# Are we losing the war?



## kev mac (4/9/19)

Hi everyone, I've been persona non grata for a bit but things have gotten to the point where I have to reach out to my forum mates.Today the state of Michigan banned vapeing and I'm concerned other states will follow suit.This morning it was the topic on local talk radio and I listened with interest naturally.First a State Representative called in and called for the ban in Rhode Island calling ecigs "tobacco products".Then the calls came in one after the other citing how e liquid contains antifreeze, oil and all sorts of poisons.Plus how nicotine is the absolute worst substance in existence.I couldn't believe the misinformation being aired and this caused me to do something I've never even considered,to call in to a talk show.I shouldn't have bothered.When I tried to explain that P.G. and V.G. were the components of ejuice the host quickly said " and it is also in antifreeze to which I tried to reply that she was taking this out of context in as much as arsnic is in rice and lectins are in kidney beans but every time I tried to make a counterpoint she'd talk over me.When I finally asked if she was going to let me make my case or was she going to continue to talk over me she responded by saying I live under a rock and ended my call.This is what we are up against,and the public takes the misinformation spewed by the Tobacco and Pharmaceutical lobbies and runs with it.Vapeing has been vilified and most non vapers hate it.
While I agree that there's a problem with underage vapeing and the availability of cig-a-likes to minors banning all vape products isn't the answer but that may be the road we're on.
I've called my Reps here and in Washington, responded to Cassa and it's calls to action but unfortunately I think it is all in a war we were always destined to lose.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 11


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## ARYANTO (4/9/19)

Thank you for at least trying , I love your guts .

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 5 | Thanks 1


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## Adephi (4/9/19)

kev mac said:


> Hi everyone, I've been persona non grata for a bit but things have gotten to the point where I have to reach out to my forum mates.Today the state of Michigan banned vapeing and I'm concerned other states will follow suit.This morning it was the topic on local talk radio and I listened with interest naturally.First a State Representative called in and called for the ban in Rhode Island calling ecigs "tobacco products".Then the calls came in one after the other citing how e liquid contains antifreeze, oil and all sorts of poisons.Plus how nicotine is the absolute worst substance in existence.I couldn't believe the misinformation being aired and this caused me to do something I've never even considered,to call in to a talk show.I shouldn't have bothered.When I tried to explain that P.G. and V.G. were the components of ejuice the host quickly said " and it is also in antifreeze to which I tried to reply that she was taking this out of context in as much as arsnic is in rice and lectins are in kidney beans but every time I tried to make a counterpoint she'd talk over me.When I finally asked if she was going to let me make my case or was she going to continue to talk over me she responded by saying I live under a rock and ended my call.This is what we are up against,and the public takes the misinformation spewed by the Tobacco and Pharmaceutical lobbies and runs with it.Vapeing has been vilified and most non vapers hate it.
> While I agree that there's a problem with underage vapeing and the availability of cig-a-likes to minors banning all vape products isn't the answer but that may be the road we're on.
> I've called my Reps here and in Washington, responded to Cassa and it's calls to action but unfortunately I think it is all in a war we were always destined to lose.



On Tuesday evening they had a similar talk on a radio station over here. They had some "professor" that explained the recent developments in the US regards to the THC in backyard juices and the casualty involved. The amount of miss information was shocking. Somebody did phone in to try and correct things but the damage was done.

Well done to you for phoning in. Thats something we need to do more. We need to make our voices heard. Comment on negative posts. Phone in to stations and ask where are our reports. We don't have any of these negative symptoms. Where are our stories?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## Room Fogger (4/9/19)

kev mac said:


> Hi everyone, I've been persona non grata for a bit but things have gotten to the point where I have to reach out to my forum mates.Today the state of Michigan banned vapeing and I'm concerned other states will follow suit.This morning it was the topic on local talk radio and I listened with interest naturally.First a State Representative called in and called for the ban in Rhode Island calling ecigs "tobacco products".Then the calls came in one after the other citing how e liquid contains antifreeze, oil and all sorts of poisons.Plus how nicotine is the absolute worst substance in existence.I couldn't believe the misinformation being aired and this caused me to do something I've never even considered,to call in to a talk show.I shouldn't have bothered.When I tried to explain that P.G. and V.G. were the components of ejuice the host quickly said " and it is also in antifreeze to which I tried to reply that she was taking this out of context in as much as arsnic is in rice and lectins are in kidney beans but every time I tried to make a counterpoint she'd talk over me.When I finally asked if she was going to let me make my case or was she going to continue to talk over me she responded by saying I live under a rock and ended my call.This is what we are up against,and the public takes the misinformation spewed by the Tobacco and Pharmaceutical lobbies and runs with it.Vapeing has been vilified and most non vapers hate it.
> While I agree that there's a problem with underage vapeing and the availability of cig-a-likes to minors banning all vape products isn't the answer but that may be the road we're on.
> I've called my Reps here and in Washington, responded to Cassa and it's calls to action but unfortunately I think it is all in a war we were always destined to lose.


@kev mac , really sad to hear what is happening there in the country of the “free”, we are also sitting here watching with baited breath. It’s a pity that people in an media that are supposed to be neutral can twist things to suit their agenda, irrespective of the truth, and unfortunately this seems to be happening more and more. 

At this stage it’s seems they are more “worried” over vaping, which I think is driven by tobacco money, than about other deadly drugs out there because it’s a soft target. 

