# Are cheap poor quality juices KILLING the Vape Industry?



## SergeiGrey

Good Day

I have a pressing question for the community.

Are cheap poor quality juices KILLING the Vape Industry in South Africa?

If you think about it.

The shops are struggling because people spend less!
People Vape less because it is no longer an enjoyable experience!
New cheap juices come in 120ml 2mg, as a knock-on effect because we vape less of a lower mg Nicotine we are slowly weaning ourselves of the nicotine!
Bigger bottles plus less vaping means fewer feet into Vape shops fewer feet means a lot less sales!
What if these poorer quality cheaper juices start making people sick, this is possible because they are trying to make it as cheap as possible. By design and choice using cheaper concentrates and cheaper nicotine!
Cheaper juices make vaping more accessible to teenagers because it is now affordable for them!
My opinion is that stocking and selling cheaper poorer quality is counter-intuitive and damaging to the industry.

Soon the government will have to jump in and regulate the industry, which will result in flavour bans and stricter controls.

Is it not better that we self-regulate if we don't the government will be happy to do so.

Some food for thought this morning for the Vape Shops.


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## Puff the Magic Dragon

IMO vape juice is so cheap to make that it wouldn't be worth making juice out of cheaper ingredients.

The DIYers among us buy all our ingredients in small volumes and at retail prices. Even at these inflated prices we make DIY juice at a small fraction of the retail juice prices.

From day one we have heard scare stories about dangerous fake/clone juices out there but I am unaware of any health issues with these juices.

That having been said there are always nutters out there so it's best to buy from reputable vendors.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1


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## Adephi

If you are referring to counterfeit juices you get from Chinese and Indian stores then absolutely yes.

But budget juices can help people switch to vaping. One of the main reason people don't switch is because of costs. 

I believe in an open market. A retailer or manufacturer can sell his product at whatever price they want. Its the consumer that needs to make the choice to buy or not. And the retailer and manufacturer need to adjust to that.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 11


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## SergeiGrey

Interesting perspective, thanks for sharing your view.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## SergeiGrey

Adephi said:


> If you are referring to counterfeit juices you get from Chinese and Indian stores then absolutely yes.
> 
> But budget juices can help people switch to vaping. One of the main reason people don't switch is because of costs.
> 
> I believe in an open market. A retailer or manufacturer can sell his product at whatever price they want. Its the consumer that needs to make the choice to buy or not. And the retailer and manufacturer need to adjust to that.




I didn't even think to consider counterfeit juices.


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## Dela Rey Steyn

To a certain extent I have seen this happen. Our "small town" vape shop in Louis Trichardt has unique problem in this regard. It is more of a socioeconomic issue really. Louis Trichardt (LTT) has a very low income community, with a population smaller than most suburbs in Pretoria (PTA).
When Richie opened shop here in LTT, most of us vapers that live here rejoiced, as we did not have to always resort to ordering online. When he started, he tried his best to compete with the shops in PTA and JHB, Premium Juices, latest and greatest devices etc. Unfortunately, most of these guys had minimum orders that were a bit rough for small town LTT. He almost closed shop after year one. Then came the introduction of the Budget Juice ranges, and Richie and the majority of the vapers in town rejoiced, but only for a short while. Yes, the public could finally get what they wanted: cheaper Juice, but it came at a cost. These Budget juices are mostly blander and taste "watered down". So after year 2 he almost shut down again, because sales dropped immensely. Yes budget juices got the people buying again, but it was almost never repeat business. People want cheap-premium juice, hell, most of us would love it! Because the economy has not been kind to us lately. There are some good/semi-all right budget ranges, but most of them are useless and a negative for the industry in my opinion.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


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## CJB85

Adephi said:


> If you are referring to counterfeit juices you get from Chinese and Indian stores then absolutely yes.
> 
> But budget juices can help people switch to vaping. One of the main reason people don't switch is because of costs.
> 
> I believe in an open market. A retailer or manufacturer can sell his product at whatever price they want. Its the consumer that needs to make the choice to buy or not. And the retailer and manufacturer need to adjust to that.


I voted no before reading this reply and I have to say I agree with the "counterfeit" type angle. I do not however feel that liquids like the Vapology range at R150 per 100ml will do any damage at all. A LOT of smokers have mentioned that vaping is too expensive if you vape quite a bit, so I am all for prices ranging from cheap to premium. Liquor stores haven't closed down because they are stocking Harrier next to the Johnny Walker Blue label.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Useful 1


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## Stranger

I also find this very interesting. In business terms vaping is in it's infancy and one of the few industries that has had massive tech leaps in a very short time. It has yet to bottom out. 18 months ago I would never have thought to mix my own juice from scratch, yet it is a relatively simple process. Same with coils and building. I must have halved and halved again my costs relating to my habit.
I DIY juice and I build coils, this in itself has saved me a lot of money albeit offset by the purchases of newer tech and rebuildables. This I think has also had an effect on the retail side. My last order for DIY was around R400 and this will produce around 1 L of juice for me, so R40 per 100ml. I am reluctant to use the word equivalent for my juice but I like what I make and am very happy with it. I would pay upwards of R 120, 3 x the price if I bought retail.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Do you have any proof that cheaper juice is poorer quality?
Vape shops screw the public with their markups. All us diy'ers know what a 100ml cost to produce, and thats not even buying in bulk

I have bought many expensive juice that was pretty k#k

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3


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## Dela Rey Steyn

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Do you have any proof that cheaper juice is poorer quality?
> Vape shops screw the public with their markups. All us diy'ers know what a 100ml cost to produce, and thats not even buying in bulk
> 
> I have bought many expensive juice that was pretty k#k


 I don't think vape shops screw us. Commercial Juice are mostly manufactured is ISO standard labs, which come at a cost. Then it needs to be couriered to the respective shops. Shops have overheads and salaries to pay, they buy large quantities that at some times sits on a shelf for weeks /months that it does provide them with any income. Only to be eventually sold. So economically speaking, we are still getting premium juices at a good price.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 7


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## RenaldoRheeder

An interesting topic which will probably attract varied responses. I personally don't think that it will have any significant effect on the industry. We have the same occurring in many other industries and they are all still around. 

We generally assume that price dictates quality, but that is defenitely not always the case. I have vaped (and and continue to) both low cost and more expensive juices and the higher price does not always ensure that I will enjoy it more, and neither does the lower price mean that I will enjoy it less. 

Like all other industries there will always be a price range that cater for all budgets (which is a good thing) and poor quality will not kill the industry but rather the specific product. 


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Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 12 | Winner 2


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## Stranger

Well defending the retail outlets a little, they have overheads that we do not. Rental, salary's, utilities, stock, Insurance and I am sure they would like a little profit, at least I would. All to provide us with some convenience

Reactions: Agree 9


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## RenaldoRheeder

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> I don't think vape shops screw us. Commercial Juice are mostly manufactured is ISO standard labs, which come at a cost. Then it needs to be couriered to the respective shops. Shops have overheads and salaries to pay, they buy large quantities that at some times sits on a shelf for weeks /months that it does provide them with any income. Only to be eventually sold. So economically speaking, we are still getting premium juices at a good price.



