# How can we self-regulate before the government steps in



## Neill Powell (12/9/17)

Hi all,

This has been bothering me for some time, and within the circles I have been talking, albeit quietly, we seem to be facing an issue of regulations that we ourselves do not even know we need to comply to.

As a leap, I think we should start a discussion of how this part of the industry is going to regulate itself, specifically in terms of e-juice!

The USA is facing great issues, while not immediately a concern, as we all know it's been shelved for 2020, or 2021, regulation is going to come. The EU has already crucified juice-makers and tank manufacturers, and we're next. This will hit us all hard. SA government has a habit of adopting certain standards, simply because they exist in other places, and that may spell doom for e-juice manufacturers, if they attempt to enforce that kind of strategy as a copy and paste exercise.
i have been musing along the idea of 4 principle thoughts for at least proposing some form of draft control that we could adopt, the basic premise is:

1. Protect the consumer
2. Protect the manufacturer
3. Ensure taxation where necessarily due.
4. Ensure transparency and accountability across these 3 premises to keep the system honest, self accountable and legal.

I am working on a "document" if you will, that from my viewpoint, the idea is a proposal, trying to take all stakeholders into play and seeing both the positive sides and the negative sides of this to enter into public debate.

If we can get our shit together before it becomes an issue... we may stand a chance!

Your thoughts? (apologies for the misspelled tag, dunno how to edit them, yet!).

As always, _*Vape strong, and live long.*_

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MixeR (12/9/17)

Hi Neill

I agree we should get prepared for was will eventually come. 
I have been mixing my own juice for a while now and I have a store interested in stocking my brand.

I would like to get my juice lab certified and I am not sure how to go about doing all of that.

So I am looking for people who know where I can go to get it done and what I would need to do.

Thank you for any info

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB (12/9/17)

Every industry claims it can self-regulate and no govt ever believes them, with good reason. Should VW have been allowed to regulate its own vehicle emissions in the US? These things don't work. Govt is not going to allow the vaping industry to write the vaping regulations, any more than it would allow the gun manufacturers and gun shops to write the country's gun laws. Regulation is a "public good" service, it cannot be undertaken credibly by any party who has a profit incentive.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 2


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## Comrad Juju (12/9/17)

Neill Powell said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This has been bothering me for some time, and within the circles I have been talking, albeit quietly, we seem to be facing an issue of regulations that we ourselves do not even know we need to comply to.
> 
> ...



Please don't send it to anyone in government.

It might be enough to cause them to focus on the industry. I'm happy paying VAT on my imports. not in the mood to be taxed exstra on it or potential bans like other countries

Sorry just saying. Understand your main focus is people in the industry. Just don't want to get screwed by government because of you guys starting to take precautions.

It is awesome news that you guys are ready to plan ahead though.


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Reactions: Like 1


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## Mida Khan (12/9/17)

My question is what should the legal age limit be for vaping?

We don't want youngsters casually or socially vaping nicotine but we especially don't want them on the smokes!


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## Comrad Juju (12/9/17)

Mida Khan said:


> My question is what should the legal age limit be for vaping?
> 
> We don't want youngsters casually or socially vaping nicotine but we especially don't want them on the smokes!



Isn't it already 18? I know vendors in Cape Town sells to 18+ as far as I have seen.

Guys like Juicy Joes actually doesn't even allow 18 year olds with id's to proving they are 18 in school clothes to purchase from them.

Needs to be in causal wear. 

In my opinion that's pretty good practice 


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Reactions: Like 1


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## Mida Khan (12/9/17)

Comrad Juju said:


> Isn't it already 18? I know vendors in Cape Town sells to 18+ as far as I have seen.
> 
> Guys like Juicy Joes actually doesn't even allow 18 year olds with id's to proving they are 18 in school clothes to purchase from them.
> 
> ...



Yes it's supposed to be 18 but I have seen a youngster as young as 14 in school uniform vaping. When questioned he replied that his older cousin gave him the device and he gets liquid from him too.


