# DIY is King, even on the BIG mountain



## Rude Rudi (28/10/16)

So, before I went on my Kilimanjaro adventure, I thought I would do the honorable thing and purchase some local juice to 'show off' to the rest of the expedition as well of the Tanzanian folk, who I soon discovered had never seen anyone make magic with smoke like I did. I was the talk of the town/village/local bars for days and some was convinced that I possessed special powers! It is rather difficult to explain to local villagers (who only speak Swahili) the basics of vaping by not sounding like a complete crock-pot.

Anyways - I splashed out just over R500 on two bottles of top selling local brands - a 100ml of a certain pear and caramel Facebook favorite (my nemesis) as well as a passion fruit lemonade. I almost fainted when I actually paid hard cash for juice as I have not bought any name brand juice for months. I must say that I was rather disappointed with the pear offering at just on R350, which I could have replicated at about R70. The passion fruit was decent, but hell, the prices are rather steep after DIY'ing for about 6 months. 

I can honestly say that my creations surpassed both store bought commercial offerings in terms of taste, complexity, price, packaging (unicorn bottle for ease of traveling) and overall value. It is not that I am a mixologist by any stretch of the imagination but by mixing some recipes found on this forum at the fraction of the price makes far more sense to me. I know the pro's and cons of DIY vs commercial have been discussed ad nauseam but for the love of fused claptons, how does one justify these prices? 

After the second day on the big mountain, I whipped out my own juice and must say that I felt satisfied...the show and tell of DIY juice far surpassed that of the fancy labeled store bought offering.

I am not naive and fully understand the business of making profit, recipe development, mark ups, transport, packaging, labeling, dog food and nappy price escalations but good ohm, I am glad that I DIY!! 

I will never complain about the price of Cap vanilla custard again...

DIY is king, even on the BIG mountain...

Amen




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Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 3 | Winner 6


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## Huffapuff (28/10/16)

I couldn't agree more - I freak out when 30ml costs me R25!

Wayne is especially guilty of "expensive" recipes

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Naz (28/10/16)

Agreed 100%. I have not bought commercial e liquid in months. DIY rules.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Raindance (28/10/16)

Due to my uniquely privileged introduction to vaping (Friends living with me for a while paying forward not only hardware but DIY skills as well), I have never actually bought juice. Well, I lie, exactly two bottles of "Papa Smurf" just to add some variety to my then rather limited repertoire of home brew. Come to think of it, not much has changed in that respect.

This post now makes me wonder how my concoctions compare with what is out there on the shelves. I could be missing out a lot but with my daily juice consumption sitting at 20 to 30 ml, it seems I am better off not knowing.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## RichJB (28/10/16)

The only commercial juices I ever bought were some 10ml bottles of 18-24mg VaporFi juices for my cigalike that I started on. But I've never bought an actual vape juice as in a 30ml 3mg bottle of juice. I have received some free for various reasons and I've enjoyed those I've received. But I'd say that 98% of what I've vaped has been my own juices.

I guess everybody would say the same but I think I came into vaping at exactly the right time, just as the dual-battery mods and 24mm+ tanks were starting to take off. I think I also made the right decisions at the right time. I bought exactly six coils in my vaping career - and I still have four of them unused in their box, heh. So I went into rebuilding coils and making my own juice very quickly. I honestly don't know how anybody can go exclusively with stock coils and commercial juices. The cost is crippling.

I started DIY in May. Yes, I've spent a lot on it so far to build up my concentrate stock. But I've still got most of what I bought. I still haven't finished any single bottle of concentrate. I saw today that my TFA Cheesecake GC, Vanilla Swirl, Strawberry Ripe and VBIC are all getting a bit low and I will have to replace quite soon. Others, like FA Cardamom and Anise, will last me for years yet if they don't go vrot. 

