# Vape & Politics



## Lion

Hi all

I've decided to start this thread as I'm really annoyed and tired of the ridiculous rumors and controversy being spread about vaping... It really drive me crazy when people make uninformed statements about our amazing products!!! I will expand on this as we go along. Let's address a few matters here?

*Health factor:*
1. Vaping is by far more healthy than smoking cigarettes, some studies showed that it is less than 1% as dangerous than smoking cigarettes
2. PG (Propylene Glycol) is proven to be a bacteria & virus exterminator, as far back as the late 1940's in it's vaporized form
3. Vaporized liquid don't have any proven negative side effects or health implications for bystanders
Will add more as we go along...

*Some ingredient facts:*
1. PG (Propylene Glycol) is readily used in various food as well as pharmaceutical products all over the world
2. PG (Propylene Glycol) is classified as being safe for human consumption with no known side effets
3. Nicotine used in vape products are in its 100% pure form without any additives or chemicals other than either PG (Propylene Glycol) or VG (Vegetable Glycerin) to "dilute" the nicotine. Nicotine is addictive but NOT the cause of cancer!!!
4. VG (Vegetable Glycerin) is also readily used in various food as well as pharmaceutical products all over the world
5. Distilled water - well we all know that distilled water is most certainly not harmful for human consumption. Open your tap and you have lovely chemically treated municipal water that is classified as being safe for human consumption, distilled water would most certainly be safe for human consumption, as this is water in it's purest and cleanest form
8. Alcohol - In some cases alcohol is used in vape liquids, this is alcohol with no added chemicals etc. and thus clean alcohol classified as being safe for human consumption. Alcohol is readily available in almost all stores today
9. Flavoring - All flavoring in vape liquids are classified as being safe for not only human consumption but also for inhalation in vapor form. Flavoring is also used all over the world in food as well as pharmaceutical products. In the vape industry we go the extra mile to use only flavoring that don't contain Diacetyl, Pentadienone or other potentially harmful substances.
10. Coloring - Most vape liquid bottlers don't add coloring to their vape liquids, as this is simply just cosmetic. Those that do actually use coloring (and there are), also use coloring that is classified as being safe for human consumption. As we all know, there are coloring agents in basically all food and pharmaceutical products all over the world
11. *Please note* that it is not common practice to have CBD (Cannabidiol) or THC (Tetrahydrocannabinol) in vape liquids!!! No reputable vape liquid bottler use this in any of their products due to added controversy!!!

Clearly all vape liquids can't be harmful, as all the ingredients used in our products are classified as being safe for human consumption with no side effects, with the exception of nicotine being addictive, but still is not the cause of cancer!!!

This is the basic ingredients of all vape liquids bottled.
This conclude the ingredient facts for now...

*Some bottling facts:*
1. Plastic bottles are used in the industry that is classified as being safe for food, pharmaceutical & chemical products
2. The most popular bottles is glass bottles, due to the fact that this don't only extend the shelve life of the product but the product is not exposed to any other chemicals whatsoever in any way (as there could be chemical imbalances in plastic bottles). Dark bottles also protect the product from UV light which extend the product shelve life even further. Obviously glass bottles are classified as being safe for food, pharmaceutical & chemical products as well

*Let's have a look at WHY there is rumors (the political side)?*
1. Government - As we all know, tobacco products is super taxed and therefore generate SUPER income to the government. It will be hard (although they will try to, and probably succeed) to classify the vape products as a tobacco product to generate more income. Not being able to SUPER tax the vape industry and losing so much on the declining income from the tobacco industry would most certainly "create" unpopularity at government level - RUMOR ALERT!!!
2. Tobacco companies - Yup, tobacco companies all over the world is getting a hiding, as tobacco sales are declining due to more people turning to vape products and completely leaving tobacco behind, never to return to that stinky world again... - RUMOR ALERT!!!
3. Pharmaceutical companies - Initially pharmaceutical companies were to introduce vape products specifically to the public to help people quit smoking cigarettes. Little did they know that the vape industry is much broader than that and they won't have the right to be the sole supplier of these great products ALWAYS... RUMOR ALERT!!!

*Current and Future legislation of the Vape industry*
Now this is where it gets ugly and very very unfair in all ways thinkable...
1. At the moment the vape industry is not yet regulated under the tobacco law in South Africa. Is this going to change? I'm almost certain it will. Not only did this change abroad in some countries, South Africa is known to follow suite and was also one of the leading countries to ban smoking in 2000 (not to say that I class vaping in the same category, but they do). Also, the vape industry is already being regulated in various fields, and no legislation even came to pass as yet... I totally agree that the industry must be regulated though, but not classed as a tobacco product!!!
2. What does this mean for the vape industry? 
More taxes - well, although the industry is already under a lot of strain with importing costs etc. , I guess we can get pass that, but I still believe that this is somewhat unfair to class vape products as tobacco, as it is not and this will put the industry right up there in the SUPER tax category. 
Importing practically impossible - Just look at the import restrictions on tobacco and you will know just how much the vape industry would be affected if this bill came to pass... Yes, still possible, yes, at much much higher cost
3. What does it mean to the end user? You will still have your products readily available to buy at your favorite vape vendor, the only difference would be that the government will add on their SUPER tax share on a non tobacco product, classified as a tobacco product, a nice way to ensure that they don't lose tax revenue when people shift over from deadly cigarettes to practically harmless vapes.
4. Does it stop with the government? Nope, that's not where it end ladies and gentlemen, the pharmaceutical industry want their cut in this pie, as they will certainly lose billions in revenue due to the fact that people don't smoke as much anymore, slicing their revenue with too many healthy people. Not to mention that they initially had the "deal" to be the sole supplier of vape devices and liquids... Sooner or later, they will jump in to narrow the margin
5. Tobacco companies, well they will get hit the hardest at the end of the day, but as far as I'm concerned, they had their go and they blew it by killing people with their deadly and highly addictive legalized drugs. Will they go down easy, nope, for sure not without a fight, and they got billions in revenue to back their fight... Let's just say, vape family, we've got one heck of a fight ahead of us and I honestly hope that the vape community will stand united in this, if we don't, well good luck to each individual and vape user...

I think this would conclude my introduction to this thread, would love to hear what you all have to say about this and maybe add your own points of view as well? I will also add more as we go along and as things develop. Interesting times for our industry... Together we will make the difference...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lion

Thanks for everyone involved with this pol thus far. I hope to see more participants in there to get a more accurate result in the end, but by the look of it, it's going in the direction as suspected...


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## craigb

Vital Vape said:


