# This needs to be said!



## Cespian

Firstly, I wasn't certain where to put this thread. Secondly, this is probably just my unpopular opinion and I know I am probably going to get a lot of crap for this but I believe it needs to be put out there.

==BEGIN RANT==

Vaping in South Africa is fairly new, and with most fairly new crazes, comes business opportunities. I have seen 10's of "E-Liquid Companies" popping up like alien vegetation over the past few months, and not just venders registered on this forum, but random okes selling from their cars etc.

Alot of these E-Juice Companies make absolutely brilliant and innovative flavours, using top quality ingredients etc. But what I've noticed is that some of these spontaneous venders are blatantly selling clones and to make matters worse, are selling these clones at normal price (R130 - R150).

I know what it takes to develop a flavour - I also know how much it costs to develop a flavour. It takes a lot of time, effort and money (alot of fellow vapers on this forum can vouch for my DIY'ing). Taking the very first factor into consideration, I let my juices steep for a month before determining if the recipe needs to be changed or not.

What urks me alot is that these juices are being sold by some of our top venders. I once experienced a case where I tasted 2 different branded juices at the same store and they tasted EXACTLY the same.

I really find it unethical that someone would take a recipe from the internet, market it as their "own creation", maybe tweaking the %'s a bit and then still have the nerve to charge full price. If you wanna sell a clone... exclude the RnD costs because its unfair to the guys who are truly putting in effort to develop their own stuff. 

How do we regulate this sort of thing? How do we seperate the cloners from the mixologists and make this market a competitive one where we are expose to only TOP QUALITY e-liquid?

I am not going to name and shame on a public forum as it is not my style. Like I mentioned, it is probably my unpopular opinion. Please share your thoughts and experiences.

==END OF RANT==

Reactions: Like 8 | Agree 22


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## BeardedVaper93

This is fully agree with. there is a clear cut list of clones that 70% of companies out there have, but at the end of the day, as a DIYer myself, it is not fair to bill at the same rate. we are vapers. not idiots. on no planet does it cost 120 - 150 to make a 30ml juice. so stop ripping us off. i guarantee that with the right market knowledge on marketing and supply, a good clone at cheap price will trump a great clone at a rip off.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Ezekiel

While I agree wholeheartedly with you, as well as getting annoyed when a vendor tries to pawn an exact clone juice off on me just because I liked the original (a vendor got a bit PO'd at me when I told him I will never buy a juice which had the audicity of not even changing the 'snake oil' name), the fact remains that clone and diy recipes are generally public domain. I would never want any of these businesses regulated by saying you cannot sell non-original juice. I know it feels 'unfair' towards some of the great mixologists in this country, since inevitably their own juices will find smaller market margins just because of the sheer number of juice lines out there, but I honestly feel regulating it in any way is unethical.

The most which any of us can do is to repost, review and praise decent local originals, with the hope that potential buyers will rather buy something new and good when they are able to read something about it. In addition, when many people learn that you can make a popular clone yourself at a third of the cost with very little experience, we might get lower margins on the 'premium clones' out there.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Ezekiel

That said, Im tempted to never buy a juice from a line if they stock a 'strawberry milkshake' juice. Its getting ridiculous to the point that we might have to include strawberries and cream as a separate category for the Best of 2016 comp.

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Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 4


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## BeardedVaper93

Ezekiel said:


> While I agree wholeheartedly with you, as well as getting annoyed when a vendor tries to pawn an exact clone juice off on me just because I liked the original (a vendor got a bit PO'd at me when I told him I will never buy a juice which had the audicity of not even changing the 'snake oil' name), the fact remains that clone and diy recipes are generally public domain. I would never want any of these businesses regulated by saying you cannot sell non-original juice. I know it feels 'unfair' towards some of the great mixologists in this country, since inevitably their own juices will find smaller market margins just because of the sheer number of juice lines out there, but I honestly feel regulating it in any way is unethical.
> 
> The most which any of us can do is to repost, review and praise decent local originals, with the hope that potential buyers will rather buy something new and good when they are able to read something about it. In addition, when many people learn that you can make a popular clone yourself at a third of the cost with very little experience, we might get lower margins on the 'premium clones' out there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk




i cannot disagree one bit. another encounter we have is the following: (example)
your juice - cinnamon strawberry custard 
my juice - spicy creamy berry custard
OG juice - STRAW DOGS by ELP

all 3 completely different

i oath that no matter who reads your descriptions, it will be sold as a mothers milk clone thanks to ignorant sales people... which to me is a sad reality

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Kaizer

Personally, I only buy juices that have been suggested by recognized members of the forum and approved by top vendors. My logic is purely about safety. Who knows where the "new" juice makers are making their juices. What environmental conditions are these juices being mixed in? Is it in a lab or clean room of sorts or maybe just in someones garage where I could be inhaling some mold that could have fallen into the mix.

A non-profit that goes around evaluating the DIY'ers juice making conditions providing a stamp of approval could be a way forward, but this will probably lead to price increases..... just a thought.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Mike

BeardedVaper93 said:


> on no planet does it cost 120 - 150 to make a 30ml juice. so stop ripping us off.



Just to chime in here (always a dangerous thing as a vendor). Vendors have markups. Some as much as 100%. I had one vendor tell me he'll only sell if he's able to put a 200% markup on.

Don't blame that one on the juice makers 

Another thing to consider. Strawberry creams sell. It's a staple, like fruit loops or apple pie or something with dragonfruit. Sometimes these things happen due to popularity, not copying. Sometimes however, that's not the case.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 7 | Winner 1


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## Cespian

BeardedVaper93 said:


> i cannot disagree one bit. another encounter we have is the following: (example)
> your juice - cinnamon strawberry custard
> my juice - spicy creamy berry custard
> OG juice - STRAW DOGS by ELP
> 
> all 3 completely different
> 
> i oath that no matter who reads your descriptions, it will be sold as a mothers milk clone thanks to ignorant sales people... which to me is a sad reality




The common ones out there that I found:

Looper
Mothers Milk
Unicorn Milk/Blood
Strawberry Milkshake
Snake Oil (lol)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Cespian

Mike said:


> Just to chime in here (always a dangerous thing as a vendor). Vendors have markups. Some as much as 100%. I had one vendor tell me he'll only sell if he's able to put a 200% markup on.
> 
> Don't blame that one on the juice makers
> 
> Another thing to consider. Strawberry creams sell. It's a staple, like fruit loops or apple pie or something with dragonfruit. Sometimes these things happen due to popularity, not copying. Sometimes however, that's not the case.