Let’s just remember one thing, you only lose if you give up and stop fighting. I hope that us in SA will stand together even more, we are going to need it going forward. To all the vapers out there, many happy clouds to you and our thoughts are with our international brothers and sisters and the fight for a healthier live they are allready in. We await our chance.

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## Silver (4/9/19)

Thanks for sharing that @kev mac 
Good on you for phoning in

It is very frustrating when the media latches on to the negative without presenting a balanced picture

We try hard on the forum here, through our events and interactions with the Vapour Product Association of South Africa (VPA) to spread the good word about what vaping has done for many of us.

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## kev mac (4/9/19)

Adephi said:


> On Tuesday evening they had a similar talk on a radio station over here. They had some "professor" that explained the recent developments in the US regards to the THC in backyard juices and the casualty involved. The amount of miss information was shocking. Somebody did phone in to try and correct things but the damage was done.
> 
> Well done to you for phoning in. Thats something we need to do more. We need to make our voices heard. Comment on negative posts. Phone in to stations and ask where are our reports. We don't have any of these negative symptoms. Where are our stories?


@Adephi @Room Fogger it simply amazes me the amount of outright lies perpetrated especially by the media.But I have learned just how agenda driven it has become since our last presidential election.The days of Ed Morrow and Walter Cronkite are sadly a thing of the past.Why are people so willing to believe anything they hear without looking for the truth? While I'll never stop fighting I must admit my confidence is waning.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## SparkySA (4/9/19)

kev mac said:


> Hi everyone, I've been persona non grata for a bit but things have gotten to the point where I have to reach out to my forum mates.Today the state of Michigan banned vapeing and I'm concerned other states will follow suit.This morning it was the topic on local talk radio and I listened with interest naturally.First a State Representative called in and called for the ban in Rhode Island calling ecigs "tobacco products".Then the calls came in one after the other citing how e liquid contains antifreeze, oil and all sorts of poisons.Plus how nicotine is the absolute worst substance in existence.I couldn't believe the misinformation being aired and this caused me to do something I've never even considered,to call in to a talk show.I shouldn't have bothered.When I tried to explain that P.G. and V.G. were the components of ejuice the host quickly said " and it is also in antifreeze to which I tried to reply that she was taking this out of context in as much as arsnic is in rice and lectins are in kidney beans but every time I tried to make a counterpoint she'd talk over me.When I finally asked if she was going to let me make my case or was she going to continue to talk over me she responded by saying I live under a rock and ended my call.This is what we are up against,and the public takes the misinformation spewed by the Tobacco and Pharmaceutical lobbies and runs with it.Vapeing has been vilified and most non vapers hate it.
> While I agree that there's a problem with underage vapeing and the availability of cig-a-likes to minors banning all vape products isn't the answer but that may be the road we're on.
> I've called my Reps here and in Washington, responded to Cassa and it's calls to action but unfortunately I think it is all in a war we were always destined to lose.



Hey Kev 

I think it's like the gasoline VS afgas/handigas 

Cars can run on handigas but due to the money that gov makes from gasoline it will never take, imagine how much money companies make from selling stinkys, and how much pharmaceutical companies make from treating cancer patients and so on.

As long as we keep fighting we can make weed legal for an example so never stop fighting bro... We love your bravery...... 

Thanks for standing with us

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## kev mac (4/9/19)

Silver said:


> Thanks for sharing that @kev mac
> Good on you for phoning in
> 
> It is very frustrating when the media latches on to the negative without presenting a balanced picture
> ...


Hi @Silver While some idiotic vapers such as those having Mechs blow up in their faces or posting clouds made by 1000w devices get hyped ,the good work done by the likes of ECIGSSA go unnoticed for the most part.It is maddening!

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Can relate 1


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## kev mac (4/9/19)

SparkySA said:


> Hey Kev
> 
> I think it's like the gasoline VS afgas/handigas
> 
> ...


@SparkySA it is my honor standing with the marvellous people I've come to know on forum.That said my dad used to tell me of things brought out when he was in WW2 like forever batteries only to be hidden for decades after it ended.Profit over people first and foremost.Reminds me of David Mamets' The Water Engine.

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## Grand Guru (4/9/19)

I’m convinced that we just lost a battle but the war is still long. American law is dictated nothing but by lobbies. And this ban on vaping in Michigan reveals how the giants of the tobacco industry are starting to see their market shares dropping significantly. Otherwise why would there be something like the IQOS on the market?

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## Arthster (4/9/19)

Unfortunately and I mean no disrespect to the US but America is built on two major commodities, oil and tobacco. And at present battery devices is putting both of them under huge pressure.

Those industries are putting up a fight and they are not going to just give up.

If it makes you feel any better this game has been played since I started vaping. Yes unfortunately in some areas the uninformed has won but in others the vapers have...

The show isn't over until the fat lady vapes.

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## kev mac (5/9/19)

Arthster said:


> Unfortunately and I mean no disrespect to the US but America is built on two major commodities, oil and tobacco. And at present battery devices is putting both of them under huge pressure.
> 
> Those industries are putting up a fight and they are not going to just give up.
> 
> ...


You are absolutely correct on the U.S. comment.I find it funny how many states including mine now allow for Marijuana sales but at least here in R.I. I see very little puplic outrage.I think this is due to the large tax revenue it creates.Our leaders here have done such a terrible job with our bloated budget that they keep their mouths shut not wanting to bite the hand that feeds them.Same with alcohol.How many deaths are directly attributed to it but yet no calls to ban the stuff.As @Room Fogger pointed out vapeing is a soft target and politicians love thumping their chests when little is at stake to them.

