# KnockOFF Juices (cloned and sold as originals)



## MR_F

Hello all you Beautiful People 

How about we have a thread to keep track of all the KnockOff Juices(KO) we come across by posting pics of the Juice if possible and if you want naming the vendor or shop who sold this fake product to you and at what price 


the only one i know of so far is the Nasty Juice range ?
and as per THIS now Cuttwood also


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## boxerulez

Who is carrying liability for the possible legal action for naming and shaming vendors? You, The forum or the individual posters? Where is our resident Legal Eagle?


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## Hardtail1969

i for one, would appreciate a way to know a fake from a original.

Be that in pics or some other way.

Perhaps pictures of the original next to fakes? that way no name/shame takes place?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## boxerulez

Hardtail1969 said:


> i for one, would appreciate a way to know a fake from a original.
> 
> Be that in pics or some other way.
> 
> Perhaps pictures of the original next to fakes? that way no name/shame takes place?


Good thinking the 2 side by side confirming that the correct one is in fact original.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Marzuq

Might not be practical to do even a side by side as the intention of the post still remains the same.
And the vendor/person could easily argue that the juice is there take on the original and not a 'clone'


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## Andre

Marzuq said:


> Might not be practical to do even a side by side as the intention of the post still remains the same.
> And the vendor/person could easily argue that the juice is there take on the original and not a 'clone'


I think the OP's intentions (as said in the title) is about clones/interpretations *sold as originals*.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troll Brothers Elixirs

It's happening a lot with Fantasi and Ruthless as well, I've seen them at flea markets etc. Best case scenario it's just bad sportsmanship but worst case, there's some dangerous stuff going into those bottles. Would be useful to see if someone could run some chemical analyses on the fakes.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## MR_F

My Op was NOT for Clone juice recipes but for some one who uses the name of the original juice manufacturer use the identical bottle and design and sells it as the original but at a lower cost thus the reason I said KNOCK OFF 
so if this is not allowed can admins please remove thread.I honestly thought this would be appreciated or used as a go to guide for FAKE juices

Reactions: Like 5


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## Rob Fisher

@MR_F it is appreciated... clone juices are a bloody menace! Illegal, immoral and everything else bad!

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## Rob Fisher

If a vendor is selling fake juices I certainly want to know so I can avoid buying from them EVER!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## aktorsyl

I agree completely, fake juice is immoral and can even be downright dangerous.

As for phrasing: let's not confuse fake juice (dodgy vendors selling a fake juice labeled as the original) with clone juice (DIY makers trying to emulate their favourite commercial juice) though  Although there are some clone juices out there that should be illegal in itself... *looks at the first lychee menthol mix I tried and is still sitting in the cupboard eating a hole through a steel container*

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Rude Rudi

A different spin... This may, as an unintended consequence, actually benefit the offending re-seller by providing free 'advertising' here...

Let's be honest, these guys are selling it as there is a market for it - although 'we' all agree that is not kosher - people still buy it.

If we 'name and shame' it will simply provide a nice shopping list for the folk who are "in to" buying counterfeit juice, ie advertising where they can get the latest counterfeit...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rob Fisher

Rude Rudi said:


> A different spin... This may, as an unintended consequence, actually benefit the offending re-seller by providing free 'advertising' here...
> 
> Let's be honest, these guys are selling it as there is a market for it - although 'we' all agree that is not kosher - people still buy it.
> 
> If we 'name and shame' it will simply provide a nice shopping list for the folk who are "in to" buying counterfeit juice, ie advertising where they can get the latest counterfeit...



Anyone WANTING to buy counterfeit juice can just go to thier nearest flea market. Not sure anyone would WANT to buy counterfeit juice?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Rude Rudi

Rob Fisher said:


> Anyone WANTING to buy counterfeit juice can just go to thier nearest flea market. Not sure anyone would WANT to buy counterfeit juice?



I think they know...It's like buying a counterfeit Nike t shirt at the flea market - you KNOW that it is not the real deal but you do it anyway...I do not think the buyers are that naive that that they have no clue that the Cuttwood is R200 cheaper at the flea market and think that it is the real thing? Perhaps I am naive - but a reasonable person will surely know? 
If they are selling it at the same price and the buyer honestly believes that it is authentic, sure and granted.
BUT my point is that this could potentially provide free advertising to the unscrupulous bastards flogging the counterfeit goods.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Cespian

Sable Square China Town... I its the 2nd or 3rd store on your right if coming from Canal Walk side main entrance.

Discovered fake:

Nasty
Fantasi
Cuttwood

Fantasi confirmed fake as we compared to an authentic. Others assumed fake due to price.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1 | Optimistic 1


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## RichJB

There's a juice called Nasty? Maybe something got lost in the translation from the original Malaysian...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Scott

boxerulez said:


> Who is carrying liability for the possible legal action for naming and shaming vendors? You, The forum or the individual posters? Where is our resident Legal Eagle?


The legal consequences can be severe so I would like more information before expressing an opinion.


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## Robyn D'Oliveira

MR_F said:


> My Op was NOT for Clone juice recipes but for some one who uses the name of the original juice manufacturer use the identical bottle and design and sells it as the original but at a lower cost thus the reason I said KNOCK OFF
> so if this is not allowed can admins please remove thread.I honestly thought this would be appreciated or used as a go to guide for FAKE juices


I really like your idea.


