# A new low



## kev mac

Just a short while ago I was grooving in the afterglow of a great New England sports night.
My life-long favorite Boston Red Sox had beaten the Huston Astros to even the ALCS at 1 game each.And on top of that my hometown heroes the New England Patriots pulled off another patented last minute victory. 
Then the anti vapeing lobby harshed my mellow.
I saw for the first time a "Public service announcement in the form of a commercial misinforming me on how vapeing is worse than smoking because a hit of the vape pod is like smoking 20 cigarettes in terms of the amount of nicotine. This got my goat for sure.Then immediately following that another came on this time saying that Vapers are many many times more likely to switch to cigarettes. The anti smoking lobby once again playing fast and loose with the facts.I understand that we don't want minors to start vapeing as a fashion statement the same way I wouldn't want my children to drink or take drugs or smoke.But these are things as parents we must keep our youngsters away from.I as well as all my fellow forum mates know that vapeing saves lives and I resent the disservice and halve truths these special interest groups perpetrate.

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## baksteen8168

kev mac said:


> Just a short while ago I was grooving in the afterglow of a great New England sports night.
> My life-long favorite Boston Red Sox had beaten the Huston Astros to even the ALCS at 1 game each.And on top of that my hometown heroes the New England Patriots pulled off another patented last minute victory.
> Then the anti vapeing lobby harshed my mellow.
> I saw for the first time a "Public service announcement in the form of a commercial misinforming me on how vapeing is worse than smoking because a hit of the vape pod is like smoking 20 cigarettes in terms of the amount of nicotine. This got my goat for sure.Then immediately following that another came on this time saying that Vapers are many many times more likely to switch to cigarettes. The anti smoking lobby once again playing fast and loose with the facts.I understand that we don't want minors to start vapeing as a fashion statement the same way I wouldn't want my children to drink or take drugs or smoke.But these are things as parents we must keep our youngsters away from.I as well as all my fellow forum mates know that vapeing saves lives and I resent the disservice and halve truths these special interest groups perpetrate.


One hit off a pod is like smoking 20 cigarettes??? Well... Then I say I am saving a hell of a lot of money. Thanks Vapeing!

What the hell are these idiots smoking? Or maybe they took too many puffs of their 20 cigarettes per hit pods...

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## Puff the Magic Dragon

While the use of nic salts may be useful for giving up smoking (higher nic with less throat hit) they do open the door to criticism regarding high nic doses particularly in children who seem to favour them.

I really don't see the advantages of using nic at a very high level. The only result is doing a "Silver" which feels terrible.

Maybe someone can help me out here. Does the effect of "too high" a dose of nic salts feel the same as with normal nic ?

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## baksteen8168

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> While the use of nic salts may be useful for giving up smoking (higher nic with less throat hit) they do open the door to criticism regarding high nic doses particularly in children who seem to favour them.
> 
> I really don't see the advantages of using nic at a very high level. The only result is doing a "Silver" which feels terrible.
> 
> Maybe someone can help me out here. Does the effect of "too high" a dose of nic salts feel the same as with normal nic ?


When I overdid the nic salts (being a noob to pods at the time) it felt the same as doing a "Silver". For me at least it wasn't any different to overdoing it with normal devices. I must also add that I only used it to kick the stinky habit. My pod devices now mainly sit unused.

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## Andre

Hopefully the truth will overcome in the end @kev mac. Keep grooving mate.

I lay the blame for the current negatives squarely on the shoulders of nic salts @Puff the Magic Dragon.

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## Raindance

Andre said:


> I lay the blame for the current negatives squarely on the shoulders of nic salts @Puff the Magic Dragon.


And of-course the fact that certain US states simply can not afford less people dying from smoking related diseases. Not limited to the US however, our own country relies heavily on income from "sin" tax on tobacco products. 

Regards

Reactions: Agree 6


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## Jag2018

Hi there.
These so called "public service" adverts should be called into question. Remember days when cigarette adverts told us that smoking was the "international passport to smoking pleasure"?

E.g. If a cell network company claims to be the fastest, then one could report them to the advertising complaints commission who could then force the company to prove their statement. If they can't then they would be obligated to remove the advert or maybe make an apology for deceiving the public or even be fined. This doesn't always occur in S.A but it has happened in the past where sufficient political/financial will had existed.

The problem exists because people still believe that what they see/hear on TV is the truth. 
IMO, TV is the largest, longest living, most effective and efficient means of propaganda. Everything that one sees or hears on TV should be taken with a pinch the proverbial. Everything.

Besides, only recently, mostly due the billion dollar industry that vaping has turned into, do we see numerous studies being conducted into the effects of vaping and the toxicity levels of e-liquids, sometimes by the big guns themselves i.e. BAT and Philip Morris. 

Remember the state of affairs of world we live in. Marijuana is legal, cigarettes are legal, but vaping is still under scrutiny. 
MJ will be regulated and taxed soon. Cigarettes are taxed to hell and gone already. All that's needed is a way to tax vaping, and vaping will no longer be a health issue.

I can happily state that vaping full time and getting off cigarettes has helped save my life, quite literally. 
I used to be a 3 pack a day smoker. If 3 draws of my Twisp satisfied my daily smoking needs, I would have noticed. Hahahahah!

All the best.
A.J

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## RainstormZA

Jag2018 said:


> Hi there.
> These so called "public service" adverts should be called into question. Remember days when cigarette adverts told us that smoking was the "international passport to smoking pleasure"?
> 
> E.g. If a cell network company claims to be the fastest, then one could report them to the advertising complaints commission who could then force the company to prove their statement. If they can't then they would be obligated to remove the advert or maybe make an apology for deceiving the public or even be fined. This doesn't always occur in S.A but it has happened in the past where sufficient political/financial will had existed.
> 
> The problem exists because people still believe that what they see/hear on TV is the truth.
> IMO, TV is the largest, longest living, most effective and efficient means of propaganda. Everything that one sees or hears on TV should be taken with a pinch the proverbial. Everything.
> 
> Besides, only recently, mostly due the billion dollar industry that vaping has turned into, do we see numerous studies being conducted into the effects of vaping and the toxicity levels of e-liquids, sometimes by the big guns themselves i.e. BAT and Philip Morris.
> 
> Remember the state of affairs of world we live in. Marijuana is legal, cigarettes are legal, but vaping is still under scrutiny.
> MJ will be regulated and taxed soon. Cigarettes are taxed to hell and gone already. All that's needed is a way to tax vaping, and vaping will no longer be a health issue.
> 
> I can happily state that vaping full time and getting off cigarettes has helped save my life, quite literally.
> I used to be a 3 pack a day smoker. If 3 draws of my Twisp satisfied my daily smoking needs, I would have noticed. Hahahahah!
> 
> All the best.
> A.J


Unfortunately you'll always have the odd person that blames cancer on vaping. I have such one and "D" is a smoker, yet won't see how much of a huge benefit vaping can be. I've explained everything and nothing can / will change her mindset. 

I used the explanation that made the most sense is that vaping is harm reduction, not prevention and even if you quit both, you still have a chance of getting cancer, no matter what you do to prevent. It's inevitable. My uncle passed away 2 years ago from stomach cancer - never smoked or vaped in his entire life.

There you go, that's the harsh truth and many people don't like hearing the truth, unfortunately.

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## RichJB

Jag2018 said:


> Besides, only recently, mostly due the billion dollar industry that vaping has turned into, do we see numerous studies being conducted into the effects of vaping and the toxicity levels of e-liquids, sometimes by the big guns themselves i.e. BAT and Philip Morris.



Big tobacco funds most of the studies on vaping, and every tobacco-funded study I've seen on vaping has been hugely positive. It's their own product and future, they are not likely to discredit it. This is why there is such skepticism around vaping research from bodies like the WHO. Big tobacco doesn't have the best record in scientific research. Still, it's heartening that their research results are being corroborated by neutral bodies like the RCP and PHE.

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## Jag2018

RainstormZA said:


> Unfortunately you'll always have the odd person that blames cancer on vaping. I have such one and "D" is a smoker, yet won't see how much of a huge benefit vaping can be. I've explained everything and nothing can / will change her mindset.
> 
> I used the explanation that made the most sense is that vaping is harm reduction, not prevention and even if you quit both, you still have a chance of getting cancer, no matter what you do to prevent. It's inevitable. My uncle passed away 2 years ago from stomach cancer - never smoked or vaped in his entire life.
> 
> There you go, that's the harsh truth and many people don't like hearing the truth, unfortunately.



You know, I usually reserve the explanations about the benefits of vaping for only the people that I truly care about and even then, some of these people are just too set in their ways to try something different, even if they do understand that it is actually healthier or less harmful.

I remember times before vaping was invented, when friends and family would try to explain to me that I was killing myself with cigarettes. 
I listened, I understood, I loved them for caring, but I didn't take any steps to change my ways.

Just BTW, when I eventually quit smoking and started vaping, the most memorable thing I experienced after 2 days or so was the heightened ability to smell things properly again. I felt like I had gained a super power. Hehehehehe! I was missing out on an entire world of scents and this world was amazing to me.

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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> While the use of nic salts may be useful for giving up smoking (higher nic with less throat hit) they do open the door to criticism regarding high nic doses particularly in children who seem to favour them.
> 
> I really don't see the advantages of using nic at a very high level. The only result is doing a "Silver" which feels terrible.
> 
> Maybe someone can help me out here. Does the effect of "too high" a dose of nic salts feel the same as with normal nic ?


I am a regular nic salt user, only time I felt a little high was when I dripped it on a RDA. Otherwise nic salts on a MTL device is the same as any other vaping device. Nic salts is particularly useful if u can't afford doing 10-20 ml a day and u want a bottle of juice to last for more than a month, or if you are like me and like to keep a low profile when vaping in public.

