# Married Batteries... Why ?



## ShaneW

just wondering why there is such a hype around marrying your batteries in a 2 or more battery mod.
The way I see it is, if the batteries are not at the same voltage, the one with the higher potential difference will work slightly harder, until they equalise.

Can anyone give another reason why it is apparently so important ?

*Edit --> Please read this thread to completion before making your decision on whether to Marry (recommended) or not *- I'm referring to batteries here as marriage is always recommended to keep your partner happy in the long run

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## GerharddP

ShaneW said:


> just wondering why there is such a hype around marrying your batteries in a 2 or more battery mod.
> The way I see it is, if the batteries are not at the same voltage, the one with the higher potential difference will work slightly harder, until they equalise.
> 
> Can anyone give another reason why it is apparently so important ?


Based on what fact? Batts dont have any intelligence hence they do not know who is "stronger" . What happens is the one will drain beyond its safe limit before the other and you will damage that one. If they are at equal potential they drain at the same rate. Take that senario in a mod like the cricket...no electronics for safety...bad bad news.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ShaneW

GerharddP said:


> Based on what fact? Batts dont have any intelligence hence they do not know who is "stronger" . What happens is the one will drain beyond its safe limit before the other and you will damage that one. If they are at equal potential they drain at the same rate. Take that senario in a mod like the cricket...no electronics for safety...bad bad news.



Are you referring to a series or parellel system?


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## GerharddP

ShaneW said:


> Are you referring to a series or parellel system?


Doesnt matter. Look atvit this way imagine a fully charged bat in 100% condition as a 2 litre bottle filled with water. A bad old bat at a lower charge as a one litre. Connect them both to one tap i.e. the same load and open the tap. 1 Litre will be empty before the 2L. Series or parallel doesnt matter they both see the same load, your coil.

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## ShaneW

Ok what you saying makes sense in a series system, although the the difference would have to be severe to cause that much of a difference. In a parallel system however this is how I see it:
The load doesn't change so the battery with the higher voltage will therefore have a higher current draw until the point where the voltages are the same because of the excess draw on the higher potential cell. This will continue with the cell that has the higher voltage delivering more current...


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## GerharddP

ShaneW said:


> Ok what you saying makes sense in a series system, although the the difference would have to be severe to cause that much of a difference. In a parallel system however this is how I see it:
> The load doesn't change so the battery with the higher voltage will therefore have a higher current draw until the point where the voltages are the same because of the excess draw on the higher potential cell. This will continue with the cell that has the higher voltage delivering more current...


Ill post a pick later with some maths etc to show you.

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## GerharddP

GerharddP said:


> Ill post a pick later with some maths etc to show you.


Rember there are alot of things involved not just volts/amps but charge density an Ri values etc.


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## Christos

ShaneW said:


> just wondering why there is such a hype around marrying your batteries in a 2 or more battery mod.
> The way I see it is, if the batteries are not at the same voltage, the one with the higher potential difference will work slightly harder, until they equalise.
> 
> Can anyone give another reason why it is apparently so important ?


Take into consideration internal resistance and age. 
There is nothing wrong with batteries that are in the same condition to be used in pairs even if they are not married. 

It's just easier to get new batteries of the same type as new as a pair. 

Unless you have a logbook with all the mah you have put into a battery and how many times its not advisable to marry a pair that you have no history of. 

You can do it but it's safer to match new batteries because they will have the sameish internal resistance and same life cycle.

Last thing you need is a battery that discharge at 2.5v vs another atty 3.2 v.

IF you have a log book of your batteries then I will be willing to marry different ages of batteries. 
Chances are you don't and you probably don't have the equipment to test internal resistance and discharge the batteries.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## ShaneW

@johan i know you lurking, your comment pls Sir


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## johan

Hi @ShaneW, I agree with @GerharddP's comments above - I suggest you watch 

(from 1:11 time frame). BatteryMooch well known on ECF for his battery tests, knows what he is talking about. Round 1:30 he discuss "married" batteries.

Maybe I should commercialize my personal self made battery tester (_I just hate dealing with the end user and that keeps me away from doing it_) - by using a proper battery tester, everybody would soon realize how important battery management is. "Marrying" batteries; irrespective of series and/or parallel use, is extremely important from a safety- as well as longevity point of view for any battery.

PS. I know you meant well, but please never call me "sir" - that is derogatory terminology, reserved for Brits descended from so called aristocracy.

