# So the Fake Juice Situation...



## Naubrey

Hi all I am new to the forums and new to vaping (1 month)

After visiting Vapeking in Potch and getting myself a Vaporesso SWAG (Ugh that name) accompanied with 3 replacement coils and 2 Vapeking juices I started my journey to quitting the analogs.

After finishing my Vapeking juices which were a bit on the sweet and milky side for me I set out to get some new juice. 

Without having to explain why, here in Kathu in the Northern Cape we have no vape shops around but somebody at work told me about a nice shop that stocked some affordable juice.

I went there and saw it, Nasty Juice, awesome packaging, great flavors and even better names for the flavors to boot.

So I went and got one that smelled the best for me and spent my R80 (Dead give away I realized later) on the bottle of Devils Teeth flavor.

Being a nerd, I googled Nasty Juice as soon as I got home to check them out and after being not able to verify the juice I sent an email and they confirmed that it was fake and possibly dangerous. 

Now this was after checking online for all signs that will verify it was fake and honestly, this one looked and had all the things that would make it authentic, even the scratch top and sticker inside!

After contemplating if this would kill me and the need for nicotine kicked in I loaded my tank expecting a seizure or something on my first drag....

To my surprise this was the best tasting juice that I have experienced so far......

It had all the characteristics that they described that flavor would have on their site so I was happy.

Needless to say I finished that bottle and is really considering on buying more....

So my question is, are all these fake juices really THAT bad? I know there would be better fakes than other but my experience with the fake Nasty Juice was actually a pleasant one.

Reactions: Can relate 1 | Informative 2


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## RichJB

I suppose, as with clone hardware, that there are better ones and worse ones. I don't think one can say that all are bad or all decent. Tastes also vary with juice, some like juices which others find unpalatable. 

The problem with fakes is that they don't have a chain of custody which raises two problems. The first is that you don't know what's in the juice. That it tastes good doesn't mean it doesn't contain harmful stuff. The second problem is that if the vendor isn't concerned at selling fakes, they're not going to be concerned about replacing fakes from one source with fakes from another. So you could visit the same store in a few months, buy the same juice and find out that it's now totally disgusting because it's a different fake supplier. But because both are faking the same original brand, there is no way to tell them apart.

This is less of a problem with clone hardware as some clone manufacturers, like SXK, are happy to put their name on the clone and they have built a reputation for decent quality. But with juices, all bets are off. So you pays your money and you takes your chances, I guess.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3 | Informative 2


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## Naubrey

I totally agree with that, and I think the problem is for me now, even though it tastes great, I dont know what the long term damage might be, its kind of a gamble.

Only thing for me is now, its easy to acquire as I said, I have no issue to buy real juice from reputable shops but everyone will charge me with a courier cost.

Do you know of any shops where couriers will charge at least less than 100 bucks?

I am more than willing to support the local juice guys and they are affordable but the whole courier thing for two 30ml or whatever bottles makes me cringe a bit, call me greedy but it feels like a moerse schlep and waste of money.

Reactions: Like 1 | Can relate 2


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## RichJB

Are juice vendors that expensive to courier? I don't know as I don't buy juice. I DIY and the DIY vendors are very reasonable. Some offer free delivery as long as you order R450-500 of stuff, others charge anywhere from R45 to R65 for courier. So the courier fees aren't an issue for me at all.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## craigb

RichJB said:


> Are juice vendors that expensive to courier? I don't know as I don't buy juice. I DIY and the DIY vendors are very reasonable. Some offer free delivery as long as you order R450-500 of stuff, others charge anywhere from R45 to R65 for courier. So the courier fees aren't an issue for me at all.


I think @Naubrey's main problem is he stays well past the middle of nowhere. So couriers will charge an arm and a leg just to consider a delivery...

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## RichJB

Ah, right. I forgot that the free delivery option usually only applies to major centres.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Naubrey

Cor


craigb said:


> I think @Naubrey's main problem is he stays well past the middle of nowhere. So couriers will charge an arm and a leg just to consider a delivery...


Correct! 

I have been considering going the DIY route, is it really hard or will I be able to figure it out with enough youtube videos and google guides?


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## RainstormZA

craigb said:


> I think @Naubrey's main problem is he stays well past the middle of nowhere. So couriers will charge an arm and a leg just to consider a delivery...



Same here.

Your best bet is to start diy juice - I live in the middle of nowhere. Worth paying couriers for a bunch of stuff to mix. I have 4 x 500ml bottles of diy juice to last me at least 4 months. At least I can change juices when it suits my mood and by far, much cheaper. 

At least you know what goes in your juices versus unknown fakes.

So far, best juice I've conjured up is my peppermint crisp clone. Then there's my work in progress on the lemon cream filled cronut clone. I just need the right sweet lemon concentrate to complete it as a bottle of the original goes for nearly R400 a 60ml bottle.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## regularvapeguy

Naubrey said:


> Cor
> 
> Correct!
> 
> I have been considering going the DIY route, is it really hard or will I be able to figure it out with enough youtube videos and google guides?



Google and Youtube will be your friend here. Its easy to find recipes and tips and tricks.

Also, for mixing instructions you can try apps such as e-juice lab or e-liquid calculator. 

The mixing is easy, the hard part is finding your winning recipe.


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## craigb

Naubrey said:


> Cor
> 
> Correct!
> 
> I have been considering going the DIY route, is it really hard or will I be able to figure it out with enough youtube videos and google guides?


