# How hot does e liquid actually get



## Stranger (27/9/21)

To be honest I don't really know the answer to this one, what I do know is if I get a lot of spitback it burns my tongue that can take a day or two to heal.

So what temps is that juice getting to to vaporise 200C + ?

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

Stranger said:


> To be honest I don't really know the answer to this one, what I do know is if I get a lot of spitback it burns my tongue that can take a day or two to heal.
> 
> So what temps is that juice getting to to vaporise 200C + ?



In theory, your coils / mesh would never go above the boiling temp of the liquids surrounding them, so;
Glycerol has a boiling point of 290°C, and Propylene Glycol of 188,2°C, (_at sea level_). You can calculate the average based on the VG/PG ratio.
This does not take into account nicotine and various other chemicals in flavors, however it shouldn't affect it markedly, other than the addition of water, which would!

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## Resistance (27/9/21)

I don't know ,but I can tell you from experience It gets blistering hot.

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## Grand Guru (27/9/21)

Good question @Stranger. I've always wondered why Nicotine should be kept in the fridge while we are cooking the cr@p out of e-juice to deliver the same nicotine? Doesn't it get altered through the process?

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## ivc_mixer (27/9/21)

What is the temperature of lava? That's how it feels when I get spitback while vaping at 95W...

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

Grand Guru said:


> Good question @Stranger. I've always wondered why Nicotine should be kept in the fridge while we are cooking the cr@p out of e-juice to deliver the same nicotine? Doesn't it get altered through the process?



I've often wondered about people storing their Nic in fridges, (_I don't!_) ... Nicotine oxidizes when exposed to air, and is an exothermic reaction, meaning heat is produced or released during this reaction, however, assuming an airtight container, a fridge wouldn't be necessary, as no reaction is taking place.

The part about cooking the crap out of it also shouldn't have any bearing as the boiling point of nicotine is 247°C .... way above that of PG and VG, meaning it will be carried out by the VG/PG before it has a chance to oxidise much more than free air would do to it.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

Ooops correction ... I assumed a 50:50 PG/VG Ratio which I vape, to which the boiling temp would be around 239°C

However in the case of higher percentages of VG to PG, you start exceeding the boiling temperature of Nicotine, and increasing the possibility of oxidation, so the boiling temps are as follows;

Nicotine 247°C
Max PG 188.2°C
50:50 239.1°C
60:40 249.28°C
70:30 259.46°C
80:20 269.64°C
Max VG 290°C

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Ooops correction ... I assumed a 50:50 PG/VG Ratio which I vape, to which the boiling temp would be around 239°C
> 
> However in the case of higher percentages of VG to PG, you start exceeding the boiling temperature of Nicotine, and increasing the possibility of oxidation, so the boiling temps are as follows;
> 
> ...


Now I confused cause I vape in TC mode at 210°c. 
According to this I shouldn't get anything at 210°c, like nadda...


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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> Now I confused cause I vape in TC mode at 210°c.
> According to this I shouldn't get anything at 210°c, like nadda...
> Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk



LOL ... Assuming your mod is accurate enough? ... it is indeed possible to get it to 210°C
If we look at the boiling temperatures data below, (and exclude Nic for ease of calculation), and you set your mod for 210°C with Max PG in your tank, then providing your wick and coil remained wet, the temperature could never go above 188°C.
However ... if you placed 80:20 Juice in the same setup, in theory it *shouldn't* vapourize, as the boiling temperature is 269.64°C, (_somewhat shy of the 210°C you're offering it_).

Max PG 188.2°C
50:50 239.1°C
Nicotine 247°C
60:40 249.28°C
70:30 259.46°C
80:20 269.64°C
Max VG 290°C

Feel free to confirm the above boiling temperatures, and then you'll see why I doubt the accuracy of TC mods as they can and do boil eliquid, and I would love to know how they measure, (_or is it guess-timate_), temperature.

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> LOL ... Assuming your mod is accurate enough? ... it is indeed possible to get it to 210°C
> If we look at the boiling temperatures data below, (and exclude Nic for ease of calculation), and you set your mod for 210°C with Max PG in your tank, then providing your wick and coil remained wet, the temperature could never go above 188°C.
> However ... if you placed 80:20 Juice in the same setup, in theory it *shouldn't* vapourize, as the boiling temperature is 269.64°C, (_somewhat shy of the 210°C you're offering it_).
> 
> ...


Well something is a miss here...

I am standing here vaping in TC mode on a DNA mod at 210°c, on a Zeus mesh (0.18 ohm @ 50 watts) with a 70vg/30pg juice and it vapes like a dream, big clouds, lotsa flavor.
And yes the mod does throttle the power to keep it consistent with the temp setting so TC mode is definetly working.

I have just set the mod down to 160°c and it still vapes well, although it's a lot cooler and the cloud smaller but still vapable.

Further to that how would a MTL device work then at say 10 watts..I cannot for the life of me see that reaching temps of 250°c plus at 10 watts 



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## DougP (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> LOL ... Assuming your mod is accurate enough? ... it is indeed possible to get it to 210°C
> If we look at the boiling temperatures data below, (and exclude Nic for ease of calculation), and you set your mod for 210°C with Max PG in your tank, then providing your wick and coil remained wet, the temperature could never go above 188°C.
> However ... if you placed 80:20 Juice in the same setup, in theory it *shouldn't* vapourize, as the boiling temperature is 269.64°C, (_somewhat shy of the 210°C you're offering it_).
> 
> ...