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## RichJB (12/9/17)

Having laws doesn't stop people from breaking them. I'm pretty sure 18 will remain the legal age limit for smoking and will be the age limit for vaping too.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Mida Khan (12/9/17)

No cartoon characters/animations to be used on packaging of liquids so it doesn't appeal to minors

Reactions: Like 2


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## Comrad Juju (12/9/17)

Mida Khan said:


> Yes it's supposed to be 18 but I have seen a youngster as young as 14 in school uniform vaping. When questioned he replied that his older cousin gave him the device and he gets liquid from him too.



I don't really think there is a way to stop something like that.

Looking back I somehow started smoking back when I was 14. 

The only way to reduce the risk of youngsters smoking will be to keep it less attractive for kids. I actually questioned a vender on this forum selling minion vape gear. 


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Reactions: Like 1


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## RenaldoRheeder (13/9/17)

Comrad Juju said:


> I don't really think there is a way to stop something like that.
> 
> Looking back I somehow started smoking back when I was 14.
> 
> ...



Then again, was smoking attractive at age 14 (I can relate - I was a bit younger when I started smoking). Think back to why you started smoking. For me it was cool and I was one of the boys - a big thing. Still the most stupid thing I ever did - it was not even enjoyable to smoke at the time. Vaping has a similar image - it is so cool, but at least it is not nearly as harmful as smoking. Age restriction is not nearly as effective as one would want it to be.




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Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## Andre (13/9/17)

MixeR said:


> Hi Neill
> 
> I agree we should get prepared for was will eventually come.
> I have been mixing my own juice for a while now and I have a store interested in stocking my brand.
> ...


Most welcome to the forum. Feel free to introduce yourself at the end of this thread.
For juice certification check out this forum.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MixeR (13/9/17)

Andre said:


> Most welcome to the forum. Feel free to introduce yourself at the end of this thread.
> For juice certification check out this forum.


Thanks Andre

Really appreciate it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mauritz (13/9/17)

Hi @Neill Powell ,

Please have a look at our subforum, we have discussed this at great length over the last couple of weeks. *For us* the road to self regulation is showing our commitment to quality and safety. If we can show (by audit) that we understand our processes so as to control the product quality and safety we will show that we take responsibility for our products and the health and safety of the consumers.

On a strategic level this means ISO 14644-1 and GMP certification.
On a quality level this means batch testing ( GSMS) e-liquids for assurance of the quality output
and finally on an educational level as to what is harmful, and how to we implement a harm reduction strategy.

Please let me know if you have questions on our views.

Regards,

Reactions: Like 3


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## Waine (13/9/17)

LOl. Human nature dictates that if you tell someone they cannot use a substance unless they are 18, or 21, they will want to know why the substance is restricted and they WILL try it. 

But in a legal sense, I am all for proper and realistic regulations on vaping, to keep the industry clean and honest. For example, we don't want a "Kitchen Chemist" making our e-juice and selling it to vendors with a nice label on. Especially if no one has inspected the premises where the juice is made.


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Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Neill Powell (15/9/17)

Thanks for the Epic feedback!! Considerably impressed with The Vape Merchant on their impressive (10/10 from my side), accreditation. But, as MixeR pointed out... the hows and the what's are still murky waters..

A few notes i have added on my "document" is, based on an observation I made from reading medicine bottles as well as a simple Simba chips packet:


Expiry
Lot/batch number (so.damn.important)
Some form of special number indicating something else.
I was actually quite happy about the response here and proceeded to talk about it to a few fellow-vapers (sadly, in the smoking section), and the general consensus was , after asking them qustions, was, almost outright prompted with the following:


Who _*actually makes the juice?*_
Where, _*is this stuff made, more importantly, how?*_
Are any _*nasties in it?*_
Who _*checks this, if say the nicotine was a bad batch?*_
These are real-people questions. How *does* a brand say, Capital Vapes, or Wicked Wicks have any real, solid, steadfast method of being able to prove their juice is A-OK, at least under current standards, and who enforces these standards? and not just for one vendor. Where is the standard for all... Or are we all selling mampoer... Because... well, to the non-smoker, it REALLY DOES look like moonshine, because, dear suppliers... WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?