It's simultaneously the easiest thing in the world as well as the most difficult. Get your self a scale, a bunch of concentrate, bases and if you can read numbers, you can DIY.

Tasty, vapeable DIY... follow a recipe.

Tasty, vapeable DIY of your own invention.... I'm not in a position to comment on that as I haven't gotten it right yet.

But find yourself a few recipes on e-liquid-recipes.com or alltheflavors.com , order what is needed. When your order arrives, pop in to the forum, ask as many questions as you need to settle your mind before mixing and then, before you know it, you will be clouding the place up with yumminess-in-a-bottle(tm)(c) mixed by your own two hands.

If I may make 1 suggestion that I feel is really important, try a couple different flavour profiles to see what you like or tend towards. You may try something and while not enjoying that specific juice, you might enjoy the profile (bakery, desserts, fruits, etc) which will help you filter down to the recipes you will want to try.

Start up costs are a little steep, but DIYing pays itself off within a month or 2.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Winner 2


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## Gizmo

I can tell with you 1000% certainty that they will use sub-standard ingredients from nicotine to concentrates. The majority of fake juices are made in China, which I saw first hand. If you feel that inhaling unknown ingredients is worth it to you. Then go ahead. I personally would never touch such stuff.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## vicTor

Naubrey said:


> Cor
> 
> Correct!
> 
> I have been considering going the DIY route, is it really hard or will I be able to figure it out with enough youtube videos and google guides?



it's really easy, and you save a packet !

Reactions: Agree 2


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## RichJB

Naubrey said:


> I have been considering going the DIY route, is it really hard or will I be able to figure it out with enough youtube videos and google guides?



It's pretty easy to do. The tough part is that initially you will be overwhelmed by the sheer range of flavours and recipes on offer. But if you only want to courier supplies occasionally, DIY ingredients go a long way. If you drop a grand on your first DIY order (excl delivery), you would be able to get:
Scale R240
200ml 36mg PG nic: R190
2l VG: R90
500ml PG: R40
8x 50ml HDPE dropper bottles: R40
Witch's hat nozzles x2 for PG and VG bottles: R8
14 flavours @ +/-R28 each: R392
Total: R1000 on the dot

The trick will be finding 4 or 5 recipes you like which use the 14 flavours in total among them. That would be enough ingredients for you to make around 70 x 30ml bottles of 3mg juice before you had to re-order and courier again.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 4 | Informative 1


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## Naubrey

Awesome thanks all! I think I have an idea of what taste spectrum I prefer for now, I like the cooler more refreshing tastes, not overwhelming sweet and not too strong, just a hint of flavor on the exhale and definitely a fresh kick on the inhale, thus any fruity minty thing will work for me I think.

Can you recommend any shops that are reputable for DIY stuff? Even better would be if they offer a startup kit for DIY.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rude Rudi

RainstormZA said:


> Same here.
> So far, best juice I've conjured up is my peppermint crisp clone.



Mind to share what you are doing here - perhaps we can help to shape it for you a bit? Is there a thread...?

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB

I would avoid starter kits, they all give you syringes and beakers which are unnecessary. Get a scale and mix by weight from the get-go. It is easier, more accurate and less messy, no washing up of implements afterwards. I have tried all of the forum DIY vendors (Blck, The Flavour Mill, Valley Vapour, Vape Hyper, and others) and can recommend them all.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Naubrey

RichJB said:


> I would avoid starter kits, they all give you syringes and beakers which are unnecessary. Get a scale and mix by weight from the get-go. It is easier, more accurate and less messy, no washing up of implements afterwards. I have tried all of the forum DIY vendors (Blck, The Flavour Mill, Valley Vapour, Vape Hyper, and others) and can recommend them all.



Thanks Rich will do that!

One last thing guys, i'm using a 70/30 mix at the moment and would like to continue on this ratio, my question is, do I buy my Nicotine in VG or PG?
Also I see they got premixed 70/30 base liquids, will my nicotine depending on VG or PG screw with the premix ratio?

Thanks in advance!

Reactions: Like 1


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## aktorsyl

Naubrey said:


> Thanks Rich will do that!
> 
> One last thing guys, i'm using a 70/30 mix at the moment and would like to continue on this ratio, my question is, do I buy my Nicotine in VG or PG?
> Also I see they got premixed 70/30 base liquids, will my nicotine depending on VG or PG screw with the premix ratio?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


PG nicotine is easier to work with and will be fine with all modern recipes. In the old days when flavour concentrations were higher, it got tricky to maintain the ratio. But you'll have no problem with this at all.

PS: Not to mention that VG nicotine is pure hellspawn. I'll never use that shit again.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Funny 1 | Thanks 1 | Informative 1


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## RainstormZA

Rude Rudi said:


> Mind to share what you are doing here - perhaps we can help to shape it for you a bit? Is there a thread...?



Yes it's in one of the mint threads - @Andre has never updated the list so it's not included in the listing. My only issue is that according to @Faiyaz Cheulkar and @Humbolt's critique (I send them samples with a PIF), is that there is not enough chocolate in it. I have to agree with them - I had to increase from 2ml to 5ml of Cap Double Chocolate so hopefully that it is better as I still need to finish my 2nd batch and make another one to see if it's any better.

@Rude Rudi I'll just post a copy here anyway. The mint and cream are perfect as it is... It's just the chocolate that isn't coming out as nicely as the mint is.




