# Premium Juice Prices In Perspective



## Alex (30/5/14)



Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## RevnLucky7 (30/5/14)

Funny, but slightly absurd.

How fast can you drink 2.25 liters of e-juice?
...and if it were to be made any cheaper, would you drink it any faster?


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## Alex (30/5/14)

RevnLucky7 said:


> Funny, but slightly absurd.
> 
> How fast can you drink 2.25 liters of e-juice?



Depends, now if were talking Five Pawns - Gambit..


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## Cat (30/5/14)

Shows that e-juices are somewhat overpriced. 
That Mothers Milk sounds good and there's one that is very similar but without the strawberry. Nice labels.


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## Paul (19/6/14)

Yes it seems as though only SkyBlue Vapours are selling e-juice at market prices.

The price per ml to mix up 18mg strength is R1.91 which works out as R19.10 for 10ml.

Selling locally mixed e-juice for the same price as what it costs to import international brands only makes every man and his dog want to setup an e-juice company.

If you vape 20ml a week then you are spending R3000 extra a year....it's crazy.

I was thinking of importing myself but because there was a local SA supplier selling at a fair price, I will support them instead.


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## Tom (19/6/14)

Paul said:


> Yes it seems as though only SkyBlue Vapours are selling e-juice at market prices.
> 
> The price per ml to mix up 18mg strength is R1.91 which works out as R19.10 for 10ml.
> 
> ...


well...if u smoke 20 cigs a day = 36 Rand/day = 13140 Rand/year. The cost of manufacturing cigs is also very low, but the governments of this world get a nice income. In SA that income gets used where? Building mansions for certain people maybe?

calculations aside.... I vape exclusive juices, even at a heftier price tag, simply because vaping is not just feeding my addiction....its for my enjoyment! A tool to relax. There are good juices at good prices, me thinks right now VM (the only SA brand I have tried), and I would always buy that. But I am also tired of buying cheap, artificial tasting flavours just because they are cheap. Always remember: if you buy cheap, you buy twice

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


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## Zuzu88 (19/6/14)

And besides.... What's a few extra bucks towards a premium blended juice giving u great complex flavours, FDA approved ingredients, and saving your lungs, those around u and the environment 

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1


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## Paul (19/6/14)

Tom said:


> well...if u smoke 20 cigs a day = 36 Rand/day = 13140 Rand/year. The cost of manufacturing cigs is also very low, but the governments of this world get a nice income. In SA that income gets used where? Building mansions for certain people maybe?
> 
> calculations aside.... I vape exclusive juices, even at a heftier price tag, simply because vaping is not just feeding my addiction....its for my enjoyment! A tool to relax. There are good juices at good prices, me thinks right now VM (the only SA brand I have tried), and I would always buy that. But I am also tired of buying cheap, artificial tasting flavours just because they are cheap. Always remember: if you buy cheap, you buy twice


 
You can import the best quality base ingredients, with certificates of authenticity and flavours that are 100 natural and farmed organically, again with certificates of authenticity from the USA, and if you are making over a litre it will only cost you R1.00 per ml, this is sourced from reputable sources, if you source from China you can do it for 50c per ml. In my opinion a fair market price for top quality locally mixed should be from R1.50 to R2.50

I did manage to get a top quality juice locally within that price range but the vast majority were over R3.50.
Making a lot of money in the e-juice market is going to be all about creating a brand and you aren't going to establish that with overpricing, you just create more competition.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Tom (19/6/14)

Paul said:


> You can import the best quality base ingredients, with certificates of authenticity and flavours that are 100 natural and farmed organically, again with certificates of authenticity from the USA, and if you are making over a litre it will only cost you R1.00 per ml, this is sourced from reputable sources, if you source from China you can do it for 50c per ml. In my opinion a fair market price for top quality locally mixed should be from R1.50 to R2.50
> 
> I did manage to get a top quality juice locally within that price range but the vast majority were over R3.50.
> Making a lot of money in the e-juice market is going to be all about creating a brand and you aren't going to establish that with overpricing, you just create more competition.


if you look at VM juice, its 120 bucks for the 30ml. This is more then fair and good pricing. you would rate that as too expensive? you cant calculate the asking price just from ingredients if you DIY.

Btw, here in Germany juice is much more expensive. No name brands cost already 5-6 Euro for just 10ml.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## zaVaper (19/6/14)

I get that organic juices tend to have more labour and ingredient costs than those crafted from artificial flavours so a premium tag is acceptable.

I also get that it may take months of trail an error and a bucket load of sub-par attempts to formulate that artfully crafted vape, tag that as premium.

What I don't get is making a simple juice, let’s argue 1-3 flavour concentrates make up the flavour, slap it in a glass bottle and label it premo. That in my mind is milking your customers.

Don't get me wrong, some of the simple flavours are the greatest, but premium I think not.

If you argue that you sourced your nicotine from virgin rainforests and your glycerine from naked concubines and that makes it premium then I simply argue that it's a "quality" juice, not premium.

Just my humble opinion, and my thoughts on the label "premium"

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Paul (19/6/14)

Zuzu88 said:


> And besides.... What's a few extra bucks towards a premium blended juice giving u great complex flavours, FDA approved ingredients, and saving your lungs, those around u and the environment
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk


 
All e-liquids are advertised as premium, but I have yet to see anyone advertising offering proof of authenticity.
You dont see "Our VG/PG is sourced from xxxxxxxx using only 100 percent natural organic flavours", they just say their product is "Premium" because they know that there are no real standards for e-liquids and they cant be sure of it's source.


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## RevnLucky7 (19/6/14)

Paul said:


> You can import the best quality base ingredients, with certificates of authenticity and flavours that are 100 natural and farmed organically, again with certificates of authenticity from the USA, and if you are making over a litre it will only cost you R1.00 per ml, this is sourced from reputable sources, if you source from China you can do it for 50c per ml. In my opinion a fair market price for top quality locally mixed should be from R1.50 to R2.50
> 
> I did manage to get a top quality juice locally within that price range but the vast majority were over R3.50.
> Making a lot of money in the e-juice market is going to be all about creating a brand and you aren't going to establish that with overpricing, you just create more competition.