Agree 100%. Besides, it is a free market system and our choices of vendors is wide. 


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Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 4


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## MrDeedz

MTL Juice prices must drop and Volume increase KLA GEPRAAT LOL, thats my 12mg worth

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 5 | Funny 2 | Thanks 1


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## KrayFish404

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Vape shops screw the public with their markups.



I am not going to disagree or agree with that, but something is most definitely not right. I see the exact same with whisky. We are being nailed hectically with import tax. So the general consensus would then be that a product made in SA would (should?) be remarkably cheaper than an import of the same quality, right? 

Bains is a good whiskey. But at R289 I can still buy a super import - even if we excuse the massive import duty, and the shipping cost.

Why is some local liquid on par with pricing, the same as imported juice - which has gone through the same import tax and shipping cost as a whisky?

I will remain opinionless, I DIY myself. But that has always bothered me. look, no-one does a job because they like it - we do it because of money, so that we can buy the things we like. If you are not going to make the extra buck, someone else will.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## CJB85

Dela Rey Steyn said:


> I don't think vape shops screw us. Commercial Juice are mostly manufactured is ISO standard labs, which come at a cost. Then it needs to be couriered to the respective shops. Shops have overheads and salaries to pay, they buy large quantities that at some times sits on a shelf for weeks /months that it does provide them with any income. Only to be eventually sold. So economically speaking, we are still getting premium juices at a good price.


I have to (somewhat) agree here as well... It is like a pair of running shoes, the material in a R2000 pair of shoes may only be R100, but you need to factor in the labour, facilities, transport, creator profit, store profit etc... not even to mention the R&D costs, I often wonder how much time and mixing goes into a liquid before it goes to market.

I do however think that no liquid should be R300 for 60ml and that 120ml bottles should become industry standard.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Winner 2


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## CJB85

KrayFish404 said:


> I am not going to disagree or agree with that, but something is most definitely not right. I see the exact same with whisky. We are being nailed hectically with import tax. So the general consensus would then be that a product made in SA would (should?) be remarkably cheaper than an import of the same quality, right?
> 
> Bains is a good whiskey. But at R289 I can still buy a super import - even if we excuse the massive import duty, and the shipping cost.
> 
> Why is some local liquid on par with pricing, the same as imported juice - which has gone through the same import tax and shipping cost as a whisky?
> 
> I will remain opinionless, I DIY myself. But that has always bothered me. look, no-one does a job because they like it - we do it because of money, so that we can buy the things we like. If you are not going to make the extra buck, someone else will.


I think economies of scale may be part of it here, so the imported liquids actually manage to be as "cheap" as local liquids, as they have a market of 10's of thousands. 

I further think that there is a real opportunity to save some money on all fronts, if juice makers were willing to have larger containers of premium liquid at shops (perhaps just the specific liquids that sell really fast), where you can get a discount if you fill your own (or old) container.

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## KrayFish404



Reactions: Funny 7


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## Puff the Magic Dragon

If you tell someone that you have something special to sell them they will believe you... most of the time.

Take running shoes as an example. Many weekend joggers insist that they need the latest and greatest running shoes. They make many claims about their magical goodness and hand over thousands.

Bruce Fordyce's down run comrades record stood for 21 years. How many groundbreaking improvements did shoe manufacturers claim to have made during this 21 year period. 

People often like to pay more. It gives them status and a feeling of exclusivity.

Expensive juice will always be there and some will buy it with a smile.

The fact that a lot of juices are more expensive than good Whisky doesn't surprise me anymore.

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## Riaz_sh

local premium juice should not be selling at the price of an international
a premium local juice costs about R150-200 for a 60ml
anything over R200 for a local juice is overpriced in my opinion

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## Hooked

Cheap is not necessarily poor quality. 


CJB85 said:


> I think economies of scale may be part of it here, so the imported liquids actually manage to be as "cheap" as local liquids, as they have a market of 10's of thousands.
> 
> I further think that there is a real opportunity to save some money on all fronts, if juice makers were willing to have larger containers of premium liquid at shops (perhaps just the specific liquids that sell really fast), where you can get a discount if you fill your own (or old) container.



It's a good idea but the only problem is that vapers are so fickle! A particular juice is all the rage for a while - until the next one comes along, after which the previous one is forgotten! So that which sells very fast this week, may be ignored next week.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 6


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## Wimmas

Just my opinion:

I am 100% against counterfeit juices selling at low prices.

However, legit juices at low prices are welcome. Some of them are not very tasty, but some are. Same applies to expensive juices, not all are great.

What I really struggle to understand is how local brands go for R350+ per 100ml, while I buy imports like Jam Monster at R270 per 100ml. Yes there are costs and one cannot compare it to the costs of DIY'ing 100ml, but I think R320 for 120ml is still fair and should be profitable.

I'd like to know what the margins are these local guys are making... Manufacturer to retail, and retail to consumer.

Wonder what will happen to pricing once the tax is applied. 

Sent from my MAR-LX1M using Tapatalk

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## Hooked

@SergeiGrey I'm just wondering ... are you a juice-maker? Vape shop owner? I just get the feeling that thou doth protest too much.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Dela Rey Steyn

Riaz_sh said:


> local premium juice should not be selling at the price of an international
> a premium local juice costs about R150-200 for a 60ml
> anything over R200 for a local juice is overpriced in my opinion



I disagree here. International liquids are made in much larger quantities than local and they have a larger offset area than local juices. I'm no Rockefeller by any standards. But I honestly feel that our local "premium juices" are reasonably priced for the quality we receive. I can't always afford to buy the quantity that I would like, but have a few backup budget juices to keep me going and I dabble (mostly unsuccessfully) in DIY. So when the good stuff runs out, I can sustain myself until I can buy my favorites again. We have some of the cheapest juices world wide in SA, and I've read multiple times that international Vapers are extremely full of praise for our local mixologists.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Dela Rey Steyn

I see a lot of comments saying that premium juices taste bad, but just remember that taste is extremely subjective.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## Hooked

I don't think the vape industry needs to be self-regulating, as @SergeiGrey suggested. We vapers need to be self-regulating and take responsibility for ourselves. 

It's easy to find out which are the well-known local juice brands - just go on to FB and you'll be overwhelmed by the ads. So if a vaper buys a brand that isn't well-known, it's a chance he takes. And if he wants to take that chance simply based on price, that is *his *decision. We do not have to become a nanny state simply to "protect" someone who may not be able to afford a more expensive juice.

There are more than enough regulations in life and the vaping industry will no doubt become regulated in one or another in the future.
However, to insist on quality of all juice isn't feasible. Firstly, how does one determine quality? Is the regulatory body going to tell the juice makers which concentrates / nicotine they must use? And how would the quality of these be determined in the first place?

Secondly, even if something is defined as inferior quality, once again, it is the consumer's choice. 

IF a particular brand of juice does indeed make someone sick, again suggested by @SergeiGrey, then that does indeed need to be investigated. Has anyone ever heard of a "cheap" juice making someone sick? If it had, we would have heard about it by now, either on this forum or any other, or on one of the other social media platforms. 

Leave well alone. Respect the fact that some people will buy the cheapest juice that is available out of financial necessity - just as they would with any other commodity.

