanese, Chinese, Mexican, American, whoever produces whatever level of MOD/RDA/RTA, if I can get a good vape from it, I love it. Would i like an authentic ESG Skyline? Hell yeah! Can I afford it? That's a different subject that I need to discuss with my bank manager.
> Maybe I just click to much on the wrong threads and always see the high praise in HE/expensive mods, that I myself want it as well, but cant afford it right this moment.
> For now I'm off the stinkies, using my own defined HE setup namely a Therion BF with a tsunami/LP, so I'm a happy camper.
> A bit more "LE" reviews on the forum would be great, but nowadays only the "HE" stuff makes it on here.


That's the spirit. I would suggest creating your own thread regarding the gear that you love.

It seems 1 man would create the bulk of the thread and everyone would add.
When said man moves to other devices that can't be bought readily it's natural that he would continue to do the same.

Perhaps this is a call to the community to be more active instead of expecting someone else to start a thread.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Silver

wikus said:


> got caught up in the moment, my take on the whole topic;
> 
> Japanese, Chinese, Mexican, American, whoever produces whatever level of MOD/RDA/RTA, if I can get a good vape from it, I love it. Would i like an authentic ESG Skyline? Hell yeah! Can I afford it? That's a different subject that I need to discuss with my bank manager.
> Maybe I just click to much on the wrong threads and always see the high praise in HE/expensive mods, that I myself want it as well, but cant afford it right this moment.
> For now I'm off the stinkies, using my own defined HE setup namely a Therion BF with a tsunami/LP, so I'm a happy camper.
> A bit more "LE" reviews on the forum would be great, but nowadays only the "HE" stuff makes it on here.



Hi @wikus

I alluded to this much earlier in the thread. There is no change on the forum regarding a swing toward high end gear. ECIGSSA has no policy to promote the posting of any type of gear.

What you may be witnessing is that one of our most prolific posters and fellow Admin Mr Fisher has gone heavily into the high end journey. Hence he has posted a fair amount of high end gear he is experiencing. And the related conversation adds to it. But that is his personal journey. Not a forum policy of any kind.

Members are free to post about all vaping devices, not just the high end stuff.

Just wanted to make that clear in case anyone thought differently.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Thanks 1


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## Christos

Silver said:


> Hi @wikus
> 
> I alluded to this much earlier in the thread. There is no change on the forum regarding a swing toward high end gear. ECIGSSA has no policy to promote the posting of any type of gear.
> 
> What you may be witnessing is that one of our most prolific poster and fellow Admin Mr Fisher has gone heavily into the high end journey. Hence he has posted a fair amount of high end gear he is experiencing. And the related conversation adds to it. But that is his personal journey. Not a forum policy of any kind.
> 
> Members are free to post about all vaping devices, not just the high end stuff.
> 
> Just wanted to make that clear in case anyone thought differently.


Thanks for phrasing thay better than I could.

It really is up to everyone to contribute as there seems to be anger or resentment because Rob is no longer creating threads on everything new that comes out.

If it amazes you I would create a thread instead of waiting for someone else to do it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Silver

In my hand right now

One of my favourite Vaping devices. Subtank Mini V2 on istick50. It's old but works so incredibly well

This exact device got me through VapeCon 2016 and will most likely get me through VapeCon 2017 as well. I have a 'love' for it that is quite special. Many special moments.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## Daniel

I think this whole HE LE Clones vs Authentic has bigger repercussions than we think ... there are other forces at work here namely Tobacco companies. They are the real threat to the industry and our love for vaping ...... 

Instead of infighting , I propose we take action , join the fight as in the end it's about a healthier lifestyle be it vaping on a Skyline or a Twisp....

This was posted in 2014 ..... three years later nothing has changed it's only getting worse : 

Quote from the post that grabbed me , read it and take heed brothers and sisters : http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2014/03/e-cigarette-patent-wars

""_The e-cigarette business, then, will probably end up much like the smartphone industry (whose miniature-battery technology helped make modern e-cigarettes possible): awash in patent-related lawsuits and counter-lawsuits. Taken together with restrictive and ill-conceived e-cigarette regulations proposed on both sides of the Atlantic, all this may slow growth and innovation in an industry that could greatly reduce the number of smoking-related deaths worldwide. Not exactly a win for anyone involved._"

Reactions: Like 2


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## Pixstar

Alex said:


> Speaking of the Kayfun, I think this guy is funny as hell.



LOL, I enjoy watching him. He is a very good reviewer in my opinion, quite thorough in his approach.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## johan

Scouse45 said:


> I'm not jumping on any side I myself cannot afford HE but I tend to think that's very narrow minded hey. Saying that us (the west) buy products irrespective of quality, design and tolerances... basically saying we jump at the cheap rubbish. How about due respect to financial position or due respect to choice?? I have vaped many years now and tried many many different devices and very often I go back to my cheaper simpler devices. I hav dnas and sx mods and I hav ordered sxk kayfuns to try. I don't hav the 2000 for a tank jus to c how it is so I will attempt the clones first based on other members suggestions also. Many of us r not making choices irrespective of designs and quality, we making choices with respect to our own situations and positions. This is not a personal thing at all, and I say this with all due respect... but that's rubbish to say that



No! I did not say you .... "_us (the west) buy products irrespective of quality, design and tolerances... basically saying we jump at the cheap rubbish_" - read again an then try to make an intelligent comment. I did not disrespect and or address your financial situation in any way, c'mon. I did not address your choice/s, bad or good! If you know the Chinese business model regarding "budget" conscious Western consumer goods, please explain it it to me, as it seems that I don't have a clue.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Scouse45

Christos said:


> Nobody is atacking clones.
> I for 1 just stated my opinion on them.
> If I say that clones are intellectual property theft I don't see how you would take offence to my opinion unless you agree with my statement and then reject it because you think I'm atacking you.
> 
> If you want to use the clone it's none of my business.


No did not direct that at u at all was jus lightening the mood haha I'm all about vaping wat u can how u can when u can! That's all that really matters

Reactions: Like 1


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## boxerulez

SAVapeGear said:


> It is a pitty that I had such shit experiences with clones and never wanted to try them again.
> 
> I would have also liked to get stuff at good prices.
> 
> But you @boxerulez just want to go at people,don't understand why you are being like this.
> 
> I will buy what I want,when I want.I don't drink,never go out.Just a family man enjoying my hobby.


Sorry I come of as having a go I suppose in a way I am...


Like many here have admitted if I had money for Authentics all day I would too... but I am forced to LE and Clone a lot of the way.

Only allow myself a max of 2 higher quality devices at any given time.

I too do not drink and party but I am in a lower income group so I try to supplement my incone each and every way to reach just a little higher up the vape ladder.

I will turn a blind eye to most thing I encounter which seen divisive and snide toward clone owners.

I will try to be less frivolous going forward with my personal life and aim just a little higher but in the meantime I will puff on my clone hadaly as the flavour is just so damn good.

Peace out @NoCloneZone.

Again... apologies about having a go.

Pitchfork packed neatly away for now.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Thanks 1


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## Clouds4Days

Christos said:


> I would like to add that most of my stuff is HE.
> Not considered HE but it works exceptionally well and is exceptional quality.
> 
> I'm old enough not to care.





Alex said:


> Speaking of the Kayfun, I think this guy is funny as hell.




@Alex becareful what you post 
I posted that exact video once and got a dislike and a comment "the guy swears too much" 

But i love that review... Ive watched it beginning to end about 3 times

Reactions: Like 1


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## Scouse45

johan said:


> No! I did not say you .... "us (the west) buy products irrespective of quality, design and tolerances... basically saying we jump at the cheap rubbish" - read again an then try to make an intelligent comment.


Ok bud ok


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## Christos

I would love to know where the term LE came from.
I have not seen anyone calling gear LE and in my mind my gear is not LE even though most guys would call it LE.

I'm thinking whoever came up with the term LE has in fact created this divide between devices which shouldn't exist.
I understand rare pieces will be HE but is there really a need to class LE at all?
My suggestion is that LE is in your own mind.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Christos

Clouds4Days said:


> @Alex becareful what you post
> I posted that exact video once and got a dislike and a comment the guy swears too much
> 
> But i love that review... Ive watched it beginning to end about 3 times


You quoted


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## RichJB

johan said:


> Reading through this thread, my conclusion: the Chinese sweat shop owners know their Western client base as _penny-wise-but pound-foolish_.



Ah, OK, now that you have explained, I tend to disagree. Yes, I hear you that "goedkoop can be duurkoop" and that a cheap clone that packs up after a few days can be false economy. I have four clones and haven't had a single problem from any of them but I concede that many vapers haven't been as lucky as I have.

However, in financial terms, the bigger picture is that spending as little as possible on vaping and as much as possible on investments that increase in value over time is a wise option. The Chinese model along with DIY allows me to vape really cheaply. So it's a model that I'll keep leveraging.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 5


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## Clouds4Days

Christos said:


> You quoted



Oops, bad grammer. My bad


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## Christos

Clouds4Days said:


> Oops, bad grammer. My bad


I think you mean bad hand eye co-ordination or bad mouse/click skills

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Clouds4Days

Christos said:


> I think you mean bad hand eye co-ordination or bad mouse/click skills



He was really upset with me because of that video and preached a bit inbetween his words 

I started typing but then thought shame rather not the toppie just probably walked out church and asked lord for forgiveness and here i lay all this rude language on him through my posted video


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## Christos

Clouds4Days said:


> He was really upset with me because of that video and preached a bit inbetween his words
> 
> I started typing but then thought shame rather not the toppie just probably walked out church and asked lord for forgiveness and here i lay all this rude language on him through my posted video


Was it myself?


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## Clouds4Days

Christos said:


> Was it myself?



No wasn't you bud, cant remember who it was. Think it was a newish member.


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## Caramia

Clouds4Days said:


> No wasn't you bud, cant remember who it was. Think it was a newish member.


Could've been me too, I tend to test the depth of the water with both feet...


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## Clouds4Days

Caramia said:


> Could've been me too, I tend to test the depth of the water with both feet...




Wasnt you either @Caramia was a new member by the name Highlander (found the post)

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Caramia

Clouds4Days said:


> Wasnt you either @Caramia was a new member by the name Highlander (found the post)


Pheeuw, dankie tog...
I really wasn't in the mood for a debate regarding the difference between socialism, democracy, ethics, and successful economic future of any given society/country/nation, nor the ethics, linguistic ability, and future prospects of the so-called "millennials".

Anywhoo, I own a couple of clones (or rather, authentic SXK products), of which most have proven to be equal in performance to the genuine, or "legal" hardware. 
I love my REO, Fooksies with OBS Engines and Smok Beasties atop, Therion BFs, Picos, Hohm Slice, etc. To me, they are the bee's cahoonas, and give me exactly what I want when needed. There will be something better, smaller/bigger, easier, friendlier in a month or two anyways.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## The_Ice

Ok, a lot of shit went down while I was having a Friday night. I might read all about it when I get a moment. It feels to me like there is a great way to sum up this thread without reading. If you have a small weenie and lots of dosh :HE is the best. If you have a big weenie and small wallet, HE is the worst. If you are a human and you are not smoking, you are winning. All the HE bashers, clone bashers, and memo bashers listen to me right now. I wish you knew what I knew right now. You are all vapers and you are all great, but it's easy to make a call on someone, don't let it be you. You bashers are a stupid lot

LE diy wire, juice, etc, ftw

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## boxerulez

Apparently the main feature of HE atties is LUBE 

I hope all the Skylines are able to be repaired / loosened.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 6 | Optimistic 1


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## zadiac

SmokeyJoe said:


> 22k for a mod. What. In. The. Hell. I hope the thing will be able to give blow jobs for that price



Not just that, but cooking and cleaning and the shopping

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 3


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## Ashley A

boxerulez said:


> Apparently the main feature of HE atties is LUBE
> 
> I hope all the Skylines are able to be repaired / loosened.


Don't talk nonsense now. I never lubed my REO's or Nuppins and they're fine years down the line.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## boxerulez

Ashley A said:


> Don't talk nonsense now. I never lubed my REO's or Nuppins and they're fine years down the line.


So you reckon there is a problem with the Skyline Batch?

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Chukin'Vape

boxerulez said:


> So you reckon there is a problem with the Skyline Batch?


Wait... WHAT? Are there some problems with the batch - were a couple of skyline owners moaning? What is going on?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Silver

Guys

Remember forum rules - do not get personal

*play the ball, not the man*

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## boxerulez

Chukin'Vape said:


> Wait... WHAT? Are there some problems with the batch - were a couple of skyline owners moaning? What is going on?


Juiceflow controls are seizing... i suspect engineering or QC issues, but apparently this tank was designed to be lubed every tank on the control threads.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## boxerulez

And we will bring you more as the story develops. I believe the first one is a paperweight. Right now not a liberty to say whose one it is. Will leave that to them.