And this is my argument.

TVM has a great thread about their lab, but who, what, how many? Who is certified and guaranteed BASED, at least in the current information (and yes their tests do cover a considerable set of relevant ppm verifications).

I don't have the intention or even remotely (god forbid), want to bankrupt the current juice-makers. But we all know, right now, it is a good and quite lucrative business model... Why not step up the value for the customer? Get in line to get your product verified as safe (we hope they are!!) and proudly display a sticker, (mmm... hologram would be nice) on your lable to actually prove that YOUR JUICE is totally cool!

We can all love Granny's new stew, but when she says she "adds a few 'erbs form the cool Rastafarian from next door", we wonder about if we really want that stew any more...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Neill Powell (16/9/17)

Comrad Juju said:


> Please don't send it to anyone in government.
> 
> It might be enough to cause them to focus on the industry. I'm happy paying VAT on my imports. not in the mood to be taxed exstra on it or potential bans like other countries
> 
> ...



No, i totally understand. But the DAY it happens.... The EU is boned. Properly boned. My v2 Kylin (no leaks, yay!) MUST be supplied with the baby tank (2ml), and has the 6ML option. Menthol is (and should be), banned in all e-juice, for good reasons.. Because they're taking safety seriously. My point is WHEN SA government wakes up... and WILL WRITE ass-backward legislation.. At least we should have something to fight back with, or at least try to...


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## Neill Powell (16/9/17)

Waine said:


> LOl. Human nature dictates that if you tell someone they cannot use a substance unless they are 18, or 21, they will want to know why the substance is restricted and they WILL try it.
> 
> But in a legal sense, I am all for proper and realistic regulations on vaping, to keep the industry clean and honest. For example, we don't want a "Kitchen Chemist" making our e-juice and selling it to vendors with a nice label on. Especially if no one has inspected the premises where the juice is made.
> 
> ...



hehehe, sure, but getting a vape-set-up costs a whole lot more than a packet of smokies... _et tu Brutus_?

Completely agree.


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## RichJB (16/9/17)

Neill Powell said:


> Who is certified



You can only be certified against a standard. There is no international e-juice standard yet, ISO is still developing theirs. Although I believe that the association of American e-juice makers has developed their own juice standard. However, our govt is likely to adopt the ISO standard, as and when it is published. Failing that, we may adopt the EU standard if there is one. We don't adopt a great number of US standards as our trade with them is quite limited.

It would be pointless for us to develop our own national juice standard as that work is being done already at international and regional level. So we'd be spending time and money on reinventing the wheel. No other country is going to adopt our standard if an international standard exists. Plus, if our standard is substantially different from the international standard, it could serve as a barrier to trade between us and our trading partners. 

We are behind the curve on vaping regulations and I think govt has done that deliberately. They are letting the EU and US do all the heavy lifting with regard to developing regulations. Then we will see how it works out for them before deciding how we want to proceed.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## David Naude (16/9/17)

We are actually in the process of this https://www.vapeinstitute.co.za/

Reactions: Like 1


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## Andre (16/9/17)

Neill Powell said:


> No, i totally understand. But the DAY it happens.... The EU is boned. Properly boned. My v2 Kylin (no leaks, yay!) MUST be supplied with the baby tank (2ml), and has the 6ML option. Menthol is (and should be), banned in all e-juice, for good reasons.. Because they're taking safety seriously. My point is WHEN SA government wakes up... and WILL WRITE ass-backward legislation.. At least we should have something to fight back with, or at least try to...


Why should menthol be banned in all e-juice? Does that include the Kooladas, Polar Blasts, etcetera?