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## Silver

Interesting thread @ShaneW 

I see you are challenging the institution of marriage - which many of us take for granted  

Am interested to see how the discussion unfolds

PS - my married batts are still happily married

Reactions: Funny 6


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## johan

@ShaneW you read before I edited the post script! Kindly read again


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## BioHAZarD

Silver said:


> Interesting thread @ShaneW
> 
> I see you are challenging the institution of marriage - which many of us take for granted
> 
> Am interested to see how the discussion unfolds
> 
> PS - my married batts are still happily married
> 
> View attachment 47820


Just wait till they have kids. Vent central.
  

Sent from my Note 4

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Silver

Lol @BioHAZarD. Classic!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nightwalker

I came, I saw, I learnt. Thank you to all that commented. I've got two sets of married batteries for my RX200. 
When I got it. The EC group made sure of it. Being the ADHD prime minister, I didn't ask why, just did as was told.


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## ShaneW

johan said:


> Hi @ShaneW, I agree with @GerharddP's comments above - I suggest you watch
> 
> (from 1:11 time frame). BatteryMooch well known on ECF for his battery tests, knows what he is talking about. Round 1:30 he discuss "married" batteries.
> 
> Maybe I should commercialize my personal self made battery tester (_I just hate dealing with the end user and that keeps me away from doing it_) - by using a proper battery tester, everybody would soon realize how important battery management is. "Marrying" batteries; irrespective of series and/or parallel use, is extremely important from a safety- as well as longevity point of view for any battery.
> 
> PS. I know you meant well, but please never call me "sir" - that is derogatory terminology, reserved for Brits descended from so called aristocracy.




Hahahaha apologies, perhaps Meneer is a more appealing term... I only use as a sign of respect.

Why would you say it's a safety concern, what do you think could happen? 

Thanks for Video and he only affirms what I am trying to get at (1hr33m)... Married batteries is not the bee all and end all and unless the 2 batteries are vastly different or you running them down to discharge hell, I really don't see the issue. 

What we do have to remember though is that these batteries are being used by people that don't fully understand what they are doing with the electrical circuits they are creating, and perhaps don't know the state of a battery or its charge level. For this reason I agree that's it's safer to tell them to marry the batteries.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GerharddP

ShaneW said:


> Hahahaha apologies, perhaps Meneer is a more appealing term... I only use as a sign of respect.
> 
> Why would you say it's a safety concern, what do you think could happen?
> 
> Thanks for Video and he only affirms what I am trying to get at (1hr33m)... Married batteries is not the bee all and end all and unless the 2 batteries are vastly different or you running them down to discharge hell, I really don't see the issue.
> 
> What we do have to remember though is that these batteries are being used by people that don't fully understand what they are doing with the electrical circuits they are creating, and perhaps don't know the state of a battery or its charge level. For this reason I agree that's it's safer to tell them to marry the batteries.


A vent and or catastrophic thermal runaway could happen. Nothing serious. Its not the alpha/omega of all no but it does prevent "freak" accidents by just getting bats from the same batch/supplier at the same time.


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## ShaneW

GerharddP said:


> A vent and or catastrophic thermal runaway could happen. Nothing serious. Its not the alpha/omega of all no but it does prevent "freak" accidents by just getting bats from the same batch/supplier at the same time.



Why would it start either of those? In your example of the 2 bottles of water, you said the bad old battery will deplete quicker... do you think this could cause thermal runaway or venting? I was under the impression that it is caused from heat and over-driving past its limit.


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## ShaneW

GerharddP said:


> A vent and or catastrophic thermal runaway could happen. Nothing serious. Its not the alpha/omega of all no but it does prevent "freak" accidents by just getting bats from the same batch/supplier at the same time.



Hey I am fully in support of using batteries from the same batch/supplier but its the 'Marrying' that I am contesting here... people have made such a big thing about it, to the point where if there is even 1 charge cycle difference, they toss the 'marriage' and go out and buy a new set


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## Silver

Lol, i noticed my married sets of batts started flirting with other bachelor batteries in my battery box this morning...

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## ShaneW

Silver said:


> Lol, i noticed my married sets of batts started flirting with other bachelor batteries in my battery box this morning...



Be careful of that, the wife battery is bound to start venting soon

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## BioHAZarD

Silver said:


> Lol, i noticed my married sets of batts started flirting with other bachelor batteries in my battery box this morning...