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## Anneries

@boxerulez IF the information posted is true and correct, with evidence, and in public interest no liabilty.. as per our legal eagles post in me asking about posting the pink battery saga on social media. And I quote ...



Scott said:


> Publishing the link on social media would not attract any form of liability in the form of defamation provided the information published is true and in the public interest. In this particular case we would be fine on both fronts. What I would warn against is publishing any of the thread comments which are aimed at the integrity or honesty of the vendor. I personally believe we have every right to warn the inexperienced vape enthusiast who doesn't have the privilege of being privy to the expertise available on our forum. These batteries have the potential to be extremely dangerous or even fatal if they fail.



So If I read this correctly, keep to the point, with evidence and do not start name calling.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Scott

Anneries said:


> @boxerulez IF the information posted is true and correct, with evidence, and in public interest no liabilty.. as per our legal eagles post in me asking about posting the pink battery saga on social media. And I quote ...
> 
> 
> 
> So If I read this correctly, keep to the point, with evidence and do not start name calling.


Could not have said it better @Anneries. The test revolves around a second leg in that it must not only be true but publication must be in the public interest.
Passing off a juice as an original when knowing it is patently a fake could attract both civil and criminal liability. Such conduct constitutes fraud if a purchaser who was misled into buying a fake believing it was an original felt strongly enough about it and laid a charge. The original manufacturer could institute civil claims relating to piracy and loss of revenue and possible loss of reputation and future earnings if this occurs due to the quality of the fake.
I would not encourage rushing out and making potentially defamatory statements unless you sure of your facts and can substantiate your allegations. Remember he who makes the allegation of piracy bears the onus of proof. On the flip side you would have no issue in respect public interest if fakes are being passed off as originals.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## CMMACKEM

MR_F said:


> Hello all you Beautiful People
> 
> How about we have a thread to keep track of all the KnockOff Juices(KO) we come across by posting pics of the Juice if possible and if you want naming the vendor or shop who sold this fake product to you and at what price
> 
> 
> the only one i know of so far is the Nasty Juice range ?
> and as per THIS now Cuttwood also



I feel that vapers should just buy from reputable vendors...simple. There are a list of them on this very forum.

I cannot take the rep from Cuttwood seriously with comments such as *"Many have come to enjoy the product we make and unfortunately is not around in SA anymore. I would strongly advise you not buying any Cuttwood from any retailer as i have not sold a single bottle into SA for quite some time now."
*
Especially when you can buy Cuttwood product from 80% of e juice wholesalers in the USA as @atomicvapes does.


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## Mahir

To those in the southern suburbs, CPT, will know. There are many shops (not vape shops thankfully) such as SoundTech in Hyper ottery stock clone international juices. They have milkman, vgod and many other big international juices for around R150 a 60ml. The packaging looks legit but the juices are not. Clone international juices tend to be very common in cape Town, sigh


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## Mtoefy

Only saw this thread now and im abit concerned. I bought a bottle of fantasi orange for R265 60ml in canal walk by one of the shops in the walk through and worried now that it might be fake. How do u know if they fake or not. 


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## Smoky Jordan

Would like to add to this thread that I visited a flea market today in the East Rand and was shocked that every bubbly shop there about 6 at least were selling selling "fake/cloned juices under the original name. Jam Monster, French Dude, Kilo, Barry even Hazeworks to name a few at ridiculous prices. ( Jam Monster R120 for 120ml ) and let me tell you those shops were packed. Now that can't be right! But the kicker here is that they also selling fake hardware because a Pico kit can't be R100. Now to me selling a fong kong product that could short or possibly explode because corners have been cut is not on and potentially dangerous to the public for one and vaping itself.
If anyone needs more info from me to try stop this you are welcome to PM me.
Just needed to express this as it was weighing on my heart.
Thanks

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 2


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## JsPLAYn

I can forsee this causing a major threat for the legit vaping community and stores if not handled asap coz if it comes to light especially to non vapers or people wanting to enter the vaping community, many disturbing questions will need to answered and can cause alot of strife long run

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Reactions: Agree 1


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## JsPLAYn

It takes just 1 person to use this juice, have ill efects and go public and everyone will be ignorant to the 'knockoff' ordeal and smear Vaping itself

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Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## MR_F

Exactly the knock offs are going to ruin the reputation and the names involved with vaping


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## CMMACKEM

My barber in Paulshof stocks Nasty Juice


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## CMMACKEM

MR_F said:


> Exactly the knock offs are going to ruin the reputation and the names involved with vaping



My worry is government intervention. All it takes is someone to fall ill or die from these knock offs and the knives will be out.


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## spiv

CMMACKEM said:


> My worry is government intervention. All it takes is someone to fall ill or die from these knock offs and the knives will be out.



Or even worse... Someone could fall ill or die.


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## RichJB

Regulation will happen. Whether it happens in a positive (protecting consumers, raising standards) or negative (restricting freedoms, nanny state) sense is yet to be determined. I'm also not sure that regulation will stop clone juices. For sure, having a national standard for juices and making it compulsory for all juices to comply with that standard (clean room manufacturing, approved ingredients, hygienic storage) will help. But there will always be law-breakers. We have regulations for cigarettes. Cheap 'grey market' cigarettes continue to flood into our market. 