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## RichJB (16/9/17)

My understanding of the menthol issue is that it's not a safety issue but rather based on research which indicates that menthol is an attractive flavour to non-smokers and also that menthol cigarette smokers find it harder to quit nicotine. However, in his preliminary flavouring research, Maciej Goniewicz found that menthol-flavoured juice kills more cells than most other flavours. So it may well emerge that there is something in menthol which is hazardous. Afaik it's only Germany which is moving to ban menthol in juice although most EU member states have banned menthol cigarettes from 2020. SanFran has also banned menthol cigarettes.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Puff the Magic Dragon (16/9/17)

In my opinion it is better to let sleeping dogs lie. Why should the SA government spend scarce resources on determining vaping regulations, when this is in any event being done by the EU, US and others.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver (16/9/17)

RichJB said:


> My understanding of the menthol issue is that it's not a safety issue but rather based on research which indicates that menthol is an attractive flavour to non-smokers and also that menthol cigarette smokers find it harder to quit nicotine. However, in his preliminary flavouring research, Maciej Goniewicz found that menthol-flavoured juice kills more cells than most other flavours. So it may well emerge that there is something in menthol which is hazardous. Afaik it's only Germany which is moving to ban menthol in juice although most EU member states have banned menthol cigarettes from 2020. SanFran has also banned menthol cigarettes.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Waine (18/9/17)

Oh no! I have only recently started to enjoy Menthol flavored e-liquid. I don't want to hear anything more on this, just incase I find some "hazardous" reading material about Menthol.

It's kind of the "Ostrich head in the hole syndrome".


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Reactions: Can relate 1


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## Hooked (27/9/17)

RichJB said:


> My understanding of the menthol issue is that it's not a safety issue but rather based on research which indicates that menthol is an attractive flavour to non-smokers and also that menthol cigarette smokers find it harder to quit nicotine. However, in his preliminary flavouring research, Maciej Goniewicz found that menthol-flavoured juice kills more cells than most other flavours. So it may well emerge that there is something in menthol which is hazardous. Afaik it's only Germany which is moving to ban menthol in juice although most EU member states have banned menthol cigarettes from 2020. SanFran has also banned menthol cigarettes.



Which cells do "most other flavours" kill?


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## Feliks Karp (27/9/17)

Hooked said:


> Which cells do "most other flavours" kill?



They were lung cells cultured and developed in a lab, the tests show that certain flavours create more aggressive structures that attack the cells. In regards to the OP, if vaping wants to survive the little hope we have is a committee of sorts being formed by the more active and prominent members who then engage with government. Although that will most likely be a fool's errand, it's the only semi-viable way vapers can try help vaping survive.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## RichJB (27/9/17)

Goniewicz's testing showed that flavoured vapour killed fewer cells than cigarette smoke. Nevertheless, there were wide variances in the number of cells killed by the various vaping flavours. He initially cited menthol and cherry as the worst and has since added strawberry to the list. However, that was just picked up in interview conversation about his testing, I haven't seen exhaustive lists of flavours and how many cells they killed.

It also doesn't help us greatly because there are different flavours for each profile. There is no 'strawberry' flavour. Was he talking about TFA Ripe, Inw Shisha, FA Red Touch, Flv Alpine, Cap Sweet, some other brand? It is possible that brand A's strawberry is killing a lot of cells, brand B's strawberry far fewer because it uses different chemicals. So there is a lot of work that still needs to be done. We can take heart from the result that no flavour killed as many cells as cigarette smoke. But there is still a need to find out as much we can and to eliminate unacceptable risks where possible. A lot of harm reduction is better than a little harm reduction. Even if the flavours aren't banned or reformulated, we need to know which are the worst ones in order to make informed choices, just as we need to know which flavours contain diacetyl.