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## Jag2018

RichJB said:


> Big tobacco funds most of the studies on vaping, and every tobacco-funded study I've seen on vaping has been hugely positive. It's their own product and future, they are not likely to discredit it. This is why there is such skepticism around vaping research from bodies like the WHO. Big tobacco doesn't have the best record in scientific research. Still, it's heartening that their research results are being corroborated by neutral bodies like the RCP and PHE.



I always treat with skepticism the types of research that attempts to pit smoking against vaping hence drawing conclusions about what is good and bad, and lean more toward scientific papers that tabulate unbiased observations about mean toxicity, peaks, terminals, markers, chemical changes, known physiological effects and illness of chemical compounds and not necessarily vaping and nicotine.


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## baksteen8168

Jag2018 said:


> Just BTW, when I eventually quit smoking and started vaping, the most memorable thing I experienced after 2 days or so was the heightened ability to smell things properly again. I felt like I had gained a super power. Hehehehehe! I was missing out on an entire world of scents and this world was amazing to me.



Don't forget the other added benefit of everything tasting better.

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## Jag2018

baksteen8168 said:


> Don't forget the other added benefit of everything tasting better.


Hahahaha!
I was going to mention that as well but I tried to keep the reply brief.
Taste and smell. 
But sometimes that was not a good thing. hehe! 
E.g. ...I love horses and ride often. Try a stable on a hot day just after getting your sense of taste and smell back.

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## RainstormZA

Jag2018 said:


> You know, I usually reserve the explanations about the benefits of vaping for only the people that I truly care about and even then, some of these people are just too set in their ways to try something different, even if they do understand that it is actually healthier or less harmful.
> 
> I remember times before vaping was invented, when friends and family would try to explain to me that I was killing myself with cigarettes.
> I listened, I understood, I loved them for caring, but I didn't take any steps to change my ways.
> 
> Just BTW, when I eventually quit smoking and started vaping, the most memorable thing I experienced after 2 days or so was the heightened ability to smell things properly again. I felt like I had gained a super power. Hehehehehe! I was missing out on an entire world of scents and this world was amazing to me.


Indeed, my friend told me I was crazy when I smelled stuff she couldn't. I was like wtf, because she kinda tried to insult me by saying it was all in my head. 

Mymom is actually very supportive, the other day I apologised for coming with her smelling like an ashtray bec of the friend and her mom who are smokers. She said now we know what it smells like and why it doesn't smell great.

My mom would prefer me to vape instead of smoking bec my Vape smells great and I don't smell like an ashtray. She's also seen a marked improvement in my health and my blood pressure is stable. She loves my strawberry juice mix, lemon cream custard mix but hadn't smelled the others yet. Plus bonus is i save 1/4 of costs compared to when I was smoking.

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## RainstormZA

Jag2018 said:


> Hahahaha!
> I was going to mention that as well but I tried to keep the reply brief.
> Taste and smell.
> But sometimes that was not a good thing. hehe!
> E.g. ...I love horses and ride often. Try a stable on a hot day just after getting your sense of taste and smell back.


Bwhahahahaha horses smell way better than cows. And I rather go muck out an horse stable than clean a dairy.

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## Jag2018

RainstormZA said:


> Indeed, my friend told me I was crazy when I smelled stuff she couldn't. I was like wtf, because she kinda tried to insult me by saying it was all in my head.
> 
> Mymom is actually very supportive, the other day I apologised for coming with her smelling like an ashtray bec of the friend and her mom who are smokers. She said now we know what it smells like and why it doesn't smell great.
> 
> My mom would prefer me to vape instead of smoking bec my Vape smells great and I don't smell like an ashtray. She's also seen a marked improvement in my health and my blood pressure is stable. She loves my strawberry juice mix, lemon cream custard mix but hadn't smelled the others yet. Plus bonus is i save 1/4 of costs compared to when I was smoking.



You know!
Now you're reminding me of things. Hahaha! 

I also went around apologizing to my family and friends for making them tolerate the stink of my cigarettes for 19 years.
Nowadays, the smell of cigarettes make me feel nauseated. I have nothing against smokers. I just cannot believe that I smelled like that for such a long time and didn't see a problem with it.

Speaking of health, I was always very healthy, even while I smoked. 
I rode the Argus 3 times and cycle approximately 100km a weekend and 80km a day, 3 times a week, on the Wattbike.
When I quit smoking, I almost could not believe how my performance improved. I had to tell myself to slow down before I injure myself. hahahah!

My Mom thinks that my vapour smells like incense sticks. hehe.

My cigarette bill used to be R3850 per month. I know, stupid stupid stupid. 
I mix my own liquids now, so vaping costs me about R1000 every 3 months or so. Now that's a saving!

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## Jag2018

RainstormZA said:


> Bwhahahahaha horses smell way better than cows. And I rather go muck out an horse stable than clean a dairy.



Agh!
I will take your word for it. Hahahahaha!

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## RichJB

Jag2018 said:


> I always treat with skepticism the types of research that attempts to pit smoking against vaping hence drawing conclusions about what is good and bad, and lean more toward scientific papers that tabulate unbiased observations about mean toxicity, peaks, terminals, markers, chemical changes, known physiological effects and illness of chemical compounds and not necessarily vaping and nicotine.



My concern is that I don't know when they're being unbiased as I'm not part of the research team. So I'm wary of all research where there is a financial motive. Which basically comes down to all research, period. There is a financial motive to both discredit and to promote vaping, so the two sides cancel each other out. That leaves us with the "scientific consensus" as perhaps the most accurate guide. Atm that is looking promising for vaping and hopefully it turns out to be accurate.

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## RainstormZA

Jag2018 said:


> Agh!
> I will take your word for it. Hahahahaha!


I'll post you a fresh cow patty. You'll probably get sick after smelling it. Lol.

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## Jag2018

RichJB said:


> My concern is that I don't know when they're being unbiased as I'm not part of the research team. So I'm wary of all research where there is a financial motive. Which basically comes down to all research, period. There is a financial motive to both discredit and to promote vaping, so the two sides cancel each other out. That leaves us with the "scientific consensus" as perhaps the most accurate guide. Atm that is looking promising for vaping and hopefully it turns out to be accurate.



If you are scientifically inclined I can refer you to a few journals/text books that do not deal with vaping and therefore have no bias. 

It is untrue that all research is financially motivated.

Many of the texts are old and deal specifically with temporal change in chemical compounds due to temperature and other stressors and were done as forms for general study of elements and compounds and as dissertations for PhD studies and use in large industry and SHEQ processes. There are many more recent papers as well that do not deal with vaping, but do deal with chemicals that we vapers consume.

My views of vaping are mainly based on how the human body copes with the alderhyde coumpounds, especially formalderhyde compounds, that are created when GLY aka VG, and PG are subjected to heat.

Research on diacetyl, for e.g. is widely known nowadays, and that research was done long before vaping was even an idea.


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## Resistance

these tobacco and government bodies are losing revenue hence they sway towards anti- vaping, because they can't also promote smoking.
Ignore it and do what you do,if you can win over just one persons perception to vaping then you achieved something great...
helping your fellow man ,helping him/her save his life and saving yours along with it

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## Jag2018

Resistance said:


> these tobacco and government bodies are losing revenue hence they sway towards anti- vaping, because they can't also promote smoking.
> Ignore it and do what you do,if you can win over just one persons perception to vaping then you achieved something great...
> helping your fellow man ,helping him/her save his life and saving yours along with it



Well said.

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## Jag2018

RainstormZA said:


> I'll post you a fresh cow patty. You'll probably get sick after smelling it. Lol.



Oh my lawd!
Please don't, I promise I believe you. Hahahahah!

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## RichJB

Resistance said:


> these tobacco and government bodies are losing revenue hence they sway towards anti- vaping



If it was about lost revenue, govts would have unbanned drugs long ago. How much money are they losing every year by drug street corner cash sales going untaxed? It must be trillions of dollars globally. Keeping a product legal and taxing it is far more profitable than attempting to ban it. If govt was worried about losing tobacco revenue to vaping, they wouldn't ban vaping. They'd tax it. And are already doing so in places like Portugal, Italy, Philadelphia, and others.

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## Resistance

RichJB said:


> If it was about lost revenue, govts would have unbanned drugs long ago. How much money are they losing every year by drug street corner cash sales going untaxed? It must be trillions of dollars globally. Keeping a product legal and taxing it is far more profitable than attempting to ban it. If govt was worried about losing tobacco revenue to vaping, they wouldn't ban vaping. They'd tax it. And are already doing so in places like Portugal, Italy, Philadelphia, and others.



you have a point to a certain degree...
when they legalized the Maryjane they still did not have rules or should I say laws in place.
for that they use precedents in which case there aren't any.
so they could not even stop a minor from smoking weed.
and this happened in front of me. Then they said do it in your house.
there is nothing before vaping to make it legal or illegal and there's no tax precedent on vaping.
What they can do is tax he store that sells the vape products.
now if there were rules before this they could tax vaping.(mods,juice,parts etc)
the billions they loose on other illegal drugs they make up by selling it back on the black market when they raid.
They might even burn a few thousands worth of drugs on tv but not all and that to show us they are doing something.
Imagine this great first world country banning vaping?
no...,they would rather promote something they can make money on 
,but what do I know???

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## RichJB

Which first world country are you talking about? And what are they promoting that they can make money on?


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## Adephi

I have so far developed my own "conspiracy theories" about the government stance regarding vaping and why they are trying to bring it down.

If you look through this list you will find all assets declared by MP's for 2017. You will find Pravin Gordhan and Pieter Mulder have got generous shares in British American Tobacco. A search on any news site will show the links of the EFF and ANC members to various cigarette syndicates, legal and illegal. So if vaping increases, tobacco industry decreases they lose money out of their pocket. So why wouldn't they use their positions of power to influence the market in order to save their pockets? They do it on a daily basis by now.