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## Grand Guru (5/9/19)

Here is some positive news
https://www.medicalbrief.co.za/arch...aping-expert-blames-thc-e-liquid-off-streets/

https://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2019/08/in-my-view-cdc-and-health-groups-bias.html?m=1

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2


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## Arthster (5/9/19)

kev mac said:


> You are absolutely correct on the U.S. comment.I find it funny how many states including mine now allow for Marijuana sales but at least here in R.I. I see very little puplic outrage.I think this is due to the large tax revenue it creates.Our leaders here have done such a terrible job with our bloated budget that they keep their mouths shut not wanting to bite the hand that feeds them.Same with alcohol.How many deaths are directly attributed to it but yet no calls to ban the stuff.As @Room Fogger pointed out vapeing is a soft target and politicians love thumping their chests when little is at stake to them.



The biggest threat to vaping as an industry is the fact that there is no organization that both regulates it and fights for it. Like you said its a soft target because there are a few people on the street that's going to be grumpy and that's the extent of it. 

As for the money thing... oh hells yes. just look at what's currently going on in SA with regards to companies letting politicians dip into the cookie jar to get business done. Not only local business but large international corporates. Bets are if there was a large listed company that made juice or devices and they where willing to play the "Here is a donation" game you would have seen a completely different attitude towards vaping. 

I actually want to change my previous statement from the "uninformed" to the "well informed but unpaid".

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## takatatak (5/9/19)

Adephi said:


> On Tuesday evening they had a similar talk on a radio station over here. They had some "professor" that explained the recent developments in the US regards to the THC in backyard juices and the casualty involved. The amount of miss information was shocking. Somebody did phone in to try and correct things but the damage was done.
> 
> Well done to you for phoning in. Thats something we need to do more. We need to make our voices heard. Comment on negative posts. Phone in to stations and ask where are our reports. We don't have any of these negative symptoms. Where are our stories?


Hey @Adephi, if you're referring to the talk on 702 just before 6pm on Tuesday then that would be me that called in to try and clarify the matter... I think I got some decent points across but sadly ran out of time on air. Hopefully people with brains heard what was said and it sparks further discussions on the matter in which the informed few can educate the ignorant... Not many things frustrate me more than fake news and disinformation

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## Hooked (5/9/19)

kev mac said:


> Hi everyone, I've been persona non grata for a bit but things have gotten to the point where I have to reach out to my forum mates.Today the state of Michigan banned vapeing and I'm concerned other states will follow suit.This morning it was the topic on local talk radio and I listened with interest naturally.First a State Representative called in and called for the ban in Rhode Island calling ecigs "tobacco products".Then the calls came in one after the other citing how e liquid contains antifreeze, oil and all sorts of poisons.Plus how nicotine is the absolute worst substance in existence.I couldn't believe the misinformation being aired and this caused me to do something I've never even considered,to call in to a talk show.I shouldn't have bothered.When I tried to explain that P.G. and V.G. were the components of ejuice the host quickly said " and it is also in antifreeze to which I tried to reply that she was taking this out of context in as much as arsnic is in rice and lectins are in kidney beans but every time I tried to make a counterpoint she'd talk over me.When I finally asked if she was going to let me make my case or was she going to continue to talk over me she responded by saying I live under a rock and ended my call.This is what we are up against,and the public takes the misinformation spewed by the Tobacco and Pharmaceutical lobbies and runs with it.Vapeing has been vilified and most non vapers hate it.
> While I agree that there's a problem with underage vapeing and the availability of cig-a-likes to minors banning all vape products isn't the answer but that may be the road we're on.
> I've called my Reps here and in Washington, responded to Cassa and it's calls to action but unfortunately I think it is all in a war we were always destined to lose.



@kev mac I think it's disgusting that you weren't even allowed to make your case. It certainly seems as if America is losing the war, with one state following the other in banning vaping. To be honest, it surprises me. I've always thought of the USA as being free and progressive!

Our only hope here in SA is that our government follows the lead of the UK and New Zealand, otherwise we're done for.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Adephi (5/9/19)

takatatak said:


> Hey @Adephi, if you're referring to the talk on 702 just before 6pm on Tuesday then that would be me that called in to try and clarify the matter... I think I got some decent points across but sadly ran out of time on air. Hopefully people with brains heard what was said and it sparks further discussions on the matter in which the informed few can educate the ignorant... Not many things frustrate me more than fake news and disinformation



That was the one. You did excellent. Would love to get more such messages out.

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## Hooked (6/9/19)

@kev mac

Have a look here to see what Alt in New Zealand has done . Just by the way, New Zealand's government is pro-vaping and they even have a website informing people about it, but advertising will no longer be allowed.

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## Hooked (6/9/19)

@kev mac 

*MICHIGAN GOVERNOR DECLARES CIGARETTES SAFE*
https://vapinglinks.blog/2019/09/05/michigan-governor-declares-cigarettes-safe/

5 Sept. 2019

"Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan has arrogantly declared _cigarettes_ are safe and will remain available for consumers of all ages in her state. “Alternative nicotine products” will be banned to protect the children ™.

It seems the words “regulate, restrict, tax and ban” will not catch on (in that order) as I had envisioned. Michigan, like San Francisco, has chosen the word “ban” for less harmful products to protect the children™ … I’m happy to report however, cigarettes are safe.

