# Concentrates loosing flavor



## SmokeyJoe (25/10/16)

Morning ladies and gents

Quick question, anyone noticed a substantial loss in flavor from concentrates over a few weeks when still in the concentrate form.
I purchased my usual batch a month ago, TFA mostly. 1st batch of mixing came out full of flavor on my recipes as normal
Second batch not so match
Third batch hardly any flavor, using same percentages. Concentrates are being stored in my blackbox away from light and heat like i always do

Anyone else experienced this? Im not ruling out that i could be experiencing vapors fatigue, or that i have mental health issues


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## Glytch (25/10/16)

I always keep my concentrates in a dark cool place. Never had any problem with loss of flavour. But then again a single bottle of flavouring usually doesn't last more than 3 months. I am pretty sure they must have a "sell by date".


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## SmokeyJoe (25/10/16)

PsiSan said:


> Did you maybe change your steeping method?


Thats what im thinking. I did a hot bath which i usually dont do, but i tried to rush it as im out of juice and i dont like shake and vape


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## SmokeyJoe (25/10/16)

PsiSan said:


> Most probably, if you heat the juice up and shake it. Then proceed to open it with air bubbles still visible you are going to loose a lot of flavour.


Thanks, ill make a new batch tonight as i normally do without the bath and just let it steep the old fashioned way


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## therazia (25/10/16)

My word! Thought I might have gotten vapour tongue. Yay! Exactly the same happened to me with the hot bath. This makes so much sense now. 
Thanks everyone!

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB (25/10/16)

There is no substitute for time. I don't use any tricks to speed up steeping, I don't need to as I make far more juice than I consume. I test a few ml during steeping but usually only use the juice at least a month after mixing. There are apparently some juices that need to be consumed quickly or the flavour fades/changes. But all of those I've mixed have improved hugely over the month-long steep. If you are shaking & vaping often, I'd recommend just mixing more than you need and getting ahead of the curve. The benefits of time are well worth it.

Reactions: Agree 9


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## SmokeyJoe (25/10/16)

RichJB said:


> There is no substitute for time. I don't use any tricks to speed up steeping, I don't need to as I make far more juice than I consume. I test a few ml during steeping but usually only use the juice at least a month after mixing. There are apparently some juices that need to be consumed quickly or the flavour fades/changes. But all of those I've mixed have improved hugely over the month-long steep. If you are shaking & vaping often, I'd recommend just mixing more than you need and getting ahead of the curve. The benefits of time are well worth it.


I have to agree with you. I only tried bathing this once and never again, it just doesnt work for me.


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## stevie g (25/10/16)

Vapors tongue.

Always shake concentrate before use.
Heat does not in the short term affect anything except improve steep time
But you need to keep the cap on tight and wait for it to cool to room temp before opening.

Give it a shake once cooled to capture any volatiles in the head space before opening.

After this process there shouldn't be a need to shake it again during the steep process.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## SmokeyJoe (25/10/16)

Th


Sprint said:


> Vapors tongue.
> 
> Always shake concentrate before use.
> Heat does not in the short term affect anything except improve steep time
> ...


Thanks man


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## Lord Vetinari (25/10/16)

PsiSan said:


> Most probably, if you heat the juice up and shake it. Then proceed to open it with air bubbles still visible you are going to loose a lot of flavour.


Citations to back up this statement please.


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## Lord Vetinari (25/10/16)

RichJB said:


> There is no substitute for time. I don't use any tricks to speed up steeping, I don't need to as I make far more juice than I consume. I test a few ml during steeping but usually only use the juice at least a month after mixing. There are apparently some juices that need to be consumed quickly or the flavour fades/changes. But all of those I've mixed have improved hugely over the month-long steep. If you are shaking & vaping often, I'd recommend just mixing more than you need and getting ahead of the curve. The benefits of time are well worth it.


Seconded. Get ahead of the curve and all ends well.


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## Lord Vetinari (25/10/16)

PsiSan said:


> Hi there @Mustrum Ridcully
> http://www.ecigarettedirect.co.uk/ashtray-blog/2016/03/steeping-e-liquid.html Where they actually mention how damaged bottles and caps leaks flavours.
> 
> and here is a basic video of how vapes work
> ...



Errrr.... NO. You might want to revise the principle of diffusion:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion

A quick search on the effects of heat upon diffusion yielded:

2. Temperature: As the temperature increases, the amount of energy available for *diffusion* is increased. This means that a given particle will move faster (there is more energy >pushing= it) at a higher temperature. Thus the rate of *diffusion* will be faster as the temperature increases.

