# Let's talk about Oak matured e-juice



## Spyro (18/1/18)

So the new fad that goes around these days is Oak barrel matured e-juice and recently some other methods of maturing juice. 

I found no other thread on this but if there is please point me to it and erase this one.

This seems a little wrong to me. When one matures whiskey or wine the alcohol kills off the germs. With e-juice there is no such luxury. The wood contains bacteria. Cleaning the wood cannot remove the bacteria in it's entirety. And sealing the wood makes the entire process pointless.

I've seen people argue that the heat of the coils will kill the bacteria. This is false. Also what about spillage or spit back? Everyone drinks a little juice. 

I want to know what happens to this juice and why people are choosing flavour over what could potentially be a major health hazard. Are any of the manufacturers bothering to send it away to be cultured in a lab to test for any nasties? At less than R1000 for a lab test it seems like it should be mandatory. I have a feeling these lines will totally vanish as soon as the regulations set in. 

I would love for vendors to chime in. Because I don't understand the practise very well. I would love to send some away for testing but at this time R1000 for a lab test seems a waste to me - since I don't vape the stuff anyway.


Any input will be greatly appreciated. I'm not bashing the vendors here. I'm raising a genuine concern that I have.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 4 | Winner 2


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## Mr. B (18/1/18)

Great thread with interesting questions!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vape_N8th (18/1/18)

Following !

Reactions: Like 1


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## SmokeyJoe (18/1/18)

Excellent question @Spyro

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver (18/1/18)

Thread moved to the "Who has stock" subforum so vendors can reply more freely and discuss their services

Good thread @Spyro 

PS - just a headsup, vendors are not allowed to discuss their products/services in the general threads, so lets move it here

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## RichJB (18/1/18)

Would there be any more bacteria in oak than there would be on, say, an average kitchen surface like a chopping board? I think that if the same hygiene standards that were demanded of juice were applied to food, none of us would be allowed to cook at home, we'd all have to install ISO certified kitchens first.

If juice was that hazardous, I feel that we would have had a lot of reports of illness by now, especially considering the number of people who DIY in less than sterile conditions. One doesn't want to get lax about juice hygiene but I feel the risk is overstated. Considering how keen the media are to jump on stories of battery explosions, I would think they'd be all over vapers getting ill from juice. Yet there's been nothing.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 3


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## BioHAZarD (18/1/18)

Very interesting thread

Reactions: Like 1


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## Adephi (18/1/18)

Not sure if the creators would discuss their secrets in an open forum. But I can try with my limited amount of knowledge.

Oak barrels do get treated with hot water, sulphur and/or high sodium salts to kill any bacteria.if any bacteria is present they will end up making vinegar in stead of wine. The chance that any of these bacteria is pathogenic is extremely low.

Also, the pg and vg is void of any nutrients for the bacteria to grow and multiply. So depending on the time the juice is in the barrel, the bacteria will just starve to death.

And coils do get to 200°C. Any disease causing bacteria cannot survive temperature over 100°C. Even if its for a short time.

So I would say these mixes are safe for consumption.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## Spyro (18/1/18)

RichJB said:


> Would there be any more bacteria in oak than there would be on, say, an average kitchen surface like a chopping board? I think that if the same hygiene standards that were demanded of juice were applied to food, none of us would be allowed to cook at home, we'd all have to install ISO certified kitchens first.
> 
> If juice was that hazardous, I feel that we would have had a lot of reports of illness by now, especially considering the number of people who DIY in less than sterile conditions. One doesn't want to get lax about juice hygiene but I feel the risk is overstated. Considering how keen the media are to jump on stories of battery explosions, I would think they'd be all over vapers getting ill from juice. Yet there's been nothing.



True that, but I don't inhale my food, I'm not American JKJK. thanks for the input! Really appreciate it.



Adephi said:


> Not sure if the creators would discuss their secrets in an open forum. But I can try with my limited amount of knowledge.
> 
> Oak barrels do get treated with hot water, sulphur and/or high sodium salts to kill any bacteria.if any bacteria is present they will end up making vinegar in stead of wine. The chance that any of these bacteria is pathogenic is extremely low.
> 
> ...



Thanks! Some lovely info here. I hear you with the burning of the juice, but you do bring in juice in ways that aren't just via vapour. Mouthful from a flooding tank for example. 

