# Results of some eliquid tests



## Xhale

http://www.cloud9vaping.co.uk/Blog/Liquid-test-results
cloud9 is an old time vendor, proper upfront and been around since the year dot. They always have the cool stuff first...and now they tested their range of eliquids.

old xhale sitting here with a brand new bottle of castle long, unopened, and now wondering if I should even bother

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Silver

Xhale said:


> http://www.cloud9vaping.co.uk/Blog/Liquid-test-results
> cloud9 is an old time vendor, proper upfront and been around since the year dot. They always have the cool stuff first...and now they tested their range of eliquids.
> 
> old xhale sitting here with a brand new bottle of castle long, unopened, and now wondering if I should even bother



Thanks for the alert @Xhale 
I have moved this thread to "General Eliquid talk"

Paging @Andre
Oh no, our Bowdens Mate came up very badly in their test...
Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl
This vendor has withdrawn the entire Five Pawns range. Gosh. 

This is definitely worrying since i have liked Five Pawns from the first time they came in to SA (via VapeKing). Have bought several bottles of various flavours. Not an adv but I do vape it from time to time. Just surprises me how Five Pawns would make liquids with bad substances in them. I thought they were the pinnacle of juice mixology. Surely they would know better?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Andre

Silver said:


> Thanks for the alert @Xhale
> I have moved this thread to "General Eliquid talk"
> 
> Paging @Andre
> Oh no, our Bowdens Mate came up very badly in their test...
> Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl
> This vendor has withdrawn the entire Five Pawns range. Gosh.
> 
> This is definitely worrying since i have liked Five Pawns from the first time they came in to SA (via VapeKing). Have bought several bottles of various flavours. Not an adv but I do vape it from time to time. Just surprises me how Five Pawns would make liquids with bad substances in them. I thought they were the pinnacle of juice mixology. Surely they would know better?


Noted, thank you @Silver and @Xhale. Shall follow further developments with interest.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## vapegerm

Wow that's really concerning- have had my fair share of Five Pawns over the last few months . Hopefully nothing as serious as the 40 Marlboro lights I used to smoke a day.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## BumbleBee

Hmmm, I have never tried any of the Five Pawns, there are a few I'd like to try but now it seems that waiting a little longer may be a good idea, at least until the dust settles.

Thanks for the heads up @Xhale


----------



## johan

IMO the wee-bit of Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl are very, very far from dangerous levels compared to an ordinary stinkie.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5


----------



## DarkSide

My very first juice purchased on Day 1 of vaping was from Five Pawns and still enjoy "my first love", namely Grandmaster and I am on the waiting list for the additional juices, and I will stay on the waiting list until they, possibly, also get taken off by our local vendor.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## DarkSide

johan said:


> IMO the wee-bit of Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl are very, very far from dangerous levels compared to an ordinary stinkie.



And Diacetyl is one of the compounds that give butter its characteristic taste

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## Matt

Looked up the list with tests from vapor shark more brands that are also sold in SA. Personally not to worried about it. 

http://vapeaboutit.com/vaporshark-lab-tests-reveal-alarming-results-top-e-liquid-brands/


----------



## Rob Fisher

This is a really interesting thread and one I'm gonna watch very closely... the fact that so many of the juices contain these "bad" ingredients does worry me and there is little doubt that the yellow and red listed juices will be boycotted and quite rightly so... we are striving to get healthy and kick the terrible habit of tobacco addiction with all the associated poisons... and if a juice is found to contain even small doses of Diacetyl and Acetyl that not kewl at all. Yes there is no doubt that they are still way safer than smoking stinkies... but now that we know we are being "hoodwinked" because they are using these chemicals to enhance flavour despite a risk to the end user annoys me no end! Is is just this kind of shit that will give the protagonists the ammo they are looking for.

Yes all these juices are safer than cigarettes but the fact of the matter is they contain shit we don't want in our lungs. Period! Will I finish my bottle of Indian Giver... yes probably... will I buy it again? Nope.

Now we need to find a local chemist that can test some of our local juices. Anyone got any contacts?