I don't think it will harm the reputation of the legit manufacturers. Has Nike's or Rolex's reputation been trashed by the dozens of cheap knock-offs? I think consumers are sussed enough, once they do some research having been fooled, to understand that they bought a knock-off due to ignorance. Once bitten, twice shy and all that. Ultimately it is up to every consumer to apply caveat emptor and look after their own interests. The government can only do so much.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## ZK1

We are not a registered vendor on here yet, so I will not name our juice or our company, but we have the means to protect local juice manufacturers against counterfeiting by means of applying a security holofoil with the logo of the juice manufacturer over that....think Hologram on your credit card, It's not a sticker, but a heat and pressure process, so it can't be removed and can't be reproduced by scanning the label and then printing it as it has reflective properties.

There is a saying, "If you make it, They'll Fake it", so I'm sure there are a lot of local juice also being counterfeit.


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## ZK1

I think the problem is, when someone does get ill from the counterfeit product, and takes the manufacturer to court, it's very hard and costly to prove that it's not your product if you don't have any security measures against counterfeiting.

I heard a story of a top local South African wine, that someone had at a restaurant in Australia, and them being from SA only noticed that it was counterfeit because there was a spelling mistake on the label.

Counterfeit products cost manufacturers a lot of money, never mind the damage it can do to the industry, I know it sounds like I'm just punting one of my products, but I think with the vaping industry being so easy to target with legislation etc. they will look for anything to sink us.


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## CMMACKEM

RichJB said:


> Regulation will happen. Whether it happens in a positive (protecting consumers, raising standards) or negative (restricting freedoms, nanny state) sense is yet to be determined. I'm also not sure that regulation will stop clone juices. For sure, having a national standard for juices and making it compulsory for all juices to comply with that standard (clean room manufacturing, approved ingredients, hygienic storage) will help. But there will always be law-breakers. We have regulations for cigarettes. Cheap 'grey market' cigarettes continue to flood into our market.
> 
> I don't think it will harm the reputation of the legit manufacturers. Has Nike's or Rolex's reputation been trashed by the dozens of cheap knock-offs? I think consumers are sussed enough, once they do some research having been fooled, to understand that they bought a knock-off due to ignorance. Once bitten, twice shy and all that. Ultimately it is up to every consumer to apply caveat emptor and look after their own interests. The government can only do so much.



Rolex, L Vutton and others have definitely had their reputation tarnished. I cannot count how many of my ex girl friends have declinded the suggestion of a LV handbag as a gift due to all the fakes out there. The same goes for Rolex.

With government getting involved it could deter new talented start up juice makers amongst other issues.


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## RichJB

I don't think that's tarnishing the company's reputation, though. If you buy an LG choc that turns out to be fake, do you think less of LG as a company or blame them in any way? You might be hesitant about buying a choc but if you know it's legit, you still think it's a good product and want it.

Although, that said, there is that demographic who will buy a fake, never realise it's a fake and then be unimpressed by the product.


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## CMMACKEM

RichJB said:


> *I don't think that's tarnishing the company's reputation, though. If you buy an LG choc that turns out to be fake, do you think less of LG as a company or blame them in any way? You might be hesitant about buying a choc but if you know it's legit, you still think it's a good product and want it.*
> 
> Although, that said, there is that demographic who will buy a fake, never realise it's a fake and then be unimpressed by the product.



Apologies, yes but it does make me personally think twice about buying their product.


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## daniel craig

Smoky Jordan said:


> Would like to add to this thread that I visited a flea market today in the East Rand and was shocked that every bubbly shop there about 6 at least were selling selling "fake/cloned juices under the original name. Jam Monster, French Dude, Kilo, Barry even Hazeworks to name a few at ridiculous prices. ( Jam Monster R120 for 120ml ) and let me tell you those shops were packed. Now that can't be right! But the kicker here is that they also selling fake hardware because a Pico kit can't be R100. Now to me selling a fong kong product that could short or possibly explode because corners have been cut is not on and potentially dangerous to the public for one and vaping itself.
> If anyone needs more info from me to try stop this you are welcome to PM me.
> Just needed to express this as it was weighing on my heart.
> Thanks


@MarkDBN


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## aktorsyl

CMMACKEM said:


> Apologies, yes but it does make me personally think twice about buying their product.


Well, I agree with half of that statement  It does make me wary of buying it (eventhough I still do, but with some trepidation sometimes). It doesn't make me blame LG at all, however.


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## JohnG

I have most certainly seen a lot of fake juices in and around SA. It's mostly sold by guys on Facebook, Tobacconist and at Flea Markets. I highly doubt a Vape Shop would risk selling fake juices. The price of the juice is a dead giveaway!


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## RichJB

JohnG said:


> The price of the juice is a dead giveaway!



We should at least be thankful for that. Imagine the juice pirates were as sly as the battery counterfeiters, pricing their product the same and even slipping bottles of fakes into shipments of the original!


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## Cespian

Can anyone explain though... why Cloned Pico kits are being sold and supported? Its already cheap... I mean I can understand (and support) cloned over priced/scarce mods and atties like the Goon and Skyline, but an authentic full kit for R750? 