It won't kill them - and it won't kill the vape industry either.

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## ARYANTO

My thoughts , When I started out I was petrified of the cost of juice ,wow r 800 for a Smok and r 200 for juice ??? madness.
With some gentle nudging I found my flav profile and one of the biggest shops at the time had a budget range [and still have] , I bought these and then the _Main big bottle_ for treating myself .Fleamarket here we come ''Jeepers look at this Nasty , only r 50 for 100 ml !'' Well it tasted like r 50 too , bland, harsh and too runny , Back to the drawing board , DIY yay ! Mixed like a mad Dutchman and quickly mastered the art of ''my juice'' Fortunate my efforts did not contaminate the 
planet and now I love my mixes and still buy my spoil juices [or win them on Ecigssa] , If it was'nt for those budget juices I would have gone back to Winstons.

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## SergeiGrey

Hooked said:


> @SergeiGrey I'm just wondering ... are you a juice-maker? Vape shop owner? I just get the feeling that thou doth protest too much.



@Hooked 

Good Morning

I am planning/busy entering the market as a juice manufacturer, and I have done some research and this is an extension of that research. the Subject line is intended to spark debate.

The 4 issues listed were findings from interviewing Shop Owners, Vaporista's (Like a Barista but a person that works in the Vapestore... just made this up... thought you would like it) and Store Managers in and around Gauteng. The questionnaire was standard for all 20 stores. But the sample size is too small hence this post to see how I can expand the dataset quickly.

The 5 emerging issues are listed below. 

The shops are struggling because people spend less!
People Vape less because it is no longer an enjoyable experience!
New cheap juices come in 120ml 2mg, as a knock-on effect because we vape less of a lower mg Nicotine we are slowly weaning ourselves of the nicotine!
Bigger bottles plus less vaping means fewer feet into Vape shops fewer feet means a lot less sales!
What if these poorer quality cheaper juices start making people sick, this is possible because they are trying to make it as cheap as possible. By design and choice using cheaper concentrates and cheaper nicotine!
Cheaper juices make vaping more accessible to teenagers because it is now affordable for them!
Point 5 is a controversial one but that is a question that came to my mind NOT a finding, so I included it. The reason for including it is that I buy concentrate and nicotine at wholesale and I can honestly say that I don't know how they can put a 120ml 2mg flavour with labels and packaging in a store with a retail price of R150. Stores are looking for a minimum of 40% - 70% margin on a bottle. 

Which indicates that wholesale price is R60-R80? It raises a question in my mind? If you apply first principles thinking and break down the cost. Bottle, Label, Packaging, base liquid, concentrate, supply chain, distribution. Where do they compromise and is it a safe compromise?

I would like to highlight that these issues are more prevalent in smaller mom's & pop's stores. But once again inconclusive sample size too small and not demographically spread. I can confirm that the stores are struggling, fewer feet, fewer sales, lower ticket prices, less revenue, and escalating rent. 

The objective of my research is:

Sell in Vapestores?
Sell online "ONLY" and pass the supply chain and retail space cost savings to consumers? Unfortunately, it can't be both.
Brand positioning?
Brand promise?
Pricing and bottle size (R.vs 60/120ml)
I want to thank everyone for sharing their views and opinions. It is giving me an invaluable perspective.

For me, this post and thread is NOT about BEING RIGHT but it is definitely about GETTING IT RIGHT.

Thank you

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## Hooked

Thank you for explaining the purpose of the poll @SergeiGrey. I can hear that you are familiar with Research Methodology and that you are taking this seriously. 

We do have a juice manufacturer on the forum - All Day Vapes - who sells directly to the public ONLY which keeps his costs reasonable. You might want to PM him for a chat @YeOldeOke.

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## ARYANTO

The shops are struggling because people spend less!  Yes we all struggle

People Vape less because it is no longer an enjoyable experience! No more ppl are beginning to see the benefit of vaping and a big % of current vapers won't stop because it became a hobby instead of a habit

New cheap juices come in 120ml 2mg, as a knock-on effect because we vape less of a lower mg Nicotine we are slowly weaning ourselves of the nicotine! Don't agree , started on 3 mg and still on 3 will sometimes even brave a 6 mg.
Bigger bottles plus less vaping means fewer feet into Vape shops fewer feet means a lot less sales!  relate to point 1

What if these poorer quality cheaper juices start making people sick, this is possible because they are trying to make it as cheap as possible. By design and choice using cheaper concentrates and cheaper nicotine!  Most mixers are proud of their mixes and have struggled to get it on the shelf , they won't compromise their reputation to mix something scaly and sell it off , reputable shops won't sell dangerous juice , word travels fast in this community and if you are trying to pull a fast one you will see your axx.

Cheaper juices make vaping more accessible to teenagers because it is now affordable for them! Back to shop and reputation - most won't sell to kids and if you get it at Fong kong mall it's not manufactured by the guy who made original Jam monster .

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## Puff the Magic Dragon

ARYANTO said:


> What if these poorer quality cheaper juices start making people sick, this is possible because they are trying to make it as cheap as possible. By design and choice using cheaper concentrates and cheaper nicotine!



Please end my confusion.

What is a poor quality juice?

PG and VG are cheap as chips....so no worthwhile saving here.
The cheapest nic generally available is White Label Scrawny Gecko. Many of our members swear by this product and have no problem with it.
Concentrates vary in price. There is no evidence that the cheapest ones are in any way inferior. In fact two of the cheapest brands are possibly the most popular.

"Cheaper juices start making people sick"

See @Hooked 's comments. None of us has confirmed evidence of a juice making us sick. This even includes the fake ones.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Yes the logic behind this study/research confuse me. Cheap poorer quality 2mg juices? Do Vapour Mountain sell cheap poorer quality vape juice? because last time I checked they also sell 2mg? Most top brands sell 0mg also?
My logic would say the lower mg nic you use, the more you going to vape?
Is the cost between 2mg and 3mg nic even mentionable?

Nothing makes sense

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## Asterix

To be honest, when I first read the OP’s post, I immediately construed it to be a veiled attack on NCV’s “Slick” range. Still believe that’s the case.

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## Adephi

This is really a good thread and I hope we can continue to discuss this in a cunstructive way.

But I find one point concerning.



SergeiGrey said:


> New cheap juices come in 120ml 2mg, as a knock-on effect because we vape less of a lower mg Nicotine we are slowly weaning ourselves of the nicotine!



*Vaping is a harm-reduction tool to help get people off cigarettes and tobacco products.*

Nothing else. Just that.

If we start to lose that focus and concentrate purely on profit we are none better than the tobacco industry. Vaping is *NOT *there to get people addicted to nicotine. Its actually the opposite. Tobacco companies get people (including teens) addicted to nicotine.

Now I don't have a problem with making a profit. Everybody got bills to pay and families to feed. I don't have a problem with overpriced items. If you make a juice thats R500 for 30ml that tastes like Scarlett Johansson's vagina thats great. But if you lose focus on what vaping is meant to be, you lost my respect and support.

