# Battery safety - even in regulated mods...



## Spongebob

Guys help me out here please and be gentle with the relative newby?  according to this wonky calculator I found online, if I vape with a 1.8 ohm coil, on an ego battery ( typically 3.7 volts at about 8 watts), it says i am pulling 2055 milli amps off a 900 Mah battery?    isn't that then considered dangerous???   or are my brain cells of to bed already???    






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## incredible_hullk

@Spongebob 1milliamp = 0.001 Amps hence its 2amps.. use the drop down on ur site and change to amps

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## Kuhlkatz

The calculation means that you are drawing 2055 milli-Amperes or just over 2 Amp WHILE you vape.

A battery's mAh rating usually designates the 'capacity' of the battery, and does not indicate the safe current limits that the battery can handle. If a battery is rated at 2500 mAh, it simply means that it can theoretically supply a constant current of 2500 mA (2.5 Amp) for an hour. A 900mAh battery can thus do 900mA for an hour, or likely in the region of 2A for around 20-25 minutes ?

If I remember correctly, for the 900mAh 18350 Li-ion batteries, around 5 to 8 Amp was typically the average safe range.

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## Spongebob

Cool thanks, but where can one find the safe ranges for batteries??   

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## Silver

Spongebob said:


> Cool thanks, but where can one find the safe ranges for batteries??
> 
> Sent from my MI 4W using Tapatalk



Hi @Spongebob 
One of the international battery testing experts is a guy called Mooch
You can check his blog here:
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/moochs-recommended-batteries.7593/

He regularly updates his battery charts where he shows the manufacturer ratings and his ratings for max continuous discharge amperage. 

Wont help you for the Ego battery but for the other rechargeable batts that most vapers use.

The point to note is that battery manufacturers often overstate their max continuous discharge ratings. So Mooch helps us to know what the max safe discharge rating is.

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## RichJB

@Spongebob, also check out Daniel DJLsb's guide on how to choose the best battery based on your preferred wattage (regulated mod) and coil resistance (mech mod). It will give you a good ballpark of what sort of battery type (mAh and amps) to get.

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## Kuhlkatz

Spongebob said:


> Cool thanks, but where can one find the safe ranges for batteries??



The best place imo is on ECF, Mooch's Battery safety grade tables. You can bookmark this local one on ECIGSSA for a reference to get to Mooch's tests that @Silver mentioned above :
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/18650-battery-safety-grades-table.t14853/

In @Alex 's first post, there are a few links to Mooch's results. Typical tests are on 18650's, but he has recently done a few 26650s and I also saw some results for 18350s at https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/f...ch-test-results-and-new-ratings-table.727972/

Batteries like the iJust series & SMOK Stick etc, is best found on their sites. Add a bit of salt when ingesting the results though, as they are also likely exaggerated.

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## Silver

RichJB said:


> @Spongebob, also check out Daniel DJLsb's guide on how to choose the best battery based on your preferred wattage (regulated mod) and coil resistance (mech mod). It will give you a good ballpark of what sort of battery type (mAh and amps) to get.



Thanks @RichJB - that DJLS link is very good. Havent checked it out before
Nice how he shows the wattage and battery configuration for regulated mods
And he has one of Mooch's tables on that page all in one place. Nice page indeed

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## Raindance

Would the safeties built into the regulated mod not prevent the use of a coil that draws to many amps?


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## RichJB

The coil resistance in a regulated mod is irrelevant, @Raindance. The regulatory buck 'n boost circuitry is in between the battery and the coil, so the amp draw is determined by how many watts you set the mod to (or temp in TC mode), the coil resistance has no effect.

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## Feliks Karp

Raindance said:


> Would the safeties built into the regulated mod not prevent the use of a coil that draws to many amps?



Coil has no baring on your amp draw on a regulated mod, as the coil forms its own circuit with the chip. The mod also has no idea what is the safe amp draw of your batteries, it will simply try to get the wattage from the available volts, at best the battery will drain too quick and the mod will switch off due to "low battery".