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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

I'm not for a minute arguing whether you're vaping or not at said mod stated temperatures Doug, however I am quoting scientific data which contradicts what your mod is telling you

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk



So the stalemate here is ... Do we believe the mod manufacturers or scientific evidence?

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I'm not for a minute arguing whether you're vaping or not at said mod stated temperatures Doug, however I am quoting scientific data which contradicts what your mod is telling you
> View attachment 240206
> View attachment 240207


This is where I step back and bow out, I do not have enough knowledge or expertise to even try and debate this...

All I can say right now is that the practical side is proving the scientific data completely wrong.
In essence the science says that if you don't heat nic up to 247°c then it will not vaporise. On that fact alone I fail to see then how pod devices, and mtl builds running at 10 watts etc can ever achieve this type of temp to provide the vape they do including the nic hit, unless I'm just stupid.

This would also mean then that the whole concept of TC mode is just a big lie and public hoodwinking 

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## Timwis (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> Further to that how would a MTL device work then at say 10 watts..I cannot for the life of me see that reaching temps of 250°c plus at 10 watts



On the rare occasion I use TC I setup temp exactly the same for MTL as i do DL!

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Timwis said:


> On the rare occasion I use TC I setup temp exactly the same for MTL as i do DL!


Exactly my point. 
But do you set it for at least 247°c plus to get the nic to vaporise. Given the scientific data if you don't then you will not get any nic.
For interest sake what temp do you vape at in TC mode 

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> This is where I step back and bow out, I do not have enough knowledge or expertise to even try and debate this...
> 
> All I can say right now is that the practical side is proving the scientific data completely wrong.
> In essence the science says that if you don't heat nic up to 247°c then it will not vaporise. On that fact alone I fail to see then how pod devices, and mtl builds running at 10 watts etc can ever achieve this type of temp to provide the vape they do including the nic hit, unless I'm just stupid
> ...


The one line answer is Power and Temperature are not the same thing ... small low power coils in small chambers, aka MTL are very effective, in fact my ADV is MTL at around 10Watts ... my "Cigars" / DL devices come out in the evenings.
As to the Nic having to be boiled ... not necessarily, as it is a molecule in suspension, and is carried out in the PG and or VG.

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## DougP (27/9/21)

@Intuthu Kagesi 

You should be able to test this for us.. you the guru man...fire up your coil (remember wicked and juiced up) and then test the temp. I would love to see what temp it is..
Right now all I have is one of those temp thingies that you shove up a chickens arse when it's in the oven to check if it cooked or not, me thinks this won't work for a test like this 

Just on a point of note here... I am not trying to discredit or argue with you, I just find this hard to wrap my head around as it doesn't make sense as I stand here and vape at 210°c 

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## Timwis (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> Exactly my point.
> But do you set it for at least 247°c plus to get the nic to vaporise. Given the scientific data if you don't then you will not get any nic.
> For interest sake what temp do you vape at in TC mode
> 
> Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk


At 410 Fahrenheit which equates to 210 Celsius so no would be nowhere near 247 mate!

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Timwis said:


> At 410 Fahrenheit which equates to 210 Celsius so no would be nowhere near 247 mate!


Or even the 240c required for the PG/VG to vaporise either. 
See this is why I am so confused and disputing this scientific data cause in practise it is completely different.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> @Intuthu Kagesi
> 
> You should be able to test this for us.. you the guru man...fire up your coil (remember wicked and juiced up) and then test the temp. I would love to see what temp it is..
> Right now all I have is one of those temp thingies that you shove up a chickens arse when it's in the oven to check if it cooked or not, me thinks this won't work for a test like this
> ...


I guess I could ... but I already know that the scientific boiling temps are what I'll end up measuring ... Lets see now ... who should I believe ... Chinese marketing vs. the rest of the worlds Scientific community

You can test the principle in a fun way by building a paper pot/jug and boiling water in it over flames

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## Timwis (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> Or even the 240c required for the PG/VG to vaporise either.
> See this is why I am so confused and disputing this scientific data cause in practise it is completely different.
> 
> Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk


So we must just be imagination the e-liquid vaporising lol because the so called scientific data says so! My wife only vapes at 7w and she gets her nic hit just fine and she's refilling often! So that nic hit she must just be imagining and the PG, VG vanishing by magic as it can't be vaporising!


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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

Is there someone on this forum with a digital thermometer and or accurate thermal camera, as well as a TC mod and some plain PG/VG mixed at various ratios?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_point


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## Timwis (27/9/21)

Timwis said:


> So we must just be imagination the e-liquid vaporising lol because the so called scientific data says so! My wife only vapes at 7w and she gets her nic hit just fine and she's refilling often! So that nic hit she must just be imagining and the PG, VG vanishing by magic as it can't be vaporising!


These temps as well is the wire so how to test the temp of the liquid on the coil prior to vaporisation?


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## DougP (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I guess I could ... but I already know that the scientific boiling temps are what I'll end up measuring ... Lets see now ... who should I believe ... Chinese marketing vs. the rest of the worlds Scientific community
> 
> You can test the principle in a fun way by building a paper pot/jug and boiling water in it over flames


This goes deeper than Chinese marketing, it goes literally against the entire vape industry and the concept of vaping (freebase vaping). The practical does not match the science.

Once again, I am not discrediting or arguing with you I am merely disputing the scientific data 


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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> This goes deeper than Chinese marketing, it goes literally against the entire vape industry and the concept of vaping (freebase vaping). The practical does not match the science.
> 
> Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk


I acknowledge that it may well go against what vapers claim, however I'll take proven science over "broscience" any day.