Mike, I agree with you. What I am referring to are the blatant clones. Yes, it is expected that we will see similar flavours popping up, example, strawberry and cream or strawberry milkshake... but there are too many that are just blatantly Mustard Milk... an exact clone that I have made in my room using nothing but the internet, blue nitrile gloves and a few syringes.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Waine

Kaizer said:


> Personally, I only buy juices that have been suggested by recognized members of the forum and approved by top vendors. My logic is purely about safety. Who knows where the "new" juice makers are making their juices. What environmental conditions are these juices being mixed in? Is it in a lab or clean room of sorts or maybe just in someones garage where I could be inhaling some mold that could have fallen into the mix.
> 
> A non-profit that goes around evaluating the DIY'ers juice making conditions providing a stamp of approval could be a way forward, but this will probably lead to price increases..... just a thought.



I second this and everything that was said in this thread. If a vendor wants to sell a new line of juice, a person from that vendor should inspect the premises where it is made and see how it is made. This is the norm for any "substance" that is marketed. Sellers check out the premises where it is manufactured to see if standards are met. There are clearly many fly by nights who make 'Kitchen juice" and pass it off as professionally made.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## BeardedVaper93

So where is the logic then to buy 30ml at 150 when you can clone it and DIY for like 100% cheaper... as a DIYer, i oath never to buy liquids again. even if it was made on the queens dinner plate. it is exploitation and total nonsense to rip vapers off... IMHO

Reactions: Like 2


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## Cespian

BeardedVaper93 said:


> So where is the logic then to buy 30ml at 150 when you can clone it and DIY for like 100% cheaper... as a DIYer, i oath never to buy liquids again. even if it was made on the queens dinner plate. it is exploitation and total nonsense to rip vapers off... IMHO



I DIY, but still buy local juice because:

a. support our local fellows
b. see what innovative stuff people are creating for inspiration for my own stuff (especially with import juices)

I save signficant costs making my own, however, it's nice to go and get "take-outs" from time to time

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 6


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## BeardedVaper93

Cespian said:


> I DIY, but still buy local juice because:
> 
> a. support our local fellows
> b. see what innovative stuff people are creating for inspiration for my own stuff (especially with import juices)
> 
> I save signficant costs making my own, however, it's nice to go and get "take-outs" from time to time




it is a valid point, and please, everyone here, i love vaping and i'm proud to say we have a huge variety out there, but as an average joe, i cannot afford massive markups and worst of all on something you cannot taste before you buy...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ezekiel

Mike said:


> Another thing to consider. Strawberry creams sell. It's a staple, like fruit loops or apple pie or something with dragonfruit. Sometimes these things happen due to popularity, not copying. Sometimes however, that's not the case.



Thanks for chipping in @Mike - its actually good to have a vendor/juice-maker's opinion, since most of us don't have any knowledge of the actual sales.

I get fully that strawberry creams, and all the popular clone + clone variants sell. My worry is this:

If a juice line starts getting crowded (as in, too many different juices and running risk of overloading a prospective buyer), the first juice to be dropped will be the one that doesn't sell as nicely, right? Take your own Noggy Rock for instance. I love that juice - its so different than anything else in the local market. But it is a bit of a distinct/acquired taste, and therefore, I expect it to not sell as wonderfully as Sweet Bac for instance. So if you start making a bunch of popular clones since they sell better, which juice do you drop from your line when it starts getting crowded? 

The same goes for vendors stocking other juices. As a vendor, you cannot really stock ALL the juices, for various reasons. So again, which ones do you decide to not stock? Especially if a vendor wants to stock all the juices of a particular line, he might be tempted to stock a line of mostly clones since they might sell better. I'm worried that, once we have too many juice lines out there, some of the really interesting juices in this country might eventually fade away.

I have no solution for this - it is, after all, mostly market driven. The only possible thing I can think of is to have variable pricing on different juices in the same line, selling the (mostly) clones cheaper and marketing the creative originals as premium, hand-crafted juice.

I also don't necessarily know how big of the market the frequent users on this forum represents. Most of the popular juices with a lot of mentions on here are generally the more interesting and original ones, but does that translate to the general buyer?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Vapington

Unfortunately with such a relatively easy industry to get into, you are going to have MANY chancers and bandwagon jumpers trying to make a quick buck off a growing market. 

I do agree with the Strawberry flavours (we do have ourselves but we started a year ago when there were not many on the local market) and we dropped Fruloops for the very reason that the market was flooded with them - again we were one of the first in the country to bring out this flavour but we didn't want to be another fruit loop juice maker.


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## NewOobY

this is a touchy subject, while I mostly agree from a customer perspective - I also understand cloning recipes from a vendor perspective make more $$$$, since not so much R&D is required. 

Also we have to realize that even a simple thing like the bread price is fixed across different bread makers. So if all vendors are selling local joose for R150, then why sell your clone for R70 when you can sell it for the standard market price of R150. Amounts here are just for reference, they are buy no means exact prices. However the point is clear "mo money, less work". Think about it, if you can get a job done in less time yet still bill the client the full amount - would you not continue to use that method of getting the job done quickly. 

Now I know I am going to be hated about this, but I thought about this long and hard the other day because I came across a cloned recipe and thought goodness this is a cheap shot, so I've had time to think about it - and my conclusion is I understand the need to clone recipes, they quick wins dude.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Silver

Interesting thread @Cespian

I have one potential solution I could put forward at this point:
http://www.ecigssa.co.za/forums/e-liquid-reviews/

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Mike

Ezekiel said:


> Thanks for chipping in @Mike - its actually good to have a vendor/juice-maker's opinion, since most of us don't have any knowledge of the actual sales.
> 
> I get fully that strawberry creams, and all the popular clone + clone variants sell. My worry is this:
> 
> If a juice line starts getting crowded (as in, too many different juices and running risk of overloading a prospective buyer), the first juice to be dropped will be the one that doesn't sell as nicely, right? Take your own Noggy Rock for instance. I love that juice - its so different than anything else in the local market. But it is a bit of a distinct/acquired taste, and therefore, I expect it to not sell as wonderfully as Sweet Bac for instance. So if you start making a bunch of popular clones since they sell better, which juice do you drop from your line when it starts getting crowded?
> 
> I have no solution for this - it is, after all, mostly market driven. The only possible thing I can think of is to have variable pricing on different juices in the same line, selling the (mostly) clones cheaper and marketing the creative originals as premium, hand-crafted juice.



I may be warned again for this hahahah! But it is directly related to what you're talking about.