Most people know though, if youre buying a Levi jeans from a store under a gazebo in a flea market, it is most probably fake, regardless of the costs. People purchase cheap electronic devices from China Malls all the time... things that plug into their walls - despite knowing the great plausibility of 5th of November happening in the comfort of their homes. Maybe natural selection is the way to go in this regard.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## RichJB

It's a weird thing, they cloned the Tsunami RDA. One can only wonder why, that is a budget dripper. If you can afford the clone, chances are you can afford the authentic. It's only R100 or so more. So why clone it?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hardtail1969

Economies of scale guys. Most clones are made by the same factory that makes the genuine article. 
It's cheaper for factories to order materials to make more, than what is ordered. 
The remainder is then usually sold as "clones".
Of course in some cases there are direct copies of a unique item too, but those are usually made because they are high priced items.
Apple had huge problems during initial manufacturing operations in china because of this. So do other companies who manufacture there.


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## Mida Khan

The Fantasi juices are somewhat easier to tell, the colour on the bottles are off and they come in plastic bottles and it smells like alcohol!

The Nasty juices are on a whole other level, the packaging is almost exact, the smell of the liquid is almost identical and then u vape it and all you taste is alcohol.

Loaded and Ruthless are cloned as well.

The prices at the China malls / flea markets are a dead giveaway excuse the pun!

Its sickening quite literally.


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## Mida Khan

I have seen clone aliens and picos, they feel lighter although looks just like the original


Smoky Jordan said:


> Would like to add to this thread that I visited a flea market today in the East Rand and was shocked that every bubbly shop there about 6 at least were selling selling "fake/cloned juices under the original name. Jam Monster, French Dude, Kilo, Barry even Hazeworks to name a few at ridiculous prices. ( Jam Monster R120 for 120ml ) and let me tell you those shops were packed. Now that can't be right! But the kicker here is that they also selling fake hardware because a Pico kit can't be R100. Now to me selling a fong kong product that could short or possibly explode because corners have been cut is not on and potentially dangerous to the public for one and vaping itself.
> If anyone needs more info from me to try stop this you are welcome to PM me.
> Just needed to express this as it was weighing on my heart.
> Thanks


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## Sisco

Hi thought I would join here as I've found a lot of clone vape flav the problem with them is that they are way to close to the original ones in looks and tast you can put them side by side with the real thing and there's no difference but it's the price that gives it away at the fact that you are paying R100 to R160 for 60 ml of imports there's only one that was quite doggy will put the pic to show


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## franshorn

What is considered too cheap for juice? 

There is a shop, about 5 of them operating under the same name, that sell juices per ml. So to fill a 30ml bottle is only R75. I've bought a couple of times, and to me they are fine. Don't want to name the store, but I wasn't able to find any details on this forum


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## aktorsyl

franshorn said:


> What is considered too cheap for juice?
> 
> There is a shop, about 5 of them operating under the same name, that sell juices per ml. So to fill a 30ml bottle is only R75. I've bought a couple of times, and to me they are fine. Don't want to name the store, but I wasn't able to find any details on this forum


Well to make a juice costs less than R1 per 1ml.
HOWEVER. To develop a recipe takes months, and that cost is recovered by a higher price per ml. Some people obviously go overboard and overprice their juices to infinity.
For international juices, with importing etc included, if it's anything below R6 per 1ml I'd be wary.


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## Zane87

Question, most of the local juices sold in S.A. are made in a garage, lounge,kitchen, spare room or a "clean room". What makes them so safe compared to the these fakes? Let's not lie to ourselves that they are made in a lab.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Alex

Zane87 said:


> Question, most of the local juices sold in S.A. are made in a garage, lounge,kitchen, spare room or a "clean room". What makes them so safe compared to the these fakes? Let's not lie to ourselves that they are made in a lab.



Afaik, most of the well known local juices are made in a lab.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## aktorsyl

Zane87 said:


> Question, most of the local juices sold in S.A. are made in a garage, lounge,kitchen, spare room or a "clean room". What makes them so safe compared to the these fakes? Let's not lie to ourselves that they are made in a lab.


Well there's no regulation so there's no hard guarantee, of course. But the known juice makers use safe ingredients, and don't try to just imitate the smell of an original regardless of the crap that goes in there in order to achieve that.

Not really fair to compare the two. The local juice makers make juice, the clone makers make fake imitations to get initial sales. The former cares about what it tastes like and how safe it is (for repeat business at the very least), the latter don't give a damn. 

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## Zane87

aktorsyl said:


> Well there's no regulation so there's no hard guarantee, of course. But the known juice makers use safe ingredients, and don't try to just imitate the smell of an original regardless of the crap that goes in there in order to achieve that.
> 
> Not really fair to compare the two. The local juice makers make juice, the clone makers make fake imitations to get initial sales. The former cares about what it tastes like and how safe it is (for repeat business at the very least), the latter don't give a damn.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


I hear what you are both saying, but my point is local juices are not tested nor do they have any standards. Alex, I have never seen nor heard anyone confirm that they have any iso certified lab. If anyone falls ill from local juice, what are the legal consequences? Not trying to derail the thread, just asking.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## craigb

Zane87 said:


> I hear what you are both saying, but my point is local juices are not tested nor do they have any standards. Alex, I have never seen nor heard anyone confirm that they have any iso certified lab. If anyone falls ill from local juice, what are the legal consequences? Not trying to derail the thread, just asking.