I must say though that I'd be surprised if manufacturers were cleaning their barrels with those things, hot water perhaps. Not to say they don't though!

Appreciate the response, it clears up quite a bit. I'd be very interested to see if bacteria can grow in VG. I'll hit Google and see what I can find!


I'm sure vendors must have thought of this and done their research so I'd love to hear from a few of them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Spyro (18/1/18)

https://chemistry.stackexchange.com...in-promote-bacterial-growth-the-same-as-water




Usually the point of adding salt to water is to lower its activity, in order to make the water concentration_outside_ the cell _lower_ than on the inside. This leads to water wanting to escape the cell, causing osmotic pressure to swell the cell. With strong enough salt, the osmotic pressure bursts (lyses) the cell and it dies.


Water is miscible with glycerol, which makes glycerol an osmolyte. That means that glycerol _would have the same effect as salt_. Water mixed with glycerol is lower in concentration than pure water. Putting a happy aqueous bacterium into 100% glycerol will cause immense osmotic shock, probably resulting in death for most bacteria as they burst due to their intracellular water trying to escape to the extracellular, water-free (but glycerol rich) environment.


The downside of using glycerol is that at low concentrations (say 10 g/L or even 100 g/L) it is a *great food for many types of microorganisms*. Sure at >1000 g/L it is a deadly osmolyte, but at low concentrations, its a yummy food. Salt would merely_lose_ its effectiveness as it gets diluted, but glycerol on dilution becomes a potent agent that would_enhance_ microbial growth. For this reasons, and others (costs, viscosity) it is not often used (outside of laboratory settings)"

Edit: it also seems that PG is an antibacterial of sorts. More on this when I've educated myself properly and don't need to spam articles.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Adephi (18/1/18)

Spyro said:


> https://chemistry.stackexchange.com...in-promote-bacterial-growth-the-same-as-water
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I stand to be corrected on that last point. But the second point is what is related to us. No organism will survive the osmotic pressure of ejuice that is more than 95% glycerol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Steyn777 (18/1/18)

@Adephi is spot on. Same goes for whiskey. These barrels are originally designed and manufactured for this very purpose (wine, whiskey, etc)

Also, and I haven't researched this, would the nicotine alone not be enough to kill everything else not wanted?

Also, these barrels are charred by the manufacturer to get rid of bacteria...not saying it kills them all but that, the coils, the nicotine...should make it rather safe.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Spyro (18/1/18)

Steyn777 said:


> @Adephi is spot on. Same goes for whiskey. These barrels are originally designed and manufactured for this very purpose (wine, whiskey, etc)
> 
> Also, and I haven't researched this, would the nicotine alone not be enough to kill everything else not wanted?
> 
> Also, these barrels are charred by the manufacturer to get rid of bacteria...not saying it kills them all but that, the coils, the nicotine...should make it rather safe.




Glad you brought this up. I feel like the contamination would be from continued use of the barrel. Not from the manufacturer of said barrel.

Now as far as coils cooking the bacteria. The reason why I think this may not be true is because your juice will start to vaporise or perhaps evaporate? (Can it do that?) Even if for a very brief period with each fire - at a point before the coil reaches that temp needed to cook the bacterium. Maybe not? Busy reading up now. But I feel that the general conclusion here is going to be that it may be possible but the likeliness of it being enough to cause any harm is extremely unlikely.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Steyn777 (18/1/18)

@Spyro - That general conclusion is what I was going for.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Steyn777 (18/1/18)

@Spyro - That general conclusion is what I was going for.


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## 87hunter (18/1/18)

I'm glad you have bought this up.
It has been a thought in my mind over the last two months since I started DIY.

For me as s DIY enthusiast I won't be making 200 or so litres to warrent using a wine/port/sherry cask, BUT as a whiskey lover I have seen what looks like a stepped stick that is made from a barrel that can be placed into a whisky bottle to further age a whisky. I'll find the link when I've had some sleep. 
I was going to try it out before sharing my idea, but seems as we spit balling I might as well share. 

My idea has been to age a cheapish whiskey with said "stick" drink the whiskey and use the whiskey bottle to age the juice with the stick. 750ml less aging "stick" is more achievable than a couple hundred litres.

My second thought was using sherry barrel chips I use in my weber that have been soaked in whisky to once again age it.

My only concern is how long will it take for the wood to break down and create a mush.