> Hi all
> 
> I've decided to start this thread as I'm really annoyed and tired of the ridiculous rumors and controversy being spread about vaping... It really drive me crazy when people make uninformed statements about our amazing products!!! I will expand on this as we go along. Let's address a few matters here?
> 
> *Health factor:*
> 1. Vaping is by far more healthy than smoking cigarettes, some studies showed that it is less than 1% as dangerous than smoking cigarettes
> 2. PG (Propylene Glycol) is proven to be a bacteria & virus exterminator, as far back as the late 1940's in it's vaporized form
> 3. Vaporized liquid don't have any proven negative side effects or health implications for bystanders
> Will add more as we go along...
> 
> *Some ingredient facts:*
> 1. PG (Propylene Glycol) is readily used in various food as well as pharmaceutical products all over the world
> 2. PG (Propylene Glycol) is classified as being safe for human consumption with no known side effets
> 3. Nicotine used in vape products are in its 100% pure form without any additives or chemicals other than either PG (Propylene Glycol) or VG (Vegetable Glycerin) to "dilute" the nicotine. Nicotine is addictive but NOT the cause of cancer!!!
> 4. VG (Vegetable Glycerin) is also readily used in various food as well as pharmaceutical products all over the world
> 5. Distilled water - well we all know that distilled water is most certainly not harmful for human consumption. Open your tap and you have lovely chemically treated municipal water that is classified as being safe for human consumption, distilled water would most certainly be safe for human consumption, as this is water in it's purest and cleanest form
> 8. Alcohol - In some cases alcohol is used in vape liquids, this is alcohol with no added chemicals etc. and thus clean alcohol classified as being safe for human consumption. Alcohol is readily available in almost all stores today
> 9. Flavoring - All flavoring in vape liquids are classified as being safe for not only human consumption but also for inhalation in vapor form. Flavoring is also used all over the world in food as well as pharmaceutical products. In the vape industry we go the extra mile to use only flavoring that don't contain Diacetyl, Pentadienone or other potentially harmful substances.
> 10. Coloring - Most vape liquid bottlers don't add coloring to their vape liquids, as this is simply just cosmetic. Those that do actually use coloring (and there are), also use coloring that is classified as being safe for human consumption. As we all know, there are coloring agents in basically all food and pharmaceutical products all over the world
> 11. *Please note* that it is not common practice to have CBD (Cannabidiol) or THC (Tetrahydrocannabinol) in vape liquids!!! No reputable vape liquid bottler use this in any of their products due to added controversy!!!
> 
> Clearly all vape liquids can't be harmful, as all the ingredients used in our products are classified as being safe for human consumption with no side effects, with the exception of nicotine being addictive, but still is not the cause of cancer!!!
> 
> This is the basic ingredients of all vape liquids bottled.
> This conclude the ingredient facts for now...
> 
> *Some bottling facts:*
> 1. Plastic bottles are used in the industry that is classified as being safe for food, pharmaceutical & chemical products
> 2. The most popular bottles is glass bottles, due to the fact that this don't only extend the shelve life of the product but the product is not exposed to any other chemicals whatsoever in any way (as there could be chemical imbalances in plastic bottles). Dark bottles also protect the product from UV light which extend the product shelve life even further. Obviously glass bottles are classified as being safe for food, pharmaceutical & chemical products as well
> 
> *Let's have a look at WHY there is rumors (the political side)?*
> 1. Government - As we all know, tobacco products is super taxed and therefore generate SUPER income to the government. It will be hard (although they will try to, and probably succeed) to classify the vape products as a tobacco product to generate more income. Not being able to SUPER tax the vape industry and losing so much on the declining income from the tobacco industry would most certainly "create" unpopularity at government level - RUMOR ALERT!!!
> 2. Tobacco companies - Yup, tobacco companies all over the world is getting a hiding, as tobacco sales are declining due to more people turning to vape products and completely leaving tobacco behind, never to return to that stinky world again... - RUMOR ALERT!!!
> 3. Pharmaceutical companies - Initially pharmaceutical companies were to introduce vape products specifically to the public to help people quit smoking cigarettes. Little did they know that the vape industry is much broader than that and they won't have the right to be the sole supplier of these great products ALWAYS... RUMOR ALERT!!!
> 
> *Current and Future legislation of the Vape industry*
> Now this is where it gets ugly and very very unfair in all ways thinkable...
> 1. At the moment the vape industry is not yet regulated under the tobacco law in South Africa. Is this going to change? I'm almost certain it will. Not only did this change abroad in some countries, South Africa is known to follow suite and was also one of the leading countries to ban smoking in 2000 (not to say that I class vaping in the same category, but they do). Also, the vape industry is already being regulated in various fields, and no legislation even came to pass as yet... I totally agree that the industry must be regulated though, but not classed as a tobacco product!!!
> 2. What does this mean for the vape industry?
> More taxes - well, although the industry is already under a lot of strain with importing costs etc. , I guess we can get pass that, but I still believe that this is somewhat unfair to class vape products as tobacco, as it is not and this will put the industry right up there in the SUPER tax category.
> Importing practically impossible - Just look at the import restrictions on tobacco and you will know just how much the vape industry would be affected if this bill came to pass... Yes, still possible, yes, at much much higher cost
> 3. What does it mean to the end user? You will still have your products readily available to buy at your favorite vape vendor, the only difference would be that the government will add on their SUPER tax share on a non tobacco product, classified as a tobacco product, a nice way to ensure that they don't lose tax revenue when people shift over from deadly cigarettes to practically harmless vapes.
> 4. Does it stop with the government? Nope, that's not where it end ladies and gentlemen, the pharmaceutical industry want their cut in this pie, as they will certainly lose billions in revenue due to the fact that people don't smoke as much anymore, slicing their revenue with too many healthy people. Not to mention that they initially had the "deal" to be the sole supplier of vape devices and liquids... Sooner or later, they will jump in to narrow the margin
> 5. Tobacco companies, well they will get hit the hardest at the end of the day, but as far as I'm concerned, they had their go and they blew it by killing people with their deadly and highly addictive legalized drugs. Will they go down easy, nope, for sure not without a fight, and they got billions in revenue to back their fight... Let's just say, vape family, we've got one heck of a fight ahead of us and I honestly hope that the vape community will stand united in this, if we don't, well good luck to each individual and vape user...
> 
> I think this would conclude my introduction to this thread, would love to hear what you all have to say about this and maybe add your own points of view as well? I will also add more as we go along and as things develop. Interesting times for our industry... Together we will make the difference...


Just to point out that safe for consumption may not mean safe for inhalation. My (admittedly poor) understanding is these products MAY risk being modified when heat is applied to create the vapour. 

Still reckon its galaxies safer than smoking though.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## craigb

Vital Vape said:


> somewhat unfair to class vape products as tobacco


Agreed. But the day politicians and legislation start being fair will probably be the same day the zombie apocalypse begins. Unless we fight them (zombies, politicians, legislators... They're all synonyms)

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB

craigb said:


> Just to point out that safe for consumption may not mean safe for inhalation.



Correct. Diacetyl does nothing bad if ingested, it is only when inhaled that it becomes hazardous. The flavourings we use have only been approved for ingestion. We aren't sure yet what hazards may pertain to inhalation. Maciej Goniewicz is currently researching this, we will have to wait for his test results to know more.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Lion

craigb said:


> Just to point out that safe for consumption may not mean safe for inhalation. My (admittedly poor) understanding is these products MAY risk being modified when heat is applied to create the vapour.
> 
> Still reckon its galaxies safer than smoking though.



Thank you for your reply and there is nothing "poor" about it though, your participation is appreciated and duly noted.
Not really, in the late 1940's a reputable dr. found that if Propylene Glycol is vaporized and inhaled, it would be beneficial to ones health, as in this form it kills a vast range of bacteria as well as viruses. The most popular ratio content an vape products is 30% PG, so just to start with is 30% of a vape liquid actually good for inhalation, as it will protect your body against bacteria and virus infections, thus giving you the potential to live a healthier life...
That leave us with only 70% of the product with a minimal risk...
Smoking cigarettes produce even more heat to burn those tobacco leaves...


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## Lion

craigb said:


> Agreed. But the day politicians and legislation start being fair will probably be the same day the zombie apocalypse begins. Unless we fight them (zombies, politicians, legislators... They're all synonyms)



Totally agree with you on this, I think we must get them hooked on vape...


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## Lion

RichJB said:


> Correct. Diacetyl does nothing bad if ingested, it is only when inhaled that it becomes hazardous. The flavourings we use have only been approved for ingestion. We aren't sure yet what hazards may pertain to inhalation. Maciej Goniewicz is currently researching this, we will have to wait for his test results to know more.



Agree with you on the Diacetyl, Pentadienone or other potentially harmful substances that could be in flavoring if one use flavoring that contain those substances... We don't know what those can do if one inhale that in vaporized form. One thing though, 70% of most flavoring is PG anyway (as the ingredients need a carrier and PG is the perfect carrier for flavoring), most recipes out there contain 5% to 15% flavoring (containing PG), lets work on 15% flavoring for instance. This will give you only 4.5% of actual flavoring that go into the liquid that contain those substances, and this is closer to the maximum than the minimum.
Also, considering that cigarettes contain more than 3000 different harmful substances like that, here we are trying to get half a hand full of substances like that contained in vape liquid... Must say something about our industry, trying to push our products to the ultimate of being safe...

That is if you use flavoring that actually does contain those ingredients...


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## RichJB

Well, it's not just the known hazards like DAAP. Goniewicz's initial testing showed alarming results that weren't DAAP-related, and the latest testing suggests that the vast majority of aldehydes released in vapour (initially thought to be from thermal degradation of PG and VG) are actually coming from the flavourings. So DAAP is just the first frontier in identifying and eliminating hazardous compounds from vape flavourings.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Lion

RichJB said:


> Well, it's not just the known hazards like DAAP. Goniewicz's initial testing showed alarming results that weren't DAAP-related, and the latest testing suggests that the vast majority of aldehydes released in vapour (initially thought to be from thermal degradation of PG and VG) are actually coming from the flavourings. So DAAP is just the first frontier in identifying and eliminating hazardous compounds from vape flavourings.



Again, this will depend on whether the flavoring in the vape liquid contain alcohol or not? This would be one of the very important reasons why all contents must be disclosed on vape liquids. This way the consumer can make an informed decision.
And may I add, the quality of alcohol would also determine the outcome of this (distilled mampoer would be a bit risky I would say ).