I think part of the problem may also be that you're confusing electrical power with heat generation, and then buying into what mod manufacturers state as "fact" ... If we start by asking exactly how the mod manufacturers measure, (_and monitor_), the temperature of the coil/mesh, with any modicum of accuracy, then it'll make more sense, (I posted some data on this measurement challenge a few weeks back).

The easiest method to prove that science is in fact correct here tho', is to expose a deck with a TC coil or mesh in it ... wick it, juice it, and fire it up ... then check out the temperature(s) with an accurate thermometer or thermal imaging camera

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I acknowledge that it may well go against what vapers claim, however I'll take proven science over "broscience" any day.
> 
> I think part of the problem may also be that you're confusing electrical power with heat generation, and then buying into what mod manufacturers state as "fact" ... If we start by asking exactly how the mod manufacturers measure, (_and monitor_), the temperature of the coil/mesh, with any modicum of accuracy, then it'll make more sense, (I posted some data on this measurement challenge a few weeks back).
> 
> The easiest method to prove that science is in fact correct here tho', is to expose a deck with a TC coil or mesh in it ... wick it, juice it, and fire it up ... then check out the temperature(s) with an accurate thermometer or thermal imaging camera


Fully agree on test method...

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## DavyH (27/9/21)

@Timwis - if vape manufacturers insist on using something as irrelevant as the Fahrenheit scale to cater for the cousins, should they not also cater for the British by including a gas mark scale?

Gas mark 7 is a nice, comfortable 218deg C…

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## Timwis (27/9/21)

DavyH said:


> @Timwis - if vape manufacturers insist on using something as irrelevant as the Fahrenheit scale to cater for the cousins, should they not also cater for the British by including a gas mark scale?
> 
> Gas mark 7 is a nice, comfortable 218deg C…


If it wasn't on vaping devices I would just use Celsius! If it's on there I will use it, thanks! Really don't get the point of your post!

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## Resistance (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I guess I could ... but I already know that the scientific boiling temps are what I'll end up measuring ... Lets see now ... who should I believe ... Chinese marketing vs. the rest of the worlds Scientific community
> 
> You can test the principle in a fun way by building a paper pot/jug and boiling water in it over flames



The first time I boiled water in a plastic bag I became somewhat of a celebrity. Those were the days...

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## Resistance (27/9/21)

To everyone in this discussion. Smaller thinner wire less power can equate to bigger thicker wire with more power.

Some clever guy said that once upon a time.
So all in all we could all be wrong and right at the same time. 
Let's test this theory and then we praat!

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## DavyH (27/9/21)

Timwis said:


> If it wasn't on vaping devices I would just use Celsius! If it's on there I will use it, thanks! Really don't get the point of your post!


Just ragging on the Yanks, mate…

And then it got me thinking about other archaic methods of measurement

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Found this scientific study that tests the temps.
This is very detailed and sheds light on this.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5908153/#!po=32.2222

@Intuthu Kagesi this article is right up your alley, all that scientific mumble jumble just confuses the hell out of me. It does however show vapor being generated under the scientific boiling points

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## Timwis (27/9/21)

DavyH said:


> Just ragging on the Yanks, mate…
> 
> And then it got me thinking about other archaic methods of measurement


Funny thing is I have never owned a oven that uses Fahrenheit, they all use Celsius and even our whether forecasts use Celsius despite the myth when it is used it's used very much as the secondary scale it's just I tend to use it with TC simply because when TC first came out and I watched a few review/tutorials they used the Fahrenheit not Celsius and most were by Americans!

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## Resistance (27/9/21)

He used a thermocouple. So his measurements should be on point. The VG/PG mix ended up with higher temps.
And even at low wattage did he get extreme temps.

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Resistance said:


> View attachment 240220
> 
> He used a thermocouple. So his measurements should be on point. The VG/PG mix ended up with higher temps.
> And even at low wattage did he get extreme temps.
> View attachment 240221


The whole discussion is about being able to produce vape below the stated scientific boiling point .
That's said see below






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## Resistance (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> The whole discussion is about being able to produce vape below the stated scientific boiling point .
> That's said see below
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't that what we're descussing?

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## Resistance (27/9/21)

Resistance said:


> Isn't that what we're descussing?


Or weren't we debating that MTL setups could reach higher temps?

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Resistance said:


> Isn't that what we're descussing?


Yip 
I have been saying over and over I am not trying to provoke an argument. All I am saying is that my practical experience of vaping at 210c totally refrutes and disputes the scientific data of what the flash points are for these liquids. This study confirms that combustion was being achieved below scientific publish boiling points of the liquids 

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Resistance said:


> Or weren't we debating that MTL setups could reach higher temps?


In a nutshell 
The science says 

Max PG 188.2°C
50:50 239.1°C
Nicotine 247°C
60:40 249.28°C
70:30 259.46°C
80:20 269.64°C
Max VG 290°C

I'm saying nope I am vaping at temperatures below that (210°c)
And the science is saying nope you can't be because it's below the boiling points of the PG & VG 
And this study seems to substantiate my claim by saying yes you can be 
Something like that 

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## Resistance (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> Yip
> I have been saying over and over I am not trying to provoke an argument. All I am saying is that my practical experience of vaping at 210c totally refrutes and disputes the scientific data of what the flash points are for these liquids. This study confirms that combustion was being achieved below scientific publish boiling points of the liquids
> 
> Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk


Dude it's Monday. I was never going to argue today.
Non of this bothers me I was just interested in discussing something nobody ever discusses.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> The whole discussion is about being able to produce vape below the stated scientific boiling point .
> That's said see below
> 
> 
> ...