I mentioned in @method1's podcast that I'm dropping a juice. It was a toss up between my worst seller (so bottom of 11) and an average seller. I chose to drop the average seller due to it being a "clone" and that it was initially released as a cheaper alternative to a popular, imported juice which was obviously quite expensive. My logic was that the concentrates to make it (although less accurately, but hey semantics) are available locally now, there's no reason for me to make it when I can keep producing something unique.

I guess not all juice makers share this perspective. For some people it is really just about the money.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 3


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## Silver

Thread moved to "Who has stock"
Please continue

Reactions: Thanks 2


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## Stosta

I agree with you 100% @Cespian . I think morally it's appaling to sell clones. However morals and money seldom play nicely together.

Even though I'm no marxist or communist, I'm just going to leave a little Karl Marx here... "Nothing can have value, without being an object of utility".

Reactions: Like 3


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## NewOobY

Silver said:


> Interesting thread @Cespian
> 
> I have one potential solution I could put forward at this point:
> http://www.ecigssa.co.za/forums/e-liquid-reviews/


as tempting as this may be, I'm afraid I don't like giving negative ratings on juices - I've made this mistake before, and was attacked with pitch forks and fire. Lots of fire.


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## Silver

NewOobY said:


> as tempting as this may be, I'm afraid I don't like giving negative ratings on juices - I've made this mistake before, and was attacked with pitch forks and fire. Lots of fire.
> View attachment 47155



I hear you @NewOobY 
It takes a lot of skill to do a negative review in a manner that doesn't overly offend.
But well-written and _well considered _negative reviews are good, not just for the juice maker but also the members and the industry.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## NewOobY

I have just decided that I like @Mike a lot, you sir are a gentleman - and I really cannot wait to get my hands on your juices. I will dig deep into my non-vape related CUD budget and get me some MMM .

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## Andre

I do not DIY - tried and failed. Still tempted by all the awesome DIY members' posts in the forums. Might still give it a go just for dry, tart and slightly bitter juices, which are very scarce. EDIT: Just saw @Ezekiel's post above. Love the idea - ask more for those artisan juices. Like Vapour Mountain does for their Legends range. I love the Legends Lee, but realize such a dryish, edgy juice might not suit the majority of vapers. Thus, I am prepared to pay more for it to keep it on the shelf.

I could not care less if a local juice is a clone, tweaked or not. Armed with a good idea of what I like and do not like, I check out flavour profiles and descriptions, check out what others say or do not say, take into consideration my previous experiences (if any). Then I buy. Generally, if that juice disappoint I will not buy from that line again - unless I see some glowing comments to the contrary. New, unique flavour profile juices I give a go from time to time.

The market will sort it out - and it does as we have already seen. In the mean time let common sense prevail.

*REWARD*: Substantial reward offered for a clone of Tarks Select Reserve Matador.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 2


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## Andre

NewOobY said:


> as tempting as this may be, I'm afraid I don't like giving negative ratings on juices - I've made this mistake before, and was attacked with pitch forks and fire. Lots of fire.


I agree, the majority of vapers are not going to give a negative formal review. That in itself is a good indication of the relative merit of a juice for me - if it is not reviewed or mentioned in the forums (e.g. the What did you vape today thread) I tend to stay away.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## stevie g

Honestly this is all semantics. People are in the industry to make money and if others buy their juices more power to them. I think a guy sitting in his bedroom mixing a couple of mls of juice for himself has no actual idea how time consuming it is to churn out 1000 bottles of juice a month.

I wholesale to another vendor and they use their own labelling I just make the eliquid and bottle it. Making 24 litres of juice with 40 variants is not the same as making 50ml diy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## oldtimerZA

Adapt your business model or stop selling juice.
What happened in Software when companies were fighting off piracy?
They either :
1) Made it very difficult to copy their software with DRM, etc.
2) Made a new business model that made the software free to use with added extras costing you.(most notably LoL and DotA2).

So instead of whining that your "precious " flavour got copied again.
Either:
1) make your flavour uncopyable(probably impossible).
2) Make a new business model that doesn't care if your flavour gets copied.

Proposed solution:
Set up a service where you allow custom flavour mixings so a person pops online and makes an order for 30ml bottles with a mix of Banana, Peanut Butter and Fresh Cream.
you then whip it together(from premade single flavour, steeped juices) and send it out.

Then offer your "Recommended" mixtures on the site, these can be your "Signature" flavours.
So then what if someone copies a signature flavour of yours? ... It has no effect, because you're no longer caring about your signature flavours.
Your business model is "Signature flavour agnostic", if you have them or not you'll still sell juice.
The only thing that affects you again is your competitive market price.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Cespian

Sprint said:


> Honestly this is all semantics. People are in the industry to make money and if others buy their juices more power to them. I think a guy sitting in his bedroom mixing a couple of mls of juice for himself has no actual idea how time consuming it is to churn out 1000 bottles of juice a month.
> 
> I wholesale to another vendor and they use their own labelling I just make the eliquid and bottle it. Making 24 litres of juice with 40 variants is not the same as making 50ml diy.



With all due respects sir, this discussion was aimed at selling clones and the ethics of charging a benchmarked fee for little to no RnD. I do understand where you are coming from regarding quantities, however (not aimed at you though) just because a vender needs to manufacture litres of juice a day, does not warrant selling clones

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Ezekiel

Vapington said:


> I do agree with the Strawberry flavours (we do have ourselves but we started a year ago when there were not many on the local market) and we dropped Fruloops for the very reason that the market was flooded with them - again we were one of the first in the country to bring out this flavour but we didn't want to be another fruit loop juice maker.



Ironically, yours' were the very first strawberry and cream juice I ever tasted, and still hits the spot I have in my mind when I think about that kind of juice. Conesequently, I will never buy any other strawberry & cream juice, but I've re-ordered Strawb before. 

I think the same will happen with most people - they might buy a clone of a popular juice early in their vape journey, and will probably stick with that brand for a long time, despite many other slight variations on the same juice from different lines. In this way, I guess it warrants to have a decent popular juice in your line. However, most people will probably still buy a unique and original juice from a different line for the pure sake that they can't get it anywhere else.



Mike said:


> I guess not all juice makers share this perspective. For some people it is really just about the money.



Aw but @Mike, this is probably why your juice line will keep on selling and gaining momentum long after only-clone lines have perished. 