 

I think it's important to note that if you want to achieve R1 a mil you're buying bulk. REAL bulk. And I don't think you're taking things like tax and duty into account. Then you're over looking the risk factor. Try buying bulk nicotine that pulls R30 000 out of your pocket for the first time and see how well you can handle it when it gets to customs.

Then there's the process of mixing it - creating something that will actually sell in the competitive market we have today. 80% of vapers don't vape to save money and most are very well aware that they spend way more they ever did on vaping than they do on cigarettes. 100% of vapers will agree they actually enjoy vaping. I don't know how many people will say that about smoking and therefor it's important to note that many are willing to spend more on something they actually enjoy rather than something they didn't.

Mixing an e liquid is easy. Mixing something good and truely unique is another. Then there's packaging and marketing overheads.

After all that is said and done, there's the hours that go into into it. Try working a 10 hour job, coming home, cooking for the family, puting the kids to bed and then spening another 8 hours preparing 100 bottles of liquid that people expect to be at their place in 48 hours time. Then go to bed, get 5 hours of sleep a night if you're lucky wake up and do it all over again.

If you ask me every single mixer that I know of in South Africa is severly underselling their product.
The going rate world wide is somewhere in the range of R180 per 30ml. If you buy anything anywhere for less than that consider yourself very lucky.

It's not just as black and white as cruching a few numbers out, waving a magic wand and all of a sudden you have a presentable liquid line. I found your post slightly disrespectful and I don't think you really have an idea of what it takes.

EDIT: Oh and when that's all said and done, visit the forum after you're day is done and read some nasty reviews and opinions on how you fail over and over again to produce something great. How your product is over priced and how someone else can really just do so much better by punching numbers into a calculator. That's a real motivator.

I understand what you are saying with the whole labeling thing and yes it gets out of hand sometimes. But don't knock the local guys mixing it up for they're going rates when you're already getting it easy.

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 2


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## Paul (19/6/14)

RevnLucky7 said:


> I think it's important to note that if you want to achieve R1 a mil you're buying bulk. REAL bulk. And I don't think you're taking things like tax and duty into account. Then you're over looking the risk factor. Try buying bulk nicotine that pulls R30 000 out of your pocket for the first time and see how well you can handle it when it gets to customs.
> 
> Then there's the process of mixing it - creating something that will actually sell in the competitive market we have today. 80% of vapers don't vape to save money and most are very well aware that they spend way more they ever did on vaping than they do on cigarettes. 100% of vapers will agree they actually enjoy vaping. I don't know how many people will say that about smoking and therefor it's important to note that many are willing to spend more on something they actually enjoy rather than something they didn't.
> 
> ...


 
I disagree, it's money for jam, which is why so many local companies, founded by vapers, have sprung up.

Low cost to enter the market.
Low equipment costs.
Little product knowledge required.
Labels and bottles can be printed/sourced per order.
Low weight/volume per order low shipping costs.

Considering the product is inhaled into a person’s lungs you would expect the companies selling this product to employ a pharmaceutical expert and to have extensive chemical handling experience, yet most of them are founded by vapers, and good on them... but to argue that this is a highly specialised industry is untrue.

To launch an ad hominem attack backed up with;

"It's not just as black and white as cruching a few numbers out, waving a magic wand and all of a sudden you have a presentable liquid line. I found your post slightly disrespectful and I don't think you really have an idea of what it takes."

without any substance to your argument is disrespectful, you have no idea as to my qualifications in voicing, what is obviously, my opinion.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## RevnLucky7 (19/6/14)

Paul said:


> To launch an ad hominem attack backed up with "It's not just as black and white as cruching a few numbers out" without any substance to your argument is disrespectful, you have no idea as to my qualifications in voicing, what is obviously, my opinion.


 


What are you twelve?

As for my substance... I can tell by your attitude that you are obviously very new and off to a fantastic start mate. I'm a retailer. I play this game day in and day out. And it's an expensive one that requires much more than what you see on the surface. What did you say your qualifications were again besides voicing your opinion?



Paul said:


> Considering the product is inhaled into a person’s lungs you would expect the companies selling this product to employ a pharmaceutical expert and to have extensive chemical handling experience...


 
Why didn't you just say you were looking for a job.
Hey, we're in the same boat! 

No one is forced to inhale anything. It's your choice as a consumer. You decide what you want to inhale aand where you want to buy from. Many companies use facilities these days to mix and bottle liquids and the mixing is done in lab-like locations. So please, don't assume all brands are the same. Anyone mixing at home will probably label a product hand crafted or will let you know in some way that the products are mixed by hand.

But by all means, the market is open to all.

Why don't you come show us how?

_Low cost to enter the market.
Low equipment costs.
Little product knowledge required.
Labels and bottles can be printed/sourced per order.
Low weight/volume per order low shipping costs_

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
You are more than welcome not to support any one you do not wish to. But there's no need to go waving your fingers about at the guys pioneering this industry in South Africa. Had it not been for them, there would have been no Ecigssa for you to put your cocky attitude on display.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Paul (19/6/14)

RevnLucky7 said:


> EDIT: Oh and when that's all said and done, visit the forum after you're day is done and read some nasty reviews and opinions on how you fail over and over again to produce something great. How your product is over priced and how someone else can really just do so much better by punching numbers into a calculator. That's a real motivator.
> 
> I understand what you are saying with the whole labeling thing and yes it gets out of hand sometimes. But don't knock the local guys mixing it up for they're going rates when you're already getting it easy.


 
I didn't just punch numbers into a calculator, I obtained quotes including duty and shipping costs.

If I mixed 2 bottles of what I paid R1500 for I could resell for R6000.

With that sort of markup you don't need my motivation 

Incidently the chemicals concerned only cost R600 the other R900 was for shipping and duty, so with a better shipping plan the profits could be considerably more.