This is indeed possible IF you lower the air pressure, (which we do when we suck, by creating a lower partial pressure /vacuum), and reading that paper, it's not clear whether they measured statically or with a vacuum equivalent to someone sucking?

As a sidebar, but related ... I built a rig to suck a fixed volume at a fixed vacuum from a vape atty, with a spectrum analyser attached ... this in an attempt to resolve the subjectivity argument on coils, and my scatter graph looked something like the ones in the paper you attached, to which I labeled it as inconclusive with the large variances ... unlike what they have done

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## Resistance (27/9/21)

@Stranger eLiquid get hot bru!hothothot

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Resistance said:


> Dude it's Monday. I was never going to argue today.
> Non of this bothers me I was just interested in discussing something nobody ever discusses.


 yeah true, I just found this topic very interesting. But bliksem all this scientific mumble jumble is way over my head... 

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## Timwis (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> In a nutshell
> The science says
> 
> Max PG 188.2°C
> ...


At this moment fair enough I am testing the Obelisk 60w AIO but going by the warmth comparable to when i do use TC I would estimate I am no higher than 190 degrees, my liquid is 70VG/30PG 3mg nic and I have clouds galore and my nicotine satisfaction!

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> This is indeed possible IF you lower the air pressure, (which we do when we suck, by creating a lower partial pressure /vacuum), and reading that paper, it's not clear whether they measured statically or with a vacuum equivalent to someone sucking?
> 
> As a sidebar, but related ... I built a rig to suck a fixed volume at a fixed vacuum from a vape atty, with a spectrum analyser attached ... this in an attempt to resolve the subjectivity argument on coils, and my scatter graph looked something like the ones in the paper you attached, to which I labeled it as inconclusive with the large variances ... unlike what they have done


Way above my brain size. Just have one question..
This thingie you built does it at least make you a cuppa coffee...it so it's a great device 

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> Yip
> I have been saying over and over I am not trying to provoke an argument. All I am saying is that my practical experience of vaping at 210c totally refrutes and disputes the scientific data of what the flash points are for these liquids. This study confirms that combustion was being achieved below scientific publish boiling points of the liquids
> 
> Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk


Doug ... I know you man  ... and I welcome healthy debate  
I think the only way around yet another subjectivity vs. science debate is ... test it! ... and I think I'll involve you in the testing too!

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## Timwis (27/9/21)

Timwis said:


> At this moment fair enough I am testing the Obelisk 60w AIO but going by the warmth comparable to when i do use TC I would estimate I am no higher than 190 degrees, my liquid is 70VG/30PG 3mg nic and I have clouds galore and my nicotine satisfaction!


Just turned down to 15w (recommended wattage 40 to 50w for the installed coil), crap cool vape but it still produces vapor, in fact quite a bit!

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Doug ... I know you man  ... and I welcome healthy debate
> I think the only way around yet another subjectivity vs. science debate is ... test it! ... and I think I'll involve you in the testing too!


Naaa I would probably blow up your lab, and besides I have my test this attached study.


So can we agree now looking at your post that broscience wins this one...





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## Timwis (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> Way above my brain size. Just have one question..
> This thingie you built does it at least make you a cuppa coffee...it so it's a great device
> 
> Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk


Just agreeing, those scientific temperatures don't equate to practice!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> yeah true, I just found this topic very interesting. But bliksem all this scientific mumble jumble is way over my head...
> 
> Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk


I call Bulls### ... you're no fool Doug, and you are so gonna be involved in this test, so even if you don't know now ... you will know when we're done

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Timwis said:


> Just agreeing, those scientific temperatures don't equate to practice!


My point exactly.
I don't own a white lab coat.
I dont have the brain cells to even enter a lab.
I am a practical guy. And all I'm saying is me standing here vaping at 210°c, on a DNA mod, with lotsa flavor and clouds totally disputes their published scientific data.
So best these dudes get back into their lab and study this further.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> My point exactly.
> I don't own a white lab coat.
> I dont have the brain cells to even enter a lab.
> I am a practical guy. And all I'm saying is me standing here vaping at 210°c, on a DNA mod, with lotsa flavor and clouds totally disputes their published scientific data.
> ...


All I'm gonna say is ... It's a practical test

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## Resistance (27/9/21)

On that


DougP said:


> My point exactly.
> I don't own a white lab coat.
> I dont have the brain cells to even enter a lab.
> I am a practical guy. And all I'm saying is me standing here vaping at 210°c, on a DNA mod, with lotsa flavor and clouds totally disputes their published scientific data.
> ...


Topic. Boiling point and evaporating temperature are also two different entities. It doesn't mean it evaporates that it boiling

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I call Bulls### ... you're no fool Doug, and you are so gonna be involved in this test, so even if you don't know now ... you will know when we're done



Okay I have my (chicken in the oven - up its arse ) temp goodie, and I will hire a lab coat and see you shortly..