Ignore the target ratio - I obviously forgot to correct it.

Reactions: Like 3


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## RainstormZA

aktorsyl said:


> PG nicotine is easier to work with and will be fine with all modern recipes. In the old days when flavour concentrations were higher, it got tricky to maintain the ratio. But you'll have no problem with this at all.
> 
> PS: Not to mention that VG nicotine is pure hellspawn. I'll never use that shit again.



What he said. PG is better - I have nic in VG and it's such a mission. PG is much easier and also the medium is much thinner than VG. Good Gods, I will never buy nic in VG again.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Thanks 1


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## Andre

RainstormZA said:


> Yes it's in one of the mint threads - @Andre has never updated the list so it's not included in the listing.


Actually, it is listed in the Index @RainstormZA. Last updated on 30 April 2018.

Reactions: Like 1


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## CharlieSierra

I just feel like sharing my 2 cents so here it goes
The one main reason I tell my vaping friends to stay off of clones is the risk of contracting diseases or vaping harmfull chemicals.

I think @KZOR visited a juice manufacturer (video on YouTube) and he showed us what they call a "clean room".
These clean rooms have to have certain requirements to keep the juices as clean as possible. And from what I've heard these clean rooms are expensive.

These clone juices which sell for 80 bucks has no credibility as to where it is made. For all you know it's a startup clone juice manufacturer that mixes his stuff in his bathroom/bathtub. And even if they do have a lab they don't adhere to the same standards as juice companies cause they don't have to. I mean they have to cut costs somewhere.

I know juice can get expensive so maybe try your own DIY juice , there's alot of recipies on the ol' interweb.

And with R500 worth of DIY supplies you can be set for a long while.
It might not taste exactly like store bought juice but hey it's the nic fix that matters

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## RainstormZA

Andre said:


> Actually, it is listed in the Index @RainstormZA. Last updated on 30 April 2018.



Thank you so much!!! I didn't check today as I have too much going on with my mom being away til 21 June. A farm isn't for sissies. Lol.


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## aktorsyl

CharlieSierra said:


> I just feel like sharing my 2 cents so here it goes
> The one main reason I tell my vaping friends to stay off of clones is the risk of contracting diseases or vaping harmfull chemicals.
> 
> I think @KZOR visited a juice manufacturer (video on YouTube) and he showed us what they call a "clean room".
> These clean rooms have to have certain requirements to keep the juices as clean as possible. And from what I've heard these clean rooms are expensive.
> 
> These clone juices which sell for 80 bucks has no credibility as to where it is made. For all you know it's a startup clone juice manufacturer that mixes his stuff in his bathroom/bathtub. And even if they do have a lab they don't adhere to the same standards as juice companies cause they don't have to. I mean they have to cut costs somewhere.
> 
> I know juice can get expensive so maybe try your own DIY juice , there's alot of recipies on the ol' interweb.
> 
> And with R500 worth of DIY supplies you can be set for a long while.
> It might not taste exactly like store bought juice but hey it's the nic fix that matters


Very true. But most juice manufacturers don't use clean rooms anymore, they use labs - usually certified labs. The fakes (don't call them clones, clones are what we call the legitimate DIY recreations of commercial juices) are obviously not made in a lab. Most likely in the back of a car repair shop for all we know. Stay away from that shit.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Thanks 1


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## Gandalf Vapes

aktorsyl said:


> PS: Not to mention that VG nicotine is pure hellspawn. I'll never use that shit again.



I agree 100% with that statement. When I bought my first DIY ingredients, I made the mistake of buying the VG based nicotine. It is hell to mix with. I don't think I have done a mix where I haven't gone over with the nicotine. Fortunately for me that few mg extra doesn't kill my mixes. I usually mix in 250ml batches, so the extra few mg doesn't have that big an effect on the mix.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Dietz

RainstormZA said:


> What he said. PG is better - I have nic in VG and it's such a mission. PG is much easier and also the medium is much thinner than VG. Good Gods, I will never buy nic in VG again.


VG Nic Suuuucks!! Im stil sitting with more than half a bottle of VG Nic...

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Gandalf Vapes

[QUOTE="CharlieSierra, post: 679171, member: 10464"


I think @KZOR visited a juice manufacturer (video on YouTube) and he showed us what they call a "clean room".
These clean rooms have to have certain requirements to keep the juices as clean as possible. And from what I've heard these clean rooms are expensive.
[/QUOTE]

@CharlieSierra What is KAZOR's Youtube channel called? I would very much like to see that video.


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## craigb

Gandalf Vapes said:


> [QUOTE="CharlieSierra, post: 679171, member: 10464"
> 
> 
> I think @KZOR visited a juice manufacturer (video on YouTube) and he showed us what they call a "clean room".
> These clean rooms have to have certain requirements to keep the juices as clean as possible. And from what I've heard these clean rooms are expensive.



@CharlieSierra What is KAZOR's Youtube channel called? I would very much like to see that video.[/QUOTE]
I think it's this one...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Thanks 1


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

aktorsyl said:


> Very true. But most juice manufacturers don't use clean rooms anymore, they use labs - usually certified labs. The fakes (don't call them clones, clones are what we call the legitimate DIY recreations of commercial juices) are obviously not made in a lab. Most likely in the back of a car repair shop for all we know. Stay away from that shit.