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## BubiSparks

@Vital Vape - Your opening post seems to be biased a little towards wishful thinking.... Particularly point 9. We are probably vaping at too high temperatures... There are so many variables in the process of vaping and we really still don't know enough. It's safer - sure; How much safer is not really known at this stage. I wish and hope that the Brits are right with their "95% safer" standpoint, but i recon it's lower than that.

I suggest you watch this presentation by John Bellinger from Evolv

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## RichJB

@Vital Vape, it's not necessarily due to alcohol either. They don't know what is causing it. They would need to split each flavouring down into its component parts and test them individually to find out what happens to each under high thermal conditions. That is a mammoth task. Here, for example, is the list of compounds that is used in TFA Berry Mix:

COMPONENT 
Ethyl Alcohol 
Propylene Glycol 
3-Hexen-1-ol
Butanoic acid, ethyl ester 105-54-4
Terpineol <alpha-> 98-55-5 l
Damascenone 23696-85-7 
Butanoic acid, 2-methyl-, ethyl ester 7452-79-1 
Ethyl Acetate 141-78-6 
Isovalerate <ethyl-> 108-64-5 
2-Butanone, 4-(4-hydroxyphenyl)- 5471-51-2 
1,6-Octadien-3-ol, 3,7-dimethyl- 78-70-6 
Ionone Beta 14901-07-6 
Hexanoic acid 142-62-1 
Pineapple ketone 3658-77-3 
Acetic acid 64-19-7 
methyl cinnamate 103-26-4 
Vanillin 68527-74-2 
alpha-ionone 127-41-3 
Hexenol T-2 2305-21-7 
Hexyl acetate 142-92-7 
Hexenoic Acid T-2 13419-69-7 
Lime Oxide 7416-35-5 
Methyl Salicylate 119-36-8 
Terpinyl Butyrate 2153-28-8 
3-Hexen-1-ol, acetate, (Z)- 3681-71-8 
Benzaldehyde 100-52-7 
Butanoic acid 107-92-6 

Which of those chemicals is safe when heated and inhaled, and which not? They don't know yet. And that is one flavouring, there could be up to ten or even more flavourings in a single juice. So you could potentially be dealing with hundreds of different flavouring compounds in a single juice that might be causing aldehydes to form. It is a case of starting at the beginning and working methodically through them, isolating them and testing them on their own to try and identify the culprit. Which is what Dr Goniewicz is doing at the moment. But it takes time as all results have to be double-checked and triple-checked.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Lion

BubiSparks said:


> @Vital Vape - Your opening post seems to be biased a little towards wishful thinking.... Particularly point 9. We are probably vaping at too high temperatures... There are so many variables in the process of vaping and we really still don't know enough. It's safer - sure; How much safer is not really known at this stage. I wish and hope that the Brits are right with their "95% safer" standpoint, but i recon it's lower than that.
> 
> I suggest you watch this presentation by John Bellinger from Evolv




Thanks for your post @BubiSparks .
As for the video, it's a bit off the vape liquid topic and more aimed towards functionality of your vapor device. Very informative though, great video. I do agree that the use of your device must influence the effect vape liquid could have on your health, but I would gladly add to this by saying that if you do use your device incorrectly, you will know real soon and correct yourself or stop vaping, as it is absolutely terrible to vape when you do it wrong... Heat, airflow, wicking, coiling devices etc. all contribute to the vape experience and yes, like all things in life, if administered wrongly, could cause a health risk (one can't blame the perfect product for wrong use and administration).

As for the "wishful thinking" comment, it may be so, or it might not be. You might be rite, you might be wrong? What I can say about the point 9 is that there are flavoring out there that does not contain these "suspect" substances and in other words certified as being safe. For now anyway, that might very well change in the future, as I strongly believe that one will always find something wrong in Anything if you really look hard enough. (is there anything that is safe according to research? One researcher find that salt causes heart attacks, the other find that one need salt to prevent cramps? Isn't a heart attack a muscle cramp then?) 

I think that there might be an "other side" of this that could be on the "wishful thinking" side, like maybe skeptics of the vape industry and those that find the industry as being a threat? Maybe they are playing "I wish genie" that this vape industry goes away. Well, they've got some rubbing to do on those lanterns of theirs...


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## Lion

RichJB said:


> @Vital Vape, it's not necessarily due to alcohol either. They don't know what is causing it. They would need to split each flavouring down into its component parts and test them individually to find out what happens to each under high thermal conditions. That is a mammoth task. Here, for example, is the list of compounds that is used in TFA Berry Mix:
> 
> COMPONENT
> Ethyl Alcohol
> Propylene Glycol
> 3-Hexen-1-ol
> Butanoic acid, ethyl ester 105-54-4
> Terpineol <alpha-> 98-55-5 l
> Damascenone 23696-85-7
> Butanoic acid, 2-methyl-, ethyl ester 7452-79-1
> Ethyl Acetate 141-78-6
> Isovalerate <ethyl-> 108-64-5
> 2-Butanone, 4-(4-hydroxyphenyl)- 5471-51-2
> 1,6-Octadien-3-ol, 3,7-dimethyl- 78-70-6
> Ionone Beta 14901-07-6
> Hexanoic acid 142-62-1
> Pineapple ketone 3658-77-3
> Acetic acid 64-19-7
> methyl cinnamate 103-26-4
> Vanillin 68527-74-2
> alpha-ionone 127-41-3
> Hexenol T-2 2305-21-7
> Hexyl acetate 142-92-7
> Hexenoic Acid T-2 13419-69-7
> Lime Oxide 7416-35-5
> Methyl Salicylate 119-36-8
> Terpinyl Butyrate 2153-28-8
> 3-Hexen-1-ol, acetate, (Z)- 3681-71-8
> Benzaldehyde 100-52-7
> Butanoic acid 107-92-6
> 
> Which of those chemicals is safe when heated and inhaled, and which not? They don't know yet. And that is one flavouring, there could be up to ten or even more flavourings in a single juice. So you could potentially be dealing with hundreds of different flavouring compounds in a single juice that might be causing aldehydes to form. It is a case of starting at the beginning and working methodically through them, isolating them and testing them on their own to try and identify the culprit. Which is what Dr Goniewicz is doing at the moment. But it takes time as all results have to be double-checked and triple-checked.



@RichJB Great post, thank you.
Aldehydes is commonly released when alcohol is oxidized, but maybe in vaping it could be different, maybe not? My finding would be that a lot of people use alcohol (more specific Vodka, and I totally disagree with this) to dilute their vape liquid, then you have your flavoring that does contain Ethyl Alcohol, my finding and opinion on this is that this would probably be the main cause of Aldehydes traces.

I must say that the flavor composition you provided of 27 E numbers would be close enough to 0 compared to more than 3000 toxins found in cigarettes? That is still a short list you gave, there are flavors with much more than that, but let's work on 50 for argument sake (and don't think for one moment that all on that list is actually harmful). Point is, skeptics are looking for a needle in a haystack, and it is for every reason BUT health implications, it's about tax money and large companies feeling the pinch. Who are these so called people doing the research anyway, pharmaceutical industry perhaps?
Question, how many toxins do you inhale while driving behind a truck blowing smoke in traffic on your way to work every day? How many toxins is in our "clean" open air that you inhale 24/7 every day? How many chemicals do you inhale while having a lovely braai on Saturdays? What about when you grill a steak? What about food being prepared with flavoring, that gets warmed up and one inhale those as well, now mom's cooking is poisoning us as well... See where I'm going with this?

We can find Loads of chemicals everywhere that harm us, that is for sure, but the list you gave me for vape flavor is limited to only 27, and they aren't even proven as being harmful?


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## RichJB

Are there 3000 toxins in cigarette smoke? I don't know how many chemicals there are, let alone toxins. A quick google search revealed the following from Medical News Today:



> *Cigarette* smoke contains over 4,000 *chemicals*, including 43 known cancer-causing (carcinogenic) compounds and 400 other *toxins*.



And then this from the NCBI:



> Tobacco smoke is a toxic and carcinogenic mixture of more than 5,000 chemicals.



And then this from the FDA:



> Fact: There are more than 7,000 chemicals in cigarette smoke.



So is it 3k, 4k, 5k, 7k? I think the answer is "cigarette smoke contains as many chemicals as we want there to be in it". It seems that vaping isn't the only sector where people just make up whatever numbers suit them at the time.