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## Neill Powell (27/9/17)

RichJB said:


> My understanding of the menthol issue is that it's not a safety issue but rather based on research which indicates that menthol is an attractive flavour to non-smokers and also that menthol cigarette smokers find it harder to quit nicotine. However, in his preliminary flavouring research, Maciej Goniewicz found that menthol-flavoured juice kills more cells than most other flavours. So it may well emerge that there is something in menthol which is hazardous. Afaik it's only Germany which is moving to ban menthol in juice although most EU member states have banned menthol cigarettes from 2020. SanFran has also banned menthol cigarettes.


Some links would be great, we're all about information here!!! The more we have this discussion in the open, the sharper the landscape will come into focus.


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## Neill Powell (27/9/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> They were lung cells cultured and developed in a lab, the tests show that certain flavours create more aggressive structures that attack the cells. In regards to the OP, if vaping wants to survive the little hope we have is a committee of sorts being formed by the more active and prominent members who then engage with government. Although that will most likely be a fool's errand, it's the only semi-viable way vapers can try help vaping survive.


Agreed. But we can at the very least, attempt to have a say, hell, if the voice is loud enough, and much like the pending marijuana debates taking place, you need but ONE province to pilot it.. Soon enough, others start thinking about it...


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## Neill Powell (27/9/17)

*Loving* the solid commentary here!
It goes to show how deeply invested we are in this. People are making grounded and concise comments to this thread. This is what we need. I have actually committed some of the stronger observations (thanks to RichJB, those observations have been noted in my paperwork!)


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## RichJB (27/9/17)

Here is an article that talks about Goniewicz's research.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Neill Powell (27/9/17)

Waine said:


> Oh no! I have only recently started to enjoy Menthol flavored e-liquid. I don't want to hear anything more on this, just incase I find some "hazardous" reading material about Menthol.
> 
> It's kind of the "Ostrich head in the hole syndrome".
> 
> ...


This is why we need this discussion. The more you know... Even if it is not to your liking, is an important part of being aware and having critical, thorough consideration of the available facts. This is EXACTLY why I want this discussion, so that people like yourself, (however sad the news may be, sorry ), get the PROPER information from a supportive, informed community.


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## Neill Powell (27/9/17)

Thanks for that. The Nerd in me, however did notice a few critical pieces of info missing from an otherwise good stub. My arguments are against the article, not RichJB:

"Increased toxicity" is a terribly relative term. Increased toxicity *when compared to...? *(TELL ME!!! i'd really like to know!)
"Increased" How much? Hundred-fold? Thousand fold? Or two-fold-increase-in-parts-per-billion v.s. Laboratory-grade-air? Nobody mentions the figures or the report, or the data behind the analysis.
I recently lambasted an author over something that made it onto the local news about organizations comparing cancer increasing "two-fold" or more, and being associated to the use of birth-control. Their use of mathematics was, for a lack of a better word, bullshit maths. 
I digress (apologies, it makes me f****** furious!! )


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## RichJB (27/9/17)

The problem is that people want hard limits and medical science is loath to give them. Smokers want to know 'if smoking 8 cigarettes a day gives me cancer, is smoking 7 cigarettes a day safe?' Science can't answer that. You can smoke 100 cigarettes a day and still not have had cancer at the age of 90, you can never smoke and get cancer in your teens. It also doesn't help that Maciej says that running devices at higher temps and using menthol instead of custard flavour will increase the toxicity from 4 to 9 because science can't assure you that 7 is safe, that 9 is lethal and that 4 is harmless. All they can tell you is that taking in 4 units is less hazardous than taking in 9 units.

My brother suffered pulmonary embolism at the age of 50. He gave up smoking at the age of 40. Did smoking set the stage for pulmonary embolism to manifest? Would he have got pulmonary embolism if he'd never smoked? Would he have got it worse if he'd given up smoking at 45, and less if he'd given up smoking at 35? Science can't say. Perhaps smoking had everything to do with it, perhaps it had nothing to do with it and he'd still have got it even if he'd never smoked.

