# The "It Couldn't Happen To Me" Thread



## Alex (15/5/17)

I'm sharing this post from a redditor in the hopes that someone may benefit in future.

The "It Couldn't Happen To Me" Thread... self.electronic_cigarette

submitted 5 hours ago * by CineSuppa

Hello all. 3 year vaper; 3 years of no smoking cigarettes. I've used this board mainly for research and have purchased both an Efest quad-battery charger and LG HG2's as result. But today I'm coming to you from the other side... a cautionary tale.

Because Wednesday night, the thing I thought would never happen to someone as careful as me did happen. I had a catastrophic battery failure.

My HanaModz requires both batteries be installed positive side up, something I have been extremely cautious to always do. There was no difference when I swapped my batteries out at a light on an empty street Wednesday night. I had the interior light on and visually confirmed I was installing the positive sides up, for each battery individually. First battery went in as usual, and the second one (after confirming the correct orientation) went in and immediately started shooting flames out the positive end.

The battery shot out of my device -- frying it -- and hitting me in the left forearm that was on the steering wheel. It bounced off my wrist and hit me in the stomach about 3 inches lower than my sternum, bounced off that, hit my steering wheel and then ricocheted across my right side at my ribcage level before wedging itself between my driver's seat and the center console, where I then noticed it was shooting red flames from both ends and was glowing red hot.

I made a stupid (or maybe not) decision to flick it out from its position before my car went up in flames and managed to get it to the floorboard by my feet. I immediately opened the door and kicked it onto the asphalt where it quickly stopped shooting flames out.

All of that happened in about 10 seconds, from installation through the end of it. But the damage was done.

I used a water bottle I had in my car to extinguish the fire that had started on my carpet and realized the next day it singed my seat belt as well as tore my t-shirt to shreds, and my body underneath it the same.

I bypassed a line of about 50 people at the ER and was immediately seen by specialists. I wasn't the first they'd seen dealing with chemical burns the result of high-powered batteries. Getting scrubbed sucked. Reapplying bandages twice daily sucks. Knowing I'm going to deal with this for 3 weeks at least, sucks.

**Check your batteries for imperfections EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU INSTALL THEM. And CHECK YOUR MOD FOR LOSE WIRES OR ANY OTHER ABNORMALITIES THAT CAN CAUSE A SHORT.

Past that... sometimes batteries fail, and thermal runaway simply sucks.**

I understand that fires like this -- extreme battery failures -- are uncommon, especially when installed correctly in devices (especially ones that have built-in protections).

EDIT 1 (FOR CLARITY):

In doing some research, it seems the design of 18650 batteries utilized in vaping devices differ from the protections of other 18650s for the necessary higher discharge rates.

BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POST:

But that means the only thing protecting you and those around you are the little rubber or ceramic grommet (white thing) near your positive terminal and the thin wrapper around your device. The only conclusion I can come to is one of those two was compromised in my second LG HG2 battery. But still, I've never heard of a failure occurring so rapidly.

There was no smoke. There was no warning. I put it in my device and it literally burst into flames a second later.

Cautionary tale for you guys.

EDIT 2: Seems some think I'm either lying or trying to get some karma.












EDIT 3:

This is the closest thing I could find to the thermal runaway I experienced... though in this video, it takes several seconds with off gassing first. I literally clicked the battery into the terminals and had just enough time to pull my hand away to grab the lid for reinstallation and my hand wasn't far away as I lost hair on my right wrist as well.



EDIT 4:

Finding all sorts of articles on thermal runaway and how fast it can happen:

http://www.livescience.com/50643-watch-lithium-battery-explode.html

source: h t t p s ://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/comments/6b75ks/the_it_couldnt_happen_to_me_thread/

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1 | Can relate 1 | Informative 8


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## Silver (15/5/17)

Thanks @Alex 
Scary stuff

Do you think he inserted the batteries incorrectly or just worn insulator/wrap ?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Christos (15/5/17)

Silver said:


> Thanks @Alex
> Scary stuff
> 
> Do you think he inserted the batteries incorrectly or just worn insulator/wrap ?


Sounds like a dead short from worn insulator and wrap or a tear.
The battery wraps tear easily so it's not hard to see how a sharp connector could tear a wrap and short a battery.

The thermal runaway so fast after a short could be old batteries or a fake LG perhaps.

The entire body of an 18650 is a negative terminal with only the top section being positive.
A rogue or sharp contact could easily tear a wrap and an insulator.
Pic for reference.

Reactions: Thanks 2 | Informative 2


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## Silver (15/5/17)

Thanks @Christos - 

I need to inspect my battery wraps more frequently
I am very careful with handling and replacing batteries in my mods but sometimes one is in a bit of a hurry, so things I suppose can easily get damaged.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Alex (15/5/17)

Silver said:


> Thanks @Alex
> Scary stuff
> 
> Do you think he inserted the batteries incorrectly or just worn insulator/wrap ?



Sounds like a short between the + - terminal on the battery, probably due to a faulty/torn battery insulator.

