# Strange Kanthal corrosion



## Smokyg (22/9/14)

I have been noticing my kanthal doing this weird blue corrosion even when just firing it before it has seen any juice, and after a weeks vaping and then a dry burn the blue comes back and those blue pieces falls off causing the coil wires to thin out and creating serious hotspots. 

Im getting quite concerned. Might the Kanthal be of lower grade? 

Below is a pic of a coil i just rolled and fired. It hasn't seen any juice yet.


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## annemarievdh (22/9/14)

That's weard!!!


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## RevnLucky7 (22/9/14)

I've seen that before... 
Looks like death. 
Read any Discworld novels? 

Sure that's Kanthal? Or Kanthrax?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Andre (22/9/14)

Have never seen anything like that before. Cannot be healthy. Where did you get the wire from?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Smokyg (22/9/14)

Andre said:


> Have never seen anything like that before. Cannot be healthy. Where did you get the wire from?


Won it at the jhb vape meet.

Perhaps im firing it to hot so it starts to oxidise?


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## Smokyg (22/9/14)

Smokyg said:


> Won it at the jhb vape meet.
> 
> Perhaps im firing it to hot so it starts to oxidise?


Im not really a expert in metals and how they react to heat, but i cant really find anything on the web about kanthal oxidising or corroding.. This is super weird.


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## Danny (22/9/14)

I would stop vaping on that. Kanthal from my limited understanding should really not deteriorate rapidly at all used in our applications. An idea of how tough the stuff should be.... It has a melting point of 1200 degrees centigrade! I have wrapped quite a few coils and ran a few for well over a month. I chucked them but they still looked like they did when I wrapped them, only thing that changed was they seemed to lose heat capacity.


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## Smokyg (22/9/14)

Danny said:


> I would stop vaping on that. Kanthal from my limited understanding should really not deteriorate rapidly at all used in our applications. An idea of how tough the stuff should be.... It has a melting point of 1200 degrees centigrade! I have wrapped quite a few coils and ran a few for well over a month. I chucked them but they still looked like they did when I wrapped them, only thing that changed was they seemed to lose heat capacity.


 
I have had no issues with my kanthal up until now. Im going to try a few tests to see if it is the extreme heat of the 0.2 ohm coil thats causing the rapid degradation of the wire. 

This didnt seem to happen with colder coils. So my conclusion thus far Extreme Heat = Nasty blue stuff.


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## Danny (22/9/14)

Smokyg said:


> I have had no issues with my kanthal up until now. Im going to try a few tests to see if it is the extreme heat of the 0.2 ohm coil thats causing the rapid degradation of the wire.
> 
> This didnt seem to happen with colder coils. So my conclusion thus far Extreme Heat = Nasty blue stuff.



You should experiment if you think it will help. Kanthal does form aluminum oxide on its exterior when heated. It should not deteriorate as you have described as a result of this though. I dont think even a 0.2 ohm coil is going to produce enough heat to significantly impact the overall structural integrity of a substance like Kanthal. Maybe a physics/chem person will have some input.


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## Rowan Francis (22/9/14)

that blue corosion looks like a copper deposit , check to see if there is any copper in contact with the kanthal . ie . something that is copper and was plated but now the copper has come thru and is touching the kanthal , like screws or posts .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Derick (22/9/14)

From what I've read, Kanthal will only start to oxidize at very, very high temperatures - i.e 1300C
http://kanthal.com/en/products/material-datasheets/wire/na/kanthal-apmt/ (search for "flake")

I doubt you are getting to those temps with your setup, seeing as VG and PG only need around 200C - 300C to vapourise, at 1300C you would be burning it and it would taste like crap (i.e. you would be creating acrolein , not PG and VG vapour)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Smokyg (22/9/14)

Rowan Francis said:


> that blue corosion looks like a copper deposit , check to see if there is any copper in contact with the kanthal . ie . something that is copper and was plated but now the copper has come thru and is touching the kanthal , like screws or posts .