I am not trying to side with these fake juices, but I don't think they are made in the back of a car, they are mass produced. Though the quality of ingredients is questionable, they are following the principal of more sales but less profit margin. The market is flooded with these clones and it's like a parallel market to commercial juices. These are made in china so they have the advantage of cheap labour.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 2


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## Gandalf Vapes

@craigb Thanks so much for posting that here. I thoroughly enjoyed watching it. @KZOR has just got a new subscriber.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## vicTor

ha ha, for us PG sensitive peeps, VG nic is king !

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 1 | Funny 2


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## Room Fogger

vicTor said:


> ha ha, for us PG sensitive peeps, VG nic is king !


That’s why you are still shaking two days after mixing, muscle memory

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 6


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## Gandalf Vapes

vicTor said:


> ha ha, for us PG sensitive peeps, VG nic is king !



@vicTor First off, PG based nicotine is much easier to work with than PG based nicotine because it's is thinner. Secondly, I mainly mix for myself but I will give some to a few close friends from time to time. So far nobody has died from heart failure. I wonder what a brandy based nic will be like.... That might be interesting. No need to add any other ingredients

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## daniel craig

Naubrey said:


> I totally agree with that, and I think the problem is for me now, even though it tastes great, I dont know what the long term damage might be, its kind of a gamble.
> 
> Only thing for me is now, its easy to acquire as I said, I have no issue to buy real juice from reputable shops but everyone will charge me with a courier cost.
> 
> Do you know of any shops where couriers will charge at least less than 100 bucks?
> 
> I am more than willing to support the local juice guys and they are affordable but the whole courier thing for two 30ml or whatever bottles makes me cringe a bit, call me greedy but it feels like a moerse schlep and waste of money.


Drip Society offers free shipping on orders over R550 and their delivery fee for orders below R550 is under R60

Reactions: Like 2


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## daniel craig

But I agree with the rest of the members. DIY is the better route to go in the long run. The initial cost may seem high but it gets much cheaper. Occasionally you will also benefit from the sales that DIY vendors have.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

daniel craig said:


> But I agree with the rest of the members. DIY is the better route to go in the long run. The initial cost may seem high but it gets much cheaper. Occasionally you will also benefit from the sales that DIY vendors have.


No doubt I agree with ur point, but so far I have spent close to 1500 on DIY nearly 15 mixes, but not one that I like. I still tend to go back towards nasty juice devils teeth(i confess, yes the clone one) i understand where @Naubrey is coming from. no DIY that I made till now satisfies me to say that yes this is what I will vape for the rest of my life. I am waiting for the vape meet so that I can try few samples from other DIYers

Reactions: Like 1


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## daniel craig

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> No doubt I agree with ur point, but so far I have spent close to 1500 on DIY nearly 15 mixes, but not one that I like. I still tend to go back towards nasty juice devils teeth(i confess, yes the clone one) i understand where @Naubrey is coming from. no DIY that I made till now satisfies me to say that yes this is what I will vape for the rest of my life. I am waiting for the vape meet so that I can try few samples from other DIYers


Check out DIY Or Die or even try out One Shot concentrates by Enyawreklaw. I totally understand what you mean but there are some excellent recipes out in the wild. You just have to find them. When I started, the recipes that i like was Gush Clone, Flawless Aftermath clone. Now there are some great stuff like DIY Or Die's RY4 and many other Liquids. Also check out recipes released by vendors such as Bombies Deputy. You have to experiment with recipes that are highly rated from excellent mixers to find what you like. Also look at the concentrates used to know roughly how it would taste and whether that's what you want to vape.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## RainstormZA

Gandalf Vapes said:


> @vicTor First off, PG based nicotine is much easier to work with than PG based nicotine because it's is thinner. Secondly, I mainly mix for myself but I will give some to a few close friends from time to time. So far nobody has died from heart failure. I wonder what a brandy based nic will be like.... That might be interesting. No need to add any other ingredients



Heck yeah bring it on. Lol


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## RenaldoRheeder

I use VG-based nic and have not had a single issue with it. I stir my nic before I use it in my mixing. No taste issues and no mixing issues. 


Sent by iDad's iPhone

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Hooked

@Naubrey 

Firstly, there is a vape juice manufacturer in Upington. They are Rebel Revolution Vape @BaD Mountain and they are, in fact, a supporting vendor on this forum. I see that's about 2.5 hours from where you are, but perhaps if you happen to be in Upington. If not, Rebel Revolution will deliver to you without a problem. I ordered some juice from them and it was delivered to me in an outlying area in the Western Cape.

Here is more info for you:

Kobus Visagie aka BaD Mountain
Rebel Revolution Vape
062 514 4108
kobusv@revolutionvape.co.za
www.revolutionvape.co.za

I'd suggest that you PM BaD Mountain here on the forum (if you don't know how to do that tell me and I'll explain) - or he can PM you. Forum rules do not permit him to reply in this thread.

Here's their forum link https://www.ecigssa.co.za/forums/rebel-revolution-vape/ where they *are* allowed to reply to any questions.

I don't have any vape shops nearby either, so I order most of my juice online, from Gauteng area, Tzaneen, Durban - and Upington! 

Vendors offer free shipping if your order is above a certain amount - but it's usually quite a high amount. If your order is below their minimum, you have to pay for shipping, but their shipping charges are clearly stated in their shipping policies on their websites. The shipping charge is added to your bill and included in your payment to them, so there are no nasty surprises. 