Any mixologist who keeps pushing the market and releasing creative new juices (because they enjoy it, rather than aiming for profit alone) will

a) get everyone, including vendors, talking, thereby attracting new customers
b) get new customers to try your juice line because they can't get a particular juice anywhere else

Once you have a customer who have tried one of your juices and was impressed, I assume they will be more likely to try your other juices as well - whether these are clones or not.

Which means, in a slightly flooded market, you are more likely to attract customers to your entire range through unique juices.

And therefore, as @Andre said, the market _should_ sort itself out.

Reactions: Like 2


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## stevie g

Cespian said:


> With all due respects sir, this discussion was aimed at selling clones and the ethics of charging a benchmarked fee for little to no RnD. I do understand where you are coming from regarding quantities, however (not aimed at you though) just because a vender needs to manufacture litres of juice a day, does not warrant selling clones


i hear you and agree somewhat, i just wanted to chime in on the cost of eliquid.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## oldtimerZA

While we're at it .
Juice makers are going to have a rude awakening when someone else comes along and offers juices at a far lower price.
There's no such thing as a "Benchmarked" price in a free market.

The reason you're losing money to the copiers is because the consumer doesn't give two shits whether you make ends meet.
All the consumer cares about is "I can get the exact tasting juice for half the price". 

So become more competitive.
- What can you offer the consumer that the copier can't? 
- A subscription service that gives your tasters new flavours monthly ?
- A rewards program with a big enough incentive to stay loyal?

It's not optimistic, it's business.
This is the way business has run and will always run.

If a chinese factory is willing to create RDA clones for a fraction of the cost of authentic, then the creator of the authentic needs to up his game.
In a market without patents(like those of juice and RDAs etc) it quickly becomes about who can offer the same product of comparable quality for a much reduced price.

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## NewOobY

sadly I disagree with your statement about "Bench-marked" prices take a look at the market around you, things you use daily e.g. bread, sugar, petrol, rent, cars all have some level of bench-marking. Yes we are fooled into believing you can charge whatever you want, but when you go and see what others are charging for similar - your money eye's come in an say kk I'll go with the flow. Or as a consumer kk now I need to look at other things that attract me to one vendor over another given that price is similar if not the same. 

But I agree with the rest of what you said


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## stevie g

It isn't the price that determines if a juice maker is successful or not it is his access to market. One guy running a website is going to make a fraction of the sales that the guy being stocked in kiosks and retail outlets will.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## oldtimerZA

NewOobY said:


> sadly I disagree with your statement about "Bench-marked" prices take a look at the market around you, things you use daily e.g. bread, sugar, petrol, rent, cars all have some level of bench-marking. Yes we are fooled into believing you can charge whatever you want, but when you go and see what others are charging for similar - your money eye's come in an say kk I'll go with the flow. Or as a consumer kk now I need to look at other things that attract me to one vendor over another given that price is similar if not the same.
> 
> But I agree with the rest of what you said



That's simply not true.
bread,sugar, petrol , rent, cars are only at a similar price because that's the lowest they can go and still make a profit. Should we get a surplus of bread tomorrow, then the market will react . Bread will go on special, prices will drop. You won't see PnP keeping their prices high while everyone else sells low. They'll lose money. The only reason those goods are at a "constant" price is because supply has met demand at that price point , should supply increase then price will drop.

What's happening in the Vape juice market in RSA is that everyone who is making has kind of agreed on a "R150/30ml" price point, and as soon as someone comes a long and says " actually I'm selling the same thing for less" then people start whining instead of adapting. This is price fixing.
There is an over supply for the demand.Someone else drops their price because of it and makes a profit. Those who don't follow suite will lose business.

Unfortunately it's incredibly easy to copy ejuice and ejuice can't be patented. Luckily its a consumable so the market can stagnate and still turn a profit( see hubbly flavours for example).

So change your business model.
People seem to be content with the current arrangement of flavours. So drop the RnD , pick a good range of sellable flavours and produce just those flavours at a lower price point.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NewOobY

lol you win, price fixing is real and happens everywhere with everyday products no matter what the reason or cause of said price fixing. This in my mind is price benchmarking, the cause does not matter in this case the outcome does, and the outcome is price fixing, thereby setting a benchmark for others to follow if they want to survive in the market.

A vendor will not choose to make less money, a vendor will always try and maximize profits.
Look I still agree with the sentiments of this topic, #JuicePricesMustFall lets start a movement.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NewOobY

as @Sprint stated, when a vendor makes tons of juices - this take a huge amount of time. If there rate per hour is anywhere near the rate my company charges me out at to our clients then goodness juice is gonna be expensive. Remember yes it costs me R60 to make 30ml again numbers not real, the time it took me 30min @R1200 p/h that equates to R660 for 30ml juice. Even using my mechanics rate would transalte to R260 for 30mls. So I still think juice in SA is cheap.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## oldtimerZA

NewOobY said:


> as @Sprint stated, when a vendor makes tons of juices - this take a huge amount of time. If there rate per hour is anywhere near the rate my company charges me out at to our clients then goodness juice is gonna be expensive. Remember yes it costs me R60 to make 30ml again numbers not real, the time it took me 30min @R1200 p/h that equates to R660 for 30ml juice. Even using my mechanics rate would transalte to R260 for 30mls. So I still think juice in SA is cheap.



That's fine and dandy. But then no one can complain when someone else is willing to make juice for less per hour. If it's taking that long to make juice , then maybe something needs to change in the process used to make the juice.

I mean goodness, it's literally stirring like 10 ingredients together , putting it into a bottle ,waiting 2 weeks and then selling it.
We're not talking whiskey here, we're talking PG, VG, nic and a few food flavours.

If you're loading bottle by hand , then don't complain if someone else is willing to do the same for less...or has found a way to bottle juices for less(automated ).

Work smart not hard.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## method1

It's not always about the lowest price. Look at Apple.
Their innovations have also spawned legions of half-baked imitators.
Cheapest products? No - probably some of the priciest.
And yet one of the most successful and loved brands in the world (and of course also hated by many)

Reactions: Agree 4 | Winner 1 | Can relate 1


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## NewOobY

Perfect example of cheap labor China. nuff said 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rogue zombie

I don't buy unoriginal juice - I only buy a select few local gems. Uniquely developed juices.

And the best recipes in my recipe book are not my own.

I'm a "live and let live" sort of person. But would I sell other people's recipes - no.