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## Ashley A

boxerulez said:


> So you reckon there is a problem with the Skyline Batch?


I don't know what a Skyline is in vaping terms.

I was just talking about my high end stuff. They work so well and are so reliable that I don't need to look for anything better. Even my backup of the same setup is collecting dust in pristine condition coz my older one just never let me down yet it goes everywhere with me everyday.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ashley A

Silver said:


> Guys
> 
> Remember forum rules - do not get personal
> 
> *play the ball, not the man*


Ooh, hope that not about my comment to @boxerulez . I was joking around. I really don't know what a Skyline is. Sounds like an atty from his follow up comments.

Apologies @boxerulez if it came across as offensive in anyway.


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## element0709

Just checked mine...seems fine. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Strontium

element0709 said:


> Just checked mine...seems fine.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Must be a clone

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 10


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## element0709

Strontium said:


> Must be a clone



Dnt get me started

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Andre

boxerulez said:


> Apparently the main feature of HE atties is LUBE
> 
> I hope all the Skylines are able to be repaired / loosened.


I found that extremely funny, but not so sure I would have if I were a Skyline owner. Hope they see the funny side too.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Funny 1


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## boxerulez

Ashley A said:


> Ooh, hope that not about my comment to @boxerulez . I was joking around. I really don't know what a Skyline is. Sounds like an atty from his follow up comments.
> 
> Apologies @boxerulez if it came across as offensive in anyway.


Lol no worries bud i know that was banter.. on this side of the fence we not as serious about things  

Sent from my SM-G610F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## RichJB

Ashley A said:


> I don't know what a Skyline is in vaping terms.








Ashley A said:


> I was just talking about my high end stuff. They work so well and are so reliable that I don't need to look for anything better.








Ashley A said:


> Even my backup of the same setup is collecting dust in pristine condition coz my older one just never let me down yet it goes everywhere with me everyday.






I couldn't afford a Skyline so I went for the clone instead. Check out the kiff airflow, boet.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3 | Funny 19 | Creative 1


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## Strontium

Looks legit

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Mahir

Haven't read the entire thread but my 2c on this is simple. HE is like buying a Ferrari and LE is like buying a Toyota Tazz. Yes, it's more fun driving a Ferrari, but ultimately both cars are going to get you from point A to B. The vape 'game' isn't a competition on whoever has the best gear wins, if you off the stinkies, you WIN.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Christos

Mahir said:


> Haven't read the entire thread but my 2c on this is simple. HE is like buying a Ferrari and LE is like buying a Toyota Tazz. Yes, it's more fun driving a Ferrari, but ultimately both cars are going to get you from point A to B. The vape 'game' isn't a competition on whoever has the best gear wins, if you off the stinkies, you WIN.


100% right there! 

Unfortunately it seems to be some sort of pissing contest the tazz owners have that want to imply their dominance and superior intellect on the haves. 
Nobody cares if you are using clones or whatever as long as you are happy.

Seems to be a keeping up with the kardashians vibe going on and people making fun of the misfortunes of others.

Bottom line is nobody really cares about anybody but themselves and having a good laugh and getting involved in someone else's business is more important than brotherhood.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strontium

Actually, way I saw it, the Lube Brigade started in on the Tazz owners, starting in the group buy thread.

But that's my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.


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## Christos

Strontium said:


> Actually, way I saw it, the Lube Brigade started in on the Tazz owners, starting in the group buy thread.
> 
> But that's my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.


Irrelevant. 
If you are not interested in HE then why would you be in thr HE thread making fun of other people's misfortune.
#Justsaying.
Also, I don't see the HE people going around calling people unwarranted names like "authentic assassins" in various threads asking for opinions when the opinions of others are trampled on so readily.

I think we have drama Queens looking to stir the pot instead of living in harmony.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Puff the Magic Dragon

Christos said:


> stir the pot






Stirring the pot seems to be a universal pastime ! Mostly fun ...if done (and taken) in the right spirit.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3 | Funny 1


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## Christos

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> View attachment 96636
> 
> 
> Stirring the pot seems to be a universal pastime ! Mostly fun ...if done (and taken) in the right spirit.


Nothing wrong with stirring in the name of a good laugh for all might I add.
Done with the right intention gets my vote but done at the expense of another is downright narcissistic.
I don't think it's fair to go throw a punch so to speak and then run off. 

If you want to make fun of others be prepared to get made fun of. 
Works both ways but it seems the general trend doesn't work that way.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Scissorhands

I feel our generation of "men" have become too sensitive and emotional, i vote we bring back the classic moustache, backbone and integrity

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Christos

Scissorhands said:


> I feel our generation of "men" have become too sensitive and emotional, i vote we bring back the classic moustache, backbone and integrity


It would be great to have men look at each other like brothers instead of the "I'll put your lights out" mentality that the youth seems to have.

I don't know what it will take for the world to realise we are all in this together.
Then again that explains why there are over 300 war zones on this world and peace seems to be a fleeting concept.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Winner 1


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## Scissorhands

Christos said:


> It would be great to have men look at each other like brothers instead of the "I'll put your lights out" mentality that the youth seems to have.
> 
> I don't know what it will take for the world to realise we are all in this together.
> Then again that explains why there are over 300 war zones on this world and peace seems to be a fleeting concept.



Couldn't agree more

Imo

Ignorance & pride is societies canser, from the youth to the world leaders, we seek personal gain like a drug and lost our humanity along the way.

Its sad really

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Christos

Scissorhands said:


> Couldn't agree more
> 
> Imo
> 
> Ignorance & pride is societies canser, from the youth to the world leaders, we seek personal gain like a drug and lost our humanity along the way.
> 
> Its sad really


Just to add to that, the desire to be something we are not or to conform to societys image of what sucess is and totally negating ourselves and what sucess is to ourself for our unique self also contributes to the problem.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Scissorhands

@Christos Absolutely

From personal experience I feel our education system is deeply flawed and roots this mindset, from a critical age we are moulded to watch, learn and obey, never question, challenge or think for ourselves

i dont want to get too off topic but i feel you are someone I could share a beer with. Cheers

Reactions: Agree 3


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## aktorsyl

Well, this got really deep

Reactions: Agree 3


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## wikus

What has any of the above posts got to do with HE v non-HE? This thread is supposed to be about vape equipment not human mentality etc.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Strontium

wikus said:


> What has any of the above posts got to do with HE v non-HE? This thread is supposed to be about vape equipment not human mentality etc.



If you buy a Skyline and Lube, world peace will ensue.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## wikus

When paying that amount for an atty, I expect the lube to be included.


Strontium said:


> If you buy a Skyline and Lube, world peace will ensue.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## boxerulez

Maybe you're allowed to derail in all threads in the off topic sub.


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## Amir

Scissorhands said:


> I feel our generation of "men" have become too sensitive and emotional, i vote we bring back the classic moustache, backbone and integrity



I shave with an old fashion jack knife straight razor if that helps anything

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 3


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## Amir

Amir said:


> I shave with an old fashion jack knife straight razor if that helps anything



An authentic HE one too

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Cespian

Amir said:


> I shave with an old fashion jack knife straight razor if that helps anything



Real men dont shave. How else are you gonna store excess mayo from your sandwiches?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 12 | Can relate 1


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## Scissorhands

Amir said:


> I shave with an old fashion jack knife straight razor if that helps anything



Haha, that definitely earns you a few chest hairs, they give a superb shave but I stoped using them on clients after a few horror stories , this actually happened to a client of mine - guys daughter ran into the bathroom shrieking, guy got a fright and cut THROUGH his cheeck , has a "C" shape scar now


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## Dubz

Scissorhands said:


> Haha, that definitely earns you a few chest hairs, they give a superb shave but I stoped using them on clients after a few horror stories , this actually happened to a client of mine - guys daughter ran into the bathroom shrinking, guy got a fright and cut THROUGH his cheeck , has a "C" shape scar now


Did his daughter get smaller as she ran into the bathroom?

Reactions: Funny 7


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## capetocuba

For me true HE is a great RDA that has high quality Clapton/Alien coils on top of a DNA 166/200, wicked right with good cotton and a great ADV juice

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Scissorhands

Dubz said:


> Did his daughter get smaller as she ran into the bathroom?


Haha Wow auto correct !! *shrieking

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Amir

Cespian said:


> Real men dont shave. How else are you gonna store excess mayo from your sandwiches?



I don't shave clean... I'm a beard guy... A neat beard tho not like @Stosta

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Amir

Scissorhands said:


> Haha, that definitely earns you a few chest hairs, they give a superb shave but I stoped using them on clients after a few horror stories , this actually happened to a client of mine - guys daughter ran into the bathroom shrieking, guy got a fright and cut THROUGH his cheeck , has a "C" shape scar now



"C" for cool if you ask me... Real men wear their scars with pride.... and real men don't get a fright when girls shriek.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Daniel

@Silver , seeing as you playing policeman won't you be a dear and delete the irrelevant comments like you did in the other thread of yours


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## Andre

Daniel said:


> @Silver , seeing as you playing policeman won't you be a dear and delete the irrelevant comments like you did in the other thread of yours


We need a "naughty" icon!

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Silver

Daniel said:


> @Silver , seeing as you playing policeman won't you be a dear and delete the irrelevant comments like you did in the other thread of yours



Sorry @Daniel - just saw your alert now - have been busy on other things...
Will ask the team to take a look
Please be patient

Just bear in mind that all we ask is for members to stick to forum rules. They are very clear.
Don't get personal. Don't attack each other.

It just paints the poster (and the forum) in a bad light.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Schnappie

Christos said:


> It would be great to have men look at each other like brothers instead of the "I'll put your lights out" mentality that the youth seems to have.
> 
> I don't know what it will take for the world to realise we are all in this together.
> Then again that explains why there are over 300 war zones on this world and peace seems to be a fleeting concept.


John Lennon would be proud

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Feliks Karp



Reactions: Funny 3


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## Christos

Feliks Karp said:


>



Best part... "your D1€k got touched by your uncle"

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Schnappie

Feliks Karp said:


>



Your Sir are not an easy guy to figure out


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## Christos

Schnappie said:


> Your Sir are not an easy guy to figure out


Firstly he is not a guy.
Secondly there is nothing to figure out when it comes to a big void

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Feliks Karp

Schnappie said:


> Your Sir are not an easy guy to figure out

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 2


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## Feliks Karp

Christos said:


> Firstly he is not a guy.
> Secondly there is nothing to figure out when it comes to a big void



That's just rude, you really hurt my feelings, I thought we were friends.


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## Christos

Feliks Karp said:


>



You are so invited to our road trip! 

I hope that unhurts your feelings.

Reactions: Like 2


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## GregF

Feliks Karp said:


> That's just rude, you really hurt my feelings, I thought we were friends.
> 
> View attachment 97175


That is just so sad......who does that...
You are not a man for no man would post such a pic 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Funny 2


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## GregF

Oops this is in the HE vs non-HE thread.
I didn't mean it @Feliks Karp ....can we still be friends?


Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## Christos

GregF said:


> Oops this is in the HE vs non-HE thread.
> I didn't mean it @felixs Karp ....can we still be friends?
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Dont take it back. Join #TeamStosta.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Feliks Karp

GregF said:


> Oops this is in the HE vs non-HE thread.
> I didn't mean it @felixs Karp ....can we still be friends?
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Christos

Christos said:


> Dont take it back. Join #TeamStosta.


Although I must admit #TeamStosta is soulless and hopeless. Something to do with ginger...

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Silver



Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 8


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## Christos

Silver said:


> View attachment 97189
> 
> 
> View attachment 97188


Not entirely off topic if we consider #TeamStosta vs #TeamUncleFeliksKarp .
It seems there has to be a winner in order to be a looser hence HE vs LE so I am suggesting one of the above teams needs to be debated or agreed to be the HE team.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## BioHAZarD

This thread is awesome. Some decent banter in a good spirit.

Sent from my Note 4


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## DoubleD

BioHAZarD said:


> This thread is awesome. Some decent banter in a good spirit.
> 
> Sent from my Note 4



It was a disaster though, now its awesome, delete page 1 to 12

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fuzz

Wow, this is one hotly contested thread! 

Having caught the last three pages, this seems to be more about instilling a revolution - the apparent LE public getting to the point where they'd like to lead the apparent HE Marie Antoinette-esque snobs to the guillotine. Lol. Can't see much of a discussion between the gear here.

What even classifies vape gear as High End? Is it:

1. The Price?
2. The Rarity?
3. The Use of Expensive Materials?
4. Just talked up by parties that can afford and justify the purchase to themselves?
5. The associated engineering and ergonomics of the product?

Talking on each point:

1. I could buy a normal pico and melo 3 combo for R25k - do I now own HE gear? Or am I just a silly sod for falling for that without researching the associated value?