This is true of all medical conclusions. How many km a week must you jog to avoid the onset of heart disease? How many Big Macs can you eat and still be safe? What can your BMI be? Science can't say. What they can say is that eating ten Big Macs a month, never exercising and being 20kg overweight is more likely to result in heart disease than eating five Big Macs, exercising every second day and being only 5kg overweight. For an average individual. But you may not be average. I know pensioners who are grossly overweight and have never had heart problems. One of my schoolmates was a non-smoker, first team rowing, slim fitness fanatic who was enlisted into the Parabats. He got a weekend pass after basic training, went home, got into a hot bath to freshen up before supper - and was found dead of a heart attack an hour later by his parents.

I'm not freaked out about health, nor do I expect science to give me definitive answers. I have never avoided doing anything but I do take steps to do things in moderation. I only smoked fifteen a day, I only drink one glass of red wine a day, I don't eat fried foods all the time but I don't avoid them either. Ditto coffee. And sugar. And fats. I drink Coke, I just don't polish off 5L a day of it. I eat doughnuts or chips or chocolates, I just don't binge on them. I'm aware that all these things push me closer towards getting cancer or heart disease. But I'm not going to subsist on raw vegetables and deny myself life's pleasures for fear of dying. It's going to happen at some point whether I like it or not.

I am happy to vape. I am satisfied that it's doing me an awful lot less harm than smoking did. However, I will still keep it under control and do it in moderation - moderate juice consumption, moderate wattages. If it bothers me, I must rather give it up. It bothers me that I am now dependent on nicotine again. When I started vaping, I could do without it for hours on end. Now I crave within two hours of not getting it. So I must cut down my dependence on it. I don't think it's killing me but when it makes me think about it and arrange my schedule around getting it regularly, it becomes my master and I become its slave. I don't like being a slave. I may be coaxed into making an exception for Halle Berry in her Catwoman outfit. But not for nic. So imma beat that sucker down and slap it upside the head, know'm'sayin? 

There are no free lunches and it's not up to medical science to make me feel good about my choices. I don't need to know that vaping 6ml a day will be safe but 10ml a day gives me an 8% chance of cancer. All I need is for medical science to tell me that Cap Sweet is the most hazardous strawberry, Inw Shisha is the safest, Ripe is in the middle. Then I can make my own choices. And they are doing it. Flavorah now gives out a very informative sheet telling you exactly how much DAAP is in each flavour. So I scan through the list, find the ones that are absolutely sky-high in diacetyl and acetoin - and buy those first. Because diacetyl nom.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## DaveH (27/9/17)

@Neill Powell

The way forward about having some sort of representation is the formation of a "Vaping Association" This has to be a bona fide association with all the legal bells, whistles and rules. An association can take some setting up.

Dave


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## RichJB (27/9/17)

There certainly is room for an association of vapers. Govt stakeholder negotiation typically involves industry and civil society. The vaping industry already has a body or bodies set up to represent it. No doubt the anti-smoking lobby will attend, as will the tobacco companies. So a vapers' association could represent the views of ordinary vapers. The first thing govt wants to know is "who is your constituency?", i.e. how many people do you represent. If you represent the five vapers in Pofadder, your voice carries less weight than a national association representing 100k vapers.

It's probably also a good idea to involve a lawyer or two, ideally with background in the regulatory environment. A key to any negotiation is to decide up front which battles you can win and which you can't. The industry will likely put together a realistic, well-researched and well-presented position. They have more invested in this than vapers do. It's our hobby but their livelihood. So I would think the first requirement of any civil society vaping body is "do no harm", iow do not distract from and hinder the industry's position. For eg, if the industry has already agreed to concede a DAAP prohibition, civil society insisting it should be allowed "because there is less diacetyl in vapour than in smoke" puts a spanner in the works. I think the primary goal of a vaping civil association would be to align with, support and be secondary to the industry's position. 