Instead of dealing with innuendo, let's ask... 
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/all-juice-manufacturers.t39913/

Although I personally would have as much problem with homemade commercial juice from a reputable manufacturer as I would have buying a lemon meringue from a farmers market, ie none.


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## RichJB

Zane87 said:


> I hear what you are both saying, but my point is local juices are not tested nor do they have any standards.



How is that different from imported juices? There are no ISO standards for juice, nor are juices tested anywhere afaik. The most you can expect is that the manufacturer would have juices made in a lab that is certified to ISO lab standards. But the product itself has no standard yet afaik. ISO is working on vaping standards but it will take a while before anything is published.


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## aktorsyl

RichJB said:


> How is that different from imported juices? There are no ISO standards for juice, nor are juices tested anywhere afaik. The most you can expect is that the manufacturer would have juices made in a lab that is certified to ISO lab standards. But the product itself has no standard yet afaik. ISO is working on vaping standards but it will take a while before anything is published.


What'll most likely happen is that they'll expect juice manufacturers to implement ISO 9000 first, until that happens.
Which I am completely fine with, to be honest.


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## Soutie

With the FDA involved and the fact juice is used for inhalation and the fact nicotine is classed as a toxin, it's quite likely that juice will fall under GMP standards. GMP standards quite frankly put ISO to shame and will cripple the vaping market for all but the very very big players.


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## RichJB

ISO 9000 will help but it's not really food specific, it's more about things like system management. I would think ISO 22000: Food Safety is a more appropriate standard as that at least deals with contamination and suchlike.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## aktorsyl

RichJB said:


> ISO 9000 will help but it's not really food specific, it's more about things like system management. I would think ISO 22000: Food Safety is a more appropriate standard as that at least deals with contamination and suchlike.


Sorry, no idea where my mind is today. I meant ISO 22000, you're quite correct.
cGMP might be applied due to the nicotine, but I doubt it - unless it's classified as a smoking cessation device, in which case it becomes pharmaceutical and thus cGMP.


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## RichJB

Sorry, I am dof and wrong as usual, the American juice manufacturers body AEMSA has implemented standards. I'm not sure if it is compulsory for all US juice manufacturers to belong to AEMSA but it seems it is compulsory for AEMSA members to comply with the juice standards which can be seen here.


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## zandernwn

CMMACKEM said:


> My worry is government intervention. All it takes is someone to fall ill or die from these knock offs and the knives will be out.


This

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Reactions: Dislike 1


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## JakesSA

Common misconception here - ISO - International Organisation for Standardisation - Note NOT Standards. ISO certification prescribes that a set of standards be created by the organisation that implements ISO and that it be followed and all deviations be carefully noted and analysed and that said standards be adjusted accordingly to prevent future deviations. It is prescriptive in very few areas, for example calibration of equipment etc. Legal standards on the other hand are prescribed by law and compliance is not optional.

I have been through a few ISO certified food manufacturing facilities and I am reasonably sure most people's kitchens are cleaner.

For example, many of South Africa's cereal products are infested by the weevil moth despite coming from the biggest food production companies in Africa. Ever seen those little brown moths fluttering around the pantry?


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## aktorsyl

JakesSA said:


> Common misconception here - ISO - International Organisation for Standardisation - Note NOT Standards. ISO certification prescribes that a set of standards be created by the organisation that implements ISO and that it be followed and all deviations be carefully noted and analysed and that said standards be adjusted accordingly to prevent future deviations. It is prescriptive in very few areas, for example calibration of equipment etc. Legal standards on the other hand are prescribed by law and compliance is not optional.
> 
> I have been through a few ISO certified food manufacturing facilities and I am reasonably sure most people's kitchens are cleaner.
> 
> For example, many of South Africa's cereal products are infested by the weevil moth despite coming from the biggest food production companies in Africa. Ever seen those little brown moths fluttering around the pantry?


Agreed 50%. Well 60% 
It may not be completely foolproof, but if you have CAPA's every day eyebrows are going to be raised. Especially if you apply FSSC. But of course you're right in respect to some facilities being plain dirty. I think the key is more in the controlled-environment aspect.

That's for ISO22000. For cGMP, it's a whole different ballgame - but that doesn't apply to food safety, of course (and food producers mostly aren't required to be GMP-compliant - rightly so). 

Still, I trust ISO22000/FSSC with HACCP way more than I trust someone's garage. I guess it's all relative at the end of the day.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB

JakesSA said:


> Common misconception here - ISO - International Organisation for Standardisation - Note NOT Standards.



Standardisation is the field, standards are the product. The SABS is the national standardisation body, South African National Standards (SANS) is the product that the SABS Standards division produces. Although some SANS are developed from scratch specifically for South African conditions (such as the standard for Traditional Medicines), a great many are simply adopted from international standards which are produced by ISO or other international standardisation bodies like the International Electrotechnical Commission.



JakesSA said:


> Legal standards on the other hand are prescribed by law and compliance is not optional.



I've never heard of a "legal standard". The majority of standards, national or international, are voluntary. Those that are compulsory, usually for health/safety/environmental reasons, are called compulsory specifications in SA and fall under the auspices of the National Regulator for Compulsory Specifications (NRCS).