2. Does having something that's one of a kind with a limited production run really increase its value? Is there a demand for that product in the open market? I could also argue that my one of a kind VGOD Pro 150 is the only one in the world with a zig zag scratch on it signed by Nelson Mandela (see it's one of a kind) is worth more than your meteorite metal, Damascus steel, samurai blood etched dripper, since both are again one of a kind. I suppose if someone really wanted my VGOD, since they're a big Nelson Mandela fan, would find more value in that than the aforementioned dripper.

3. Expensive materials. This is interesting. I mean in a car you have materials like carbon kevlar used which is exotic, expensive but also serves a purpose. My mod has resin impregnated iron wood from 17th century South America beset with actual insects that are now extinct, all topped with the finest blood tanzanite money can buy. But does it really add any function to my mod? I'm not sure as I'll leave that to you to decide.

4. Talked up? Well if I sold snake oil as the best and most flavourful vape juice ever created, that's one thing. But if via my immense marketing budget I was able to convince enough people that this is true, then I would have created a following. Each to their own here. Now imagine I managed to convince enough people that this is the best, period. Now I have an army of fan-boys that I've created. They will also fight for my product till the end of time on Internet forums, and judge anyone that points out that it is in fact just snake oil.

5. Now this rings true with me. Something that was well engineered and thought out. Designed with the best fit and form factor in mind. Where usability is at the fore and it's just a great product in terms of quality. However I spent millions on researching this product, and perfected the technology that went into it. This would be a great product, and it's desirable. However, someone took my design, broke it down and copied it, and released it to the free market at a lower price since they didn't have to foot the immense R&D cost that went into it. Not very fun anymore is it? That being said. What I designed was still based off of what was already there. So in a macro scale is my product really just a perfected clone of existing technology? 

The point here is that the HE and LE legions just make something out of nothing. If whatever they purchase fits what the group determines as higher value to them, it will then become HE in their circle. The associated snobbery is what gets me every time though. On one hand you have those who say that my product is superior to yours due to any combination of the above points, and the other side that pleads poverty, cannot recognise the value, or just doesn't identify with the other side, in itself creating reverse snobbery.

In essence, I was mortified to hear that something like a Therion 166 and VGOD Pro 150 doesn't qualify as HE, nor is my Goon 24 or Apocalypse Gen 2. I'm not sure why, but to me it is, so I'll just enjoy my setups and in my mind they'll be the best ever, even if they aren't swathed in Stab Wood and signed off by Carol Shelby.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 10 | Agree 2 | Winner 4


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## Alex

Fuzz said:


> Wow, this is one hotly contested thread!
> 
> Having caught the last three pages, this seems to be more about instilling a revolution - the apparent LE public getting to the point where they'd like to lead the apparent HE Marie Antoinette-esque snobs to the guillotine. Lol. Can't see much of a discussion between the gear here.
> 
> What even classifies vape gear as High End? Is it:
> 
> 1. The Price?
> 2. The Rarity?
> 3. The Use of Expensive Materials?
> 4. Just talked up by parties that can afford and justify the purchase to themselves?
> 5. The associated engineering and ergonomics of the product?
> 
> Talking on each point:
> 
> 1. I could buy a normal pico and melo 3 combo for R25k - do I now own HE gear? Or am I just a silly sod for falling for that without researching the associated value?
> 
> 2. Does having something that's one of a kind with a limited production run really increase its value? Is there a demand for that product in the open market? I could also argue that my one of a kind VGOD Pro 150 is the only one in the world with a zig zag scratch on it signed by Nelson Mandela (see it's one of a kind) is worth more than your meteorite metal, Damascus steel, samurai blood etched dripper, since both are again one of a kind. I suppose if someone really wanted my VGOD, since they're a big Nelson Mandela fan, would find more value in that than the aforementioned dripper.
> 
> 3. Expensive materials. This is interesting. I mean in a car you have materials like carbon kevlar used which is exotic, expensive but also serves a purpose. My mod has resin impregnated iron wood from 17th century South America beset with actual insects that are now extinct, all topped with the finest blood tanzanite money can buy. But does it really add any function to my mod? I'm not sure as I'll leave that to you to decide.
> 
> 4. Talked up? Well if I sold snake oil as the best and most flavourful vape juice ever created, that's one thing. But if via my immense marketing budget I was able to convince enough people that this is true, then I would have created a following. Each to their own here. Now imagine I managed to convince enough people that this is the best, period. Now I have an army of fan-boys that I've created. They will also fight for my product till the end of time on Internet forums, and judge anyone that points out that it is in fact just snake oil.
> 
> 5. Now this rings true with me. Something that was well engineered and thought out. Designed with the best fit and form factor in mind. Where usability is at the fore and it's just a great product in terms of quality. However I spent millions on researching this product, and perfected the technology that went into it. This would be a great product, and it's desirable. However, someone took my design, broke it down and copied it, and released it to the free market at a lower price since they didn't have to foot the immense R&D cost that went into it. Not very fun anymore is it? That being said. What I designed was still based off of what was already there. So in a macro scale is my product really just a perfected clone of existing technology?
> 
> The point here is that the HE and LE legions just make something out of nothing. If whatever they purchase fits what the group determines as higher value to them, it will then become HE in their circle. The associated snobbery is what gets me every time though. On one hand you have those who say that my product is superior to yours due to any combination of the above points, and the other side that pleads poverty, cannot recognise the value, or just doesn't identify with the other side, in itself creating reverse snobbery.
> 
> In essence, I was mortified to hear that something like a Therion 166 and VGOD Pro 150 doesn't qualify as HE, I'm not sure why, but to me it is, so I'll just enjoy my setups and in my mind they'll be the best ever, even if they aren't swathed in Stab Wood and signed off by Carol Shelby.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Thank you @Fuzz, that was very thought provoking.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Rob Fisher

Nice post @Fuzz! Eloquent and thought out... let me give some of my 2c replies...

1. I could buy a normal pico and melo 3 combo for R25k - do I now own HE gear? Or am I just a silly sod for falling for that without researching the associated value?

Silly Sod!

2. Does having something that's one of a kind with a limited production run really increase its value?

Yes it does. Rarity is sought after by some... does it change functionality? Nope.

3. Expensive materials. This is interesting. I mean in a car you have materials like carbon kevlar used which is exotic, expensive but also serves a purpose. My mod has resin impregnated iron wood from 17th century South America beset with actual insects that are now extinct, all topped with the finest blood tanzanite money can buy. But does it really add any function to my mod? I'm not sure as I'll leave that to you to decide.

Nope it doesn't change functionality in most cases... but again see point number 2. 

4. Talked up? Well if I sold snake oil as the best and most flavourful vape juice ever created, that's one thing. But if via my immense marketing budget I was able to convince enough people that this is true, then I would have created a following. Each to their own here. Now imagine I managed to convince enough people that this is the best, period. Now I have an army of fan-boys that I've created. They will also fight for my product till the end of time on Internet forums, and judge anyone that points out that it is in fact just snake oil.

Oh yes and now we are talking... and I agree 100%. The Hurricane V2 was a perfect example... it was talked up (and I guess it was easy to take in the hype because thier pervious version 1.3 atty was pretty well loved) and was expensive and was one of the kakkest atties I ever bought.

5. Now this rings true with me. Something that was well engineered and thought out. Designed with the best fit and form factor in mind. Where usability is at the fore and it's just a great product in terms of quality. However I spent millions on researching this product, and perfected the technology that went into it. This would be a great product, and it's desirable. However, someone took my design, broke it down and copied it, and released it to the free market at a lower price since they didn't have to foot the immense R&D cost that went into it. Not very fun anymore is it? That being said. What I designed was still based off of what was already there. So in a macro scale is my product really just a perfected clone of existing technology? 

Yes this is where the water gets a little muddy... slight or major changes to an existing design. That's why I really like the Billet Box... it was a revolutionary design and not copied from anything else and it's a bloody marvellous product.

The point here is that the HE and LE legions just make something out of nothing. If whatever they purchase fits what the group determines as higher value to them, it will then become HE in their circle. The associated snobbery is what gets me every time though. On one hand you have those who say that my product is superior to yours due to any combination of the above points, and the other side that pleads poverty, cannot recognise the value, or just doesn't identify with the other side, in itself creating reverse snobbery.

No argument here.

In essence, I was mortified to hear that something like a Therion 166 and VGOD Pro 150 doesn't qualify as HE, nor is my Goon 24 or Apocalypse Gen 2. I'm not sure why, but to me it is, so I'll just enjoy my setups and in my mind they'll be the best ever, even if they aren't swathed in Stab Wood and signed off by Carol Shelby.

There are products that stand out (and are awesome) that are not considered HE because they are made in China. I would agree the Therion is one of those products... the VGod not so much... my VGod was crap... kak button and it whined... 

It's the same argument that happens in life and just about every other product grouping... VW vs Merc vs Ferrari... Chinese phones vs iPhone and S7's... Thoroughbred pets with papers vs SPCA specials... Checkers vs Woolies... Taurus firearm vs Glock... and the list goes on... but we should all be happy for each other in this LE vs HE discussion because we are all off stinking cigarettes!

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 2


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## BioHAZarD

Rob Fisher said:


> Nice post @Fuzz! Eloquent and thought out... let me give some of my 2c replies...
> 
> 1. I could buy a normal pico and melo 3 combo for R25k - do I now own HE gear? Or am I just a silly sod for falling for that without researching the associated value?
> 
> Silly Sod!
> 
> 2. Does having something that's one of a kind with a limited production run really increase its value?
> 
> Yes it does. Rarity is sought after by some... does it change functionality? Nope.
> 
> 3. Expensive materials. This is interesting. I mean in a car you have materials like carbon kevlar used which is exotic, expensive but also serves a purpose. My mod has resin impregnated iron wood from 17th century South America beset with actual insects that are now extinct, all topped with the finest blood tanzanite money can buy. But does it really add any function to my mod? I'm not sure as I'll leave that to you to decide.
> 
> Nope it doesn't change functionality in most cases... but again see point number 2.
> 
> 4. Talked up? Well if I sold snake oil as the best and most flavourful vape juice ever created, that's one thing. But if via my immense marketing budget I was able to convince enough people that this is true, then I would have created a following. Each to their own here. Now imagine I managed to convince enough people that this is the best, period. Now I have an army of fan-boys that I've created. They will also fight for my product till the end of time on Internet forums, and judge anyone that points out that it is in fact just snake oil.
> 
> Oh yes and now we are talking... and I agree 100%. The Hurricane V2 was a perfect example... it was talked up (and I guess it was easy to take in the hype because thier pervious version 1.3 atty was pretty well loved) and was expensive and was one of the kakkest atties I ever bought.
> 
> 5. Now this rings true with me. Something that was well engineered and thought out. Designed with the best fit and form factor in mind. Where usability is at the fore and it's just a great product in terms of quality. However I spent millions on researching this product, and perfected the technology that went into it. This would be a great product, and it's desirable. However, someone took my design, broke it down and copied it, and released it to the free market at a lower price since they didn't have to foot the immense R&D cost that went into it. Not very fun anymore is it? That being said. What I designed was still based off of what was already there. So in a macro scale is my product really just a perfected clone of existing technology?
> 
> Yes this is where the water gets a little muddy... slight or major changes to an existing design. That's why I really like the Billet Box... it was a revolutionary design and not copied from anything else and it's a bloody marvellous product.
> 
> The point here is that the HE and LE legions just make something out of nothing. If whatever they purchase fits what the group determines as higher value to them, it will then become HE in their circle. The associated snobbery is what gets me every time though. On one hand you have those who say that my product is superior to yours due to any combination of the above points, and the other side that pleads poverty, cannot recognise the value, or just doesn't identify with the other side, in itself creating reverse snobbery.
> 
> No argument here.
> 
> In essence, I was mortified to hear that something like a Therion 166 and VGOD Pro 150 doesn't qualify as HE, nor is my Goon 24 or Apocalypse Gen 2. I'm not sure why, but to me it is, so I'll just enjoy my setups and in my mind they'll be the best ever, even if they aren't swathed in Stab Wood and signed off by Carol Shelby.
> 
> There are products that stand out (and are awesome) that are not considered HE because they are made in China. I would agree the Therion is one of those products... the VGod not so much... my VGod was crap... kak button and it whined...
> 
> It's the same argument that happens in life and just about every other product grouping... VW vs Merc vs Ferrari... Chinese phones vs iPhone and S7's... Thoroughbred pets with papers vs SPCA specials... Checkers vs Woolies... Taurus firearm vs Glock... and the list goes on... but we should all be happy for each other in this LE vs HE discussion because we are all off stinking cigarettes!


damn @Rob Fisher 

Never thought I would see the day that your signature changed

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rob Fisher

BioHAZarD said:


> damn @Rob Fisher
> 
> Never thought I would see the day that your signature changed



Me neither @BioHAZarD!

