# A Question for Consumers and Vendors



## Jebula999 (10/6/16)

Hi All,

So i received some vape mail today and was a bit disappointed, I will not name the Vendor/s as it is not a direct complaint or rant about a specific Vendor but more of a general rant.


So I ordered a few juices and they arrived today, the juices being NCV StrawB and Redrish, Hazeworks Custard Cloud and Vape Chefs Banana Cream.

Look at the picture below:



Notice how clear the Redrish is on the left hand side? This was sent to me by NCV after i wrote a review/comment about a juice that had gone bad/oversteaped/exposed to the elements before i had received it and was impossible to vape.

Now look at this picture:



Notice how dark this bottle of Redrish is on the right hand side? That is the 3rd dark bottle of juice i have received and just like the other darker bottles it has very strange flavor to it and "feels" like syrup when i vape it just as the last one did. But does not have the throat hit as before.


Now its not only Redrish i have experienced this with, I also received a bad bottle of Weiner Vape Co from a vendor which i complained about and got a replacement bottle, just like the NCV, the colour was dark, bad taste and massive through hit. As seen below:




See how dark the one on the right is, that was the bottle from Weiner Vape Co that we ccould not vape at all, the throat hit was intense and felt like my chest was closing. The replacement bottle that i received was amazing and smooth.


So the bottle of NCV i received today is darker than a 6mg bottle of juice, and its a 3mg.

It kicks like a 6mg juice and has no flavor to it.




Has anyone else here had this issue in the past? This is the 3rd time since January that i have received "bad" juices and i feel that a vendor/packager should be able to notice such a vast colour difference when packaging/sending out an order.

As stated before, i will not be making a formal complaint or comment to any of the supplying vendors and will not be naming them, as i feel this applies to all vendors in general.


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## CloudmanJHB (10/6/16)

My first thoughts would have been that the different flavours would be a different colour due to concentrates which are different colours however the lack of taste or juice that is hard to vape sways this theory.

Are both Weiner vapes juices the same flavour?


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## Jebula999 (10/6/16)

CloudmanJHB said:


> My first thoughts would have been that the different flavours would be a different colour due to concentrates which are different colours however the lack of taste or juice that is hard to vape sways this theory.
> 
> Are both Weiner vapes juices the same flavour?


Both Weiner Vape Co juices are same flavours and same nicotine strength.

Both NCV juices are same flavours and same nicotine strength.


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## Stevape;) (10/6/16)

I know it won't solve your current situation but DIY buddy. Fun times and at the end of the day you vape your own.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## PsyCLown (10/6/16)

I might be very wrong here, however as far as I understand most juices which do not contain nicotine (0mg) are actually clear.

When nicotine oxidizes it becomes darker in colour and often the nicotine oxidizes when one is busy steeping it / putting it in warm water baths.
Therefore a bottle of 3mg or greater juice would have a slightly colour to it, the more nicotine in there or the more it oxidizes, the darker the colour would get?

So is the colour of the juice really a tell tale sign that the juice is bad?


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## CloudmanJHB (10/6/16)

Yup then i think your compaints are 100% valid, consistency is needed


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## CloudmanJHB (10/6/16)

PsyCLown said:


> I might be very wrong here, however as far as I understand most juices which do not contain nicotine (0mg) are actually clear.
> 
> When nicotine oxidizes it becomes darker in colour and often the nicotine oxidizes when one is busy steeping it / putting it in warm water baths.
> Therefore a bottle of 3mg or greater juice would have a slightly colour to it, the more nicotine in there or the more it oxidizes, the darker the colour would get?
> ...



Agreed , I wouldn't put the colour down as a sign of bad juice at all, juices change colour over time and people use different concentrates and nicotine bases which could all factor in a juices colour. 

I think the taste test would be your best bet.


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## Mike (10/6/16)

Vendors make their money by keeping stock. If you want something immediately, along with hardware and juices from different mixers, this is the sacrifice you make.

That's why I don't wholesale 125ml bottles. I make sure that they're both fully steeped and 100% fresh, that way 99% of the juices I send out are free of nicotine oxidation.

Vendors don't have the means to control this. If you're a person who is sensitive to nic oxidation, ask vendors how new their stock is before buying, or buy direct from mixers. Most respectable mixers will ensure you get good, fresh stock.

I'd also like to state again, not all people are sensitive to nicotine oxidation. Many people actually like the effect. However some of us can't stand it.

Nicotine oxidation generally adds a bright yellow / amber / red tinge. Most concentrates are on the brown spectrum. So it's easy to tell if it's oxidation or concentrates. 

As a mixer/wholesaler, I can't fault a vendor for this. It's a difficult situation for every party involved.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 2 | Informative 2


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## Jebula999 (10/6/16)

Stevape;) said:


> I know it won't solve your current situation but DIY buddy. Fun times and at the end of the day you vape your own.