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## Raindance

Feliks Karp said:


> Coil has no baring on your amp draw on a regulated mod, as the coil forms its own circuit with the chip. The mod also has no idea what is the safe amp draw of your batteries, it will simply try to get the wattage from the available volts, at best the battery will drain too quick and the mod will switch off due to "low battery".


So what you are saying is that I can have a battery blow out trying to run at 55 watt on a 10 A CDR battery?


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## Feliks Karp

Raindance said:


> So what you are saying is that I can have a battery blow out trying to run at 55 watt on a 10 A CDR battery?



It will probably start to vent or get stressed at that wattage once the battery gets too low, the device has no way of knowing at what amp draw your battery will crap itself that's mainly determined by the internal chemistry of the battery. Maybe some of the newer devices can pick up temperature changes in the batteries but if it gets too hot you are already stressing the battery. It's why it's important to buy reputable batteries and know their limits even when using a regulated mod.

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## Kuhlkatz

Raindance said:


> So what you are saying is that I can have a battery blow out trying to run at 55 watt on a 10 A CDR battery?



That is quite possible yes.
It was stated that the coil does not really matter, but it still does. Based on the coil resistance, the mod will calculate what voltage is needed across the coil to match the Wattage you dialed in. If you exceed the safe thresholds of what the battery can deliver, you might as well not have a fancy regulated mod. In my view it is just as bad using a 10A CDR battery with .32 ohm coil on a mech mod to get your 55W with around 13.1A drawn from the battery, as what it is using a 10A CDR battery in a regulated mod that can easily exceed the battery limits. 
You might not always check the screen or might not have the up/down locked and can easily dial in the max wattage by mistake. You will likely get a dry or burnt hit, but you might just get another surprise too.

If I am not smoking my socks, the below applies : 
On a .46 ohm build on my VTC Mini, the mod states 5.03v when I dial in 55W, so it steps up (boosts) the voltage based on the coil. Calcs show that the current draw on the coil circuit would be 10.93A. To provide the 55W from the battery which is only 4.2v, the actual current draw from the battery will be almost 13.1A in a perfect world where there are no losses in the electronics. Realistically, at 95% efficiency, the current draw from the battery will be closer to 13.75A. At 75W for the same coil, the current in the coil circuit is 12.76A at 5.87v, but the current draw from the battery would be around 18.7A if still assuming a 95% efficiency.

Short circuit and low-resistance protection is only for the 510 and atty end of the mod circuitry. Overheating warnings may be for the whole mod, but batteries can still go into thermal runaway before the mod shuts down. It's a bit like protecting yourself from scratches by holding onto a cat's front legs only, while leaving the more powerful rear legs unchecked.
[End of sock smoking]

We do not always get to see what voltage is applied across the coil by the mod, and that is why I personally do not like DJLSBs tables 'for the masses'.
My advice to new vapers : rather spend the R150 / R180 / R200 and get 20-25A batteries (or higher) from the word go, and know that you can safely use them virtually anywhere with most sane builds that you might use.
Over-engineering for your own safety is never a bad thing, and besides, R200 can never buy a pair of new eyes, front teeth or whatever else may get in harms way.

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## Silver

Thanks @Feliks Karp and @Kuhlkatz 
These are very important posts and thanks for clarifying it

I think there is a general feeling among many vapers that regulated mods are safe no matter what coil build or what battery. "The circuitry will intelligently avoid disaster." But it seems this is not the case. I think this needs to be highlighted further

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## Raindance

Silver said:


> Thanks @Feliks Karp and @Kuhlkatz
> These are very important posts and thanks for clarifying it
> 
> I think there is a general feeling among many vapers that regulated mods are safe no matter what coil build or what battery. "The circuitry will intelligently avoid disaster." But it seems this is not the case. I think this needs to be highlighted further


A bit embarrassing to admit because I would like to consider myself a pro at this vaping thing but I have never given battery safety a second thought on my regulated mods. Thinking all the internal safeties would take care of that. Fortunately I only use Samsung 25R's and LG hg2's. Have a couple of fake LG's which I only use in a VCT mini with an RBA for juice testing and thought the mod heating up was just because of the RBA. 