With the wire, cotton and concentrates I have, I reckon I could vape for the next three years and all it would cost me would be occasional topping up with nic, VG and PG. But that's about R250 for all three and lasts me for months. Of course, I won't do that, I'll keep building up my concentrate stock. But still, I could vape on almost no budget now if I needed to.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when some big corporate heavy hitters enter the juice market. Atm it's fine, the industry is just an unregulated free-for-all and everybody is doing their own thing. Most of the commercial juice makers started off as DIYers anyway so they know where the DIY scene is coming from. But big corporates won't. Their accountants will look at the potential profits leaking away via DIY and will bleed out of their eyeballs. They'll pull some stunt to try and have DIY outlawed. You can bank on it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## rogue zombie (28/10/16)

I definitely have acquired some mixes that I prefer to so, so much commercial. And a friend's visit from Switzerland allowed me recently to sample some popular juices from EU, all of which left me feeling great about my collection of recipes.

There are however some local juices that still blow my mind. Paulies, MMM and Orion have some of my very favourite juices still. Plus they mix to my preferred style - 70VG and higher, stunning flavour profiles and they don't over-flavour. 

But ya, best thing I could've done was DIY, and working through all the dissapointment of making so many crap juices. I now seldomly have to chuck a juice out.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Caveman (28/10/16)

Very true. I haven't bought any new juices for months either. The other day I bought some Apple Pie from OFE as I had heard very good things about it. All I taste is sweet. It's like vaping sugar water with a hint of apple. I reckon that DIY'ing has made me much more sensitive to the use of additives and sweeteners as well. 

@RichJB count yourself lucky that you still have all your concentrates.. Those of us who smash 30ml a day end up spending a fair amount more. Nothing close to what the commercial juices cost tho. I almost have a standing order month on month with BlckVapour for my ADV, and I tend to agree with your sentiment that big corporate will attempt to outlaw DIY.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB (28/10/16)

Well, I look at it this way:
30ml of commercial juice per day = +/-R150 per day or R1050 per week.
Which would = around 24 x 10ml concentrates from Richio, assuming you get some Inw and Cap among them.
24 concentrates a week will catapult you beyond the First Rule of DIY quite quickly. Well, OK, maybe not, there is NO getting around the First Rule of DIY.  But still, you'd have a cr@p-ton of concentrates.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Caveman (28/10/16)

RichJB said:


> Well, I look at it this way:
> 30ml of commercial juice per day = +/-R150 per day or R1050 per week.
> Which would = around 24 x 10ml concentrates from Richio, assuming you get some Inw and Cap among them.
> 24 concentrates a week will catapult you beyond the First Rule of DIY quite quickly. Well, OK, maybe not, there is NO getting around the First Rule of DIY.  But still, you'd have a cr@p-ton of concentrates.


haha very true, ain't no getting around that rule. I have just shy of 100 concentrates now and I still fall short due to the first rule more often than not

Reactions: Can relate 1


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## Huffapuff (28/10/16)

Caveman said:


> and I tend to agree with your sentiment that big corporate will attempt to outlaw DIY.



An interesting point you and @RichJB have raised here. As much as I like the idea of vaping hitting the mainstream and getting more people off the stinkies, I also like the fact that currently it's this small thing that most people don't really know about. 

Once it starts to get big it'll probably either end up like the States and the FDA, or worse - get taken over by suits and turned into something ugly.

In this light I think us DIYers should stop singing the praises of mixing your own juices - can you imagine how hard it'll be to find stock when everyone is buying concentrates and bottles etc?!

From now on I'm going to start spreading the word about how difficult it is to DIY and how crap the juices turn out

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB (28/10/16)

I have 108 concentrates now but I'm starting to slow down and become a lot more selective in what I make. Fortunately I jumped on the HIC bandwagon very early and most of my concentrates are from FA. That is great because I can make almost everything that HIC and Shaner concoct. And FA can be used for almost anything else as well.