*There is one vendor who does not charge delivery fees, irrespective of how little you buy, and that is Vaper's Corner.*

ALL the vendors deliver vape stuff, be it mods, juice, coils etc. so the fact that you're out in the bundus makes absolutely no difference. 

If you want to know who our supporting vendors are, scroll down on the home page of this forum to Local Supporting Vendors. Then go to their websites and have a look at all the juice and shipping policy. On some websites it's difficult to find the shipping policy, but a quick way to do that is to Google the name of the vendor and "shipping policy". 

Example:
Let's say the vendor's name is The Vape Guy (there really IS a vendor called of this name and I often buy from him.)
You would Google the following: The Vape Guy shipping policy

Hope this info is helpful to you and feel free to ask further questions!

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## aktorsyl

Gandalf Vapes said:


> I agree 100% with that statement. When I bought my first DIY ingredients, I made the mistake of buying the VG based nicotine. It is hell to mix with. I don't think I have done a mix where I haven't gone over with the nicotine. Fortunately for me that few mg extra doesn't kill my mixes. I usually mix in 250ml batches, so the extra few mg doesn't have that big an effect on the mix.


Yup. That, and it's hotspot central. And if you put it in an HDPE bottle with a dropper tip for easier dispensing, it's harder to shake. And it separates pretty quickly. And and and

Reactions: Agree 1


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## aktorsyl

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> I am not trying to side with these fake juices, but I don't think they are made in the back of a car, they are mass produced. Though the quality of ingredients is questionable, they are following the principal of more sales but less profit margin. The market is flooded with these clones and it's like a parallel market to commercial juices. These are made in china so they have the advantage of cheap labour.


Granted, I was maybe exaggerating a bit for effect. But even mass-produced juices aiming to be produced on the cheap can have some really dodgy crap going into it. Maybe some (even most) don't, but yknow. Besides, *mass-produced does not mean clean*. Yes, nicotine is a pretty good antimicrobial agent, but still.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

aktorsyl said:


> Granted, I was maybe exaggerating a bit for effect. But even mass-produced juices aiming to be produced on the cheap can have some really dodgy crap going into it. Maybe some (even most) don't, but yknow. Besides, *mass-produced does not mean clean*. Yes, nicotine is a pretty good antimicrobial agent, but still.


I think they produce it in doggy sweat shops

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Hooked

Speaking of fake juice, I've been told by someone in the industry that our government has forbidden imports of any juice from China, due to fake products and the possible health danger if dangerous substances have been used in the making of the juice.

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## Hooked

I don't think it's fair to slate a juice just because it wasn't made in a clean-room or lab. No DIYer has a clean-room.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## aktorsyl

Hooked said:


> I don't think it's fair to slate a juice just because it wasn't made in a clean-room or lab. No DIYer has a clean-room.


No DIY'er is marketing it as a commercial juice.

I make my own juice. In a clean room? No. But would I sell it to others? Hell no. If they get salmonella or listeria or cornucopia or whatever the hell from it, then that'd be on me

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## jm10

Hooked said:


> I don't think it's fair to slate a juice just because it wasn't made in a clean-room or lab. No DIYer has a clean-room.



@Hooked True but they run a business and its in the health sector so they should, to keep standards and customers safer.

I have a few Restaurant customers and trust me when i say i would support some and never eat at others. 

Anything that your body takes in should he handled with the most care and cleanliness. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## SHiBBY

Start with THIS calculator (comes with a bunch of recipes off the bat)

Then check out THIS or THIS or THIS or THIS or THIS for loads of recipes. There are a bunch more, I just grabbed the familiar ones I've used before.

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## Hooked

aktorsyl said:


> No DIY'er is marketing it as a commercial juice.
> 
> I make my own juice. In a clean room? No. But would I sell it to others? Hell no. If they get salmonella or listeria or cornucopia or whatever the hell from it, then that'd be on me



Agree, but someone who is registered as a vendor on the forum makes his own juice and sells it - I'm referring to @KZOR.


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## Hooked

Speaking of clean-rooms, I'd been vaping for about a week when I met the owner and mixologist of a juice line. He makes the juice at home, but he made sure to tell me that he has a clean room. I assumed that he meant that *that* room in his house was clean, but not the others. Only later in the conversation did I realise that wasn't what he meant and he then explained what a clean-room is. 

Hyphens are important:
Clean-room means a proper mixing room, meeting health standards re air purity, stainless steel counters etc. etc.
Clean room simply means a room that is clean!

Reactions: Like 2


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## RainstormZA

Hooked said:


> Speaking of clean-rooms, I'd been vaping for about a week when I met the owner and mixologist of a juice line. He makes the juice at home, but he made sure to tell me that he has a clean room. I assumed that he meant that *that* room in his house was clean, but not the others. Only later in the conversation did I realise that wasn't what he meant and he then explained what a clean-room is.
> 
> Hyphens are important:
> Clean-room means a proper mixing room, meeting health standards re air purity, stainless steel counters etc. etc.
> Clean room simply means a room that is clean!



Or a laboratory style where it's easier to keep things clean. I have been in a lab and believe it or not, I want a lab style room for my stuff - not only ejuice but I work with herbs too for food and medicine. I harvest, clean, dry and then package the dried / grinder herbs into tubs for the winter.

