# Do we have a chance?



## KZOR

I hope it is my imagination but I am have been noticing some serious "clicks" in this forum.
I had my suspicions but I just bought some gear from a fellow forum member and we had a interesting chat.
He had his own juice line and some of his remnant bottles are even still stocked at some vendors.
I informed him of how hard it is to get a brand off the floor and he said that I might as well give up like he did.
I noticed certain brands being pushed by high profile members and also posts of frequent visits to the owners of well-known brands.
I even dropped a batch off at a vendor more than a month ago and was promised feedback which has not happened as of yet.
The only reason why this bothers me as that I was told by a high ranker that I would receive some assistance after Vapecon and that never happened.

I know CPT has always sucked on the small teet since I joined but that was normal since 95% of members and activities are all north of us.

Could someone please honestly answer me this ............ should I leave everything and stick to making for myself and friends (and save R200 a month as a non-supporting vendor) or is there honestly no pushing of certain brands and all is pure imaginative speculation?

Do small fry like myself stand a chance or are the bonds between admin staff and established vendors too strong?


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## Glytch

I suppose it's like any other business: networking is key. It's who you know. I guess your R200 pm essentially gets you a voice on the site. Best of luck!

Also perhaps it's better to take it up with the admins in private?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Clouds4Days

KZOR said:


> I hope it is my imagination but I am have been noticing some serious "clicks" in this forum.
> I had my suspicions but I just bought some gear from a fellow forum member and we had a interesting chat.
> He had his own juice line and some his remnant bottles are even still stocked at some vendors.
> I informed him of how hard it is to get a brand off the floor and he said that I might as well give up like he did.
> I noticed certain brands being pushed by high profile members and also posts of frequent visits to the owners of well-known brands.
> I even dropped a batch off at a vendor more than a month ago and was promised feedback which has not happened as of yet.
> The only reason why this bothers me as that I was told by a high ranker that I would receive some assistance after Vapecon and that never happened.
> 
> I know CPT has always sucked on the small teet since I joined but that was normal since 95% of members and activities are all north of us.
> 
> Could someone please honestly answer me this ............ should I leave everything and stick to making for myself and friends (and save R200 a month as a non-supporting vendor) or is there honestly no pushing of certain brands and all is pure imaginative speculation?
> 
> Do small fry like myself stand a chance or are the bonds between admin staff and established vendors too strong?




Hey bud,

You can only try, but problem ive seen is everyone is trying to jump on the vape wagon and get involved in something (including myself) ive seen so many new supporting vendors pop up weekly its not even funny.

Shops (online and B&m) can not afford to stock every single persons juice line but that does not mean you shouldnt try get in.

I think the problem is especially with juices is-
(These are only examples)
What makes your strawberry milkshake diffrent from the other 20 already out

In order to get in the market it needs to be something diffrent otherwise its just anothet number in the field.

Good luck brother

Reactions: Like 2 | Useful 1


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## Rob Fisher

@KZOR my number one main juice supplier is in CT... so I don't for one second think CT sucks the hind one...



And to answer your question... there are so many juice makers these days and there are those juice makers that have been around since the early days and have been a part of the vape scene for a long time... they have sponsored events... given prizes and paid a lot of dues... and hence the people tend to gravitate towards them obviously... there will always be groups and "clicks"... it's human nature...

I taste a lot of local juices and with my philistine taste buds very few ever get a reorder because my CT supplier really hits the spot for me...

The only way to break into the lucrative juice market is to participate and pay your dues and most important produce a really good juice! But to expect to become a major juice maker by paying your vendor fees of R200 for a couple of months is more than a little optimistic.

Juice Marketing 101
1. Great packaging and labelling
2. Interesting and functional bottles
3. Juice giveaways and competitions in your forum.
4. Sponsorship of events
5. Attend vape meets and have samples
6. Get involved
7. Send your juice to some of the personalities and Youtube reviewers

PS I went to look at the vendors list now to go and check how well your marketing has been done in your forum and for the life of my I can't think of what vendor you are? You need to do a lot more marketing... you have a lot of work to do marketing wise...

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 9


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## Vape_r

I honestly agree with @Rob Fisher here, I personally didn't even know that you had a juice line. Here on the forum you have the platform to advertise your products. Use it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Rob Fisher

And just another thought on the issue... there are so many new juice makers popping up all the time and a lot of the juices being tested are kak... so people are getting really tired of spending R150 on a new juice and finding out it's not vapable and they have wasted thier hard earned cash... so what do they do next time? They stick to thier tried and tested brands...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 7


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## KZOR

Thanks for the reply @Rob Fisher

1.) checked (Bottom's Up is a awesome name)
2.) checked (Easier to use than drippers)
3.) checked (made myself available as a sponsor but will try a comp or three  ) thanks for that great idea
4.) too small to do that atm
5.) checked (that is where I saw how many are into DIY)
6.) checked (I think I have replied and created a lot in 3 months)
7.) checked (i have sent to a few ....... need to send to more and will do)



Rob Fisher said:


> I can't think of what vendor you are


Would love to market more but I am only allowed to post in my own sub-forum concerning my brand.
A very minute amount of people actually go there.