LMAO. Remember to tell them to use protection. They are full of chemicals and can't think straight

Sent from my Note 4

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## Silver

BioHAZarD said:


> LMAO. Remember to tell them to use protection. They are full of chemicals and can't think straight
> 
> Sent from my Note 4



Lol @BioHAZarD !
I only have two battery sleeves


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## BioHAZarD

Silver said:


> Lol @BioHAZarD !
> I only have two battery sleeves


They will have to share?

Sent from my Note 4

Reactions: Funny 1


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## GerharddP

ShaneW said:


> Why would it start either of those? In your example of the 2 bottles of water, you said the bad old battery will deplete quicker... do you think this could cause thermal runaway or venting? I was under the impression that it is caused from heat and over-driving past its limit.


Look without going into too much detail here is a lowdown. Batteries have internal resistances. these change with voltage levels. If you battery goes below its safe drain limit it means it has to work harder to overcome its own resistance. Thus heat is generated. Heat increases that resistance and the cycle continues until enough heat is built up for venting . http://batteryuniversity.com/ very good read. In fact I would suggest it

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## ShaneW

Thanks for that link @GerharddP, very interesting.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_803a_cell_mismatch_balancing

extract from that page:
*Let’s look at what happens to a weak cell that is strung together with stronger cells in a pack. The weak cell holds less capacity and is discharged more quickly than their strong brothers. Going empty first causes their strong brothers to overrun their feeble sibling to the point where a high load can push the weak cell into reverse polarity. Nickel-cadmium can tolerate a reverse voltage of minus 0.2V at a few milliamps, but exceeding this will cause a permanent electrical short. On charge, the weak cell reaches full charge first, and then goes into heat-generating overcharge, while the strong brothers still accept charge and stay cool. The weak cell experiences a disadvantage on both charge and discharge; it continues to weaken until giving up the struggle.*

This is exactly what I was looking for and although they are referring to battery packs its very interesting and reasonably relevant to a series mod configuration. Scary thought that the weaker cell could potentially go into reverse polarity  the question is would someone realise that this is happening before it ever gets to that point? In a 2 battery configuration I would think they would definitely notice this as the series voltage is going to be horrible and indicate flat battery (regulated mod)


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## Silver

My question is would the electronics on the mods be intelligent enough to know when things are potentially going pear shaped and tell you to replace batteries or just stop working as a safety measure?


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## GerharddP

ShaneW said:


> Thanks for that link @GerharddP, very interesting.
> 
> http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_803a_cell_mismatch_balancing
> 
> extract from that page:
> *Let’s look at what happens to a weak cell that is strung together with stronger cells in a pack. The weak cell holds less capacity and is discharged more quickly than their strong brothers. Going empty first causes their strong brothers to overrun their feeble sibling to the point where a high load can push the weak cell into reverse polarity. Nickel-cadmium can tolerate a reverse voltage of minus 0.2V at a few milliamps, but exceeding this will cause a permanent electrical short. On charge, the weak cell reaches full charge first, and then goes into heat-generating overcharge, while the strong brothers still accept charge and stay cool. The weak cell experiences a disadvantage on both charge and discharge; it continues to weaken until giving up the struggle.*
> 
> This is exactly what I was looking for and although they are referring to battery packs its very interesting and reasonably relevant to a series mod configuration. Scary thought that the weaker cell could potentially go into reverse polarity  the question is would someone realise that this is happening before it ever gets to that point? In a 2 battery configuration I would think they would definitely notice this as the series voltage is going to be horrible and indicate flat battery (regulated mod)



Question is why risk all that? Just marry batteries, a lot let fuss. Some guys go and say "well i cant afford 2 new bats as well". I understand this as my budget is tight these days as well but can you afford an eye/corrective surgery if something goes wrong? 

Glad I could help, this site has taught me so much. Problem is guys go to the site, look at it and go BBBOOORRRIIINNNGGG and just leave. I will extend my knowledge to all that ask so if you dont understand a certain topic etc ask and i will assist as far as I can.

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## GerharddP

Silver said:


> My question is would the electronics on the mods be intelligent enough to know when things are potentially going pear shaped and tell you to replace batteries or just stop working as a safety measure?