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


----------



## huffnpuff

Matt said:


> Looked up the list with tests from vapor shark more brands that are also sold in SA. Personally not to worried about it.
> 
> http://vapeaboutit.com/vaporshark-lab-tests-reveal-alarming-results-top-e-liquid-brands/



Quicklink to the results from above article


----------



## free3dom

Bring on the bad stuff...I have no problems with any of these. I smoked for way to long and did way too much damage to now worry about a little bit of "not so nice" 

It's good that the info is out there, but I'll not make a decision on what I vape based on this information - if the flavour is good and these are used to get it there then I don't care. 

Choice is the ultimate power, and it's fueled by knowledge

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Can relate 1


----------



## Silver

Rob Fisher said:


> This is a really interesting thread and one I'm gonna watch very closely... the fact that so many of the juices contain these "bad" ingredients does worry me and there is little doubt that the yellow and red listed juices will be boycotted and quite rightly so... we are striving to get healthy and kick the terrible habit of tobacco addiction with all the associated poisons... and if a juice is found to contain even small doses of Diacetyl and Acetyl that not kewl at all. Yes there is no doubt that they are still way safer than smoking stinkies... but now that we know we are being "hoodwinked" because they are using these chemicals to enhance flavour despite a risk to the end user annoys me no end! Is is just this kind of shit that will give the protagonists the ammo they are looking for.
> 
> Yes all these juices are safer than cigarettes but the fact of the matter is they contain shit we don't want in our lungs. Period! Will I finish my bottle of Indian Giver... yes probably... will I buy it again? Nope.
> 
> Now we need to find a local chemist that can test some of our local juices. Anyone got any contacts?



Hi @Rob Fisher 

I agree with you.

Although we were likely far more exposed to "bad stuff" when we smoked, we now are more keen to know the level of "bad stuff" in our vaping. 

I will be watching this with much interest going forward

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Silver

huffnpuff said:


> Quicklink to the results from above article



Thanks @huffnpuff 
I cant seem to get past page 3 of the 6 pages. It wants me to download their app. Am on my iPad. Can you see all the pages?


----------



## Rob Fisher

Silver said:


> Thanks @huffnpuff
> I cant seem to get past page 3 of the 6 pages. It wants me to download their app. Am on my iPad. Can you see all the pages?



On my PC with Chrome I can see all the pages Hi Ho...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Thanks 1


----------



## Silver

Thanks, got to see all the pages using Chrome on my PC

Some of those juices are available locally and have red marks against their name...
Wow @Rob Fisher Indian Giver has a very high AP number.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## huffnpuff

free3dom said:


> Bring on the bad stuff...I have no problems with any of these. I smoked for way to long and did way too much damage to now worry about a little bit of "not so nice"
> 
> It's good that the info is out there, but I'll not make a decision on what I vape based on this information - if the flavour is good and these are used to get it there then I don't care.
> 
> Choice is the ultimate power, and it's fueled by knowledge


Agree, but look at it from an avoidable risk vs liability point of view. Nicotine levels are indicated, so a consumer can choose what he wants, but nothing is done for the nasties in flavors, so there's no choice. If a company knows of an avoidable risk in it's products and continues to sell it to consumers without removing the risk or at the very least informing the consumer, then they are liable.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Andre

Silver said:


> Thanks, got to see all the pages using Chrome on my PC
> 
> Some of those juices are available locally and have red marks against their name...
> Wow @Rob Fisher Indian Giver has a very high AP number.


I am sure some of our local juices will be quite high in diketones. Here are Nicoticket's test results:

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## pimcowboy

Heres more info:

https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic...shark_sent_every_eliquid_that_they_carry_and/
vaporshark sent every e-liquid that they carry and had them tested for diacetyl and acetyl propionyl. Some of the results came back EXTREMELY high. Some liquids tested positive from companies who have been saying their liquid was free of DA and AP. All test results are now on their website. (self.electronic_cigarette)

submitted 14 days ago by burnt_wickMy vaping podcast: http://bit.ly/clickbang

A big thumbs up to vaporshark for doing this. The expenses associated with testing e-liquid for diacetyl (DA) and acetyl propionyl (AP) should be taken on by the e-liquid manufacturer. vaporshark took it upon themselves to do it, and put the results on their website so that their customers could decide for themselves if they want to take the risk of inhaling these chemicals.