I certainly do not expect to become a hit overnight and i totally believe in a long road to success.
My problem is that politics on the forum are not making things easier for the small guys like me.
Have received a few privates agreeing with me. That's all I wanted to know. 

I don't think I am going to get anywhere with this post. Sorry for bringing it up.
Could you please delete.


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## Clouds4Days

Rob Fisher said:


> And just another thought on the issue... there are so many new juice makers popping up all the time and a lot of the juices being tested are kak... so people are getting really tired of spending R150 on a new juice and finding out it's not vapable and they have wasted thier hard earned cash... so what do they do next time? They stick to thier tried and tested brands...



Totaly agree with you uncle @Rob Fisher 
So many new juice makers and everyone is selling it the same price as "premium juice" or R10/R20 cheaper .

Where is the business model to maybe come in at R100 get a name and then maybe charge the current local price.

Only person ive actualy seen come in and is not just throwing figures and hope people will buy is @YeOldeOke 
Who charges around R65 for a 30ml and around R95 for a 50ml (nic content adjusts price)

Example-
Everyone wants to make cash but
1 sale a week of R150 = R100 profit
10 sales @ R100 a week =R1000 = R500 profit


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## Rob Fisher

KZOR said:


> I don't think I am going to get anywhere with this post. Sorry for bringing it up.
> Could you please delete.



100% agree... will delete as requested.

Reactions: Like 1


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## KZOR

I expected that you would jump at the chance.


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## Rob Fisher

KZOR said:


> I certainly do not expect to become a hit overnight and i totally believe in a long road to success.
> My problem is that politics on the forum are not making things easier for the small guys like me.
> Have received a few privates agreeing with me. That's all I wanted to know.



Yes there may be "clicks" but nothing can beat producing a good juice... no "clicks" or "politics" will stop a good juice.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Rob Fisher

KZOR said:


> I expected that you would jump at the chance.



Nope I'm more than happy to leave this thread for general discussion... I find it interesting... let me know if you still want me to delete it because I'm happy to leave it right here.


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## KZOR

Rob Fisher said:


> Yes there may be "clicks"



Now that is all some of us wanted to hear.
I can now start working on an alternative route.
Thanks for being honest.


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## rogue zombie

I think it has nothing to do with location, more the proven few's reputations keeping them popular.

I personally am thinking, that every Tom, **** and Harry that finds a half-baked decent decipe, or makes one themselves, is putting out a juice line.

Me, personally, i dont care to spend R150 on 30mls of juice that maybe just tastes ike the masses. 

Sooooo, again personally, if I am going to spend money on juice, it best be special.

Plenty brands before yours have been drowned out by the "special" brands.

Put out something "special" to retailers, and they'll smell the money.

I just think at the moment, everything has been, so only the special will survive. The days of putting out "Bluerry Bliss" or "Strawberry Milkshake" are gone. 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 3


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## shaunnadan

hi @KZOR

In most hobbies, you will find cliques. a group of people who stick to what they know or what the "ring leader" tells them is GOOD.

Unfortunately, you can't get out of this and I've seen smaller juice makers crushed when their product is not what the rest of the group likes. there are groups of people who are influenced by "the big guns" and the like and it's easier to suck up to them and agree that "they" have the best juice in the hopes of a few freebies down the line for loyalty instead of taking a chance on something new and buying a bottle for themselves.

BUT ! it's not the end of the world.

find a Niche in the market and bottle it ! something that sets you apart from the rest and when people ask "have you tried the new .........." then people will be intrigued in what you have to offer and try it out.

I'll stand by the statement that "all politics are not bad" Most often "rivals" in any industry result in them pushing harder and the customer gets better pricing, service, and quality.

I'm my experience I've seen small vendors remain small vendors even after 2 years of work and I've seen new vendors become LEGENDS in the industry fairly quickly. 99% of the time it's down to their business model.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Rob Fisher

KZOR said:


> Now that is all some of us wanted to hear.
> I can now start working on an alternative route.
> Thanks for being honest.



I don't think honesty has anything to do with it... there are "clicks" in everything... even within clubs there are numerous clicks... likeminded people stick together... it's the way of the world... go to a church or a Mosque and there will be clicks... at work there are departmental clicks... I'm not sure why "clicks" are viewed as negative... it's simply people to like to spend time together. Jocks vs Nerds... Men vs Women... and the list of groups go on...

But we digress... back to juice marketing... put in the time and support and if you have a great juice it will be successful.


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## rogue zombie

And in terms of hardware, i also think new retailers must understand from a buyers point of view "what are you bringing to the game?"