Reactions: Like 2


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## BioHAZarD

Rob Fisher said:


> Me neither @BioHAZarD!


poor avril

Reactions: Can relate 1


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## Rob Fisher

BioHAZarD said:


> poor avril



Avril is still with me (and always will be)... she is watching from the display cabinet. 

PS now you have made me all nostalgic... maybe I should dig from some 9mg Tropical Ice, build a micro coil and fire her up just for old time sake!

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## BioHAZarD

Rob Fisher said:


> Avril is still with me (and always will be)... she is watching from the display cabinet.
> 
> PS now you have made me all nostalgic... maybe I should dig from some 9mg Tropical Ice, build a micro coil and fire her up just for old time sake!


NO NO

you have to test the goon 1.5 on the mech
don't get distracted
FOCUS
u can get nostalgic tomorrow

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Scissorhands

Fuzz said:


> Wow, this is one hotly contested thread!
> 
> Having caught the last three pages, this seems to be more about instilling a revolution - the apparent LE public getting to the point where they'd like to lead the apparent HE Marie Antoinette-esque snobs to the guillotine. Lol. Can't see much of a discussion between the gear here.
> 
> What even classifies vape gear as High End? Is it:
> 
> 1. The Price?
> 2. The Rarity?
> 3. The Use of Expensive Materials?
> 4. Just talked up by parties that can afford and justify the purchase to themselves?
> 5. The associated engineering and ergonomics of the product?
> 
> Talking on each point:
> 
> 1. I could buy a normal pico and melo 3 combo for R25k - do I now own HE gear? Or am I just a silly sod for falling for that without researching the associated value?
> 
> 2. Does having something that's one of a kind with a limited production run really increase its value? Is there a demand for that product in the open market? I could also argue that my one of a kind VGOD Pro 150 is the only one in the world with a zig zag scratch on it signed by Nelson Mandela (see it's one of a kind) is worth more than your meteorite metal, Damascus steel, samurai blood etched dripper, since both are again one of a kind. I suppose if someone really wanted my VGOD, since they're a big Nelson Mandela fan, would find more value in that than the aforementioned dripper.
> 
> 3. Expensive materials. This is interesting. I mean in a car you have materials like carbon kevlar used which is exotic, expensive but also serves a purpose. My mod has resin impregnated iron wood from 17th century South America beset with actual insects that are now extinct, all topped with the finest blood tanzanite money can buy. But does it really add any function to my mod? I'm not sure as I'll leave that to you to decide.
> 
> 4. Talked up? Well if I sold snake oil as the best and most flavourful vape juice ever created, that's one thing. But if via my immense marketing budget I was able to convince enough people that this is true, then I would have created a following. Each to their own here. Now imagine I managed to convince enough people that this is the best, period. Now I have an army of fan-boys that I've created. They will also fight for my product till the end of time on Internet forums, and judge anyone that points out that it is in fact just snake oil.
> 
> 5. Now this rings true with me. Something that was well engineered and thought out. Designed with the best fit and form factor in mind. Where usability is at the fore and it's just a great product in terms of quality. However I spent millions on researching this product, and perfected the technology that went into it. This would be a great product, and it's desirable. However, someone took my design, broke it down and copied it, and released it to the free market at a lower price since they didn't have to foot the immense R&D cost that went into it. Not very fun anymore is it? That being said. What I designed was still based off of what was already there. So in a macro scale is my product really just a perfected clone of existing technology?
> 
> The point here is that the HE and LE legions just make something out of nothing. If whatever they purchase fits what the group determines as higher value to them, it will then become HE in their circle. The associated snobbery is what gets me every time though. On one hand you have those who say that my product is superior to yours due to any combination of the above points, and the other side that pleads poverty, cannot recognise the value, or just doesn't identify with the other side, in itself creating reverse snobbery.
> 
> In essence, I was mortified to hear that something like a Therion 166 and VGOD Pro 150 doesn't qualify as HE, nor is my Goon 24 or Apocalypse Gen 2. I'm not sure why, but to me it is, so I'll just enjoy my setups and in my mind they'll be the best ever, even if they aren't swathed in Stab Wood and signed off by Carol Shelby.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Nice write up, to be honest, i really dont care what "class" my (or anyones) gear falls into, if it does what i want from it and built with longevity in mind, im happy!

Personaly I wouldn't consider anything that comes out of China a "collectable/rare/HE" (including my favorite atty : Hadaly) simply because that is the opposite of the China business model and simply cant be compared to something crafter by a European jeweler for example, im by no means saying Europe/America ect. Is not capable of producing crap , manufacture outside of china is expensive and runs are limited (due to small scale operation ) , quality should be expected but is not a given. 

Regards

Reactions: Like 3


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## DougP

This is where it gets interesting 
I own a set of Callaway golf Clubs. American design, rated tops, used by tour players 
.... and yup look carefully
...Made in China
If one today takes a closer look at almost all items I am sure you will see a "made in China" label tucked away somewhere on it 
So if the mindset of 
Non HE - made In China 
HE - made in "the west"
Applies where would one slot in vape gear that would come from, For example a India, if they started producing vape gear 

In essence is there a difference between:
Designed in China - Manufactured in China Designed in USA - Manufactured in China 

Let's take the skyline RTA for example if it remained exactly as is but was sent by its designers to be manufactured in China would it be written off as a Non HE device 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## DougP

Rob has highlighted another perfect debatable example here .... 

"There are products that stand out (and are awesome) that are not considered HE because they are made in China............ the VGOD not so much.. my VGOD was crap... Kak button and it whined...."
If we then look at silvers ESC Skyline post there was numerous guys running around using vice grips, socket sets and resorting to deep freezes and even hints of using Q20 and the likes thereof to try a release stuck juice flow control rings on their Skyline RTA's to the point where they where actually damaged. There was even people driving around to other peoples homes after hours to borrow/use 5mm socket sets to loosen seized juice flow control rings 
If using the same principles then the skyline RTA (built in Europe) should then fall into the same category of NON HE given its problems. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Anneries

I tried my utmost best to stay out of this thread for a single reason and according to me the main issue with "HE gear".

The main issue I see with HE vs non-HE is the classification and seperation. I am on other forums aswell, where there are also "Hand made/Limited Runs/Special Edition/First batch" sections of the market. Knives/pens/torches/handerchieves/spin tops/backpacks/wallets/razors you name it, they have a "High End" section. 

In non of the other forums have I ever seen this type of "hyper sensitivity" about the difference. Someone will post a photo and review of his ZAR121 000 Mont Blanc Skeleton pen, everyone will go gaga over it and move on. The next day I will post a photo of my new R400 Lamy Safari and everyone will congratulate me and give me their input on the use of said pen. Someone will arrange for a group purchase of some lost art Double edge razor blade or soap, it will be done everyone will wait forever and be happy when they get it. Without people trolling the Shave of the days to see how someones one out of 100 blades that was mis alligned in the razor gave him a nick.

To me, if I have to play along with the HE vs non-HE the following SHOULD apply to HE, if it does I cannot confirm as I do not own HE vape gear. But this is what makes it for me in all other things I collect:

1. Well designed, not necsarly unique but well designed. Lets face it there is very little to nothing new under the sun. 
2. Good aftersales service. Actually Fantastic aftersales sevice, you shouldnt have to wait for a response for weeks (NOT EVEN IF THEY ARE BUSY WITH A LIMITED RUN).
3. Fit and Finish should be unmatched. No rattles, tollerances should be minimal but not even that should hinder operation. 
4. It should work FOR YOU. 99% of the "men" on the street will not know the difference between my Mont Blanc Choppin and a Bic.
5. Instructions. Even if it is obvious to me how to use a converter, and it would be for 100% of Fountain Pen users. If I gave any of my fountain pens that have converters to anyone else in my family they will thing the coverter is empty and chuck it in the bin. That being said, with all my fountain pens, only one had a little page in on how to use and care for the pen. (With details on how to contact them). It would seem that if you can pay the price of that pen you should be have a fair knowledge on how to use the pen and look after it. 

As I have said. I cannot comment on vaping HE gear. There is still one "HE" RTA that I want, and one day hopefully I will. But other than that, nothing tickeld my fancy enough yet to spend days dreaming about it.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 6


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## stevie g

I will own an ESG Skyline one day but until then I'm happy with my daily beater Hohm Slice and AVO24. 

I'd call this combination bulletproof even and belongs in the midrange.

Low end for me is something built to break. Bear with me now I'm being honest. 

A Griffin 22 on a eleaf ipower 80w is low end in my opinion. Why?. Well the griffin has a press fitted deck which over time if carried, dropped, thrown in a bag etc the press fit seal will slowly deteriorate. 

The Ipower 80W has a built in battery so when the battery needs to be replaced you throw the entire thing away and buy a new one.

Therefore the definition of HE is a device bought once, intended to last decades.

LE is a device with planned obsolescence that will fail in a year or 2.

What separates these classes is design philosophy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Silver

Blends Of Distinction said:


> If we then look at silvers ESC Skyline post there was numerous guys running around using vice grips, socket sets and resorting to deep freezes and even hints of using Q20 and the likes thereof to try a release stuck juice flow control rings on their Skyline RTA's to the point where they where actually damaged. There was even people driving around to other peoples homes after hours to borrow/use 5mm socket sets to loosen seized juice flow control rings



@Blends Of Distinction - you are right - I was one of the people that had to resort to the "freezer followed by hot water on the outer" method to get my juice flow going smoothly.

At that point I was thinking of you - maybe you could have provided a shoelace to MacGuyver a solution of some sort...

I was really upset and frustrated that night when I discovered my juice flow was stuck. Certainly didn't feel very HE at the time. (Even though it was stuck open and the vape was still great). But thankfully it got resolved - and its been several tankfuls later - and I am starting to understand why this tank is so called "high end". Look it still needs a helluva lot of time in my vape cave to catch up to the reliability stats of some of my other "low end" tanks - but time will tell. So far the performance is fabulous for my style of vaping.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Strontium

Fuzz said:


> Wow, this is one hotly contested thread!
> 
> Having caught the last three pages, this seems to be more about instilling a revolution - the apparent LE public getting to the point where they'd like to lead the apparent HE Marie Antoinette-esque snobs to the guillotine. Lol. Can't see much of a discussion between the gear here.
> 
> What even classifies vape gear as High End? Is it:
> 
> 1. The Price?
> 2. The Rarity?
> 3. The Use of Expensive Materials?
> 4. Just talked up by parties that can afford and justify the purchase to themselves?
> 5. The associated engineering and ergonomics of the product?
> 
> Talking on each point:
> 
> 1. I could buy a normal pico and melo 3 combo for R25k - do I now own HE gear? Or am I just a silly sod for falling for that without researching the associated value?
> 
> 2. Does having something that's one of a kind with a limited production run really increase its value? Is there a demand for that product in the open market? I could also argue that my one of a kind VGOD Pro 150 is the only one in the world with a zig zag scratch on it signed by Nelson Mandela (see it's one of a kind) is worth more than your meteorite metal, Damascus steel, samurai blood etched dripper, since both are again one of a kind. I suppose if someone really wanted my VGOD, since they're a big Nelson Mandela fan, would find more value in that than the aforementioned dripper.
> 
> 3. Expensive materials. This is interesting. I mean in a car you have materials like carbon kevlar used which is exotic, expensive but also serves a purpose. My mod has resin impregnated iron wood from 17th century South America beset with actual insects that are now extinct, all topped with the finest blood tanzanite money can buy. But does it really add any function to my mod? I'm not sure as I'll leave that to you to decide.
> 
> 4. Talked up? Well if I sold snake oil as the best and most flavourful vape juice ever created, that's one thing. But if via my immense marketing budget I was able to convince enough people that this is true, then I would have created a following. Each to their own here. Now imagine I managed to convince enough people that this is the best, period. Now I have an army of fan-boys that I've created. They will also fight for my product till the end of time on Internet forums, and judge anyone that points out that it is in fact just snake oil.
> 
> 5. Now this rings true with me. Something that was well engineered and thought out. Designed with the best fit and form factor in mind. Where usability is at the fore and it's just a great product in terms of quality. However I spent millions on researching this product, and perfected the technology that went into it. This would be a great product, and it's desirable. However, someone took my design, broke it down and copied it, and released it to the free market at a lower price since they didn't have to foot the immense R&D cost that went into it. Not very fun anymore is it? That being said. What I designed was still based off of what was already there. So in a macro scale is my product really just a perfected clone of existing technology?
> 
> The point here is that the HE and LE legions just make something out of nothing. If whatever they purchase fits what the group determines as higher value to them, it will then become HE in their circle. The associated snobbery is what gets me every time though. On one hand you have those who say that my product is superior to yours due to any combination of the above points, and the other side that pleads poverty, cannot recognise the value, or just doesn't identify with the other side, in itself creating reverse snobbery.
> 
> In essence, I was mortified to hear that something like a Therion 166 and VGOD Pro 150 doesn't qualify as HE, nor is my Goon 24 or Apocalypse Gen 2. I'm not sure why, but to me it is, so I'll just enjoy my setups and in my mind they'll be the best ever, even if they aren't swathed in Stab Wood and signed off by Carol Shelby.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A therion isn't HE?? Pffftt whoever thinks that can kiss my pucker. It's quality materials, well designed and brilliantly manufactured.
So it doesn't cost a hundred grand, don't care it's flawless.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Thanks 1


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## RichJB

Blends Of Distinction said:


> This is where it gets interesting
> I own a set of Callaway golf Clubs. American design, rated tops, used by tour players
> .... and yup look carefully
> ...Made in China



I had an eye-opening experience many years ago. I was following Tony Johnstone at a golf tournament and got close enough to have a squiz in his bag. He was using EZ irons which were the cheapest kakkest irons you could get at that stage. Of course, he wasn't using them off the shelf. They were reshafted, regripped, had lead tape to change the swing balance. But they were EZ irons.

