# Diacetyl, Acetoin, And Acetyl Propionyl: The Dairy, Creamy Flavours.



## MarkK (6/7/14)

Caution: flavourings

Food-grade flavouring compounds are, by definition, not tested for inhalation. There are likely to be health implications resulting from inhalation of some flavours, and right now we do not have a complete list of the problematic ones. At least one is known to be extremely hazardous to the lungs (diacetyl) and there is no reason to suspect it is an isolated case. Because too little is known about this aspect of vaping, ECF cannot advise you in detail on this issue; but we do know that as well as butter-popcorn the creamy, buttery, custard-type flavours will probably entail risk even if diacetyl itself is absent (because this group of flavours has a question mark regarding safety).
This flavour group includes diacetyl, acetoin, and acetyl propionyl: the dairy, creamy flavours. Realistically, we do not know if there are any safe flavours for inhalation in this group.

Reactions: Informative 3


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## Silver (6/7/14)

Thanks for the post @MarkK
I think we should all keep an eye on these things. If we are now vaping to do something healthier than smoking, we may as well stay away from things that have too many questionmarks regarding safety.

Would be interesting if our local juice manufacturers could recap here which of their flavours contain the suspicious components.

@Gizmo, @Stroodlepuff
@Oupa
@Derick
@Mow@CraftVapour
@Just B 

Apologies if I've left anyone out, these were the ones that came to mind when i was typing the post


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## Derick (6/7/14)

The last time this topic came up, all the vendors at the time stated that they do not use Diacetyl in any of their flavours - I actually think that nobody does anymore.

Important to realize however is that firstly, Diacetyl is used in microwave popcorn. So that nice buttery smell you get when nuking your popcorn is Diacetyl - at that point you and your whole family is inhaling massive amounts of Diacetyl - orders of magnitude more than the (less than 1%) flavouring in those old e-liquids. Anybody get popcorn lung yet from that?

Also, factory workers that have been diagnosed with popcorn lung, work with pure concentrations of Diacetyl for 8 hours a day, inhaling pure diacetyl in massive concentrations for decades before they contract the disease.

Does anybody really think that that 3ml or so they vape a day (that contains trace amounts of Diacetyl) is going to give you popcorn lung?

But it is up to you to do your own research, ask your e-liquid supplier if they use it and make your own informed decision - but personally I feel it is like avoiding milk because it can kill you

EDIT:
And no, Skyblue does not use flavourings with Diacetyl, but we do use flavourings with Acetoin - on our website under the product desription it is pointed out if the flavour contains Acetoin or not.

Acetoin can under certain circumstances catalyze into trace amounts of Diacetyl

Read more about that here http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/flavorsworkshop/custard.html

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Oupa (6/7/14)

Agree @Derick 
... plus this subject has been debated quite extensively on the forum. A quick search and you should be able to find long conversations about it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Derick (6/7/14)

Oupa said:


> Agree @Derick
> ... plus this subject has been debated quite extensively on the forum. A quick search and you should be able to find long conversations about it.


 
Yep, forgot to say that this has been discussed to death before, not just here but all over the web. A simple google search will give plenty of information for you to make up your own mind.


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## MarkK (6/7/14)

Its interesting the defensive tone your post takes but hey each person may have their stand point.

I recommend you stand on the side of caution.
Even though you have done your research and know of these chemicals does not make you any kind of authority to say what they might or might not do to your lungs over prolonged exposure... unfortunately for us the studies have just not been done...

There may be many more flavourings that we should not be breathing. Our ignorance is not protecting us from anything  but again staying on the side of safety with the things we do know about is a much more reasonable choice, would you not say?

To each their own... Make your own decision. Just know that acetoin - diacetyl, acetoin, and acetyl propionyl are the same things. They are the same family of chemicals(butters/creams). Or should i say these are chemicals your tongue perceives as butters and creams. But the effects on the lungs are UNTESTED making any kind of claims to its safety without even the most basic medical study of these chemicals is irresponsible, especially on the part of a vendor. :/

To each their own!!