If ive already spent R10K with Vape Club down the road, why should i spend R1k on a new mod with you? To save R50... probably not enough for me. I know the folk at VC who I have bought from for 3 years.

And believe me, I am in no way affilated with the Admin - if anything, I reckon they dont even like me - I can be a little 'rough round the edges.' 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1


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## shaunnadan

rogue zombie said:


> And in terms of hardware, i also think new retailers must understand from a buyers point of view "what are you bringing to the game?"
> 
> If ive already spent R10K with Vape Club down the road, why should i spend R1k on a new mod with you? To save R50... probably not enough for me. I know the folk at VC who I have bought from for 3 years.
> 
> And believe me, I am in no way affilated with the Admin - if anything, I reckon they dont even like me - I can be a little 'rough round the edges.'
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



we all love you @rogue zombie ! rough edges and all

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## rogue zombie

shaunnadan said:


> we all love you @rogue zombie ! rough edges and all


Lol... dont lie 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## shaunnadan

rogue zombie said:


> Lol... dont lie
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



i never lie on Sundays.....

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## Raindance

My buddy Darwin said it best. Survival of the fittest! Actually he meant survival of the most capable to adapt. I think there is a clue in there somewhere.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Feliks Karp

I feel for you, because you seem like some one that is obviously passionate about what he's trying to do, but man just look at the salt you've sprinkled all over the place. 

I'm going to be brutal here and straight forward, your flavours are nothing new, they don't pique my interest because I've seen them all before, your descriptions are lack luster - I don't feel your passion in them, they honestly read as though you made them up on the spot, and sure some "flavour profiles" are a tug and half, but it shows effort. Next up are your labels, they are completely unprofessional, you need to hire someone to do the design work or go get a template online, you could honestly have nectre of the gods in your bottles and I wouldn't part with what equates to like a third of a new RDA simply because it looks you hacked something up in Paint.

You seem blinded by emotional investment here. You reply with quips about "Bottoms up" being an "awesome name", honestly in my opinion its terrible, it's largely and has been for ages connected with downing your alcoholic drink, am I going to empty out the bottle upside down? Drink it? 


You have not done proper market research in to how to penetrate a fairly established market, end of story.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 3


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## rogue zombie

Raindance said:


> My buddy Darwin said it best. Survival of the fittest! Actually he meant survival of the most capable to adapt. I think there is a clue in there somewhere.


Yip, and the "vaper in the know market" in ZA is flooded right now.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Silver

KZOR said:


> I hope it is my imagination but I am have been noticing some serious "clicks" in this forum.
> I had my suspicions but I just bought some gear from a fellow forum member and we had a interesting chat.
> He had his own juice line and some of his remnant bottles are even still stocked at some vendors.
> I informed him of how hard it is to get a brand off the floor and he said that I might as well give up like he did.
> I noticed certain brands being pushed by high profile members and also posts of frequent visits to the owners of well-known brands.
> I even dropped a batch off at a vendor more than a month ago and was promised feedback which has not happened as of yet.
> The only reason why this bothers me as that I was told by a high ranker that I would receive some assistance after Vapecon and that never happened.
> 
> I know CPT has always sucked on the small teet since I joined but that was normal since 95% of members and activities are all north of us.
> 
> Could someone please honestly answer me this ............ should I leave everything and stick to making for myself and friends (and save R200 a month as a non-supporting vendor) or is there honestly no pushing of certain brands and all is pure imaginative speculation?
> 
> Do small fry like myself stand a chance or are the bonds between admin staff and established vendors too strong?



Hi @KZOR

ECIGSSA is merely a platform to connect enthusiastic vapers to one another. We decided to allow vendors on here but separate their marketing from the general discussion so we dont end up with a trade forum and punting all over the place. 

ECIGSSA is certainly not a formula for success. Getting your juices into the larger vendors has nothing to do with us as the Admin and Mod team. 

My observation is that it can take a new juice vendor around a year to start getting traction. And thats with a lot of hard work off the forum. 

Regarding your juices, if I am not mistaken, you do not offer online purchase or delivery. At least that is what I read last on your subforum. So how are we supposed to get your juice if we cant buy it online and get it delivered? I also dont see your website or contact details in your signature.

To answer you on the last sentence in your original post - we as the Admin and Mod team certainly have longstanding relationships with many of the long time vendors on this forum. But I certainly stay out of their business decisions on which juices they stock - if that is what you are implying. That I can guarantee you!

If you would like to discuss your concerns further, feel free to post here, send me a PM pr give me a call. Am happy to chat whichever way you like.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 6


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## Viper_SA

I very very rarely buy local, or international juice. Mostly because of financial implications and the fact that I don't like most of what I have tried. Don't take this personal, but I see your OP as whining, and that alone is enough to make some people not support your juice line.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Dr Phil

Very well said @Silver

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Trashcanman3284

Well if anything, this certainly has drawn some attention to the OPs juice. A bit of Kanye marketing perhaps?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## Nailedit77

I would just like to throw my 2c in here, I have just started out and havent officially released in any stores as yet.