Vital Vape said:


> Who are these so called people doing the research anyway, pharmaceutical industry perhaps?



I don't think there's anything "so-called" about them, I am sure they are actual people. As to where they work or who funds them, it would be various sources: public health bodies, universities, pharma, tobacco. Most of the pro-vaping research that is released is funded by big tobacco, vaping just doesn't have the resources to conduct research. Here is one study done by Fontem Ventures, here is another, here is a third. Fontem Ventures is a subsidiary of Imperial Tobacco. So in your opening post, you accuse big tobacco of wrong information that discredits vaping. Yet much of the research that supports vaping is funded by big tobacco. Do you not see a paradox there? So what is the takeaway from this, that we can't trust research done by pharma or unis or govt but we can trust research done by big tobacco?



Vital Vape said:


> Question, how many toxins do you inhale while driving behind a truck blowing smoke in traffic on your way to work every day? How many toxins is in our "clean" open air that you inhale 24/7 every day? How many chemicals do you inhale while having a lovely braai on Saturdays? What about when you grill a steak? What about food being prepared with flavoring, that gets warmed up and one inhale those as well, now mom's cooking is poisoning us as well... See where I'm going with this?



So because there is hazardous stuff in exhaust fumes and other things we breathe, there is no imperative to try and make vaping safer? Vapers keep saying "it is not about harm elimination, it's about harm reduction". Surely harm reduction means finding hazardous chemicals in vaping and eliminating them? And surely that necessitates research to find what hazardous chemicals there are. If you won't trust govt or pharma or tobacco to do that research, who will you trust? Because those are the three sectors with the money and the interest to do this type of research.



Vital Vape said:


> We can find Loads of chemicals everywhere that harm us, that is for sure, but the list you gave me for vape flavor is limited to only 27, and they aren't even proven as being harmful?



27 in one flavour. There are several thousand flavours, with more appearing on the market every month. We also need to guard against the belief that toxicity is determined by the number of chemicals. I have seen vaping videos where the commentary says that there are [insert random number that suits the argument] chemicals in smoke "but only four chemicals in vapour". Firstly, that is blatantly disingenuous as it deliberately confuses ingredients and chemicals. There are only four ingredients (nic, PG, VG, flavours) in juice. But there are many, many more chemicals than that. As I pointed out above, a single flavour can contain several dozen chemicals. And then PG, VG and nic can also be broken down into dozens of different chemicals, with new chemicals (not present in the raw liquid) being formed under the conditions of thermal vaporisation. In its liquid state, VG does not contain formaldehyde. It only appears when VG is vaporised at certain threshold temperatures.

But even if is true that vapour contains far fewer chemicals than smoke (and it undoubtedly does), that alone is not an indicator of toxicity. There are many toxins which are simple compounds of only a few chemicals, and many very complex mixes of thousands of chemicals which are entirely non-toxic. There are many mild toxins where ingesting a gallon would only make a person mildly ill, others where ingesting just one gram would kill a person within minutes. The logic that "the more chemicals there are in a substance, the more toxic it becomes" does not compute. If vaping is going to accuse its detractors of bad science, it behoves us not to engage in bad science ourselves.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Stillwaters

@Vital Vape please get your facts straight and do not trivialise life changing events. A heart attack is not a muscle cramp. The blood vessels around and feeding the heart become blocked, this killing the heart muscle. This is far from a muscle cramp. I'm sorry if I'm sounding harsh, that happens when you've recently suffered such an event and still trying to come to terms with it

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## kev mac

Vital Vape said:


> Hi all
> 
> I've decided to start this thread as I'm really annoyed and tired of the ridiculous rumors and controversy being spread about vaping... It really drive me crazy when people make uninformed statements about our amazing products!!! I will expand on this as we go along. Let's address a few matters here?
> 
> *Health factor:*
> 1. Vaping is by far more healthy than smoking cigarettes, some studies showed that it is less than 1% as dangerous than smoking cigarettes
> 2. PG (Propylene Glycol) is proven to be a bacteria & virus exterminator, as far back as the late 1940's in it's vaporized form
> 3. Vaporized liquid don't have any proven negative side effects or health implications for bystanders
> Will add more as we go along...
> 
> *Some ingredient facts:*
> 1. PG (Propylene Glycol) is readily used in various food as well as pharmaceutical products all over the world
> 2. PG (Propylene Glycol) is classified as being safe for human consumption with no known side effets
> 3. Nicotine used in vape products are in its 100% pure form without any additives or chemicals other than either PG (Propylene Glycol) or VG (Vegetable Glycerin) to "dilute" the nicotine. Nicotine is addictive but NOT the cause of cancer!!!
> 4. VG (Vegetable Glycerin) is also readily used in various food as well as pharmaceutical products all over the world
> 5. Distilled water - well we all know that distilled water is most certainly not harmful for human consumption. Open your tap and you have lovely chemically treated municipal water that is classified as being safe for human consumption, distilled water would most certainly be safe for human consumption, as this is water in it's purest and cleanest form
> 8. Alcohol - In some cases alcohol is used in vape liquids, this is alcohol with no added chemicals etc. and thus clean alcohol classified as being safe for human consumption. Alcohol is readily available in almost all stores today
> 9. Flavoring - All flavoring in vape liquids are classified as being safe for not only human consumption but also for inhalation in vapor form. Flavoring is also used all over the world in food as well as pharmaceutical products. In the vape industry we go the extra mile to use only flavoring that don't contain Diacetyl, Pentadienone or other potentially harmful substances.
> 10. Coloring - Most vape liquid bottlers don't add coloring to their vape liquids, as this is simply just cosmetic. Those that do actually use coloring (and there are), also use coloring that is classified as being safe for human consumption. As we all know, there are coloring agents in basically all food and pharmaceutical products all over the world
> 11. *Please note* that it is not common practice to have CBD (Cannabidiol) or THC (Tetrahydrocannabinol) in vape liquids!!! No reputable vape liquid bottler use this in any of their products due to added controversy!!!
> 
> Clearly all vape liquids can't be harmful, as all the ingredients used in our products are classified as being safe for human consumption with no side effects, with the exception of nicotine being addictive, but still is not the cause of cancer!!!
> 
> This is the basic ingredients of all vape liquids bottled.
> This conclude the ingredient facts for now...
> 
> *Some bottling facts:*
> 1. Plastic bottles are used in the industry that is classified as being safe for food, pharmaceutical & chemical products
> 2. The most popular bottles is glass bottles, due to the fact that this don't only extend the shelve life of the product but the product is not exposed to any other chemicals whatsoever in any way (as there could be chemical imbalances in plastic bottles). Dark bottles also protect the product from UV light which extend the product shelve life even further. Obviously glass bottles are classified as being safe for food, pharmaceutical & chemical products as well
> 
> *Let's have a look at WHY there is rumors (the political side)?*
> 1. Government - As we all know, tobacco products is super taxed and therefore generate SUPER income to the government. It will be hard (although they will try to, and probably succeed) to classify the vape products as a tobacco product to generate more income. Not being able to SUPER tax the vape industry and losing so much on the declining income from the tobacco industry would most certainly "create" unpopularity at government level - RUMOR ALERT!!!
> 2. Tobacco companies - Yup, tobacco companies all over the world is getting a hiding, as tobacco sales are declining due to more people turning to vape products and completely leaving tobacco behind, never to return to that stinky world again... - RUMOR ALERT!!!
> 3. Pharmaceutical companies - Initially pharmaceutical companies were to introduce vape products specifically to the public to help people quit smoking cigarettes. Little did they know that the vape industry is much broader than that and they won't have the right to be the sole supplier of these great products ALWAYS... RUMOR ALERT!!!
> 
> *Current and Future legislation of the Vape industry*
> Now this is where it gets ugly and very very unfair in all ways thinkable...
> 1. At the moment the vape industry is not yet regulated under the tobacco law in South Africa. Is this going to change? I'm almost certain it will. Not only did this change abroad in some countries, South Africa is known to follow suite and was also one of the leading countries to ban smoking in 2000 (not to say that I class vaping in the same category, but they do). Also, the vape industry is already being regulated in various fields, and no legislation even came to pass as yet... I totally agree that the industry must be regulated though, but not classed as a tobacco product!!!
> 2. What does this mean for the vape industry?
> More taxes - well, although the industry is already under a lot of strain with importing costs etc. , I guess we can get pass that, but I still believe that this is somewhat unfair to class vape products as tobacco, as it is not and this will put the industry right up there in the SUPER tax category.
> Importing practically impossible - Just look at the import restrictions on tobacco and you will know just how much the vape industry would be affected if this bill came to pass... Yes, still possible, yes, at much much higher cost
> 3. What does it mean to the end user? You will still have your products readily available to buy at your favorite vape vendor, the only difference would be that the government will add on their SUPER tax share on a non tobacco product, classified as a tobacco product, a nice way to ensure that they don't lose tax revenue when people shift over from deadly cigarettes to practically harmless vapes.
> 4. Does it stop with the government? Nope, that's not where it end ladies and gentlemen, the pharmaceutical industry want their cut in this pie, as they will certainly lose billions in revenue due to the fact that people don't smoke as much anymore, slicing their revenue with too many healthy people. Not to mention that they initially had the "deal" to be the sole supplier of vape devices and liquids... Sooner or later, they will jump in to narrow the margin
> 5. Tobacco companies, well they will get hit the hardest at the end of the day, but as far as I'm concerned, they had their go and they blew it by killing people with their deadly and highly addictive legalized drugs. Will they go down easy, nope, for sure not without a fight, and they got billions in revenue to back their fight... Let's just say, vape family, we've got one heck of a fight ahead of us and I honestly hope that the vape community will stand united in this, if we don't, well good luck to each individual and vape user...
> 
> I think this would conclude my introduction to this thread, would love to hear what you all have to say about this and maybe add your own points of view as well? I will also add more as we go along and as things develop. Interesting times for our industry... Together we will make the difference...


