# Cotinine/Nicotine test



## Marzuq

So i needed to have some tests done this week. A cotinine or better known as a nicotine test was on the list. 

The results was 343. Nicotine levels for a non-smoker is rated at 0-50. i vape 3mg nicotine juices. just to give you a comparison.

Its quite smart of health professionals and insurers to now look at nicotine content in your blood and use the nicotine as a measure of determining whether to brand you as a smoker or not.

Reactions: Informative 3


----------



## gertvanjoe

and the reading for smokers are ?

Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk


----------



## imiago

@Marzuq, I have been through the same story. I had a huge fight with them (Insurance company) about it, but the SA insurance companies do not distinguish between Vaping and Smoking (at least mine does not). If you have Nicotine in your blood you must be a smoker


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Viper_SA

Also curious what a smoker's levels would be

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Tom. F

What Gert and Viper said.


----------



## argief

Pardon the referenced site, I do by no means condone smoking during pregnancy but the science serves the purpose:




Full resource here.


----------



## Wash

Will people who use nicotine gum then also be penalised as smokers? What about patches? And nicotine inhalers? Pretty much any form of NRT for that matter!


----------



## Coco

Old issue - SA is behind the times. You have Nicotine in your blood, you are a smoker. I've had this fight with 2 insurance companies.

Labelled as "a smoker", proud of my "smoking" habit


----------



## Marzuq

gertvanjoe said:


> and the reading for smokers are ?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk


According to the insurance ppl anything over 50 means you a smoker. that could be 1 stinkie a day to a pack a day.
For future reference for anyone going for these tests. refrain from vaping for 10 days. your blood work should come out fine when tested


----------



## Wash

Not vaping for 10 days might make the bloodwork come out fine, but what do you do with all the bodies? 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Funny 7


----------



## BhavZ

Marzuq said:


> According to the insurance ppl anything over 50 means you a smoker. that could be 1 stinkie a day to a pack a day.
> For future reference for anyone going for these tests. refrain from vaping for 10 days. your blood work should come out fine when tested


10 days is not enough

It takes approximately 20 days for the Cotinine level to be below 50.


----------



## Marzuq

BhavZ said:


> 10 days is not enough
> 
> It takes approximately 20 days for the Cotinine level to be below 50.





Just some extra info...

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## BhavZ

http://www.newhealthguide.org/How-Long-Does-It-Take-For-Nicotine-To-Completely-Leave-The-Body.html

*How Long Does It Take for Nicotine to Completely Leave the Body?*
When nicotine is taken in through smoking or chewing tobacco, it is changed into cotinine in the lungs and liver before being passed out of the body in urine. Nicotine and cotinine can be detected in the blood, urine, saliva and hair.

*1. Nicotine in Blood*
The blood test for nicotine is very accurate.

*How to Test: *For a blood test for nicotine, a lab can measure either presence or absence of nicotine (or cotinine) or an absolute level of the toxins. A blood sample will be drawn for this test.

*Time: *The time nicotine remains in the blood will be variable depending on whether nicotine or cotinine is being tested. If the lab is testing for nicotine levels, the nicotine will typically be gone within 1-3 days after you stop using tobacco. If the lab is testing for cotinine levels, the cotinine will continue to be detectable for 1-10 days after the last use of tobacco.

*2. Nicotine in Urine*
Cheap and easy to do, the urine test is the most common way to test for nicotine.

*How to Test: *A urine sample will be collected and a test strip is then dipped into the urine for 5 minutes. This test will be either positive (cotinine is present in the urine) or negative (no cotinine is detected).

*Time: *Nicotine and cotinine levels in the urine are usually not detectable within 3-4 days after stopping use of tobacco products. However, for passive smokers, urine nicotine test can be positive for as long as 15 to 20 days. Cotinine may also take longer to be excreted with wastes if menthol cigarettes are used.