I am very passionate about my juices and will keep going until I cannot go anymore.

Yes there are a ton of new vendors / juicemakers out there and they popping up everyday. At the end of the day if you do not give it all you have, you will never know what it could be in the future.

Try do something that is different than whats already out there. Guys who have been in the industry for a long time have built up their reputations and client base, this is why people keep going back for their juices.

I take in all that everyone has to say and have created my own path. Whether it will be a success or not, I'll never know until I have reached that point or not...

I really hope you don't pack it up, stick it out and see what might be

Reactions: Like 7 | Winner 3


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## KZOR

Feliks Karp said:


> honestly in my opinion its terrible


Lol ..... ironic because i pitched the name and design beforehand to an admin and was never told it was terrible else I would have changed it.

@Feliks Karp ........ if only I was shared these tips beforehand. Now I feel like a real douchebag regarding my product.
@Sickboy77 .... your reply is helpful. Thanks
@shaunnadan ........ also a very nice informative reply.

Sorry if I scratched open a "healthy" spot on the skin.

Reactions: Like 2


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## VapeSnow

@KZOR send me a Pm maybe i can help you!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Clouds4Days

I dont see anything wrong with the name @KZOR bottoms up is fine but the labels could use some work just to grab attention.


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## BrizzyZA (VapeLife)

Once you have that special juice, market it with everything you got. If you believe your juice is awesome then make people believe it too. Here's an interesting article around that:

https://vapemagazine.com/2016/01/how-to-start-a-premium-e-juice-company/

To me 4 things will make me buy your juice:
- Unique and quality flavour
- Attractive bottle design and branding
- Internet presence and awareness in the industry
- Competitive pricing

First and foremost above all things is that if your juice is premium then it must be unique and taken a lot of time and effort to perfect. Do not give me a shake and vape DIY that you created overnight. Mix to perfection, Steep to perfection, and Taste to perfection.

Secondly when I walk into a vape shop the thing that will grab my attention is the design of the bottle. You can have amazing juice in there, but if it's not appealing to the eye I wouldn't risk R150 to find out.

Have a website that details your juice and the story behind it's creation. This way people will be more intrigued on how it tastes.

Like many mentioned before, R150 is expensive for 30ml specially if you a new juice line and the option of DIY is out there, so try finding that sweet price point before charging the same price as an award winning juice.

Just my 2 cents

Reactions: Like 2 | Useful 1


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## Waine

@KZOR - Just my 1500 cents worth...Welcome to the cut-throat world of business and human nature. Nobody with a "victim mentality" makes it in any business. Its "clicks" (as you refer to,) acquaintances, friends, connections, hard work, passion and a bit of good fortune that launches any business prospector into success. That's just how it is. Keep on trying, believe in yourself and you will make it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 6 | Thanks 1


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## stevie g

@KZOR I removed the gif because @Waine summed it up.


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## ChadB

You could even build a website with Shopify, very easy to use and cheap. 
Will help you get your brand out there for your customers who are not in CPT and want to order.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Pixstar

@KZOR just my 2c.
Firstly, if you believe in your product, don't give up.
Many on here know first hand how hard it is for a small business out there.
I'm willing to bet that at least one established juice maker and/or vendor on here will PM you with advice.
I agree with what has been said here about good marketing, labelling and hard work and investment etc.
I know of established and successful juice makers that will not settle for inferior bottles for example, and choose to keep their product off the shelves until their preferred bottles arrive. Or choose to spend way more on label costs than most because it adds value to their already good product.
I also agree with finding the right pricing, making it attractive to prospective buyers to try your juice.
Most importantly, the juice has to be good and different to what's already out there. It's no secret that many of the successful juices took many months to perfect, before being launched.
Best of luck.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Blu_Marlin

KZOR said:


> Lol ..... ironic because i* pitched the name and design beforehand to an admin* and was never told it was terrible else I would have changed it.
> 
> @Feliks Karp ........ if only I was shared these tips beforehand. Now I feel like a real douchebag regarding my product.
> @Sickboy77 .... your reply is helpful. Thanks
> @shaunnadan ........ also a very nice informative reply.
> 
> Sorry if I scratched open a "healthy" spot on the skin.


@KZOR If the admin you pitched the name and design to is anything like me then he was probably too nice to say anything bad. If I don’t like a post or disagree with someone’s POV, especially if it’s a subjective POV, I move on. If I buy a juice that I don’t like or a mod that’s not too my liking I won’t post about it. I just.... move on. There are people out there that would like the juice or mod so my opinion would be subjective. But hey that’s just me. If I like something and feel that it’s worth it I will post.