Scary stuff! Thanks for clearing that up @Feliks Karp and @Kuhlkatz. @Silver , agree totally that this is something we should make known wider. Many of us may be under the same false impression of safety on our regulated mods.

Regards and thanks again.

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## Silver

Am proposing to perhaps change the title of this thread to

"Battery safety, even in regulated mods..."
And move to the Batteries subforum

If thread creator @Spongebob approves.

What you think @Kuhlkatz , @Feliks Karp , @Raindance ?

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## Raindance

Silver said:


> Am proposing to perhaps change the title of this thread to
> 
> "Battery safety, even in regulated mods..."
> And move to the Batteries subforum
> 
> If thread creator @Spongebob approves.
> 
> What you think @Kuhlkatz , @Feliks Karp , @Raindance ?


Motion supported Mr chairman.. LOL. Jokes aside, most definitely a good Idea!

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## Kuhlkatz

@Silver , No problem with renaming / moving it if @Spongebob has no objections, and his questions are answered.
It might be beneficial to other people with the same question.

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## johan

Most important fact to remember; _batteries are supplied without brains, so use your own_.

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## Raindance

johan said:


> Most important fact to remember; _batteries are supplied without brains, so use your own_.


@johan You are assuming I have one?

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## Spongebob

Motion seconded @Silver 

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## johan

Raindance said:


> @johan You are assuming I have one?



I feckin hope so .

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## Raindance

I think the problem is that technology is evolving faster than we (Humans) are. We are becoming reliant on being taken care of and losing the instinct to make sure of all facts before making a decision. Possibly Darwins law adjusting to circumstances?


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## johan

Part of your statement doesn't make sense @Raindance  - technology is driven by humans that don't believe in Darwin's crap unscientific evolution theories, but by what makes any species survive: _Adapt or Die_ .

Georg Simon Ohm (1789 - 1854) surely didn't evolve. He was a German physicist and mathematician. As a school teacher, Ohm began his research with the new electrochemical cell, invented by Italian scientist Alessandro Volta ...

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## Raindance

johan said:


> Doesn't make sense @Raindance  - technology is driven by humans that don't believe in Darwin's crap unscientific theories, but by what makes any species survive: _adapt or die_ .


Wohoooo! Them are fighting words @johan. LOL! Love a good exchange of ideas. I am a Darwinist in principle and am more that open to convert you to the enlightened side. Only joking. To each his own. Actually a slogan on my family crest or is it the crest of my town of birth, not sure which one.

The Darwin theory actually claims that survival belongs to those most capable of adapting to change. Anyhow, because according to the Pareto principle most choose to follow without question, only a minority opt to confirm common "truths", the ability to survive actually favors the minority. As we become reliant on technology as presented under profit motivated perspectives, Darwin's totally scientific ( ) principles are being applied even under vastly different circumstances than they were initially identified under.

Converted yet?

Edit: But please lets not derail this thread, it is a rather important topic so lets stick to the original subject rather?


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## Silver

Spongebob said:


> Motion seconded @Silver
> 
> Sent from my MI 4W using Tapatalk



Thread has been renamed and has been moved to the "Batteries" subforum
Great thread you started @Spongebob 
And great replies here 
A good and important read for all

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## johan

Raindance said:


> Wohoooo! Them are fighting words @johan. LOL! Love a good exchange of ideas. I am a Darwinist in principle and am more that open to convert you to the enlightened side. Only joking. To each his own. Actually a slogan on my family crest or is it the crest of my town of birth, not sure which one.
> 
> The Darwin theory actually claims that survival belongs to those most capable of adapting to change. Anyhow, because according to the Pareto principle most choose to follow without question, only a minority opt to confirm common "truths", the ability to survive actually favors the minority. As we become reliant on technology as presented under profit motivated perspectives, Darwin's totally scientific ( ) principles are being applied even under vastly different circumstances than they were initially identified under.
> 
> Converted yet?



No! I'm a creationist by free choice and will not be lured into any unscientific enlightenment - I prefer to be part of the 20% of the 80/20 rule , and that has f-all to do with Darwin. Science are proven facts, not theories (ie: evolution), however I'm sidetracking the OP's concern/s. PS: science and philosophy don't mix well.