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## SmokeyJoe

JakesSA said:


> Common misconception here - ISO - International Organisation for Standardisation - Note NOT Standards. ISO certification prescribes that a set of standards be created by the organisation that implements ISO and that it be followed and all deviations be carefully noted and analysed and that said standards be adjusted accordingly to prevent future deviations. It is prescriptive in very few areas, for example calibration of equipment etc. Legal standards on the other hand are prescribed by law and compliance is not optional.
> 
> I have been through a few ISO certified food manufacturing facilities and I am reasonably sure most people's kitchens are cleaner.
> 
> For example, many of South Africa's cereal products are infested by the weevil moth despite coming from the biggest food production companies in Africa. Ever seen those little brown moths fluttering around the pantry?


Well, there goes my weetbix in the bin

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## JakesSA

SmokeyJoe said:


> Well, there goes my weetbix in the bin



Free protein?  

A lot of focus seems to be on clean rooms for mixing of juice but the reality is that most contaminants that could be introduced while mixing, if even basic precautions are taken, are completely harmless (and so are weevil moths other than the grossness aspect). 

I would be more interested in whether the flavour concentrate, nic ,pg, vg suppliers are ethical in disclosing the content of these ingredients supplied to the e-liquid mixer since very few e-liquid mixers have the ability or resources to verify these ingredients independently. 

Rather than a super duper clean room I would rather see e-liquid mixers attest to using ingredients only from approved sources who should, at least of their own accord, create a standard for what is permissible in vaping ingredients according to the best current data and also belong to a governing body who can independently verify their claims. In other words, if I claim my concentrates are diacetyl free, who is to say otherwise?

So, in essence, I would like to see a governing body that all reputable e-liquid and ingredient manufacturers belong to, whose membership fees are used to maintain a database of verified suppliers and actively test ingredient suppliers' products to confirm that these products indeed include what it says on the label and is as safe as current information allows. 

Dust won't kill me but minute quantities of arsenic to create that much sought after sour-sweet-minty-caramel-berry flavour probably will.

Reactions: Like 6


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## zandernwn

...and then all the certification in the world means nothing if the mixer gets his booger hook near the juice during mixing. 

The approach should be holistic, environment, people, processes and controls and as jakes rightfully said full disclosure on raw products

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Stosta

zandernwn said:


> ...and then all the certification in the world means nothing if the mixer gets his booger hook near the juice during mixing.
> 
> The approach should be holistic, environment, people, processes and controls and as jakes rightfully said full disclosure on raw products
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


A booger hook!!    The thought of this just....

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## RichJB

zandernwn said:


> ...and then all the certification in the world means nothing if the mixer gets his booger hook near the juice during mixing.



That applies to all regulatory efforts, unfortunately. You can have the most stringent driving test in the world, it's not going to prevent road accidents. Human fallibility goes with the territory.



zandernwn said:


> The approach should be holistic, environment, people, processes and controls and as jakes rightfully said full disclosure on raw products



I imagine it will be and the process is already well underway. Inawera have recently reformulated a whole bunch of flavours and are apparently now reformulating more. The reason is that they now need to provide full disclosure of everything that goes into their flavours. Some suppliers were unwilling to disclose so Inawera dumped them and used new suppliers. I can only imagine that the need to disclose is a condition of the TPD in the EU.

I think South Africa will need to do very little in terms of standardisation work for vaping. Flavour houses have already gone through the process of having their products cleared by the EU so there is no need to reinvent the wheel and do the same here. We would just accept whatever EU paperwork the flavour houses have.

ISO is already developing international standards for vaping hardware and juice, it will be a case of adopting those as SANS. If vaping is deemed a health risk (which seems the most likely outcome), the SANS will become a compulsory spec and all manufacturers will need to have their juice tested against the standard. It would be a fairly simple standard imo, which lays down maximum permissible levels for DAAP, contaminants, metals, etc.

The most elegant solution from both a manufacturer and consumer point of view would be the SABS Mark. To qualify for the Mark, manufacturers must have their product tested regularly against the applicable SANS and must also have a quality management system such as ISO 9001 or ISO 22000 in place. So the Mark on a juice gives consumers the assurance that the product is safe and fit for purpose, and that the manufacturer offers redress and has appropriate QM systems and processes in place.


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## JakesSA

Back to knock off juices, I would imagine there must also be a reasonable amount of e-liquid that gets 'dumped' on the market. What does the large vape retailers do with an e-liquid that does not sell well, and this may well run into 100s of bottles? This may also account for well known brands popping up in odd places at seemingly too low prices...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hooked

MR_F said:


> My Op was NOT for Clone juice recipes but for some one who uses the name of the original juice manufacturer use the identical bottle and design and sells it as the original but at a lower cost thus the reason I said KNOCK OFF
> so if this is not allowed can admins please remove thread.I honestly thought this would be appreciated or used as a go to guide for FAKE juices



I've also found that peeps sometimes don't read the original post properly, no matter how clearly you may have expressed yourself.