And then why would the _Tobacco Alcohol and Gambling Advisory, Advocacy and Action Group _be against vaping? Same reason all Cancer groups are against it. They are a NPO and thus stand for grants from government and the Lottery. If less people smoke tobacco, less people get sick, and less money gets handed down. Just look at the resume of Peter Ucko, CEO of the TAG group. All business and administration qualifications. No medical qualifications. It's all about the money.

But like I said, its just conspiracy theories I have cooked up on my travels through the interwebs. I might be way off the mark, but there might just be some truth in my suspicions.

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## Resistance

Adephi said:


> I have so far developed my own "conspiracy theories" about the government stance regarding vaping and why they are trying to bring it down.
> 
> If you look through this list you will find all assets declared by MP's for 2017. You will find Pravin Gordhan and Pieter Mulder have got generous shares in British American Tobacco. A search on any news site will show the links of the EFF and ANC members to various cigarette syndicates, legal and illegal. So if vaping increases, tobacco industry decreases they lose money out of their pocket. So why wouldn't they use their positions of power to influence the market in order to save their pockets? They do it on a daily basis by now.
> 
> And then why would the _Tobacco Alcohol and Gambling Advisory, Advocacy and Action Group _be against vaping? Same reason all Cancer groups are against it. They are a NPO and thus stand for grants from government and the Lottery. If less people smoke tobacco, less people get sick, and less money gets handed down. Just look at the resume of Peter Ucko, CEO of the TAG group. All business and administration qualifications. No medical qualifications. It's all about the money.
> 
> But like I said, its just conspiracy theories I have cooked up on my travels through the interwebs. I might be way off the mark, but there might just be some truth in my suspicions.


Well done to you sir for finding this, to prove we both can't be wrong

Sent from my X30 using Tapatalk

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## Resistance

RichJB said:


> Which first world country are you talking about? And what are they promoting that they can make money on?


This third world country claiming to be first world

Sent from my X30 using Tapatalk

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## RichJB

If govt was in big tobacco's payroll, they'd be making the anti-smoking laws more lenient, not more stringent. Govt would be opposing public smoking/advertising bans, plain packaging, etc, not promoting it. Apart from that, the "big tobacco wants vaping banned" conspiracy theory fails the logic test in several areas:

1) PMI have spent $4.5bn setting up their smokeless products division, and other tobacco companies have spent heavily too. Big tobacco didn't get big by throwing that sort of money at a product line they want banned.

2) The bulk of pro-vaping research is funded by big tobacco. Supporting vaping's harm reduction claims, if they wanted vaping banned, would be an odd use of corporate funds. It would be like Coke funding research which concludes that Pepsi actually is better.

3) Five of the six biggest vaping brands in the US belong to big tobacco, JUUL is the only one that doesn't. Again, big tobacco didn't get big by trying to have its own products banned.

4) Tobacco companies bid aggressively for, and bought, Hon Lik's vaporiser patent. Again, paying big money for a patent when they intend the product to be banned doesn't make any sense at all. You only buy a patent when you think that the product has a lucrative future.

5) Big tobacco opposed the SanFran flavour ban, RJ Reynolds spent millions lobbying against it. If undermining vaping was the goal, big tobacco would have supported the ban. A flavour ban hurts vaping more than it hurts tobacco.

So despite the vaping community's claims that big tobacco is trying to have vaping banned, I'm just not seeing it. Nor am I seeing the allegations that govt is favouring big tobacco. Scott Gottlieb announced that he wants the FDA to reduce nicotine in cigarettes to non-addictive levels. That single announcement wiped billions off the tobacco company valuations overnight, a blow from which they still haven't fully recovered. If that is the level of service that big tobacco is getting from someone allegedly on their payroll, they should ask for a refund.

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## Resistance

Dude I am not here to argue with you but if you can prove to me I am wrong then do it. Till then I will be right.
they bann tobacco related products.but they don't make it illegal.
now dagha is legal...why? they have seen the revenue in legalizing it and taking control of it to a certain extent. That means they don't have to burn a few bags of dagga on TV to show you they doing something about it and hiding the mother load and then selling it on the black market.
they do the same with guns.
you give in your gun was the rule a few years back then a.week later you see ten year olds with guns roaming the streets.
I can't also make you see what's going on.
you have to see around you to see what's happening.
And the sad part is those that have everything and think "it doesn't bother me because I have money and worldly things" will wake up when shit hits.the.fan. till then we that have to save what we earned while not being properly paid because there is always a cheaper option to Quality, have to live in the real world and face these facts everyday.
Take a day off out of the suburbs and come Vape with me.We'll become the best of friends after that.I show you things you never new existed.

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## Resistance

they still use tobacco related products.
most nicotine is extracted from tobacco so they still will be sin taxed.
its when you extract from the tomato and other edible plants that you don't have to pay sin tax,bit how.many crops will you have to forfeit if tobacco contains more nicotine than a tomato plant.
and yes they are from the same genus.tomato and tobacco plants are related.,bit everybody does not know that either

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## Resistance

I hope I have upset.a few vapers ,now forgive and forget and let's be friends again

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## Resistance

Damn this argument is almost.like someone trying to persuade me Airwolf was real

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## Adephi

Resistance said:


> Damn this argument is almost.like someone trying to persuade me Airwolf was real



But it was! Didn't the owner of Checkers or something bought the actual chopper back in the 80's and just repainted it?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Adephi

Resistance said:


> Dude I am not here to argue with you



One thing I learned about @RichJB, he doesn't argue. He just have a very unique view on things and keeps an open and constructive debate. It can easily be seen as arguing but rather learn from him.

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## Resistance

Adephi said:


> One thing I learned about @RichJB, he doesn't argue. He just have a very unique view on things and keeps an open and constructive debate. It can easily be seen as arguing but rather learn from him.


Yes to some points I agree.
But one thing about Resistance is he doesn't want to be told he is wrong if the evidence is clear he is not.
How come tobacco is not deemed illegal..because of the revenue.
Thats why there were laws and fines put in place.
They thought they were going to gain more by implementing fines.
That is why they are forcing the vaping scene to fall under the same tobacco laws,there are already precedents in place for fines and stuff.
And if you still want to argue...why when you buy vape gear it states that it contains noctine???
Because they trying to force hardware under the same rule.
Some juices are labelled 0%nicotine bit the warning still states 'contains nicotine'
Contradictory ???
Its not the same so why force it to be the same.
If petrol and diesel were the same why don't you fill a petrol car with diesel?
Or even with natural gas?
As both of the other substances can and will power a car that looks exactly the same on the outside.
So tell me why you would fill your diesel car with petrol if it has the same purpose to power and propell your car forward???

It is still low what they doing even though some companies have there bread buttered both ways.
Who says it is not the smaller tobacco companies that is leading this issue,because they have more to loose?...if all the bigger companies are already gaining market share in the vaping and H.N.B scene
That is the way of the world though.isn't it?
Still come down to the same thing... I'm a vaper and proud of it. And I don't see why we should argue on this forum if the facts is a google away.
Then there is also the propaganda thing where they falsify info to make us think were wrong.
I also normally do not take the first article I read and believe it,that would not make me an Analyst.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance

Adephi said:


> One thing I learned about @RichJB, he doesn't argue. He just have a very unique view on things and keeps an open and constructive debate. It can easily be seen as arguing but rather learn from him.


Sorry bro. I refuse to be taught wrong,bit you may do as you wish.you can learn all you want ,but at the end of day if you weren't taught right how right are you?
Sorry to offend you,but I can't stand for something I don't believe in.

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## Resistance

https://www.esquire.com/lifestyle/health/news/a44600/is-vaping-regulated/
The government...we have been trying to get smoking under the same umbrella as smoking so it is easier to screw vapers since forever...and also to tax the big companies that's got a vaping department...check the link
If its tobacco they can tax it if not they screwed

Reactions: Like 2


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## Resistance

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...-cigarettes-treasury-NHS-autumn-budget-vaping
This is UK.and you know SA will follow they not original

Reactions: Like 2


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## Resistance

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6929980/e-cig-tax-vape-treasury/

Reactions: Like 2


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## Resistance

https://vaping360.com/vape-news/69151/u-k-government-considering-a-sin-tax-on-vapes/

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## Resistance

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/69195...-sin-tax-to-help-raise-40million-for-the-nhs/

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## Resistance

http://www.courant.com/politics/hc-pol-vaping-tax-20170911-story.html

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## RichJB

Sin taxes on vaping is an easy win for govt. Vapers are a tiny and generally wealthy minority. The 97% of the population who don't vape have no problem with vapers shouldering more of the tax burden. Nicotine addiction is deemed a vice so mainstream society is fine with it being sin taxed.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Chukin'Vape

kev mac said:


> Just a short while ago I was grooving in the afterglow of a great New England sports night.
> My life-long favorite Boston Red Sox had beaten the Huston Astros to even the ALCS at 1 game each.And on top of that my hometown heroes the New England Patriots pulled off another patented last minute victory.
> Then the anti vapeing lobby harshed my mellow.
> I saw for the first time a "Public service announcement in the form of a commercial misinforming me on how vapeing is worse than smoking because a hit of the vape pod is like smoking 20 cigarettes in terms of the amount of nicotine. This got my goat for sure.Then immediately following that another came on this time saying that Vapers are many many times more likely to switch to cigarettes. The anti smoking lobby once again playing fast and loose with the facts.I understand that we don't want minors to start vapeing as a fashion statement the same way I wouldn't want my children to drink or take drugs or smoke.But these are things as parents we must keep our youngsters away from.I as well as all my fellow forum mates know that vapeing saves lives and I resent the disservice and halve truths these special interest groups perpetrate.



I checked this add on facebook yesterday!!! Was also disgusted.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Resistance

RichJB said:


> Sin taxes on vaping is an easy win for govt. Vapers are a tiny and generally wealthy minority. The 97% of the population who don't vape have no problem with vapers shouldering more of the tax burden. Nicotine addiction is deemed a vice so mainstream society is fine with it being sin taxed.