I do DIY on the side, but some local juice is too good to not vape 



PsyCLown said:


> I might be very wrong here, however as far as I understand most juices which do not contain nicotine (0mg) are actually clear.
> 
> When nicotine oxidizes it becomes darker in colour and often the nicotine oxidizes when one is busy steeping it / putting it in warm water baths.
> Therefore a bottle of 3mg or greater juice would have a slightly colour to it, the more nicotine in there or the more it oxidizes, the darker the colour would get?
> ...



I know juices get darker over time and that the nicotine level determines the "darkness" of a juice. I have experience this with DIY as well as ordering different strength juices.

what i tried to put accross and why i added images, is so the readers could see the colour difference between bottles of the same flavour and same strength juice. I am not comparing different brands/flavours, i am comparing two different orders of the exact same juice from various suppliers.

This being said i'm not saying the colour is a tell tale sign it is bad, just in my experience every bottle i have received that is much darker than normal has been a "bad" juice without fault.



Mike said:


> Vendors don't have the means to control this. If you're a person who is sensitive to nic oxidation, ask vendors how new their stock is before buying, or buy direct from mixers. Most respectable mixers will ensure you get good, fresh stock.
> 
> I'd also like to state again, not all people are sensitive to nicotine oxidation. Many people actually like the effect. However some of us can't stand it.
> 
> ...



I do feel i might be sensitive to the nicotine oxidization and i am glad you made that point, as i for one cannot inhale it, it's not because i don't like it, it's because it actually closes my chest and i breath like my GF during an asthma attack.

All the juices that i felt were "bad" had the amber colour to them, and they all share a very similar taste when they are this way.

I'm not faulting a vendor for the bad juice currently, i am trying to establish if this is a problem that other people have experience, and if it is a common occurrence, then i would put the vendor at fault for letting "old/bad" stock go to consumers. If it is not a common occurrence then i will put my oxidization sensitivity at fault and put my mind at ease for being disappointed each time i receive one.


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## Vapington (10/6/16)

I would like to address this quite simply. If an eliquid is darker in colour this does NOT mean or dictate it has gone bad at all, that is quite an irresponsible statement to make and could lead many beginners astray when they purchase juice and think the juice is bad because it is darker in colour. 
Have you shaken the bottle well before vaping? It is clear that the bottle has been sitting on the shelf for a while judging by it's colour but should be absolutely fine to vape - I have vaped 9 month old Redrish and it was still fine. Saying it is darker than a 6mg is also not an educated statement - a fresh 6mg will be very light in colour if not still clear and depending on it's flavouring may go darker than something else or stay lighter than something else, there are SO many variables. Remember nicotine oxidises, that little bit of oxygen above the liquid level will do its natural thing over time in that bottle and the nature of our bottles being completely transparent can also have an effect I guess but vendors know not to store in direct sunlight etc. I have plenty juices from loads of juice companies both local and international and some of the 3mgs are very dark and I still enjoy them, infact im vaping a OHW My Man right now that is darker than that redrish and its absolutely fine. 

Also keep this in mind - maybe a steeped redrish is not to your tasting and a fresh one is more up your alley. 

We bottle our liquid as fast as we can to ensure as little exposure to the elements as possible and they are sealed immediately. I can only offer to replace again for you but this time I would like to test that juice to see what you are experiencing.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 7


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## Zeki Hilmi (10/6/16)

Juices that have nicotine in also dependant on strength are dark because they have been pre steeped. We steep our juices minimum of a month before release and look nothing like it did when it was made up fresh. IMO you have got yourself a decent bottle of juice that is ready to vape. Mixers also do struggle at time to have pre steeped juices especially the popular ones as they sell so quick. I can only talk for myself however I do believe that other mixers do their best to pre steep juice as much as possible.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Jebula999 (10/6/16)

Vapington said:


> If an eliquid is darker in colour this does NOT mean or dictate it has gone bad at all, that is quite an irresponsible statement to make and could lead many beginners astray when they purchase juice and think the juice is bad because it is darker in colour.



I have edited my original post as to sound less as a statement and irresponsible and more of a personal experience as that is what it is.



Vapington said:


> Have you shaken the bottle well before vaping? We bottle our liquid as fast as we can to ensure as little exposure to the elements as possible and they are sealed immediately. I can only offer to replace again for you but this time I would like to test that juice to see what you are experiencing.



Yes i have shaken the bottle, this bottle has no throat hit like the last one did which you replaced so i am still able to vape it comfortably. It does however share the same taste that i have experienced.