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## Hooked

Smoky Jordan said:


> Would like to add to this thread that I visited a flea market today in the East Rand and was shocked that every bubbly shop there about 6 at least were selling selling "fake/cloned juices under the original name. Jam Monster, French Dude, Kilo, Barry even Hazeworks to name a few at ridiculous prices. ( Jam Monster R120 for 120ml ) and let me tell you those shops were packed. Now that can't be right! But the kicker here is that they also selling fake hardware because a Pico kit can't be R100. Now to me selling a fong kong product that could short or possibly explode because corners have been cut is not on and potentially dangerous to the public for one and vaping itself.
> If anyone needs more info from me to try stop this you are welcome to PM me.
> Just needed to express this as it was weighing on my heart.
> Thanks



My understanding is that juice should be stored in a cool, dark place - not quite the description of a flea market! I don't think that ANY juice should be sold at flea markets - and I certainly wouldn't buy it there because of the storage issue.


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## Stroodlepuff

Spot the fake...customer bought one of them in...

Reactions: Informative 3


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## Strontium

One on the left

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Clouds4Days

Strontium said:


> One on the left



Yip batch number and manufacturing date not printed on label.


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## Smoke_A_Llama

Clouds4Days said:


> Yip batch number and manufacturing date not printed on label.



And the bottled by bit

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Stroodlepuff

Batch number was there just faded. But yes is the one on the left


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## DirtyD

@timothylang6


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## johankrugersa1

Hi Everyone

I am down at the coast and my brother ran out of juice, we saw this juice for R105.00
But I am not convinced that it is the real deal.
Not for that price compared to other Vape shops.


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## CMMACKEM

johankrugersa1 said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> I am down at the coast and my brother ran out of juice, we saw this juice for R105.00
> But I am not convinced that it is the real deal.
> Not for that price compared to other Vape shops.



Who was selling this juice?


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## johankrugersa1

CMMACKEM said:


> Who was selling this juice?


I am not sure but some small shop that sells a couple of juices and Vape related products.


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## Spyro

Cespian said:


> Sable Square China Town... I its the 2nd or 3rd store on your right if coming from Canal Walk side main entrance.
> 
> Discovered fake:
> 
> Nasty
> Fantasi
> Cuttwood
> 
> Fantasi confirmed fake as we compared to an authentic. Others assumed fake due to price.



I can confirm with 100% certainty that these guys are selling fake juice. I didn't realise it at the time, I bought all 4 flavours of Jam Monster from them. I bought cutwood, Milc, loads of VGOD juices, Milkman and a whole bunch more. I spent well over R4000 in juice. What drove my blood pressure through the roof was that almost EVERY SINGLE BOTTLE tasted the same, regardless of brand. I was so angry that I went back to demand my money back. He refused and I needed to bring in the consumer protection act printed and highlighted. Eventually I was refunded for the unopened bottles - I'd opened around 1/4 of them. 

Stay away from these guys. They also sold me a fake V8 stick and when confronted they insisted that everything was genuine and took huge offense to my accusation of them selling fake products. Worst of all, they sell the fake products at genuine prices.

Reactions: Informative 6


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## Spyro

Spyro said:


> I can confirm with 100% certainty that these guys are selling fake juice. I didn't realise it at the time, I bought all 4 flavours of Jam Monster from them. I bought cutwood, Milc, loads of VGOD juices, Milkman and a whole bunch more. I spent well over R4000 in juice. What drove my blood pressure through the roof was that almost EVERY SINGLE BOTTLE tasted the same, regardless of brand. I was so angry that I went back to demand my money back. He refused and I needed to bring in the consumer protection act printed and highlighted. Eventually I was refunded for the unopened bottles - I'd opened around 1/4 of them. I proceeded to dump the rest of the unreturned juice on his stores door step.
> 
> Stay away from these guys. They also sold me a fake V8 stick and when confronted they insisted that everything was genuine and took huge offense to my accusation of them selling fake products. Worst of all, they sell the fake products at genuine prices.





When I checked the scratch code on the fake V8 it had been verified hundreds of thousands of times


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## Hooked

JakesSA said:


> What does the large vape retailers do with an e-liquid that does not sell well, and this may well run into 100s of bottles? .



@JakesSA They have a Spring Sale, a Winter Sale, a Black Friday Sale, a Xmas Sale, a New Year Sale

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Spyro

Hooked said:


> @JakesSA They have a Spring Sale, a Winter Sale, a Black Friday Sale, a Xmas Sale, a New Year Sale


Yeah, it's true. Some guys are still running the black Friday sale!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ace_d_house_cat

Just an FYI: The Tobacco House at Carlswald Lifestyle Shopping Centre in Midrand sell fake Nasty Juice as well as a few others. The owner and salesmen seem to have no interest in doing anything about it. I will not support them.

Vapingmad FTW!


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## Moerse Rooikat

Spyro said:


> I can confirm with 100% certainty that these guys are selling fake juice. I didn't realise it at the time, I bought all 4 flavours of Jam Monster from them. I bought cutwood, Milc, loads of VGOD juices, Milkman and a whole bunch more. I spent well over R4000 in juice. What drove my blood pressure through the roof was that almost EVERY SINGLE BOTTLE tasted the same, regardless of brand. I was so angry that I went back to demand my money back. He refused and I needed to bring in the consumer protection act printed and highlighted. Eventually I was refunded for the unopened bottles - I'd opened around 1/4 of them. I proceeded to dump the rest of the unreturned juice on his stores door step.
> 
> Stay away from these guys. They also sold me a fake V8 stick and when confronted they insisted that everything was genuine and took huge offense to my accusation of them selling fake products. Worst of all, they sell the fake products at genuine prices.


name plz i live in cape Town and would like to avoid the shop

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ruwaid

johankrugersa1 said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> I am down at the coast and my brother ran out of juice, we saw this juice for R105.00
> But I am not convinced that it is the real deal.
> Not for that price compared to other Vape shops.