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## Resistance

KrayFish404 said:


> I am not going to disagree or agree with that, but something is most definitely not right. I see the exact same with whisky. We are being nailed hectically with import tax. So the general consensus would then be that a product made in SA would (should?) be remarkably cheaper than an import of the same quality, right?
> 
> Bains is a good whiskey. But at R289 I can still buy a super import - even if we excuse the massive import duty, and the shipping cost.
> 
> Why is some local liquid on par with pricing, the same as imported juice - which has gone through the same import tax and shipping cost as a whisky?
> 
> I will remain opinionless, I DIY myself. But that has always bothered me. look, no-one does a job because they like it - we do it because of money, so that we can buy the things we like. If you are not going to make the extra buck, someone else will.


No offence taken.
I like my job and believe me it's not about the money. I also still have pride in what I do. The sad part is a handfull of people appreciate it and the rest want to lowball me to save a buck to spend on themselves.
And no offence intended!

Reactions: Like 4


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## Resistance

What I don't understand is the switch from 3- and 6-respctively to 2mg.
(I'm not generalising)
Some juices you can still find in 3- and 6mg but not all of them is what I'd like in 6mg.
Yes some vapers still prefer the 6mg in sub-ohm vaping.
The other thing is charge what you want to charge. Vape what you want to vape as long as it's not forced on me an I still have the choice.
I will buy a comercial juice because I have tried it and I liked the flavour even if it doesn't check all my boxes whether it's cheap or not.
If I can't try it it's rare that I'll buy it!.

Reactions: Like 6 | Dislike 1


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## Timwis

SergeiGrey said:


> Good Day
> 
> I have a pressing question for the community.
> 
> Are cheap poor quality juices KILLING the Vape Industry in South Africa?
> 
> If you think about it.
> 
> The shops are struggling because people spend less!
> People Vape less because it is no longer an enjoyable experience!
> New cheap juices come in 120ml 2mg, as a knock-on effect because we vape less of a lower mg Nicotine we are slowly weaning ourselves of the nicotine!
> Bigger bottles plus less vaping means fewer feet into Vape shops fewer feet means a lot less sales!
> What if these poorer quality cheaper juices start making people sick, this is possible because they are trying to make it as cheap as possible. By design and choice using cheaper concentrates and cheaper nicotine!
> Cheaper juices make vaping more accessible to teenagers because it is now affordable for them!
> My opinion is that stocking and selling cheaper poorer quality is counter-intuitive and damaging to the industry.
> 
> Soon the government will have to jump in and regulate the industry, which will result in flavour bans and stricter controls.
> 
> Is it not better that we self-regulate if we don't the government will be happy to do so.
> 
> Some food for thought this morning for the Vape Shops.


I have not voted because i am not in South Africa so don't know if there is an issue with very poor quality cheap juice but don't understand certain points made such as point 3 because i believe larger bottles with low nicotine mg so we can wean ourselves off nicotine is a good thing on so many levels as long as like i said for some reason there isn't some major issue in South Africa i'm not aware of.

We have high regulations in the UK with the TPD so e-liquid manufacture is fully regulated yet we also have very cheap e-liquid but they follow exactly the same standards as the high cost juices. I PM'd @RainstormZA a couple of weeks ago about a new manufacturer in the UK called twopoundeliquids who sell 50ml shortfills for just £2 and free delivery on £20 orders so 10 50ml shortfills delivered for £20 just add a nicshot to each (can purchase for just 50p a shot) to get 60ml 3mg e-liquid for just £2.50 a bottle, and i have had £20 a bottle flavours that were not as good when it comes to flavour.

Like @Puff the Magic Dragon mentioned knowing how much it costs when DIYing using high quality nicotine, PG, VG and flavourings etc (factor into that manufacturers will pay much less (bulk buying)) i would suggest twopoundseliquid has the price right the other manufacturers to different levels are just being greedy.

Going back to point 3 i agree with what @Adephi mentions as people are encouraged to give up stinkies mainly for health but as incentives are told it will also save them money and allow more control on weaning themselves off their nicotine addiction but you seem to be saying that's a bad idea so yes @Hooked beat me to it do you have ties with a e-liquid manufacturer who are losing business because other manufacturers are offering the vaper a better deal?

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## Timwis

ARYANTO said:


> The shops are struggling because people spend less!  Yes we all struggle
> 
> People Vape less because it is no longer an enjoyable experience! No more ppl are beginning to see the benefit of vaping and a big % of current vapers won't stop because it became a hobby instead of a habit
> 
> New cheap juices come in 120ml 2mg, as a knock-on effect because we vape less of a lower mg Nicotine we are slowly weaning ourselves of the nicotine! Don't agree , started on 3 mg and still on 3 will sometimes even brave a 6 mg.
> Bigger bottles plus less vaping means fewer feet into Vape shops fewer feet means a lot less sales!  relate to point 1
> 
> What if these poorer quality cheaper juices start making people sick, this is possible because they are trying to make it as cheap as possible. By design and choice using cheaper concentrates and cheaper nicotine!  Most mixers are proud of their mixes and have struggled to get it on the shelf , they won't compromise their reputation to mix something scaly and sell it off , reputable shops won't sell dangerous juice , word travels fast in this community and if you are trying to pull a fast one you will see your axx.
> 
> Cheaper juices make vaping more accessible to teenagers because it is now affordable for them! Back to shop and reputation - most won't sell to kids and if you get it at Fong kong mall it's not manufactured by the guy who made original Jam monster .


Can not argue with @ARYANTO points, seem on the mark to me!

Reactions: Like 3 | Useful 1


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## SergeiGrey

Asterix said:


> To be honest, when I first read the OP’s post, I immediately construed it to be a veiled attack on NCV’s “Slick” range. Still believe that’s the case.


@Asterix

Morning

There is really no hidden agenda. To put it into perspective it is called a competitor analysis. It would be reckless to say the least to try and enter a market without performing a competitor analysis.

There are multiple vendors that play in that space not just "Slick" as you brought up, CBE, Vapology all seem to think it is the right approach. Maybe they have better data than what I have, they definitely have been in the market for long.

There are multiple vendors within the competitor analysis that I performed.

Sorry for creating that impression for you. I think one of my biggest take out so far is that Quality and Taste are subjective.

Reactions: Like 6 | Dislike 1


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## SergeiGrey

Timwis said:


> I have not voted because i am not in South Africa so don't know if there is an issue with very poor quality cheap juice but don't understand certain points made such as point 3 because i believe larger bottles with low nicotine mg so we can wean ourselves off nicotine is a good thing on so many levels as long as like i said for some reason there isn't some major issue in South Africa i'm not aware of.
> 
> We have high regulations in the UK with the TPD so e-liquid manufacture is fully regulated yet we also have very cheap e-liquid but they follow exactly the same standards as the high cost juices. I PM'd @RainstormZA a couple of weeks ago about a new manufacturer in the UK called twopoundeliquids who sell 50ml shortfills for just £2 and free delivery on £20 orders so 10 50ml shortfills delivered for £20 just add a nicshot to each (can purchase for just 50p a shot) to get 60ml 3mg e-liquid for just £2.50 a bottle, and i have had £20 a bottle flavours that were not as good when it comes to flavour.
> 
> Like @Puff the Magic Dragon mentioned knowing how much it costs when DIYing using high quality nicotine, PG, VG and flavourings etc (factor into that manufacturers will pay much less (bulk buying)) i would suggest twopoundseliquid has the price right the other manufacturers to different levels are just being greedy.
> 
> Going back to point 3 i agree with what @Adephi mentions as people are encouraged to give up stinkies mainly for health but as incentives are told it will also save them money and allow more control on weaning themselves off their nicotine addiction but you seem to be saying that's a bad idea so yes @Hooked beat me to it do you have ties with a e-liquid manufacturer who are losing business because other manufacturers are offering the vaper a better deal?