Reactions: Like 2 | Creative 1


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## aktorsyl

Hooked said:


> Speaking of clean-rooms, I'd been vaping for about a week when I met the owner and mixologist of a juice line. He makes the juice at home, but he made sure to tell me that he has a clean room. I assumed that he meant that *that* room in his house was clean, but not the others. Only later in the conversation did I realise that wasn't what he meant and he then explained what a clean-room is.
> 
> Hyphens are important:
> Clean-room means a proper mixing room, meeting health standards re air purity, stainless steel counters etc. etc.
> Clean room simply means a room that is clean!


Yes, I was referring to the former (with the hyphen)  Usually they have positive pressure too.
I work in clean-rooms and labs on a daily basis (not e-liquid-related, though), they're a pain to maintain.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

RainstormZA said:


> I work with herbs too for food and medicine. I harvest, clean, dry and then package the dried / grinder herbs into tubs for the winter.


"herbs" .... just kidding

Reactions: Winner 1 | Funny 5


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## RainstormZA

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> "herbs" .... just kidding


Hehehe I wish. Can't risk getting a record before I go to the uk.

Mostly table herbs as they are quite expensive in the shops and no flavour to boost. Mine has so much flavour, even dried. My mom uses them fresh in salads and they're always a winner.

Reactions: Like 2


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## vicTor

RainstormZA said:


> Hehehe I wish. Can't risk getting a record before I go to the uk.
> 
> Mostly table herbs as they are quite expensive in the shops and no flavour to boost. Mine has so much flavour, even dried. My mom uses them fresh in salads and they're always a winner.



hope you don't forget us here on the forum when you go to UK !

Reactions: Agree 2


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## RainstormZA

vicTor said:


> hope you don't forget us here on the forum when you go to UK !



Heck no I won't forget you all.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Adephi

aktorsyl said:


> No DIY'er is marketing it as a commercial juice.
> 
> I make my own juice. In a clean room? No. But would I sell it to others? Hell no. If they get salmonella or listeria or cornucopia or whatever the hell from it, then that'd be on me



PG has got antimicrobial properties. There is an article on here somewhere of a woman in the UK that claims vaping helped her with a chronic streptococcus throat infection.
VG puts extreme osmotic pressure on bacteria further killing off whats left.
Then the coils burn at around 300°C if I'm correct. No pathogenic bacteria or virus can survive 100°C. Hence why need to boil water when you go camping.

the thing that bothers me about fakes, they obviously taste different. So even if the package states that it is free from acetyls and dikotyls and other things I have a hard time to type or pronounce, how much of that could be in there and at what levels.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## RainstormZA

Adephi said:


> PG has got antimicrobial properties. There is an article on here somewhere of a woman in the UK that claims vaping helped her with a chronic streptococcus throat infection.
> VG puts extreme osmotic pressure on bacteria further killing off whats left.
> Then the coils burn at around 300°C if I'm correct. No pathogenic bacteria or virus can survive 100°C. Hence why need to boil water when you go camping.
> 
> the thing that bothers me about fakes, they obviously taste different. So even if the package states that it is free from acetyls and dikotyls and other things I have a hard time to type or pronounce, how much of that could be in there and at what levels.


Ditto. I can taste chemicals very well which totally puts me off.


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## Hooked

aktorsyl said:


> Yes, I was referring to the former (with the hyphen)  Usually they have positive pressure too.
> I work in clean-rooms and labs on a daily basis (not e-liquid-related, though), they're a pain to maintain.



What do you do, @aktorsyl?


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## aktorsyl

Adephi said:


> PG has got antimicrobial properties. There is an article on here somewhere of a woman in the UK that claims vaping helped her with a chronic streptococcus throat infection.
> VG puts extreme osmotic pressure on bacteria further killing off whats left.
> Then the coils burn at around 300°C if I'm correct. No pathogenic bacteria or virus can survive 100°C. Hence why need to boil water when you go camping.
> 
> the thing that bothers me about fakes, they obviously taste different. So even if the package states that it is free from acetyls and dikotyls and other things I have a hard time to type or pronounce, how much of that could be in there and at what levels.


PG can deprive the microbes of water which definitely isn't good for them, yes.
I agree with you except on one aspect.. the coil doesn't burn the whole chamber at 300 C. Microbes can *technically* make their way to the condensation at the sides & top of the chamber and make its way into your airways. I say technically because the chances of that happening regularly are low. But they're not zero, so, yknow  If it's a tank, you'd probably see even less of that happening, since they pretty much would have to pass the coil first. In an RDA, they have a few shortcuts. Some of these little bastards can be pretty resilient. Handle a bottle of janky juice and touch your face, and there you go. An even shorter shortcut.

But what I'm generally even more concerned about is chemicals. You never know whether you've got FA Guava or catpiss in that bottle (FYI, they taste the same, I'd imagine). You don't know whether it has microscopic fibres from the environment in there. Imagine a guy mixing fake juices in his garage with damaged asbestos walls. That's a fun thing to vape.

*Yes, I realise the above are all worst-case scenarios*. Are they over the top? No, not really. If it can happen, you can bet it has happened to someone somewhere, and will again. If we want to put ourselves in a losing position in our debate with legislators on vaping laws, we'd be turning a blind eye to potentially dangerous fake juices.

Reactions: Like 5


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## RichJB

aktorsyl said:


> Microbes can *technically* make their way to the condensation at the sides & top of the chamber and make its way into your airways.



Not if your atty has perfect airflow. And we all know that there's only one bloke who has done that...

