# MTL eliquid ... What are the secrets to creating that "thick" rich desert flavour



## Intuthu Kagesi (30/11/20)

What are the secrets to creating that thick and rich MTL flavour that commercial desert flavours seem to share ... my eliquids by comparison are almost thin and watered down.
My flavour bias is towards deserts, with a splash of the ol' RY4

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## CJB85 (30/11/20)

Following this closely, because simply bumping up %'s on DL liquids and mixing at 50/50 doesn't seem to automatically translate into a good MTL liquid.
When you ask about % adjustments online, you get answers varying all the way from nothing, up to double the %...

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## Intuthu Kagesi (30/11/20)

CJB85 said:


> Following this closely, because simply bumping up %'s on DL liquids and mixing at 50/50 doesn't seem to automatically translate into a good MTL liquid.
> When you ask about % adjustments online, you get answers varying all the way from nothing, up to double the %...



Agreed CJB85 ... the advice received to date has been to simply? increase flavour between 10 and 20% moving from DL to MTL, and in my experience, it's still a 'thin' flavour

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## Stranger (30/11/20)

I found when I started DIY, I forgot all about adjusting the VG/PG ratio to accommodate the PG flavorings. I was using pre made 70/30 pre mix 

I don't do tobacco's but I love my banana custards, also was a bit "thin" as you say. I found Meringue helped to thicken it out. I have also been trying a couple of "crusts". Graham cracker and cheesecake crust also seem to make the vape more dense. They both have a dominant flavour and you don't need much.

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## Puff the Magic Dragon (30/11/20)

You could try these from Wayne (DiyorDie)



I would advise you to go to his website where you can see his flavour notes for these and other recipes. 

https://diyordievaping.com/

I like many of his juices. My favourite is Obsidian which includes RY4. You can get his one-shots at BLCK or mix your own as he has kindly given us the recipes of some of the one-shots.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (30/11/20)

Stranger said:


> I found when I started DIY, I forgot all about adjusting the VG/PG ratio to accommodate the PG flavorings. I was using pre made 70/30 pre mix
> 
> I don't do tobacco's but I love my banana custards, also was a bit "thin" as you say. I found Meringue helped to thicken it out. I have also been trying a couple of "crusts". Graham cracker and cheesecake crust also seem to make the vape more dense. They both have a dominant flavour and you don't need much.



Thanks for this Stranger ... What %'s of Meringue and or Graham Crackers would you recommend as an addition to an existing recipe? also:
Would any of the milks, creams and or custards also help in this regard?

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## Stranger (30/11/20)

If you do the back of the thumb taste test, you will find the crackers to have a strong taste to them. In a 50 ml I am using 0.5% . The meringue sweetens the mix a bit and I can go up to 1-2% there. Vanilla custard also has a strong flavour and I find if I go too much with this it overpowers the other flavours so rarely more than 1%, usually around .75%. I find that banana and custard compliment and balance each other very well.
Banana is not strong and I can 3-4%. Strangely and I know a lot of people don't use it, but sour brings out the banana flavour.

The other flavour that I use in very small quantity but does add to my deserts is Raisin. Also very strong so used in small %. A mate of mine who uses an Aegis with disposable pods was struggling with the tobacco flavours and said they all taste bitter. He tried the Raisin, just a few drops and said that solved the bitter problem whilst hardly tasting it.

Please take all this with a pinch of salt, these are just my findings and are subjective. Bear in mind that I do two things. I build coils for my mechs and try to match the juice to the coil build. If I build around 0.2 I find any sweetner to offer a caramelized taste that does not happen at 0.4

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## Intuthu Kagesi (30/11/20)

Stranger said:


> If you do the back of the thumb taste test, you will find the crackers to have a strong taste to them. In a 50 ml I am using 0.5% . The meringue sweetens the mix a bit and I can go up to 1-2% there. Vanilla custard also has a strong flavour and I find if I go too much with this it overpowers the other flavours so rarely more than 1%, usually around .75%. I find that banana and custard compliment and balance each other very well.
> Banana is not strong and I can 3-4%. Strangely and I know a lot of people don't use it, but sour brings out the banana flavour.
> 
> The other flavour that I use in very small quantity but does add to my deserts is Raisin. Also very strong so used in small %. A mate of mine who uses an Aegis with disposable pods was struggling with the tobacco flavours and said they all taste bitter. He tried the Raisin, just a few drops and said that solved the bitter problem whilst hardly tasting it.
> ...