I almost jumped on the Wayne bandwagon too but I've reined myself in. He just has too many once-off flavours. Sorry Wayne but I'm not buying FW Creme de Menthe to make Cuprian - because Cuprian is the only top recipe I've seen that uses it. Apple Buttah which won his mixing competition uses Cap Butter Cream which I will never use in anything but Apple Buttah. NotCharlesManson has a Funfetti clone that uses FW Cake Batter Dip. Again, I'll never use that in anything else so I'll give it a miss. I think one has to be a bit ruthless in order to preserve one's sanity.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Average vapor Joe (29/10/16)

what are your guys personal favourite recipes?


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## Puff the Magic Dragon (29/10/16)

I couldn't agree more. Well said @Rude Rudi and others. I could afford the commercial juices, but as a matter of principle I HATE being ripped off (plus I enjoy the DIYing hobby). We buy all our DIY ingredients at retail prices and still save a small fortune. Commercial juice manufacturers buy at vastly reduced prices, and retail at an enormous profit. Don't get me wrong, a fair profit is what makes the world go around, but crazy profit is just that...crazy.

Think about what an atty cost two years ago. The clone wars showed what they should cost, and the prices of authentics have dropped.

Another thought. Have you noticed that vendors and juice manufacturers are scarce when such matters are discussed ?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## RichJB (29/10/16)

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> Have you noticed that vendors and juice manufacturers are scarce when such matters are discussed ?



Them not being allowed to discuss their products in the general forums might explain that. 



Average vapor Joe said:


> what are your guys personal favourite recipes?



As much as it pains me to say it - Strawberry Cheesecake is the best juice I've tasted so far. My palate is very unrefined, I just don't get the top juices. I read the notes, try the juice, and am left going "Huh?" I'm currently vaping Bronuts. It's nice but it's darkish chocolate on a bun. Once it's finished, I'm not going to be champing at the bit to make more. 

When Jordan from New Amsterdam Vape was on Wayne's podcast, he said he'd gone back to just mixing up Strawberry Ripe on its own. That mirrors my feelings. I'm just not getting enough difference between the simple two-ingredient recipes and the top eight-ingredient multi-layered recipes to warrant the hype. I mixed up one of Wayne's Strawberry Ice Cream rererereremixes recently. I might as well have made Mustard Milk. I'm just getting strawberry dairy from both. It will make a huge difference to Wayne's palate, not to mine.

This is why I've reined myself in on concentrates as well. I think there is too much hype in the juice industry, both commercial and DIY. Wayne and his judges raved on and on about Goldfish's Apple Buttah, saying they knew the competition was over the moment they tried the juice. They do a Rip Trippers job of hyping and selling the recipe. I know already I'll just get a pleasant creamy buttery apple from it. I'll vape 30ml of it, it'll be nice but I won't feel that I'm missing anything by not mixing it up again. And then I'll be stuck with a nearly full bottle of Cap Butter Cream which I won't use in anything else. I'm not falling for that anymore.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 5 | Thanks 1


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## Jones (29/10/16)

Huffapuff said:


> In this light I think us DIYers should stop singing the praises of mixing your own juices - can you imagine how hard it'll be to find stock when everyone is buying concentrates and bottles etc?!



DIY sucks people just don't even try it ..................que the evil laugh mmmwwaaahahahaa

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## Rude Rudi (29/10/16)

RichJB said:


> That mirrors my feelings. I'm just not getting enough difference between the simple two-ingredient recipes and the top eight-ingredient multi-layered recipes to warrant the hype.



Exactly. I made HIC's CARAMEL EGG NOG this morning = 2 ingredients and it's delicious - even as a shake and vape!

2% FA Vienna Cream
1% FA Caramel

I upped it to 3 and 1.5 as suggested and I have almost finished 30mls...

More info here:
http://vapingunderground.com/threads/hics-caramel-egg-nog.1867/




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## craigb (29/10/16)

RichJB said:


> I'm just not getting enough difference between the simple two-ingredient recipes and the top eight-ingredient multi-layered recipes to warrant the hype.



Like each class of recipe (dessert, drink, etc) gets its own thread, perhaps there should also be a two ingredient thread. First time I vape something new I pick up on many of its under and overtones but by the 5th or 6th hit most of them are gone.