Regarding the points raised earlier around materials, design, rarity, etc, I think we should add "personal importance of vaping". I know musicians who will drive a thirty year old Datsun - but they have a priceless vintage Gibson guitar and 1000 CDs in their collection. And young gamers who don't even have furniture in their apartment - but they have a 30k computer gaming rig and 150 games on the shelf. But then, they would define themselves as musicians or gamers. It's the single most important thing for them. I would never define myself as a vaper. It's a utility item, as cigarettes were, so I spend accordingly.



stevie g said:


> Therefore the definition of HE is a device bought once, intended to last decades.



This is the thing I don't get. Vaping technology is in its infancy, newer and better devices are being released all the time. Just two years ago, a dual-cell 100W mod that did nickel and titanium TC was a cutting-edge device. Now you could barely give that mod away, it's so dated. What is the point of buying a device designed to last decades when you will, in any case, be vaping something different in six months?

If manufacturers are engineering in failure after three months, they have it spot-on because that is what the customer wants. Vapers aren't distraught when their gear breaks, they are delighted. If they bought five atties and three mods every month when they already have 50 atties and 35 mods, they would start to feel guilty about the expenditure. But if something breaks, they can tell their SO that they now *have to* buy a new one because "look, it's broken".

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 4


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## stevie g

@RichJB my buying motivations are driven by longevity regardless of what's the next new thing.

My leprechaun might be outdated but it'll work for me for a long time.

I'm not sure we'll be seeing that much more innovation as you expect. Where do you go after a DNA or FSK board, anything newer and better will be incremental not like gen1 to gen3 devices.

Plus the FDA and TPD are stifling innovation and the Chinese mostly copy.

I don't think anything that gets released between now and when my mod finally breaks will tempt me to spend money.


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## incredible_hullk

So right @Blends Of Distinction I had to fork out r800 to get a new deck as my juice flow was stuck tight and had to use pliers screwdriver etc to get it away from the deck 

Did this ever happen to any mass produced atty - no. Do I still dig the skyline - sure now have 2

I don't care he non he, just want flavor

Only he for me is Mont Blanc, will happily add to my collection


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## Rob Fisher

RichJB said:


> Regarding the points raised earlier around materials, design, rarity, etc, I think we should add "personal importance of vaping". I know musicians who will drive a thirty year old Datsun - but they have a priceless vintage Gibson guitar and 1000 CDs in their collection. And young gamers who don't even have furniture in their apartment - but they have a 30k computer gaming rig and 150 games on the shelf. But then, they would define themselves as musicians or gamers. It's the single most important thing for them. I would never define myself as a vaper. It's a utility item, as cigarettes were, so I spend accordingly.



@RichJB you make the most important point of all and one most missed... without being overly dramatic vaping saved my life... the difference between my health before and after vaping is huge... yes I have an over the top personality and I always overdo everything but still you have hit the nail on the head... I'm a Vaper!

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## DougP

Watching this thread I'm trying to determine exactly what people use to draw that line between what's is deemed to be HE and a Non HE item ....
It's appears that it comes down to individual decisions based on their own criteria 
So far I have deduced (if I read correctly) the following lines ...
1. Broad spectrum - Made in Chine versus made else where 
2. Build quality of item
3. Uniqueness (one of a kind) 
4. Price 
5. User experience (vape quality, taste etc)
There certainly at this point does not seem to be a clear definition of what defines the line between the two.

I own the following :
SX Q class mini
VGOD pro 150 
Therion DNA 166 
Noisey Cricket V2.5

Sitting here and looking at them I'm trying wrap my mind around which one of the two categories each one of these would fit into based on the varying criteria mentioned 
Is the line also that defined that if my Therion DNA 166 does not fit into HE then it's merely a Non HE and no different then to a I-just 2 or smog alien 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Silver

All I know is my Evod1 is *very high end*

It's quite rare these days
You need to know the right people to get one...

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## DougP

Okay I've moved them all into my own HE category based on my own criteria 
1. Each one mechanically works flawlessly
2. They all my cherished items which I have paid for (whether it be R 2 000 or R 20 000)
3. Each one fills a certain vaping style I want at different times 
4. And "hell yes" last but most importantly they keep me the hell away from ever touching a cigarette again 
So winner all round 


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Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## RichJB

stevie g said:


> I'm not sure we'll be seeing that much more innovation as you expect.



Seriously? Vaping still has inherently hazardous set-ups that can blow your face off, inefficient batteries that run flat in a couple of hours if you vape at high wattages, tanks that crack and leak and deliver dry hits, juice ingredients that cause harshness or bad reactions, devices that generally don't talk to your other electronic gadgets - and you think that won't change much over time? Regulation will drive innovation, not stifle it.

Just take the introduction of 20700 batteries now. 3000mAh from a 30A battery, basically double the capacity we were getting before. And 20700s aren't the end of the line either. I think we've barely scratched the surface of where technology can go in vaping.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Fuzz

Thanks for the response @Rob Fisher - I quite enjoy discussions like this - it gets the thought processes working at full tilt!

I echo your sentiments mostly here. Being a car guy, quite a few parallels can be drawn between the vaping world and the car world, and possibly just about any sub-culture, if you look closely enough. 

I'm not sure that I agree on HE goods not coming from China and HE only being sourced from let's call it the first world manufacturing space. It's like saying the BMW's manufactured in South Africa aren't premium quality, yet those made in the USA are (interesting fact from one of my friends at BMW is that SA made cars are far superior to their US counterparts).

To me, High End focuses on perceived quality. We see it everyday and are subliminally programmed to accept this, as an example, we find some manufacturers stating that their PEEK insulators are from Germany (automatically we assume that it's superior). On the other end of the scale, we have the entire 'Designed in Europe; Manufactured in China' debate. To me, that means nothing. Who designed it in Europe? Was it a Euro Team who specialises in Vape designs? Did they fly a team from China, to Europe on a focus session to design the gear there and then flew them back once the design was completed? Were the designers the most distinguished in the world? What qualifies them as good designers?

In terms of rarity, I myself, have begun to dabble in collecting rare car parts and wheels. I can identify fully with the thinking. But I have also learnt that expensive isn't quite exactly better and better isn't necessarily expensive. Adding to that, there are quite a few examples where mass produced items have suddenly become rare, due to many factors, and examples in good condition being difficult to come by. Again, it all comes to perceived quality, and how much the next man is willing to pay for that privilege.

The point is that we all latch onto the marketing bravado that we want to believe in, and conveniently ignore the rest. So through all of this, I still don't really have a clear definition of what makes vape gear high end. But with that in mind, perhaps it was supposed to be vague and up to the community at large to decide...



Rob Fisher said:


> Nice post @Fuzz! Eloquent and thought out... let me give some of my 2c replies...
> 
> 1. I could buy a normal pico and melo 3 combo for R25k - do I now own HE gear? Or am I just a silly sod for falling for that without researching the associated value?
> 
> Silly Sod!
> 
> 2. Does having something that's one of a kind with a limited production run really increase its value?
> 
> Yes it does. Rarity is sought after by some... does it change functionality? Nope.
> 
> 3. Expensive materials. This is interesting. I mean in a car you have materials like carbon kevlar used which is exotic, expensive but also serves a purpose. My mod has resin impregnated iron wood from 17th century South America beset with actual insects that are now extinct, all topped with the finest blood tanzanite money can buy. But does it really add any function to my mod? I'm not sure as I'll leave that to you to decide.
> 
> Nope it doesn't change functionality in most cases... but again see point number 2.
> 
> 4. Talked up? Well if I sold snake oil as the best and most flavourful vape juice ever created, that's one thing. But if via my immense marketing budget I was able to convince enough people that this is true, then I would have created a following. Each to their own here. Now imagine I managed to convince enough people that this is the best, period. Now I have an army of fan-boys that I've created. They will also fight for my product till the end of time on Internet forums, and judge anyone that points out that it is in fact just snake oil.
> 
> Oh yes and now we are talking... and I agree 100%. The Hurricane V2 was a perfect example... it was talked up (and I guess it was easy to take in the hype because thier pervious version 1.3 atty was pretty well loved) and was expensive and was one of the kakkest atties I ever bought.
> 
> 5. Now this rings true with me. Something that was well engineered and thought out. Designed with the best fit and form factor in mind. Where usability is at the fore and it's just a great product in terms of quality. However I spent millions on researching this product, and perfected the technology that went into it. This would be a great product, and it's desirable. However, someone took my design, broke it down and copied it, and released it to the free market at a lower price since they didn't have to foot the immense R&D cost that went into it. Not very fun anymore is it? That being said. What I designed was still based off of what was already there. So in a macro scale is my product really just a perfected clone of existing technology?
> 
> Yes this is where the water gets a little muddy... slight or major changes to an existing design. That's why I really like the Billet Box... it was a revolutionary design and not copied from anything else and it's a bloody marvellous product.
> 
> The point here is that the HE and LE legions just make something out of nothing. If whatever they purchase fits what the group determines as higher value to them, it will then become HE in their circle. The associated snobbery is what gets me every time though. On one hand you have those who say that my product is superior to yours due to any combination of the above points, and the other side that pleads poverty, cannot recognise the value, or just doesn't identify with the other side, in itself creating reverse snobbery.
> 
> No argument here.
> 
> In essence, I was mortified to hear that something like a Therion 166 and VGOD Pro 150 doesn't qualify as HE, nor is my Goon 24 or Apocalypse Gen 2. I'm not sure why, but to me it is, so I'll just enjoy my setups and in my mind they'll be the best ever, even if they aren't swathed in Stab Wood and signed off by Carol Shelby.
> 
> There are products that stand out (and are awesome) that are not considered HE because they are made in China. I would agree the Therion is one of those products... the VGod not so much... my VGod was crap... kak button and it whined...
> 
> It's the same argument that happens in life and just about every other product grouping... VW vs Merc vs Ferrari... Chinese phones vs iPhone and S7's... Thoroughbred pets with papers vs SPCA specials... Checkers vs Woolies... Taurus firearm vs Glock... and the list goes on... but we should all be happy for each other in this LE vs HE discussion because we are all off stinking cigarettes!

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


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## DougP

@RichJB valid point you have there. 
Talking about innovation and technology if you watched Carte Blanche the other night
Look at where blow up dolls are heading. R80 000 gets you the latest latex silicon blow up doll. Interchangeable parts and they look and feel almost 100% human, can be bent into any position and best of all no headaches and always willing
Dam exciting times ahead 
Now if somebody can just teach her to cook 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Reactions: Funny 5 | Creative 1


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## Anneries

Blends Of Distinction said:


> Watching this thread I'm trying to determine exactly what people use to draw that line between what's is deemed to be HE and a Non HE item ....
> It's appears that it comes down to individual decisions based on their own criteria



That is the problem, we *are *all trying to find what is the line. BUT in actual fact, and I am busy hunting down the post, it was posted on this forum that there are a little group of elite vapers that took it upon themselves to setup a set of rules, not posted publicly, where by they classify this or that device/accessory as HE.


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## RichJB

Blends Of Distinction said:


> Now if somebody can just teach her to cook



And make Aliens and re-wick your atties!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## stevie g

Blends Of Distinction said:


> @RichJB valid point you have there.
> Talking about innovation and technology if you watched Carte Blanche the other night
> Look at where blow up dolls are heading. R80 000 gets you the latest latex silicon blow up doll. Interchangeable parts and they look and feel almost 100% human, can be bent into any position and best of all no headaches and always willing
> Dam exciting times ahead
> Now if somebody can just teach her to cook
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Reactions: Like 1


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## Anneries

Ok I think we have been missing the point of this thread over the last 15 pages

OP: 



Scouse45 said:


> im getting a little confused about all this. I tend to feel like if we don't hav an HE mod or tank. Then it's not really interesting anymore on The forum anymore. I don't dig it hey it's proper divided. Anyone hav anything to share?