Kudos to vaporshark for taking on the expense to make sure that they can give their customers the information that they need to make an educated decision based on scientific analysis and not hearsay.

You have to click on an individual flavor to access the lab results. I didn’t go through every liquid on the site, but these are the liquids that I checked that came up with very high levels:

Vintage E-Liquids - The Drifter 1867 ppm

Beard Vape Co. - #51 1843 ppm

Traditional Juice Co. - Indian Giver 1487 ppm

Cyclops Vapor - Colossus 1042 ppm

Alpha Vape - Sweet Tooth 815ppm

Must Vape - Pencil 759 ppm

KILO - Tru Blue 711 ppm

Omega Vape - Santeria 671 ppm

D Squared - Gritz 520 ppm

Hurricane Vapor - Papaya Milkshake 484 ppm

Cuttwood - Sugar Bear 468 ppm

Cosmic Fog - Milk & Honey 425 ppm

Like I said, I didn’t go through every liquid from every manufacturer. There are probably other liquids that tested very high that are on their website.

Hopefully we will see other distributors doing this, because it's pretty clear that we can't trust many of the e-liquid manufacturers to do this testing themselves.


----------



## rogue zombie

Im on the fence about this whole subject.

I have a mate who doesn't consume gluten, yeast, this and that... and basically he doesn't consume most of what I enjoy. Even "Light" softdrinks contain some or other chemical that is not good for the brain.

This coupled by living in JHB, so goodness knows what crap I'm inhaling all day long, makes me think that is this really of concern.

Smoking was a death sentence really, and I'd love vaping to be as safe as possible. BUT I always knew it was being made with flavourants intended for food. So I always knew if you put it under the microscope you will find something.... and at the end of the day, apparently EVERYTHING is bad for humans. 

I see the subject coming up regularly on DIY platforms, and I've noticed some people are actively looking for the flavourants that are okay, and others are completely not bothered.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


----------



## free3dom

huffnpuff said:


> Agree, but look at it from an avoidable risk vs liability point of view. Nicotine levels are indicated, so a consumer can choose what he wants, but nothing is done for the nasties in flavors, so there's no choice. If a company knows of an avoidable risk in it's products and continues to sell it to consumers without removing the risk or at the very least informing the consumer, then they are liable.



I totally agree, the info should definitely be available for those who want it - I'm all for that 

I personally make the choice not to be swayed by that information - but others should choose for themselves, with all the relevant info available

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## DarkSide

free3dom said:


> Bring on the bad stuff...I have no problems with any of these. I smoked for way to long and did way too much damage to now worry about a little bit of "not so nice"
> 
> It's good that the info is out there, but I'll not make a decision on what I vape based on this information - if the flavour is good and these are used to get it there then I don't care.
> 
> Choice is the ultimate power, and it's fueled by knowledge



Will still keep using all the Beard Vape juices till they are "taken away"

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Dirk

For all those following, particularly to the Five Pawns matter, this may be of interest to you:

http://fivepawns.com/five-pawns-test-results/

(released just hours ago...!)

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2


----------



## Keegan

Subscribed...

Would like to c other points of view (pov) especially since a ZA vendor removed the diketones "label" from their line up. 




Sent from the moon of Jupiter


----------



## Xhale

here's an update:
http://thegrumpyvaper.com/ecta-notifies-50-vendors-to-cease-sale-of-five-pawns/





tl;dr
canada trade organisation tells shops to remove select 5pawns flavours.

another update, ECITA (UK trade organisation) tells members to remove US juices without acceptable spec sheets (no link yet)


----------



## Xhale

some more
http://us8.campaign-archive2.com/?u=76dae2c390812190df36a9e35&id=c1a14040af&e=c785f263c0

quote:
Due to recent information and industry speculation around the Five Pawns E-Liquid range, and under the direction of ECITA we are removing from sale and *recalling* all Five Pawns flavours.
If you have purchased Five Pawns E-Liquid from us, either online or in-store, we ask that you do not continue to vape it and please return it to us at your earliest convenience. You will be given a refund, store credit or exchange for (a) product(s) of equal value.
/quote

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dirk

Though i'm certainly not in favour of poisoning myself, or anyone else for that matter, I'd still vape it ~ call me crazy, but I feel the small quantities I get of it, won't be the thing to kill me...