Sin tax is easy yes. Easy if there is laws in place and with vaping there isn't right now,
But if it falls under smoking laws then its a done deal.
They can also file for its own laws but that will take longer and I don't think vapers will allow it that easy no matter their financial status or group staus

Reactions: Like 1


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## RainstormZA

RichJB said:


> Sin taxes on vaping is an easy win for govt. Vapers are a tiny and generally wealthy minority. The 97% of the population who don't vape have no problem with vapers shouldering more of the tax burden. Nicotine addiction is deemed a vice so mainstream society is fine with it being sin taxed.


Wealthy? You don't say. Lol.

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## kev mac

Puff the Magic Dragon said:


> While the use of nic salts may be useful for giving up smoking (higher nic with less throat hit) they do open the door to criticism regarding high nic doses particularly in children who seem to favour them.
> 
> I really don't see the advantages of using nic at a very high level. The only result is doing a "Silver" which feels terrible.
> 
> Maybe someone can help me out here. Does the effect of "too high" a dose of nic salts feel the same as with normal nic ?


I don't know a thing about nice salts,what's the deal with them?


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## kev mac

Andre said:


> Hopefully the truth will overcome in the end @kev mac. Keep grooving mate.
> 
> I lay the blame for the current negatives squarely on the shoulders of nic salts @Puff the Magic Dragon.


I think the anti smoking lobby is right concerning youth vaping.Kids are using vapeing as a trend or fashion statement as youngsters are prone to do.Comming of age in the late 60s early 70s we were getting into more dangerous activities because our parents had no clue what was going on in the streets them.Luckily surviving those crazy days gave me insight that helped me as a parent.Schools and parents need to work together as vapeing is an adult activity and in my opinion should be seen as a smoking cessation tool.I blame the parents mainly if a kid takes up vapeing unless the kid goes to extreme measures to hide it .Vendors that sell to minors are irresponsible to say the least and are hurting their business and legitimate vapers like us.That said the anti smoking lobby should be honest in their endeavors and if they really cared about it would support vapeing as a cessation tool.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## kev mac

RainstormZA said:


> Unfortunately you'll always have the odd person that blames cancer on vaping. I have such one and "D" is a smoker, yet won't see how much of a huge benefit vaping can be. I've explained everything and nothing can / will change her mindset.
> 
> I used the explanation that made the most sense is that vaping is harm reduction, not prevention and even if you quit both, you still have a chance of getting cancer, no matter what you do to prevent. It's inevitable. My uncle passed away 2 years ago from stomach cancer - never smoked or vaped in his entire life.
> 
> There you go, that's the harsh truth and many people don't like hearing the truth, unfortunately.


I also believe vapeing has improved my health and until my Cardiologist and G.P. advise against it I'll continue to vape.That I enjoy it so much is an added bonus!

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## Resistance

@kev mac I would rather have my child Vape then smoke.if it means I am a bad parent then it be so.If you see the kids on the streets nowadays you would understand what I mean.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## kev mac

Resistance said:


> these tobacco and government bodies are losing revenue hence they sway towards anti- vaping, because they can't also promote smoking.
> Ignore it and do what you do,if you can win over just one persons perception to vaping then you achieved something great...
> helping your fellow man ,helping him/her save his life and saving yours along with it


Also it creates a revenue resource and job security .

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## kev mac

Resistance said:


> @kev mac I would rather have my child Vape then smoke.if it means I am a bad parent then it be so.If you see the kids on the streets nowadays you would understand what I mean.


I won't tell anyone how to raise a child but if my kid gets caught vapeing in school or abusing cell phone privileges for that matter there's he'll to pay back at home.In my home smoking, drinking or drugs and vapeing are all activities that can be indulged after he or she has reached the age of consent and no longer resides under the roof I provide.These are just my rules of course, the tail doesn't wag the dog.

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## kev mac

Resistance said:


> you have a point to a certain degree...
> when they legalized the Maryjane they still did not have rules or should I say laws in place.
> for that they use precedents in which case there aren't any.
> so they could not even stop a minor from smoking weed.
> and this happened in front of me. Then they said do it in your house.
> there is nothing before vaping to make it legal or illegal and there's no tax precedent on vaping.
> What they can do is tax he store that sells the vape products.
> now if there were rules before this they could tax vaping.(mods,juice,parts etc)
> the billions they loose on other illegal drugs they make up by selling it back on the black market when they raid.
> They might even burn a few thousands worth of drugs on tv but not all and that to show us they are doing something.
> Imagine this great first world country banning vaping?
> no...,they would rather promote something they can make money on
> ,but what do I know???


We're getting into complex matters here.With due respect I have a hard time believing the government (at least here in the States) is reselling confiscated drugs.The impetuous for keeping them illegal is job security in law enforcement along with the revenues provided from government grants and task forces created to fight the sham known as the "War on drugs".
We can point also to the U.S. involvement a while back that created the Contra Affair a.k.a. guns for drugs.Remember Ollie North?Or the experiment 30 or so years ago in England where addicts in a problemed area in London were provided with a daily "fix" of heroin to great success .There's not enough space to go on though.So I'll end here by stealing your phrase, "but what do I know"?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Resistance

kev mac said:


> I won't tell anyone how to raise a child but if my kid gets caught vapeing in school or abusing cell phone privileges for that matter there's he'll to pay back at home.In my home smoking, drinking or drugs and vapeing are all activities that can be indulged after he or she has reached the age of consent and no longer resides under the roof I provide.These are just my rules of course, the tail doesn't wag the dog.



I fully agree with you,but you were once young and so was I.guess what...we both ended up smoking and as with all members that reads and agrees and dislikes and relates...show me someone that smoked that started after the tender age of 21.
We are parents but we can't always control our kids and look over them,maybe in a perfect world we could fully trust them(and I am not faulting anyone's children) but we don't see what goes on when our children leaves the house.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Resistance

True 


kev mac said:


> We're getting into complex matters here.With due respect I have a hard time believing the government (at least here in the States) is reselling confiscated drugs.The impetuous for keeping them illegal is job security in law enforcement along with the revenues provided from government grants and task forces created to fight the sham known as the "War on drugs".
> We can point also to the U.S. involvement a while back that created the Contra Affair a.k.a. guns for drugs.Remember Ollie North?Or the experiment 30 or so years ago in England where addicts in a problemed area in London were provided with a daily "fix" of heroin to great success .There's not enough space to go on though.So I'll end here by stealing your phrase, "but what do I know"?


You were there. I wasn't.
'But what do I know'

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance

kev mac said:


> We're getting into complex matters here.With due respect I have a hard time believing the government (at least here in the States) is reselling confiscated drugs.The impetuous for keeping them illegal is job security in law enforcement along with the revenues provided from government grants and task forces created to fight the sham known as the "War on drugs".
> We can point also to the U.S. involvement a while back that created the Contra Affair a.k.a. guns for drugs.Remember Ollie North?Or the experiment 30 or so years ago in England where addicts in a problemed area in London were provided with a daily "fix" of heroin to great success .There's not enough space to go on though.So I'll end here by stealing your phrase, "but what do I know"?


Only one??? I Gave a decent read when I commented. About ten links I think
What did they gain and what is it worth today.

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## Resistance

I guess I am arguing with ignorance this week and its all the old guys.dislike me if you have to but one day you will say that guy...Resistance was right.you might be older but certainly not wiser.
Sorry you win I'm out of this argument.I was taught not to argue with golden oldies

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## baksteen8168



Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 3


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## Resistance

Last time I checked the unemployment rate in ZA it said yes revenue,resource and job security for unemployed south africans.



kev mac said:


> Also it creates a revenue resource and job security .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance

baksteen8168 said:


>


@baksteen move up please I'm on the side line now

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## baksteen8168

Resistance said:


> @baksteen move up please I'm on the side line now


@Resistance - Shhhh... I'm watching the drama unfold

Look, I hate to get involved in drama... But here's my 2c

Everyone here makes a valid point... @Resistance point borders on conspiracy theory, but it is a point to ponder none the less. The big picture here is that even when presented with facts, the government (be it US or SA) are still kicking against vaping. Whether their push back is because of financial or health reasons, we wont know. Personally, I think it has to do with them not getting a big enough slice of the vaping pie (financially). But I am not in politics so I wouldn't know the real reason why they are so against it.

What does this add mean to me? To me it means that more potential converts will shy away from vaping because the government told them on TV that its worse than smoking, and that to me is very sad. 

I smoked for 16 years, dropped smoking and vaped exclusively for 3 years and eventually quit vaping too. A year later, due to stress and stupidity, I lit up a cigarette and started smoking again. Did that for 6 months and thankfully pod devices got me off the stinkies again. I tried my old go to setups, but it just didn't cut it. Now I'm vaping full time again on basically the same setups I used when vaping the first time. While I fully understand @Andre view that high nic pod systems are to blame, I also see their place in vaping as a smoking cessation device. (even though we are not supposed to refer to it as such)

Their negative adds and studies doesn't mean a thing to me, mainly because I know how my body felt when smoking and I am living proof that I feel a hell of a lot better when vaping. Is vaping healthy? Hell no, but it IS a hell of a lot healthier than smoking.

My 2c...

Reactions: Like 8


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## kev mac

Resistance said:


> I fully agree with you,but you were once young and so was I.guess what...we both ended up smoking and as with all members that reads and agrees and dislikes and relates...show me someone that smoked that started after the tender age of 21.
> We are parents but we can't always control our kids and look over them,maybe in a perfect world we could fully trust them(and I am not faulting anyone's children) but we don't see what goes on when our children leaves the house.