I even hate it when I make a meal, and everyone's like "wow.. so good.".... and i used a packet sauce :/ 



Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Funny 4


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## Cespian

NewOobY said:


> as @Sprint stated, when a vendor makes tons of juices - this take a huge amount of time. If there rate per hour is anywhere near the rate my company charges me out at to our clients then goodness juice is gonna be expensive. Remember yes it costs me R60 to make 30ml again numbers not real, the time it took me 30min @R1200 p/h that equates to R660 for 30ml juice. Even using my mechanics rate would transalte to R260 for 30mls. So I still think juice in SA is cheap.



If I may take a different approach to your match:

I highly doubt a big vender would be manufacturing a juice in 30ml bottles and 30 minutes is a little steep unless arthritus or parkinsons or something is in the equation. Lets rather work on batches of 900mls (would result in 30 30ml bottles), and lets say max time to mix from a set recipe is 20 minutes (I believe this is over stated though):

Figures are fictional (I made it up)
----------------------------------
Hourly rate: R1000
Cost of ingredients: R80
Consumables (disposable syringes, gloves, paper towels etc.): R5
Bottle: R10

Cost per 30ml: ((1000 * 0.33) / 30) + 80 + 10 = R101


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## Cespian

method1 said:


> It's not always about the lowest price. Look at Apple.
> Their innovations have also spawned legions of half-baked imitators.
> Cheapest products? No - probably some of the priciest.
> And yet one of the most successful and loved brands in the world (and of course also hated by many)




EXACTLY. You just hit the nail on the head sir. I don't mind spending that premium cost for a juice that is innovative and unique!

(Although I dont believe that Apple is innovated though )


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## oldtimerZA

method1 said:


> It's not always about the lowest price. Look at Apple.
> Their innovations have also spawned legions of half-baked imitators.
> Cheapest products? No - probably some of the priciest.
> And yet one of the most successful and loved brands in the world (and of course also hated by many)



I agree.But:
1)Their products aren't a consumable.
2) They have patents.
3) They have a unique design that works and can't easily be copied.(also because of the nature of the product , requiring highly specialised equipment to manufacture.)

Everything ejuice doesn't have.

quick summary of ejuice market:
- it's dirt cheap to make.
- anyone can make it at home.
- no patents.

So why complain when someone else copies your e-juice flavour?

I don't see sasko bitching because albany makes bread as well using similar recipes.


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## oldtimerZA

Cespian said:


> If I may take a different approach to your match:
> 
> I highly doubt a big vender would be manufacturing a juice in 30ml bottles and 30 minutes is a little steep unless arthritus or parkinsons or something is in the equation. Lets rather work on batches of 900mls (would result in 30 30ml bottles), and lets say max time to mix from a set recipe is 20 minutes (I believe this is over stated though):
> 
> Figures are fictional (I made it up)
> ----------------------------------
> Hourly rate: R1000
> Cost of ingredients: R80
> Consumables (disposable syringes, gloves, paper towels etc.): R5
> Bottle: R10
> 
> Cost per 30ml: ((1000 * 0.33) / 30) + 80 + 10 = R101



Hourly rate of R1000???? Jesus I'm a qualified software engineer and I don't make that in a day of work. let alone an hour. This is where greed and price fixing comes in.


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## Cespian

oldtimerZA said:


> Hourly rate of R1000???? Jesus I'm a qualified software engineer and I don't make that in a day of work. let alone an hour. This is where greed and price fixing comes in.



I specifically said fictional figures...


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## NewOobY

oldtimerZA said:


> Hourly rate of R1000???? Jesus I'm a qualified software engineer and I don't make that in a day of work. let alone an hour. This is where greed and price fixing comes in.



dude some consultants I work with daily have an hourly rate of R1200 per hour, no jokes we use them and make no profit cause that is our rate to the client. It must be said though that they are the best at what they do, hence the reason we use them - we make profit with our juniors though we pay em peanuts and bill the client R1200p/h - SAP project managers make this much too.

To add I know that some exec's charge R10 000 per hour. Imagine if this exec makes juice the juice will be beyond expensive if we use his hourly rate

Reactions: Like 1


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## method1

oldtimerZA said:


> I agree.But:
> 1)Their products aren't a consumable.
> 2) They have patents.
> 3) They have a unique design that works and can't easily be copied.(also because of the nature of the product , requiring highly specialised equipment to manufacture.)
> 
> Everything ejuice doesn't have.
> 
> quick summary of ejuice market:
> - it's dirt cheap to make.
> - anyone can make it at home.
> - no patents.
> 
> So why complain when someone else copies your e-juice flavour?
> 
> I don't see sasko bitching because albany makes bread as well using similar recipes.



I think we're talking about different things - but sure, anyone can join the race to the bottom with cheaply made, derivative products, and there will still be a market for it.

You can get Absolut or Russian Bear based on your preference of taste and cost per ml to get sloshed


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## oldtimerZA

Cespian said:


> I specifically said fictional figures...


yeah and even with those fictional figures you came to a lower number than the actual price of ejuice.

R50 - R100 per hour seems more like it. say you make 1L an hour(if not more , this is easily achievable).
and it costs R15 for the ingredients.(including bottle and label) per bottle then it's costing:

R100 per hour for 1L.
1L makes 33 bottles @ 30ml per bottle.
so labor costs R1.5 per bottle.
R15 + R1.5 per bottle 30ml. 

Add shipping of about R1-2 per bottle (if not less) and we get:

R17.5 per bottle to make. 
Add a profit margin of double: 
R35 per bottle.
Add store mark up of double:
R70 bottle of 30ml.

Half the current cost( and thats with grossly exaggerated estimates, it's probably faaarr less).

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Cespian

oldtimerZA said:


> yeah and even with those fictional figures you came to a lower number than the actual price of ejuice.
> 
> R50 - R100 per hour seems more like it. say you make 1L an hour(if not more , this is easily achievable).
> and it costs R15 for the ingredients.(including bottle and label) per bottle then it's costing:
> 
> R100 per hour for 1L.
> 1L makes 33 bottles @ 30ml per bottle.
> so labor costs R1.5 per bottle.
> R15 + R1.5 per bottle 30ml.
> 
> Add shipping of about R1-2 per bottle (if not less) and we get:
> 
> R17.5 per bottle to make.
> Add a profit margin of double:
> R35 per bottle.
> Add store mark up of double:
> R70 bottle of 30ml.
> 
> Half the current cost( and thats with grossly exaggerated estimates, it's probably faaarr less).