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## Arthster (6/9/19)

Hooked said:


> @kev mac
> 
> *MICHIGAN GOVERNOR DECLARES CIGARETTES SAFE*
> https://vapinglinks.blog/2019/09/05/michigan-governor-declares-cigarettes-safe/
> ...



I have no words to describe how absolutely shocked I am at that statement...

Really need to go sit down and think how I am going to express my disbelieve at that utter BS. How is it even possible for a person with that kind of mentality to actually make it into that position... 

In SA we atleast have the friend of a friend excuse but... that won't fly in the States.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Arthster (6/9/19)

So maybe a but of topic but a interesting observation with relevance.

Ok so SA isn't the same as the USA where each state is almost a seperate little country and vaping isn't banned. When I started vaping in 2014 I use to stand alone in the smoking area and smokers gave me this how dare you enter our haven you filthy pudding smelling rat look. 5 years later and I just came back from a vape break, we were 11 guys standing in conversation and out of that group *2* where smoking tobacco the rest of us where vaping.

amazing how times have changed.

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## takatatak (6/9/19)

Hooked said:


> @kev mac
> 
> *MICHIGAN GOVERNOR DECLARES CIGARETTES SAFE*
> https://vapinglinks.blog/2019/09/05/michigan-governor-declares-cigarettes-safe/
> ...


I just posted this on her FB pages:

According to your very own CDC...
https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/index.htm

It's fascinating that you would leave these cancer sticks on the shelves but choose to ban the most effective method of NRT because adults are to reckless and money-hungry to not sell tobacco or nicotine products to minors.

Meanwhile you have corporate tycoons like McDonalds, Burger King, Nestlé, Monsanto et al getting away with murder because their toxic products and practices are brushed aside like they're no reason for concern...

You must have greasy palms and evidently very little common sense... Sorry if I offended you but you use your position of authority to negatively influence society...

How much kickback are you getting from big tobacco and big pharma to demonise e-cigarettes??
If you condone the use of cigarettes then you can only be a delinquent...​
Maybe a bit hotheaded but yeah... These people frustrate me with their petty concerns when we have things like melting ice caps, burning rainforests & violent civil unrest to worry about!!

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## Arthster (6/9/19)

takatatak said:


> I just posted this on her FB pages:
> 
> According to your very own CDC...
> https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/index.htm
> ...



Brother I doff my cap. Time that we stop being nice to politicians they need to get off of that High horse and start to remember they work for us, the people... Not us for them.

Any politicians of any country need to sit down with a dictionary and lookup two words.., Civil and Servants.

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## Adephi (6/9/19)

Hooked said:


> @kev mac
> 
> *MICHIGAN GOVERNOR DECLARES CIGARETTES SAFE*
> https://vapinglinks.blog/2019/09/05/michigan-governor-declares-cigarettes-safe/
> ...



She must have the same speach writer as Trump. I really hope that is the case.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Lawrence A (6/9/19)

Common sense is not all that common it seems.

Mind boggling to say the least.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Hooked (6/9/19)

takatatak said:


> I just posted this on her FB pages:
> 
> According to your very own CDC...
> https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/index.htm
> ...



Well done @takatatak !

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## StephenE (6/9/19)

The amount of cognitive dissonance around this subject is absolutely overwhelming. I blame a lack of fundamental education in informal logic.

How many kids went to a hospital today as a result of sport injuries?
How many people died today due to sugar related illnesses?
Smokers?
Vehicle passengers?

Well.... let’s ban vaping. The mind boggles.

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## Arthster (6/9/19)

StephenE said:


> The amount of cognitive dissonance around this subject is absolutely overwhelming. I blame a lack of fundamental education in informal logic.
> 
> How many kids went to a hospital today as a result of sport injuries?
> How many people died today due to sugar related illnesses?
> ...


 
Spot on. 100% agree.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Arthster (6/9/19)

Hooked said:


> @kev mac
> 
> *MICHIGAN GOVERNOR DECLARES CIGARETTES SAFE*
> https://vapinglinks.blog/2019/09/05/michigan-governor-declares-cigarettes-safe/
> ...


Just thinking about this. In the last 10 years 3 people have died globally from vaping related issues although 2 are questionable and 1 was a dumbass with a mech mod, compared to thousands of cancer death directly linked to tobacco just in Michigan this year alone... 

Surely with a statement like "Cigarettes are safe and will remain available to consumers of all ages" and given evidence in hand, this lady should be charged with some form of murder or homicide?

Reactions: Agree 5


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## WBotha (7/9/19)

I dont think we are losing the war .

People will always be afraid of change . I for one used to be a semi anti -vaper always teased and mocked my friends for vaping until indid some research and tried it out . Few weeks later I was asking that same friends for advice on buying my first vape kit . People wil always be afraid of change even if it is for the better .
Vaping is the future of smoking its cleaner , healthier and taate and smell better than the cancer stickies . People are finding It hard to believe that there is a better alternative to straight tobacco , humans have been using tabbaco for centuries and we are trying to change that forever .
"Something that is liberal today is conservative tomorrow"
Just my thought on the matter

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## kev mac (11/9/19)

Hooked said:


> @kev mac
> 
> *MICHIGAN GOVERNOR DECLARES CIGARETTES SAFE*
> https://vapinglinks.blog/2019/09/05/michigan-governor-declares-cigarettes-safe/
> ...