Excellent report,we certainly do have a tough road ahead. My personal experience communicating with my local pols only confirm this as most are uninformed, misinformed or on the take.Most don't believe vapers numbers aren't large enough to matter on election day.


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## The_Ice

Just always keep in mind that the cigarette industry has a massive and very expert marketing team who aren't allowed to advertise. I cannot think of anything that will be better at spreading rumours than them, not even mevrou dominee at a tea party


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## Lion

Stillwaters said:


> @Vital Vape please get your facts straight and do not trivialise life changing events. A heart attack is not a muscle cramp. The blood vessels around and feeding the heart become blocked, this killing the heart muscle. This is far from a muscle cramp. I'm sorry if I'm sounding harsh, that happens when you've recently suffered such an event and still trying to come to terms with it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



@Stillwaters Thank you for your reply and yes, I stand corrected that a heart attack is not a muscle cramp as such. You are not harsh at all and my honest sympathy and wishes for good health goes out to you after your recent unfortunate event. I trust that your recovery is rapid and successful? 
I would just like to add though that I made that comment only to emphasize the contradiction in the research field, and this happen with all research. One researcher would find that eggs is bad for you in some way, the other again that one need it for good health. I believe that research is just a mere tool to back certain groups in their belief and statements, nothing more and nothing less. At the end of the day each individual's findings for what is best for him/her should be what matter.


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## Lion

kev mac said:


> Excellent report,we certainly do have a tough road ahead. My personal experience communicating with my local pols only confirm this as most are uninformed, misinformed or on the take.Most don't believe vapers numbers aren't large enough to matter on election day.



@kev mac I would like to believe that the vape community will stand as one and fight the battle together. Yes, there will be the individual or two that would try to take their claim by going against the stream, but it will be up to the Vape community to "direct" those individuals on the way out, as we don't need and want self centered people in this tough road ahead. The vape market is huge and there is more than enough leverage for all vendors, shops, wholesalers, bottlers etc. (no need to work against one another) and the consumer would be the ones benefiting the most from this, as they get the first ever opportunity to leave the world of smoking cigarettes behind once and for all, in general this could lead to a much healthier society. 
I also believe that it is our responsibility as vape community to fight this battle full on, not only for us, but for our children and future generations to come, as vaping IS a better alternative, and even if ALL the chemicals found in flavoring is harmful, it's like a drop in a barrel compared to harmful chemicals found in cigarettes...


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## Lion

The_Ice said:


> Just always keep in mind that the cigarette industry has a massive and very expert marketing team who aren't allowed to advertise. I cannot think of anything that will be better at spreading rumours than them, not even mevrou dominee at a tea party



@The_Ice Now this is one heck of a valid point you've got here, their manipulative expert marketing capabilities of the tobacco industry is not a monster to underestimate. Hahahaha @ mevrou dominee tea parties - let's turn that into mevrou dominee vape parties...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lion

@RichJB I really enjoyed this post, thank you. 



RichJB said:


> Are there 3000 toxins in cigarette smoke? I don't know how many chemicals there are, let alone toxins. A quick google search revealed the following from Medical News Today:
> So is it 3k, 4k, 5k, 7k? I think the answer is "cigarette smoke contains as many chemicals as we want there to be in it". It seems that vaping isn't the only sector where people just make up whatever numbers suit them at the time.


The controversy is huge, I totally agree and stand corrected with my suggestion of 3000+ statement. In my defense I did not go and google the latest and all the figures available and only went on what I knew is more or less the figure...
Well, never the less, let's suggest it is the minimum of 3000 - compared to vape liquid's maximum of 50 (in most cases a lot less), it would leave us with vape liquid being 2.7% as harmful as cigarettes!!! 2.7% As harmful as smoking cigarettes if ALL the chemicals found in vape liquids are found to be harmful when inhaled in vaporized form that is???!!! This figure alone justify vaping already, not to mention what the figure would be if only one or 2 of the chemicals found in vape liquids are harmful!



RichJB said:


> I don't think there's anything "so-called" about them, I am sure they are actual people. As to where they work or who funds them, it would be various sources: public health bodies, universities, pharma, tobacco. Most of the pro-vaping research that is released is funded by big tobacco, vaping just doesn't have the resources to conduct research. Here is one study done by Fontem Ventures, here is another, here is a third. Fontem Ventures is a subsidiary of Imperial Tobacco. So in your opening post, you accuse big tobacco of wrong information that discredits vaping. Yet much of the research that supports vaping is funded by big tobacco. Do you not see a paradox there? So what is the takeaway from this, that we can't trust research done by pharma or unis or govt but we can trust research done by big tobacco?


Let me give you the bigger picture here. NO research will ever find anything other than vaping is not just a little more healthy than smoking cigarettes, but HUGE percentages safer than smoking tobacco. The TOBACCO companies know this, that is why some of them started moving into the vape market as well???...
This would be my answer to you on the involvement from tobacco companies in the vape researching... They first need to get the current Vape community out of their way, they do this with limited negative publication... Once the vape community is out of their way and the market is open, they will step in again, this time with huge research campaigns finding that vaping is the way of the future and practically harmless. Their way forward is then paved and their "new" market is taken.
You can be certain that I question those researches done as well as tobacco companies's intentions, I don't make any secrets out of that. They are not in this game to gain our friendship, they need to exterminate us to pave their way forward, don't be mistaken or fooled.



RichJB said:


> So because there is hazardous stuff in exhaust fumes and other things we breathe, there is no imperative to try and make vaping safer? Vapers keep saying "it is not about harm elimination, it's about harm reduction". Surely harm reduction means finding hazardous chemicals in vaping and eliminating them? And surely that necessitates research to find what hazardous chemicals there are. If you won't trust govt or pharma or tobacco to do that research, who will you trust? Because those are the three sectors with the money and the interest to do this type of research.


How do you want to make vaping safer? It IS already at least 97% safer then smoking cigarettes as stated above if all the chemicals found in vape liquid is harmful? If you want it to be closer to 100% safe, remove the flavoring then, easy as pie? Then one only inhale PG, VG and the nicotine content? You won't be able to eliminate chemicals EVER, that is why tobacco companies are stuck with their thousands of chemicals in their products.
Yes, the government, tobacco companies and pharmaceutical companies will have huge interest in research and will "invest" billions to do THEIR research, as they are investing in their future asset. This outlay in capital is nothing compared to what they could gain in future revenue. 
Who will I trust? Well, at the moment I don't trust anyone (any of those 3 anyway) and it will take effort to gain my trust...