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## RevnLucky7 (19/6/14)

Paul said:


> I didn't just punch numbers into a calculator, I obtained quotes including duty and shipping costs.
> 
> If I mixed 2 bottles of what I paid R1500 for I could resell for R6000.
> 
> ...


 
That sounds like a fantastic juice line.

Can I pre-order now?


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## Paul (19/6/14)

RevnLucky7 said:


> What are you twelve?
> 
> As for my substance... I can tell by your attitude that you are obviously very new and off to a fantastic start mate. I'm a retailer. I play this game day in and day out. And it's an expensive one that requires much more than what you see on the surface. What did you say your qualifications were again besides voicing your opinion?
> 
> ...


 

Really ? Is this how you represent your company online ? I will publish the quotes I obtained which backup my argument in this thread titled "premium juice prices in perspective", you can continue to lose your temper and be abusive.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## RevnLucky7 (19/6/14)

Paul said:


> Really ? Is this how you represent your company online ? I will publish the quotes I obtained which backup my argument in this thread titled "premium juice prices in perspective", you can continue to lose your temper and be abusive.


 
My company is about more than just profit and I promise you that you have NO idea what we are about.
This is how I represent this community. Every member and every other retailer, some of which are my friends, that you so nonchalantly started bashing with total hogwash. And the sad part is - I don't even think you are aware of it.

I'm not intrested in your numbers. As I stated in my first post, it's not as black and white as simply numbers, but you don't seem to get it.



Welcome to the forum! Most guys would have started off with: "Hi, my name is Paul..."


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## Rob Fisher (19/6/14)

Guys please cool it... online personal attacks are not allowed on the ecigssa forum. There are rational arguments on both sides but there is no need to get personal. By all means chat to each other privately but public personal attacks are not tolerated.

I'm sure you can both take a step back and see a little from the others point of view.

Many thanks.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## Tom (19/6/14)

What is your argument here @Paul ? Yes, we can all agree that the ingredients can be bought relatively cheap. I personally know someone running a B&M shop, he stated as well that there is hardly any money to be made by selling mods. Liquids do make money. I also work for money, so that I can have bread and butter on the table. But cheaply acquired ingredients does not make a decent eliquid. I think that @RevnLucky7 had good valid points in his post above.

Once again, I believe that pricing in SA must be about the cheapest in the world. Just an example...I am paying 20 Euros for the same Witchers Brew that is sold in SA for much less. And that was the cheapest I could find in Europe. Ok, that is also imported into the EU, but then a local premium liquid like "House of Liquids" is selling the Cigar de Paris for 25 Euros/30ml. Or just an ordinary, not premium, not complex juice here in Germany goes for 5,90 Euro/10ml.

You know that there are huge profits made with coffee to go? The total cost for one is probably around 2-3 Rands, and they sell it for anything between 15 and 30 Rands. Do I or anyone else attack them? No, I love Cappucino take aways....

At the end of the day...you decide what you want to do. DIY, local or overseas purchases, vaping, smoking....its all up to ones own personal liking.

If you are not happy with the offered juices and pricing....go DIY. I would not do it because I am happy with the flavours I got now. No need to experiment, no need to be disappointed in what I possibly brew together. Most likely I would not get out what I want and there would be a lot of money wasted then.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 3


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## Paul (19/6/14)

http://ejuice4u.com

Here is the quote including shipping and duty for 1000ml of 36mg.

I then purchase a 1000ml of local VG for R120.

I end up with 2000ml of 18mg, I sell for R60 for a 20ml bottle I would make R6000


I have always stayed on topic in this thread and backed it up with hard and fast evidence.
I am also sitting here vaping with a localy supplied ejuice which I purchased for R19.10 per 10ml. So either all these other companies are doing it wrong or prices for locally mixed juice is far too high.


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## ShaneW (19/6/14)

Paul, instead of complaining... Please produce or bring us some 'cheap' juice. If it compares to the likes of SOV or 5pawns, you'll be so busy you won't keep up. Put your money where your mouth is

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## Paul (20/6/14)

ShaneW said:


> Paul, instead of complaining... Please produce or bring us some 'cheap' juice. If it compares to the likes of SOV or 5pawns, you'll be so busy you won't keep up. Put your money where your mouth is


 
If you read the thread I did manage to buy some excellent local cheap juice from skyblue.

http://www.skybluevaping.co.za/e-liquids/DIY-e-liquids/Skyblue-diy-liquid

They must be so busy they can't keep up.


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## Paul (20/6/14)

Tom said:


> What is your argument here @Paul ? Yes, we can all agree that the ingredients can be bought relatively cheap. I personally know someone running a B&M shop, he stated as well that there is hardly any money to be made by selling mods. Liquids do make money. I also work for money, so that I can have bread and butter on the table. But cheaply acquired ingredients does not make a decent eliquid. I think that @RevnLucky7 had good valid points in his post above.
> 
> Once again, I believe that pricing in SA must be about the cheapest in the world. Just an example...I am paying 20 Euros for the same Witchers Brew that is sold in SA for much less. And that was the cheapest I could find in Europe. Ok, that is also imported into the EU, but then a local premium liquid like "House of Liquids" is selling the Cigar de Paris for 25 Euros/30ml. Or just an ordinary, not premium, not complex juice here in Germany goes for 5,90 Euro/10ml.
> 
> ...


 
For a minute there I thought I started this thread attacking the price of juice, I didn't, I agreed with the original member's argument and supported it with real facts and figures. I have provided the contact info for a local and international supplier of "premium" juice at a price considerably less than most suppliers in SA are selling for...and in return I receive a torrent of personal abuse.


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## RevnLucky7 (20/6/14)

Paul said:


> For a minute there I thought I started this thread attacking the price of juice, I didn't, I agreed with the original member's argument and supported it with real facts and figures. I have provided the contact info for a local and international supplier of "premium" juice at a price considerably less than most suppliers in SA are selling for...and in return I receive a torrent of personal abuse.


 

The original poster was refering to a complete brand.