That sounds like a reasonable explanation. My igo l consists of brass posts and i replaced the screws with bigger headed stainless screws.
No copper anywhere close sadly.


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## Rowan Francis (22/9/14)

Smokyg said:


> That sounds like a reasonable explanation. My igo l consists of brass posts and i replaced the screws with bigger headed stainless screws.
> No copper anywhere close sadly.


 
maybe , but i would say maybe the washers or something else has copper somewhere , the stainless srews might have plating on them ?? file one and check .


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## Andre (22/9/14)

Best I could find on ECF

_Yep... Kanthal wears out. When heated, Kanthal wire (iron-chromium-aluminum) builds up an aluminum oxide thermally conductive coating on it's outside surface that protects the individual coils from shorting, one to another. This is called alumina (Al2O3).
Once the aluminum content diminishes to the point where that oxidation resistant, electrically resistive alumina layer isn't produced... all that remains is iron and chromium oxide. 
Exposure & contamination degradation, inconsistent heating, increased resistance and ultimate wire failure aren't far behind. Chances are, you'll see the blackened, pitted wire or perhaps even taste the iron, long before that failure occurs._
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...4216-question-about-kanthal.html#post13700531
EDIT: But I do not think that is what is happening here. Maybe that is not good Kanthal wire.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## Matt (22/9/14)

I had the same with the kanthal I bought from vapemob. Used different kanthal in the same setup and it didnt happen again.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Thanks 1 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1


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## Imthiaz Khan (22/9/14)

@Smokyg, hope you get this issue sorted out asap! Vape safe bud

Reactions: Like 1


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## Smokyg (22/9/14)

Matt said:


> I had the same with the kanthal I bought from vapemob. Used different kanthal in the same setup and it didnt happen again.


Thanks! Yeah i think that maybe they have been supplied a lower grade kanthal, perhaps D. I know when i enquired from a bulk importer, thay told me that they only supply Kanthal D. Perhaps this has now trickled down to us. Either way, we should insist on A1 only.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Danny (22/9/14)

I did a bit more reading, also came across this thread where some people are discussing what happens to kanthal over time (http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...thal-over-time-intense-heat-production-2.html) not all of it relevant but they surmise it quite nicely. 
The alumina (oxide of aluminium) that forms on kanthal when we heat it is what allows us to build contact coils without shorts  Eventually the oxidating process would cause your kanthal coil to degenerate, but not that quickly, for 28g and below I would guesstimate weeks to months. Definitely not on first fire.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RevnLucky7 (22/9/14)

Boet, only test you should be doing with that wire is how fast you can get all of it in a bin. Whatever is happening there does not look good and most importantly not healthy. 

I wouldn't even bother putting it through tests... 

I run Kanthal as hot as any device allows me too and I've never seen that before. 

Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 4


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## TylerD (22/9/14)

Not cool man. Just get some net wire man. So sad that we get these sub par stuff here! Batteries and now bloody Kanthal. What's next!

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ET (22/9/14)

could just be one small section of faulty wire. make another coil exactly the same and see if it still does it

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Gizmo (23/9/14)

I highly doubt its bad kanthal. Kanthal is kanthal in my opinion. I haven't had that happen to me but I am sure its related to the atty itself and the kanthal, like Rowan said.

Assuming, If you could get kanthal of such a poor grade, then every single cheap toaster would have little particles of metal on your bread.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Smokyg (23/9/14)

Just built a new coil and dry fired it a few times and al presto.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alex (23/9/14)

Smokyg said:


> Just built a new coil and dry fired it a few times and al presto.




The only thing I can think to ask is this: Where are you storing the Kanthal?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Smokyg (23/9/14)

Alex said:


> The only thing I can think to ask is this: Where are you storing the Kanthal?


In my desk drawer together with my screw drivers and coil wrapping tools.


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## kimbo (23/9/14)

Smokyg said:


> In my desk drawer together with my screw drivers and coil wrapping tools.