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## William Vermaak

Very interesting conversation gentlemen.

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## Anneries

Anyways, reviving an old thread, but one that is very important to me. Especially now with those pesky pink batteries. Remember your regulated mod does not know what the CDR of the batteries are that you put in it. It is your responsibility to make sure they are up to the task. 

I cant remember if I saw this link posted, I saw other Mooch posts in here, but in this one he actually explains how to choose the best fit battery for a regulated mod. 

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/f...attery-current-draw-for-a-regulated-mod.7532/ 

Something that I often forget to take into account is efficiency. 

Keep safe ...

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## JsPLAYn

Silver said:


> Tried something different.
> 
> I put the blue Petri on the little white Pico
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Stosta - check out the colour co-ordination. Lol. Blue topper. Gold rim under the RDA. Silver steel parts and white Pico.
> 
> However , although it's a cute little 'pocket rocket' it just doesn't feel right. Feels a tad small for the voluminous vape.
> 
> And maybe I'm imagining it but at 35 watts it just doesn't kick like the dual battery Cuboid or Minikin V1.5 which are the usual drivers.
> 
> Trouble with this blue Petri is to my eye it doesn't really go well (colour wise) with any of my mods. It really needs something different but I don't have it.
> 
> Nevertheless I adore the flavour and simplicity of this RDA. It's lovely.


True power on a single 18650 mod is definitely diferent to a dual. Like I found a 75 watt dual battery can be used on 75 watt but a single battery mod u can't really go higher than halfway then the internals safety kicks in and automatically lowers wattage suitable to batteries allowances , mostly while still showing selected wattage.. my reason for nt liking single battery regulated mods

sent from JsPLAYn'Z Headquarters

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## Silver

JsPLAYn said:


> True power on a single 18650 mod is definitely diferent to a dual. Like I found a 75 watt dual battery can be used on 75 watt but a single battery mod u can't really go higher than halfway then the internals safety kicks in and automatically lowers wattage suitable to batteries allowances , mostly while still showing selected wattage.. my reason for nt liking single battery regulated mods
> 
> sent from JsPLAYn'Z Headquarters



Thanks @JsPLAYn 
I hear you

probably a discussion for another thread but i dont think the mod knows the limitations of the battery you put in. I think it has its own current limitations but will pull as much as it can to give you the power you dial in, provided its below the mods current limit. Thats how I understand it. So if the battery is not up to scratch there can still be a problem.

Anyhow, you are right, i have found my single battery mods (VTC mini and this Pico, which are my main single battery drivers) do take a bit of strain even at 40 watts or so. Doesnt feel the same as the cuboid or minikin v1.5 dual battery mods.

I suppose it could also be that my Pico is not the most powerful single battery mod. Lol. For me its much better suited to lower power single coil applications.

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## JsPLAYn

Silver said:


> Thanks @JsPLAYn
> I hear you
> 
> probably a discussion for another thread but i dont think the mod knows the limitations of the battery you put in. I think it has its own current limitations but will pull as much as it can to give you the power you dial in, provided its below the mods current limit. Thats how I understand it. So if the battery is not up to scratch there can still be a problem.
> 
> Anyhow, you are right, i have found my single battery mods (VTC mini and this Pico, which are my main single battery drivers) do take a bit of strain even at 40 watts or so. Doesnt feel the same as the cuboid or minikin v1.5 dual battery mods.
> 
> I suppose it could also be that my Pico is not the most powerful single battery mod. Lol. For me its much better suited to lower power single coil applications.


I tried a evic vtc mini with a twisted messes 22 . Vaped it at 75 watt with a fully charged battery. Literally 2mins later..whilst still on just under full it says low battery . On a dna 75 it does the same but instead of showing low battery it simply reduces wattage when u fire it so it starts at 75 and quickly drops to what battery can handle.. these mods are cleverer than u think @Silver .. lol.. evic chipset isn't as advanced as a dna hence just showing low battery and firing lower whereas the dna shows u onscreen what really happens 

sent from JsPLAYn'Z Headquarters


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## Silver

Hi @JsPLAYn 

I hear what you are saying but i still maintain that the mod doesnt know what the limitations of the battery are that you put in.