The truth of the matter is that we just do not know yet


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## Derick (6/7/14)

MarkK said:


> Its interesting the defensive tone your post takes but hey each person may have their stand point.
> 
> I recommend you stand on the side of caution.
> Even though you have done your research and know of these chemicals does not make you any kind of authority to say what they might or might not do to your lungs over prolonged exposure... unfortunately for us the studies have just not been done...
> ...


 
Did not intend it to be defensive, but frankly this comes up every few months and I feel it has been discussed to death - personally I won't respond to posts about Diacetyl anymore

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MarkK (6/7/14)

then why are you responding ? lol this was ment for some of the new faces around the forum.

I also wanted to make the point that these 3 chemicals are all buttery flavours and are the same family of chemicals as this has not really been mentioned.

Some vendors are selling Acetoin containing products and saying its the customers choice. This is like a drug dealer handing over heroin... (It could kill you but its your choice, I take no responsibility but i take your money attitude)

We dont leave loaded guns around, why allow people to use some thing that might or might not hurt them.


I apologise, I'm getting a little passionate about this.

What if customers that you know so personally develop some respiratory issues in 5 years time and you helped them ?
I would hate my self.
But I should stop I'm dragging out personal concerns


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## Arctus (6/7/14)

If I may, yes, the topic of Diacetyl has been debated to death all over the internet and on most, if not all vaping forums.
And, Yes the quantities that can apparently be ingested/inhaled are possibly so small as to have no effect, some people don’t care and are prepared to take the “chance” or risk, others are not, just like the majority of things in life.

To the two suppliers that have responded, firstly, thank you for at least responding, although in fairness, it is a Sunday so maybe other vendors will chime in later in the week.
For the record I have vaped juices from both of your companies and have enjoyed them immensely, I currently use and will continue to make use of Derick’s companies concentrates.

Everyone seems to agree that we should do our homework and make our own choices where flavours are concerned, isn’t that exactly what Silver’s post was requesting?.
We can “do our homework” all over the web, but the only people that know the contents of your juices are you, the “manufacturer” and/or supplier, and just because it has been stated once, somewhere on the forum, that none of the vendors at the time used these chemicals, does not automatically hold true that this is still the case. Nobody is accusing anybody of anything, we are simply trying to educate ourselves on what is a relatively new hobby with many unknowns, allow me to explain what I mean through an example.

Derick linked to a website containing an article that states that milk can kill you, as part of making his point, however on that same website, in another article, , http://www.youngagain.org/a21.html the following statements are made: “_Eat a low fat, high fiber diet of whole grains, beans, and fresh green and yellow vegetables. Stop eating the saturated animal fats in meat, poultry, eggs, and dairy foods._” As well as: “_Diet is everything. Americans eat a whopping 42% fat calories, and most all of these are saturated artery clogging fats”_
Many people on this site are currently on the banting/real meal revolution, and would disagree wholeheartedly with this and be able to link to contrary studies/documents, etc.
So while that statement may have been considered correct at the time, we now know better.

My point is not that I am trying to be “picky” or refute the tiniest detail in the vendors posts, but rather that studies and their results change over time and the decisions we make as consumers will too, so please don’t be offended if every six months or so you are asked if your products contain something or other, us consumers are just trying to keep up to date and keep ourselves informed.

I for one would be very interested in seeing the rest of the vendors responses to Silver’s post.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## ET (6/7/14)

Derick said:


> Did not intend it to be defensive, but frankly this comes up every few months and I feel it has been discussed to death - personally I won't respond to posts about Diacetyl anymore


 
right on derick.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Silver (6/7/14)

Thanks for the feedback @Derick and @Oupa

Please don't think I am trying to bring you guys or any of the local manufacturers down. Quite the opposite actually. I want you guys to succeed. Because if you succeed as a vaping liquid manufacturer - then I succeed as a vaping liquid consumer 

All I was hoping for is that the liquid manufacturers locally could just highlight and refresh us all which of their ready made juices may contain one of the "suspect" components. That's all. Then we can go ahead and make our own decisions.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mauritz (6/7/14)

Hi all ,

We spent considerable time researching technical data available and weighted the pro's and cons of those delishious buttery flavours.. We decided that the safety and trust of our clients is of the utmost concern. All of the eliquid flavours in CraftVapours lineup are diacetyl, acetoin and acetyl propionyl free.