I am not and will not ask for a another replacement, you have replaced a bottle in the past which i was very happy about and was not expected, and i cannot ask you to do the same again. The same with Weiner Vape CO, they sent me a replacement bottle for their juice, i know how your juices are and i am a happy consumer of the juices, but i will not ask for more replacements. 

This is not a supplier issue, i am quite sure of that, all your juices are made with strict rules and guidelines and every effort is made to ensure the next bottle is the same as the last. Once you put the cap on the bottle there is nothing else you can do, but the amount of things that can go wrong from that stage to the part where a vendor sells the product is quite substantial. 

I'm apologize if this post came out in more of an attack sort of statement blaming everyone for juice i feel is bad, but i have vaped and experience these 3 specific bottles of juice and i know what i tasted and felt, and all 3 bottles were as dark as each other and share the same properties. That's where i get my conclusion from, that is why i wrote this post. I want to find out if any other user here has had the same experience so that i may see if it is just me being silly/sensitive or fussy or weather it is something that happens to others.


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## Zeki Hilmi (10/6/16)

It has no throat hit probably as it's steeped well. Smooth is how juice should be IMO.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lord Vetinari (10/6/16)

My 2c on this: E-liquid has various stages of 'ripeness' and I learned this early on. As months progressed the stock of my favorite juices ALL got darker and changed in subtle ways. Then fresh batches would be a whole new ballgame again, I learned I dont like fresh juice I like it aged a while. Like a wine or a cheese. Faster than wine, slower than cheese, but aging changes e-liquid.

I find this one of the more exciting things. I have bottles of juice I am waaaaaaiting to vape! Because I know what stage I like them at. I am waiting. Some I even shake every day. And no I am not talking about my DIY. 

Kinda like if you enjoy a good Brie cheese and you buy it at 4 weeks from ripe, but prefer it 1 week from ripe, you wait 2 weeks. Because it is worth it.

Anyhow, to me GENERALLY: Tobaccos and RY4 - The older the better. I vaped off some positively syrupy Blackbird with Ross at Vape Cartel and it was PHENOMENAL. 

Cookies, donuts, etc - Also the longer the better IMO. But I cant hold out on them as long as tobaccos. 

Custards... Do not like getting old. No more overtones just this weird yellow taste. Once they go dark brown I dont like them. But too fresh and also, no overtones, it is JUST custard. Good to time it at a dark gold in most cases. 

Fruits.. Depends on the mix. If you like them bold vape early and clear. If you like them subtly blended wait a while. 

ETC. And those are only my preferences.

IN THE END I am being honest with myself too. If a bottle has been steeped further than I like, kinda like a burger being cooked just over my preference, I will consume it. I need the nicotine. And it is going to be pretty good, just not what I prefer.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Thanks 1 | Informative 1


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## Lord Vetinari (10/6/16)

If you REALLY prefer fresh juice, the ONLY way to secure a solid supply is DIY. It is a VERY hard preference to cater to.


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## Petrus (10/6/16)

All my juices I put in a dark place for at least a mont before vaping, and it's great. Lucky no bad experiences, only a quality vape. Even after my daily refilling of a device, back to the dark place. I got some Metador Special Reserve which is a net tobacco almost for a year now. It is DARK BROWN in colour, but the flavour is so damn good, I only vape it at special occasions. Back to our local mixers @Mike you guys are doing a GREAT job. I got some Ashy Bac now for three months in the dark place, and my Reo is begging me to open it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## PsyCLown (10/6/16)

So, does 0mg juice also darken over time or how would you be able to tell (roughly) how long it has been "steeped" for?


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## Mike (10/6/16)

PsyCLown said:


> So, does 0mg juice also darken over time or how would you be able to tell (roughly) how long it has been "steeped" for?



No it doesn't. It does "steep" but it's more about losing the most volatile molecules than the complex reactions that happen between the flavour and nicotine. I've got some 6 month old bottles of 0mg here and they're the same colour as batches mixed this week.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Vapington (10/6/16)

0mg juice can have colour - for instance Milked has a very slight brown colour but that is from the flavouring - the rest of our range is clear in 0mg


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## Yagya (22/9/16)

I might be reviving an old topic here but i need to check something.
I just received my vape mail but i am concerned about a 100ml bottle of eliquid that was not sealed and was not filled to the brim like the other bottles i normally purchased.
the eliquid also seem to be a bit darker that before.
what is your take on buying a bottle of eliquid that is not sealed..should i be concerned??


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## Cespian (22/9/16)

Yagya said:


> I might be reviving an old topic here but i need to check something.
> I just received my vape mail but i am concerned about a 100ml bottle of eliquid that was not sealed and was not filled to the brim like the other bottles i normally purchased.
> the eliquid also seem to be a bit darker that before.
> what is your take on buying a bottle of eliquid that is not sealed..should i be concerned??