As previous posters have commented, we are in a world full of 'dangerousness', from food, to water, to air - to stress and all the rest.

I'm a big believer in moderation. None the less, keeping a very close eye on this too... tx for the updates - now lets see the 'finger' get pointed at ALL the other juices out there/right here!!!

It would be amazing if the alchemists that create all the wondrous flavours for us to enjoy could tweak their recipes to keep them as safe as possible. 

P.S... I'm ok with a little danger.


----------



## Xhale

I'm posting updates as and when they come to keep peeps informed..my personal opinion is more of a "meh"...I smoked Texan plain for a while.
One of the test did show fluctuating nicotine levels, such that a 3mg bottle may have only slightly less than 2mg. And the levels of "bad" stuff ended up being higher than the level of nicotine. Thats a bit of a bummer really.

I'm happy to make up my mind given the information, so my only concern is that this information was denied to users, lied to users, and then tried to shut the vendors up. Thats a no-no in my small book.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Dirk

Keep em coming!

I hear you, though am still unconvinced the results can be seen and judged fairly without a verified, consistent, and fully approved 'across the board' standard. 

What I've been wondering, is how it would be oh so great if they could 'test' the USERS (particularly the 5P founders, who must have surely vaped about more than anyone else)...! Run some kind of analysis on their lungs/other suspected threatened organs, and compare the results to a regular 'basic' vaper, a smoker (new and old), as well as fit as a fiddle gym bunny type. THAT would be (IMHO) the ultimate indicator really


----------



## Xhale

click bang podcast covered this topic.
I'm not a doctor, so this is my interpretation of how it was explained.

To figure out if this bad stuff did you harm, you need to do a lung tissue biospy on a dead person. Which is expensive, and requires you to be dead first.

If you are dead, and an ex-smoker, nobody is going to pay to find out if you died from bad lungs..or bad lungs with a bit of vaping issues. they go "oh, he;s dead, ...oh wow...a smoker with bad lungs died..." and thats the end of it.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## hands

Xhale said:


> I smoked Texan plain for a while


ooh wow i remember those bad boys.they where for growing hair on your back if i remember correctly

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## johan

Xhale said:


> some more
> http://us8.campaign-archive2.com/?u=76dae2c390812190df36a9e35&id=c1a14040af&e=c785f263c0
> 
> quote:
> Due to recent information and industry speculation around the Five Pawns E-Liquid range, and under the direction of ECITA we are removing from sale and *recalling* all Five Pawns flavours.
> If you have purchased Five Pawns E-Liquid from us, either online or in-store, we ask that you do not continue to vape it and please return it to us at your earliest convenience. You will be given a refund, store credit or exchange for (a) product(s) of equal value.
> /quote



Bollocks - I've paid dearly for me 5P Queenside, and vape I will .

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## SunRam

Rob Fisher said:


> This is a really interesting thread and one I'm gonna watch very closely... the fact that so many of the juices contain these "bad" ingredients does worry me and there is little doubt that the yellow and red listed juices will be boycotted and quite rightly so... we are striving to get healthy and kick the terrible habit of tobacco addiction with all the associated poisons... and if a juice is found to contain even small doses of Diacetyl and Acetyl that not kewl at all. Yes there is no doubt that they are still way safer than smoking stinkies... but now that we know we are being "hoodwinked" because they are using these chemicals to enhance flavour despite a risk to the end user annoys me no end! Is is just this kind of shit that will give the protagonists the ammo they are looking for.
> 
> Yes all these juices are safer than cigarettes but the fact of the matter is they contain shit we don't want in our lungs. Period! Will I finish my bottle of Indian Giver... yes probably... will I buy it again? Nope.
> 
> Now we need to find a local chemist that can test some of our local juices. Anyone got any contacts?