Regards,

Reactions: Like 3


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## Silver (6/7/14)

Mow@CraftVapour said:


> Hi all ,
> 
> So , we spent some time researching technical data available and weighted the pro's and cons of those delishious buttery flavours.. We decided that the safety and trust of our clients is of the utmost concern. All of the eliquid flavours in CraftVapours lineup are diacetyl, acetoin and acetyl propionyl free.
> 
> Regards,


 
Thanks @Mow@CraftVapour - appreciate your feedback.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Andre (6/7/14)

When I saw this thread I though - Oh no, not again. When someone posts a thread on the forum, he or she should have the courtesy of doing a search first - we have a search function top right. If such a search gives nothing or questions arise from the information gained from such a search, for sure then post a thread. For me this is basic forum etiquette. BTW, if you search "Diacetyl" you will find 3 pages of results.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Cat (6/7/14)

You can give up on that. That's why there's that "Let me google that for you" and why i my sig on one bike forum is "google is your friend." Search function on this forum is ok but many are not, and people generally don't know how to google specific websites.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## BumbleBee (6/7/14)

Are any of the above mentioned chemicals equally or more dangerous than cigarettes?

Personally I would vape these flavours before going back to proven-these-WILL-kill-you-sticks

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RezaD (7/7/14)

Andre said:


> When I saw this thread I though - Oh no, not again. When someone posts a thread on the forum, he or she should have the courtesy of doing a search first - we have a search function top right. If such a search gives nothing or questions arise from the information gained from such a search, for sure then post a thread. For me this is basic forum etiquette. BTW, if you search "Diacetyl" you will find 3 pages of results.


 
Exactly what I wanted to say. It's not that the vendors are being defensive it's just that this is well and truly a dead horse. Not that I am trying to pick on noobs - it's just that as was stated a few times you should have searched in the relevant sub-forums first.

The bottom line being that the actual flavour manufacturers can also give the vendors false assurances. Nobody can say with 100% certainty. As long as it is pointed out the responsibilty lies with us as end users - full stop. I don't see people going ragged over all the chemicals in processed products be it a simple biscuit, sweet or packet of chips. Yet those products are likely more harmful since the population consumes such vast amounts of it. Not to mention preservatives.

So if you are really that concerned try vaping flavourless ejuice - it has an international following. Lastly there is no malice, disrespect or insulting tone attached to this post.


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## Mauritz (7/7/14)

Hi Mark ,

I agree wholheartedly with your post on the bannacream but you assume that it is an ingredient. We do not use bannacream from either TFA or PA in our Yellow Submarine. I cannot disclose the details of our recipies but rest assured that the recipe is free from any custard incredients.

Our eliquids will not have the same cream or caramel notes as vendors who use acetoin or other substitues but we put great effort into creating substitute creamy textures that are safe and tasty.

Regards,

Reactions: Like 5


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## MarkK (7/7/14)

@Mauritz I applaud your mature response sir! 
I just want to keep people informed and safe!


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## ET (7/7/14)

Cigarette additive[edit]
In a 1994 report released by five top cigarette companies, acetoin was listed as one of the 599 additives to cigarettes.

so it might be in an ecig flavour but it's defo in stinkies. does that still put you off vaping?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## soonkia (7/7/14)

Ulitimatly, the FDA rulings currently under discussion is about only allowing proven safe to vape flavourants to be added to eliquid.

The testing to prove if it is save to vape will be made the responsibility of the manufacturer at a great cost. This will have the unfortuante effect of reducing the range of products available as well as the amount of suppliers that would be able to meet the requirements. 