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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

Resistance said:


> On that
> Topic. Boiling point and evaporating temperature are also two different entities. It doesn't mean it evaporates that it boiling


There's an old debating maxim that states when in doubt, refer to definition;
*The boiling point of a substance is the temperature at which the vapour pressure of a liquid equals the pressure surrounding the liquid and the liquid changes into a vapor.*

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Resistance said:


> On that
> Topic. Boiling point and evaporating temperature are also two different entities. It doesn't mean it evaporates that it boiling


Give @Intuthu Kagesi a klap on the head then and tell him that..he is disputing this all 

Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> There's an old debating maxim that states when in doubt, refer to definition;
> *The boiling point of a substance is the temperature at which the vapour pressure of a liquid equals the pressure surrounding the liquid and the liquid changes into a vapor.*


@Resistance ... Now it's your turn.. do us proud ... Put your white lab coat on and sort this man out 

Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk

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## Timwis (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> Okay I have my (chicken in the oven - up its arse ) temp goodie, and I will hire a lab coat and see you shortly..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now that adds more confusion, meat carries on increasing in temperature for about 10 minutes after removing from the heat source!

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Timwis said:


> Now that adds more confusion, meat carries on increasing in temperature for about 10 minutes after removing from the heat source!


Not true, the science says that only applies to a oven. If you use an air fryer it only increases for 4.32 sec.
That's why you should use a air fryer.

Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk

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## Timwis (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> Not true, the science says that only applies to a oven. If you use an air fryer it only increases for 4.32 sec.
> That's why you should use a air fryer.
> 
> Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk


I dispute the science!

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Just have to say... Thanks to all involved here, I am finding this topic very interesting. 
It appears we have a case here where the actual experiance disputes the science 

Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Timwis said:


> I dispute the science!








Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk

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## Feliks Karp (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> There's an old debating maxim that states when in doubt, refer to definition;
> *The boiling point of a substance is the temperature at which the vapour pressure of a liquid equals the pressure surrounding the liquid and the liquid changes into a vapor.*



Should I be a ***** and derail things saying that it isn't a vapor but more accurately an aerosol?

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Feliks Karp said:


> Should I be a ***** and derail things saying that it isn't a vapor but more accurately an aerosol?


 gawd help us...my brain is fried already 

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## Timwis (27/9/21)

Feliks Karp said:


> Should I be a ***** and derail things saying that it isn't a vapor but more accurately an aerosol?


No idea mate, I am just trying to work out all the possibilities of *****!

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Feliks Karp said:


> Should I be a ***** and derail things saying that it isn't a vapor but more accurately an aerosol?


So whats the boiling 'aerosal' point temp of PG then. 
Scientific answer only 

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Timwis said:


> No idea mate, I am just trying to work out all the possibilities of *****!


Me to most of those types of words I know only have 4 letters, this one has 5. 
Maybe it might not be an English word 

Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

Feliks Karp said:


> Should I be a ***** and derail things saying that it isn't a vapor but more accurately an aerosol?


It's a good point that you raise ... an aerosol is usually a liquid atomized by releasing a liquid from a high to a low pressure zone .... and there is a vacuum created when you suck, so maybe the answer is that it's a combination of both?

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Shall we derail this thread now and talk about airfryers while we wait for gurus here to run their tests...


Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> It's a good point that you raise ... an aerosol is usually a liquid atomized by releasing a liquid from a high to a low pressure zone .... and there is a vacuum created when you suck, so maybe the answer is that it's a combination of both?


Right now you clutching at straws. Just admit that this time the science is wrong

Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk

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## Timwis (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> So whats the boiling 'aerosal' point temp of PG then.
> Scientific answer only
> 
> Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk


!!!!BANG!!!!!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> Right now you clutching at straws. Just admit that this time the science is wrong
> 
> Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk


In the words of Winston Churchill; "We will never surrender ..."

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

DougP said:


> Shall we derail this thread now and talk about airfryers while we wait for gurus here to run their tests...
> Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk



It's already derailed ... 
Stranger wanted to know how hot eliquid gets, and was answered 65536 posts ago ... with something along the lines of "blerrie hot"

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## Resistance (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> There's an old debating maxim that states when in doubt, refer to definition;
> *The boiling point of a substance is the temperature at which the vapour pressure of a liquid equals the pressure surrounding the liquid and the liquid changes into a vapor.*


When a liquid is kept just below it's boiling point it still evaporates. 
You are now going to make me look for proof neh.

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## DougP (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> In the words of Winston Churchill; "We will never surrender ..."


Why when I close my eyes can I hear these words over and over now from you ..
This election was stolen 
This election was stolen 



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## DougP (27/9/21)

Resistance said:


> When a liquid is kept just below it's boiling point it still evaporates.
> You are now going to make me look for proof neh.



Go resistance....
Dam im getting some strong members on my team now...

Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk

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## Resistance (27/9/21)

Feliks Karp said:


> Should I be a ***** and derail things saying that it isn't a vapor but more accurately an aerosol?


An aerosol is different to vapour. An aerosol is a liquid or solid or both suspended in a gas.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Resistance (27/9/21)

Resistance said:


> An aerosol is different to vapour. An aerosol is a liquid or solid or both suspended in a gas.


Normally under pressure. But in some cases ,not.

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## Feliks Karp (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> It's a good point that you raise ... an aerosol is usually a liquid atomized by releasing a liquid from a high to a low pressure zone .... and there is a vacuum created when you suck, so maybe the answer is that it's a combination of both?



The difference between a vapor and aerosol is that vapor is a gaseous form of a substance and an aerosol is tiny particles suspended in a medium. What comes out of our mods is the latter. It's not both but is just an aerosol.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

Resistance said:


> When a liquid is kept just below it's boiling point it still evaporates.
> You are now going to make me look for proof neh.