No molecules are being pushed to the top by heat. Physics says no. Expansion and contraction of the liquid in which particles are diffused is not going to cause a seperation. Low temps might cause this in which case you are more likely to just see it go cloudy. Science disputes your theory Sir.

The reason to store in a cool dark place and unopened is to avoid oxidisation of nicotine.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Andre (25/10/16)

Mustrum Ridcully said:


> Errrr.... NO. You might want to revise the principle of diffusion:
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion
> 
> ...


Sure, diffusion can happen if there are areas of high concentration and areas of low concentration, but the main effect of heat on a liquid (as I understand it) is that the molecules vibrates faster and takes up more space. Eventually it will boil, but even before that evaporation takes place (how soon depends on the volatility of the substances therein), which will move those volatile molecules to the top. And they will escape if the container is not properly sealed or is opened before properly cooled down. Flavours are known to be of the more volatile substances.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Lord Vetinari (26/10/16)

Andre said:


> Sure, diffusion can happen if there are areas of high concentration and areas of low concentration, but the main effect of heat on a liquid (as I understand it) is that the molecules vibrates faster and takes up more space. Eventually it will boil, but even before that evaporation takes place (how soon depends on the volatility of the substances therein), which will move those volatile molecules to the top. And they will escape if the container is not properly sealed or is opened before properly cooled down. Flavours are known to be of the more volatile substances.


Oh yes indeed but nobody is BOILING E LIQUID BY SHAKING it here at all so I gues it is a moot point. Steeping is the process of evening out concentrations no? We are working with solutions. No gases involved that can go escaping Sir. I can ask my chemical engineer buddy to join in or I can just keep relaying info 2nd hand.


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## Lord Vetinari (26/10/16)

These concentrates start off as powders. You can buy the powder straight from FW or so. Lets us consider matters once more bearing this in mind. You dont boil salt out of water. Just not done.


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## Andre (26/10/16)

Mustrum Ridcully said:


> Oh yes indeed but nobody is BOILING E LIQUID BY SHAKING it here at all so I gues it is a moot point. Steeping is the process of evening out concentrations no? We are working with solutions. No gases involved that can go escaping Sir. I can ask my chemical engineer buddy to join in or I can just keep relaying info 2nd hand.


Maybe you missed the point the we are talking of juice coming out of a hot bath?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Caveman (26/10/16)

Mustrum Ridcully said:


> Oh yes indeed but nobody is BOILING E LIQUID BY SHAKING it here at all so I gues it is a moot point. Steeping is the process of evening out concentrations no? We are working with solutions. No gases involved that can go escaping Sir. I can ask my chemical engineer buddy to join in or I can just keep relaying info 2nd hand.



You seem way too angry for this early in the morning. I tell you what, mix up 2 nice DIY batches. Heat the one and shake it and leave the cap open. Then on the second one, just shake it without heat and leave it. I am no chemist, but my taste buds to not lie. I can't explain to you what is happening, or why, but I sure do know that they do not taste the same. Heat kills flavor in my experience.

EDIT: Just a note, keep in mind that the amount of heat applied plays a big role as well.

Reactions: Like 2


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## StompieZA (26/10/16)

Everyone probably has their own preferred method they believe in and im sure nothing beats time and leaving it for a good 2 or 3 weeks. 

On sunday i made two 50ml juices. One is a Strawberry New york cheese cake and the other is a Tropical fruit rain with around 5 different fruits and both are my own creations, not clones. 

I shaked them properly and tried vaping them straight after and the cheese cake didnt taste like much and the tropical fruit was okay but tasted more chemical.

The tropical juice smelt good but the cheese cake didnt smell like much. I left both in a dark cool place and shaked them every morning and night and over two days the juices already started tasting better. 

Last night i decided (after reading this thread) to give all my juices i made sunday a hot bath until the water was at room temps and then kept them closed and shaked them again. 

Last night i vaped the cheese cake and there is a night and day difference after the heat bath. I have not vaped the tropical yet but it smells 10 times better already. 

So yeah to me the heat bath seems to work great, but yeah time will always probably be better.


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## StompieZA (26/10/16)

Can someone please explain to me one thing...(perhaps its due to steeping) also not sure if this is off topic, if it is then please move or delete.

Ive been making my own juices now for about 3 months and getting the hang of it. 

When i make juice i can taste the flavor but bought juice flavor is so much more intense where as my flavor is there but is more dull or not as intense. 

Is this due to concentrate percentages or is this something that steeping over time will bring into the juice? I mainly use TFA and CAP concentrates 

I have tried using a higher parentage and find that the juice taste better with lower or around the 2 - 5 % mark. 