Dude, I did not create this thread to question nor discuss the cost to make e-juice nor will I comment on the time and effort it takes to mass produce e-juice. There exists a benchmarked price and I am unhappy about these fly-by-night juice makers selling clones at the same rate as our venders who are truly making spectular innovative juice after putting in a whole lot of effort to develop it, and flooding the market.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## NewOobY

i was also gonna say sorry for side tracking the thread


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## oldtimerZA

Yeah I did derail this thread. Only because I'm so frustrated with Ejuice makers price locking.
My apologies. no more from me.


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## Vapington

My flavouring is more than that per bottle


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## method1

oldtimerZA said:


> Okay so lets say t costs R20 in ingredients.(R11 bottle, R7 PG,VG,nic,flavour R3 label).
> 
> Thats still
> R21.50 cost to you.
> R45 sold to store.
> R90 in store price.
> Still R60 less than current cost.



This doesn't factor in development time, R&D etc.
Similarly, why can't you buy an iphone or a mercedes or a bottle of Absolut for the cost of materials alone?

Reactions: Like 1


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## oldtimerZA

method1 said:


> This doesn't factor in development time, R&D etc.
> Similarly, why can't you buy an iphone or a mercedes for the cost of materials alone?



We can start a seperate thread to dicuss this.


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## Mike

Sounds like the words of a pirate... I guess we're discussing juice piracy here anyway.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## oldtimerZA

Mike said:


> Sounds like the words of a pirate... I guess we're discussing juice piracy here anyway.


It's not piracy if it's not patented/copyrighted.


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## NewOobY

this is a good Chinese Range Rover Clone

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## method1

oldtimerZA said:


> We can start a seperate thread to dicuss this.



Yes, we probably could 

I think I get where you're coming from, but just know there are people in the business that take this work very seriously, aren't profiteering scumbags & take pride in their work.

As for ejuice recipes being "patentable" - in other industries recipes ARE patentable - look at coca cola. (actually I just double checked and it's not patented - it's just top secret) - but there are patented recipes in other markets.

Current innovators in this new market space are simply waiting for laws to catch up


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## oldtimerZA

method1 said:


> Yes, we probably could
> 
> I think I get where you're coming from, but just know there are people in the business that take this work very seriously, aren't profiteering scumbags & take pride in their work.
> 
> As for ejuice recipes being "patentable" - in other industries recipes ARE patentable - look at coca cola. (actually I just double checked and it's not patented - it's just top secret) - but there are patented recipes in other markets.
> 
> Current innovators in this new market space are simply waiting for laws to catch up



I'm not saying they are, I'm merely stating that moaning about vendors copying recipes and reselling isn't going to solve anything as it's a free market.

*snip*


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## method1

oldtimerZA said:


> Coca cola doesn't have a patent. They keep their recipe a secret.
> 
> more importantly :
> http://www.uspto.gov/custom-page/inventors-eye-advice-1
> 
> A food product has to be "nonobvious" and "novel" to be patented.
> I thoroughly believe ejuice to be neither "nonobvious" nor "novel".
> requiring no special processes that can't be achieved by anyone at home.
> 
> I'm going to patent mixing food flavouring with PG,VG and nicotine...



I edited my post above to reflect that before you replied.
There are specialised process in the business as well, I'm not implying that everyone utilises them but I suggest you do a little bit more research.
It seems to me we have to agree to disagree, if this was as easy as you suggest every juice would be awesome. Simply not the case.

EDIT:

And if you truly feel ripped off, DIY is the way to go. I think most, if not all DIYers have at least had the hands on experience to know that the minority of online recipes are any good, and that there are a few SKILLED individuals who distinguish themselves. I believe these people deserve reward & credit for their abilities,

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## oldtimerZA

method1 said:


> I edited my post above to reflect that before you replied.
> There are specialised process in the business as well, I'm not implying that everyone utilises them but I suggest you do a little bit more research.
> It seems to me we have to agree to disagree, if this was as easy as you suggest every juice would be awesome. Simply not the case.



Granted that is true.
But if those processes weren't obvious then the juices wouldn't be easy to copy(or figure out how to copy) and we wouldn't be discussing this.


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## method1

oldtimerZA said:


> Granted that is true.
> But if those processes weren't obvious then the juices wouldn't be easy to copy(or figure out how to copy) and we wouldn't be discussing this.



Actually the OP is talking about using online recipes - known as clones, the vast majority of which are not true or equal representations of the original.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## oldtimerZA

method1 said:


> Actually the OP is talking about using online recipes - known as clones, the vast majority of which are not true or equal representations of the original.



So then what's the problem? 
If they're not 1-1 copies of the ejuice then it shows that the vendors product is over engineered and the people would be willing to make a sacrifice on quality for cost saving. Then they're not buying a "copy" they're buying a different , but very similar, product.


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## method1

oldtimerZA said:


> So then what's the problem?
> If they're not 1-1 copies of the ejuice then it shows that the vendors product is over engineered and the people would be willing to make a sacrifice on quality for cost saving. Then they're not buying a "copy" they're buying a different , but very similar, product.



I believe the OP outlined his problems in the OP. And I tend to agree


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## Rob Fisher

I knew this would be a contentious issue and I'm glad people are discussing the issue without getting personal... my stand has always been that I hate the fact that cloners clone and I think it's stealing. I'm also glad that despite many attempts my ADV hasn't been cloned and no one has ever come close to cloning it!

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## oldtimerZA

Rob Fisher said:


> I knew this would be a contentious issue and I'm glad people are discussing the issue without getting personal... my stand has always been that I hate the fact that cloners clone and I think it's stealing. I'm also glad that despite many attempts my ADV hasn't been cloned and no one has ever come close to cloning it!


Exactly, right there is a secret recipe. One good way to protect the juice from being cloned.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## rogue zombie

NewOobY said:


> this is a good Chinese Range Rover Clone
> View attachment 47168


Lmao

Wait, is Land Wind not the original? 

Imagine what a toffee you'd feel like in that when the Evoque pulls up next to you.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Cespian

I have made plen


rogue zombie said:


> Lmao
> 
> Wait, is Land Wind not the original?
> 
> Imagine what a toffee you'd feel like in that when the Evoque pulls up next to you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



The worst part is that the name doesn't even make any sense... I mean, what on earth is Land Wind - Wind is moving air, so is land wind moving land... This deserves its own thread lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## blujeenz

Cespian said:


> Firstly, I wasn't certain where to put this thread. Secondly, this is probably just my unpopular opinion and I know I am probably going to get a lot of crap for this but I believe it needs to be put out there.
> 
> ==BEGIN RANT==
> blahblah~~~~~~~ fishpaste fishpaste
> ==END OF RANT==



This would have fitted in just fine in the off topic thread "Musings" --->http://www.ecigssa.co.za/musings-philosophical-or-commonplace.t20009/

which incidently, I started for just this kind of thing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cespian

blujeenz said:


> This would have fitted in just fine in the off topic thread "Musings" --->http://www.ecigssa.co.za/musings-philosophical-or-commonplace.t20009/
> 
> which incidently, I started for just this kind of thing.