You're pointing us to liquid nicotine and flavor extracts.
Why buy the apple when I can get the stork at a fraction of the price!

Have you ever tried Five Pawns or Witchers Brew or any other of these "Premium" juices?
Because I'm pretty sure you're under the impression it's as simple as buying a bottle of nic and adding some TPA or FA flavors to it.


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## steve (20/6/14)

@Paul you bought DIY ingrediants from skyblue and made your own juice at a reduced rate. Pre mixed juice is a differant world. Skyblue also sell "ready to vape" juice at 55 rand per 10ml which is a decent price for pre mixed. I think some of the frustration may come from the fact that this is not new information for many people on the forum. Most people after vaping for a while are aware of how much cheaper it is to DIY. Some choose to do so, some don't. But we must again be clear that mixing up your own and buying already made are two totally differant ball games 
in my experiance you generally get what you pay for in terms of "ready to vape" juice .


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## RevnLucky7 (20/6/14)

steve said:


> @Paul you bought DIY ingrediants from skyblue and made your own juice at a reduced rate. Pre mixed juice is a differant world. Skyblue also sell "ready to vape" juice at 55 rand per 10ml which is a decent price for pre mixed. I think some of the frustration may come from the fact that this is not new information for many people on the forum. Most people after vaping for a while are aware of how much cheaper it is to DIY. Some choose to do so, some don't. But we must again be clear that mixing up your own and buying already made are two totally differant ball games
> in my experiance you generally get what you pay for in terms of "ready to vape" juice .


 
I'm realizing there's obviously a huge gap in experience here...
I've written my piece. I'll leave it at that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShaneW (20/6/14)

I'm vaping the sky blue diy juice as I'm typing this. Really cost effective but it can't compare to the premium juice we are paying a premium price for. Vendors spend months and years perfecting their lines and hence charge a premium for their time. 
And if you ask sky blue I'm sure they'll tell you they were/are extremely busy

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Paul (20/6/14)

RevnLucky7 said:


> I'm realizing there's obviously a huge gap in experience here...
> I've written my piece. I'll leave it at that.



https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority


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## Rex_Bael (20/6/14)

@Paul I can buy the ingredients to brew my own beer for about R250 and make 23 litres. That's half the price per 6-pack in comparison to Castle. It does not guarantee that it will be any good, that I will want to drink it or that I will be able to sell it. 

Comparing the price of base components with the price of a finished product is also not fair, so let's compare apples to apples:

Using ejuice4u and adding a liter of unflavoured 0mg nic PG and 110ml of flavouring(A conservative 5% of total volume) comes to just over R3000. About R1.42 per ml, 18mg nic, flavoured juice.

You can purchase exactly the same locally for R1.05 per ml to about R1.83 per ml depending on who you purchase from and taking into account that this is not bulk pricing. You also do not run the risk of your order being confiscated or alternatively having to find a pharmacist who is licensed and willing to import the nic for you.

In other words, DIY liquids in SA are certainly not overpriced and perfectly viable.

For ready to vape liquids, it is possible to find some at similar prices to DIY. Fasttech has several available at those rates. I would certainly not use them and since you showed some concern over what goes into your liquids and the quality thereof, I suspect you wouldn't either. Looking at liquids with a reasonable reputation from known suppliers, South African retailers are spot-on with their pricing and generally cheaper than importing for yourself. As an example, you can purchase 30ml Liqua from Vapour Mountain locally for R120.00 or import from the US at $12.95 excluding postage etc.

In conclusion, comparing the price of base components to finished products is not a valid argument. Once you compare equivalent products the pricing in SA is far from unreasonable. You are more than welcome to complain about the price of liquids world-wide, but pointing a finger at SA suppliers and claiming they are just out to make a quick buck is unacceptable. These retailers have worked hard to provide our community with good quality products. They have earned the trust and respect of the community over time by consistently providing excellent service and products. In future, please take this into consideration before dismissing and judging them so casually.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 3


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## TylerD (20/6/14)



Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 5


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## Rooigevaar (20/6/14)

It is easy to see where @Paul is coming from, when I first learned what the price for raw ingredients are I must admit I also did a double take. In my mind I was being ripped off. And I started on a Twisp with juice that costs R200 for 20ml (makes premium prices seem cheap). So give him some slack as I am sure alot of us also had some doubts once they learned the raw ingredient's pricing...

Now however after trying some DIY myself and basically fart arsing around with it for a while I discovered that it is NOT that easy to make a juice that tastes good. DIY is also not THAT cheap as you are constantly buying new flavours as the last one you tried just dit not work etc etc. After tasting premium juice I can also say that in my limited ability to craft juice I will never be able to produce some of the fine juices I have tried. 

Time is money and I just dont have the time to DIY into the night.
The pricing for local juices seems more than fair to me and I am personally prepared to pay for them over and over again. Some of the Imported juices I am willing to pay more for. MY choice of what I want.
There is no Monopoly in SA with juice so no one is forcing us to buy only their juice...

If a vendor is over charging for crappy juice I can guarentee that they will not last long, and if a vendor makes good juice even at an inflated price they will probably do well. It's simple business, supply and demand. If people dont like it they wont buy it.