If it is from a reseller (not original juice maker) then I would express some serious concern (IMO). Might be worth it to weigh the bottle as well (if you have an empty replica of the bottle, tar it on your scale or simply deduct after measuring), because quite frankly, considering that most local juices are on average R130 per 30ml, if 3mls are not present, its roughly R13 they have conned you on (not much but it adds up eventually) - not even considering the ethics behind it. If this is the case, I would address this to the reseller as well as the original manufacturer.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Yagya (22/9/16)

Its more the case of an unsealed bottle that is my concern. I am yet to vape it later today when i get home and see if there is any difference in flavour. As i know that the flavour will diminish with juice that is standing open.
I have send them mail and waiting the response.


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## Cespian (22/9/16)

Yagya said:


> Its more the case of an unsealed bottle that is my concern. I am yet to vape it later today when i get home and see if there is any difference in flavour. As i know that the flavour will diminish with juice that is standing open.
> I have send them mail and waiting the response.



Have you bought this brand before and was it previously sealed? What kind of bottles are they if I may ask? I have bought some local juices where the makers used the glass with pipette bottles and did not have a tamper seal nor shrink wrap around the cap

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Vape Starter (22/9/16)

Local vape juice producers should agree to some industry standard and code of conduct for future so that all local producers comply with important points, for example manufactures should state date of bottling on label and have the caps shrink wrapped.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Yagya (22/9/16)

its the 100ml Orion juice which i am sure was previously sealed when i purchased last.


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## Yagya (22/9/16)

the vendor replied to my mail, saying that if a bottle is filled to the brim it will hold 115ml and not 100ml. they also stated that this juice maker does not seal their bottles.
i do not have a scale to measure the bottle but will let it go for now.
i will however not buy liquid from vendors in the future that is not sealed.


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## Warlock (22/9/16)

Just to give you a range of colours which shows that even fresh mixes can be dark.

Here are some samples I’m sending to a buddy for blind tasting. The oldest ones are 2 months old (No 3 and No 14) and the freshest one is No 26 that is 15 days old, and already dark. They are mainly fruits and creams

Reactions: Like 1


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## stevie g (22/9/16)

Yagya said:


> its the 100ml Orion juice which i am sure was previously sealed when i purchased last.


I was at a vaperite which sells the Orion brand. The guys behind the counter opened a new bottle off the shelf to smell it. I didn't ask them to they just did it.

I suppose this plays into the expectation that vendors need to have a seal on the bottle so that staff cannot open or tamper with the bottles.

Even replenishing the air (opening it) and putting the bottle back on the shelf for a month will cause greater oxidation and a tiny little bit of flavor loss.

Some makers of eliquid put their juices through ultra sonic cleaners or hot baths during the steeping stage.

I'm fine with a hot bath up to 45 degrees Celsius but anything over will have long term negative effects on flavor.

Ultra sonic cleaners completely stuff a juice up on a molecular level causing rapid breakdown and flavor loss with possible bitterness developing.

The ultra sonic is fine for DIY but not for a juice that might sit 6 months before being sold.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## DanielSLP (30/9/16)

Yagya said:


> its the 100ml Orion juice which i am sure was previously sealed when i purchased last.


I mix in these bottles only and I can confirm that is 100ml. I spoke to some manufacturers as well and they have told me that they make it to guarantee that 100mls of juice. Unfortunately I have seen slight inconsistencies where one manufacturers bottle will take 105mls and another 115mls. But the ones orion uses does take 115mls.


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## Lord Vetinari (30/9/16)

Yagya said:


> the vendor replied to my mail, saying that if a bottle is filled to the brim it will hold 115ml and not 100ml. they also stated that this juice maker does not seal their bottles.
> i do not have a scale to measure the bottle but will let it go for now.
> i will however not buy liquid from vendors in the future that is not sealed.


The new bottles we are all ordering have a seal on the twist lid. Unsealed bottles are going to be a thing of the past soon enough. When you open these you can FEEL as well as hear that satisfying tear of the seal being busted the first time.


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## DanielSLP (1/10/16)

FogFace said:


> The new bottles we are all ordering have a seal on the twist lid. Unsealed bottles are going to be a thing of the past soon enough. When you open these you can FEEL as well as hear that satisfying tear of the seal being busted the first time.


Are these the same plastic bottles with the witch cap lids?


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## Lord Vetinari (1/10/16)

DanielSLP said:


> Are these the same plastic bottles with the witch cap lids?


Clear glass with fine pipette. Has a good sealing ring no need for shrink wrap.


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## DanielSLP (3/10/16)

Lord Vetinari said:


> Clear glass with fine pipette. Has a good sealing ring no need for shrink wrap.


So not plastic? Glass vs plastic is the classic example of form vs function. Glass bottles get so messy and there is always a fear of breaking.


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