In the same way you start the evening drinking johnny walker then after the second glass switch to first watch, they all taste the same by then.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## SAVaper (29/10/16)

DIY is tops.
After reading the other comments I agree with most. I am also starting to be a lot more selective in my flavour purchases.
But I have found that I get tired of the same juice very quickly. That is why I all ready have 6 recipes that I always mix. I then switch between them regularly.


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## Monkey.D.Luffy (29/10/16)

craigb said:


> Like each class of recipe (dessert, drink, etc) gets its own thread, perhaps there should also be a two ingredient thread. First time I vape something new I pick up on many of its under and overtones but by the 5th or 6th hit most of them are gone.
> 
> In the same way you start the evening drinking johnny walker then after the second glass switch to first watch, they all taste the same by then.


I'm looking at starting DIY and I think a two ingredient thread would help me alot. I don't want to buy 8 concentrates only to realise I'm wasting my time. I have an unrefined pallet and can mostly two flavours and not the rest. 

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## craigb (29/10/16)

Monkey.D.Luffy said:


> I'm looking at starting DIY and I think a two ingredient thread would help me alot. I don't want to buy 8 concentrates only to realise I'm wasting my time. I have an unrefined pallet and can mostly two flavours and not the rest.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


Start anyway. Lots of the flavours seem to work well on their own. I got three concentrates with my first order and 2 of them are instant hits for me

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strontium (29/10/16)

RichJB said:


> Them not being allowed to discuss their products in the general forums might explain that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What recipe do you use for the strawberry cheesecake? I can't get enough of that flavour.


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## RichJB (29/10/16)

@Monkey.D.Luffy, head on over to the Beginner's thread at ELR. There are some very good two- and three-ingredient recipes there.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Andre (29/10/16)

Rude Rudi said:


> Exactly. I made HIC's CARAMEL EGG NOG this morning = 2 ingredients and it's delicious - even as a shake and vape!
> 
> 2% FA Vienna Cream
> 1% FA Caramel
> ...


I was looking at that one just the other day, was seriously pondering mixing it, but decided against. Now I shall have to revisit. Thanks for your feedback.


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## RichJB (29/10/16)

Strontium said:


> What recipe do you use for the strawberry cheesecake? I can't get enough of that flavour.



The classic one:
10% TFA Strawberry Ripe
6% TFA Cheesecake with Graham Crust

Some say that the Ripe fades quickly and advocate dropping the percentage while adding some Cap Sweet Strawberry, TFA Dragonfruit or Ethyl Maltol to help the Ripe retain its flavour. It didn't fade noticeably for me.

There are also possibly updated versions of this recipe which drop those percentages and then add in some other ingredients. A lot of folks these days would use 4% Ripe 4% Cap Sweet Strawberry instead of just 10% Ripe. It drops the total Strawb percentage by 2 without losing a bunch of flavour. So experiment with different ones. But the original worked well for me. I am disinclined to change it.

I mixed up all of Wayne's Strawberry recipes and, despite him using way more ingredients and accents and layers and whatnot, none of them worked as well for me as this one. That might cause top mixers to be aghast but I can only be honest. My palate is not nearly as refined as Wayne's. He is doing things that don't register for me, and this simpler one works better imho.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 2


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## Strontium (29/10/16)

Mixing it up as we speak, shot boet


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## Soutie (29/10/16)

I'll give HIC this, he has a lot of simple recipes. They have been hit and miss for me though but the are all pretty good value for money. 

I also agree that simpler is better on occasion. Sure you want the depth and complexity, but a lot of the concentrates coming out now days have their own complexity so you really don't need 10 flavours to have a recipe be yum, and it's easy to have those flavours detract or even get lost in the final product.