~ When you're all al-oen 
With a Chinese cl-oen
Who you gonna call?
Njord-busters!
If your juice is funked
And your coil is gunked
Who you gonna call?
Njord-busters!! ~

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3 | Funny 10


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## Silver

RichJB said:


> Not if your atty has perfect airflow. And we all know that there's only one bloke who has done that...
> 
> ~ When you're all al-oen
> With a Chinese cl-oen
> Who you gonna call?
> Njord-busters!
> If your juice is funked
> And your coil is gunked
> Who you gonna call?
> Njord-busters!! ~



Classic @RichJB !

Reactions: Agree 1 | Thanks 1


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## Humbolt

Possibly off topic, but how many of our juice makers actually manufacture their products in lab quality clean rooms? Just have a look on Facebook, everybody these days is a juice maker. And what irks me the most, is the pricing. These "homebrew" juice makers selling their juices at the same price and sometimes more than well established juice companies like VooDoo for example, who, and I stand to be corrected, actually do manufacture their juices in a lab. So what is the difference between buying a fake chinese juice and a local "homebrew" juice then, when neither of them have gauranteed quality controls in place?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

A few months back I was visiting a local groceries stores and I saw the shop keeper selling a pack of "j**" cigarettes which is a SA brand for R12. A few days later I was at pick and pay and I saw the same cigarette being sold for around R30! I dint understand this, I assumed that the local groceries store was selling fakes so when I got a chance I spoke to the grocery store guy who told me that these are cigarettes for which some of the taxes have not been paid and thats why its cheap. He said these local brands and they cannot compete with the international brands if they are of the same price hence they find a way to avoid taxes and target the low income group who cannot afford expensive cigarettes. 

Whatever he said kept me wondering if it was the truth or just a cover up for the fact that he is selling fakes. So I did some research and found out that the actual cost of production of a packet of cigarettes is less than R5 but then taxes like central excise, production tax, Octroi, VAT etc etc add up and then the distributor and retailer margins makes the commodity expensive. 

I am guessing the Chinese are doing something similar in regards to nasty juice, but this theory doesn't explain clones for vgod, western nic etc.


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## RainstormZA

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> A few months back I was visiting a local groceries stores and I saw the shop keeper selling a pack of "j**" cigarettes which is a SA brand for R12. A few days later I was at pick and pay and I saw the same cigarette being sold for around R30! I dint understand this, I assumed that the local groceries store was selling fakes so when I got a chance I spoke to the grocery store guy who told me that these are cigarettes for which some of the taxes have not been paid and thats why its cheap. He said these local brands and they cannot compete with the international brands if they are of the same price hence they find a way to avoid taxes and target the low income group who cannot afford expensive cigarettes.
> 
> Whatever he said kept me wondering if it was the truth or just a cover up for the fact that he is selling fakes. So I did some research and found out that the actual cost of production of a packet of cigarettes is less than R5 but then taxes like central excise, production tax, Octroi, VAT etc etc add up and then the distributor and retailer margins makes the commodity expensive.
> 
> I am guessing the Chinese are doing something similar in regards to nasty juice, but this theory doesn't explain clones for vgod, western nic etc.



Cross border smuggling - that's why it's cheap. Someone told me, I Cant remember if it was a friend or shopkeeper.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

Adephi said:


> PG has got antimicrobial properties. There is an article on here somewhere of a woman in the UK that the thing that bothers me about fakes, they obviously taste different. So even if the package states that it is free from acetyls and dikotyls and other things I have a hard time to type or pronounce, how much of that could be in there and at what levels.





Humbolt said:


> Possibly off topic, but how many of our juice makers actually manufacture their products in lab quality clean rooms? Just have a look on Facebook, everybody these days is a juice maker. And what irks me the most, is the pricing. These "homebrew" juice makers selling their juices at the same price and sometimes more than well established juice companies like VooDoo for example, who, and I stand to be corrected, actually do manufacture their juices in a lab. So what is the difference between buying a fake chinese juice and a local "homebrew" juice then, when neither of them have guaranteed quality controls in place?



Unless there is a government quality control or a "department of juice control" these checks will never be done. 
Also we have all come across legal actions against well known brands for not meeting standards or misleading facts on their packaging. Famous examples are "johnson and johnson" baby power has asbestos in it, or recently "Maggie" being banned in India because of misleading packaging and possible lead in their noodles.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

RainstormZA said:


> Cross border smuggling - that's why it's cheap. Someone told me, I Cant remember if it was a friend or shopkeeper.


That and there is South African produced cigarettes for which somehow they have avoided all taxes.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## aktorsyl

Humbolt said:


> Possibly off topic, but how many of our juice makers actually manufacture their products in lab quality clean rooms? Just have a look on Facebook, everybody these days is a juice maker. And what irks me the most, is the pricing. These "homebrew" juice makers selling their juices at the same price and sometimes more than well established juice companies like VooDoo for example, who, and I stand to be corrected, actually do manufacture their juices in a lab. So what is the difference between buying a fake chinese juice and a local "homebrew" juice then, when neither of them have gauranteed quality controls in place?


I've seen a few of them mention the fact. We've seen VapourMountain's facility, and the labels of a few more local juices state that they are manufactured in positive-pressure clean-rooms. Can't recall off the top of my head which ones, but I'd imagine almost all of the mainstream ones are. These guys took time to develop a quality juice, they're not going to take chances. Yes, there aren't regulations specific to the production of e-liquids, but if the regulators want to be spiteful or creative they can still throw the book at transgressors under the food safety regulations.