I don't know your age but I'm in my 60s and when I grew up the world was a totally different place where smoking was practically a right of passage. I remember watching t.v. shows where doctors smoked in the operating room.Our parents at the time had no idea what we were doing because the radical change in the youth culture was beyond their comprehension .The world was changing like it never had before or since .Today in the information age it's all out there,computers, cell phones keep us in contact and up on things before they change.The problem as I see it is it is very common for children to grow up with one parent ,and how we as a society turned our children into their own center of the universe.Many,not all let kids raise themselves and then act shocked when the child gets in trouble.On YouTube I've seen videos of mothers fighting and bullying along side their daughters ,it's unbelievable .
So before this episode of Dr.Phil goes on too much longer I will reiterate these are only my views,I may disagree but I won't tell anyone how to raise a child. What I've done worked,it wasn't easy .I have made plenty of mistakes ,I'm just thankful and proud that none of them affected my child.P.S. I know many people personally that started smoking after 21.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 5


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## kev mac

Resistance said:


> Last time I checked the unemployment rate in ZA it said yes revenue,resource and job security for unemployed south africans.


@Resistance ,I think you misunderstood my remark.What I mean is the people that make their living working for Anti Tobacco group welcome new things like vapeing because it's one more thing to rally against. And big tobacco and pharmaceutical companies welcome these groups into the fold cause it furthers their agenda .Thus the large donations to these groups and with said donations comes the added job security ,puts food on the table .Simple human nature.Whats disingenuous is vapers are against tobacco use just like they are, aren't they ignoring .the health issue?
And while I don't doubt that all confiscated drugs won't make it to the fire,I think that's more on a small percentage of bad cops.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## kev mac

Resistance said:


> I guess I am arguing with ignorance this week and its all the old guys.dislike me if you have to but one day you will say that guy...Resistance was right.you might be older but certainly not wiser.
> Sorry you win I'm out of this argument.I was taught not to argue with golden oldies


@Resistance I thought what we were having was a discourse,an exchange of views and ideas.
And while I certainly may have different ideas on things I don't "dislike you"for a difference of opinion ,that is a big part of what we do on this great forum that allows me the privilege of talking to interesting people from around the world .
However I do take offense to being called "ignorant "because my take on things differs from yours.
As far as who is older and wiser,the members reading these posts can make up their minds on that.
I'm out!

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## RainstormZA

kev mac said:


> I don't know your age but I'm in my 60s and when I grew up the world was a totally different place where smoking was practically a right of passage. I remember watching t.v. shows where doctors smoked in the operating room.Our parents at the time had no idea what we were doing because the radical change in the youth culture was beyond their comprehension .The world was changing like it never had before or since .Today in the information age it's all out there,computers, cell phones keep us in contact and up on things before they change.The problem as I see it is it is very common for children to grow up with one parent ,and how we as a society turned our children into their own center of the universe.Many,not all let kids raise themselves and then act shocked when the child gets in trouble.On YouTube I've seen videos of mothers fighting and bullying along side their daughters ,it's unbelievable .
> So before this episode of Dr.Phil goes on too much longer I will reiterate these are only my views,I may disagree but I won't tell anyone how to raise a child. What I've done worked,it wasn't easy .I have made plenty of mistakes ,I'm just thankful and proud that none of them affected my child.P.S. I know many people personally that started smoking after 21.


I was one of them, I started at 21.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance

I was out long ago.
You came with a post.we gave our views you turned around and argued with people that was on your side.
People don't do that, yet you think it OK.
That's what I call ignorance. You don't turn on someone on your side


baksteen8168 said:


> @Resistance - Shhhh... I'm watching the drama unfold
> 
> Look, I hate to get involved in drama... But here's my 2c
> 
> Everyone here makes a valid point... @Resistance point borders on conspiracy theory, but it is a point to ponder none the less. The big picture here is that even when presented with facts, the government (be it US or SA) are still kicking against vaping. Whether their push back is because of financial or health reasons, we wont know. Personally, I think it has to do with them not getting a big enough slice of the vaping pie (financially). But I am not in politics so I wouldn't know the real reason why they are so against it.
> 
> What does this add mean to me? To me it means that more potential converts will shy away from vaping because the government told them on TV that its worse than smoking, and that to me is very sad.
> 
> I smoked for 16 years, dropped smoking and vaped exclusively for 3 years and eventually quit vaping too. A year later, due to stress and stupidity, I lit up a cigarette and started smoking again. Did that for 6 months and thankfully pod devices got me off the stinkies again. I tried my old go to setups, but it just didn't cut it. Now I'm vaping full time again on basically the same setups I used when vaping the first time. While I fully understand @Andre view that high nic pod systems are to blame, I also see their place in vaping as a smoking cessation device. (even though we are not supposed to refer to it as such)
> 
> Their negative adds and studies doesn't mean a thing to me, mainly because I know how my body felt when smoking and I am living proof that I feel a hell of a lot better when vaping. Is vaping healthy? Hell no, but it IS a hell of a lot healthier than smoking.
> 
> My 2c...


That was my view thanks for sharing your popcorn with me.
I feel he same and that is the reason I would rather catch my kids vaping than smoking.
It has nothing to do with how they are brought up,or how much they earn one day. It has to do with the trap we were caught up in and what it did to us while smoking and I would not want that for my kids. My Dad warned me about smoking and I smoked for over twenty years and from all that I decided if my kids want to vape I will allow it rather than having them stand on a random corner and smoke a stinkie

Reactions: Like 1


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## RainstormZA

Resistance said:


> I was out long ago.
> You came with a post.we gave our views you turned around and argued with people that was on your side.
> People don't do that, yet you think it OK.
> That's what I call ignorance. You don't turn on someone on your side
> 
> That was my view thanks for sharing your popcorn with me.
> I feel he same and that is the reason I would rather catch my kids vaping than smoking.
> It has nothing to do with how they are brought up,or how much they earn one day. It has to do with the trap we were caught up in and what it did to us while smoking and I would not want that for my kids. My Dad warned me about smoking and I smoked for over twenty years and from all that I decided if my kids want to vape I will allow it rather than having them stand on a random corner and smoke a stinkie



Exactly. I much rather catch my kids vaping than smoking. Not that I have any but if there were teenagers, they're better off vaping than smoking.


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## jm10

RainstormZA said:


> Exactly. I much rather catch my kids vaping than smoking. Not that I have any but if there were teenagers, they're better off vaping than smoking.



Couldnt agree more. I was the worst little shit on earth, i always wonder how my parents put up with me not to mention my principle so i will discipline and teach my child right and wrong but I’m not going to be a hypocrite. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Resistance

jm10 said:


> Couldnt agree more. I was the worst little shit on earth, i always wonder how my parents put up with me not to mention my principle so i will discipline and teach my child right and wrong but I’m not going to be a hypocrite.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes bro! we can teach and direct our kids and steer them in the right path but we can't hold their hands forever.
And if you look at how many things you didn't do right even after you were told it was wrong. You alone can draw that conclusion on what you would rather have your kids do.
It has nothing to do with raising them right,that you can do throughout your lifetime,but it has to do with them making the right decision.
The supposedly gateway drug people fought against is now legal and I would still rather have my kids vape.!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## RichJB

I would rather not have my kids (if I had them) abuse any chemical substances. The idea that they _have to_ abuse something, that vaping is the least harmful one to pick, and that government _must_ therefore promote vaping, is a bit absurd imo. Govt is against all substance abuse. They don't have to pick one to promote and thereby reject the rest.

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## Resistance

So now my next question is how do you as a government have anti-marijuana laws and suddenly make it legal ?.so they can try and control it and profit.
Then I will still allow my child to vape instead of him going outside and end up smoking legal marijuana and legal cigarettes.
And if it makes me a bad parent once again to point it out again. If any of my kids smoke marijuana just because its legal ,I will slap him with a vape mod

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## jm10

RichJB said:


> I would rather not have my kids (if I had them) abuse any chemical substances. The idea that they _have to_ abuse something, that vaping is the least harmful one to pick, and that government _must_ therefore promote vaping, is a bit absurd imo. Govt is against all substance abuse. They don't have to pick one to promote and thereby reject the rest.



Lol i cant take any sentence with seriousness when it has our government in it. 

Govt is against all substance abuse yet they make the green stuff legal to please who exactly? Ca ching for some one.

Look i like to have a drink put ban the stuff and it will reduce road deaths in the country over night, question is why would they not ban drinking if its for the greater good? 

Yeah our government 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 4


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## RainstormZA

Resistance said:


> So now my next question is how do you as a government have anti-marijuana laws and suddenly make it legal ?.so they can try and control it and profit.
> Then I will still allow my child to vape instead of him going outside and end up smoking legal marijuana and legal cigarettes.
> And if it makes me a bad parent once again to point it out again. If any of my kids smoke marijuana just because its legal ,I will slap him with a vape mod


Only one reason - medicinal use. I don't smoke it. I vape it, ONLY at night, to enable me to sleep properly. I have Raynaud's disease and it's horrible, but with that, it's helped me a lot to get my sleep back. I suffered a year of not being able to sleep a normal pattern due to severe itchiness. 

I've had 3 weeks of good sleep and as much as my mom is not nice, she's seen how much of a difference it has made.

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## RichJB

Allowing substances makes the most sense from a governance point of view. It allows govt to regulate, monitor and control the product. People were going to smoke marijuana whether it was legal or not. Making it legal just allows more control and takes the industry out of the hands of criminals. If govt taxes it, all the better. Because it is then a voluntary tax unlike VAT or income tax. If you don't want to pay the tax on marijuana then exercise your democratic right not to smoke it. Sorted.

Banning drinking wouldn't be for the greater good. Alcohol-related crimes increased under Prohibition, they didn't reduce. Prohibition is also what gave the Mafia its start in the US. Without the profits from illicit and untaxed liquor, they wouldn't have been able to create the organised crime platform that they did. Banning something does not make it disappear. If it did, there wouldn't be any drug addicts or criminals.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Dislike 1


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## Adephi

jm10 said:


> Lol i cant take any sentence with seriousness when it has our government in it.
> 
> Govt is against all substance abuse yet they make the green stuff legal to please who exactly? Ca ching for some one.
> 
> Look i like to have a drink put ban the stuff and it will reduce road deaths in the country over night, question is why would they not ban drinking if its for the greater good?
> 
> Yeah our government
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons here...

