# Coils and toxicity



## DurbanThroatHit (9/10/17)

Hi all

So basically I stumbled upon a debate on facebook over what the safest wires/coils are to vape with. Unbeknownst to me was that pulsing coils result in the altering of the wires properties

http://vapingunderground.com/threads/resistance-wire-safety-guide.204000/

the above link ranked each coil wire according to level of safety and I am curious as to how much of this is true ? If there is any chemical engineers or experienced vapers who can attest to one coil being safer to use than another ?

I am happy with ni80 24g, and I am on my second spool, but we're all vaping to be healthier at the end of the day so any input is appreciated.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## kev mac (10/10/17)

DurbanThroatHit said:


> Hi all
> 
> So basically I stumbled upon a debate on facebook over what the safest wires/coils are to vape with. Unbeknownst to me was that pulsing coils result in the altering of the wires properties
> 
> ...


I'll bet our resident forum"knows a lot on many subjects guy "@johan could avail us on this.You out there mate?

Reactions: Like 2


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## johan (10/10/17)

@kev mac I'm for sure not a chemical engineer (electronic/physics- yes). I did not read the article, but all I know is that any metal and/or alloy will "result in altering its inherent properties" if heated beyond a certain temperature - that specific point will differ from metal/alloy to metal/alloy.
PS. simple example: Kanthal is quite "springy" but once heated beyond a certain temperature its malleable, and accordingly the inherent properties of this specific alloy must have changed.

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## zadiac (10/10/17)

johan said:


> @kev mac I'm for sure not a chemical engineer (electronic/physics- yes). I did not read the article, but all I know is that any metal and/or alloy will "result in altering its inherent properties" if heated beyond a certain temperature - that specific point will differ from metal/alloy to metal/alloy.
> PS. simple example: Kanthal is quite "springy" but once heated beyond a certain temperature its malleable, and accordingly the inherent properties of this specific alloy must have changed.



Glad to see you're still kicking Ohm Johan

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## DaveH (11/10/17)

*"Nickel* is a carcinogen, meaning that inhaling this substance is hazardous to your lungs and nasal canal. As a result, *nickel* is on the Hazardous Substance List in the United States as being one of the most *dangerous* alloys, and is regulated by OSHA (Occupational Hazard Safety Association)."

I'm wary of using Ni wire or NiCr wire because of the above. May be I'm just being over cautious because the coil temperature in vaping isn't high enough to cause a problem.
Dave

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## kev mac (11/10/17)

DaveH said:


> *"Nickel* is a carcinogen, meaning that inhaling this substance is hazardous to your lungs and nasal canal. As a result, *nickel* is on the Hazardous Substance List in the United States as being one of the most *dangerous* alloys, and is regulated by OSHA (Occupational Hazard Safety Association)."
> 
> I'm wary of using Ni wire or NiCr wire because of the above. May be I'm just being over cautious because the coil temperature in vaping isn't high enough to cause a problem.
> Dave


I also avoid these wires for the reason you've stated.

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## Huffapuff (11/10/17)

DaveH said:


> *"Nickel* is a carcinogen, meaning that inhaling this substance is hazardous to your lungs and nasal canal. As a result, *nickel* is on the Hazardous Substance List in the United States as being one of the most *dangerous* alloys, and is regulated by OSHA (Occupational Hazard Safety Association)."
> 
> I'm wary of using Ni wire or NiCr wire because of the above. May be I'm just being over cautious because the coil temperature in vaping isn't high enough to cause a problem.
> Dave


I've wanted to try nichrome wire for ages, but until this issue is definitively cleared up I'm sticking to stainless steel.

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## Puff the Magic Dragon (11/10/17)

I agree with @Huffapuff . I have wanted to try nichrome but there have been possibly valid negative issues raised. I follow a better safe than sorry policy, and stick to stainless and kanthal.

This new "policy" is clearly somewhat hypocritical from someone who smoked 20 plus stinkies a day for 35 years. Hundreds of chemicals for thousands of days.

It is sickening how righteous I have become.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## antonherbst (11/10/17)

I am at no cost or knowledge base the best person to explain the chemical compositions of vaping wires. But as a Safety consultant i have just now looked for the material safety data sheets(MSDS) of NI80 and SS. And the following is direct links to each MSDS for the metals. *I will investigate this and give feed back.* Only important factor we must remember is that the MSDS'es refer to the said metal to be in "powder" form or as "wire" form to be ingested, inhaled or skin contact.

http://www.espimetals.com/index.php/586-msds/nickel-chromium-alloy/974-nickel-chromium-alloy
http://www1.mscdirect.com/MSDS/MSDS00030/00052050-20160831.PDF

Just as an added factor as to really what we are putting into our bodies i have attached the link to the MSDS for PG.
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927239

From this all i want to say is yes some chemicals are dangerous for us as humans and this is why most of us here have stopped smoking stinkies and smoking hubly. But stil we are exposed to other far more dangerous factors on a daily basis. 

So danger is relative to your understanding.

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## zadiac (11/10/17)

https://nicotinepolicy.net/miroslaw-dworniczak/5713-e-cigarette-coils-from-a-chemist-s-point-of-view

https://www.wakeandvape.com/blog/regarding-nickel-concerns/

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 4


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## Waine (11/10/17)

Having researched this topic myself, I have settled on two wires only, no1, Kanthal, no 2, Stainless. All plain round wire. Except for the odd Kanthal Clapton.