This is just the readers digest version of my thoughts on this topic.

Great thread bud.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Adephi (18/1/18)

Got the old braincells going now.

The only 2 things that I can think off thats really a concern to vapers are

- Legionella. Can google it. Common in aircon units. If you have been in a aircon room for a long time and got a bit of a cough, you had legionella. People normally blame aircon for drying out the air when its the filters that needs to be sterilised. Not just rinsed under a tap. Highly doubt its something you will find in an oak barrel.

-Fungi. We breath in litteraly billions of spores a day without vaping. Unless you got a mushroom growing in your ejuice I dont see a few more spores to hurt.

Reactions: Like 1


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## daniel craig (18/1/18)

With @Rooigevaar 's good boy oak being so good, I don't even care about the health hazards (if there are any)

The oak barrel adds some nice notes to the juice and also smoothes it out. You can definitely tell the difference between an oak oged and a normal steeped juice.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Huffapuff (19/1/18)

If I'm not mistaken, PG is actually used in aircon units to deal with legionella. 

And I agree with @daniel craig - that oak aged good boy is worth the risk!

Whatever the miniscule risks that may arise from oak aged juice, it's still a million times less harmful than a cigarette.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Rude Rudi (19/1/18)

Mmmm...this is really a non issue me thinks...looking for something which has not caused any vaper any harm, ever.

With extremely strict FDA regulations, I find it difficult to believe that the (arguably) best vape juice in the world, Phillip Rocke Grand Reserve Créme De La Créme, is contaminated by the nasties as claimed above...

For your reading pleasure, consider the views of Philip Rocke, the creator and the "Vaping Community's Patron Saint of Artisanal E-liquid". In a very rare interview, he chats about the process of barrel ageing to produce Grand Reserve.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Spyro (19/1/18)

Rude Rudi said:


> Mmmm...this is really a non issue me thinks...looking for something which has not caused any vaper any harm, ever.
> 
> With extremely strict FDA regulations, I find it difficult to believe that the (arguably) best vape juice in the world, Phillip Rocke Grand Reserve Créme De La Créme, is contaminated by the nasties as claimed above...
> 
> ...




Thanks guys, appreciate all the responses. 

Rudi I wasn't claiming anything. Just asking questions to better my understanding. Just asking if they were checking to see if nasties existed. Also, looking for harm is something that should be at the very top of the to do list IMHO. We're aiming for healthier alternatives to smoking, not looking to replace it with another evil. 

Thanks for the reply! I'm going to give that link a look see when I'm home.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Greyz (19/1/18)

Real world performance:

I must have vaped 6x 30ml of Good Boy Oak Aged recently, I've yet to feel ill or grow a 3rd nipple

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## VapingSquid (19/1/18)

Rude Rudi said:


> For your reading pleasure, consider the views of Philip Rocke, the creator and the "Vaping Community's Patron Saint of Artisanal E-liquid". In a very rare interview, he chats about the process of barrel ageing to produce Grand Reserve.
> 
> View attachment 119580



Another topic entirely, but I heard that he may well not exist at all and that it was a marketing tool. Kinda like Ronald McDonald or the likes. "A relatable character, with a story and a passion to make X and share it with the world." I won't lie though, someone is making those juices and boy are they good! *cough* Looper *cough*

Reactions: Like 1


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## Spyro (19/1/18)

87hunter said:


> I'm glad you have bought this up.
> It has been a thought in my mind over the last two months since I started DIY.
> 
> For me as s DIY enthusiast I won't be making 200 or so litres to warrent using a wine/port/sherry cask, BUT as a whiskey lover I have seen what looks like a stepped stick that is made from a barrel that can be placed into a whisky bottle to further age a whisky. I'll find the link when I've had some sleep.
> ...




Have you thought about picking up a small barrel? I think they hold around 5L or so and this is what the juice makers are using. They go for around R400 each.

Reactions: Like 1


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## 87hunter (19/1/18)

Spyro said:


> Have you thought about picking up a small barrel? I think they hold around 5L or so and this is what the juice makers are using. They go for around R400 each.


I must Look for one. Dunno what I would mature yet. Haven't gotten into the tobaccos yet. Maybe a custard?


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## Adephi (19/1/18)

5l might be too much for a single flavour for one person to use. Maybe get some oak chips. 

Or mature some pg/vg and use that with mixes.

Reactions: Like 2


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