The government did not legalize marijuana, the Constitutional Court and Higher courts did. They gave the government 24 months to put the appropriate laws into place.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Resistance

Adephi said:


> Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons here...
> 
> The government did not legalize marijuana, the Constitutional Court and Higher courts did. They gave the government 24 months to put the appropriate laws into place.



Like really dude!!! Cowabunga!!! It figures... I've met a few judges and lawyers that smoke them muff.
Thays the guys we need to get to legalize vaping then.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Resistance

Still a government body just not the one everyone else thinks it is.they were chosen by the president and its still about revenue...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Resistance

@baksteen8168 
I rest my case!

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB

Resistance said:


> Still a government body



In democracies, the judiciary is independent of the other branches of government. The government actually appealed against the original decision by the Western Cape High Court and the Constitutional Court over-ruled the state's objections.

The ConCourt doesn't take instruction from the legislature or the executive, it is guided only by the Constitution and the law. The ConCourt doesn't collect or disburse taxes so it's not about the money. That is the whole point of an independent judiciary in a democratic structure.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## baksteen8168

Resistance said:


> @baksteen8168
> I rest my case!


Can you post a link to that business insider article? I would like to read up on it.

Also, remember I said your point borders on conspiracy theory. Nowhere did I say that you were talking kak

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## jm10

Adephi said:


> Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons here...
> 
> The government did not legalize marijuana, the Constitutional Court and Higher courts did. They gave the government 24 months to put the appropriate laws into place.



Yes you are correct, i just get really on the edge when people talk as if the government does anything right. Its a bloody joke. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andre

All your questions answered:
https://filtermag.org/2018/10/11/th...PMEv0hkvd3N9fW39vqp9zTXKdmZnFwZt4hpWlLEQhr_XA

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## RichJB

I totally agree with the article linked by @Andre. Prohibitionism is a proven failure. The US has cracked down heavily on drugs for decades. Today they have an opiate epidemic in which more American high school kids take illegal drugs than smoke legal cigarettes, and the latest figures show that three Americans are dying from drug OD for every two who die in gun violence. The most alarming aspect of that is that gun deaths have been stable, even dropping slightly in recent years. Drug OD fatalities are increasing in double-digit percentages every year. 

So alcohol Prohibition failed and the War on Drugs has too. By contrast, the campaign against smoking has been a success. In 1950, half of adult Westerners smoked. Today that is down to 15% and reducing further every year. It is not coincidental that tobacco is the only one of the three products that never got banned. Keeping the product legal, but controlling its quality, price, distribution and consumption through legislation, regulation, taxation, peer pressure and public health messaging, has proven to be the best approach.

That doesn't mean that govt supports it, or is obliged to support it. Govt allowing alcohol, drugs and tobacco doesn't mean they promote these things. They can allow alcohol without encouraging people to drink, just like they can allow people to drive without encouraging them to commit hit-&-run incidents. 

If the Minister wishes to condemn vaping just like smoking and urge people to not use nicotine in any form, that is fine. He is a health professional not a vaping industry sales rep, he has no obligation to promote addiction to anything. As long as he has the insight to understand that the problem can't be legislated away, and that allowing it offers far more control than trying to outlaw it, that is all I expect of him.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## baksteen8168

RichJB said:


> I totally agree with the article linked by @Andre. Prohibitionism is a proven failure. The US has cracked down heavily on drugs for decades. Today they have an opiate epidemic in which more American high school kids take illegal drugs than smoke legal cigarettes, and the latest figures show that three Americans are dying from drug OD for every two who die in gun violence. The most alarming aspect of that is that gun deaths have been stable, even dropping slightly in recent years. Drug OD fatalities are increasing in double-digit percentages every year.
> 
> So alcohol Prohibition failed and the War on Drugs has too. By contrast, the campaign against smoking has been a success. In 1950, half of adult Westerners smoked. Today that is down to 15% and reducing further every year. It is not coincidental that tobacco is the only one of the three products that never got banned. Keeping the product legal, but controlling its quality, price, distribution and consumption through legislation, regulation, taxation, peer pressure and public health messaging, has proven to be the best approach.
> 
> That doesn't mean that govt supports it, or is obliged to support it. Govt allowing alcohol, drugs and tobacco doesn't mean they promote these things. They can allow alcohol without encouraging people to drink, just like they can allow people to drive without encouraging them to commit hit-&-run incidents.
> 
> If the Minister wishes to condemn vaping just like smoking and urge people to not use nicotine in any form, that is fine. He is a health professional not a vaping industry sales rep, he has no obligation to promote addiction to anything. As long as he has the insight to understand that the problem can't be legislated away, and that allowing it offers far more control than trying to outlaw it, that is all I expect of him.


Very well put response.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Thanks 1


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## Resistance

baksteen8168 said:


> Can you post a link to that business insider article? I would like to read up on it.
> 
> Also, remember I said your point borders on conspiracy theory. Nowhere did I say that you were talking kak


Baksteen you are my lawyer in this matter bro! Nowhere did I say you said I was talking k@k.will post that links for you

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Resistance

RichJB said:


> I totally agree with the article linked by @Andre. Prohibitionism is a proven failure. The US has cracked down heavily on drugs for decades. Today they have an opiate epidemic in which more American high school kids take illegal drugs than smoke legal cigarettes, and the latest figures show that three Americans are dying from drug OD for every two who die in gun violence. The most alarming aspect of that is that gun deaths have been stable, even dropping slightly in recent years. Drug OD fatalities are increasing in double-digit percentages every year.
> 
> So alcohol Prohibition failed and the War on Drugs has too. By contrast, the campaign against smoking has been a success. In 1950, half of adult Westerners smoked. Today that is down to 15% and reducing further every year. It is not coincidental that tobacco is the only one of the three products that never got banned. Keeping the product legal, but controlling its quality, price, distribution and consumption through legislation, regulation, taxation, peer pressure and public health messaging, has proven to be the best approach.
> 
> That doesn't mean that govt supports it, or is obliged to support it. Govt allowing alcohol, drugs and tobacco doesn't mean they promote these things. They can allow alcohol without encouraging people to drink, just like they can allow people to drive without encouraging them to commit hit-&-run incidents.
> 
> If the Minister wishes to condemn vaping just like smoking and urge people to not use nicotine in any form, that is fine. He is a health professional not a vaping industry sales rep, he has no obligation to promote addiction to anything. As long as he has the insight to understand that the problem can't be legislated away, and that allowing it offers far more control than trying to outlaw it, that is all I expect of him.


So illegal guns should be made legal too???
It will cause less people to act like cowboys and shoot up the place.
Also when is America going to tell trump to get out of Palestine.?
I mean after all its innocent people dying while rich kids are overdosing in American schools...
Seeing that you brought it up...!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance

https://www.businessinsider.co.za/s...alised-cannabis-weed-dagga-consumption-2018-9
@baksteen8168

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## RichJB

Resistance said:


> So illegal guns should be made legal too???



Guns are already legal. 



Resistance said:


> Also when is America going to tell trump to get out of Palestine.?



Politics doesn't really work that way. "America" (whoever that is) doesn't tell the President what to do. Instead, the Presidential candidates present their policies to the people, who vote for them based on that. Whoever wins therefore receives a mandate to enact their policies. If the people decide they don't like those policies, they can vote for a different candidate the next time. But they can't tell the President what to do. He is expected to be a leader, not a follower.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance

RichJB said:


> Guns are already legal.
> 
> 
> 
> Politics doesn't really work that way. "America" (whoever that is) doesn't tell the President what to do. Instead, the Presidential candidates present their policies to the people, who vote for them based on that. Whoever wins therefore receives a mandate to enact their policies. If the people decide they don't like those policies, they can vote for a different candidate the next time. But they can't tell the President what to do. He is expected to be a leader, not a follower.



And it seem like you will follow any stupid leader.
Thats where we differ I am not a mule, and iI will never follow idiots. I will also never hurts or injure or affect any person for monetary gain,social gain or political gain and I will also never follow any party or structure which has those views. And if you read your posts you will notice how many times you and the people that agreed with you contradicted your posts and instead try to find more minor technicalities to point out thinking it increases your chances in getting likes in this debative argument.


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## RainstormZA

RichJB said:


> Guns are already legal.


And there lies the problem, too many criminals getting them. 

South Africa has gone down a deep dark hole with violent crime increasing.


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## RichJB

Resistance said:


> And it seem like you will follow any stupid leader.



No, I merely respect and abide by democratic processes. If the majority elect a leader who enacts a policy that the majority agrees with, then I accept it even if I don't agree with that policy. That doesn't prevent me from speaking out against that policy or making representation to govt about it. But that, too, entails processes that must be adhered to and respected.



Resistance said:


> Thats where we differ I am not a mule, and iI will never follow idiots.



Neither will I, which is why it's irrelevant to me what our Minister thinks of vaping. I am capable of doing my own research and making up my own mind, I don't need the Minister to do it for me. But then, I am not the one demanding that govt must promote vaping. Considering that vapers have such a low opinion of govt's intelligence, it surprises me that govt's endorsement is so important to them. Do you really want stupid people promoting your hobby and lifestyle? Or is it that, if govt started promoting vaping, they suddenly wouldn't be stupid anymore and would magically transform into the smartest guys in the room?



Resistance said:


> I will also never hurts or injure or affect any person for monetary gain,social gain or political gain and I will also never follow any party or structure which has those views.



You have that luxury because you are not a policy decision-maker. Politicians must make these decisions and, in many cases, there is no option that doesn't involve harm. If the govt doesn't build more power stations, there are power cuts, industry suffers and jobs are lost. If they do build more power stations, pollution increases. 