I’m also useless at business things so I won’t even try to understand what goes into starting up a business from scratch. I will say that from what I’ve gathered, when you launched your juice, is that it’s only available in the WC. That excludes vapers in the other 8 provinces. Added to that, it’s only available via pickup. That would leave you exposed to those who live around you or those willing to drive to you to get it. You will also lose out on sales from those that live around you but prefer to buy online and have their items delivered rather than driving out to you. This narrows your target market, which is still relatively small, down even further. If you don’t have the capital outlay or resources to invest in an online shopping system and courier facilities, be patient and build the brand slowly, in the manner that you have, until you do have the resources.

I once bought two bottles of premium international juice and threw it down the drain two days later because I could not stand it and would not wish it on my worst enemy. Since that day I vowed never buy an e-liquid that I could not sample first. As a result I don’t buy international juice often. I’ve probably passed on some great local e-liquids because I couldn’t sample it, but I can live with that. I suspect that a lot of vapers feel the same about being able to sample the product before purchasing so with the juice only being available through pick up you’ve excluded a portion of the market in that regards as well.

Just trying to help.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## RichJB

I'm not an expert in the juice line by any means but it seems to me that juice makers:
1) Focus on what they like/want rather than what the customer likes/wants
2) Are resigned to marketing their juice on their own and out of their own pocket, and
3) Don't have a Unique Selling Point.

My local Spar Tops has started to sell disposable cig-alikes. With the exponential growth in vaping, my guess is that they will start to sell liquid as well shortly. Another bottle store in my area has a vape bar (unaffiliated to the store) which rents one corner of the shop for their stand. They seem to do decent business, there are always a couple of people buying juice whenever I go into the store. 

Rather than attempting to set up and fund an online business themselves, has anybody gone to a chain like Spar Tops and proposed a unique line of juices for sale in their chain? The name Bottoms Up is a natural fit for me because it is an idiom that is usually said before drinking alcohol. If I see a juice called Bottoms Up, I would expect alcohol/cocktail flavours. That, for me, would be the juice's USP - that it's the most comprehensive and authentic alcohol range, and the first port of call for anybody wanting a cocktail vape. 

If I was a brand manager at Spar Tops, a line of cocktail vape juice would immediately get my attention. It synergises with my core business of selling alcohol and fits naturally with the alcohol products which I stock. It's also a good vehicle for promotions: buy a bottle of brandy and a 2l Coke from my store, and get a bottle of Brandy & Coke vape juice at half-price. So it adds value to the Tops business because it is now attracting vapers. And of course it adds value to the juice manufacturer because instead of trying to punt his product in a crowded online environment, he now has it displayed prominently in a bricks-and-mortar chain. That is what business is about: mutual benefit.

I'm not suggesting this is what you should do with your range, just pitching the alternative of partnering with others and then also styling your juices around a partner's/client's/distributor's needs and giving it a USP. Maybe I'm talking nonsense here and it's been tried and failed already. But the idea of business is to keep looking for opportunities and being innovative. If the costs and work of promoting a juice line are too great to do it alone, then partnering is an obvious solution. That's not to say they'll go for it if you approach them. But one thing is sure: they definitely won't go for it if you *don't* approach them. Pitching ideas and proposals and being turned down goes with the territory in business.

The bottom line is that, as vaping grows, *somebody* is going to partner with major chains to get their juices distributed in that chain. There is no reason why that somebody shouldn't be you. Every day that you delay, you're leaving the door open for others to seize the initiative.

Reactions: Like 9 | Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Stosta

Wow... I must say this thread came as a bit of a shock to me.

Here's my little bit for you @KZOR .

Regarding the "cliques" on the forums, you're going to get that on any platform that more than a couple of people take part, it's just a natural way of people crossing paths on developing connections. There are plenty of members on here that I chat with on a thread, but never via PM, and it's not because of any reason other than neither of us have bothered to start up with the other.

Keep in mind that people take a lot of pride in their profiles, and if I'm going to shout the glory of a product from the rooftops, it's because it is good, and not because of anything else. I think it would be the same for the high profile members, they're not about to risk their reputation to punt a cruddy product, because at the end of the day I'm going to be pissed with them for convincing me to buy a POS. There are a couple of guys here that I have full faith in their assessment of new things, and that's only because when they have said something is good, I have come to the same conclusion. It's HARD to do a bad review on something, and as @Blu_Marlin says, I would rather post nothing than go online and tell the world how I think that XYZ's hard work equates to shit. And it is in the same way that I judge all vape products. I recommmended the Pico for months before I owned one, simply because I noticed that everyone on here loved theirs. But when I was asked about the Praxis, I advised the member to avoid it, for no other reason than I had seen NOTHING posted on it, so even though I knew they were out there, they probably weren't very good. 