SO... we all know juice is expensive compared to the price of raw ingredients, and if you are willing to pay for a vendors juice then go for it and if you are not then go do some DIY. It is YOUR choice!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 7


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## Andre (20/6/14)

Lol, @Rooigevaar, same experience here. Crunched the numbers, bought a lot of flavours and nicotine. Started off with unbound enthusiasm...a few weeks later realised that none of my attempts were near to the good juices I could buy and that I had neither the patience nor the perserverance for DIY juices. Hats off to the people that are very successful at DIY. Not for me, but every time @dragontw posts a recipe I am sorely tempted...have been able to resist so far.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Riaz (20/6/14)

i have been DIYing for a while now, and i dont spend a fortune on concentrates.

i buy what i think will be nice (at the moment only have 5 concentrates) and thats it for me

im happy with my DIY mixes, yes they may not be as good as the 'premium' juices, but they work for me and im happy.

personally, i cannot justify paying R300 odd for 30ml of juice, simply because i cannot afford it- simple as that.

do i ***** and moan about it? no
do i wish the premium juices would be cheaper for people like me? yes
but then again i also wish that the price of ferraris will come down so i can buy that also.

i think the issue here is, if you can afford to pay premium prices for juices, then why the hell not?

if you cant, buy and do what you can afford.

i speak for myself here, but if i were to spend R300 on a bottle of juice, i will NOT give a negative review on it simply coz who wants to be the peophol that spent that money on juice and it wasnt any good.

just my 2c

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 2


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## Al3x (20/6/14)

I'm reading this thread and i have a few thoughts, leaving the e-juice out of the equation every1 goes into bussiness to make money, and looking at it if it's costing aprox R15 to make 10ml, a bottle about R5 label about R3 which is a stretch if you making under 50 that works out to R23, if you add labour, time taken, wastage when trying to get the recipe right 100% profit becomes 20% so from my point of view 50 bucks for a good juice already mixed where i know what it is gonna taste like is not bad at all and worth the 20 bucks for the effort put in. the other ones are expensive cause it's expensive, better bottles, more quality of ingredients etc. etc.

Jets sells a tackie for R50 but their are so many of using R800+ nikes but they both serve the same purpose once again same thing but i rather prefer the quality and know that i am buying something that has been tested by some1 who has taken a lot of time in mixing and perfecting a flavor for me to enjoy.

China mall in durbz has the Liqua for R25 a 10ml but i will definetly not buy from them and would rather pay the extra R25 and buy a locally produced juice. 

Also we as consumers need to take into consideration that in order for a manufacturer to sell something cheaper, they need to make up the drop in income somewhere, and this almost always the quality that drops.

I am thankful to all our local juice makers and suppliers for all their effort and making something available to us at a reasonable price, good quality and the fact that if there is a problem with the batch we can most probably exchange for a good one.

No offence intended to anyone, just my 2cents.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Tom (20/6/14)

Al3x said:


> *China mall in durbz has the Liqua for R25 a 10ml*


most likely fake.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## soonkia (20/6/14)

It's a free market - yes, cost to entry in the juice market is low - so, the market will sort it self out eventually - the more competition will drive down prices. Getting known and popular is a lot more expensive, but still not a deal breaker. 

Yoh, if we're feeling ripped off with juices, the Americans must really be pissed.

$55 for 1L of Nic and they have no problems selling 30ml premium juices @ $20 - $30. So sell 2 bottles, and your nic is paid for. We still need to pay shipping and import duties on the product just to start making it - and then you have the added risk of customs being in a fowl mood that day.


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## Yash (20/6/14)

Tom said:


> most likely fake.


 
Agreed, and I would be wary of purchasing any ejuice from China Mall...

Reactions: Like 1


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## RezaD (20/6/14)

Really busy at work these days so have not been very active but anyway.....

Having read all the posts I don't see what the argument is all about. Yes ejuice worldwide is overpriced but nobody is forced to buy anything. That is the bottom line.

I started tinkering with DIY for the following reasons:
1) I am very finicky when it comes to taste. I liked many juices but would like certain things changed like how much flavour etc.
2) I was very impressed with VM's VM4 but wanted the profile changed to a more tobacco element. I initially mixed VM4 with various Liqua tobacco flavours which did not work.
3) I like messing with food and cake recipes and change recipes to suit my palate.

For me DIY is not really cheap but that is because I am constantly experimenting (I now have more than 30 flavour concentrates) but it has been very rewarding. I very seldom vape the juices I bought and that I am still trying. I end up giving it away. Some I have swopped and some I have even thrown away.

If you like a very small variety of juices then it would be cheap to mix for sure. However getting the flavour spot on is truly an art / or lots of experimentation which is very costly no doubt.

It is when you mix 5 or more flavours that it truly becomes an art. It is no different to a master chef that has created his own recipes. You might use the same ingredients in your creation but it could taste very different.
I could give you an exact list of ingredients in a recipe and yet you would most likely never be able to recreate it. 

I have spent months doing this now and it is starting paying off big time for me. Access to proper ingredients (flavourants) is just as critical as the recipe itself. There are so many factors to creating a juice but just like cooking and baking I can give you an exact recipe down to the ml and you may or may not be able to recreate it.

But this post and @dragontw? has got me thinking..............as I have no intention of making a business from liquids should I make my recipes available to everyone on this forum or would it be prejudicing some who have put in a lot of time and effort into their products and deserve to reap the fruits of their labour? Should I put it to a vote?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Andre (20/6/14)

RezaD said:


> Really busy at work these days so have not been very active but anyway.....
> 
> Having read all the posts I don't see what the argument is all about. Yes ejuice worldwide is overpriced but nobody is forced to buy anything. That is the bottom line.
> 
> ...


No voting required, if you want to make your recipes available like @dragontw did, we shall all be over the moon with delight.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## dragontw (20/6/14)

I've been mixing juice for a long time. I also worked with a retail store to create their juice line. A *LOT* of work goes into creating a great juice and one that is worthy of retail. It also involves flavours from numerous sources not just from one supplier. It takes lots of sample making and changing one variable at a time until just the right blend. *It is certainly not just punching numbers into a calculator. *

Creating a single flavour juice is easy, but it's when you combine flavours that is when it gets tricky since certain flavours enhance each other and others cancel each other out etc.

I therefore respect other juice makers and if they want to sell it at premium that's their choice. No matter what industry there will always be people that will buy premium goods and that is also their choice. Does premium always equal better....I doubt it. 

I haven't bought a retail juice in nearly a year because I don't see the need to. I feel I have enough experience so I can create a juice that is on par with retail juices. There is nothing more satisfying for me than sitting back and vaping on a juice...smile and say yup...I made that! I also understand that a lot of people do not want to go through all the trouble in learning the craft of juice making.