Naah ... Only Doug pulls those moves

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## Resistance (27/9/21)

Feliks Karp said:


> The difference between a vapor and aerosol is that vapor is a gaseous form of a substance and an aerosol is tiny particles suspended in a medium. What comes out of our mods is the latter. It's not both but is just an aerosol.



This time Google mislead you.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (27/9/21)

Feliks Karp said:


> The difference between a vapor and aerosol is that vapor is a gaseous form of a substance and an aerosol is tiny particles suspended in a medium. What comes out of our mods is the latter. It's not both but is just an aerosol.


I'm not convinced that's true ... Why do we heat the eliquid then?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Resistance (27/9/21)

Feliks Karp said:


> The difference between a vapor and aerosol is that vapor is a gaseous form of a substance and an aerosol is tiny particles suspended in a medium. What comes out of our mods is the latter. It's not both but is just an aerosol.



No where in an aerosol is heat applied to start off vapour processing.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Resistance (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I'm not convinced that's true ... Why do we heat the eliquid then?


Great minds think like us.

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## Feliks Karp (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I'm not convinced that's true ... Why do we heat the eliquid then?



To produce the medium in which the particles hang. So much like when you breathe out, there is air but you are breathing out an aerosol of water particles and other bits of stuff like germs in those water particles. It's more of a question of composition than mechanical function.

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## Resistance (27/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I'm not convinced that's true ... Why do we heat the eliquid then?


Maybe it cold blooded

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## Timwis (27/9/21)

Resistance said:


> This time Google mislead you.


If it's on the web it must be true!

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## Resistance (27/9/21)

Feliks Karp said:


> To produce the medium in which the particles hang. So much like when you breathe out, there is air but you are breathing out an aerosol of water particles and other bits of stuff like germs in those water particles. It's more of a question of composition than mechanical function.


Nope I'll stick my my theory. Whoever wrote the article you read is teaching people wrong.
Was this a thesis you read or do you know the person that wrote it?

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)

Feliks Karp said:


> To produce the medium in which the particles hang. So much like when you breathe out, there is air but you are breathing out an aerosol of water particles and other bits of stuff like germs in those water particles. It's more of a question of composition than mechanical function.


I'm not disputing that a vape has elements other that vapor present, aka included atomised particles, and man has this thread gone South 
The original thread was on eliquid temperatures, which I answered based on the respective boiling points of VG and PG and evolved into an argument on Temperature Control accuracy, then aerosol and vapour discrepancies, and now into a discussion of the components of what we inhale ... O ... and I left out the customary air fryer discussion

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## Resistance (28/9/21)

Ok back to topic. @Stranger eLiquid gets extremely hot and aerosolises into vapour, with particles

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)

Lets really derail it good an' proper ...

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## Resistance (28/9/21)

I had good steamy discussion. I'm off.
Have fun guys!

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)

Thank you everyone for a fantastic evenings entertainment

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## Resistance (28/9/21)

Next discussion same topic)...steam! Choo Choo

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)



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## Stranger (28/9/21)

I am so glad that this thread provide you with such a great degree (F or C) of entertainment.

As such the Q remains unanswered except for the fact that there is indeed a bunch of aerosols on this forum.

I have taken the liberty of translating the answer below

Fokken warm
Verdomd heet
Putain de chaud
Verdammt heiß
Wela wela
Gostoso pra caralho
fottutamente caldo
******* te
******* vevela
Kuvuta moto
Ffycin poeth
Ukutshisa kushushu
Ukuncela kushisa

Please see if you can spot the short tongued Afrikaans speaker.

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## Dela Rey Steyn (28/9/21)

It's actually quite simple, it gets hot enough to burn the living daylights out of your mouth, and also hot enough to vaporize E-liquid to a point to supply sufficient flavour and nic to satisfy your requirements. What more is there to know?

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## DougP (28/9/21)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> View attachment 240254
> 
> 
> It's actually quite simple, it gets hot enough to burn the living daylights out of your mouth, and also hot enough to vaporize E-liquid to a point to supply sufficient flavour and nic to satisfy your requirements. What more is there to know?



Urm ....
You need to be more specific, and scientific specific...
Does it :
Vaporise 
Atomize by aeromizing, or
Boil 
To create the vape

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## Dela Rey Steyn (28/9/21)

DougP said:


> Urm ....
> You need to be more specific, and scientific specific...
> Does it :
> Vaporise
> ...


Option D: All of the above?

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## DougP (28/9/21)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Option D: All of the above?




Jokes aside this thread is actually very interesting...
It appears that the juice actually vaporises before the liquids boiling point. 
So how does a vape device actually work and what actually happens to create the liquid to vaporise.
This is the question, it clearly can't be boiling to create vapor 

Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk

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## Puff the Magic Dragon (28/9/21)

Timwis said:


> I dispute the science!



So do I!

Those bloody scientists claim that the earth is an oblate spheroid.

Everyone knows that the earth is flat!!!

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## Dela Rey Steyn (28/9/21)

Here is a lekker spanner to throw around...

*Ultrasonic Vaping Technology™ ?*
Ultrasonic Vaping Technology™ is atomizing e-liquid into vapour by VIBRATION.
Our devices are equipped with a customized ultrasonic vaping chip,
which vibrates at a super-high frequency while working,
hits the surface of e-liquid molecules, makes them magnify, split,
and finally change from liquid to aerosol.

https://www.usonicig.com/technology/

wonder if you can get "spitback" from these?