Reactions: Thanks 1 | Informative 2


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## Christos (15/5/17)

Silver said:


> Thanks @Christos -
> 
> I need to inspect my battery wraps more frequently
> I am very careful with handling and replacing batteries in my mods but sometimes one is in a bit of a hurry, so things I suppose can easily get damaged.


Some mods have a tendency to rip wraps.
Some battery wraps I have noticed become brittle with age.
A mild touch with a mod in my case has resulted in the wrap crumbling and breaking. I have subsequently re wrapped the battery but didn't take pics.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Silver (15/5/17)

Alex said:


> Sounds like a short between the + - terminal on the battery, probably due to a faulty/torn battery insulator.



Thanks

If that happened to me in my car - i would be so upset

That said, i dont recall ever changing batteries in my car, that gets done mostly near my charging/battery station - so if something goes wrong there it will probably just fall down on the tiled floor.... Hopefuly...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Feliks Karp (15/5/17)

Alex said:


> But still, I've never heard of a failure occurring so rapidly.



This is exactly what happens with a true dead short (not aimed @Alex, I know it's not you in the article).

Is there anyone on here that could maybe start a sticky somewhere explaining various electronic/electrical terms and failures?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Alex (15/5/17)

On second thought @Silver, I think what likely took place is that one of the batteries was inserted the wrong way, even though he says he took great care to make sure. 

*"and the second one (after confirming the correct orientation) went in and immediately started shooting flames out the positive end."*

Remember that time when something similar happened to me at that breakfast place, it was instant flames. I don't know what reverse polarity protection exists in the Hanamodz, but if it exists, then it likely failed.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Silver (15/5/17)

Alex said:


> On second thought @Silver, I think what likely took place is that one of the batteries was inserted the wrong way, even though he says he took great care to make sure.
> 
> *"and the second one (after confirming the correct orientation) went in and immediately started shooting flames out the positive end."*
> 
> Remember that time when something similar happened to me at that breakfast place, it was instant flames. I don't know what reverse polarity protection exists in the Hanamodz, but if it exists, then it likely failed.



Thanks @Alex 

Who knows but it sounds like you are right.

I do recall your ordeal. Wasnt that with the mosfet box you built?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## craigb (15/5/17)

Christos said:


> Some mods have a tendency to rip wraps.
> Some battery wraps I have noticed become brittle with age.
> A mild touch with a mod in my case has resulted in the wrap crumbling and breaking. I have subsequently re wrapped the battery but didn't take pics.


My guardian epipe eats battery wraps for breakfast, lunch, dinner and as snacks. 

The battery compartment is so tight that just removing a battery (carefully, not blindly ripping it out) has nicked a wrap.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## shabbar (15/5/17)

craigb said:


> My guardian epipe eats battery wraps for breakfast, lunch, dinner and as snacks.
> 
> The battery compartment is so tight that just removing a battery (carefully, not blindly ripping it out) has nicked a wrap.



Same goes with my vgod pro 150.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Darryn Du Plessis (15/5/17)

Lets also lists some mods that like to eat battery rappers:


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## SAVaper (15/5/17)

Silver said:


> Thanks
> 
> If that happened to me in my car - i would be so upset
> 
> That said, i dont recall ever changing batteries in my car, that gets done mostly near my charging/battery station - so if something goes wrong there it will probably just fall down on the tiled floor.... Hopefuly...



I do the same.
I need to get some new wraps.


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## SAVaper (15/5/17)

craigb said:


> My guardian epipe eats battery wraps for breakfast, lunch, dinner and as snacks.
> 
> The battery compartment is so tight that just removing a battery (carefully, not blindly ripping it out) has nicked a wrap.



I agree 100%
My Guardian pipe does exactly the same.


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## RichJB (15/5/17)

There is a simple answer to this: stop using industry-level 18650s with flimsy gossamer-thin wraps and instead pressure manufacturers to supply batteries with a rigid cover. This is what Big Tobacco cigalikes and Twisps have done from the start and it is why their batteries don't go into thermal runaway. You will need a pair of pliers, a hacksaw and a lot of elbow grease to compromise the integrity of those battery casings. They come in sealed hard vinyl covers that are impervious to nicks and abrasion.

The 18650s we use were not designed to be handled daily and repeatedly put into and taken out of devices. They were designed to be joined together in battery packs which the user never disassembles. We shouldn't need to rewrap our batteries. The manufacturers should instead supply sturdier wraps from the get-go. The industry is surely mature enough now to implement this?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4 | Winner 1


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## Christos (15/5/17)

RichJB said:


> There is a simple answer to this: stop using industry-level 18650s with flimsy gossamer-thin wraps and instead pressure manufacturers to supply batteries with a rigid cover. This is what Big Tobacco cigalikes and Twisps have done from the start and it is why their batteries don't go into thermal runaway. You will need a pair of pliers, a hacksaw and a lot of elbow grease to compromise the integrity of those battery casings. They come in sealed hard vinyl covers that are impervious to nicks and abrasion.
> 
> The 18650s we use were not designed to be handled daily and repeatedly put into and taken out of devices. They were designed to be joined together in battery packs which the user never disassembles. We shouldn't need to rewrap our batteries. The manufacturers should instead supply sturdier wraps from the get-go. The industry is surely mature enough now to implement this?