A lot of people get discouraged with DIY as it appears so simple on the surface but is everything but. I come from an industry (graphic design) where there is a strong culture of sharing. I have notebooks filled with recipes, so I have no problem in sharing a few of them. It feels great when I get a PM from someone that has made one of my recipes and loves it.

Reactions: Like 10 | Thanks 1


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## Paul (21/6/14)

You think that liquid is better tasting but is it really ?

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...does-artistically-presented-food-taste-better

Reactions: Dislike 1 | Disagree 1


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## ShaneW (21/6/14)

Paul said:


> You think that liquid is better tasting but is it really ?
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...does-artistically-presented-food-taste-better



I was sent Bobas bounty in a plain unmarked bottle and its the best juice I've tasted. Yes looks can influence your perception of taste but we not staring at the bottle all day, we staring at our tanks.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ET (21/6/14)

Paul said:


> You think that liquid is better tasting but is it really ?
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...does-artistically-presented-food-taste-better


 
probably because most people are easily fooled. myself i hate all these artsy fartsy ways they are putting food on plates these days, just an excuse to put less on the plate. maybe i'm too old fashioned but i'd rather go buy a kg or rump steak and slap it on the braai instead of paying the same money for a spread out plate of little pieces of this and that


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## Gizmo (21/6/14)

Look @Paul nobody is going to argue with that doing DIY is very cost effective, and Skyblue or Valley Vapor have you covered for that. However! Making a production line of juice that is legal has more costs then what meet the eye.

Firstly nicotine is a scheduled substance here in sunny SA. So for us at Vape King to make our own liquid we had to get it signed off by a chemist which luckily my brother is married to one. All our nicotine is produced locally, importing nicotine is a massive 50/50 chance. So really you cant take international pricing into account in my humble opnion.

All of our concentrates are imported and actually cost more the nicotine base and you need to add shipping and order in 3L bottles to make it commercially viable. Then labels and bottles and our hours need to be taken into account. If you work it out, we are not making as massive markup as what people assume we are. Yes its good, but its far from easy. The amount of man hours sharri and I spend making bottles on a daily basis to keep the stock levels up is not a task for the faint of heart.

I also intially thought making juice was a walk in the park, but its really something else. Harder then any other part of my busines.. Now we expanding to different nicotine strenghts which makes it even harder.

Now if you prefer to do it DIY and you saving some bucks, thats awesome for you! Most people don't have the patience or the care and just wanted a finished tasty product and that who we provide to. If thats not what you want then thats fine.. No need to attack either.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Paul (21/6/14)

Gizmo said:


> Look @Paul No need to attack either.


 
It's a forum. A place to discuss and argue. It's not the local bar with your mates where most of your audience will agree with you or not say anything for fear of offending you.
Since Roman & Greek times it's been accepted that in a forum as long as arguments dont lead to personal attacks then stuff can be argued with great passion. It would seem that many people cannot distinguish what a personal attack is and isn't.
So here's a few examples;
"The market prices are a ripoff"	Not a personal attack.
"The stuff that XYZ vapours sells are a rip off" Personal attack if XYZ is a forum member.
"It's hard to tell the difference in taste between premium and DIY" Not a personal attack.
"Your taste buds must be messed up you haven't got a clue" Personal Attack.
A personal attack is when instead of arguing against what the poster had posted, you instead argue against the poster, accuse them of being stupid or misinformed or of breaking forum rules etc.

Reactions: Like 5 | Disagree 1


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## Gizmo (21/6/14)

Fair enough 

Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1


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## devdev (21/6/14)



Reactions: Dislike 1


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## ET (21/6/14)

what's that @duckduck , thought you were devdev'ing there for a second

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Oupa (21/6/14)

Its very easy... two types of customers exist:

1. The DIY'er that is happy to go through the motions of obtaining the necesary parts for a juice and then having the patience to come up with a juice recipe they enjoy, or copy other recipes.

2. Then there is the customer that cannot be bothered with DIY for various reasons, i.e. too busy, ease of use of ready to vape juices, etc.

We were all used to popping into any shop, buy a box of cigarettes, open it, light it and presto.... instant nicotine fix. So most ecig users carries on with the tradition of ease of use. Buy a bottle of juice, fill tank and vape away... instant nicotine fix.

Lastly... e-liquid in South Africa is on par with the rest of the world. Some countries (in Europe) are more expensive and other countries (like the States) have the whole range, from very cheap to very expensive.

One thing is for certain, about two years ago your main choices for easily available e-liquid in SA were: Twisp or Liqua. Today it has grown to an industry with many choices of brands, flavours, styles and price ranges. New vapors are really spoiled for choice!

Bottom line: You like to DIY and create your own flavour combinations while saving a buck... great! Or you like to sample different ready to use e-liquids because of ease of use and availability (and sometimes awesome quality/flavours) and pay an extra buck... also great! Personal choice and personal opinion, like with anything else.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 6 | Winner 2


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## Tom (21/6/14)

100% agreed at @Oupa 's statement. I am an option No. 2 vaper. convenient, no experiments needed. Full stop.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Silver (21/6/14)

Gizmo said:


> Look @Paul nobody is going to argue with that doing DIY is very cost effective, and Skyblue or Valley Vapor have you covered for that. However! Making a production line of juice that is legal has more costs then what meet the eye.
> 
> Firstly nicotine is a scheduled substance here in sunny SA. So for us at Vape King to make our own liquid we had to get it signed off by a chemist which luckily my brother is married to one. All our nicotine is produced locally, importing nicotine is a massive 50/50 chance. So really you cant take international pricing into account in my humble opnion.
> 
> ...



@Gizmo , don't stop making Pina Colada and Grape Soda. Am also looking forward to the 18 mg

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver (21/6/14)

Paul said:


> It's a forum. A place to discuss and argue. It's not the local bar with your mates where most of your audience will agree with you or not say anything for fear of offending you.
> Since Roman & Greek times it's been accepted that in a forum as long as arguments dont lead to personal attacks then stuff can be argued with great passion. It would seem that many people cannot distinguish what a personal attack is and isn't.
> So here's a few examples;
> "The market prices are a ripoff"	Not a personal attack.
> ...