If you want a definition of HE, look here: 

https://www.ecigssa.co.za/what-makes-high-end-high-end-part-1.t33403/

And this will be my last contribution to this thread as I feel exactly what @Scouse45 said in the very first post, with a twist. I do not feel that it is the HE gear that divided the forum but the mis-interpretation by most of the members that if there is HE, then everything else must be Low end ...?!

Reactions: Like 2


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## stevie g

RichJB said:


> Seriously? Vaping still has inherently hazardous set-ups that can blow your face off, inefficient batteries that run flat in a couple of hours if you vape at high wattages, tanks that crack and leak and deliver dry hits, juice ingredients that cause harshness or bad reactions, devices that generally don't talk to your other electronic gadgets - and you think that won't change much over time? Regulation will drive innovation, not stifle it.
> 
> Just take the introduction of 20700 batteries now. 3000mAh from a 30A battery, basically double the capacity we were getting before. And 20700s aren't the end of the line either. I think we've barely scratched the surface of where technology can go in vaping.



Semantics - it'll be the same but better. I don't see how regulation in the current form will encourage things like new and safer battery technologies. We are living in the age of technology now and these batteries were created in spite of the FDA and Co not because of them.

Juice ingredients I'm most excited for - have any manufacturers of flavors developed anything new lately, aside from FA keeping a clean additive line?.

It's a consumer technology product much like computers which don't get upgraded as much as they did in the past.
Innovation has already been stifled in many parts of the world unless your definition of innovation is a product made by a large tobacco conglomerate like The HEET and Iqos.


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## RichJB

stevie g said:


> I don't see how regulation in the current form will encourage things like new and safer battery technologies.



You don't think it's in the vaping industry's interest to reduce the number of headline-grabbing vaping battery fires and explosions? The vaping industry has known for years that mech mods are hazardous for novice users. They did nothing about it, choosing instead to blame the user for accidents. With the failure of Cole-Bishop, vaping's biggest hope now lies in the amendments to the Tobacco Control Act proposed by Rep Duncan Hunter. One of his primary recommendations is that mech mods be banned. Vaping had years to innovate and improve mech mod safety. They chose not to. So now regulators will make that choice for them. 



stevie g said:


> We are living in the age of technology now and these batteries were created in spite of the FDA and Co not because of them.



Innovation is driven by a number of factors: need and market forces certainly. But regulation too. Vehicle manufacturers pioneered unleaded fuel and emissions controls due to regulations against air pollution. Similarly we are seeing a lot of development in renewable energy due to climate change and regulatory caps on carbon emissions. In the vaping sphere, we have seen the introduction of tobacco-less nicotine, developed specifically to serve as a legal challenge to the regulators' classification of vaping as "tobacco products".



stevie g said:


> Juice ingredients I'm most excited for - have any manufacturers of flavors developed anything new lately, aside from FA keeping a clean additive line?



Almost all manufacturers are heading towards DAAP-free lines. Removal of carcinogenic sugars from concentrates. Nicotine salts. Alternative sweeteners that are healthier and gunk coils less. Alternatives to PG. New cooling agents like WS-23. One-shots as an alternative to both commercial juice and DIY. Further research into the health aspects of all juice ingredients. Disclosure of ingredients and MSDS listings. Development of Reduced Flashpoint reformulations for no-fly concentrates. There is quite a lot happening.



stevie g said:


> Innovation has already been stifled in many parts of the world unless your definition of innovation is a product made by a large tobacco conglomerate like The HEET and Iqos.



Innovation by vaping companies may have been stifled. Innovation by tobacco and pharma companies hasn't. They realise that regulation will throw up obstacles so they look for ways around it. That is what all large successful companies do. F1 is the most regulated sport of all with a ginormous tome of technical regs that dictate what teams may and may not do. Yet they are endlessly innovative in finding ways around those regs. There is not a single car on the grid that conforms to the regulations. Finding ways to beat the system is what F1 engineers do. Car and engine development is a never-ending quest. By the end of each season, cars are way better than they were for the first race of the season. Any team that takes a month-long break from development during the season will fall off the pace horribly. Any business that views regulations as a barrier to innovation are born losers who will never become global leaders in their field. If regulation serves to Darwin them out of contention, so be it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Silver

@Lee

With reference to the following post in the whats in your hand thread:
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/whats-in-your-hand-right-now.t19/page-461#post-544507

Please explain who you are referring to by "you high end okes"
Are you referring to me?
And what is it about money that those okes are on about? 
I didnt see any discussion of money unless i missed it somewhere

Am taking the discussion here not to go off topic in that thread

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Lee

eg how much are 


Silver said:


> @Lee
> 
> With reference to the following post in the whats in your hand thread:
> https://www.ecigssa.co.za/whats-in-your-hand-right-now.t19/page-461#post-544507
> 
> Please explain who you are referring to by "you high end okes"
> Are you referring to me?
> And what is it about money that those okes are on about?
> I didnt see any discussion of money unless i missed it somewhere
> 
> Am taking the discussion here not to go off topic in that thread


e.g asking how much is the clone skylines.....

I'm sure you know where that convo was heading...

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## Christos

something special to you is in fact HE


Lee said:


> eg how much are
> 
> e.g asking how much is the clone skylines.....
> 
> I'm sure you know where that convo was heading...


I think you are just highly strung. The tips looked suspect so I asked if they were authentic. No need to go bashing etc.


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## Lee

Christos said:


> Although valid points, I suggest that something special to you is in fact HE
> 
> I think you are just highly strung. The tips looked suspect so I asked if they were authentic. No need to go bashing etc.


I went bashing by saying live & let live???
Really??

I'm highly strung? rather go and inspect some more drip tips

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Strontium

Christos said:


> something special to you is in fact HE
> 
> I think you are just highly strung. The tips looked suspect so I asked if they were authentic. No need to go bashing etc.



Oh please, you made 2 comments and both we snarky "is it a clone" "are they authentic" 
Deckie is the only guy that's tried both and he says they're identical, so what difference does it make in your life if it's authentic or clone or R5k or R5?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Christos

Lee said:


> I went bashing by saying live & let live???
> Really??
> 
> I'm highly strung? rather go and inspect some more drip tips


Please explain what money has to do with my question?
I don't see your point regardless.


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## Christos

Strontium said:


> Oh please, you made 2 comments and both we snarky "is it a clone" "are they authentic"
> Deckie is the only guy that's tried both and he says they're identical, so what difference does it make in your life if it's authentic or clone or R5k or R5?


Makes no difference bud. Hakuna your tatas. 

Just trying to understand the influx of skylines and the dodgey tips.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BioHAZarD

And here i thought everybody was gonna play nice. Oh well. Time for popcorn  

At least this is more fun than being suckered into watching Twin Peaks by your wife  

Sent from my Note 4

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 5


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## Lee

Christos said:


> Please explain what money has to do with my question?
> I don't see your point regardless.


If you read the whole thread, you would have noticed that another forum member mentioned costing!
I never said anything to you about money...

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Christos

Lee said:


> If you read the whole thread, you would have noticed that another forum member mentioned costing!
> I never said anything to you about money...


I believe @incredible_hullk wants one hence asking the price.

The LE crew is very sensitive tonight


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## incredible_hullk

Guys I have a pinched nerve and can't laugh or cry... pretty pls

Reactions: Like 1


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## incredible_hullk

Christos said:


> I believe @incredible_hullk wants one hence asking the price.
> 
> The LE crew is very sensitive tonight


Wouldn't mind @Christos have 2 auths so maybe

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## Vape_r

@Christos sorry bud I honestly wasn't informed that you were the CEO of ESG, because if you aren't then I don't understand why it affects your life brother. 

Don't be so highly strung. Like @Lee said, live and let live

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Deckie

@incredible_hullk they are 1/5th the price of the ESG.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## BioHAZarD

incredible_hullk said:


> Guys I have a pinched nerve and can't laugh or cry... pretty pls


How did you do that?


Sent from my Note 4


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## Strontium

Christos said:


> I believe @incredible_hullk wants one hence asking the price.
> 
> The LE crew is very sensitive tonight


And the Lube Brigade is probably feeling a bit hosed tonight I'm sure.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## Lee

Christos said:


> I believe @incredible_hullk wants one hence asking the price.
> 
> The LE crew is very sensitive tonight


Listen.. i have a whole cupboard of LE drip tips you can come and inspect!


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## Deckie

No need to try the authentic in my opinion.


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## incredible_hullk

BioHAZarD said:


> How did you do that?
> 
> 
> Sent from my Note 4


No idea @BioHAZarD ... no funny positions I promise


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## Christos

Wow. You guys are really petty. @Vape_r I don't see why @Lee has to bring cash to the table as it's irrelevant.
Weather you vape on a hosepipe or a pitch exhaust I don't care. 

This is really petty and unfortunate.


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## Silver

Lee said:


> eg how much are
> 
> e.g asking how much is the clone skylines.....
> 
> I'm sure you know where that convo was heading...



Hi @Lee 
Thanks for explaining

May I request in future that you direct your complaints to specific members instead of labelling a whole group such as "you high end okes". The reason I say that is it usually stirs more trouble. You are making a generalisation. I am certainly NOT one of the people it appears you are referencing in your comments.

if your comment was intended as a generalisation to stir trouble, then please refrain from that type of thing on this forum. 

If you can do that it will make for a better and more peaceful forum experience for all.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Christos

Lee said:


> Listen little man... i have a whole cupboard of LE drip tips you can come and inspect!


Grow up.


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## Lee

Silver said:


> Hi @Lee
> Thanks for explaining
> 
> May I request in future that you direct your complaints to specific members instead of labelling a whole group such as "you high end okes". The reason I say that is it usually stirs more trouble. You are making a generalisation. I am certainly NOT one of the people it appears you are referencing in your comments.
> 
> if your comment was intended as a generalisation to stir trouble, then please refrain from that type of thing on this forum.
> 
> If you can do that it will make for a better and more peaceful forum experience for all.


Not aimed at you.... at the same time please ask some members to keep their snide remarks to themselves. Thank you


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## Strontium

Vape_r said:


> @Christos sorry bud I honestly wasn't informed that you were the CEO of ESG, because if you aren't then I don't understand why it affects your life brother.
> 
> Don't be so highly strung. Like @Lee said, live and let live


He's obviously very concerned about their wellbeing having already told us about them probably not making them anymore because the clone is so spectacular.


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## BioHAZarD

incredible_hullk said:


> No idea @BioHAZarD ... no funny positions I promise


Hehe ok. Hope u feel better soon.

Sent from my Note 4

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Christos

Strontium said:


> He's obviously very concerned about their wellbeing having already told us about them probably not making them anymore because the clone is so spectacular.


It's simple actually. Once a clone is made the prouder retracts his product.


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## Strontium

Christos said:


> It's simple actually. Once a clone is made the prouder retracts his product.


Makes no difference in my life, but it might make the authentic more valuable, you should be thanking the clone ppl.


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## Silver

Lee said:


> Not aimed at you.... at the same time please ask some members to keep their snide remarks to themselves. Thank you



But you used a generalisation
And i just posted a high end tank picture in that thread
*So how am I supposed to not think you are referring to me?*

You see @Lee, i dont know you other than on this forum - and you seem to be a great vaper who has come a long way on this journey with all of us. 

But making careless comments certainly can make others feel uncomfortable even though you may not have intended it to everyone.

I am just trying my best to make folk understand that when they post things publicly they need to be considerate of others. Otherwise we just get upset people and a bad experience.

Your point about @Christos (i assume) asking whether the skylines being posted were authentic or clone is a separate issue. I did not find his questions careless. I too was interested to hear the answers to those questions.

But your comment was a generalisation on "you high end okes" - so then all the people with high end tanks in that thread got labelled as being concerned about money being an issue.

Reactions: Like 2 | Can relate 2


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## RichJB

Christos said:


> It's simple actually. Once a clone is made the prouder retracts his product.



Why would they do that? There are dozens of cheap Rolex knock-offs, it hasn't stopped Rolex from producing watches. They are two completely different markets.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Christos

RichJB said:


> Why would they do that? There are dozens of cheap Rolex knock-offs, it hasn't stopped Rolex from producing watches. They are two completely different markets.


Just looking at the past products that I enjoyed that were cloned. 
#justsaying.


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## Strontium

RichJB said:


> Why would they do that? There are dozens of cheap Rolex knock-offs, it hasn't stopped Rolex from producing watches. They are two completely different markets.


If anything, more manufacturers will start incorporating portions of the design into their products.


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## Silver

Lee said:


> Not aimed at you.... at the same time please ask some members to keep their snide remarks to themselves. Thank you



@Lee - another thing I forgot to mention

If someone makes a "snide remark" that upsets you
Rather report the post using the reporting system - or send a PM to members of the Admin and Mod team and we can remove it if it looks offensive or if it would cause trouble.