Guns is another area where there is no harm-free solution. If govt bans guns, law-abiding civilians are left defenceless. If they do allow guns, criminals can get them. So govt can't make a choice in which nobody is harmed. Whatever policy they enact, someone is going to suffer.

Naturally, govt face daily allegations that they murder people for financial gain. When they proposed the new air quality standards, industry walked out claiming that govt was in the pocket of lunatic fringe greens who want to destroy the economy and ensure that no South Africans have jobs and all starve to death. And then civil society walked out, claiming that govt was in the pocket of industrial oligarchs who want to poison our children and dance on their graves.

So no, the vaping community alleging that govt is in big tobacco's pocket and wants all South Africans to smoke and die of cancer is not going to elicit any response or influence govt policy. They face these sort of allegations daily and from every industrial sector. So they just roll their eyes and move on.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Resistance

Y


RichJB said:


> No, I merely respect and abide by democratic processes. If the majority elect a leader who enacts a policy that the majority agrees with, then I accept it even if I don't agree with that policy. That doesn't prevent me from speaking out against that policy or making representation to govt about it. But that, too, entails processes that must be adhered to and respected.
> 
> 
> 
> Neither will I, which is why it's irrelevant to me what our Minister thinks of vaping. I am capable of doing my own research and making up my own mind, I don't need the Minister to do it for me. But then, I am not the one demanding that govt must promote vaping. Considering that vapers have such a low opinion of govt's intelligence, it surprises me that govt's endorsement is so important to them. Do you really want stupid people promoting your hobby and lifestyle? Or is it that, if govt started promoting vaping, they suddenly wouldn't be stupid anymore and would magically transform into the smartest guys in the room?
> 
> 
> 
> You have that luxury because you are not a policy decision-maker. Politicians must make these decisions and, in many cases, there is no option that doesn't involve harm. If the govt doesn't build more power stations, there are power cuts, industry suffers and jobs are lost. If they do build more power stations, pollution increases.
> 
> Guns is another area where there is no harm-free solution. If govt bans guns, law-abiding civilians are left defenceless. If they do allow guns, criminals can get them. So govt can't make a choice in which nobody is harmed. Whatever policy they enact, someone is going to suffer.
> 
> Naturally, govt face daily allegations that they murder people for financial gain. When they proposed the new air quality standards, industry walked out claiming that govt was in the pocket of lunatic fringe greens who want to destroy the economy and ensure that no South Africans have jobs and all starve to death. And then civil society walked out, claiming that govt was in the pocket of industrial oligarchs who want to poison our children and dance on their graves.
> 
> So no, the vaping community alleging that govt is in big tobacco's pocket and wants all South Africans to smoke and die of cancer is not going to elicit any response or influence govt policy. They face these sort of allegations daily and from every industrial sector. So they just roll their eyes and move on.


You have that luxury too.or are you a politition or a capitalist which borders on the same thing. Screw humanity and profit

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance

Y


RichJB said:


> No, I merely respect and abide by democratic processes. If the majority elect a leader who enacts a policy that the majority agrees with, then I accept it even if I don't agree with that policy. That doesn't prevent me from speaking out against that policy or making representation to govt about it. But that, too, entails processes that must be adhered to and respected.
> 
> 
> 
> Neither will I, which is why it's irrelevant to me what our Minister thinks of vaping. I am capable of doing my own research and making up my own mind, I don't need the Minister to do it for me. But then, I am not the one demanding that govt must promote vaping. Considering that vapers have such a low opinion of govt's intelligence, it surprises me that govt's endorsement is so important to them. Do you really want stupid people promoting your hobby and lifestyle? Or is it that, if govt started promoting vaping, they suddenly wouldn't be stupid anymore and would magically transform into the smartest guys in the room?
> 
> 
> 
> You have that luxury because you are not a policy decision-maker. Politicians must make these decisions and, in many cases, there is no option that doesn't involve harm. If the govt doesn't build more power stations, there are power cuts, industry suffers and jobs are lost. If they do build more power stations, pollution increases.
> 
> Guns is another area where there is no harm-free solution. If govt bans guns, law-abiding civilians are left defenceless. If they do allow guns, criminals can get them. So govt can't make a choice in which nobody is harmed. Whatever policy they enact, someone is going to suffer.
> 
> Naturally, govt face daily allegations that they murder people for financial gain. When they proposed the new air quality standards, industry walked out claiming that govt was in the pocket of lunatic fringe greens who want to destroy the economy and ensure that no South Africans have jobs and all starve to death. And then civil society walked out, claiming that govt was in the pocket of industrial oligarchs who want to poison our children and dance on their graves.
> 
> So no, the vaping community alleging that govt is in big tobacco's pocket and wants all South Africans to smoke and die of cancer is not going to elicit any response or influence govt policy. They face these sort of allegations daily and from every industrial sector. So they just roll their eyes and move on.


Yes dont you know the gupta's???

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance

Like i said u r contradicting urself. Ignorance is bliss

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB

Resistance said:


> Y
> 
> You have that luxury too.or are you a politition or a capitalist which borders on the same thing. Screw humanity and profit



Profit is good. Without it, we wouldn't be able to buy vape gear. Or food, even. I don't mind the rat race, I just wish there was more cheese.



Resistance said:


> Yes dont you know the gupta's???



Not personally, no. Although I'm unclear what the Guptas have to do with anything I've posted.


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## Raindance

RichJB said:


> Profit is good. Without it, we wouldn't be able to buy vape gear. Or food, even. I don't mind the rat race, I just wish there was more cheese.


The core purpose of any business is to make profit. Even true for non profit organisations (where profits are only recorded and distributed differently) as “no profit = no business”.
In turn “no business = no jobs”.
One does not have to like or agree with this, but fact is fact and I do not particularly like gravity either but no use claiming it does not exist.

If i remember correctly my opening phraze was coined by Juran in the early 20th century. 

Regards

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Resistance

kev mac said:


> Just a short while ago I was grooving in the afterglow of a great New England sports night.
> My life-long favorite Boston Red Sox had beaten the Huston Astros to even the ALCS at 1 game each.And on top of that my hometown heroes the New England Patriots pulled off another patented last minute victory.
> Then the anti vapeing lobby harshed my mellow.
> I saw for the first time a "Public service announcement in the form of a commercial misinforming me on how vapeing is worse than smoking because a hit of the vape pod is like smoking 20 cigarettes in terms of the amount of nicotine. This got my goat for sure.Then immediately following that another came on this time saying that Vapers are many many times more likely to switch to cigarettes. The anti smoking lobby once again playing fast and loose with the facts.I understand that we don't want minors to start vapeing as a fashion statement the same way I wouldn't want my children to drink or take drugs or smoke.But these are things as parents we must keep our youngsters away from.I as well as all my fellow forum mates know that vapeing saves lives and I resent the disservice and halve truths these special interest groups perpetrate.


I guess what they were doing was right then...making sure they profit.
Then why complain in the first place???
Please stick to the point this time...


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## Resistance

RichJB said:


> Profit is good. Without it, we wouldn't be able to buy vape gear. Or food, even. I don't mind the rat race, I just wish there was more cheese.
> 
> 
> 
> Not personally, no. Although I'm unclear what the Guptas have to do with anything I've posted.


Same like Im unclear with alot of your posts like you steering away from the point and finding new technicalities to old angles,
And If you knew what happened in ZA government...aka presidential suite you might find the answers there.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## hot.chillie35

Resistance said:


> I guess what they were doing was right then...making sure they profit.
> Then why complain in the first place???
> Please stick to the point this time...



I totally agree with you @Resistance. It would seem that certain ppl on this forum keep chopping and changing with the wind. We each have a right to our own opinion yet opinions change here like I change my underwear... Lol twice a day.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB

What happens in the presidential suite? Do tell, I'm sure we're all keen to know.


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## Resistance

RichJB said:


> What happens in the presidential suite? Do tell, I'm sure we're all keen to know.


You have lots of follwers on your side maybe some of them might enlighten you. I am going to browse through the forum in case someone else needs realtime help.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB

No answer then? Imagine my surprise.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Resistance

No.people need me for better things on this forum and im waisting my time here

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Resistance

Maybe you get an answer from someone that agreed with you or liked your posts but as you said. Everybody needs to profit. I dont profit from this debate and I am sure I am more usefull om this forum then arguing here.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## jm10

RichJB said:


> What happens in the presidential suite? Do tell, I'm sure we're all keen to know.



Well my guess is as good as anyones but i would hazard a guess that it is allot of confusion followed by simple minded thinking followed by lunch, day over. 

Just imagine if big companies were run like this with mismanaged finances/planning/direction/leadership, oh wait we don’t have to cause.....




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## RichJB

Heh, the difference between perception and reality. Try working for a Cabinet Minister. I have, albeit in a freelance consulting capacity. You will not believe the hours these people put in. Just look at how Obama aged in 8 years, that gives you an idea of how much stress they are under. It's not a job I'd take for all the tea in China.


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## Resistance

RichJB said:


> Heh, the difference between perception and reality. Try working for a Cabinet Minister. I have, albeit in a freelance consulting capacity. You will not believe the hours these people put in. Just look at how Obama aged in 8 years, that gives you an idea of how much stress they are under. It's not a job I'd take for all the tea in China.


Now we know why you are biased.still not the issue you started this debate with,hence me moving on to a brighter future somewhere else on the forum where real people need real help with vape related issues as this is a vape forum.everytime you dont have an answer you change the topic and that is still according to me ignorance.give up everything you own for a week and and come back with solid feedback on how the you feel after your experience.I'll bet you'll have a change of heart and mind. Its not to late to make a positive change for hamanity,but take off the blinders first.Go live in the place where people face life everyday and tell me how brilliant your views are. Then you wont have this type of comments.peace out and vape on

Reactions: Like 2


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## jm10

RichJB said:


> Heh, the difference between perception and reality. Try working for a Cabinet Minister. I have, albeit in a freelance consulting capacity. You will not believe the hours these people put in. Just look at how Obama aged in 8 years, that gives you an idea of how much stress they are under. It's not a job I'd take for all the tea in China.