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## Silver (11/10/17)

Am interested in this thread
Thanks for starting it @DurbanThroatHit 

Thanks for the links above @zadiac 
What that second link says is that we dont get anywhere near the temps to make Nickel based wires a problem - ie to let off particles that are carcinogenic. 

My question would be - how do we know its only at melting point temps that this starts to happen. What if it happens at much lower temps too? I wonder how hot our wires get when we pulse and dry burn? I suppose nowhere near melting point because our wires dont melt even when we dry burn.

But this is definitely worth further research and looking into.
@Alex , have you seen anything on the international front on this?
@RichJB - have you heard anything about safety on wire types from the learned chaps you follow overseas?
@Andre - whats your take on this?

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## Silver (11/10/17)

zadiac said:


> https://nicotinepolicy.net/miroslaw-dworniczak/5713-e-cigarette-coils-from-a-chemist-s-point-of-view
> 
> https://www.wakeandvape.com/blog/regarding-nickel-concerns/



Interesting, just squizzed through the first link that @zadiac shared
This guy reckons we should NOT be dry burning our coils and should rather replace them
I dry burn every time i rewick. I generally do it at lower power and i dont overdo it, just till it starts to glow a darkish red. But i must admit, sometimes i do dry burn it longer and it gets hotter.

Hmmm....

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## RichJB (11/10/17)

Sorry @Silver, other than the usual "you shouldn't vape nickel or titanium coils in anything other than TC mode", I haven't heard much discussed about the safety of wires. I'm not sure it's even a priority for health researchers yet. I know that several are *very* concerned about the wattages and temps used during vaping. They claim an almost exponential increase in nasties as the temp of vapour increases. But I'm not sure they've got as far as distinguishing between the metal types.

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## Silver (11/10/17)

RichJB said:


> Sorry @Silver, other than the usual "you shouldn't vape nickel or titanium coils in anything other than TC mode", I haven't heard much discussed about the safety of wires. I'm not sure it's even a priority for health researchers yet. I know that several are *very* concerned about the wattages and temps used during vaping. They claim an almost exponential increase in nasties as the temp of vapour increases. But I'm not sure they've got as far as distinguishing between the metal types.



Thanks @RichJB 
I get very nervous when you comment about health issues...

That one day i almost fell off my chair when i heard that strawberry and menthol flavours were not so good. Thats pretty much my staple!

Next i will find out that pulsing coils and using NI80 wire is very bad...

I might just be the perfect example of what not to do

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 5


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## Waine (11/10/17)

Vaping still beats cigarettes, hands down. There is always a trade off in life, unfortunately. I won’t be surprised if the metal coils, or even the juice we use is in some way or other “bad” for our health. At present there is no alarming evidence to this effect. I guess humanity will only find out in about 50 years or so — the real side effects of vaping.

Having said that, I do try to keep the coils at a lower wattage as possible when vaping and cleaning coils.


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## Alex (11/10/17)

I choose to believe that Ni80 is fine to use in vaping.

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## Mida Khan (12/10/17)

It is my understanding that after Nichrome is heated a chromium oxide layer will form around it to protect the metal within from oxidizing. 

This will protect it from breaking/burning. The carcinogenic toxins will release toxins at around 750-800F, even joose heated to a degree like 500F (who does that anyway?!) can create formaldehyde, but all temp controlled mods are set so you dont exceed the threshold.

It should be fine IMHO.

With that said, I'm eager to try Titanium

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## DurbanThroatHit (18/10/17)

Wow thanks for all the responses everyone !



antonherbst said:


> I am at no cost or knowledge base the best person to explain the chemical compositions of vaping wires. But as a Safety consultant i have just now looked for the material safety data sheets(MSDS) of NI80 and SS. And the following is direct links to each MSDS for the metals. *I will investigate this and give feed back.* Only important factor we must remember is that the MSDS'es refer to the said metal to be in "powder" form or as "wire" form to be ingested, inhaled or skin contact.
> 
> http://www.espimetals.com/index.php/586-msds/nickel-chromium-alloy/974-nickel-chromium-alloy
> http://www1.mscdirect.com/MSDS/MSDS00030/00052050-20160831.PDF
> ...





zadiac said:


> https://nicotinepolicy.net/miroslaw-dworniczak/5713-e-cigarette-coils-from-a-chemist-s-point-of-view
> 
> https://www.wakeandvape.com/blog/regarding-nickel-concerns/



Thanks for these I will study the information after exams lol 

@RichJB I have seen most TC modes list Ni200 as an option, thus I am assuming nichrome 80 is unable to be vaped in TC? 

For those who use stainless steel, can anybody recommend a wire for +- .2 ohm builds in either a dual or tri deck layout ?? I liked 24g Nichrome and don't really build crazy low, greater preferences for a neutral, flavor filled vaping experience vs a hot and cloudy one

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## The_Ice (18/10/17)

Alex said:


> I choose to believe that Ni80 is fine to use in vaping.


Hahahahaha, I love this, definitely a contender for quote of the month

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## RichJB (18/10/17)

DurbanThroatHit said:


> @RichJB I have seen most TC modes list Ni200 as an option, thus I am assuming nichrome 80 is unable to be vaped in TC?



It is not conventionally offered in TC but I believe that the Hohm Slice mod can do TC on any wire type.

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