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## Effjh (29/10/16)

RichJB said:


> I mixed up all of Wayne's Strawberry recipes and, despite him using way more ingredients and accents and layers and whatnot, none of them worked as well for me as this one. That might cause top mixers to be aghast but I can only be honest. My palate is not nearly as refined as Wayne's. He is doing things that don't register for me, and this simpler one works better imho.



I think the gear one uses to vape on plays a bigger part than we realise in how we perceive flavours. Is it possible that the atty's/tempreture/builds etc that he vapes on gives a better representation of what he tried to achieve with his recipes than what you might experience on your personally preferred set up?

I know for me personally, I enjoy certain flavours more in certain set ups and some provide a more "open" experience (can taste and identify all the different notes), while others give a more "focussed" experience (main profiles and flavour intensity).

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## RichJB (29/10/16)

Yes, that's a good point, @Effjh. I did initially do a lot of temp testing and fiddling around to see what I could get out of my various atties. My final choices might not give the best flavour representations but they are the easiest and most comfortable for me to vape. 

I might have given the impression that I am unhappy with some juices. I'm not. Bronuts and all Wayne's other juices have been fine for me, I'll vape them no problem and they're tasty. It's just that they don't do anything more for me than the simpler and less heralded recipes.

I've always had a poor sense of smell/taste. I watch Vaping Bogan's reviews where he cracks open a frostie and says "Oooh, subtle notes of chocolate and maybe a bit of vanilla in the background there". And I know darn well that if I drank the same beer, it would just taste like most other lagers to me. I can't detect notes like that.

It's both a curse and a blessing. It means I'll never be a connoisseur of wine or food or vape juices or anything else. But it also means I'm not fussy. I eat whatever is put in front of me, and never have problems with taste. I read about other people's experiences with throat hit and peppery nic and sinuses and heartburn and Lord knows what else and I've never had anything like that. Due to my leaden senses, I miss the best of what vaping offers. But I also miss the worst. Really pungent perfumey concentrates are the only thing that has ever bothered me in vaping.

Reactions: Like 6 | Can relate 2


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## Daniel (30/10/16)

Time to revisit this DIY thing... Simple two flavour recipes seems the way to go what's a good Menthol vape taking note not a huge fan of menthol but think strawberry and menthol might work....

Reactions: Like 2


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## Lord Vetinari (30/10/16)

DIY for ADV, a bottle of something different as a treat or just a change. Odd import here and there back when I could find Witchers Brew's Blackbird.


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## Lord Vetinari (30/10/16)

RichJB said:


> I have 108 concentrates now but I'm starting to slow down and become a lot more selective in what I make. Fortunately I jumped on the HIC bandwagon very early and most of my concentrates are from FA. That is great because I can make almost everything that HIC and Shaner concoct. And FA can be used for almost anything else as well.
> 
> I almost jumped on the Wayne bandwagon too but I've reined myself in. He just has too many once-off flavours. Sorry Wayne but I'm not buying FW Creme de Menthe to make Cuprian - because Cuprian is the only top recipe I've seen that uses it. Apple Buttah which won his mixing competition uses Cap Butter Cream which I will never use in anything but Apple Buttah. NotCharlesManson has a Funfetti clone that uses FW Cake Batter Dip. Again, I'll never use that in anything else so I'll give it a miss. I think one has to be a bit ruthless in order to preserve one's sanity.


Oh give CAP Butter Cream a go you will really like it. I use it instead of Bavarian Cream if there is any kind of crust or bakery kind of element it deepens the texture a little and does not leave that sligjtly dry after taste Bavarian Cream does. The butter note is very mellow and quite useful. It makes for some REALLY nice smelling juices also I dig the smell a lot. Maybe not the best pairing with fruits but you wont waste money on trying a 10ml.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## Strontium (30/10/16)

The prices of juices is beyond ludicrous, I get that everyone needs to make a profit but still. I try diy most of my juices but do have one supplier that I buy from fairly regularly but he is three times cheaper than all the other guys and his stuff is top notch so far.


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## Rob Fisher (30/10/16)

That's the beauty of the free market system... we are free to choose!

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3 | Winner 2


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