One good thing is that at least we'll be able to see what chemicals are in the products that we choose to vape, as it would be a requirement to print ingedients on the product - pretty much like it is with food.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Simon Kruger (7/7/14)

Doing a search will provide the information you are looking for, however it would be simpler to have a sticky under General e-liquad talk with all the relevant information in one place. Vendors could post their products that do or do not contain the said chemicals as well as all relevant information from members pertaining to the possible concerns of these materials. Then if someone starts a new post on the issues, one can just point them to this one location.

The problem with this kind of information is that it is never condensed and readily availble from one single location. Like anything one needs to research etc. Most of you here have done this research and this could save a lot of time for any new members.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Andre (7/7/14)

Simon Kruger said:


> Doing a search will provide the information you are looking for, however it would be simpler to have a sticky under General e-liquad talk with all the relevant information in one place. Vendors could post their products that do or do not contain the said chemicals as well as all relevant information from members pertaining to the possible concerns of these materials. Then if someone starts a new post on the issues, one can just point them to this one location.
> 
> The problem with this kind of information is that it is never condensed and readily availble from one single location. Like anything one needs to research etc. Most of you here have done this research and this could save a lot of time for any new members.


That is an excellent idea. Are you up to the task? Once your thread is posted I shall happily stickify it for you. Suggest you post the thread here: http://www.ecigssa.co.za/forums/health-matters.60/

Reactions: Like 1


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## Simon Kruger (7/7/14)

Sure no problem, unless the original poster wants to do it? I can create the post tonight at home I just need to think about the information I want to link to as well as making it as simple to understand as possible.


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## Andre (7/7/14)

Simon Kruger said:


> Sure no problem, unless the original poster wants to do it? I can create the post tonight at home I just need to think about the information I want to link to as well as making it as simple to understand as possible.


Wonderful, thank you. Take your time, we are all volunteers with busy schedules.


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## Andre (7/7/14)

And here is some research questioning the validity of diacetyl as the culprit for popcorn lung - seems smoking might have been the culprit - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24635357

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Hein510 (7/7/14)

This diacetyl thing is becoming like the asbestos situation back in the day, asbestos was seen as a miracle material, the people working with it didnt know to have the right safety equipment to work with it as its been seen as a safe product and after years of cutting and working with it the factories was filled with deadly dust they were inhaling every day for years, resulting in the asbestos lung, there is still houses with asbestos roofs and people are suddenly scared they gonna walk under a piece of asbestos and breath in a particle of asbestos dust and suddenly die, thats not gonna happen, if you are not working with it it basicly is harmless. Same with the diacetyl thing, people inhale that stuff in the factories for years before they picked up on it making them sick. Fibreglass is probably one of the most dangerous materials on the market today but is been manufactured and reworked by the consumers with the knowledge of the safety aspect and thus they know to wear masks and gloves etc. If they didnt work with the safety gear fibreglass would have made a lot of people sick and it would have been banned just like asbestos. 

Inhaling diacetyl isnt good yes, but taking it in in small quantities aint gonna kill you, I dont mind it, I know what it can and cant do and if i wanna vape some custard which has diacetyl in i will but all in moderation, like a treat every now and them, not gonna vape it for 24hours a day for a week at a time.


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## Andre (7/7/14)

And for me the best words on this is from Clark at Nicoticket in their product description for Custard's Last Stand:

_*Nicoticket LLC is committed to ensuring our "family" - past, present, and prospective - understand the inhalation risks associated with vaping specific types of flavors. All liquid containing "custard notes" from ALL VENDORS (including Nicoticket LLC) contain some combination of Diacetyl, Acetoin, and/or Acytyl Propionyl (collectively known as "diketones"). This liquid does *not* contain Diacetyl, but it *does* contain Acetoin, Acytyl Propionyl; or both. It is *impossible* to produce the "rich, creamy, decadent, full-mouth experience" in eLiquid without diketones. Such is life - everything that tastes good is bad for you. Potential users are advised that there may be reason for pause due to an absence of longitudinal research which can provide adequate guidance with regard to the relative safety of inhaling eLiquid containing diketones. As with all eLiquid regardless of the types of flavoring used, the user accepts the all liability and risk associated with vaping. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SAFE VAPING._