RichJB said:


> 27 in one flavour. There are several thousand flavours, with more appearing on the market every month. We also need to guard against the belief that toxicity is determined by the number of chemicals. I have seen vaping videos where the commentary says that there are [insert random number that suits the argument] chemicals in smoke "but only four chemicals in vapour". Firstly, that is blatantly disingenuous as it deliberately confuses ingredients and chemicals. There are only four ingredients (nic, PG, VG, flavours) in juice. But there are many, many more chemicals than that. As I pointed out above, a single flavour can contain several dozen chemicals. And then PG, VG and nic can also be broken down into dozens of different chemicals, with new chemicals (not present in the raw liquid) being formed under the conditions of thermal vaporisation. In its liquid state, VG does not contain formaldehyde. It only appears when VG is vaporised at certain threshold temperatures.


Several thousand flavors yes, but what you fail to mention is that it's not several thousand flavors in ONE vape liquid but 1 to what ever the recipe is. Also if you look at ingredients, it's not only 4, there are Nic, PG, VG, Flavour, Distilled Water (As PG and VG can't be 100% and does contain traces of distilled water) and then Alcohol as well in some cases (as a thinning agent, distilled water is also used as a thinner). There could be other ingredients as well but that is totally dependent on use and not common like I've mentioned in my statement.



RichJB said:


> But even if is true that vapour contains far fewer chemicals than smoke (and it undoubtedly does), that alone is not an indicator of toxicity. There are many toxins which are simple compounds of only a few chemicals, and many very complex mixes of thousands of chemicals which are entirely non-toxic. There are many mild toxins where ingesting a gallon would only make a person mildly ill, others where ingesting just one gram would kill a person within minutes. The logic that "the more chemicals there are in a substance, the more toxic it becomes" does not compute. If vaping is going to accuse its detractors of bad science, it behoves us not to engage in bad science ourselves.


I agree, salt could also be toxic if one consume the amount needed to reach toxicity level (7 bags or what ever needed per kg body mass to poison that body involved) Pyrethroid (a chemical used in pesticide) on the other hand have a way different toxicity level compared to body mass.

Toxicity levels vary in everything, and what chemical it is differentiate the toxicity level and tolerance compared to body mass.


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## RichJB

Vital Vape said:


> I would like to believe that the vape community will stand as one and fight the battle together.



What battle? What do you feel is threatening you? I asked the same of American vapers in August last year. The day before the FDA regs kicked in, vaping YT reviewers took to their webcams, some close to tears, pronouncing that the end was nigh, vaping had been banned, freedom had died, Obama would go down in history as a greater mass murderer than Hitler or Stalin, and that the time for revolution was upon us. What a load of rubbish. A year later and they're all still vaping, all still regularly reviewing new tanks, mods and juices, nothing has changed. Why, then, all the hysteria?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lion

RichJB said:


> What battle? What do you feel is threatening you? I asked the same of American vapers in August last year. The day before the FDA regs kicked in, vaping YT reviewers took to their webcams, some close to tears, pronouncing that the end was nigh, vaping had been banned, freedom had died, Obama would go down in history as a greater mass murderer than Hitler or Stalin, and that the time for revolution was upon us. What a load of rubbish. A year later and they're all still vaping, all still regularly reviewing new tanks, mods and juices, nothing has changed. Why, then, all the hysteria?



Didn't realize my discussion come across as being hysterical, by all means do disregard everything said giving that impression, cause I'm everything but hysterical. Passionate about our industry maybe, but comparing me with hysteria almost make my laugh? This is a discussion and I'm presenting scenarios, plain and simple communication and possibilities presented... Please do not go out and spray paint one of the CEO's branded cars at a tobacco company with "VAPE = LIFE" or anything like or similar to that!!!!????

I also never intended to give the impression that this would be the end of vaping, go back to my posts and you will see that I do mention that the tobacco companies's aim is to end up with the industry. And the reality of the matter in this case my dear friend is that the ordinary DIY vaping days and other smaller companies came to an end, as large tobacco companies will take the lead, flood the market and make sure that regulations get in place that exclude anyone else in "their" market. So yes, vaping will continue, but not as we know it and more in a "clandestine" way. I think time will reveal the outcome and some people need reality on their doorstep before they realize the threat, others see it a block away. This is what differentiate us all form each other, each with our own qualities and abilities. Combining these strengths is called team building and this is normally where the power come from, unity within a group.

But let me put it this way, from a different perspective. What you are telling me, let's say for instance you invested R1'000'000 in the vape industry, working your behind off a couple of years, helping the industry on it's feet and contributing to the industry. All of the sudden legislation change, importing taxes and normal tax is double as much and legislation are being implemented from all sides to "regulate" the industry. Your product is not competitive at all cause large tobacco companies are flooding the market, and although you are a reputable vape supplier with great products and customer database, you will only last that long in circumstances like that. Would you become hysterical if you face the possibility to loose your investment with a blink of an eye or the signature on a piece of paper based on lies? (please do not suggest or assume in any way that I'm talking about myself, this is a discussion and I'm presenting a scenario)


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## RichJB

I wasn't saying you were being hysterical, I was saying that some of the YT reviewers were being hysterical in their reaction to the FDA 8 Aug date. As we have seen, their "the end is nigh" doomsaying was completely wrong. A year later, nothing has changed. 



Vital Vape said:


> What you are telling me, let's say for instance you invested R1'000'000 in the vape industry, working your behind off a couple of years, helping the industry on it's feet and contributing to the industry.



People don't go into business to "help an industry get on its feet". They go into business to make money. 



Vital Vape said:


> All of the sudden legislation change, importing taxes and normal tax is double as much and legislation are being implemented from all sides to "regulate" the industry.



If I went into a business in which customers inhale nicotine into their lungs and I didn't have the expectation that it was going to be regulated, I should really have paid more attention to the world around me. If an industry involves customers putting substances into their body, it will be regulated and business owners need to factor that into their planning. Ignorance is not an excuse.



Vital Vape said:


> Your product is not competitive at all cause large tobacco companies are flooding the market, and although you are a reputable vape supplier with great products and customer database, you will only last that long in circumstances like that.



If you get hit with sin taxes, that gets passed on to the customers. If you buy a pack of cigarettes from Spar, do you think they're paying the govt sin tax out of their own pockets? You're paying it. K@k en bet@@l, wet van Transv@@l. Why will my customers go to the tobacco companies' products if my products are better? Big tobacco are still "flooding the market" with cigarettes. Are you still buying them?

Big tobacco have the advantage that they are big. That is a fundamental rule of capitalism and applies to all industries. A corner cafe owner has to sell baked beans for R15 a tin because he only buys 200 tins at a time. Pick n Pay can sell those same beans for R8 a tin because they order 3 million tins at a time. Economies of scale dictate prices. So the corner cafe goes out of business. That is free market dynamics. Is there a reason why vaping should operate differently?



Vital Vape said:


> Would you become hysterical if you face the possibility to loose your investment with a blink of an eye or the signature on a piece of paper based on lies?



It's not based on lies but on a well-founded caution about products which are inhaled into our lungs. The food flavourings we use in juice are regulated and were regulated long before vaping. It's a chemical product that goes into food, which goes into your stomach. The manufacturers had to go through exhaustive FDA safety testing to show that their product wasn't going to harm people. That applies to almost all products which are ingested or inhaled. Vapers seem to believe that regulation is some cruel and inhuman punishment that is meted out only to them. It isn't. It is how the world works.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Effjh

Most definitely Big Pharma through government. Big tobacco is moving towards vaping themselves, no way they will shoot themselves in the foot.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Lion

RichJB said:


> I wasn't saying you were being hysterical, I was saying that some of the YT reviewers were being hysterical in their reaction to the FDA 8 Aug date. As we have seen, their "the end is nigh" doomsaying was completely wrong. A year later, nothing has changed.


The doomsday prophets, okay, I get that, yup, they are totally annoying.



RichJB said:


> People don't go into business to "help an industry get on its feet". They go into business to make money.


Lol @ the in the business to make money, totally agree, and I would agree that some people got values and loyalty towards the industry, and then you have those self centered individuals only true to themselves and the amount of money in their pockets.



RichJB said:


> If I went into a business in which customers inhale nicotine into their lungs and I didn't have the expectation that it was going to be regulated, I should really have paid more attention to the world around me. If an industry involves customers putting substances into their body, it will be regulated and business owners need to factor that into their planning. Ignorance is not an excuse.


Like i said, a definite yes for regulation, a huge no no for regulating my vape in the same class as tobacco, it's NOT tobacco!
Regulating = Yes
Vape same as Tobacco = Not even close 



RichJB said:


> If you get hit with sin taxes, that gets passed on to the customers. If you buy a pack of cigarettes from Spar, do you think they're paying the govt sin tax out of their own pockets? You're paying it. K@k en bet@@l, wet van Transv@@l. Why will my customers go to the tobacco companies' products if my products are better? Big tobacco are still "flooding the market" with cigarettes. Are you still buying them?