It is widely accepted that industry talks with more technical insight and authority than civil society does. What industry cannot offer is personal testimony of how vaping has changed their lives for the better. That imo is the 'expertise' that a civil association offers in negotiations. It is pointless for the civil association to argue things like juice bottle or tank size limits or nic mg limits, the industry can argue those points with far greater authority and insight. But the industry can't say "95% of our customers think this has saved their lives". We need to say that.

So instead of the vaping association trying to argue about formaldehyde in vapour and other things which we are technically unqualified to argue, we should instead be arguing with personal testimony. "I was constantly coughing and wheezing as a smoker. In the year since I started vaping, my lung function and circulation have improved, I sleep better, I taste my food better, I have much more energy, I can feel the improvement. And here is my doctor's report to prove it." Then we complement and bolster industry's argument instead of potentially working against it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## DaveH (27/9/17)

@RichJB 
100%
Dave

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hooked (28/9/17)

RichJB said:


> There certainly is room for an association of vapers. Govt stakeholder negotiation typically involves industry and civil society. The vaping industry already has a body or bodies set up to represent it. No doubt the anti-smoking lobby will attend, as will the tobacco companies. So a vapers' association could represent the views of ordinary vapers. The first thing govt wants to know is "who is your constituency?", i.e. how many people do you represent. If you represent the five vapers in Pofadder, your voice carries less weight than a national association representing 100k vapers.
> 
> It's probably also a good idea to involve a lawyer or two, ideally with background in the regulatory environment. A key to any negotiation is to decide up front which battles you can win and which you can't. The industry will likely put together a realistic, well-researched and well-presented position. They have more invested in this than vapers do. It's our hobby but their livelihood. So I would think the first requirement of any civil society vaping body is "do no harm", iow do not distract from and hinder the industry's position. For eg, if the industry has already agreed to concede a DAAP prohibition, civil society insisting it should be allowed "because there is less diacetyl in vapour than in smoke" puts a spanner in the works. I think the primary goal of a vaping civil association would be to align with, support and be secondary to the industry's position.
> 
> ...


@RichB an excellent post and excellent thinking. You are clearly a logical, objective person and you should be on the committee who negotiates with government.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Thanks 1


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## Comrad Juju (11/10/17)

So hopefully this don’t get deleted. 

But after the last few days I have actually left the group after this was posted. 







It might actually be time for regulation in SA as this is a joke! 

As it’s not only copyright infringement but also child appealing. The vendor actually went as far as to stand behind it as the company had 6 months to change the packaging.

My problem isn’t even with the manufacturer as this is a imported juice, but with a vendor importing juice like this. How hard is it to use common sense. SA has a perfect unregulated market where we only pay standard vat and no extra charges on vaping gear. it’s vendors like this that will be the downfall of it!!


Not sure how vendors like this is allowed to carry the ecigssa logo on their site @Silver


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Reactions: Agree 4 | Informative 1


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## Silver (12/10/17)

Comrad Juju said:


> So hopefully this don’t get deleted.
> 
> But after the last few days I have actually left the group after this was posted.
> 
> ...



Thanks @Comrad Juju for bringing this to our attention

I personally do not like it when juice makers piggyback off other established logos. Have never bought a juice like that and have no intentions of doing so in future.

I also do not like it when vendors promote this kind of thing.

Will discuss this with our team.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Comrad Juju (12/10/17)

Hi @Silver


I am specifically posting this as country’s like the US is already doing flavour bans in certain states and an article I have seen indicates that SA might follow the same trend as the US.


My main concern is that irresponsible vendors like this will be the cause of set flavour bans being imposed. Not only taking away some awesome imported vape juice but SA juice as well and causing people to lose jobs as we have a lot of really good mixers in SA.


The vaping community is really an awesome bunce of personalities I have met to date but again it’s my opinion it takes 1 vendor like this to ruin the industry.


I’m not a vendor or juice maker. I’m just a vapor who enjoys this unregulated / hobby space we call vaping.

Thanks for everything you guys are doing for the community

Reactions: Agree 1


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