I expected this topic to gather some steam hence rather dedicating its own space

Reactions: Like 1


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## blujeenz

Cespian said:


> I expected this topic to gather some steam hence rather dedicating its own space


I hear you, it seemed more a question of ethics than "who has stock".
I agree, its bad form to showboat on somebody else's hard work and charge their price, clones should always be cheaper, thats if the individual is content with intellectual theft.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Imthiaz Khan

All you have to do is remove or change the badges on the landy windy then you sorted


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## Vapington

Imthiaz Khan said:


> All you have to do is remove or change the badges on the landy windy then you sorted


Just debadge and say it is the facelift

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ezekiel

With aaaaaalll being said (incl. Landwings and Mapple pPhones), I don't think there is too much to be concerned about. There definitely is a market for both great originals, and good quality clones (eg, clone juices made properly). 

The majority of juices which have garnered popularity on this forum have been originals. I hope the sales generally reflect this.

Juice makers who cannot come up with a few decent recipes on their own have to get people interested in their line in different ways - whether it is pricing, marketing, packaging or whatnot. Which is really a skill on its own as well. And while many of us have specific ADV's we keep ordering/making, most of us are still intrigued by a new, original juice hitting the shelves. Ergo, there is a market for both clones and originals in this country (at least at the moment).

I have a buddy who almost refuses to pay more than R80 for a bottle of juice. He is ok with vaping poor quality stuff - but every now and then he'll buy a special bottle of premium juice which he savours. I would guess it is the same for many people here, in terms of clones and originals. Many people buy clones (usually a specific brand), but every now and then will buy something out of their normal profile, which is 10-to-1 an original. Whether this new acquisition will become a re-order will be case-to-case dependent.

Finally, while the larger market might not care about these things, many of us do take into account the human spirit. For instance, I was a bit worried when I originally noticed that @method1 was brining out a Rhodonite clone. However, since this was done in a) collaboration with DIYorDIe, and b) clearly stated in this manner, I applaud him and his juice line - and will re-order, even though I can make a (sub-par) Rhodonite myself. Since the vaping community in SA is generally still a smallish crowd, supply and demand is not yet the defining rules of the market. I mean, you meet some of the mixers, you chat to vendors, you taste a few juices with a buddy, you read all of @Rob Fisher 's comments... all of these factors combine when you make the decision to buy a specific juice. In this regard our industry is similar to the wine industry - even though there are many bottles of the same thing available, the situation when you taste a wine for the first time has a very big influence on what you buy next. Whether it was at a tasting, or at a braai, or with a good friend - all of these factor in when buying a bottle of wine, with taste and price occasionally playing a smaller role.

TL;DR: I believe (despite some previous posts) that there is more than enough of a market for clones as well as originals to thrive here. Maybe different pricing options will eventually emerge in the market to reflect the effort mixologists spend to develop a new juice.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## method1

Ezekiel said:


> I was a bit worried when I originally noticed that @method1 was brining out a Rhodonite clone. However, since this was done in a) collaboration with DIYorDIe, and b) clearly stated in this manner, I applaud him and his juice line - and will re-order, even though I can make a (sub-par) Rhodonite myself.



My existing line is in partnership with Wayne, therefore not a clone, it's the OG real deal.
A clone would be using one of those recipes, changing something a little (or not) and then claiming originality as the cherry on top 
That's the issue the OP brought up.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Ezekiel

method1 said:


> My existing line is in partnership with Wayne, therefore not a clone, it's the OG real deal.
> A clone would be using one of those recipes, changing something a little (or not) and then claiming originality as the cherry on top
> That's the issue the OP brought up.



My apologies @method1, I then misunderstood the original wording when you announced Smackaroon! Sorry about that! Regardless, the fact that you are open that you collaborated is what I applaud. I'm just as sick and tired of juice-lines claiming originality when there is practically none!

Reactions: Like 1 | Can relate 1


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## NewOobY

now speaking of clones any good peaches and cream/custard clones I can try -> Just kidding. Got my new batch of DIY concentrates that came today happiness, sadness still waiting for my Peanut Butter though


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## Gazzacpt

Ok I've just read through this thread and feel I should weigh in but so much has been covered. 
Lets start with clone juice. Most of the recipes on line are not exact clones but someone liked the original enough to try and get a similar taste without paying stupid money and are happy with the taste they created. Eg. 5p Gambit, its apple pie but since 5p made it famous people say hey taste my gambit clone, which is their variation on a apple pie recipe. Without knowing the original ingredients or mixing method its very hard to actually clone. The closest you going to get is something similar. This is not cloning in my book.
Next strawberry milkshake is a very popular flavour. If you as a juice maker do not have a strawberry something in your line up you missing a large chunk of your market. Now how many variations of strawberry milk can you really have. Again not cloning in my book. 
If you are a juice maker and just mix up a recipe you found on the net and sell it as your own its a bit dishonest but tweak it a bit and alter to taste for your market is that cloning?

On the cost issue that was raised. I know some of these manufacturers had to make a heavy investment to get ingredients in. High quality VG, PG and nic. Some labs only deal in wholesale quantity and nic needs importing. Try getting quality nic into the country by the litre of 100mg/ml legally. Flavour bottles by the litre. Mass mixing equipment and facilities. If you serious about a juice line setting up is a massive outlay. So R120 - 160 per 30ml bottle is quite a reasonable price. If you want cheaper juice then diy. I've gone that route and its alot of work and hit and miss. While learning my cost per 30ml was sometimes R200 because of mistakes and unvapable mixes. 
The manufacturer carries risk so needs to charge for it plain and simple.

Anywhoo my 2c.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## rogue zombie

@Gazzacpt you make loads of valid points, to which I agree.

But as you touched on - I would just elaborate a bit

I think from the juice makers that sell their stuff, it's particularly annoying that they spend time, effort and money developing flavours. Whereas some just grab a recipe found online and call it their own.

I've noticed with internet famous folk that come up with great recipes, for example. At the end of the day all they actually want is recognition. That it's THEIR recipe.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 4


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## WARMACHINE

With this industry been relatively young it is the Wild West. No regulation, no standards...there is really nothing, other than forums and the interweb. It is a catch 22 situation. Soon as regulation (and the following taxes) are introduced cloners may struggle to keep up with the increased costs and PT to produce and distribute product, and the end product for us consumers will be more expensive. 