Thanks so much ... I acknowledge the very nature of my request is subjective, however, as the commercial MTL juice guys come closer to what I like than I do, I'm very open to suggestion from others DIY experimentation. Certainly you've already opened up some possibilities of flavours I wouldn't normally have included in my 'war chest'.

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## Stranger (30/11/20)

I myself have asked why do some juice perform better at higher W and some at lower. In MTL and a 50/50 juice and using PG based flavours, you would think that it would be easier than juices for DTL. I found the opposite. When I was mixing for MTL I was using much higher percentages to get my "flavour". Most of my MTL coils were around the 1.2 to 1.5 range and low W. If I used the same mix even with low nic in DTL mode I found them over powering.

This leads me to think on how the rate of burn effects how the juice releases the flavours.

My ADV for RDL is
70/30 3% nic
Arctic menthol 2.5%
Peppermint 1.5%
Spearmint 1%
WS23 1%

.4 coil @22W

Average draw time is around 4 sec. This has lots of flavour and cool and I can use this all day and all night, but ...................

I can not put this in a dripper or RDA on a mech. Even with the same 0.4 ohms, it will give me around 35 W and 10 amps and is akin to putting a whole bag of Fisherman's friends in your mouth at the same time

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## CJB85 (30/11/20)

Stranger said:


> I can not put this in a dripper or RDA on a mech. Even with the same 0.4 ohms, it will give me around 35 W and 10 amps and is akin to putting a whole bag of Fisherman's friends in your mouth at the same time



It makes you drool and talk funny?

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## Stranger (30/11/20)

No man, that was the rum and raisin that I tried.

perfect clone of Vicks vapour rub.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (30/11/20)

Stranger said:


> I myself have asked why do some juice perform better at higher W and some at lower. In MTL and a 50/50 juice and using PG based flavours, you would think that it would be easier than juices for DTL. I found the opposite. When I was mixing for MTL I was using much higher percentages to get my "flavour". Most of my MTL coils were around the 1.2 to 1.5 range and low W. If I used the same mix even with low nic in DTL mode I found them over powering.
> 
> This leads me to think on how the rate of burn effects how the juice releases the flavours.
> 
> ...



I think we're saying the same thing here Stranger ... If I use one of my MTL juices in a sub ohm dripper, the flavour(s) are overpowering, proving that MTL requires a greater flavour concentration.
Certainly trying out commercial DL liquids, and comparing them to commercial MTL liquids, am of the opinion that most? published eliquid recipe's, (including some one shots), are intended for DL, which is where my DIY quest began ... I have subsequently increased the flavour percentages as advised, by some 20%, and my MTL eliquids are still way off the mark. The only way I know of how to express the difference between my renditions and commercial MTL eliquids, would be to refer to their flavours as a thicker and richer flavours, vs. my watered down attempts.

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## Stranger (1/12/20)

I am also of the opinion that the nic also plays a part. My thoughts are that PG nic should be used for MTL. We have been told many times that PG carries the flavour better. To my mind that means that your 50% PG should include both your Nic and flavours.

For DTL VG Nic works better to maintain or reach that 70/30 or 80/20.

When you think about it the volume of vapour that passes over your receptors whether on the tongue or up the nose, is far greater DTL than MTL. It make sense then that we need more flavour particles in less volume of vapor to get a decent flavour from it.

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## Intuthu Kagesi (1/12/20)

Stranger said:


> I am also of the opinion that the nic also plays a part. My thoughts are that PG nic should be used for MTL. We have been told many times that PG carries the flavour better. To my mind that means that your 50% PG should include both your Nic and flavours.
> 
> For DTL VG Nic works better to maintain or reach that 70/30 or 80/20.
> 
> When you think about it the volume of vapour that passes over your receptors whether on the tongue or up the nose, is far greater DTL than MTL. It make sense then that we need more flavour particles in less volume of vapor to get a decent flavour from it.



Agreed ... The physical volume of vapour "up the nose" is greater with DTL vs. a greater concentration of flavour "up the nose" with MTL.