Reactions: Like 4


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## MarkK (7/7/14)

Andre said:


> And for me the best words on this is from Clark at Nicoticket in their product description for Custard's Last Stand:
> 
> _*Nicoticket LLC is committed to ensuring our "family" - past, present, and prospective - understand the inhalation risks associated with vaping specific types of flavors. All liquid containing "custard notes" from ALL VENDORS (including Nicoticket LLC) contain some combination of Diacetyl, Acetoin, and/or Acytyl Propionyl (collectively known as "diketones"). This liquid does *not* contain Diacetyl, but it *does* contain Acetoin, Acytyl Propionyl; or both. It is *impossible* to produce the "rich, creamy, decadent, full-mouth experience" in eLiquid without diketones. Such is life - everything that tastes good is bad for you. Potential users are advised that there may be reason for pause due to an absence of longitudinal research which can provide adequate guidance with regard to the relative safety of inhaling eLiquid containing diketones. As with all eLiquid regardless of the types of flavoring used, the user accepts the all liability and risk associated with vaping. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SAFE VAPING._


 

This is all I was trying to say, Nicoticket did a much better job of it...
Thanks Andre.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Oupa (7/7/14)

Awesome quote from Clark at Nicoticket @Andre !

Nothing wrong with some good healthy debate. I think it also comes down to using some good old common sense:

It's like indulging in fat... chicken skin, lamb fat on a "skaap tjoppie", "skilpadjies/lewer en netvet", bacon, deep fried foods. They are all sooooo yummy and I for one LOVE pigging out on them from time to time. I do however know that if I consume these fats on a regular basis/daily that I will come to an early demise for obvious reasons. Do we ban fat because we will be affecting our health if we consume it all day every day? Of course not. The same goes for sugar/sugar rich foods or simple carbo hydrates. Over consumption will surely cause diabetes, heart disease, etc...

So yes I agree, vendors should state if one or some of their flavours contain these known "unsure/risky" components. Custard flavours do make nice flavourfull treats every now and then though and should perhaps be treated as an occasional treat and not a staple juice for everyday all day use.

As for Vapour Mountain... none of our juices contain flavours with added Diacetyl. Our Vanilla Custard flavour does contain acetoin and acetyl propionyl and is now marked as such on our website.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Thanks 1


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## drew (7/7/14)

Silver said:


> Thanks for the post @MarkK
> I think we should all keep an eye on these things. If we are now vaping to do something healthier than smoking, we may as well stay away from things that have too many questionmarks regarding safety.
> 
> Would be interesting if our local juice manufacturers could recap here which of their flavours contain the suspicious components.
> ...


 
None of our flavour concentrates contain diacetyl, the following do however contain acetoin/acetyl propionyl and are marked with *** on the site.

Apple (Granny Smith)
Bavarian Cream
Coconut
Hazelnut
Sweet Cream
Vanilla Custard
White Chocolate

Reactions: Thanks 2


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## Silver (7/7/14)

Thanks for the feedback thus far - much appreciated.


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## BumbleBee (7/7/14)

this thread is making me hungry

Reactions: Like 3


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## Chop007 (7/7/14)

I wonder if any of the actual foods we eat contain these substances. Would not want to get popcorn belly.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## BumbleBee (7/7/14)

Chop007 said:


> I wonder if any of the actual foods we eat contain these substances. Would not want to get popcorn belly.


Microwave popcorn seems to be the most popular place to stick it.

hey.... now that you mention it maybe thats why I look like a popcorn

Reactions: Funny 2


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## MarkK (7/7/14)

Chop007 said:


> I wonder if any of the actual foods we eat contain these substances. Would not want to get popcorn belly.


 
Why do I feel like I am being ridiculed by the community for my concern... 
Is this how we conduct ourselfs? 

@Andre Can you please close and delete this thread...
I have been the butt of enough jokes now thanks...