Regulation can be good, look at the food industry. I want ingredient lists on a product, I want standards certification, and I am prepared to pay the extra costs for my health and piece of mind. 

I regularly travel to China, and cloning is normal business practice. the Chinese will copy anything, even other Chinese products/manufacturers. Innovation is not really encouraged, but rather mass production. The only companies I have come across that are different tend to supply product to the US and particular Europe, in regulated industries where standards are enforced. When this happens, it is amazing. The product is high quality, reasonable cost and starts showing innovation. Once again regulation and standards have made a difference.

Cloning international juices and claiming the copy as your own creation, not sure how you could ever regulate that. This happens in other food based industries, even the alcohol industry. 

We need to self-regulate as a community, and frown upon cloning recipes. 

@Cespian is there any reason these vendors are not been mentioned ?


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## rogue zombie

@WARMACHINE as far as I can understand it, recipes could never be regulated. 

Unless they were copyrighted or something.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Cespian

@Gazzacpt I understand what you are saying and I agree with you to an extent. I think my rant might have been unclear. What I was ranting about are the fly by night guys using recipes found on the web, using it as is and selling it. Yes, making something similar to an existing flavour makes absolute sense because of popularity and greater possibility of sales (my lemon creams as an example that Rob likes so much is based on Looper however different because I created my own recipe. I have made original looper clones as well and I can taste the difference). 

@WARMACHINE I will never name and shame anybody, especially on a public forum because it is unethical. What these "venders" are doing is not wrong, I am just of the OPINION that its THEFT taking a recipe from someone who just wanted to share a recipe, and rape an opportunity, where there are true mixologists putting in crap loads of effort making innovative juices or juices similar to existing ones and charging the same price as the thieves. (Apologies if I sound like an extremist)

Reactions: Like 2


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## Duffie12

For what it's worth here's my 2c, not everyone can or is willing or has the time to DIY properly. So while there are only so many ways one can personalise "strawberries and cream" or heck even just plain "strawberry" there is a market and a need for it.

Obviously if one claims a recipe is their own creation (and it is isn't) then they're lying, but by the same token no one claims that their local pizza place is a sham because they too also sell ham and mushrooms Regina pizzas.


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## Christos

Guys, I'm all for making money but if I ever get my shit together and market a good recipe I guarantee I'll drop the recipe here. I totally believe 90% of the market will buy it instead is diy'ING it. 
Just saying.

Reactions: Like 2


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## kyle_redbull

Why can't we name and shame these vendors and their products we do it with other products we purchase on a daily basis if they not up to standard this way we expose the weeds and maybe that way things will change 

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


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## whatalotigot

I agree with this. But unfortunately the flavor profiles that are said 'cloned' are popular. Looper , strawberry ice cream etc. 

Again it's up to a store or vendor to not stock straight out 'CLONED' juices straight from the net. Just out of respect to the creators of the juice, and the risk factor. As for these guys selling from cars. I think it's a risk of the buyer to buy this sort of thing rather then buying a reputable juice brand. 

It's a sticky situation, You really will never know how that juice was mixed. I just don't want anyone getting hurt or something going wrong because of some youngster mixing and cross contaminating. I agree, there needs to be some regulation when it comes to this. 

Just remember that most, if not ALL juice companies started by mixing juice at home and building from there responsibly. This freedom is the reason SA vaping has grown to where it is now. That's just my 2cents

Reactions: Like 1


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## rogue zombie

whatalotigot said:


> I agree with this. But unfortunately the flavor profiles that are said 'cloned' are popular. Looper , strawberry ice cream etc.
> 
> Again it's up to a store or vendor to not stock straight out 'CLONED' juices straight from the net. Just out of respect to the creators of the juice, and the risk factor. As for these guys selling from cars. I think it's a risk of the buyer to buy this sort of thing rather then buying a reputable juice brand.
> 
> It's a sticky situation, You really will never know how that juice was mixed. I just don't want anyone getting hurt or something going wrong because of some youngster mixing and cross contaminating. I agree, there needs to be some regulation when it comes to this.
> 
> Just remember that most, if not ALL juice companies started by mixing juice at home and building from there responsibly. This freedom is the reason SA vaping has grown to where it is now. That's just my 2cents


Ya it's a big grey area.

I mean technically I could follow a recipe I found online, that was not intended for commercial use, add a drop of lime and 2 of a different strawberry... and call it my own.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## whatalotigot

rogue zombie said:


> Ya it's a big grey area.
> 
> I mean technically I could follow a recipe I found online, that was not intended for commercial use, add a drop of lime and 2 of a different strawberry... and call it my own.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


This is true and there isnt really a problem tweaking recipes. Its more about how the juice is made. And in what enviroment that is more the issue. Made in a lab or made in the kitchen. Thats the difference. 

I do want to start checking out certain juice makers "mixing" areas, just to know what kind of health risks they might face. And i think thats a responsibility all vendors or suppliers should start taking into their own hands!


Sent from Foggas using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Raithlin

whatalotigot said:


> This is true and there isnt really a problem tweaking recipes. Its more about how the juice is made. And in what enviroment that is more the issue. Made in a lab or made in the kitchen. Thats the difference.
> 
> I do want to start checking out certain juice makers "mixing" areas, just to know what kind of health risks they might face. And i think thats a responsibility all vendors or suppliers should start taking into their own hands!
> 
> 
> Sent from Foggas using Tapatalk



Valid points all. I have personally seen the mixing areas of all the juice brands we stock.. but not everyone has that luxury. Some vendors are across the world, if not the country.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## stevie g

whatalotigot said:


> This is true and there isnt really a problem tweaking recipes. Its more about how the juice is made. And in what enviroment that is more the issue. Made in a lab or made in the kitchen. Thats the difference.
> 
> I do want to start checking out certain juice makers "mixing" areas, just to know what kind of health risks they might face. And i think thats a responsibility all vendors or suppliers should start taking into their own hands!
> 
> 
> Sent from Foggas using Tapatalk



I work for a large flavor company and their "labs" are like kitchens.

A room setup to be a dedicated "mixing kitchen" that is vacuumed or otherwise cleaned daily is the equivalent.

I would he horrified to hear of someone mixing in a garage unless it was Ironman's garage .


I've worked in a pie factory and they are NOT cleaner than a mixing room but we don't vaporise pies so there is always that to be thankful for.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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