perhaps we can convince the guys that rubberize bakkies to rubberize 18650's


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## RichJB (15/5/17)

I'm surprised the industry hasn't taken steps already. Although it might prove tricky. My understanding is that vaping is a minor player in the 18650 market. Samsung, Sony and LG manufacture mostly for the electric vehicle and some other sectors. Vaping (and some other industries) buy up the "B" bin batteries that don't go to the key customers. Additionally, the big three don't seem to want anything to do with vaping, judging from their "these products are not intended for use in electronic cigarettes" warnings. And then some of their other customers might not want thick sturdy wraps, even in "B" bin batteries. So it's questionable how willing the big three will be to play along.

But the industry should be big enough now to have suppliers who comply with needs. If we look at the juice sector, vaping also isn't the core business of the flavour houses, they mostly supply the food & beverage sector. Yet they were perfectly willing to reformulate their products when the DAAP scare affected vaping. The battery makers should be willing to do the same. This isn't just a bunch of hobbyists anymore, it's a global industry now.


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## aktorsyl (15/5/17)

RichJB said:


> I'm surprised the industry hasn't taken steps already. Although it might prove tricky. My understanding is that vaping is a minor player in the 18650 market. Samsung, Sony and LG manufacture mostly for the electric vehicle and some other sectors. Vaping (and some other industries) buy up the "B" bin batteries that don't go to the key customers. Additionally, the big three don't seem to want anything to do with vaping, judging from their "these products are not intended for use in electronic cigarettes" warnings. And then some of their other customers might not want thick sturdy wraps, even in "B" bin batteries. So it's questionable how willing the big three will be to play along.
> 
> But the industry should be big enough now to have suppliers who comply with needs. If we look at the juice sector, vaping also isn't the core business of the flavour houses, they mostly supply the food & beverage sector. Yet they were perfectly willing to reformulate their products when the DAAP scare affected vaping. The battery makers should be willing to do the same. This isn't just a bunch of hobbyists anymore, it's a global industry now.


If intermediary suppliers are willing to re-wrap with thicker wraps (plus have guarantees that it's the real thing they're re-wrapping), that would be a good step. But then nothing would fit in the current mods, so they in turn have to adapt. It's a big shift that'll need to happen.
But a necessary one, I agree.

PS: FlavourArt's biggest business is now the e-liquid industry, I believe. Saw an interview with their CEO.. not sure where I found the link. On here somewhere, I think?


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## Scissorhands (15/5/17)

Im all for safer batteries but none of my gear and i assume most gear (there will be exceptions) has tolerance for thicker wraps, it would be easier for us to re wrap batteries using electrical heat shrink if manufacturers increased tolerance wich may include battery rattle


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## RichJB (15/5/17)

There would be some disruption during the changeover period but that is inevitable with progress. Think of the disruption when they implemented the sewage system and huge cities like London and Paris had to have every garden and sidewalk dug up to lay pipes to connect them to the new sewage system. Or, more recently, the disruption when unleaded petrol was introduced. The turnaround on mods isn't every long. How many people are still vaping the same mod they were using this time last year?

I reckon they should source a supplier who will provide the right batteries, and then have all new mods made to fit the thicker batteries. Those who have existing mods will simply continue to use their existing 18650s. As they upgrade, they will transition across. It would probably take a year or so, then it's done and dusted and we can put venting due to shorts behind us. Well worth the temporary hassle imo.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Feliks Karp (15/5/17)

Honestly, with hover boards and cell phones and wireless earphones combusting on a fairly regular basis, I don't see this as problem that will be solved by better battery wraps, while they probably will help to a degree, alot of these are user end and electronic failures, such as faulty PCBs. There are enough stories of the self-contained batteries in cigalikes also exploding from over charging (again electronic failure).

The story in OP is not a bad battery wrap.

Community has members from the whole spectrum, we need to start giving people basic electronic education.


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## aktorsyl (15/5/17)

Feliks Karp said:


> Honestly, with hover boards and cell phones and wireless earphones combusting on a fairly regular basis, I don't see this as problem that will be solved by better battery wraps, while they probably will help to a degree, alot of these are user end and electronic failures, such as faulty PCBs. There are enough stories of the self-contained batteries in cigalikes also exploding from over charging (again electronic failure).
> 
> The story in OP is not a bad battery wrap.
> 
> Community has members from the whole spectrum, we need to start giving people basic electronic education.


Just makes one concerned what the cause was for the venting/burning in the OP story.


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## RichJB (15/5/17)

Didn't he say that it was a short?



> But that means the only thing protecting you and those around you are the little rubber or ceramic grommet (white thing) near your positive terminal and the thin wrapper around your device. The only conclusion I can come to is one of those two was compromised in my second LG HG2 battery.


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## johan (15/5/17)

Not all things end good in dim light .

Reactions: Agree 1


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