For me getting new juices is a risky process. Very rarely I will buy one just because the bottle looks awesome, but everytime I have done that I have almost always regreted my decision to pay R150 for a bottle of juice that has the sole purpose of looking good on my desk. The only time I will buy a juice untasted these days, is if it comes in at a great pricing point. Even if I like the sound of a juice I tend to not buy it untasted because of past disappointments. I would rather wait until I can get a taster at a brick-and-mortar, or when a friend has some.

I'm really sorry you got to a stage where you felt this bleak about your venture, and in short, no don't give up! Everyone has different tastes, being a juice maker you now just need to figure out how to identify them and get them out there. It's hard to make you work public, but if it's something you love doing, then you just have to keep at it!

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## PsiSan

@KZOR , sure we can work you something in terms of design and branding. Maybe start a thread and I got some free time in the evening now, so should be able to draw you up a couple of things. Alternatively PM me with all your info and detail on what it is exactly you want on the bottles etc.

I supply a small part of locals in my town with juice. As not all of them have finances to run the "premium juice" in their tanks day in and day out. Never give up, passion is what makes a product great at the end of the day. I have not seen nor read up on your juices. But I read some say the profiles are nothing new, even alot of international vendors/brands are just recycling their take on something and seems to follow trends. 

To me personally juice is what makes vaping in general awesome. I do hear what you say about the "elite" but keep in mind they started way before the rest, and some of them even payed for recipes from all ready established brands. A great product is great but if it is not marketed it is not going to get anywhere.

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## Ashley A

I think the thing that will make a juice line fly is the quality of the juice and a unique flavour. This will trump everything as everyone wants a good vape. Even if there are clicks I'm sure they want to vape good stuff.

The thing is you need to have different flavours, not anything we can download of the web because chances are that most vapers here are already making those and have mastered them to their taste. The juice needs to be special, not nice or the same as another.

Another thing is vapers have been burnt be numerous newcomers. I haven't tries your juices but many other newcomers have kind of tarnished the brush. I have tried so many new flavours and usually only slightly cheaper and and they were horrible so it put me off trying newer stuff from non-established brands. This is were you need to get your samples out there. Go to the vape meets and hand out FREE samples. If it is good, people will talk about it here and elsewhere and then the demand will come. I emphasize free because I have attempted to support numerous "noobies" who didn't want to do free and I bough to support them anyway after trying there vapes at best. It was not like the tried bit, nor did they steep well. I mean they even put different substitute ingredients to substitute that they later told me and mixed the day before so no steeping. Not that you would do it but these are the things that happened which is what makes it harder for you to break into the market.

Another thing is that I only buy certain local juices that are really special because I can't make it. I don't buy any generic like a strawberry or banana milkshake because it is dead simple to DIY to your own preference and I definitely don't buy any international because I have found the recipes online and have perfected them to my taste over a couple tries already at a much cheaper price so again it comes down to a really special and unique flavour of high quality that is consistently the same for me to keep spending money on it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## KimVapeDashian

_"Dear Google.

I downloaded the android development platform, and have fiddled around with some ideas. There were a few ideas, and i have chosen the best of these ideas...

I have finally finished writing my Facebook application, but have noticed that there are not as many investors as previously planned. I did not really scope the market for similar applications, but I know that my Facebook is much more secure than the one that Mark invented...

I would like to not list my app on the play store, because it costs money - but I also want to be able to sell it there if that is possible..."
_
The industry you have entered is no different to any other industry in terms of market, and the economies that operate within that market including both the customer and the seller. Simply put, a key to success is the optimization of all the players in your market place... A seller approaching a buyer, because they want that specific product etc.

They do not want something else, because - well this is the best for them, and in no ways would they risk missing the perfect ADV for something that they have never tried.

Samples are key, as is advertising - How do you know that your juices aren't awful? My mom thinks my singing is amazing, but the police at 3am tend to disagree. You may say "but you have not tried them, sod off" however, if they were selling this post would not have been made. There are clicks on ecigssa, and I tend to not always agree with the mod team (clickbaitersyou) but, its not like they are sitting there going "KZOR released a juice, lets not support it". 

Where are your juices bottled, do you have any pictures of your lab conditions etc? I am on this forum often, so if i have missed that info - I apologize :/

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## KimVapeDashian

Rob Fisher said:


> And just another thought on the issue... there are so many new juice makers popping up all the time and a lot of the juices being tested are kak... so people are getting really tired of spending R150 on a new juice and finding out it's not vapable and they have wasted thier hard earned cash... so what do they do next time? They stick to thier tried and tested brands...



Quoted for emphasis.

Even established juice co's have lines that are released and people have issues with. I know that with East by Weiner, I complained about throat hit in my review - and others noticed the same... that alone, means I wont buy that juice again. Taste is subjective (if you pay me, i will argue that it is objective to some extent) however if the juice is good it talks for itself. I literally bought a bottle of Larrys eliquids or whatever its called, because apparently it was a good fruit loops - I bought it, hated the label but loved the juice and will order it once the 100ml's runs out...