If a comment offends you, please dont make a comment publicly that may incite further upset

As for asking "some members to keep their snide remarks to themselves" - please send me a PM with the members concerned and their posts and I will discuss it with the Admin and Mod team and can deal with each matter appropriately and offline.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lee

Silver said:


> @Lee - another thing I forgot to mention
> 
> If someone makes a "snide remark" that upsets you
> Rather report the post using the reporting system - or send a PM to members of the Admin and Mod team and we can remove it if it looks offensive or like it will cause trouble.
> 
> If a comment offends you, please dont make a comment publicly that may incite further upset
> 
> As for asking "some members to keep their snide remarks to themselves" - please send me a PM with the members concerned and their posts and I will discuss it with the Admin and Mod team and can deal with each matter appropriately and offline.


It's good that you clamp down on my comments but your buddy christos is cool.
If you must know, my comment was directed at savapegear

Nevertheless, this forum has become a place where a normal guy is always looked down upon, if he isn't following the right crowd.

To all who've contributed to my journey, thank you! LONG LIVE LE
@Silver Please delete my account


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## Christos

Lee said:


> It's good that you clamp down on my comments but your buddy christos is cool.
> If you must know, my comment was directed at savapegear
> 
> Nevertheless, this forum has become a place where a normal guy is always looked down upon, if he isn't following the right crowd.
> 
> To all who've contributed to my journey, thank you! LONG LIVE LE
> @Silver Please delete my account





Lee said:


> It's good that you clamp down on my comments but your buddy christos is cool.
> If you must know, my comment was directed at savapegear (who's the biggest hypocrite of all, cause he sold me a clone last year) . I only see now I'm being "ignored" by him.
> 
> Nevertheless, this forum has become a place where a normal guy is always looked down upon, if he isn't following the right crowd.
> 
> To all who've contributed to my journey, thank you! LONG LIVE LE
> @Silver Please delete my account


I think you need to calm down and relook at your stance.

I'm merely inquisitive and you seem to be taking everything the wrong way tonight.

Getting angry is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

Why not start a PM with the parties you have an issue with and resolve the conflict that way?


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## SAVapeGear

Lee said:


> It's good that you clamp down on my comments but your buddy christos is cool.
> If you must know, my comment was directed at savapegear
> 
> Nevertheless, this forum has become a place where a normal guy is always looked down upon, if he isn't following the right crowd.
> 
> To all who've contributed to my journey, thank you! LONG LIVE LE
> @Silver Please delete my account


Where did I sell you a clone @Lee ?

And don't call me names.You don't know me


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## BioHAZarD

That juice looks frigging orange. Must be the LE effect.

Sent from my Note 4

Reactions: Funny 1 | Can relate 1


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## Strontium

Christos said:


> I think you need to calm down and relook at your stance.
> 
> I'm merely inquisitive and you seem to be taking everything the wrong way tonight.
> 
> Getting angry is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.
> 
> Why not start a PM with the parties you have an issue with and resolve the conflict like grown men?


Or like paying R4k for something and expecting other people not to enjoy their cheaper one as much


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## Lee

SAVapeGear said:


> Where did I sell you a clone @Lee ?
> 
> And don't call me names.You don't know me


Do you remember the dotmod package you sold me?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## BioHAZarD

I could have sworn i saw a post with orange juice. @Silver are you being naughty again.


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## Christos

Strontium said:


> Or like paying R4k for something and expecting other people not to enjoy their cheaper one as much


Please explain your comment. I find your conclusion to be unfounded and frankly erroneous.


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## SAVapeGear

You are the one that is causing all the issues on this Forum @Lee


Lee said:


> Do you remember the dotmod package you sold me?


Yes.I do.It was sold as an Authentic and came from Luncandy


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## Lee

Christos said:


> I think you need to calm down and relook at your stance.
> 
> I'm merely inquisitive and you seem to be taking everything the wrong way tonight.
> 
> Getting angry is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.
> 
> Why not start a PM with the parties you have an issue with and resolve the conflict


Sorry man! Did you not generalize when you said "the LE are angry tonight"?
Yet that is just fine! Maybe we're just too low class to be offended by that!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Christos

BioHAZarD said:


> I could have sworn i saw a post with orange juice. @Silver are you being naughty again.


My bad. Moved it to what's in your hand thread. I deleted after I saw I posted in the wrong thread.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Lee

T


SAVapeGear said:


> You are the one that is causing all the issues on this Forum @Lee
> 
> Yes.I do.It was sold as an Authentic and came from Luncandy


the petri clone also from lung candy?


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## BioHAZarD

Christos said:


> My bad. Moved it to what's in your hand thread. I deleted after I saw I posted in the wrong thread.


Thanks 

Sorry @Silver

Reactions: Like 1


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## SAVapeGear

Lee said:


> Do you remember the dotmod package you sold me?


Or are you talking about the Botton Fed RDA that you got with it?

You were fully aware it was a clone.


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## Christos

Lee said:


> Sorry man! Did you not generalize when you said "the LE are angry tonight"?
> Yet that is just fine! Maybe we're just too low class to be offended by that!


That's what you get for classing me into a group.  
I'm merely remarking that the LE crew is sensitive tonight. I didn't know that term resonated with you.


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## Strontium

Christos said:


> Please explain your comment. I find your conclusion to be unfounded and frankly erroneous.


Instead of running to your Thesaurus to find big words, reread my statement and I'm sure you'll understand it.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Lee

SAVapeGear said:


> Or are you talking about the Botton Fed RDA that you got with it?
> 
> You were fully aware it was a clone.


Oh for sure my man. I did know. But you're mister noclonezone! But you sell clones?!


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## KZOR

Christos said:


> The LE crew is very sensitive tonight


@Christos ........ you lucky you got away with this. 
@Lee ....... you better not leave this forum over childish shyte like this. Good reason would be making a fellow forum member pregnant who is not your wife and so on. You have been a valuable contributor and so has @Christos. Emotional decisions are most often careless ones that turn out to do more damage than good. 

I get along great with some HE owners but also have to admit that there are dicks around but same applies to LE owners as well. While there is equilibrium i could care less. A one-sided affair is what get my balls in a knot.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 3 | Winner 6 | Thanks 1


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## Christos

Strontium said:


> Instead of running to your Thesaurus to find big words, reread my statement and I'm sure you'll understand it.


If those words are big I apologise. 
My dad poor as dirt did his best to give me a proper education.
I'm sorry of my words confuse.


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## SAVapeGear

Lee said:


> Oh for sure my man. I did know. But you're mister noclonezone! But you sell clones?!


Whatever.Got it as gift and gave it to you.

Don't know what your problem is @Lee 

I almost though you are saying that I sold you clones as Authentic.


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## Christos

KZOR said:


> @Christos ........ you lucky you got away with this.
> @Lee ....... you better not leave this forum over childish shyte like this. Good reason would be making a fellow forum member pregnant who is not your wife and so on. You have been a valuable contributor and so has @Christos. Emotional decisions are most often careless ones that turn out to do more damage than good.
> 
> I get along great with some HE owners but also have to admit that there are dicks around but same applies to LE owners as well. While there is equilibrium i could care less. A one-sided affair is what get my balls in a knot.


Sorry @KZOR I don't see what I'm getting away with. 
I'll apologise if I need to but I'm being civil.
I just asked if the atties were cloned and being crucified and attacked and classed seems irrelevant in the greater scheme of things.


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## Silver

Lee said:


> It's good that you clamp down on my comments but your buddy christos is cool.
> If you must know, my comment was directed at savapegear
> 
> Nevertheless, this forum has become a place where a normal guy is always looked down upon, if he isn't following the right crowd.
> 
> To all who've contributed to my journey, thank you! LONG LIVE LE
> @Silver Please delete my account



Wow, @Lee 

No need to delete your account because of a bit of a difference on vape gear...

You mention that your comment was directed at SAVapegear. I thought it was Christos. You see how am I supposed to know who it is directed at? So in this situation your comment has grouped all the high end okes in one basket, when SAVapegear was the one that made you upset. Rather let us know when folks upset you and we can try our best to deal with the situation.

"Your buddy Christos" is cool. 
Firstly, how can you say Christos is my buddy? I dont know him. Have never met him or even spoken to him on the phone. We have probably PMed each other twice and exchanged a few comments on the threads. If you are concluding that because he is my buddy he is cool, then you are incorrect, I am just doing my job here with the team and we try very hard to be objective and fair about things to all.

A normal guy being looked down upon if he isnt following the right crowd. 
Am very sad that you feel that wayhttps://www.ecigssa.co.za/whats-in-your-hand-right-now.t19/page-461#post-544507 assure you the Admin and Mod team do not look down on anyone on this forum no matter who they "follow". We try very hard to help all members with their vaping journey no matter what. And i do believe we project that across to the forum's members. Furthermore, the acts of kindess and general spirit witnessed on this forum is very special and I do not believe it has become a place as you have described. 

If there are members on this forum you feel are ruining things for all of us, my ears and PM inbox is open. 

@Lee I would be very sad if you leave. Please consider to rather help us turn something great into something even greater! 

There is so much magic here and a lot more planned for the near future...

Reactions: Winner 6


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## Strontium

Christos said:


> If those words are big I apologise.
> My dad poor as dirt did his best to give me a proper education.
> I'm sorry of my words confuse.


And yet you're the one asking for explanations, guess he did a piss poor job of it then.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## SAVapeGear

I will rather leave.You can have this forum @Lee

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Christos

Strontium said:


> And yet you're the one asking for explanations, guess he did a piss poor job of it then.


Pity isn't it since asking for clarity is seen as inferior but using the English language is frowned upon.


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## Lee

Christos said:


> That's what you get for classing me into a group.
> I'm merely remarking that the LE crew is sensitive tonight. I didn't know that term resonated with you.


You're a real wise guy! Isn't there a facebook group you should be having fun with?


SAVapeGear said:


> Whatever.Got it as gift and gave it to you.
> 
> Don't know what your problem is @Lee
> 
> I almost though you are saying that I sold you clones as Authentic.


I never said you sold a clone as a authentic.. Get off your high horse.
If its a gift..... I have to let you know... a whole bunch of us received "GIFTS" today!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deckie

Christos said:


> I think you need to calm down and relook at your stance.
> 
> I'm merely inquisitive and you seem to be taking everything the wrong way tonight.
> 
> Getting angry is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.
> 
> Why not start a PM with the parties you have an issue with and resolve the conflict like grown men?


My opinion based on reading your posts over the past few months, quietly minding my own business simply because a few months back, a certain HE member, who I must add, deems it not good practice or etiquette to at least download an avatar, which I must say was requested of every new member, decided he could, without recourse or reprimand, insult a fellow vaper openly on the forum, is that you my friend get great pleasure from playing mind games and twisting your meanings to belittle fellow vapers who cannot afford to pay the high prices asked by HE Manufacturers. They spend what they can afford and rejoice in their purchases..... "Live & let live" my friend. Pay your high prices for HE gear, ask & deserve respect, but return the same respect. I have nothing more to say. 5 months wait for the authentic skylines R 4000 ..... 5 days wait for the clones, R410 , absolutely no difference between the 2.

Reactions: Winner 7


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## Christos

Lee said:


> You're a real wise guy! Isn't there a facebook group you should be having fun with?
> 
> I never said you sold a clone as a authentic.. Get off your high horse.
> If its a gift..... I have to let you know... a whole bunch of us received "GIFTS" today!


I think it's time you pm me like a man so we can resolve this like men and leave the public forum alone.
I don't see why you need to belittle me E. G. "Little man" and "wise guy".

I'll wait.


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## Christos

Deckie said:


> My opinion based on reading your posts over the past few months, quietly minding my own business simply because a few months back, a certain HE member, who I must add, deems it not good practice or etiquette to at least download an avatar, which I must say was requested of every new member, decided he could, without recourse or reprimand, insult a fellow vaper openly on the forum, is that you my friend get great pleasure from playing mind games and twisting your meanings to belittle fellow vapers who cannot afford to pay the high prices asked by HE Manufacturers. They spend what they can afford and rejoice in their purchases..... "Live & let live" my friend. Pay your high prices for HE gear, ask & deserve respect, but return the same respect. I have nothing more to say. 5 months wait for the authentic skylines R 4000 ..... 5 days wait for the clones, R410 , no difference.


I need clarity. I seem to get what you are eluding to but please PM me and explain.
Kind request from me.


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## BioHAZarD

I honestly dont even know why this thread exists. Vape whatever you want with whatever you want. Show it off. Dont show it off. Dont care. Move on
Life is too short and this is just crap.

Ok RANT over

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Deckie

Christos said:


> I need clarity. I seem to get what you are eluding to but please PM me and explain.
> Kind request from me.


Simple, I said I have nothing more to say to you.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Christos

Deckie said:


> Simple, I said I have nothing more to say to you.


Ok. Fair enough. 
I don't however see the point in making a confuscated post and then saying nothing more. 

I would appreciate some feedback to perhaps see how I can improve myself on this forum to be accommodating to all.