 
I do think that passionate argument without personal attacks is healthy
It just takes some skill not to offend or feel offended.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Oupa (21/6/14)

Yeah I agree, I love the debates going on this forum. Very healthy for the industry!

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## crack2483 (21/6/14)

Keep calm

Shut up

And vape on. 




Now you can post troll face @duckduck @devdev


Not sure what you go by these days. 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alex (21/6/14)

I do wish to try http://www.bombies.com/nana-cream/ come on guys.

Reactions: Like 2


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## soonkia (21/6/14)

Part of the marketing out there is that I would save money if I switched.

The main reason I switched to vaping was because of the promissed savings. The health benefits are a bonus, but I wasn't really feeling negativly effects by smoking, so at no stage has it been a driver for me. But when I started researching vaping , I couldn't get the purported savings to match up - when a premium juice goes at R200 for 20ml.

The average person seems to vape between 2-3ml. So, it ends up costing you R20-R30 a day just on juice. I was smoking princeton at R20 a day. I currently vape about 4-5ml a day, so if I was buying premium juices, I'd be closer to R50 a day. That's R30 a day in additional costs  Maybe if I was a 40 a day smoker, then yeah, definatly worth it, but I wasnt.

So, at the moment I mix my own mostly, and will buy the odd juice just for a change up. I mix a kick ass cherry menthol juice that works me to about R1.50 a ml + about 30mins of my time once a week. 

The bad thing is the new little toys are eating up all my savings and a lot more.  

But at least I'm having fun mixing, building new coils, getting vapemail and the health benefits are kicking in.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Cat (21/6/14)

Same here, but i'd got to around 28-30 Princetons a day.

Reactions: Like 1


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## johan (21/6/14)

Smokes etc. cost me R70/day - that which I like to vape cost me close tot R120/day

Reactions: Like 2


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## Paul (22/6/14)

I used to have a small farm and essential oil business 10 years ago. We grew mainly lavender and extracted the oils and sold it on to the cosmetic industry.

I started the business after developing an extraction machine that used supercritical liquids. A substance is supercritical when it has the properties of a liquid and a gas at the same time. Liquids can carry large amounts of matter, like a river can sweep away large rocks, but they are not as good as a gas for penetrating the plant matter and removing stuff, if you use a supercritical liquid, it penetrates like a gas but can also carry large amounts of whatever you are trying to extract. I used liquid carbon dioxide as it leaves no harmful residues and no heat is required. Unlike traditional cold extraction methods you don't have to press anything which damages the cell structure of the plant which releases other harmful tars etc. It also takes seconds to complete and not hours and days like other cold pressing methods. Large companies like Coca Cola use these machines built large scale that cost millions.

Mixing a few liquids and bottling them really is money for jam, try planting the stuff, growing it and then extracting it if you think it's a mission.

The method for vaping liquids that we use today was first employed in smoke machines in discos in the late 70's.
They dump glycerin onto a hot coil and blow it out with a fan, so I'm not sure if SA or any other country or person could lay claim to pioneering this way of creating artificial smoke. In fact you could probably buy a disco smoke machine for less than some of the top mods and make the meanest vape known to man.

Given that many of the flavouring used today have been linked to hyperactivity and many other medical problems it seems crazy to stop smoking tobacco then replace it with concoctions that have many flavours added. If I told you I had a substance that was 100% natural and farmed organically with no pesticides etc which you could smoke, it might seem to be the way to go but that is what tobacco can be.

How your stomach digests chemicals and how your lungs process chemicals are worlds apart. Just because a flavour had been deemed safe for eating does not mean it is safe to vape. Popcorn lung being a good example.
You are probably taking more of a risk with your health by vaping with flavours than by smoking tobacco, remember that it took 25 years before the medical comunity declared smoking tobacco harmful. The situation is even worse with vaping as there is no legislation to protect the health of consumers and many of the companies pioneering the field have no expertise or qualifications in the preparation of these liquids.

You wont see any of the companies backing up claims made in forums such as this on their bottles and labelling, instead they use meaningless epitaphs such as "Premium".

It's a shame that a method of getting a nicotine fix without giving you lung cancer has been perverted so quickly into another high risk activity and it's no coincidence that the cost of vaping with a premium liquid is so similar to the cost of smoking regular cigarettes.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Optimistic 1


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## RevnLucky7 (22/6/14)

@PeterHarris See what happens when you go make fun on other forums


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## devdev (22/6/14)



Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tom (22/6/14)

@Paul interesting background, please let the forum know a bit more about your vaping journey too. How long have you smoked before turning to vaping? Are u feeling better health wise since then? I do, the whistle that seemed to have been implanted in my chest and kept me from falling asleep has disappeared. I have a better taste for good foods nowadays. I know that there might be some kind of undetected health risk from vaping too, but there might be none. Until this is established I am happy with having replaced cigarette smoking with vaping. Who knows....maybe one day I will not vape, or smoke....but right now I want a bit of pleasure. And vaping is one of my pleasures. I prefer this to having daily beers in front of the TV too.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Silver (22/6/14)

Paul said:


> How your stomach digests chemicals and how your lungs process chemicals are worlds apart. Just because a flavour had been deemed safe for eating does not mean it is safe to vape. Popcorn lung being a good example.
> You are probably taking more of a risk with your health by vaping with flavours than by smoking tobacco, remember that it took 25 years before the medical comunity declared smoking tobacco harmful. The situation is even worse with vaping as there is no legislation to protect the health of consumers and many of the companies pioneering the field have no expertise or qualifications in the preparation of these liquids.



Hi @Paul, you bring up an interesting yet disturbing issue
What makes it worse is that us vapers WANT to believe that vaping is a much healthier form of nicotine delivery.

I hear you that it took 25 years for medical specialists to declare smoking harmful but I would hope that research on vaping safety would be much quicker given the precedent of smoking.