----------



## Marzuq

BhavZ said:


> http://www.newhealthguide.org/How-Long-Does-It-Take-For-Nicotine-To-Completely-Leave-The-Body.html
> 
> *How Long Does It Take for Nicotine to Completely Leave the Body?*
> When nicotine is taken in through smoking or chewing tobacco, it is changed into cotinine in the lungs and liver before being passed out of the body in urine. Nicotine and cotinine can be detected in the blood, urine, saliva and hair.
> 
> *1. Nicotine in Blood*
> The blood test for nicotine is very accurate.
> 
> *How to Test: *For a blood test for nicotine, a lab can measure either presence or absence of nicotine (or cotinine) or an absolute level of the toxins. A blood sample will be drawn for this test.
> 
> *Time: *The time nicotine remains in the blood will be variable depending on whether nicotine or cotinine is being tested. If the lab is testing for nicotine levels, the nicotine will typically be gone within 1-3 days after you stop using tobacco. If the lab is testing for cotinine levels, the cotinine will continue to be detectable for 1-10 days after the last use of tobacco.
> 
> *2. Nicotine in Urine*
> Cheap and easy to do, the urine test is the most common way to test for nicotine.
> 
> *How to Test: *A urine sample will be collected and a test strip is then dipped into the urine for 5 minutes. This test will be either positive (cotinine is present in the urine) or negative (no cotinine is detected).
> 
> *Time: *Nicotine and cotinine levels in the urine are usually not detectable within 3-4 days after stopping use of tobacco products. However, for passive smokers, urine nicotine test can be positive for as long as 15 to 20 days. Cotinine may also take longer to be excreted with wastes if menthol cigarettes are used.




So basically you agreeing with me.


----------



## BhavZ

If the draw blood it's 10 days, if urine test its 20 days

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


----------



## BhavZ

I did both blood test and Urine test after 10 days of vaping zero. The blood test did not pick it up but the urine test did.

Reactions: Informative 2


----------



## Silver

Thanks guys
Very informative and interesting

Just dont like the mention they make of menthol cigarettes taking longer for the cotinine to come out

Me and my menthol vapes! i will probably need 30 days

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## BumbleBee

@BigGuy was looking into this a while ago, wonder if he has any new light to shed on this?

Side note: I consume a _lot_ of broccoli!

Oh, those buggers also do surprise blood tests, they rock up at your office unannounced with a big needle and a happy attitude, so no 10-20 days notice.


----------



## gertvanjoe

I'd like to see them rock up at mine  Unarmed perimeter observers , armed guards at primary entry, access control  . O btw I'm just an electrician

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MilkDromeda

One of the life assures (not going to mention the name) has now specifically stated on their application forms as one of the questions: Do you smoke X amount per day be it cigarettes, e-liquid (Vaporiser) or Hubbly Bubbly.

So if you state you are a non smoker as we all do but they test for cotinine in any case and pick up levels of a smoker your premium will be loaded.


----------



## BigGuy

From personal experience after 3 months they cant pick up nicotine even though they state you have to be off nicotine for 12 to be classified as non smoker.

The true test is when i have been on 0mg for 3 months i am going to send an application to the insurers stating that i am a vaper but do not use nicotine. I will fight this tooth and nail to get non smoker rates ( please note i am in the industry so don't try this until i have been successful) they will then come back and say the application says you are a a smoker because you ticked vaping, i will then say yes but you are concerned about the nicotine can you find nicotine NO!!! then give me non smoker rates. Because they are sitting on the fence milking the vapers because they have no proof neither that says vaping is bad. Then they will come back and say its the PG OR VG OR flavors i will then say please can you load every single client who uses any medicine with Glycerin and every client who eats any form of food that has flavors added to it. They cant win i just have to get my nic down to 0mg. on 1.5mg now. But dont worry i will fight the fight and my plan of attack will be shard with you all if you want to take advantage of it, because once they do it once they have to do it again.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2


----------



## BigGuy

Just some more info the insurance companies rely on a cotanine test which pics up nic, but if they used a Anabasin test or a carbon monoxide test which by the way cost a third of what a cotanine test costs this will clearly differentiate a smoker from a vaper but they refuse to do such. I have had numerous discussion with medical officers from all the big insurance houses around this issue.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Silver

BigGuy said:


> Just some more info the insurance companies rely on a cotanine test which pics up nic, but if they used a Anabasin test or a carbon monoxide test which by the way cost a third of what a cotanine test costs this will clearly differentiate a smoker from a vaper but they refuse to do such. I have had numerous discussion with medical officers from all the big insurance houses around this issue.



Hi @BigGuy 
I applaud you for your plan in this regard. Thank you. 
I am most certainly going to follow your feedback on this with much interest

I just have a few comments and questions if i may. I would be interested to hear your take. 