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## KZOR

Thanks for all the responses and some have really been helpful but ......... this thread has totally derailed from my original concern.

*What my original post is NOT about :*
1) Struggling to get a name for my brand
2) Asking for my product to be gunned down
3) Advertising my product
4) Looking for marketing tips
5) The frequency of certain flavours
6) The quality of my product
7) Marketing strategies

*What it was SUPPOSED to be about :*
1) Are there strong bonds between admins/moderators and certain vendors/sellers
2) Will the advertising of products by the admins not be a huge influence on sales of those "friends"
3) Do certain vendors/sellers benefit to the detriment of smaller fish from regular exposure of their products by the admins/moderators
4) Is it fair IF above mentioned concerns are true

Concerns 1 to 4 has been answered. All I needed to know. 
*Many have stated that it is a normal occurrence and I accept it as that.*
@Raindance I know all about Charles Darwin and his driving force called Natural Selection.  I teach it

*Bonus benefits from replies :*
1) Working on a new design BUT name stays 
2) Discovered a large amount of very helpful people (thanks for all the pm's)
3) Found a vendor offering to introduce my juice and I know they will kick-ass. 
4) Gained some excellent marketing ideas
5) Discovered 2 new less friendly vapours
6) Even more determined now to try and give the big guns a run for their money

Ps @Clouds4Days asked : "What makes your strawberry milkshake diffrent from the other 20 already out"
Answer : I tried alot and did not like them and then made one I think is better.

Reactions: Like 4


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## KimVapeDashian

KZOR said:


> Thanks for all the responses and some have really been helpful but ......... this thread has totally derailed from my original concern.
> 
> *What my original post is NOT about :*
> 1) Struggling to get a name for my brand
> 2) Asking for my product to be gunned down
> 3) Advertising my product
> 4) Looking for marketing tips
> 5) The frequency of certain flavours
> 6) The quality of my product
> 7) Marketing strategies
> 
> *What it was SUPPOSED to be about :*
> 1) Are there strong bonds between admins/moderators and certain vendors/sellers
> 2) Will the advertising of products by the admins not be a huge influence on sales of those "friends"
> 3) Do certain vendors/sellers benefit to the detriment of smaller fish from regular exposure of their products by the admins/moderators
> 4) Is it fair IF above mentioned concerns are true
> 
> Concerns 1 to 4 has been answered. All I needed to know.
> *Many have stated that it is a normal occurrence and I accept it as that.*
> @Raindance I know all about Charles Darwin and his driving force called Natural Selection.  I teach it
> 
> *Bonus benefits from replies :*
> 1) Working on a new design BUT name stays
> 2) Discovered a large amount of very helpful people (thanks for all the pm's)
> 3) Found a vendor offering to introduce my juice and I know they will kick-ass.
> 4) Gained some excellent marketing ideas
> 5) Discovered 2 new less friendly vapours
> 6) Even more determined now to try and give the big guns a run for their money



I think that when one makes a post of this nature, both negativity and constructive suggestions need to be expected. Fundamentally you launched a juice line to make profit, and when it gets to that side of things - criticism is important, because your customer is your source of income. Market penetration is crucial in any market place that has high competition.

I did ask about how your juices are prepared, and in what kind of "lab" you operate - which I still do what to know. Certain juice lines, have overheads relating to sterilized environments and lab tests that they have ensured they get done to fall within regulations etc.

I personally do not dislike the name of your line, but agree that the labels could do with some work (remember, humans are fickle beings)

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## PsiSan

@KZOR , I think everybody just wanted to help a fellow forum member

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## KZOR

Could you please delete this post .....it is really causing huge unintended waves.
I know the team are doing a awesome job to keep these forums. Never intended to hang a general banner of coercion above the team.
Have realised that even if promotion of certain products is happening that it happens totally unintentional.
I am truly sorry for bringing up the post.


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## Feliks Karp

Please do not delete this thread. I think it would serve as good education to anyone else who wants to be a start-up, as the OP even stated that another post-potential juice maker felt the same as himself.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## KimVapeDashian

Feliks Karp said:


> Please do not delete this thread. I think it would serve as good education to anyone else who wants to be a start-up, as the OP even stated that another post-potential juice maker felt the same as himself.



Well it gives an insight behind what has occurred from someones venture and for that I do agree that it need not be deleted

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## Andre

If this is deleted, I will certainly raise a question to the admins/mods.

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## Alex

@KZOR, as many people have already mentioned, there are obviously relationships that have developed over the course of the last couple of years. This industry has moved forward at speeds reminiscent of the PC industry in the 90's. I believe the local juice makers have excelled to world standards.

Speaking for myself, I tend to stick with a specific juice that I know, rather than experiment with something new. Buying 100ml bottles of something I know will not go to waste is how I roll.