That is exactly what I'm saying. Unless you have a very well designed balance board (that will bump up the price of the mod a lot) the mod might not react in time if at all. Remember its a very dog eat dog market and unfortunately the east competes with price and not with quality.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Thanks 1


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## ShaneW

GerharddP said:


> Question is why risk all that? Just marry batteries, a lot let fuss. Some guys go and say "well i cant afford 2 new bats as well". I understand this as my budget is tight these days as well but can you afford an eye/corrective surgery if something goes wrong?
> 
> Glad I could help, this site has taught me so much. Problem is guys go to the site, look at it and go BBBOOORRRIIINNNGGG and just leave. I will extend my knowledge to all that ask so if you dont understand a certain topic etc ask and i will assist as far as I can.



Look I personally am still not going to bother about marrying my batteries but that is only because I am very much aware of their state, I have a pool of batteries that are all the same age and are in reasonably equal rotation. I will never mix 2 types of batteries or a battery that I know is old with one that is new... the description scenario above is quite an extreme example of what could happen if you make a mistake

Having said that ...* I am not advising that anyone follow the way I choose to do things, rather play it safe*


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## GerharddP

ShaneW said:


> Look I personally am still not going to bother about marrying my batteries but that is only because I am very much aware of their state, I have a pool of batteries that are all the same age and are in reasonably equal rotation. I will never mix 2 types of batteries or a battery that I know is old with one that is new... the description scenario above is quite an extreme example of what could happen if you make a mistake
> 
> Having said that ...* I am not advising that anyone follow the way I choose to do things, rather play it safe*


I understand that it is extreme but there is sufficient evidence that these things do happen and I for one do not want to worry about if I will be next. Thats all I'm saying. The reason I get excited about discussions like these are not because of experienced guys like us but rather the "noob" that says screw this marriage business (insert joke here) and does get hurt. The world is so unforgiving that it will be headline stories about how crazy we as vapers are and that just boils my blood. It seems that the IQ or research capabilities of the average reporter these days are comparable to your garden variety snail.

PS. Not all reporters were harmed in the typing of that comment but if the shoe fits........


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## ShaneW

GerharddP said:


> I understand that it is extreme but there is sufficient evidence that these things do happen and I for one do not want to worry about if I will be next. Thats all I'm saying. The reason I get excited about discussions like these are not because of experienced guys like us but rather the "noob" that says screw this marriage business (insert joke here) and does get hurt. The world is so unforgiving that it will be headline stories about how crazy we as vapers are and that just boils my blood. It seems that the IQ or research capabilities of the average reporter these days are comparable to your garden variety snail.
> 
> PS. Not all reporters were harmed in the typing of that comment but if the shoe fits........



hahahaha... point taken and I agree fully. Am going to edit my OP in the hope that someone might not misinterpret my comments and hopefully reads this thread to completion.

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## GerharddP

ShaneW said:


> hahahaha... point taken and I agree fully. Am going to edit my OP in the hope that someone might not misinterpret my comments and hopefully reads this thread to completion.


Didnt want to sound like I'm hounding you bud. I have great respect for you guys. When it comes to my family and friends with vaping


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## Khan83

Silver said:


> My question is would the electronics on the mods be intelligent enough to know when things are potentially going pear shaped and tell you to replace batteries or just stop working as a safety measure?


Hey @Silver . I don't know jack about batteries or the internals of a mod but one thing I learnt recently is not to rely solely on built in safety measures if there are separate dedicated devices for it.

The onboard charging on the RX200 was supposedly slated as being good enough to evenly charge all 3 batteries . I did it this way for two months mostly because I was a bit too cheap to invest in a dedicated charger.

After checking the voltage on the mod I found that all 3 batteries varied drastically in their readings(_erratic depending on the charge but if I recall correctly , always over 0.24 volt difference between them_) . After getting a 4 bay charger they've all seem to come within close rage of one another now , never exceeding 0.04 volts.

Don't know if the initial difference was enough to cause issues but considering the power hungry coils we use nowadays I don't feel comfortable relying on just the onboard electronics.

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## GerharddP

Khan83 said:


> Hey @Silver . I don't know jack about batteries or the internals of a mod but one thing I learnt recently is not to rely solely on built in safety measures if there are separate dedicated devices for it.
> 
> The onboard charging on the RX200 was supposedly slated as being good enough to evenly charge all 3 batteries . I did it this way for two months mostly because I was a bit too cheap to invest in a dedicated charger.
> 
> After checking the voltage on the mod I found that all 3 batteries varied drastically in their readings(_erratic depending on the charge but if I recall correctly , always over 0.24 volt difference between them_) . After getting a 4 bay charger they've all seem to come within close rage of one another now , never exceeding 0.04 volts.
> 
> Don't know if the initial difference was enough to cause issues but considering the power hungry coils we use nowadays I don't feel comfortable relying on just the onboard electronics.