Wouldn’t expect anything else for the compensation they get. In that same train of thought wouldn’t it be safe to say that if they work so hard we should have a better run organization leading our country? 

I mean a country is just like a company,so take vodacom for eg; they run huge profits with massive expansions and developments but fraud and corruption must be there but its controlled and run effectively 
so it does well and continues to grow with great prospects. 

I typed out quite a long post but erased it because allot of people take what i say the wrong way. 



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## Resistance

jm10 said:


> Wouldn’t expect anything else for the compensation they get. In that same train of thought wouldn’t it be safe to say that if they work so hard we should have a better run organization leading our country?
> 
> I mean a country is just like a company,so take vodacom for eg; they run huge profits with massive expansions and developments but fraud and corruption must be there but its controlled and run effectively
> so it does well and continues to grow with great prospects.
> 
> I typed out quite a long post but erased it because allot of people take what i say the wrong way.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well said

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## SmokeyJoe

Soooo....
Nice weather were having

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 3


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## Andre

@Resistance, with all due respect, you argue like SARS's IT head to us mere mortals.

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Adephi



Reactions: Funny 4


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## SmokeyJoe

Adephi said:


>


This guys has a serious case of jaundice. That or he rubbed his eyes after eating butter popcorn

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RichJB

jm10 said:


> In that same train of thought wouldn’t it be safe to say that if they work so hard we should have a better run organization leading our country?



Not necessarily. Working hard is not the same as working effectively. A labourer who digs a 20-foot hole by lunchtime, then fills it in again during the afternoon, is working very hard but not achieving much of a result. So not working very effectively. For any politician, it's debatable whether they are working effectively. But they all work hard in my experience.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Puff the Magic Dragon

SmokeyJoe said:


> This guys has a serious case of jaundice. That or he rubbed his eyes after eating butter popcorn



It might be the *diacetyl* in the popcorn which has turned his eyes yellow.

{Diacetyl is an organic compound with the chemical formula (CH3CO)2. It is a *yellow* or green liquid with an intensely buttery flavor)

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 5


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## jm10

RichJB said:


> Not necessarily. Working hard is not the same as working effectively. A labourer who digs a 20-foot hole by lunchtime, then fills it in again during the afternoon, is working very hard but not achieving much of a result. So not working very effectively. For any politician, it's debatable whether they are working effectively. But they all work hard in my experience.



Thank you, because this is coming from your mouth allot of people on this forum will believe what I’m about to say next,

So what you are saying is that since you have “first hand experience” of our politicians working so hard and the state our country is in(poor), we can safely say that they are ineffective at running there divisions and thus the country. 




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## RichJB

I don't think one can make a blanket statement about the performance of politicians. There are some who are effective at what they do, others less so. That doesn't just apply to Ministers but throughout the Departmental structures. One of my jobs was to compile annual departmental reviews, which entailed interviews with DGs, DDGs and CDs around whether they met their targets or not. Some fell far short of their targets, others exceeded them. Like any huge organisation, it is a mixture of people with differing competency levels.

One of the problems govt has is head-hunting by the private sector. Around the world, the ideal is for govt to have remuneration parity with the private sector, and perhaps even get paid more. As someone in the US once quipped "Government doesn't hire burger-flippers". Govt experts are doing the vitally important job of managing the country, it is fair that they should be paid accordingly. But then the electorate has problems with being taxed to pay people who are earning more than they are in the private sector. So it's a sensitive issue that must be managed accordingly.

Needless to say, the entry requirements for top posts in govt are extremely steep. For a DDG, two degrees is the minimum: a Law degree and then another degree in line with the post. So a Medical degree for NDOH, Commerce for Treasury/SARS, and so on. And then preferably post-grad in at least one of the degrees. There aren't a whole lot of dual-degree grads in the country so several of the departments I worked with have severe staff shortages. They advertise a top post, get 60k applications, and not one of them has the base level requirements. They want someone with Law and Marine Biology degrees and get applicants who have a BA, or an IT certificate they got in a correspondence course, or a diploma in Office Management.

Then when they do get someone who is adequately qualified, the private sector head-hunts them after a year and offers them double the salary. It's an ongoing problem. But it does counter the perception among many that govt employees are lazy and incompetent. If they were, the private sector wouldn't be so keen to hire them.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Resistance

Andre said:


> @Resistance, with all due respect, you argue like SARS's IT head to us mere mortals.


@Andre wish I was there to fix what is wrong.Im the type that don't crumble at the sight of money...meaning I am passionate about what is right and won't let a paycheck decide how to treat people and what I think of them.I will also not look the other way when I see something is wrong just because my bank balance stands firm at the end of month.

Reactions: Like 1


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## jm10

Resistance said:


> @Andre wish I was there to fix what is wrong.Im the type that don't crumble at the sight of money...meaning I am passionate about what is right and won't let a paycheck decide how to treat people and what I think of them.I will also not look the other way when I see something is wrong just because my bank balance stands firm at the end of month.


 

Bet if you won the euro lotto you would forgot about us while you’re on you’re mega yacht with your model friends surrounding you 

Trying to lighten the mood here cause we all family even thou we dont agree on everything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance

RichJB said:


> I don't think one can make a blanket statement about the performance of politicians. There are some who are effective at what they do, others less so. That doesn't just apply to Ministers but throughout the Departmental structures. One of my jobs was to compile annual departmental reviews, which entailed interviews with DGs, DDGs and CDs around whether they met their targets or not. Some fell far short of their targets, others exceeded them. Like any huge organisation, it is a mixture of people with differing competency levels.
> 
> One of the problems govt has is head-hunting by the private sector. Around the world, the ideal is for govt to have remuneration parity with the private sector, and perhaps even get paid more. As someone in the US once quipped "Government doesn't hire burger-flippers". Govt experts are doing the vitally important job of managing the country, it is fair that they should be paid accordingly. But then the electorate has problems with being taxed to pay people who are earning more than they are in the private sector. So it's a sensitive issue that must be managed accordingly.
> 
> Needless to say, the entry requirements for top posts in govt are extremely steep. For a DDG, two degrees is the minimum: a Law degree and then another degree in line with the post. So a Medical degree for NDOH, Commerce for Treasury/SARS, and so on. And then preferably post-grad in at least one of the degrees. There aren't a whole lot of dual-degree grads in the country so several of the departments I worked with have severe staff shortages. They advertise a top post, get 60k applications, and not one of them has the base level requirements. They want someone with Law and Marine Biology degrees and get applicants who have a BA, or an IT certificate they got in a correspondence course, or a diploma in Office Management.
> 
> Then when they do get someone who is adequately qualified, the private sector head-hunts them after a year and offers them double the salary. It's an ongoing problem. But it does counter the perception among many that govt employees are lazy and incompetent. If they were, the private sector wouldn't be so keen to hire them.


I am really glad I live in the real world to be able to see you are either high or you live in a perfect world which only belong in fairy tales.

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## Resistance

jm10 said:


> Bet if you won the euro lotto you would forgot about us while you’re on you’re mega yacht with your model friends surrounding you
> 
> Trying to lighten the mood here cause we all family even thou we dont agree on everything.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



No,I'm the guy that will buy everyone a yacht so they can all join me without paying it back.
and I still won't have a superiority complex and I still won't think I'm better...
there were people born with golden spoons that thought they could manipulate me before. What they didn't know is I don't have snobs as friends and I don't work for them either.
that's my morals and it didn't cost a cent so I won't sell it or sell out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hot.chillie35

Resistance said:


> No,I'm the guy that will buy everyone a yacht so they can all join me without paying it back.




That's how I know u @Resistance .. Always with ur Big heart... That's the reason ur family loves u so. Ai my sweet man .. That heart of urs gna get u in k@k one day

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Resistance

hot.chillie35 said:


> That's how I know u @Resistance .. Always with ur Big heart... That's the reason ur family loves u so. Ai my sweet man .. That heart of urs gna get u in k@k one day


Then I just wash it off and sanatise like I always do!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance

RichJB said:


> Heh, the difference between perception and reality. Try working for a Cabinet Minister. I have, albeit in a freelance consulting capacity. You will not believe the hours these people put in. Just look at how Obama aged in 8 years, that gives you an idea of how much stress they are under. It's not a job I'd take for all the tea in China.


I have indeed and he called me Mister.They had the utmost respect for me and @hot.chillie35 after they saw our worth,how we work and the quality standard we bring to the table, and the fact that they could not bamboozle us with cheap and crap talk and the fact that we know what were talking about.
They also liked that we knew what they were talking about.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hot.chillie35

Resistance said:


> I have indeed and he called me Mister.They had the utmost respect for me and @hot.chillie35 after they saw our worth,how we work and the quality standard we bring to the table, and the fact that they could not bamboozle us with cheap and crap talk and the fact that we know what were talking about.
> They also liked that we knew what they were talking about.



@Resistance, we worked for Dr's, Lawyers, Politicians, Engineers, Judges, etc...just not personally for a president. We were also called to do work in England & St Helena & none of them could give us bull or use money against us. We walk away! They can get a mule to do their work if they come with status issues and thinks that money talks.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Resistance

Government is still corrupt with exception of a certain minority and I will still let my child vape to avoid them falling in the smoking stinkie trap!
Same points,different day my story never changed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## baksteen8168

Resistance said:


> https://www.businessinsider.co.za/s...alised-cannabis-weed-dagga-consumption-2018-9
> @baksteen8168



Was very busy from Friday digging a hole and then filling it in (as I am a government employee), so I only saw these posts this morning. Thanks for the link @Resistance . Will take a look at it when I'm done digging today 

(Please note that I am joking)
(Also note that I don't like digging holes... So I'll be getting those that work under me to dig and fill them for me)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alex

Please note, this thread is now locked.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 3 | Funny 2


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