This insight is great thanks for sharing. you bring up a valid point. In South Africa we don't have a regulation like TPD that I know of. As far as I am aware all we need is an ISO7 certified lab which only speaks to Air Quality.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SergeiGrey

Adephi said:


> This is really a good thread and I hope we can continue to discuss this in a constructive way.
> 
> But I find one point concerning.
> 
> 
> 
> *Vaping is a harm-reduction tool to help get people off cigarettes and tobacco products.*
> 
> Nothing else. Just that.
> 
> If we start to lose that focus and concentrate purely on profit we are none better than the tobacco industry. Vaping is *NOT *there to get people addicted to nicotine. Its actually the opposite. Tobacco companies get people (including teens) addicted to nicotine.
> 
> Now I don't have a problem with making a profit. Everybody got bills to pay and families to feed. I don't have a problem with overpriced items. If you make a juice thats R500 for 30ml that tastes like Scarlett Johansson's vagina thats great. But if you lose focus on what vaping is meant to be, you lost my respect and support.



@Adephi 

I don't have a revert on this. You are absolutely correct the positioning of the statement is terrible. When I typed it, it made sense in my head. Thank you for challenging me on that statement. It opened my eyes.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Timwis

The problem with regulation when it comes to vaping most of the world are in a catch 22 situation. Any industry that has got as big as vaping and involves health albeit harm reduction used as a switch from smoking needs regulation it really does. Most industries in vaping's maturity now would be screaming out for regulation and self regulation while most will do so with the best of intentions is open to abuse.

The catch 22 is the war on vaping and governments wearing blinkers playing at dumb and dumber believing every flawed report with an hidden agenda that mostly comes out of the US means regulation wouldn't be based on science and truth but flawed studies and lies. In the UK we moaned when the TPD came into force but it seams that ended up putting us in a great position because the government and Heath England commissioned study after study believe it or not hoping it would possibly lead to a justified ban on vaping but what they did was followed the truth of the findings switching their position to be firmly in favour of vaping seeing it as at least 95% safer than smoking and the greatest chance the world would get to eradicating cigarette smoking.

So regulation for most will mean unjust taxes, restrictions and possibly bans all caused by cash floating around in plain unmarked packages. Studies where the findings are already decided before the study even happens. But vaping is in a no win situation because self regulation leaves vaping wide open to attack as we have seen over the last few years, hopefully sense will become reality but things look gloomy!

Reactions: Like 6


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## Vapington

As the creator behind Slick Eliquid Co. and Northern Craft Vapes I would like to poke my head in and add my 2 cents. 

Your headliner firstly, is quite misleading and jumps to conclusions. Alot of the "cheap" or should I say cheaper eliquids are NOT poor quality, in fact I would say most of them (stocked in your average vape store) are actually at the very least average to good quality. How do you classify something as poor quality?

You question how anyone could market a good quality juice at R150 for 120mls? Well I will tell you, it took an entire year to get Slick right (we did not compromise on quality - Authentic Chubby bottles/premium packaging and labelling/same nicotine we use in NCV products/same PG and VG we use in NCV products/premium concentrates and is manufactured and bottled in our ISO7 certified clean room - now here is where the costs are saved : Low nicotine (2mg max), Large Bulk buying of concentrates, bottles, packaging etc - this is a huge risk for manufacturers who have to outlay huge capital to bring costs down and take on huge stock piles in the hopes they can move them all, we manufacture, bottle and distribute it all in-house and lastly being clever on the use of concentrates and compiling the recipes (most important one!). We took a long time developing the recipes for this range, we had to work with low percentages of concentrate and come up with something that is still very flavourful (ADV material). Probably the hardest range Ive worked on but also quite chuffed with how they have turned out. Yes of course the margins aren't in line with our other products but that is expected.

I have tried many of the other lower priced juice offerings and have been impressed with many of them. Our industry is adjusting to our market finally, we have been emulating the likes of USA and Europe for too long, South Africans do not earn dollars or pounds!!! 

To finish off, as with many industries there are options available for all budgets. There should ALWAYS be an affordable option(s) for the market.

Have an awesome weekend guys!

Reactions: Like 14 | Agree 4 | Winner 2


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## Timwis

Vapington said:


> As the creator behind Slick Eliquid Co. and Northern Craft Vapes I would like to poke my head in and add my 2 cents.
> 
> Your headliner firstly, is quite misleading and jumps to conclusions. Alot of the "cheap" or should I say cheaper eliquids are NOT poor quality, in fact I would say most of them (stocked in your average vape store) are actually at the very least average to good quality. How do you classify something as poor quality?
> 
> You question how anyone could market a good quality juice at R150 for 120mls? Well I will tell you, it took an entire year to get Slick right (we did not compromise on quality - Authentic Chubby bottles/premium packaging and labelling/same nicotine we use in NCV products/same PG and VG we use in NCV products/premium concentrates and is manufactured and bottled in our ISO7 certified clean room - now here is where the costs are saved : Low nicotine (2mg max), Large Bulk buying of concentrates, bottles, packaging etc - this is a huge risk for manufacturers who have to outlay huge capital to bring costs down and take on huge stock piles in the hopes they can move them all, we manufacture, bottle and distribute it all in-house and lastly being clever on the use of concentrates and compiling the recipes (most important one!). We took a long time developing the recipes for this range, we had to work with low percentages of concentrate and come up with something that is still very flavourful (ADV material). Probably the hardest range Ive worked on but also quite chuffed with how they have turned out. Yes of course the margins aren't in line with our other products but that is expected.
> 
> I have tried many of the other lower priced juice offerings and have been impressed with many of them. Our industry is adjusting to our market finally, we have been emulating the likes of USA and Europe for too long, South Africans do not earn dollars or pounds!!!
> 
> To finish off, as with many industries there are options available for all budgets. There should ALWAYS be an affordable option(s) for the market.
> 
> Have an awesome weekend guys!


I think if you read the whole thread the members have corrected his thinking and have outlined your points

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vapington

SergeiGrey said:


> This insight is great thanks for sharing. you bring up a valid point. In South Africa we don't have a regulation like TPD that I know of. As far as I am aware all we need is an ISO7 certified lab which only speaks to Air Quality.


Nope you could manufacture in your basement and sell it. SA has no regulation. 

If your Air Quality is ISO7 rated it means its an exceptionally clean space which is why Air quality is important and tested.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Vapington

Timwis said:


> I think if you read the whole thread the members have corrected his thinking and have outlined your points


I have read through it yes  I am just giving my point of view

Reactions: Like 1


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## Timwis

Decided to vote anyway to bring up results and surprised how many said yes but they don't seem to cast their reasons in the thread?