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## Akash

incredible_hullk said:


> Thats the way aha aha I like it @Akash





Deckie said:


> My opinion based on reading your posts over the past few months, quietly minding my own business simply because a few months back, a certain HE member, who I must add, deems it not good practice or etiquette to at least download an avatar, which I must say was requested of every new member, decided he could, without recourse or reprimand, insult a fellow vaper openly on the forum, is that you my friend get great pleasure from playing mind games and twisting your meanings to belittle fellow vapers who cannot afford to pay the high prices asked by HE Manufacturers. They spend what they can afford and rejoice in their purchases..... "Live & let live" my friend. Pay your high prices for HE gear, ask & deserve respect, but return the same respect. I have nothing more to say. 5 months wait for the authentic skylines R 4000 ..... 5 days wait for the clones, R410 , absolutely no difference between the 2.



We know some ppl....connections...hence that epic turnaround time

Reactions: Funny 3


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## SAVapeGear

Based on these members.Please delete my account @Silver 

Thanks very much all.But I assume most people on this forum hates me in any case.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Disagree 2


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## Vape_r

@SAVapeGear this isn't the junior school playground. If you wanna leave then leave, don't complain about not having friends

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## SAVapeGear

Vape_r said:


> @SAVapeGear this isn't the junior school playground. If you wanna leave then leave, don't complain about not having friends


Says someone that is 21 years old.Hahahahaha

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Deckie

Christos said:


> Ok. Fair enough.
> I don't however see the point in making a confuscated post and then saying nothing more.
> 
> I would appreciate some feedback to perhaps see how I can improve myself on this forum to be accommodating to all.


@Christos , not to pick a fight with you, leave the guys alone, stop getting excited, aggressive & defensive when guys post gear that closely rivals HE gear. If you became more open minded about gear & just accepted that this is one of those industries where cloning will prevail due to the deferent economic classes throughout the world, life on this forum will be more relaxed for you & one wouldn't be faced every 2nd day with these petty squabbles over HE v LE. 
Just "Live & let live". Acceptance.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Clouds4Days

Gentleman lets all calm down.
No need for anyone to leave or fight and argue. 
We are all diffrent and think differently its just who we are, lets all just respect one another.
We are all sensitive because we are all passionate about vaping and no one is better than the next person weather you vape a expensive tank or clone tank.

Everyone has a choice to choose what they want to purchase, wether some dont like it or some do i think its important to respect others decisions and not point fingers and say he supports clones or he is a sucker for spending XX XXXk on a mod.
But we all have to meet in the middle and realise we are all vaping enthusiasts and sometimes its best to keep certain comments to one self.

Im tired of typing now but i think ive said what i have needed to.
Peace

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 5


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## Christos

Deckie said:


> @Christos , not to pick a fight with you, leave the guys alone, stop getting excited, aggressive & defensive when guys post gear that closely rivals HE gear. If you became more open minded about gear & just accepted that this is one of those industries where cloning will prevail due to the deferent economic classes throughout the world, life on this forum will be more relaxed for you & one wouldn't be faced every 2nd day with these petty squabbles over HE v LE.
> Just "Live & let live". Acceptance.


I think you are mistaken.
Taking my asking if it's a clone does not represent my "closed mindedness ".
I'm not for or against HE. I'm all for what works.

I see it's seems to be a classing of such and an attack of such when in fact it's not.

I'm real happy some guys can experience a skyline but I'm also really interested to see how it performs.
I would love to do a BB authentic and skyline authentic review vs the clones if sombody would send me the clones.

If it works then we are all happy .

I don't see why money has to be brought in and why the HE folk need to be bashed or why this is even a contest.

Vaping in itself Is a victory for ex smokers.
Isn't that enough? Do we really need to go down this road of who is wrong and who is right when all we need to do is be brothers.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 3


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## Deckie

Christos said:


> I think you are mistaken.
> Taking my asking if it's a clone does not represent my "closed mindedness ".
> I'm not for or against HE. I'm all for what works.
> 
> I see it's seems to be a classing of such and an attack of such when in fact it's not.
> 
> I'm real happy some guys can experience a skyline but I'm also really interested to see how it performs.
> I would love to do a BB authentic and skyline authentic review vs the clones if sombody would send me the clones.
> 
> If it works then we are all happy .
> 
> I don't see why money has to be brought in and why the HE folk need to be bashed or why this is even a contest.
> 
> Vaping in itself Is a victory for ex smokers.
> Isn't that enough? Do we really need to go down this road of who is wrong and who is right when all we need to do is be brothers.


Christos I have an authentic and a clone Skyline & I can without a doubt say that the clone is 100% on par with the authentic.... only thing is I can kick myself for buying an authentic & wasting my hard earned banana republic money.. I have to head down to Knysna tomorrow in a rush but when I get back I will gladly lend you a SXK BB & the Coppervape 1:1 Skyline. I'll pm you when I get back next week.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 9


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## Christos

Deckie said:


> Christos I have an authentic and a clone Skyline & I can without a doubt say that the clone is 100% on par with the authentic.... only thing is I can kick myself for buying an authentic & wasting my hard earned banana republic money.. I have to head down to Knysna tomorrow in a rush but when I get back I will gladly lend you a SXK BB & the Coppervape 1:1 Skyline. I'll pm you when I get back next week.


Thank you. 
I'm glad we can at least see eye to eye without any name calling or derogatory remarks.

Reactions: Like 5


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## stevie g

@Deckie link to skyline clone please?.


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## DoubleD

The term and use of "HE" and "LE" should be banned from the forum  #ForumDivisionMustFall

Reactions: Agree 7 | Funny 2


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## Christos

DoubleD said:


> The term and use of "HE" and "LE" should be banned from the forum  #ForumDivisionMustFall


Shhhh go to sleep

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kuhlkatz

Guys, this is really getting tiresome.

Some simple facts:
Not everyone is willing to, or can afford to pay top dollar for an item that ultimately does the same thing as a cheaper alternative.
Not everyone is willing to settle for a clone if they are collectors, or if they can afford the real item and is willing to spend the money on it.
No one says you HAVE to purchase an original at price x.
No one is saying you HAVE to purchase a clone at price y.
Some people are against clones based on principle, and it's their right.
Some people do not mind clones due to it's affordability - also their right.
Purchasing either does not automagically grant you membership to either club x or club y. 
Purchasing either does not make you a better person than anyone else, or automatically classes you as a low-life.
Purchasing neither of the two options also does not make you an idiot.
Just because something works for you, does not mean it is going to work for everybody else, and the reverse also holds true.

A simple request :
Please keep your egos in check. If you absolutely have to argue, take it offline and don't do it publicly.
Vaping is not meant to be a measuring contest. It's not a competition unless you are lined up in a cloud blowing or tricking competition.
Abide by the simple forum rules and stop this incessant and unnecessary bickering. Keep things civil.

How the heck are we supposed to represent a unified front against any form of restrictive legislation in the future if we cannot even discuss the merits of gear in a dignified manner ?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Winner 9


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## Deckie

stevie g said:


> @Deckie link to skyline clone please?.


Directly from Coppervape. We did a huge group buy, I personally didn't handle it.


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## Alex

Hey you guys,

In the heat of the moment it takes immense self control to avoid typing an often heated response.

A much better option is to leave the keyboard and have a coffee, or spend some time with your family.

Always let cool heads prevail.

"You can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into." - Albert Einstein

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 8 | Winner 1


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## kev mac

Gizmo said:


> Let me throw in my 2c here.
> 
> I personally don't really care about HE. Never have. I have a few reasons. There are 3 points that frankly bug me I will list them below:
> 
> 
> I very rarely find them as "wow" as experience as what HE people seem to claim.
> The devices are generally over priced with low end chipsets ( focus is on MTL vapers - so called sophisticated vapers )
> HE is less about innovation and more about rarity of device ( small batches / quick sellouts - raises prices and demand )
> Now myself, I am a very simple vaper. I know what I like and dislike. There is no way in hell someone can sway me to buy R9000+- device unless it is nothing short of a profound vaping experience difference to what I am currently using. Which in what I have found, has never been the case. Each HE device I have tried has been better in some aspects / worse in others. Are they innovative, insanely better. NOPE!
> 
> I am semi high wattage vaper who enjoys DL hits of around 65-80w. I love vaping a Smok Big Baby Beast on Battlestar. Yup, that's my go to costing less then R2000 . I am not ashamed of it. Its what I enjoy vaping.
> 
> I also do not need to hold a vape to impress people. I impress in other areas of my life, I cant see the value in a device that will loose more money then you can imagine once its lost its "high demand / must buy phase" I am watch guy. I love watches, I could spend thousands upon thousands on highend watches. But vapes no. I dont get it.
> 
> The core of it is that the HE scene does not give enough value to me. I am not here to make the HE scene take offense, I am just saying that the value for me is limited. I see what people see in them and why they enjoy them see the value ( rarity, the exclusivity etc ). I have other areas of my life where I spend silly amounts of money on things that most people would look at me strangely. But that makes me happy. HE does nothing for me. All I ask of the HE community is to not be Elitist, be a part of the standard commercial device discussions as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are all in this for the ultimate aim to stay away from smoking.


Gizmo makes some good points. I can see how the h.e. thing can come off as "elitist".On the other hand it's my opinion that a lot of the allure is the ascetics.Ther are some beautiful mods that border on art and deserve to be seen,if that's your thing go for it I guess.Anyone looking down on someone's gear is a bore.What gets me is the exclusively and getting on lists , having to join groups just to try and get one.Please don't get me started on people who buy HE only to resell it for huge profits.Most of us buy what we like and can afford,and nothing is wrong with that.

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## Stillwaters

Food for thought...
HE needs commercial and commercial needs HE. The innovations made in HE will be copied in commercial gear, so improving what is commercially available, just as innovations made in F1 become the norm in commercially available cars a few years down the line. 
My belief is that if you can afford authentic, get it if you want. If you can't get authentic, get what you will be happy with. 
At the end of the day we are all winners and need to stick together. If anyone wants to be petty, have a cup of coffee while vaping a tank out...and chill

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## umzungu

Stillwaters said:


> Food for thought...
> HE needs commercial and commercial needs HE. The innovations made in HE will be copied in commercial gear, so improving what is commercially available, just as innovations made in F1 become the norm in commercially available cars a few years down the line.
> My belief is that if you can afford authentic, get it if you want. If you can't get authentic, get what you will be happy with.
> At the end of the day we are all winners and need to stick together. If anyone wants to be petty, have a cup of coffee while vaping a tank out...and chill
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


That depends if the coffee is HE or LE!

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## Stillwaters

Which ever one floats your boat, be it Koffiehuis or Kopi luwak, or anything in between 

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## Stillwaters

And the boat can be a leaky row boat or a luxury 300ft yacht, whatever keeps you afloat.

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## Andre

umzungu said:


> That depends if the coffee is HE or LE!


Where is that "naughty" icon!

We actually need a Naughty (but nice) medal for certain peeps on this forum. No names no...

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## Anneries

Thank you @Stillwaters 



Stillwaters said:


> HE needs commercial and commercial needs HE.



That is the best naming convention I have read and it is actually the best way to distinguish between the product without having people get upset about it.

I can buy a commercial Victorinox knife, or a HE Sebenza ... Fits perfectly.

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## Daniel

Anneries said:


> Thank you @Stillwaters
> 
> 
> 
> That is the best naming convention I have read and it is actually the best way to distinguish between the product without having people get upset about it.
> 
> I can buy a commercial Victorinox knife, or a HE Sebenza ... Fits perfectly.



I can attest to this , being a knife person myself , I almost always have a Vic on me and some other larger knife.

Personally I think the vaping scene has become stagnant with a lot of rehashed devices and tanks and what not , and it's up to the makers to show the way so to speak. 

Going back to the knife analogy , Todd Begg is one of the the biggest if not THE biggest name in the knife community and he makes custom knives that carry a hefty price tag , BUT he also saw the potential in partnering with a Chinese knife manufacturer (Steelcraft/Reate Knives) and produces what we call a 'midtech' option for those that can't afford a HE knife

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## Schnappie

Christos said:


> Thank you.
> I'm glad we can at least see eye to eye without any name calling or derogatory remarks.

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## wikus

Daniel said:


> I can attest to this , being a knife person myself , I almost always have a Vic on me and some other larger knife.
> 
> Personally I think the vaping scene has become stagnant with a lot of rehashed devices and tanks and what not , and it's up to the makers to show the way so to speak.
> 
> Going back to the knife analogy , Todd Begg is one of the the biggest if not THE biggest name in the knife community and he makes custom knives that carry a hefty price tag , BUT he also saw the potential in partnering with a Chinese knife manufacturer (Steelcraft/Reate Knives) and produces what we call a 'midtech' option for those that can't afford a HE knife


Oom dan, hook me up there with those "midtech" knives.


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