And this is another example of the State Sanctioned insanity.How do we fight such pretzel logic? While in the U.K. vape products can now be sold in hospitals I've read.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## kev mac (11/9/19)

Hooked said:


> @kev mac I think it's disgusting that you weren't even allowed to make your case. It certainly seems as if America is losing the war, with one state following the other in banning vaping. To be honest, it surprises me. I've always thought of the USA as being free and progressive!
> 
> Our only hope here in SA is that our government follows the lead of the UK and New Zealand, otherwise we're done for.


In the U.S. we're free as long as the people in the power seats aren't losing money.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Hooked (11/9/19)

Arthster said:


> So maybe a but of topic but a interesting observation with relevance.
> 
> Ok so SA isn't the same as the USA where each state is almost a seperate little country and vaping isn't banned. When I started vaping in 2014 I use to stand alone in the smoking area and smokers gave me this how dare you enter our haven you filthy pudding smelling rat look. 5 years later and I just came back from a vape break, we were 11 guys standing in conversation and out of that group *2* where smoking tobacco the rest of us where vaping.
> 
> amazing how times have changed.



@Arthster You need to change your forum name to "filthy pudding smelling rat"

Reactions: Like 1 | Can relate 1


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## kev mac (11/9/19)

takatatak said:


> I just posted this on her FB pages:
> 
> According to your very own CDC...
> https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/index.htm
> ...


I 100% agree !

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hooked (11/9/19)

kev mac said:


> In the U.S. we're free as long as the people in the power seats aren't losing money.



@kev mac Actually, none of us is free. Freedom is an illusion and the best that we can do is to attempt to maintain that illusion.


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## kev mac (11/9/19)

Hooked said:


> @kev mac Actually, none of us is free. Freedom is an illusion and the best that we can do is to attempt to maintain that illusion.


Sadly there's much truth in what you say.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Room Fogger (11/9/19)

kev mac said:


> And this is another example of the State Sanctioned insanity.How do we fight such pretzel logic? While in the U.K. vape products can now be sold in hospitals I've read.


Maybe someone should send her a carton of smokes and a lighter and tell her to put her money where her mouth is.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## StephenE (12/9/19)

It is getting closer to home.

In an article this morning on Netwerk 24 (in Afrikaans and behind a pay-wall), a certain Dr. Catherine Egbe from the South African Medical Research Council, had a lot of negative things to say about e-cigs. The shocking thing is that she is quoted, directly, to the effect that a study that set-out to understand the recent deaths, has found that it is the VG and PG that causes your lungs to stop working!!

What??? I would like to see her produce the evidence for that!

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## Chukin'Vape (12/9/19)

End game is near guys.... I still want to know how we went from, black market THC cartridges are bad - TO - "flavors are bad". All my American friends are reaching out to me apologizing, feeling guilty for what their government is doing. Super sad day.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Adephi (22/9/19)

Interesting take from a non-vaper

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## SparkySA (22/9/19)

Okey let's think about this for a second,, 

Cigarettes = cancer causing chemicals, a few stuff that was used in wars to poison people, pesticides, it causes secondhand health risks and fall asleep with it can burn down a house. Kills alot of people every year

E liquid = vg/ pg ( been partying with smoke machines for eons) flavors that we used in cooking mostly, has a clear non stinky vapour and has been tested to be 95% safer than cigarettes. 

Okey now let's break this down quickly even further. 

You use fire to burn a cigarette (global warming and what not) 

Vape device heat liquid below ignition point

Now WTF GOVERNMENT..... WTF MURICA..... WTF INDIA

Reactions: Agree 3


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## SparkySA (22/9/19)

I'm going to stock pile DIY stuff anyone wanna group buy a kiloliter of pg/vg mix and buy some basic must have concentrates by the litres

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Hooked (22/9/19)

StephenE said:


> It is getting closer to home.
> 
> In an article this morning on Netwerk 24 (in Afrikaans and behind a pay-wall), a certain Dr. Catherine Egbe from the South African Medical Research Council, had a lot of negative things to say about e-cigs. The shocking thing is that she is quoted, directly, to the effect that a study that set-out to understand the recent deaths, has found that it is the VG and PG that causes your lungs to stop working!!
> 
> What??? I would like to see her produce the evidence for that!



Vapers in SA should stage a sit-in, in front of her office. Since VG and PG cause your lungs to stop working, according to her, we'll all be the Walking Dead.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Room Fogger (22/9/19)

Hooked said:


> Vapers in SA should stage a sit-in, in front of her office. Since VG and PG cause your lungs to stop working, according to her, we'll all be the Walking Dead.


Adresss, date and time please. @zadiac , what amount of people constitute an illegal gathering?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## zadiac (23/9/19)

Room Fogger said:


> Adresss, date and time please. @zadiac , what amount of people constitute an illegal gathering?



It used to be 5, but it's changed since 1994. Not sure what the new criteria is now.....lol. We have a specialized unit that deals with gatherings and unrest.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Room Fogger (23/9/19)

zadiac said:


> It used to be 5, but it's changed since 1994. Not sure what the new criteria is now.....lol. We have a specialized unit that deals with gatherings and unrest.


So 200 groups of 4 and we are in the clear

Reactions: Funny 4


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## zadiac (23/9/19)

Room Fogger said:


> So 200 groups of 4 and we are in the clear



Sounds legit

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## Rickesh Behari (23/9/19)

Hi Guys, im a new member and a relatively new vaper.
i used to smoke until i saw the light and Now i am a proud vaper.

More often than not i get a smoker come up to me and ask if i dont read the news, or if im aware that "vaping kills". Really? these are people that are inhaling thousands more dangerous chemicals than i am and they now feel they have the right to lecture vapers on the "dangers of vaping". the news is as slanted as it always has been and the propaganda being spread about vaping is infuriating.

i used to stay quiet and smile but im at a point now where i tell these morons where to get off.