Am I right in saying that the insurers should NOT classify a vaper (who vapes nic juice) in the same class as a smoker?
When they classify a smoker, do they adjust the premiums based on how many you smoke per day? I.e. Based on the result of the cotinine test?
We know from Marzuq and others' results above that the cotinine result for a vaper is considerably lower than that of a smoker, so if that is their only test at this point, then do us vapers get recognised for having less cotinine than say a pack a day (20 a day) smoker? Or are all smokers treated the same?
What I am getting at is that I dont really mind if we as vapers are not classified the same as a non-smoker non-vaper, but it would be unfair if we were just lumped into a general single category of "smoker" without any recognition for the lower harm - even if its just a lower cotinine result. 
Another thing, have you chatted to the medical officers at Discovery? I would imagine that they would/should be at the forefront of recognising vapers given that Dr Derek Yach has been so vocal about the reduced harm of vaping and he is the head of their Vitality Institute.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MilkDromeda

@Silver,

That is exactly what happens, be it vapers, smokers or hubbly users they treat everyone the same. Being in the industry myself I will have a chat with the head of the life cover department of *insert company name* and see what I can find out. 

All if not most of the life assures have there respective programs, ie Discovery Vitality. This is suppose to promote and encourage healthy living and vaping is that encouragement to smokers seeking the alternative.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## BigGuy

@Silver Thanks dude its a slow bureaucratic process but i have enough ammunition to proove my side now just have to get on 0mg for 3 months.

to answer your questions.

1. You are right they should NOT classify vapers as smokers but they currently do do that. ( there answer is there is not enough long term info on vaping to make an informed decision)
2. Yes the insurance companies adjust your premium if your a smoker the average person pays about 1 1/2 times or more for their cover being a smoker. The cotinine test just proves that you have nicotine in your system it does not prove how much you smoke as far as i know.
3. No, nicotine is nicotine in their eyes, yes the amount does fluctuate based on your nicotine level the same way as a 10 day lexington smoker will vary from a 10 a day infinite light smoker. they have a level which indicates if you are a passive smoker or if you are a smoker. The funny thing though every person who has a nicotine test will show that they hae nicotine in their system because of the pollution we breath daily. Now if you do a carbon monoxide test the results are very clear if you are a smoker or a vaper, a smoker will blow off the chart where a vaper will hardly register. And then if you do an anabasin test which is a dipstick test this will pick up the tar in your system which is not present in a vaper. So thats where in my opinion the insurers are dragging their heals.
4. Yes we are lumped in as one group unfortunately, what my proposal is that they rate us differently and significantly reduce the loading and to only load us on dread disease type of benefits as this is the only area of real concern to them. with 25 years in the industry i have a very clear game plan here and have the product already designed for vapers i just need to have the numbers behind me when i make my move to show them that we mean business and no longer will we allow them to classify us the same as a smoker. The reasoning they give me for not doing this currently is the same reasoning i am going to use against them.


So if any of you vapers want to speed the process up and to allow me to use you as a guinea pig i would appreciate it otherwise i have to wait for at least 4 months before i can make my move. Must be on 0mg for at least 3 months or more and must not have had a stinky in that 3 month period as well.

No i have not spoken to discovery i have however spoken to Sanlam, Old Mutual, Momentum, Lloyds of London, Swiss Re and Brightrock. All with the same response.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## Silver

Thanks @BigGuy

Strength to you on this! Any pressure on them in this regard can only help us all. 

Many thanks for your feedback.

Reactions: Thanks 1


----------



## Diether

Yup, I have also been demoted to a smoker again! Here's what I wrote, and waiting to get a reply:
>>>
I must say that I’m rather disappointed that Liberty see me as a smoker even though I have not had a cigarette or any tobacco product since the beginning of May last year. Inhaling steam is far from the definition of smoking, the only element in common between the two is nicotine – unless you vape _without_ nicotine.

For this reason I asked you to find the way that _my_ smoking status was defined when I signed the contract_ initially_. I understood it to be the lighting up, and inhalation of burning tobacco products such as cigarettes, cigars, cigarellos and pipes. The question really is, how would the reasonable person understand the term “smoker” as it was meant in the _original contract some 15 years ago_.

1) If Liberty have changed their definition since then, then surely they should have advised their clients accordingly.
2) How trustworthy is the wording in these contracts if insurers claim the right to (after the fact) change the common understanding/meaning of words without informing clients?
<<


----------



## DominionZA

Just recently signed up with Liberty. Even though I stated "smoker" (don't want claims denied cause of lying or whatever), they did not load my premiums at all. 
Using 1.8mg nic and apparently not picked up in the blood tests (or something like that).

Reactions: Like 1


----------