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## Grand Guru (28/9/21)



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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)



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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Here is a lekker spanner to throw around...
> 
> *Ultrasonic Vaping Technology™ ?*
> Ultrasonic Vaping Technology™ is atomizing e-liquid into vapour by VIBRATION.
> ...



I would love to try out one of these

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## Grand Guru (28/9/21)

It's kind of the same technology used by the Innokin Z80 and the Sensis?

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)

Grand Guru said:


> It's kind of the same technology used by the Innokin Z80 and the Sensis?


I haven't tried any of those either ... are they available locally?


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## Stranger (28/9/21)

Instant vs boiling point.

So the science says > boiling point. Does the eliguid not vaporise instantly when it makes contact with a hot surface IE the coil. So we have a set of numbers that state boiling point but we have no numbers that say vaporize point.

Both @DougP and @Intuthu Kagesi have valid points. To make a liquid boil we need to have volume and then apply heat, perhaps to make it vaporise we need tiny amounts mixed with air molecules applied to heat very quickly ???

Is this the question that Hon LIK had to figure out.

If we look closely at a coil, there is a tiny section of wire resisting the electron flow, producing heat and a tiny amount of e liquid touching that small portion multiplied by the many small sections of the coil.

In the very first e cigs there was one very tiny wire

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## Grand Guru (28/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> I haven't tried any of those either ... are they available locally?


Yes at All Day vapes... you can actually hear the buzzing of the coil vibration when you press the fire button

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)

Stranger said:


> Instant vs boiling point.
> 
> So the science says > boiling point. Does the eliguid not vaporise instantly when it makes contact with a hot surface IE the coil. So we have a set of numbers that state boiling point but we have no numbers that say vaporize point.
> 
> ...



So the science says > boiling point. Does the eliguid not vaporise instantly when it makes contact with a hot surface IE the coil. So we have a set of numbers that state boiling point but we have no numbers that say vaporize point 
It's the same number ... per definition; "The boiling point of a substance is the temperature at which the vapour pressure of a liquid equals the pressure surrounding the liquid and the liquid changes into a vapor"

To make a liquid boil we need to have volume and then apply heat, perhaps to make it vaporise we need tiny amounts mixed with air molecules applied to heat very quickly ???
Nope ... Boiling point is the point of vaporisation, (_see above_) ... this is not to say that other particulates can't be joined in this vapour, such as Nicotine for example

If we look closely at a coil, there is a tiny section of wire resisting the electron flow, producing heat and a tiny amount of e liquid touching that small portion multiplied by the many small sections of the coil.
The coil may well get hotter than the boiling point of the eliquid at points, *but only where it isn't in direct contact with the eliquid* ... The vapour too can be superheated above the boiling point in question

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## Stranger (28/9/21)

OK, sometimes when I use my Weber I pre heat it. If I pour water on the lid it does not boil, it gets hot and runs off. If I spit on the lid it vaporizes instantly. Point proven.

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## Stranger (28/9/21)

*but only where it isn't in direct contact with the eliquid* ..

Yeah but no but

is that not the job of the wick, to pull the liquid to that point ?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## blujeenz (28/9/21)

Not that Im throwing my hat into the ring, I'm busy in the workshop on other things.
However, I did stick a K type thermocouple probe connected to a MT630 temp meter under the coil about 2 wraps in.



Its a 9 wrap SS #26 wire running at 33 w, measured 225 ºC after 4 sec, on top of the wire in the middle saw 342ºC and climbing at the 4 sec mark.
Pretty similar on the Pulse with the Citadel, changed to temp mode 180ºC, saw readings of 240ºC plus on top of the wire roundabout 3 sec.

...and a nice cuppa tea is 65ºC, for what its worth.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)

blujeenz said:


> Not that Im throwing my hat into the ring, I'm busy in the workshop on other things.
> However, I did stick a K type thermocouple probe connected to a MT630 temp meter under the coil about 2 wraps in.
> View attachment 240274
> 
> ...



Thanks for that  ... *SCIENCE RULES!
*
The top of the coil not exposed to eliquid logically would be much hotter, and that you measure 225ºC leads me to believe you were running a 50:50 VG PG, (_or a greater % of PG_?)

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## Stranger (28/9/21)

My mate on Instagram said .... rubbish

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)

Stranger said:


> My mate on Instagram said .... rubbish


Deal with it

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## blujeenz (28/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Thanks for that  ... *SCIENCE RULES!
> *
> The top of the coil not exposed to eliquid logically would be much hotter, and that you measure 225ºC leads me to believe you were running a 50:50 VG PG, (_or a greater % of PG_?)


60/40 on the Dwarv and 70/30 on the Citadel.

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## Resistance (28/9/21)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Here is a lekker spanner to throw around...
> 
> *Ultrasonic Vaping Technology™ ?*
> Ultrasonic Vaping Technology™ is atomizing e-liquid into vapour by VIBRATION.
> ...


I was just thinking of this device.
This time you can call it an aerosol,but then again it still vaporises the liquid. It doesn't suspend the eLiquid in something else. 
Let's call it a Hybrid.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Stranger (28/9/21)

Thanks @blujeenz

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## Stranger (28/9/21)

In these early days, Lik’s invention was markedly different to the ones we’re now familiar with. Instead of a heating element, which is now used to heat the e-liquid and produce vapour for the user to inhale, Lik’s initial design made use of a piezoelectric ultrasound element. It was bigger and bulkier than the e-cigarette design vapers have become accustomed to today, but it was a significant start.