Yet again, hope this isnt off topic seeing that im talking about steeping and concentrates


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## SmokeyJoe (26/10/16)

Mustrum Ridcully said:


> Errrr.... NO. You might want to revise the principle of diffusion:
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion
> 
> ...


Man i really wish i didnt bunk chem class so much


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## PsiSan (26/10/16)

Have retracted all my post in this topic.


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## Ernest (26/10/16)

Whether you are heating your juice or not, if you leave it open you will lose flavor. I never open a bottle while it is steeping. Once mixed and sealed it will remain sealed for two weeks before I open it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Ezekiel (26/10/16)

Lo everyone.

Just chiming in with a few things:

Heating will cause more volatile compounds to evaporate faster, even before boiling point. However, you will only lose flavour if you heat over an extended period of time with the cap open. If you keep the cap closed, the system will reach equilibrium pretty fast due to pressure in the bottle - in this case, continued heating will result in molecules with a higher kinetic energy, but still predominantly in liquid form. The only time you will lose significant flavour due to evaporation is if you heat for extended periods of time with the cap open (eg. Fractional Distillation).

The amount of flavour compounds in the 'head' (in gaseous form) is something I wouldnt be particularly concerned with, unless (again) you leave the cap open for very extended periods of time, and leave it before a fan. Generally, the region directly above the liquid phase will be almost instantaneously saturated, giving an interphase equilibrium. This region needs to diffuse throughout its neighbouring region (above the bottle opening effectively) before more flavour compounds will be evaporated from the bottle. The rate of diffusion (even for gases) is much slower than the process of evaporation from the liquid AT equilibrium, unless diffusion is helped along through ie a fan. In addition, at room temperature, there will really be a very low concentration of flavour compounds in the head of a closed bottle in comparison to the liquid concentration.

The process of evaporation is different from diffusion. Diffusion is the spontaneous movement of molecules from a high concentration to a low concentration and is driven by entropy. While increased kinetic energy (heat) will accelerate diffusion, it still reaches equilibrium once a generally homogeneous solution is present.

The main concern of heating your juice is the chemical changes. Flavour compounds interact, forming in some instances a) weakly bound flavor clusters, b) more strongly bound new molecules, or c) disintegration of existing bonds (which, in the case of creams, is actually advantageous in order to open up the flavour). Generally, if you leave your bottle to steep without heat, you reach the thermodynamic equilibrium of products - whatever they may be. Heating or speed-steeping allow some products to form through kinetic control. In many cases, the thermodynamic and kinetic products will be the same, in which case heating did actually speed-steep the juice. However, in some cases, a kinetic product will be formed and effectively trapped (either because it is a product of a reaction which have a low rate of reaction but is otherwise pretty stable, or because some of the original compound broke down into different pieces which then react separately), reducing the chance for it to react in the expected manner. This can be good or bad, but usually if this happens, you get a juice which will taste different than if you had slow steeped it.

Luckily, all of this is testable. If you have patience, then you can always make two batches and speed-steep one of them to compare to your slow-steeped batch. This way you can figure out which of your juices can be speed-steeped without influencing the final taste. Hell, you might even discover some wonky combination which prefers to be speed-steeped. However, as others have pointed out, slow-steeping is generally better and more consistent.

Finally, concentrates most definitely have a shelf-life. I have a few identical concentrates but bought at different times and even different vendors which taste completely different. Some concentrates also just seem to last forever. Unfortunately, none lf our vendors (AFAIK) list the production date of a concentrate, so it is generally impossible to really know when yours have hit its limit until you try it.

References: BSc(Biochem), Bsc(hons) Chem, MSc(Physical chem), PhD(Theoretical chem)(in a few months).

(I added my credentials not to be a ****, but rather to allow for anyone to ask questions. Do not be afraid to debate though - without some decent experimental data I, like everybody else, is just speculating. The chemistry of e-juice mixing is generally unexplored - I have a list of compounds for only the simplest of concentrates, and have no idea what is in most of them. The best expert to have on here would be a food and flavour chemist).

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 5 | Informative 3


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## Huffapuff (26/10/16)

Awesome post @Ezekiel - thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge.

As vaping and mixing is still a relatively new thing there are a lot of fishwives' tales out there. I look forward to the day when more research has been done.

But until then it's a lot of fun figuring these things out ourselves. I guess we're the vape pioneers


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## Andre (26/10/16)

Ezekiel said:


> Lo everyone.
> 
> Just chiming in with a few things:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the understandable juice mixing thesis, much appreciated. At least we know now - time is the safest option.


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## PsiSan (26/10/16)

Thanks @Ezekiel much appreciated. Well worded, and informative.


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## KZOR (31/10/16)

Thanks @Ezekiel 
Makes total sense. Thanks for making the time to inform us.


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