Why would the happy customer go to another company if yours are better? Well you gave the answer on that, money makes the world go round and you as small company won't be able to compete with the flooded market with lowered prices from tobacco companies. Your loyal customers WIL turn to lower prices, don't be fooled, business is business like you say...



RichJB said:


> Big tobacco have the advantage that they are big. That is a fundamental rule of capitalism and applies to all industries. A corner cafe owner has to sell baked beans for R15 a tin because he only buys 200 tins at a time. Pick n Pay can sell those same beans for R8 a tin because they order 3 million tins at a time. Economies of scale dictate prices. So the corner cafe goes out of business. That is free market dynamics. Is there a reason why vaping should operate differently?


Maybe it would be best to invest your million in the larger tobacco companies then aimed on vaping and turn your back on the vape community that actually gave the industry it's starting point?



RichJB said:


> It's not based on lies but on a well-founded caution about products which are inhaled into our lungs. The food flavourings we use in juice are regulated and were regulated long before vaping. It's a chemical product that goes into food, which goes into your stomach. The manufacturers had to go through exhaustive FDA safety testing to show that their product wasn't going to harm people. That applies to almost all products which are ingested or inhaled. Vapers seem to believe that regulation is some cruel and inhuman punishment that is meted out only to them. It isn't. It is how the world works.


Regulations (especially false regulations classing a non tobacco product as being tobacco, it's like saying water and mampoer is the same thing and must be regulated under alcohol laws, because one consume it via mouth and it ends up in your stomach - bull) could be extremely bad in the wrong hands, we see that all the time and again. This is Africa as they would say... TIA


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## Lion

Effjh said:


> Most definitely Big Pharma through government. Big tobacco is moving towards vaping themselves, no way they will shoot themselves in the foot.



@Effjh A very valid point. One thing though, they might be more involved now with discrediting the vape industry to open the market for themselves at a later stage.


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## Lion

@Effjh Just to add on to your view point. Strictly spoken, the pharmaceutical industry already earned legislation that they should be the sole distributor of vape products as an alternative to quit smoking... I think there is just not enough resources at the moment to properly introduce and implement this...

Interesting article from Daily Maverick Here I quote from the article:


> The tobacco industry is not unique. Both it and the pharmaceutical industry would like to monopolize the e-cigarette action. And government is only too happy to sacrifice public health to big business lobbyists. The truth is that they are safe to use and effective to quit smoking. If governments were consistent, they’d hand e-cigarettes out like condoms.



Another interesting document here from CANSA Here

The current Law? Full article Here


> In terms of the Medicines and Related Substances Act of 1965 (“Medicines Act”), nicotine-containing e-cigarettes that are sold as a substitute for tobacco products (or as a medicinal aid to quit smoking) require registration with the Medicines Control Council for lawful sale, and may only be sold in pharmacies, on prescription. However, in practice, this is not the case. E-cigarettes are marketed in South Africa as consumer products, as opposed to medical devices. They are widely available at kiosks in many shopping malls, tobacconists and other retail outlets.


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## Tanja

Some very interesting viewpoints here...

So when they do start taxing... what exactly will they be able to tax? Probably only the nicotine itself? Surely not the PG, VG and flavoring? Mods maybe?


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## RichJB

It will probably be a generic tax on all vape purchases. It might not apply to accessories like cotton, wire, batteries, tools. But I guess that all mods, tanks, juice and coils (things that have no use outside vaping) would be hit. For DIY, I think only nic would be hit. Food flavourings, PG, VG, scales, bottles, gloves, syringes all have uses outside vaping.


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## Tanja

RichJB said:


> It will probably be a generic tax on all vape purchases. It might not apply to accessories like cotton, wire, batteries, tools. But I guess that all mods, tanks, juice and coils (things that have no use outside vaping) would be hit. For DIY, I think only nic would be hit. Food flavourings, PG, VG, scales, bottles, gloves, syringes all have uses outside vaping.


It's not that bad then...(Not that I am saying it's good at all!) If you build your own coils and DIY your juice, the only impact will be on your nic... and of course any future hardware purchases...
I almost want to say that I agree that commercial juices must be regulated... Surely you want to know that it wasn't brewed in a bathtub where his 3 year old son just had a bath in after a day in the sandpit at school! 
Anyway... I personally think it's probably neither here nor there... for me personally anyway... I am not heavy on hardware... and slowly trying to phase nicotine out as it is...


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## Alex

In my mind, the "mainstream-media" are the undisputed leaders in spreading fake stories about vaping. They are the real enemy. The tobacco industry as I see things are not the enemy, I'm pretty sure they regard the new vaping industry as a huge opportunity going forward. 

Not far behind the MSM are self-indulgent politicians and big pharma.

Well that's my 2c.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Sash

Alex said:


> In my mind, the "mainstream-media" are the undisputed leaders in spreading fake stories about vaping. They are the real enemy. The tobacco industry as I see things are not the enemy, I'm pretty sure they regard the new vaping industry as a huge opportunity going forward.
> 
> Not far behind the MSM are self-indulgent politicians and big pharma.
> 
> Well that's my 2c.


Media runs the world and every industry that the world has. Agree with you on this.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## kev mac

Vital Vape said:


> @kev mac I would like to believe that the vape community will stand as one and fight the battle together. Yes, there will be the individual or two that would try to take their claim by going against the stream, but it will be up to the Vape community to "direct" those individuals on the way out, as we don't need and want self centered people in this tough road ahead. The vape market is huge and there is more than enough leverage for all vendors, shops, wholesalers, bottlers etc. (no need to work against one another) and the consumer would be the ones benefiting the most from this, as they get the first ever opportunity to leave the world of smoking cigarettes behind once and for all, in general this could lead to a much healthier society.
> I also believe that it is our responsibility as vape community to fight this battle full on, not only for us, but for our children and future generations to come, as vaping IS a better alternative, and even if ALL the chemicals found in flavoring is harmful, it's like a drop in a barrel compared to harmful chemicals found in cigarettes...


Amen to all you say brother, I am with you and have and will continue to fight for what is right.
That said at 61 yrs.old I've been around the block a few times and have seen time and time again that the Pols are crooked as pretzels and care more about taking care of their big business buddies and lining their pockets than what is right or our health.Yes we must stick together, but it won't be easy.


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## Effjh

Vital Vape said:


> @Effjh A very valid point. One thing though, they might be more involved now with discrediting the vape industry to open the market for themselves at a later stage.



BAT has already released studies they funded that show the benefits of vaping as an healthy alternative to smoking. I wouldn't say they are planning on discrediting the vaping industry (again they need it in good light if they intend on entering the market), pushing for regulations on the other hand, possibly. They might want to out power the competition financially. Locally they are more focused on competing with companies like Twisp rather than the hobbyist market we are mostly reliant on. 

Big pharma still makes more money out of smoking related illnesses and their cessation products don't work nearly as well as vaping. Interestingly, cancer research is largely funded by cigarette taxes, little conflict of interest there..


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## Lion

Tanja said:


> Some very interesting viewpoints here...
> 
> So when they do start taxing... what exactly will they be able to tax? Probably only the nicotine itself? Surely not the PG, VG and flavoring? Mods maybe?



@Tanja & @RichJB When? We will probably know when they only start implementing it (although I believe that they already started moving in that direction behind the curtains, it's just not official yet), at the moment there is no indication when it's going to be. But it will be, for sure.

To understand how it will effect everyone, we maybe need to break it down in 3 or so categories like DIY'ers, Vendors and the Bottlers (Wholesalers) as it will affect each of those in a completely different way, but make no mistake, everyone will be effected on the same scale at the end of the day.

I don't believe for a second that the tax will be only on nicotine, tax is not ingredient driven, it is industry or if you want to break it down a bit, product driven. Example, there is super tax on cigarettes, not just the ingredient tobacco... Cigarettes are taxed on the paper, glue, buds, packaging, wrapping, tobacco etc etc. (paper are still being sold in other sectors and taxed with normal tax) What I'm saying is, be sure that if vape is classed as a tobacco product, we will all pay the extra tax on all the ingredients and also most probably on all related devices as well, as the product is meaningless without it. Do people really think it's difficult to regulate tax on PG and VG for instance because it's used in other sectors? It's easy as 123 to add super tax on those items in the vape industry, and very easy to enforce as well.