Cheap balance board. Like I said the world doesnt care..... 0fks given guaranteed. Thats why a DNA200 is +-3k and a "affordable" knockoff chip is 1/3 the price.

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## Khan83

GerharddP said:


> Cheap balance board. Like I said the world doesnt care..... 0fks given guaranteed. Thats why a DNA200 is +-3k and a "affordable" knockoff chip is 1/3 the price.


Exactly . Safety doesn't come cheap but as you mentioned , much cheaper than surgery .

Read somewhere that Wisemec may consider disabling onboard charging on the next software update but it was most probably on Reddit so I'm taking it with a pinch of salt


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## GerharddP

Khan83 said:


> Exactly . Safety doesn't come cheap but as you mentioned , much cheaper than surgery .
> 
> Read somewhere that Wisemec may consider disabling onboard charging on the next software update but it was most probably on Reddit so I'm taking it with a pinch of salt


I would also think they should as it gives them indemnity. I am not saying all batts die explosively but as a side note I have had one almost brand new tisiyi vent while on charge in the charger. Never went below 3.6 V.


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## Khan83

GerharddP said:


> I would also think they should as it gives them indemnity. I am not saying all batts die explosively but as a side note I have had one almost brand new tisiyi vent while on charge in the charger. Never went below 3.6 V.



Hence one of the reasons I NOW rather err on the side of caution . Technology may have come a long way in terms of "fail-safes" but it never hurts to take precaution

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## Kuhlkatz

Remember that married batteries do not apply just to Regulated Mods only. 
You need to have some balance in multi-battery serial or parallel mechs as well, as these are likely pushed harder than regulated mods. These units do NOT automagically switch off if one of the cells drop below a specific threshold faster than it's counterparts.

Unfortunately a mech mod is only as intelligent as the current person vaping on it...

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## johan

ShaneW said:


> Hahahaha apologies, perhaps Meneer is a more appealing term... I only use as a sign of respect.
> 
> Why would you say it's a safety concern, what do you think could happen?
> 
> Thanks for Video and he only affirms what I am trying to get at (1hr33m)... Married batteries is not the bee all and end all and unless the 2 batteries are vastly different or you running them down to discharge hell, I really don't see the issue.
> 
> What we do have to remember though is that these batteries are being used by people that don't fully understand what they are doing with the electrical circuits they are creating, and perhaps don't know the state of a battery or its charge level. For this reason I agree that's it's safer to tell them to marry the batteries.



"Why would you say it's a safety concern, what do you think could happen?" A battery discharged well below 2.5V with a husband/wife on the other side pulling serious current, will heat up and *might* start venting, ... and I fully agree with your last paragraph, if you don't know basic physics, use "married" batteries, irrespective whether its coupled in parallel or series.

Note: to whoever read this: *Batteries are supplied without brains, so please use your own*!

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## Quakes

Hi All


Sorry for bringing this thread back from the dead, but something I was wondering.

I got 2 Married batteries that was running in Parallel in a regulated mod. Will I be able to use them in a series mech mod?


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## johan

Quakes said:


> Hi All
> 
> 
> Sorry for bringing this thread back from the dead, but something I was wondering.
> 
> I got 2 Married batteries that was running in Parallel in a regulated mod. Will I be able to use them in a series mech mod?



Yes, proviso you don't exceed the batteries maximum current specification. Please note; in series connection the current available will be half what is was in parallel connection. (i.e: each individual battery maximum current specification = 10A, and fully charged voltage = 4.2V. Parallel connected: maximum current = 20A and maximum voltage = 4.2V. Series connected: maximum current = 10A and maximum voltage = 8.4V).

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## Quakes

johan said:


> Yes, proviso you don't exceed the batteries maximum current specification. Please note; in series connection the current available will be half what is was in parallel connection. (i.e: each individual battery maximum current specification = 10A, and fully charged voltage = 4.2V. Parallel connected: maximum current = 20A and maximum voltage = 4.2V. Series connected: maximum current = 10A and maximum voltage = 8.4V).


Great, Thanks for the reply

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