 
@Smokyg 

I have no idea what you have there, i just want to know does the coil disintegrate if you keep on dry burning it?


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## Smokyg (23/9/14)

kimbo said:


> @Smokyg
> 
> I have no idea what you have there, i just want to know does the coil disintegrate if you keep on dry burning it?


 
Yip yip. I started noticing when i rewic and clean out my dripper, i dry burn the coil to get the gunk and old juice off and then this blue started to happen. Didnt think much of it. Then it happened again and again and again. Tested with my 24G, 28 and 32 and no problem, only my 26G that does it.


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## Alex (23/9/14)

Smokyg said:


> In my desk drawer together with my screw drivers and coil wrapping tools.


 
Okay I would suggest chucking it, and getting some new stock. I have never experienced that.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## kimbo (23/9/14)

Smokyg said:


> Yip yip. I started noticing when i rewic and clean out my dripper, i dry burn the coil to get the gunk and old juice off and then this blue started to happen. Didnt think much of it. Then it happened again and again and again. Tested with my 24G, 28 and 32 and no problem, only my 26G that does it.


 
Does this happen if you put an open flame to it or just pass a high current through it?


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## Andre (23/9/14)

Smokyg said:


> Yip yip. I started noticing when i rewic and clean out my dripper, i dry burn the coil to get the gunk and old juice off and then this blue started to happen. Didnt think much of it. Then it happened again and again and again. Tested with my 24G, 28 and 32 and no problem, only my 26G that does it.


Seems to me your 26g is substandard - I would chuck it as @Alex suggests.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## kimbo (23/9/14)

From the kantal PDF

Corrosion Resistance
Corrosive or potentially corrosive consti-
tuents can considerably shorten wire life.
Perspiring hands, mounting or supporting
materials or contamination can cause corro-
sion

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Yiannaki (23/9/14)

I have never seen anything like this before! 

Looks like very dodgy kanthal.

I would chuck that 26g right out. ASAP

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Smokyg (23/9/14)

kimbo said:


> Does this happen if you put an open flame to it or just pass a high current through it?


Torch does nothing to it, but then again the torch cant get it close to as hot as it does when its fired on the mod..


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## Andre (23/9/14)

@Smokyg, your other gauge wire is stored in the same place and handled in the same way as the 26g?


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## Smokyg (23/9/14)

Andre said:


> @Smokyg, your other gauge wire is stored in the same place and handled in the same way as the 26g?


Exactly the same


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## Andre (23/9/14)

Smokyg said:


> Exactly the same


Then, imo all evidence points to that wire being not up to scratch.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## kimbo (23/9/14)

@Smokyg I agree with @Andre rather get rid of it. I am just wondering why this happen so that we can prevent the same thing in the future


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## Reinhardt (23/9/14)

I have also used @Smokyg 's 26 gauge Kanthal to build coils as the 26 gauge I bought was in actual fact 28 gauge Kanthal. @Smokyg used an IgoL, IgoW and his mini erd, same result on all of them. I have tried it in my 3D, Kayfun and Stillair, same result. I have also fired it on the SVD that is not as powerfull as a mec mod and it also does the same. The only explanation to this is that it is sub par Kanthal. 
I refused to vape with it! Well it is actually not even possible to vape with it as it literately falls apart! Really disappointing


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## Smokyg (23/9/14)

Andre said:


> Then, imo all evidence points to that wire being not up to scratch.


Agreed, i must say that i have used quite a bit of the kanthal off of the spool and the first 20 or so coils were fine. Perhaps humidity in the office affected it or the fact that i handle that spool much more that i do the 24 or 28g. 

I just found this whole experience strange and thought i would share it and get some opinions.  And hoped someone knew metals enough to know what was happening..


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## kimbo (23/9/14)

@Smokyg this is Kanthal A1?

Not Kanthal D

You say the first part of the spool was ok. Did you make the same coils from it or did you go down in resistance now?