Have moved the above three posts to this thread. Have a look at this thread and read the first page. It goes into this in quite a bit of detail and is very useful - if you havent read it already.

I do think this brings up an important point about battery safety that many vapers especially newer vapers may not appreciate enough. *Even if you use a regulated mod, it doesnt meam you are totally safe.* You have to still use the correct batteries for the application at hand.

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## JsPLAYn

Silver said:


> Hi @JsPLAYn
> 
> I hear what you are saying but i still maintain that the mod doesnt know what the limitations of the battery are that you put in.
> 
> Have moved the above three posts to this thread. Have a look at this thread and read the first page. It goes into this in quite a bit of detail and is very useful - if you havent read it already.
> 
> I do think this brings up an important point about battery safety that many vapers especially newer vapers may not appreciate enough. *Even if you use a regulated mod, it doesnt meam you are totally safe.* You have to still use the correct batteries for the application at hand.


Thanks.. il give it a good read. Always willing to learn more lol.. this hobby changes daily which adds to the enjoyment 

sent from JsPLAYn'Z Headquarters

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## Silver

JsPLAYn said:


> Thanks.. il give it a good read. Always willing to learn more lol.. this hobby changes daily which adds to the enjoyment
> 
> sent from JsPLAYn'Z Headquarters



Dont get me wrong, I do agree that the new mods have very intelligent boards and electronics - but I still think one needs to understand some of the basics.

If you put a 10 amp CDR battery into a mod and ask it to give you a power such that its pulling 15 amps (and the mod say is restricted to 20 amps) I think it will try pull 15 amps from that battery and there may be problems. Maybe it will cut out if there is some heating but its better in my opinion to know what battery you are using and what current you demand from it.

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## JsPLAYn

Silver said:


> Dont get me wrong, I do agree that the new mods have very intelligent boards and electronics - but I still think one needs to understand some of the basics.
> 
> If you put a 10 amp CDR battery into a mod and ask it to give you a power such that its pulling 15 amps (and the mod say is restricted to 20 amps) I think it will try pull 15 amps from that battery and there may be problems. Maybe it will cut out if there is some heating but its better in my opinion to know what battery you are using and what current you demand from it.


Fully understand @Silver .. to be honest I'm not well versed in battery safety.. although I do take note and knw what works and what doesn't. . But no harm in learning it just to knw and share some day .. 

sent from JsPLAYn'Z Headquarters

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## Spyro

Silver said:


> Dont get me wrong, I do agree that the new mods have very intelligent boards and electronics - but I still think one needs to understand some of the basics.
> 
> If you put a 10 amp CDR battery into a mod and ask it to give you a power such that its pulling 15 amps (and the mod say is restricted to 20 amps) I think it will try pull 15 amps from that battery and there may be problems. Maybe it will cut out if there is some heating but its better in my opinion to know what battery you are using and what current you demand from it.





This!! So much this!! Seeing people draw 30A+ on a Chinese mod with LG chocs and then saying "oh it's a regulated mod it doesn't matter". like you said, It may have a temp cut off but that won't save you from a dud battery or at the very least destroying the longevity of your battery


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## Raindance

I have seen a number of posts in various threads indicating that there may be a general expectation that a mod can achieve its maximum published output at any resistance within its published resistance range.

This is however not the case.

Have a look at the below graphs published for the DNA 250 board, clearly indicating that the published 250W output is actually only available between 0.075 and 0.35 ohm. Higher resistances see an exponential drop in max power output.

The board will also limit input current to 28 amps with a max input voltage limited to 12.6 volts or less depending on cell/battery configuration. Hence the dual cell Therion 166 only achieving 167W on the DNA 250 board.

Max output current and voltage for this board is 60A and 9.3V respectively.


So at least on a DNA board the max current draw is published and ensuring one purchases cells that have an equal or preferably higher rating will keep you safe.

Hope this assists. Regards

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## johan

Doesn't matter what intelligence are build into a mod, it still comes without brains - educate yourself on Ohms law and reading a battery's data sheet (in short use your own brains).

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