Thank you to the vape advocates every where for fighting the good fight. i have signed the petition against Trump's flavor ban with the greatest of pleasure and look forward to doing more to help the cause.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2


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## Grand Guru (24/9/19)

Take a moment to watch this. It’s all about money!

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Room Fogger (24/9/19)

Grand Guru said:


> Take a moment to watch this. It’s all about money!



Very informative @Grand Guru . Kind of brings to mind the fairytale of the Emperors new clothes, a lot of money for nothing, and scare tactics to keep the masses in mind. Now just to find the right “kid” to scream he’s wearing no clothes and show the truth.

The US is a very strange place, you can sue someone for slipping on coldrink you just threw in your boyfriends face, and actually win. Wonder what would happen if a vaper sues them for depravation of his flavoured e-liquid based on his interaction with natures finest and the mental anguish it is causing, may get some tree huggers on board as well to testify regarding the awful pain the trees have to go through to make the cigarette paper as well.

Not sure how to get the cotton growers into the mix yet, but my “warped” vaping mind will be working on that as well.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## kev mac (4/10/19)

It just continues to get crazier, tonight's local news included a report on the rising count of lung afflictions and deaths "caused by vapeing".While totally ignoring the fact that the majority if not all are related to THC cartridges many of the bootleg variety.Can we say irresponsible journalism?And meanwhile our clown of a Govenoress rubs her hands in anticipation of enacting a ban to save the people from the "vapeing malady",but hey it's easier than attacking the real problems like our poor education system or crumbling infrastructure, plus it makes for great headlines. To say that we in the States have a "fake news" problem is an understatement.To illustrate the scope of this, last night I tried to order one of my favorite liquids from a site that I've been using for 3 or so yrs.and for some reason the sale wouldn't go through.Thinking perhaps my card was the problem I delved into it only to find out that the card was fine,so I sent a message to them.This morning I received an email from them apologizing and stating that because of the vapeing scare their business was off by 50% in the last month or so and coupled with a pending flavor ban they are forced to close the doors.What a shame,a small business a cornerstone of the economy unnecessarily forced to give in to the hysterical retoric pushed by the media.How many times will this scenario be repeated?It's bad over here for vapers and the industry.And I fear it will get worse still.

Reactions: Informative 4


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## kev mac (4/10/19)

Room Fogger said:


> Very informative @Grand Guru . Kind of brings to mind the fairytale of the Emperors new clothes, a lot of money for nothing, and scare tactics to keep the masses in mind. Now just to find the right “kid” to scream he’s wearing no clothes and show the truth.
> 
> The US is a very strange place, you can sue someone for slipping on coldrink you just threw in your boyfriends face, and actually win. Wonder what would happen if a vaper sues them for depravation of his flavoured e-liquid based on his interaction with natures finest and the mental anguish it is causing, may get some tree huggers on board as well to testify regarding the awful pain the trees have to go through to make the cigarette paper as well.
> 
> Not sure how to get the cotton growers into the mix yet, but my “warped” vaping mind will be working on that as well.


Don't tell me the U.S.of A. is strange.It's plain batf**k nuts and everyday another example of P.C. gone mad comes to light.Today I heard that the SJWs have yet scored another victory by further saving the world and officially having the A-OK hand gesture listed as a "racist gesture". Wouldn't want Scuba Divers offending a Flounder would we. Is there no end to the madness?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Hooked (4/10/19)

kev mac said:


> It just continues to get crazier, tonight's local news included a report on the rising count of lung afflictions and deaths "caused by vapeing".While totally ignoring the fact that the majority if not all are related to THC cartridges many of the bootleg variety.Can we say irresponsible journalism?And meanwhile our clown of a Govenoress rubs her hands in anticipation of enacting a ban to save the people from the "vapeing malady",but hey it's easier than attacking the real problems like our poor education system or crumbling infrastructure, plus it makes for great headlines. To say that we in the States have a "fake news" problem is an understatement.To illustrate the scope of this, last night I tried to order one of my favorite liquids from a site that I've been using for 3 or so yrs.and for some reason the sale wouldn't go through.Thinking perhaps my card was the problem I delved into it only to find out that the card was fine,so I sent a message to them.This morning I received an email from them apologizing and stating that because of the vapeing scare their business was off by 50% in the last month or so and coupled with a pending flavor ban they are forced to close the doors.What a shame,a small business a cornerstone of the economy unnecessarily forced to give in to the hysterical retoric pushed by the media.How many times will this scenario be repeated?It's bad over here for vapers and the industry.And I fear it will get worse still.



That is sooo sad; I truly feel for them. I've seen pics & videos of shops with empty shelves now, as well as a distributing warehouse with empty shelves.