What you will also find, is that many of the juice manufacturers outsource the actual "production" of the juice to a company that is FSSC/ISO (with or without HACCP) certified. This helps them cut costs and keep product quality consistent.

The pricing is a whole other arena of debate though. Personally I think most of the juice manufacturers are borderline insane with the prices they're charging at the moment. But that's a topic for another thread  The one-shots are doing a lot to alleviate this problem, however.

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## Humbolt

aktorsyl said:


> I've seen a few of them mention the fact. We've seen VapourMountain's facility, and the labels of a few more local juices state that they are manufactured in positive-pressure clean-rooms. Can't recall off the top of my head which ones, but I'd imagine almost all of the mainstream ones are. These guys took time to develop a quality juice, they're not going to take chances. Yes, there aren't regulations specific to the production of e-liquids, but if the regulators want to be spiteful or creative they can still throw the book at transgressors under the food safety regulations.
> 
> What you will also find, is that many of the juice manufacturers outsource the actual "production" of the juice to a company that is FSSC/ISO (with our without HACCP) certified. This helps them cut costs and keep product quality consistent.
> 
> The pricing is a whole other arena of debate though. Personally I think most of the juice manufacturers are borderline insane with the prices they're charging at the moment. But that's a topic for another thread


 Bordererline insane is being nice, they are definitley insane with their prices and it pisses me off. Anyways, like I said, the juice makers who have been around from the start or from early in the vaping game, such as Vapour Mountain, really do what is best for the consumer by having clean rooms. My point is though, that we are all against these fake chinese juices, and rightfully so, but what about these homebrew juice makers who are absolutely everywhere too? Everybody is jumping on the juice making bandwagon to make a quick buck. On your point about outsourcing to a lab, I know that Lungasm does this. I feel more juice makers should state on their packaging that their juice is lab produced, or at least have some sort of proof that it is. I suppose that is where legislation and regulations will help.

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## Humbolt

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> *Unless there is a government quality control or a "department of juice control" these checks will never be done. *
> Also we have all come across legal actions against well known brands for not meeting standards or misleading facts on their packaging. Famous examples are "johnson and johnson" baby power has asbestos in it, or recently "Maggie" being banned in India because of misleading packaging and possible lead in their noodles.


True, and I suppose its too much to expect some juice manufacturers to actually have some integrity to put the proper quality control procedures into place and make it known on their label.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RichJB

The draft Bill makes reference to this:



> 7. (1) No person shall manufacture for sale or import a tobacco product or electronic delivery system unless it complies with such standards as may be prescribed and has been tested in the prescribed manner and using prescribed methods.
> ...
> 9. (1) the Minister may make regulations regarding -
> ...
> (d) the content, composition and emissions of a relevant product, including -
> (i) the amount of any substance or ingredient that may be contained in a product or its emissions...



This makes clear reference to standards, which prescribe specifications that the product should comply with (voluntary standard) or must comply with (compulsory specification). The future tense "may" is used because we currently don't have a national standard for juice, nor does the international community, ISO is still working on it. Once ISO finalises and publishes the standard, my guess is that SA will adopt it as is for the SA National Standard on juice.

That leaves juice manufacturers or importers with two routes: 
1) Have the product tested locally, by the SABS or another accredited third party lab, for compliance with the national standard. Or
2) Supply paperwork from an accredited lab overseas that the product complies with the international standard and therefore with the SANS.

Both routes should open access to our market. This is also the reason why national standards bodies are urged to adopt the ISO international standard as their national standard because it reduces bureaucracy and enables global trade. The ideal for standards bodies and regulators is for products to be "tested against one standard, once". If every country adopts the same standard for juice, then any manufacturer who has his product tested and complies with that standard has access to every market, which is the goal of the free market principle.

It seems some SA industry players are against the imposition of standards as they feel this will be used to "ban" products. That is the glass half-empty view. The glass half-full view is that when you have a standard in place, you have a legal mechanism to lock sub-standard products out of our market. Currently, regulators could confiscate and destroy fakes due to IP infringements but not due to safety. The manufacturer, importer or seller could ask govt to quantify what is in the juice that is not allowed to be there, and which merits confiscation. Govt wouldn't have an answer for them. They will only have that answer when there is a national standard in place.

It is true that the government could write the standards in such a ridiculously prescriptive way that many products are prohibited. But I can't see this happening for three reasons. The first is that standards development is an inclusive process that involves govt, industry and civil society. So the juice industry would have representatives in the technical committee that drafted the standard. 

The second reason is that it costs a lot of money to develop a standard. You have to pay a bunch of experts to give up their time to sit in discussions and meetings. Govt is usually unwilling to spend that sort of money if they can just take the ISO international standard as is and adopt it as the SANS.

The third reason is that having a different standard from the rest of the world puts us out of sync. Generally, we don't like being out of sync. That is why we are adopting the WHO's guidance on tobacco regulations. We like to fit in with what other countries are doing. 

There are aspects of the regulations which warrant concern and opposition. But the imposition of national/international standards isn't one of those things imo. This is not some new-fangled thing, it is a robust mechanism that is applied to almost all industry sectors and it generally works well to safeguard the interests of consumers and legit manufacturers/importers/retailers alike.

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