I'm going to leave the discussion for other points of view on how it will affect the 3 different sectors as I've mentioned above. I would really like to see what everyone else's feeling and point of view is about this subject.


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## Lion

Effjh said:


> again they need it in good light if they intend on entering the market


@Effjh They are already in the market, some tobacco companies already introduced their vape products



Effjh said:


> Big pharma still makes more money out of smoking related illnesses and their cessation products don't work nearly as well as vaping. Interestingly, cancer research is largely funded by cigarette taxes, little conflict of interest there..


True, very true...


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## Lion

Sash said:


> Media runs the world and every industry that the world has. Agree with you on this.


@Alex & @Sash Media is merely a tool used to control by larger groups or bodies. The media gets funded by who ever wants to get their message across, in this case by government, tobacco companies & pharmaceutical industry. These bodies got some nice funding behind them, so yes, the media will be sure to keep their customers happy to improve their revenue and income...
Media don't "run" the world, I do agree that it is the nr 1 tool used in the world to "run" the world though.


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## RichJB

To those who think that the media misinterpreting or sensationalising the result of scientific studies is somehow unique to vaping, let me re-link John Oliver's excellent piece on Scientific Studies:



It is not just vaping. Every sector is affected by media misinterpretation or misreporting of scientific research. It shouldn't be a mystery why this happens. "Peanut Butter can kill you!" is a media headline that is going to get a lot more clicks than "New scientific study on peanut butter reveals nothing we didn't know already".

Reactions: Like 2


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## Lion

RichJB said:


> To those who think that the media misinterpreting or sensationalising the result of scientific studies is somehow unique to vaping, let me re-link John Oliver's excellent piece on Scientific Studies:
> 
> 
> 
> It is not just vaping. Every sector is affected by media misinterpretation or misreporting of scientific research. It shouldn't be a mystery why this happens. "Peanut Butter can kill you!" is a media headline that is going to get a lot more clicks than "New scientific study on peanut butter reveals nothing we didn't know already".




Baaaaaahahahahaha Brilliant!!!


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## RichJB

Vital Vape said:


> @Tanja & @RichJB When? We will probably know when they only start implementing it



They will announce it and gazette it. Regulation/new taxation is not just sprung on the populace, govt announces and takes comments from industry and civil society first. I think they are observing the TPD2 process in the EU and seeing how that pans out. Then they will probably just adopt the EU regs as is. It makes it a lot easier in terms of trade. If our regs are the same as the EU then it means that manufacturers don't have to go through one approval process for the EU and another for SA. They can just forward their paperwork showing compliance with the EU and our govt will accept that.

We will definitely not have the expensive PMTAs which the FDA are applying in the US. The size of our market doesn't warrant it. Although, seeing as our regs are likely to be less stringent than the US, we will probably again accept proof of compliance with US regs for any product wanting to enter our market.

I think we can accept that sin taxes will go with the package. Govt is forever looking for new revenue streams and a vaping sin tax ticks all the boxes. 98% of the populace don't vape so there will be mass support for and little resistance to a vaping sin tax. Voters generally support taxes that target someone else and not them individually. Vapers are among the 10% of the wealthiest in the country. A sector that spends R150 on a small bottle of juice that lasts one or two days cannot plead poverty. It's also a voluntary tax, you can avoid it if you really want to. As such, it's a slam dunk for govt.


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## Tanja

RichJB said:


> They will announce it and gazette it. Regulation/new taxation is not just sprung on the populace, govt announces and takes comments from industry and civil society first. I think they are observing the TPD2 process in the EU and seeing how that pans out. Then they will probably just adopt the EU regs as is. It makes it a lot easier in terms of trade. If our regs are the same as the EU then it means that manufacturers don't have to go through one approval process for the EU and another for SA. They can just forward their paperwork showing compliance with the EU and our govt will accept that.
> 
> We will definitely not have the expensive PMTAs which the FDA are applying in the US. The size of our market doesn't warrant it. Although, seeing as our regs are likely to be less stringent than the US, we will probably again accept proof of compliance with US regs for any product wanting to enter our market.
> 
> I think we can accept that sin taxes will go with the package. Govt is forever looking for new revenue streams and a vaping sin tax ticks all the boxes. 98% of the populace don't vape so there will be mass support for and little resistance to a vaping sin tax. Voters generally support taxes that target someone else and not them individually. Vapers are among the 10% of the wealthiest in the country. A sector that spends R150 on a small bottle of juice that lasts one or two days cannot plead poverty. It's also a voluntary tax, you can avoid it if you really want to. As such, it's a slam dunk for govt.


Sad but true yes...


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## RichJB

Effjh said:


> I wouldn't say they are planning on discrediting the vaping industry (again they need it in good light if they intend on entering the market)



They are already in the market and dominating it. Not BAT specifically but big tobacco generally. 30% of the US vaping market share is held by disposables. The open-system Smok/Sigelei/Eleaf/etc gear that we use doesn't do convenience store disposables, that is the domain of big tobacco and one or two small independents. In terms of the overall US vaping market, disposables and rechargeables combined, big tobacco brands have 70% market share.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Effjh

RichJB said:


> They are already in the market and dominating it. Not BAT specifically but big tobacco generally. 30% of the US vaping market share is held by disposables. The open-system Smok/Sigelei/Eleaf/etc gear that we use doesn't do convenience store disposables, that is the domain of big tobacco and one or two small independents. In terms of the overall US vaping market, disposables and rechargeables combined, big tobacco brands have 70% market share.



Yep I know they are already in the market, didn't know it was such a large share though. Interesting fact.


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## Lion

RichJB said:


> In terms of the overall US vaping market, disposables and rechargeables combined, big tobacco brands have 70% market share.



Ouch, did not know this @RichJB , thanks for sharing.


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## RichJB

I found it quite an eye-opener when I asked on an international sports forum if there were any other vapers there. I got a number of replies but the vast majority were from people who had Blu or Vuse or whatever cigalikes, and then quite a number who just use disposables. They pop into their convenience store, buy a disposable, chuck it away a week later and get another. Eventually I asked "Yes but is anybody actually vaping? You know, mods, tanks, coils...?" and almost nobody was. 

It makes sense if you think about it. How did we all get into vaping? Guaranteed that 90% of us started with Twisps. We had the curiosity to dig deeper and find gear that is more enthusiast-level. But many don't. They start on a Twisp or a big tobacco cigalike and that's where they stay.

Here is the graph of market share in the US:




Njoy is the only non-tobacco brand in there. And they have since gone bankrupt. The stats are probably somewhat skewed in that they base their sales figures on those of the fifty biggest retailers or somesuch. So there will be small vape shops who sell our type of gear (but not cigalikes so much) and who wouldn't be factored in. But even with that, big tobacco has a huge share in the US vaping market.


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## Lion

RichJB said:


> I found it quite an eye-opener when I asked on an international sports forum if there were any other vapers there. I got a number of replies but the vast majority were from people who had Blu or Vuse or whatever cigalikes, and then quite a number who just use disposables. They pop into their convenience store, buy a disposable, chuck it away a week later and get another. Eventually I asked "Yes but is anybody actually vaping? You know, mods, tanks, coils...?" and almost nobody was.
> 
> It makes sense if you think about it. How did we all get into vaping? Guaranteed that 90% of us started with Twisps. We had the curiosity to dig deeper and find gear that is more enthusiast-level. But many don't. They start on a Twisp or a big tobacco cigalike and that's where they stay.
> 
> Here is the graph of market share in the US:
> 
> View attachment 106485
> 
> 
> Njoy is the only non-tobacco brand in there. And they have since gone bankrupt. The stats are probably somewhat skewed in that they base their sales figures on those of the fifty biggest retailers or somesuch. So there will be small vape shops who sell our type of gear (but not cigalikes so much) and who wouldn't be factored in. But even with that, big tobacco has a huge share in the US vaping market.



Now this is really interesting... Thanks @RichJB


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## Sash

RichJB said:


> To those who think that the media misinterpreting or sensationalising the result of scientific studies is somehow unique to vaping, let me re-link John Oliver's excellent piece on Scientific Studies:
> 
> 
> 
> It is not just vaping. Every sector is affected by media misinterpretation or misreporting of scientific research. It shouldn't be a mystery why this happens. "Peanut Butter can kill you!" is a media headline that is going to get a lot more clicks than "New scientific study on peanut butter reveals nothing we didn't know already".



Thank you for putting this in a better way!


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