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## RichJB

SergeiGrey said:


> The shops are struggling because people spend less!



Is that because juice is cheap or because there are too many vape shops? The vaping retail model doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. Smoking, at the height of its popularity, had a lot more smokers then than vapers now. Yet how many specialist tobacco stores could the market sustain? Not many at all. In addition, online retail wasn't available back then, it is now. That is going to cut foot traffic further.

I also think that most people vape according to a monthly budget. If they spend less on juice, they will probably spend more on hardware. As a DIYer, I didn't spend less when concentrates dropped in price. I simply spent the same and bought more concentrates. Cheaper juice prices might affect a juice-only store. But how many vape shops fit this category? Most are general dealers who sell juice and hardware.

People may be spending less generally but that is at least partly due to price reductions as economies of scale kicked in. When I started vaping, batteries were R200 each, dual cell 200W mods were R1500 and TFA concentrates were R40. Now you can get batteries for R100, dual cell mods for R600 and TFA flavours for R15-R25. This is a natural phenomenon in any emerging industry. How much did CD players cost when they first came out? Or wide-screen large LCD computer monitors? Or digital cameras? They were prohibitively expensive. As more people buy and the technology mainstreams, costs come down.



SergeiGrey said:


> People Vape less because it is no longer an enjoyable experience!



Expensive juices aren't necessarily more enjoyable. If they were, nobody would DIY or mix one-shots.



SergeiGrey said:


> New cheap juices come in 120ml 2mg, as a knock-on effect because we vape less of a lower mg Nicotine we are slowly weaning ourselves of the nicotine!



You say that like it's a bad thing? Isn't the whole idea of quitting smoking to also wean yourself off the chemical dependency that makes it more likely that you'll go back to smoking?

Besides, the scientific evidence suggests that vapers auto-adjust their nic intake according to their needs, not according to the strength of the juice. If you vape a 59mg JUUL, you will get your nic high quickly and are less likely to vape often. Vape a 2mg juice and you will take more drags to keep your nic levels up. So theoretically, lower mg juice actually increases consumption. You are taking more puffs to not suffer nic withdrawal and thus consuming more juice = more sales.



SergeiGrey said:


> What if these poorer quality cheaper juices start making people sick, this is possible because they are trying to make it as cheap as possible. By design and choice using cheaper concentrates and cheaper nicotine!



I don't think there any dangerously cheap brands of nic. It's theoretically possible that juice manufacturers could use cheap oil-based supermarket food flavourings. But I doubt that any who sell in stores (as opposed to flea markets and informal sales) would consider it worth the cost to not use TFA, FW, Cap and the other flavour brands favoured by the industry. It's very difficult to make supermarket flavours work in juice.



SergeiGrey said:


> Cheaper juices make vaping more accessible to teenagers because it is now affordable for them!



How is this a bad thing for the industry's profits?

Reactions: Like 7 | Winner 1


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## fbb1964

My experience are as follows. In 3 years vaping I never bought a single thing local. And I'm talking the whole caboodle. Mods, juice coils etc the lot. With Hong Kong and Asia having unbelievable cheap prices, newer stock and better customer service why would I. A local kid thinking he's doing you a massive favor serving you at big $$ is not customer service. Until covid came. Now only pgvg and flavours local it's not that excessively overpriced. Nicotine you have to buy from overseas anyway all trade in nic prohibited in AU. Maybe coils if I need it but only after doing serious research first. The Americans and Europeans buy lots from Asia too just looking at the reviews. Even EU and USA imported juice sells cheaper in Hk. Not knock off's the real McCoy. Why? Their in the same boat as us. Not necessarily poor quality watered down juice but high local retail prices. As much as I like to support mom and pop stores local retail mark-up is just too high. They probably buy from exactly the same supplier I do, score bulk discount and then go ape on the retail markup. The supply chain and shipping is a bit screwed up with covid now but it's bouncing back. And btw coming back to the original poll, my apologies, looking at some reviews and prices for local mixes by many local juice mix retailers the best seller juices are always the expensive imported juices that have built a brand name for quality and flavor. Why them and not the locals? Selling high volume in units, good quality and competitive prices build a brand name in time. Get rich quick ride the wave locals probably doing more harm than good to the industry. Tons of local juice makers popping up with fancy names and interesting mixes but c for serious overpriced. Maybe as the industry grows it might change who knows. Or die if the nic ban happens.

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## ivc_mixer

*cough* Hufflepuff *cough*

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 11


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## ivc_mixer

Look, though I quoted a specific retailer above, I do not believe cheap juices are ruining the market. There is a place for all kinds in our market, same as you will get cheap TV's and more expensive ones. Hisense TV's are cheap, but the quality is still quite good whereas the likes of Samsung is more expensive for basically the same. Both still sell.

I am taking a swing at the retailer quoted above again since people like that, in my humble opinion, are taking chances and it's not even budget pricing. So here you have juices being sold for more than premium of which the perceived quality is less than budget - I say perceived since they are offering things like a 3mg, 30ml 'Bavarian Cream' juice for R250. Seriously? Bavarian Cream is an additive, not a juice! But I am going slightly off topic now. *reminder: breathe in, breathe out*

Reactions: Like 5 | Funny 4


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## NecroticAngel

Just a little fight on behalf of the DIY sellers out there (I am not one of them, but I want people to realise that its not as chap as you think) And no Im not talking about the Ftards @ivc_mixer mentioned, that lot can go to hell.

Stickers: min quantity purchase 100 R173, shipping R90
Graphic Design for sticker: R800
Website design and development at the lowest rate I can imagine for an ecommere: R4500
Yearly Hosting for website: R1600
5 concentrates at R45 each (erring on the side of more expensive like MB): R225
Bottle: R9
PG VG NIC 3mg: lets call it R7

Time and marketing not accounted for, neither is all the cost of creating the perfect recipe and all the pg vg nic and flavorants down the drain whilst creating it. Not counting the cost of phonecalls to designers and developers and printers etc, and remember this is before you even approach a vape shop. I have no idea of the sterile equipment that is now required under law, and if it is lets toss in a R3k for that though thats the price of a single magnetic stirrer, lets just be cautiosly optimistic. 

This is also assuming you only bought 5 concentrates, not 140 of them like myself and then managed to make something worth selling off the 5 you have, should you go the 140 route, and lets call it R25 per bottle so 140 - 5 above = 135 * 25 = R3 375

So to start up this business:

With only 5 concentrates: R7404

With ISO standard equipment at a thumbsuck: R10 404

With 140 concentrates: R13 779

Thats to sell ONE juice online, as a sole proprietor and having no staff for things like accounting tax etc. 

Only reason I write all of this is I DIY myself, and I am still happy to pay a premium price on juice because I understand all this! Also have you ever actually smoked any of the juices from a china shop? You wont again. My worst DIY is better than their best knock off. SO I dont believe cheap juices are killing the market, like @ivc_mixer says, theres room out there for everyone!