Reactions: Can relate 1 | Informative 1


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## kev mac (6/10/19)

Any U.K. vapers in the house?l just watched a segment from a recording of a session of the Michigan State Senate taking testimony on the vapeing ban proposed by the House.Some very interesting testimony by some very astute vapers.Unfortuneatly the House was dealing with a marked deck (pardon the pun) in part by hearing rebuttal testimony from some Quack named Dr.Rizzo who obviously had an agenda.When one pro vapeing advocate (a very intelligent speaking nurse ex smoker) cited the U.K.s College of Physicians study that clearly found on the pro vapeing side,he rebutted by stating that the study was flawed and not true.His reasoning was that the study took place only for 2 days and was largely by vapeing industry insiders.(to be fair I'm accurately paraphrasing) Can any of our esteemed U.K. members elucidate on this? I'd love to hear an opinion from someone that actually lives there .Things continue to get worse here in the States but I'm encouraged by the well spoken intelligent proponents of vaping that are fighting for our rights and our health.Even if the biased media tries hard to hide them from the public.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Hooked (6/10/19)

kev mac said:


> Any U.K. vapers in the house?l just watched a segment from a recording of a session of the Michigan State Senate taking testimony on the vapeing ban proposed by the House.Some very interesting testimony by some very astute vapers.Unfortuneatly the House was dealing with a marked deck (pardon the pun) in part by hearing rebuttal testimony from some Quack named Dr.Rizzo who obviously had an agenda.When one pro vapeing advocate (a very intelligent speaking nurse ex smoker) cited the U.K.s College of Physicians study that clearly found on the pro vapeing side,he rebutted by stating that the study was flawed and not true.His reasoning was that the study took place only for 2 days and was largely by vapeing industry insiders.(to be fair I'm accurately paraphrasing) Can any of our esteemed U.K. members elucidate on this? I'd love to hear an opinion from someone that actually lives there .Things continue to get worse here in the States but I'm encouraged by the well spoken intelligent proponents of vaping that are fighting for our rights and our health.Even if the biased media tries hard to hide them from the public.



@kev mac Just for the record I'm from SA. But what I'd like to say is that I agree with Dr Risso in that a study funded or conducted by the vape industry *is* potentially flawed, because they have a vested interest. Likewise any study by the tobacco industry.

I don't know how this problem could be resolved, because who else is going to fund the research?


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## RichJB (6/10/19)

The allegations are, unfortunately, partly true. The RCP panel wasn't "mostly industry insiders" but it was revealed that at least one of the panel was on the payroll of a vaping company at the time. It doesn't mean that his input was tainted or that his views are wrong but it's not a good look. So it was a valid concern by the medical fraternity.

The question around the "95% safer" conclusion requires unpacking. The RCP is not a research body, it is an association. There is a belief that the RCP conducted exhaustive research over many years and the "95% safer" conclusion is based on the empirical results of that research. It isn't. They got a bunch of RCP members together, who were familiar with various research papers in vaping, and asked them to assess vaping's risks based on what they'd read in the literature.

The resulting "95% safer" was an estimation, not a research result. In science, estimations are not proof. So vaping cannot say "the RCP has proven that vaping is 95% safer". They can only say "the RCP has made an educated guess that vaping is 95% safer".

Nonetheless, vaping can make certain statements. What irks me about the FDA's "we can't say vaping is safer, we'll only know in fifty years" stance is that it replaces science with religion and tries to position us as helplessly ignorant. When cavemen came upon a new foodstuff, they lacked the science to estimate in advance whether it was edible or poisonous. So the only way was to eat it and then wait and see if they got sick or not. Fortunately we have evolved since then. We now have machinery that can break any foodstuff down into its component parts. Once we know what those component parts are, we have a very good idea whether the foodstuff is edible or poisonous. We no longer have to wait and see.

So no, we don't have to wait fifty years to see if vaping makes us sick before we make _any_ statement about it. Vapour is not some mysterious inexplicable substance and the Devil might be lurking inside. We know what vapour is. We have the machinery to break it down into its constituent parts and analyse it. We have the knowledge of how our bodies react to those constituent chemicals.

If we run tests on benzene in smoke and vapour, and there is 100x as much benzene in smoke, we have scientific proof. We know benzene is harmful for us so we can say with absolute scientific certainty that, in terms of the health risk posed by benzene, vaping is less harmful than smoking. We _know_ this, we don't have to wait fifty years to find out if benzene is in vapour.

Of course, vaping being safer in terms of benzene (or any other chemical) isn't proof that vaping is safe or even safer overall. There exists the possibility, slight as it may be, that there is some serious risk in vaping which we have not yet discovered and therefore cannot test for or factor in. And yes, in that sense, we do need to wait fifty years to get the final, definitive answer.

But humanity doesn't wait for final, definitive answers. We don't have final, definitive answers on global warming. We will need to wait fifty or a hundred years to know with absolute certainty how warming will manifest, whether it will be the same as, worse than, or not as bad as we think it will be. But having to wait for the definitive answer doesn't mean that we can't make any statements about warming yet, and we have to wait and see whether it will be bad or not. That would just be stupid. We take the best information that science can give us, we construct models based on it, and we act according to the projections of those models. That is what the UN climate change panel does.

That is also what the RCP did. They took the _known_ risks of smoking and the best scientific information we have available at present, they constructed a model based on that, and they advised action based on the projection of that model. That the RCP doesn't have definitive answers yet, and cannot eliminate or account for the potential _unknown_ risks of vaping, does not invalidate their work.

No, we don't have definitive answers on vaping yet. But we don't have definitive answers on climate change yet. Does the FDA believe that we shouldn't be making ANY claims about climate change or taking ANY action because "we don't know yet, we have to wait and see". That would just be insane.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 4 | Winner 3


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## Silver (6/10/19)

Thanks @RichJB 
That was an excellent read

Reactions: Agree 2 | Thanks 1


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## kev mac (7/10/19)

RichJB said:


> The allegations are, unfortunately, partly true. The RCP panel wasn't "mostly industry insiders" but it was revealed that at least one of the panel was on the payroll of a vaping company at the time. It doesn't mean that his input was tainted or that his views are wrong but it's not a good look. So it was a valid concern by the medical fraternity.
> 
> The question around the "95% safer" conclusion requires unpacking. The RCP is not a research body, it is an association. There is a belief that the RCP conducted exhaustive research over many years and the "95% safer" conclusion is based on the empirical results of that research. It isn't. They got a bunch of RCP members together, who were familiar with various research papers in vaping, and asked them to assess vaping's risks based on what they'd read in the literature.
> 
> ...