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## BumbleBee (7/7/14)

@MarkK my comments weren't meant to insult or make fun of anyone, I don't think anyone else that commented on this post intended to offend you. When a topic gets heated I do try and lighten the mood with humour, I think a few other forum members do the same. Please understand that this topic is a pretty well pressurized can o' worms that has been standing in the sun too long, and every time someone opens the lid people start getting edgy. Nothing personal bud it's the kind of subject that gets people heated.

Bygons?


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## Mauritz (7/7/14)

While I agree that the search function is the place to start any discussion, I do not belive it should be an issue for standup members of the vaping community to offer constructive guidance around areas of concern for fellow members. No matter how many times it's been dealt with before.

In referance to the qoute from nicoticket.

The term "safe" may be a reference to either absolute safety or to acceptable safety. As soon as a system or product is determined to be safety-critical, absolute safety may become an impossible target. on the other hand acceptable or relative levels of safety generally imply that there is some way of judging how much harm either justifies more effort or demands a different approach.

It is irresponsible for an organisation or manufacturer to approach vaping safety as absolute as it allows for a view of impossibility. There is no clear indication of the risk associated with certain ingredients nor has the safety requirement been broadly defined 'safety criticle' or 'acceptably safe'.

The principle of As Low As Reasonably Practicable (ALARP) embodies the concept that acceptability can be influenced by the cost of improving safety, 'cost' being defined as monetory, effort or residual risk. It does so by categorising the assessment of a risk into one of three possibilities: those with so great a risk they are never acceptable, those with so little a risk they are always acceptable, and the remaining which are acceptable provided that they have been reduced to as low as reasonably practicable and where the cost of reducing the risk further is not justified by the improvement to safety.

My point is that there is definitely a safe in vaping. That "safe" will in time be determined by legal requirements but for the time being it should be determined by responsible manufactures that adhere to the ALARP principle. By viewing it as an acceptable rather than absolute safety and always striving to eliminate risks that are within our ability to eliminate.

In CraftVapour's view, the cost of reducing the generally acceptable risk of acetoin was effort. We chose to remove acetoin which forced us to get creative in our approach to flavours as we do not have access to most cream, butter, caramel and custard flavourants. It was an acceptable cost for what we consider to be a relative increase in the safety of our product. In time we may review this decision based on demand or new information that changes the risk category of acetoin.

Every organization will have different risk appetites and one approach does not fit all. There is a place for acetoin in a market with educated consumers. Consumers have a right to choose and many find acetoin acceptable when compared to the risks in smoking tobacco.

@MarkK I hope this helps clarify our position on custard ingredients.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## zadiac (3/9/14)

Derick said:


> Does anybody really think that that 3ml or so they vape a day (that contains trace amounts of Diacetyl) is going to give you popcorn lung?


 
Ummm.... is that the average amount of juice used per day in general?

I must be very addicted then, because I go through 30-40ml a day easily....lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Derick (3/9/14)

zadiac said:


> Ummm.... is that the average amount of juice used per day in general?
> 
> I must be very addicted then, because I go through 30-40ml a day easily....lol


You then hold the world record I think - highest I've seen was a dude on Reddit said he did 300ml a month - which is about 10ml's a day

Reactions: Agree 1


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## johan (3/9/14)

zadiac said:


> Ummm.... is that the average amount of juice used per day in general?
> 
> I must be very addicted then, because I go through 30-40ml a day easily....lol


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## Rob Fisher (3/9/14)

Derick said:


> You then hold the world record I think - highest I've seen was a dude on Reddit said he did 300ml a month - which is about 10ml's a day


 
Then I beat that chap... I refill my 6ml bottles twice a day plus a bit so I use around 12-14ml per day.


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## huffnpuff (3/9/14)

Rob Fisher said:


> Then I beat that chap... I refill my 6ml bottles twice a day plus a bit so I use around 12-14ml per day.


I'm similar, usually more If I'm up late, but 60-70% is unflavoured (bestest ADV ever, coz you can hammer it all day and still have tons taste left for evening dessert vapes )

Reactions: Like 2


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