Reactions: Like 3


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## Feliks Karp

NecroticAngel said:


> Just a little fight on behalf of the DIY sellers out there (I am not one of them, but I want people to realise that its not as chap as you think) And no Im not talking about the Ftards @ivc_mixer mentioned, that lot can go to hell.
> 
> Stickers: min quantity purchase 100 R173, shipping R90
> Graphic Design for sticker: R800
> Website design and development at the lowest rate I can imagine for an ecommere: R4500
> Yearly Hosting for website: R1600
> 5 concentrates at R45 each (erring on the side of more expensive like MB): R225
> Bottle: R9
> PG VG NIC 3mg: lets call it R7
> 
> Time and marketing not accounted for, neither is all the cost of creating the perfect recipe and all the pg vg nic and flavorants down the drain whilst creating it. Not counting the cost of phonecalls to designers and developers and printers etc, and remember this is before you even approach a vape shop. I have no idea of the sterile equipment that is now required under law, and if it is lets toss in a R3k for that though thats the price of a single magnetic stirrer, lets just be cautiosly optimistic.
> 
> This is also assuming you only bought 5 concentrates, not 140 of them like myself and then managed to make something worth selling off the 5 you have, should you go the 140 route, and lets call it R25 per bottle so 140 - 5 above = 135 * 25 = R3 375
> 
> So to start up this business:
> 
> With only 5 concentrates: R7404
> 
> With ISO standard equipment at a thumbsuck: R10 404
> 
> With 140 concentrates: R13 779
> 
> Thats to sell ONE juice online, as a sole proprietor and having no staff for things like accounting tax etc.
> 
> Only reason I write all of this is I DIY myself, and I am still happy to pay a premium price on juice because I understand all this! Also have you ever actually smoked any of the juices from a china shop? You wont again. My worst DIY is better than their best knock off. SO I dont believe cheap juices are killing the market, like @ivc_mixer says, theres room out there for everyone!



R13000 is actually super cheap to start a business off, I think your estimate is fair but I think more of that start up money would go towards marketing than manufacturing, if you do make bulk you will buy bulk bases and flavours which will be way cheaper. It would be silly to experiment with concentrates while trying to start your business off. Same with the bottles, no way you will pay R9 when buying bulk. Most people will simply rip a website theme (they easy to torrent) and if you can licence graphic stuff off of fiverr/IG/deviant very cheaply.

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## Chickenstrip

Are cheap poor quality cars destroying the car industry?

Are cheap poor quality meats destroying the meat industry?

Are cheap poor quality Chinese television destroying the TV industry?

Are cheap poor quality anything destroying any industry?

No, I don't believe so.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


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## Puff the Magic Dragon

Quality is difficult to define as we can see from the discussions above.
Taste is pretty much self determined.
"Health" issues are pretty much a red herring until we have evidence that a particular juice (cheap or expensive) has made anyone ill.

Cheap juice, whether tasty or not, keeps other vendors honest. To some extent the market dictates. If the most expensive brand makes the "best" juice people may be prepared to pay the price.

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## stevie g

The only thing poor quality juices are killing is their own brand.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Spyker41771

I think cheap juices is good in their own right, poor quality juices not so much, some months i cant afford the top of the range juices then i need to buy cheaper juices.

Think there a lot of people that smoked cheaper brand of smokes like yes and chicago and those brands that wont be able to move to vaping if it wasn't for the cheaper brand vape juices ..

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## Puff the Magic Dragon

What is a poor quality juice ?

Do they use non USP or BP Veg G or Pg? Do they use bad nic ? Do they use concentrates which are of poor quality ? If any of these are shown to be the case I would agree that perhaps they could be called poor quality juices. If not then what is a poor quality juice?

If they taste bad are they poor quality juices ? I don't think so. There are several "premium"juices which taste terrible to me. No-one agrees that juice X is the best and Y is the worst tasting juice. Some cheap juices taste great.

Can we agree on what a poor quality juice is so that we all understand the term?
.

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## fbb1964

Too weak flavour diluted perhaps? I've seen quite a few reviews where the % concentrate added to vgpg created more like weak catpiss than the flavour it was suppose to be. Or cutting more volume by diluting from an original strong brand to sell lotsa rubbish cheap. Like the coke dealers do no pun intended..

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## Hooked

For the most part, we don't have a problem with poor quality local South African juice. I've vaped a lot of juice, both local and imported and I honestly can not generalise by saying that the one is better than the other.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Timwis

Hooked said:


> I don't think the vape industry needs to be self-regulating, as @SergeiGrey suggested. We vapers need to be self-regulating and take responsibility for ourselves.
> 
> It's easy to find out which are the well-known local juice brands - just go on to FB and you'll be overwhelmed by the ads. So if a vaper buys a brand that isn't well-known, it's a chance he takes. And if he wants to take that chance simply based on price, that is *his *decision. We do not have to become a nanny state simply to "protect" someone who may not be able to afford a more expensive juice.
> 
> There are more than enough regulations in life and the vaping industry will no doubt become regulated in one or another in the future.
> However, to insist on quality of all juice isn't feasible. Firstly, how does one determine quality? Is the regulatory body going to tell the juice makers which concentrates / nicotine they must use? And how would the quality of these be determined in the first place?
> 
> Secondly, even if something is defined as inferior quality, once again, it is the consumer's choice.
> 
> IF a particular brand of juice does indeed make someone sick, again suggested by @SergeiGrey, then that does indeed need to be investigated. Has anyone ever heard of a "cheap" juice making someone sick? If it had, we would have heard about it by now, either on this forum or any other, or on one of the other social media platforms.
> 
> Leave well alone. Respect the fact that some people will buy the cheapest juice that is available out of financial necessity - just as they would with any other commodity.
> 
> It won't kill them - and it won't kill the vape industry either.





Hooked said:


> I don't think the vape industry needs to be self-regulating


 The more i read this the more i disagree to the point i disagree 100%. History has proved that anything that isn't regulated is open to attack which is the problem the vape industry suffers from in a big way in fact we are on the cusp of not just flavour bans but possibly complete vaping bans in the US and if that happens many countries will follow like sheep and this was predicted because of lack of regulation and was the reason the TPD came into effect in Europe. Vaping is in the best shape in Europe especially the UK and that's down to TPD regulations, before it we were heading in the same direction as the US is now!

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## Timwis

Timwis said:


> The more i read this the more i disagree to the point i disagree 100%. History has proved that anything that isn't regulated is open to attack which is the problem the vape industry suffers from in a big way in fact we are on the cusp of not just flavour bans but possibly complete vaping bans in the US and if that happens many countries will follow like sheep and this was predicted because of lack of regulation and was the reason the TPD came into effect in Europe. Vaping is in the best shape in Europe especially the UK and that's down to TPD regulations, before it we were heading in the same direction as the US is now!

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## Timwis

Timwis said:


> The more i read this the more i disagree to the point i disagree 100%. History has proved that anything that isn't regulated is open to attack which is the problem the vape industry suffers from in a big way in fact we are on the cusp of not just flavour bans but possibly complete vaping bans in the US and if that happens many countries will follow like sheep and this was predicted because of lack of regulation and was the reason the TPD came into effect in Europe. Vaping is in the best shape in Europe especially the UK and that's down to TPD regulations, before it we were heading in the same direction as the US is now!