I fully agree that tests needs to be done on ZA liquids. I will certainly supply Vape Elixir samples to anyone with the ability to conduct such tests and I'm pretty sure all liquid manufacturers have their client's health as a primary concern and will agree to the same. 

The best I can do as a liquid manufacturer at the moment is to confirm (and trust that it's truthful), that independent laboratory tests in the USA have been conducted on my supplier's flavour concentrates, and ALL flavours used in the Vape Elixir range were found to be Diacetyl, Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl free, with the exception of Plasma Juice, which contains 0.001% Acetoin and Pink Spot which contains trace amounts of Acetoin. Of course the supplier does have many flavours that contain high percentages of Acetoin, like bakery, creamy, vanilla and custard flavours, but I've purposefully never made a liquid containing any of these.

Reactions: Like 3 | Thanks 1


----------



## RevnLucky7

1000 ppm....

If a part was a 30ml bottle of juice I'd vape 1000 bottles of Diacetyl for every 1 000 000 bottles of juice?

That leaves me with what?

1 full bottle of Diacetyl when I've finished my first 1000 bottles of Juice?

Let's see.... I vape 4 bottles a month.

That's 48 bottles a year. Roughly 30ml of pure Diacetyl in 21 years.

Given the current state of my knees, short term memory problems and the fact that I'd probably be married then for at least a decade, I personally would probably welcome poison at that point.

Kidding! Regulated me!

Reactions: Funny 6


----------



## Silver

Thanks for the updates @Xhale 

And thanks for the comment @SunRam

My luck :
- My favourite 5P is Bowdens Mate
- And from Vape Elixir, I loved Plasma

Lol

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Oupa

Great perspective @RevnLucky7 ! That works out to 0.03ml per 30ml bottle of juice.... mmmmmm not sure that is even close to the amount that the factory workers that got popcorn lung inhaled on a daily basis for long hours and many many years.

My opinion: it is blown way out of proportion by hype and scare mongering. Like MSG in food and sweeteners in diet sodas (but that is a whole other conversation for another day on a completely different forum ).

But if customers feel it is important to know, then it will be important for all manufacturers to eventually have their juices tested and the amounts of these so called suspect ingredients stated for each flavour on their websites. Regulation is coming... could be a year, it could be 3 years.

I do not think it will be good enough for vendors to go by what your flavour supplier tells you, as they have been proven wrong as well. The only way will be to get it tested by an independent laboratory.

My

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 6


----------



## Dirk

So, just to get the 'feels' on this one, if I were to still bring in 5P in 3mg and 6mg, I'd have some takers, yes ?


----------



## Rob Fisher

Dirk said:


> So, just to get the 'feels' on this one, if I were to still bring in 5P in 3mg and 6mg, I'd have some takers, yes ?



No thanks. Never been a fan of 5P's anyway!


----------



## SunRam

Interesting read: http://vaping.com/blog/confused-about-diacetyl-you-should-be

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2


----------



## Silver

SunRam said:


> Interesting read: http://vaping.com/blog/confused-about-diacetyl-you-should-be



Thanks @SunRam - that was a very interesting read indeed
I like the part about relative risk

I have copied and pasted the author's final opinion below, which I think makes a lot of sense.

"My personal view is that unless and until the industry can show that DA/AP in e-liquid is safe for vapers, those whose liquids contain it should make it clear to consumers this is the case, either through a labelling convention or something else. This won’t solve everything, but it will at least confer some agency to the consumer to make informed decisions. I think the community really does need to push industry hard for this - even those who have no problem with consuming DA/AP should at least consider those who really do not want to, and have the right to know."

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


----------



## Viper_SA

If they remove AP and DA they will most likely just add something new to create the effect. Something we will know even less, if not nothing about.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## DarkSide

johan said:


> Bollocks - I've paid dearly for me 5P Queenside, and vape I will .



Fully agree, I have three bottles from Five Pawns and I will finish these.

Reactions: Like 2 | Can relate 1


----------



## DarkSide

johan said:


> Bollocks - I've paid dearly for me 5P Queenside, and vape I will .



@johan Such a way with words and such wisdom, when I grow up, I want to be just like you!

Reactions: Funny 1


----------