Hi Everyone
I just recently started vaping although being a member here for some time and might have also fell for these ous and their fakes. Also found vape juice at Fordsburg fleamarket, Milkman ie. Milk Pudding flavour.
To me it tastes ok but im sure they are not genuine. They have loads of Milkman and tons of other juices. not to mention tons of devices "almost" at regular prices.


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## Spyro

Moerse Rooikat said:


> name plz i live in cape Town and would like to avoid the shop



Not sure, but to be safe just don't buy any juice from sable square. Will get the name of the store next time I'm there though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mr. B

Hi All,

Great thread - I've noticed an increasing trend in CPT: fake juices being sold at corner stores and petrol stations all over the place. How do I know they are fake? Easy - price. International juices such as Nasty, Milkman and now even Naked are being sold for just over R100 per bottle. I've seen this in suburbs such as Athlone, Landsdowne, Ottery, Wetton and Malmesbury. If I keep looking I am sure I'll find more. 

I've spoken to some of the shop owners and they are utterly nonchalant about it. As far as they are concerned; they purchase the products locally (I don't know where) and resell the items as they would any other product. There is a wholesaler who sell these juices in CPT. 

They are even starting to sell fake Cotton Bacon V2. I know this is fake as I bought one for R25 and when I opened it I saw immediately that it was not nearly close to the quality of the original Cotton Bacon.

Reactions: Like 1


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## De_Stroyer

I had some incredibly well priced VGOD SOURLICIOUS juice recently,
and i always suspected something was off about it.

I now know that fake juice exists.
Sigh


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## Hooked

Mr. B said:


> Hi All,
> 
> How do I know they are fake? Easy - price. International juices such as Nasty, Milkman and now even Naked are being sold for just over R100 per bottle.



@Mr. B Uh-oh!!! You've just given a tip to the sellers of fake juice! If the price had been the same as the real one's price, no-one would suspect a thing!


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## Spyro

@Cespian Shop A14 China Town - Sable Square (Shop I mentioned in my previous rant) literally fake everything. You name it they have it.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Sisco

How to spot fake nasty juice will post more. As i find them






Sent from my LG-H735 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Sisco

https://m.made-in-china.com/hot-china-products/E_Liquid-3.html



This is a site that actually sells fake eliquids that aremade in china guess we can use it to see what newfake eliquids they are bringing out to make sure we dont buy fakes 

Sent from my LG-H735 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Stosta

Sisco said:


> How to spot fake nasty juice will post more. As i find them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-H735 using Tapatalk


I must say I love the English used in this form. You can tell a fake by it's "ulgy" box shape?

Not trying to mock them, their English is certainly a lot better than my Filipino, but I'm not running an international business either.


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## Dela Rey Steyn

People still at it, selling fakes, damn i hate these fake juices

Reactions: Like 1


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## jm10

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dela Rey Steyn

jm10 said:


> View attachment 147178
> View attachment 147179
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Saw that one as well, these people have no shame


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## jm10

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> Saw that one as well, these people have no shame



Its mainly these Chinese rip of companies that are supplying them that are to blame, the Chinese will own SA in a few years so their is very little we can do but spread the word. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

The juices are sold at a wholesale price of r30 for 50 ml at china town and this guy is selling it for r120 !! Almost a 300% profit ! Why do I have a conscience


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## Modyrts

Just gonna put it out there 

Friend of mine bought a fake nasty juice 


It tasted like i was vaping petrol and it destroyed my coils


I dont use knock off juices anymore

Reactions: Informative 1


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## VapeFTW

Some rules to follow when purchasing e-liquid that I have come across. 
1. If it's not just a Vape Shop (meaning they sell phones, electronics, clothes, food etc) then their juices are fake.
2. Any fleamarkets, corner shops, china-malls, wholesale places sell Fake juices.
3. The price will give it away, as they usually sell 60ml or 100ml for 80-120 Rand. (But some places are getting smart about this and increasing prices to mimic actual prices)
4. The nicotine content, 99.99% of fake juices are marked as 3mg, usually if you purchase e-juice at a proper Vape Shop you will have a choice between different nicotine content eg. 3 6 or 0 mg. 
5. The display of the juices. They will usually just put 100 or so juices on a table where you can't see the labels so you have to pick them up individually and see what they have. There is no order at all. 
6. If the person who is selling the juices has no idea what they are talking about, or don't even vape themselves, then they are usually selling fake products to make a quick buck. 
7. The taste of the juice, (if you ever buy fake juice by accident) you will have a weird taste in your mouth, the flavour will actually be off putting and there will usually be no nicotine even though it states 3mg. 

Best advice is to find a Vape Shop (that only sell vape gear and liquids) in your area that either make their own E-liquids, or sell local juices where you can pick the nicotine strength. It will definitely be more expensive but the taste and pleasure it will give you is definitely worth the extra money. And also you never know what you are actually vaping with the fake juices. 

Sorry for the long post. 

Sent from my CAG-L02 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Winner 2 | Informative 1


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## ARYANTO

.Best give away - taste like dishwasher!

Reactions: Like 1


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