Mind i agree with the statement if @Hooked meant by it we need regulation by Governments rather then self regulation that holds no bite or authority and will only end in failure after all self regulation is what we have had and it has led the industry to the brink in many countries!

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## DavyH

Timwis said:


> Mind i agree with the statement if @Hooked meant by it we need regulation by Governments rather then self regulation that holds no bite or authority and will only end in failure after all self regulation is what we have had and it has led the industry to the brink in many countries!



Fair point, but competent self-regulation should give governments a good starting point to codify a responsible industry exemplar. It worked for tattooing where the industry basically set the standards that are now enforced.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Timwis

DavyH said:


> Fair point, but competent self-regulation should give governments a good starting point to codify a responsible industry exemplar. It worked for tattooing where the industry basically set the standards that are now enforced.


But vaping have had years to get it right in that regard and if anything any self regulation to keep us safe and have good standards hasn't been driven by vaping product manufacturers but by vapers themselves through tools like forums etc holding manufacturers to account!

Reactions: Like 2


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## DavyH

Timwis said:


> But vaping have had years to get it right in that regard and if anything any self regulation to keep us safe and have good standards hasn't been driven by vaping product manufacturers but by vapers themselves through tools like forums etc holding manufacturers to account!



Even better! Add the support of recognized professionals and you would expect sensible regulation to be a slam dunk. Unfortunately this is a country where sensible regulations are not exactly common.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Timwis

DavyH said:


> Even better! Add the support of recognized professionals and you would expect sensible regulation to be a slam dunk. Unfortunately this is a country where sensible regulations are not exactly common.


But it's a world issue regarding vaping not just South Africa with the only exception where vaping is not under threat being where there is regulation from outside the industry! Look at the UK we even have vape shops starting to open inside Hospitals that's what regulation has brought, before the TPD it was very different and vaping was under threat. It's not my opinion it's fact based, independent regulation has always been a good thing overall even if it includes certain unpopular measures!

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## DavyH

Timwis said:


> But it's a world issue regarding vaping not just South Africa with the only exception where vaping is not under threat being where there is regulation from outside the industry! Look at the UK we even have vape shops starting to open inside Hospitals that's what regulation has brought, before the TPD it was very different and vaping was under threat. It's not my opinion it's fact based, independent regulation has always been a good thing overall even if it includes certain unpopular measures!



I’m not disagreeing with you. It’s just that the UK has tended (some evidence to the contrary!) to follow a common sense-based path in public health, whereas our bureaucracy has mired itself in ineptitude, power plays, rank stupidity and corruption. However bad the SA government appears from the outside, the reality is far worse.

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## Timwis

DavyH said:


> I’m not disagreeing with you. It’s just that the UK has tended (some evidence to the contrary!) to follow a common sense-based path in public health, whereas our bureaucracy has mired itself in ineptitude, power plays, rank stupidity and corruption. However bad the SA government appears from the outside, the reality is far worse.


I have one thing to say mate "HufflePuff" lol

Reactions: Funny 7


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## fbb1964

Ditto here in AU big pharma with nicotine patches and big tobacco for smokes have the politicians and media in their deep pockets. Follow the $$s down the rabbit hole! Who benefits in the end? We're in for a serious fight here. It's one thing both the broederbonders and cancer have taught us well

Reactions: Like 3


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## Cognet-Vapour

Besides Vaping my own stuff I can understand why people buying cheap stuff in times when money is rough for many people.

the cheap cheap stuff in general like cheap normal juice lets so to speak yeah 120ml bottles under R200 its value for money but hurts the 60ml bottle guys.

personally its not about money its about quality and flavour i could never spend money on anything low or high and strugggle to vape it cause it taste bad.


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## Cognet-Vapour

SergeiGrey said:


> @Hooked
> 
> Good Morning
> 
> I am planning/busy entering the market as a juice manufacturer, and I have done some research and this is an extension of that research. the Subject line is intended to spark debate.
> 
> The 4 issues listed were findings from interviewing Shop Owners, Vaporista's (Like a Barista but a person that works in the Vapestore... just made this up... thought you would like it) and Store Managers in and around Gauteng. The questionnaire was standard for all 20 stores. But the sample size is too small hence this post to see how I can expand the dataset quickly.
> 
> The 5 emerging issues are listed below.
> 
> The shops are struggling because people spend less!
> People Vape less because it is no longer an enjoyable experience!
> New cheap juices come in 120ml 2mg, as a knock-on effect because we vape less of a lower mg Nicotine we are slowly weaning ourselves of the nicotine!
> Bigger bottles plus less vaping means fewer feet into Vape shops fewer feet means a lot less sales!
> What if these poorer quality cheaper juices start making people sick, this is possible because they are trying to make it as cheap as possible. By design and choice using cheaper concentrates and cheaper nicotine!
> Cheaper juices make vaping more accessible to teenagers because it is now affordable for them!
> Point 5 is a controversial one but that is a question that came to my mind NOT a finding, so I included it. The reason for including it is that I buy concentrate and nicotine at wholesale and I can honestly say that I don't know how they can put a 120ml 2mg flavour with labels and packaging in a store with a retail price of R150. Stores are looking for a minimum of 40% - 70% margin on a bottle.
> 
> Which indicates that wholesale price is R60-R80? It raises a question in my mind? If you apply first principles thinking and break down the cost. Bottle, Label, Packaging, base liquid, concentrate, supply chain, distribution. Where do they compromise and is it a safe compromise?
> 
> I would like to highlight that these issues are more prevalent in smaller mom's & pop's stores. But once again inconclusive sample size too small and not demographically spread. I can confirm that the stores are struggling, fewer feet, fewer sales, lower ticket prices, less revenue, and escalating rent.
> 
> The objective of my research is:
> 
> Sell in Vapestores?
> Sell online "ONLY" and pass the supply chain and retail space cost savings to consumers? Unfortunately, it can't be both.
> Brand positioning?
> Brand promise?
> Pricing and bottle size (R.vs 60/120ml)
> I want to thank everyone for sharing their views and opinions. It is giving me an invaluable perspective.
> 
> For me, this post and thread is NOT about BEING RIGHT but it is definitely about GETTING IT RIGHT.
> 
> Thank you




was on the same boat. My Price Plan is R160 worked it out to profitable especially as a start for 60ml. run specials R120 etc 

cost price am not discussing that yet (have to wait after covid see if my MF price changed since last quoted).

1 sell in vape stores yes Im going to do that eitherway.
2 sell online yes i have a commerce skill and intend on using it.
3 brand positioning.. everywhere i can where i am wanted. Planning on international too got the costs for UAE (crazy) and looking around for USA and EU got plans drawn out first see the local market to make the bucks first i dont mind blowing 100k on an investment if i have 100k to make said investment.
4. brand promise Flavor strong flavor thats my thing i want to vape a grape i must taste it no nonsense and i believe ive achieved this.
5. got it down but keeping what i said about price especially in this economy my brand isnt on the level of Gbom or TKO yet so i cannot expect this price point and maybe i wont ever rise it who knows.


lots of juice came and went lots of local juice i distaste compared to US juice but met a few guys and vaped some great local juices.
we all have preferences though and I love fruit i want to show off what i love.


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