Excellent synopsis.One thing we do know for certain is that cigarettes kill an unbelievable amount of people yet it's vapeing getting the bans. That seems so twisted.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## Adephi (15/10/19)

Some good news..

https://www.wxyz.com/news/judge-blocks-michigans-ban-on-flavored-e-cigarettes

"Court of Claims Judge Cynthia Stephens issued a preliminary injunction Tuesday. She says Gov. Gretchen Whitmer's administration's delay in implementing the ban undercut its position that emergency rules were needed."

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 2


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## CashKat88 (16/10/19)

So the ban actually got lifted yesterday ...small victory for us


LANSING, Mich. (AP) — A Michigan judge on Tuesday blocked the state’s weeks-old ban on flavored e-cigarettes, citing evidence that adults could return to smoking more harmful than tobacco products.

Court of Claims Judge Cynthia Stephens also said Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s administration’s delay in implementing the prohibition undercut its position that emergency rules were justified.

The lawsuit was filed by vaping businesses that said the ban, which took effect Oct. 2, will force them to close. The judge issued a preliminary injunction to stop the state from enforcing the rules.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Room Fogger (16/10/19)

http://broadcastmedia7.novusgroup.c...l_Africa_7582a8323c3ed22c837c7b774fe81a73.mp4

Something I just saw, maybe not perfect reporting but at least more factual than other ones

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Hooked (16/10/19)

CashKat88 said:


> So the ban actually got lifted yesterday ...small victory for us
> 
> 
> LANSING, Mich. (AP) — A Michigan judge on Tuesday blocked the state’s weeks-old ban on flavored e-cigarettes, citing evidence that adults could return to smoking more harmful than tobacco products.
> ...



@CashKat88 It's a big victory because it could set a precedent.

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## Hooked (16/10/19)

https://upnorthlive.com/news/local/...uling-following-temporary-block-on-vaping-ban

"Governor Gretchen Whitmer announced she would seek a Supreme Court ruling after a judge on the Court of Claims issued a preliminary injunction blocking the state from enforcing its emergency vaping rules, which banned the sale of flavored vaping nicotine products among other measures in an effort to protect public health."

Hope she loses the case! @CashKat88

Reactions: Agree 1


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## CashKat88 (16/10/19)

Hooked said:


> @CashKat88 It's a big victory because it could set a precedent.


You right it is a big win for us, hope she loses that case @Hooked they don't have the right to mess with our health 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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## Grand Guru (16/10/19)

Supreme Court is predominantly conservative at the moment but let’s hope.

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## Adephi (16/10/19)

Grand Guru said:


> Supreme Court is predominantly conservative at the moment but let’s hope.



Its not the concervatives who is banning vaping. Its the liberals.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## RichJB (16/10/19)

Correct, @Adephi. And not just in the US either. In Britain, a Conservative in the House of Lords tried to get the TPD struck down, on the basis that the UK was leaving the EU and is therefore no longer subject to EU regs. The Labour Lords didn't even let it get to a vote. They told the Conservative Lord proposing the motion that they would unanimously vote against it, so he didn't even bother to proceed.

This, too, is why the FDA has imposed such ridiculous regs on the vaping industry. That all happened under Obama. Although, that said, the hope expressed by the vaping industry that Trump would support them was rank optimism. Trump is a billionaire oligarch, the only things he admires are wealth, power and bullying. The tobacco and pharma sectors have all three in spades, vaping has none of these qualities. It was a no-brainer who Trump was going to side with.

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## CashKat88 (18/10/19)

Another win!






Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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## Hooked (24/10/19)

Some battles are being won, if not the war. Here's a summary (mine) of wins so far:

https://www.planetofthevapes.co.uk/news/vaping-news/2019-10-22_blocking-the-bans.html
22 Oct. 2019

*OREGON *has been granted a temporary stay, until respondents have time to reply. 
"The court recognised that businesses would be forced to close “within weeks” if the ban had been allowed to go ahead before other court cases reached a decision."

*NEW YORK* ban blocked

*MASSACHUSETTS* ban blocked
"Charlie Baker’s administration has been ordered to drop the ban or implement it using established procedures because, “Governor Charlie Baker overstepped constitutional bounds”.

The judge decreed: “Input from affected industries and members of the public is a potent safeguard against executive abuse of discretion. If the executive branch avoids... input and safeguards, it unwittingly creates an echo chamber in which government officials’ own viewpoints reinforce each other, potentially causing unnecessary harm and ill-informed decisions.”

*MONTANA* ban blocked
The lawsuit was brought "by three Montana vape shops and an industry group"

*MICHIGAN* ban blocked
A Michigan judge said, “there was likely no basis for the governor to use her emergency powers.”
"The court noted that “906 Vapor” wouldn’t be able to reopen at the end of the emergency order and that “A Clean Cigarette” had been forced to close a store – and was holding more than $2 million of unsellable products. It agreed with the claim that the industry was facing “irreparable harm” as a result of Whitmer’s [the Governor's] whim."

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 3


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