From friends of mine in the industry, I know that taking the time to do proper market research is essential in developing a new flavour. Coming up with one new flavour can sometimes take a year of refining and tweaking. I also believe that catering to higher nicotine users is something that you could look at. 

Competitive pricing is very important.

Lastly, you mentioned having a problem getting people to visit your sub-forum. Look for interesting vape related content to post there. It doesn't have to be about your business directly, but it will drive people to your forum.

Reactions: Like 3 | Thanks 1


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## Raindance

Hope I am not considered to be one of those less friendly vapers, if so, please accept my apology. Not intended as such.

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## SAVaper

I have mixed feeling about this and I am going to add my unconsidered opinion here.

Feelings and perceptions are real however inaccurate.
As a matter of principle I do not think any of the admin should be promoting a specific product. Reviewing is a different story. Other peeps may give their opinions at random.
Oom @Rob Fisher (only as an example) you do mention XXX a lot. Could it create a perception of promoting or would it be seen as normal conversation? Just a question.
On the other hand I am fully aware of all the wonderful things these very vendors do on this forum and for this community. Is it really unfair that they benefit a little from this forum? Some of them contribute a lot of useful information like in the DIY thread. Most give generously to marketing, vape meets and competitions and in general do a lot for the vaping industry. Is a little exposure and marketing too much to ask?

This off coarse makes it more difficult for a new guy to enter without laying out some (maybe a lot) of money in giveaways and samples. But maybe this is part of the coarse in business.

Like I said, this is unconsidered opinion and in no way meant to accuse/question either the admin or any vendor (big or small). I wish all of them equal success.

One thing I definitely agree with is that vendors may only promote their products in their sub forum. Otherwise this will turn into a facebook group where everyone markets their product and one would have to browse hundreds of posts to find something useful. I am not interested.

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## Imperator

I'd be interested in seeing statistics relating to correlation and causation between sales and ECIGSSA membership and the supposed punting by admins of certain products. Obviously this won't happen due to logistical issues but, and I think this is important to note despite the obvious value of this forum and the daily contribution made by its members, a large majority of vapers don't rely on this forum. 

There is a massive market that exists independent of the forum. I'm sure most Twisp and Vapemob users don't check up on our reviews or they'd see the massive independent juice market that is emerging. Plus, you obviously get a large amount of people that purchase from Cock 'n Bull and other such stores. 

I set up a company with a colleague of mine around a year ago in CPT and, while we are still small-time, have thoroughly enjoyed ourselves and enjoyed a certain amount of success to boot. We haven't set up an account on here (and have been remiss not to do so) but I'm not all to certain that it has had a negative result on our sales. It certainly hasn't had an impact on the willingness of distributors to stock our product (or to not). I'm sorry that you've had a rough time of it so far, it really can be a tough and I wish you the best of luck in the future.

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## Ashley A

SAVaper said:


> I have mixed feeling about this and I am going to add my unconsidered opinion here.
> 
> Feelings and perceptions are real however inaccurate.
> As a matter of principle I do not think any of the admin should be promoting a specific product. Reviewing is a different story. Other peeps may give their opinions at random.
> Oom @Rob Fisher (only as an example) you do mention XXX a lot. Could it create a perception of promoting or would it be seen as normal conversation? Just a question.
> On the other hand I am fully aware of all the wonderful things these very vendors do on this forum and for this community. Is it really unfair that they benefit a little from this forum? Some of them contribute a lot of useful information like in the DIY thread. Most give generously to marketing, vape meets and competitions and in general do a lot for the vaping industry. Is a little exposure and marketing too much to ask?
> 
> This off coarse makes it more difficult for a new guy to enter without laying out some (maybe a lot) of money in giveaways and samples. But maybe this is part of the coarse in business.
> 
> Like I said, this is unconsidered opinion and in no way meant to accuse/question either the admin or any vendor (big or small). I wish all of them equal success.
> 
> One thing I definitely agree with is that vendors may only promote their products in their sub forum. Otherwise this will turn into a facebook group where everyone markets their product and one would have to browse hundreds of posts to find something useful. I am not interested.


Mods are people too and they're entitled to their opinion. I think we need to learn about the people on this forum as so much is subjective and a preference.

Rob does indeed mention XXX a lot and so do I. That is because it is a superb juice and why it won at Vapecon. He also mentions Tropical Ice a lot and single coil builds on the cyclone but I hate menthol and prefer dual coil on my Nuppin so I understand that he has a different preference in general and don't rush to use those. XXX on the other hand is mentioned by many and was the winner so I gave it a shot and happened to be the only menthol/mint type flavour I actually like.

Hopefully @KZOR will enter the next comp and win and everyone will be raving about his juice and I and many others will be tempted to try it. The proof will be in the pudding and if it is as good as it sounds, then we'll be ordering liters of it

Reactions: Agree 3 | Thanks 1


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