The A1 will handle more heat than the D, so i am just asking


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## Andre (23/9/14)

Smokyg said:


> Agreed, i must say that i have used quite a bit of the kanthal off of the spool and the first 20 or so coils were fine. Perhaps humidity in the office affected it or the fact that i handle that spool much more that i do the 24 or 28g.
> 
> I just found this whole experience strange and thought i would share it and get some opinions.  And hoped someone knew metals enough to know what was happening..


Why do you not send a picture and description to Kanthal, asking them? http://www.kanthal.com/en/contact-us/


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## Yiannaki (23/9/14)

If only we had a Metallurgical engineer on the forum!

Reactions: Winner 1


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## kimbo (23/9/14)

From the color heat gauge thingie in the Kanthal PDF, it looks like you are pushing borderline Kanthal D disintegrating point. That is why i am asking. I am not knowledgeable in this so i might be way of

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Smokyg (23/9/14)

kimbo said:


> From the color heat gauge thingie in the Kanthal PDF, it looks like you are pushing borderline Kanthal D disintegrating point. That is why i am asking. I am not knowledgeable in this so i might be way of


That does seem right... If the chart shows actual color of the coil when fired... Then this makes lots of sense then  Thanks @kimbo

Reactions: Like 1


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## Reinhardt (23/9/14)

Smokyg said:


> That does seem right... If the chart shows actual color of the coil when fired... Then this makes lots of sense then  Thanks @kimbo


Seems like we have our answer. Being supplied with Kanthal D

Awesome!

Thanks @kimbo

Reactions: Like 1


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## Smokyg (23/9/14)

Seems like we might have figured it out then  

Conclusion :

1. Dont fire your coils to their limit when dry burning.
2. Wrap higher ohm coils so they cant go hotter than the wire's "FU" point.
3. Use nichrome

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yiannaki (23/9/14)

good job @kimbo !!

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Andre (23/9/14)

Kanthal D continuous operating temperature - 1200°C
Kanthal A1 continuous operating temperature - 1400°C

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Smokyg (23/9/14)

Andre said:


> Kanthal D continuous operating temperature - 1200°C
> Kanthal A1 continuous operating temperature - 1400°C


So essentially Kanthal D would be perfect for day to day vaping, no issue, its perfect. Its when you really go all out A1 is the way to go.

Thus for us serious sub ohmers building 0.2 and considering that to be high we need A1. Currently i vary my coils between 0.14 ohm and 0.3 Max... 

Perhaps i should settle down with my builds... But damn its such a awesome hot vape man...


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## Andre (23/9/14)

Smokyg said:


> So essentially Kanthal D would be perfect for day to day vaping, no issue, its perfect. Its when you really go all out A1 is the way to go.
> 
> Thus for us serious sub ohmers building 0.2 and considering that to be high we need A1. Currently i vary my coils between 0.14 ohm and 0.3 Max...
> 
> Perhaps i should settle down with my builds... But damn its such a awesome hot vape man...


I have never used anything other than A1 - it is cheap enough. And I do around 5 second pulses when dry burning.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Mike (23/9/14)

IMO it's not worth using lower gauge Kanthal D either way if that's what can happen to it. I mean what are you saving, a couple of bucks?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Alex (23/9/14)

Smokyg said:


> So essentially Kanthal D would be perfect for day to day vaping, no issue, its perfect. Its when you really go all out A1 is the way to go.
> 
> Thus for us serious sub ohmers building 0.2 and considering that to be high we need A1. Currently i vary my coils between 0.14 ohm and 0.3 Max...
> 
> Perhaps i should settle down with my builds... But damn its such a awesome hot vape man...


 
You can probably get all the info you could ever need from here.
http://www.industrialalloys.co.za/contact.html

And they are even right here in Benoni.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Rowan Francis (23/9/14)

mr @Smokyg , please can you do a test for me , get some croc clicps and wire and wire up a short piece of this kanthal no atty or anything and see what happens with you power it up for a few seconds ..


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