As to the 50% of VG carrying the nic and flavour ... I'm assuming you're referring to calculation of total %'s, as all my flavours are PG bound and whilst I have experimented with both PG and VG nic, (Clyronix), have found no discernable difference in flavour(s) ... or in this case, depth of flavour(s).


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## Stranger (1/12/20)

Just a thought that the flavour might infuse better into the PG nic than the VG nic, if you get my meaning. For MTL I used to mix that way. The PG nic and the flavours, then add whatever PG and VG as required.

With DTL I use an 80/20 pre mix to get close to a 70/30 and a 70/30 pre mix that usually gets me closer to a 63/37


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## Intuthu Kagesi (1/12/20)

Stranger said:


> Just a thought that the flavour might infuse better into the PG nic than the VG nic, if you get my meaning. For MTL I used to mix that way. The PG nic and the flavours, then add whatever PG and VG as required.
> 
> With DTL I use an 80/20 pre mix to get close to a 70/30 and a 70/30 pre mix that usually gets me closer to a 63/37


Interesting hypothesis ... I haven't the depth of experience to pass comment.
As to the %'s ... I have both PG and VG nic on hand specifically for balancing the ratio as, like you, I play around with DL, RDL, and MTL devices, albeit that my favourites are MTL

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## Stranger (2/12/20)

Last night I took my ADV as above and looked at my carry around that I had in my hand the whole day. Puma mod, Dvarw clone 0.4 @22 W

I took my Crea squonk and Recurve dual and as it needed a pit stop I wrapped 2 x single core clapton 24/36 aimed at 0.2 for the pair and got it at 7.5 wraps each.

Took the same ADV and put in the squonk. Did any of you guys see the vid where they did the menthol test (watch it, it is so fun)



Weeeeelllll , I just replicated that. The vapour was so dense that even my eyes burned, the dog walked out the room and the wife checked I had not nicked the After dinner mints she had stashed for Xmas.

This is also something that I have noticed on my Loop with my Banana custards and Lemon meringue pie. Very short draw producing very thick vapor.

So now I am convinced that the maths has a great deal to do with this.

18650 battery at 3.7 V, 0.2 coils. That is 68 W and 18 amps. Vastly different from the regulated Puma.

MTL at around 1.0 Ohm is going to give a vastly different rate of burn on how the juice is vaporized. It is going to be slower regardless of how quick the mod fires. This leads me to the conclusion that your Ohms settings will also influence the "denseness" of the vapor.

It may be worth while lowering the Ohms and trying the same juice in MTL mode, regardless if you have gone below 1 Ohm and are technically in sub ohm territory.

My mates who only MTL using an Aegis and disposable tanks are running (Utilizes Mystique Mesh Coil 0.15ohm Atomizer Head (40 - 70W)

0.15 .... hells bells that is the lowest I ever go for my mechs

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## Intuthu Kagesi (2/12/20)

Stranger said:


> Last night I took my ADV as above and looked at my carry around that I had in my hand the whole day. Puma mod, Dvarw clone 0.4 @22 W
> 
> I took my Crea squonk and Recurve dual and as it needed a pit stop I wrapped 2 x single core clapton 24/36 aimed at 0.2 for the pair and got it at 7.5 wraps each.
> 
> ...




Were you a comedian in a previous life?  ... Love your humour ... and I gather you like living on the limit too  ... O.15 Ohm load on a Mech ... erm ... that's 24.67 Amps #just saying

I can't argue that lowering your coil, (mesh), resistance also improves the MTL experience. I run 0.3 Ohm mesh in my 'Stealth', and the flavour is yum! ... however I do keep the power levels way lower than the 40 to 70W levels your mate vapes on ... in my case, more like 5 to 15W max

Back to the deeper / thicker flavour ... I did try two tests to existing juices earlier, one adding 1% marshmallow, and another adding 1% custard, and .... there's a definite improvement, so your earlier suggestion has merit, and is worth further investigation .... O ... and I generally add 'a splash' of menthol into my MTL, (measured in drops, not litres as you did above).

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## Stranger (3/12/20)

A comedian ... no, a husband a and a father yes. Been married for 41 years so if you do not develop a sense of humour you end up old and wrinkled before your time. 

Long live Golisi 35 and Samsung 40T and of course the good old 25R

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