“In 2001 I devised a system on a large console, using food additives as solvents,” Lik told French scientific publication Sciences et Avenir in 2013. “At the time I was working on vaporization by ultrasound but the droplets formed were too big to resemble tobacco smoke. This technology is used for example in some household humidifiers; it consists of making a metallic diaphragm vibrate at an ultrasonic frequency in a liquid to create micro-droplets which then, upon contact with room-temperature air, form a sort of cold vapour.”

Read more: Different parts of a vape pen explained.

As the months passed, Lik’s idea was refined, and a smaller, more practical device that used a heating element was patented in China in 2003. In 2004, e-cigarettes hit the market for the first time through the Chinese company Ruyan, which Hon worked for. In 2005, Ruyan started exporting e-cigarettes outside of China, and in 2007 they entered into the US market.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)

blujeenz said:


> 60/40 on the Dwarv and 70/30 on the Citadel.



Interesting ... Whilst it proves the point ... I think the readings could have been a little higher, (_even taking into account stacked errors on both the thermocouple and meter_), unless that juice has managed to absorb some water?... it is after all hygroscopic.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)

Just thinking about it ... @Resistance ... Don't you add water to your juice? ... What % do you add to what base mix? ... and ... Is it noticeably cooler as a vape?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Timwis (28/9/21)

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> So do I!
> 
> Those bloody scientists claim that the earth is an oblate spheroid.
> 
> Everyone knows that the earth is flat!!!


On the back of a giant turtle!

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## Dela Rey Steyn (28/9/21)

Timwis said:


> On the back of a giant turtle!


Held up by four mighty elephants!

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## Timwis (28/9/21)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Held up by four mighty elephants!


Naturally, didn't want to state the obvious!

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## Grand Guru (28/9/21)

Surrounded by a humongous snake

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## Timwis (28/9/21)

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Here is a lekker spanner to throw around...
> 
> *Ultrasonic Vaping Technology™ ?*
> Ultrasonic Vaping Technology™ is atomizing e-liquid into vapour by VIBRATION.
> ...


I have two of their devices, the Rhythm and the Zip. They have the ramp up of a milk float, the vapour is as cool as ice cream and battery life is shocking, 10/10 for innovation but you just can't get any heat into the vape! Absolutely zero chance of spitback, or should I say if it gives any just too cool that you would notice!

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## Timwis (28/9/21)

Grand Guru said:


> Surrounded by a humongous snake
> 
> View attachment 240311


Did that snake eat the elephants?

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## Puff the Magic Dragon (28/9/21)

Grand Guru said:


> Surrounded by a humongous snake
> 
> View attachment 240311



Now you guys are just making things up.

It's flat. No elephants, snakes, or turtles.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Grand Guru (28/9/21)

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> Now you guys are just making things up.
> 
> It's flat. No elephants, snakes, or turtles.
> 
> View attachment 240312


So what/who is putting all that overflowing water from the edges back into the ocean?

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## Timwis (28/9/21)

Grand Guru said:


> So what/who is putting all that overflowing water from the edges back into the ocean?


I know, a flat world without elephants recycling the oceans is ridiculous!

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## Resistance (28/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Just thinking about it ... @Resistance ... Don't you add water to your juice? ... What % do you add to what base mix? ... and ... Is it noticeably cooler as a vape?


Indeed. I vaped neat PG, neat VG.
PG with NIC, VG with NIC.
PG/VG.
PG/VG with NIC.
Pg100%
VG Max
PG with water. VG with water.
PG/VG with water
PG NIC with water
VG NIC with water
Commercial juice with water.
The combinations were endless.

The only difference was PG and or VG with water wouldn't heat up and vaporise well enough. The water boiled off on the coil and that's what I vaped. And it was literally blistering hot when it went in the wrong place.
Any mix with water give spitback if not steeped. Not ideal and when steeped it the same as any other juice no one even knew it was VGwW(max) when I gave them the Flavour Mill samples.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Resistance (28/9/21)

Grand Guru said:


> So what/who is putting all that overflowing water from the edges back into the ocean?


Every year when it's festive season and most people are on holiday it regenerates. Nowadays with less people on festive leave, we now face global warming

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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)

Resistance said:


> Indeed. I vaped neat PG, neat VG.
> PG with NIC, VG with NIC.
> PG/VG.
> PG/VG with NIC.
> ...



Thanks for that 
That's very interesting, as I would have thought the addition of water would cool the vape , (_water having a lower boiling point than both VG and PG_).
I do get that it would require a steep of sorts, as although both VG and PG are miscible and hygroscopic, the process isn't instantaneous

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance (28/9/21)

Intuthu Kagesi said:


> Thanks for that
> That's very interesting, as I would have thought the addition of water would cool the vape , (_water having a lower boiling point than both VG and PG_).
> I do get that it would require a steep of sorts, as although both VG and PG are miscible and hygroscopic, the process isn't instantaneous


Not really. Maybe when it's just mixed it's very different. Really hot spitback. Maybe even hotter vape ,but I can't say it's cooler.
A few days later and it's just as any other eLiquid. And I vape between 35-65W DL. MTL anything from 9-30W

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Intuthu Kagesi (28/9/21)

Grand Guru said:


> So what/who is putting all that overflowing water from the edges back into the ocean?


Maybe that's where Boyle got his idea for the infamous perpetual fountain

Reactions: Winner 1


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