We can only hope and keep our eyes and ears open on this topic

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## PeterHarris (22/6/14)

RevnLucky7 said:


> @PeterHarris See what happens when you go make fun on other forums


Wait what now - im missing somthing here-- what did i do now lol

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## RevnLucky7 (22/6/14)

The FDA has been testing e-cigs for much longer than they will have you know.
Many e-liquid companies now actually present samples of their products to the FDA for testing, as a certificate stating that the product is fairly save makes a fantastic decorative piece. The points you make are a fantastic read, but it's like a script to an X-files episode. Probable, yet highly unlikely backed by the facts that we have today. You're asuming none of us do our home work...

You think people in office would have allowed this giant to spin out of control as fast as it did and be happy with all the money they are losing out on tobacco taxes? Hell some people are only put into office if they can promise that the income from tobacco tax will not decrease. Smokers are now being forced to vape as the vape scene caused cigarette prices to triple literally overnight. It's very poetic.

They tried to nip this thing in the butt since day one. If there was something that could be found, they would have found it by now. Every now and then something does pop up, but if you see the product that was tested, I'm not surprised either.

So now, after all their trial and error they zeroed in on the last thing that leaves them with a foot to stand on. Nicotine. And innovation will always triumph. They wanted to regulate pre-filled cartridges. We stopped making pre-filled cartridges and turned to tanks. We were not allow to market it as a quit smoking product, we started calling them alternatives. They started putting it under the tobacco and related substances act, we asked how is it related?

Every Tom, Bob and Harry has a mod in USA these days. You see them everywhere. They can stall us, to cash in on a few more years of tax, and if they can't get it from tobacco they will make up for it with high duties on liquid nic, but they can't stop us. It's just way too late.

It didn't take specialists "25 years" to declare tobacco harmful. No one likes a pay cut. It took 25 years to put them under enough pressure to actually declare it. The actual test only took a minute.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## steve (22/6/14)



Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## devdev (22/6/14)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## Paul (22/6/14)

Tom said:


> @Paul interesting background, please let the forum know a bit more about your vaping journey too. How long have you smoked before turning to vaping? Are u feeling better health wise since then? I do, the whistle that seemed to have been implanted in my chest and kept me from falling asleep has disappeared. I have a better taste for good foods nowadays. I know that there might be some kind of undetected health risk from vaping too, but there might be none. Until this is established I am happy with having replaced cigarette smoking with vaping. Who knows....maybe one day I will not vape, or smoke....but right now I want a bit of pleasure. And vaping is one of my pleasures. I prefer this to having daily beers in front of the TV too.


 
First vaped about 3 years ago, imported everything, too much hassle and with duty it was more expensive than smoking. Was like trying to suck a golfball through a hosepipe for a good hit. Went back to normal smokes after 9 months. This time I had to stop, I'm 50 and I race sailboats, catching my breath was costing me too much time, If I didn't stop smoking I would have to stop racing. I also build boats and often have to wear a respirator which makes it harder to breath than normal and I was battling after only a few hours.

After 2 weeks I could work all day with a respirator on without any problem and sailing is a big difference. I'm done with smoking whether I continue vaping is another story.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Paul (22/6/14)

RevnLucky7 said:


> The FDA has been testing e-cigs for much longer than they will have you know.
> Many e-liquid companies now actually present samples of their products to the FDA for testing, as a certificate stating that the product is fairly save makes a fantastic decorative piece. The points you make are a fantastic read, but it's like a script to an X-files episode. Probable, yet highly unlikely backed by the facts that we have today. You're asuming none of us do our home work...
> 
> You think people in office would have allowed this giant to spin out of control as fast as it did and be happy with all the money they are losing out on tobacco taxes? Hell some people are only put into office if they can promise that the income from tobacco tax will not decrease. Smokers are now being forced to vape as the vape scene caused cigarette prices to triple literally overnight. It's very poetic.
> ...


 
There are plenty of papers questioning links between food additives especially flavours and colours that have been linked with hyperactivity and other medical problems.

Not the X files but the Australian government.

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Food_additives

Here's a huge list with flavours that can cause problems.

http://www.traditionaloven.com/articles/122/dangerous-food-additives-to-avoid

It's not whether you do your homework or not, it's whether the customer is able to establish that you have done your homework which involves some sort of standards and testing. If the cost of premium is 6 times the average, then there are always going to be people prepared to add whatever they can legally or illegally add to make it taste like premium.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/16/doctors-who-e-cigarettes-tighter-controls

Legislation is coming and vapers should welcome it, we will be able to compare apples with apples when choosing products.


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## Paul (22/6/14)

steve said:


>



Love the exorcist cat thing.


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## Yash (22/6/14)

Based on that list of of food additives to avoid, looks like the only safe thing to eat is organic meat and veggies. The funny thing is that almost all processed foods contain them. Eating a chocolate is just as bad as vaping based on the list. Funny no one is regulating or banning chocolates! 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Paul (22/6/14)

Yash said:


> Based on that list of of food additives to avoid, looks like the only safe thing to eat is organic meat and veggies. The funny thing is that almost all processed foods contain them. Eating a chocolate is just as bad as vaping based on the list. Funny no one is regulating or banning chocolates!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


 
You cant use tests carried out eating something to judge whether something is safe to vape.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Alex (22/6/14)

I strongly suggest you all watch this documentary I posted in another thread, I'll include it here for those who missed it. Seriously..watch this.


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## devdev (22/6/14)

Paul said:


> There are plenty of papers questioning *links between food additives especially flavours and colours that have been linked with hyperactivity and other medical problems.*
> 
> Here's *a huge list with flavours that can cause problems.*
> 
> http://www.traditionaloven.com/articles/122/dangerous-food-additives-to-avoid


 


Paul said:


> You cant use tests carried out eating something to judge whether something is safe to vape.


 
Then I must be honest, I have absolutely no idea what relevance that link is in your post.

We must, as you yourself have said, compare apples with apples. 

A list of food additives, based on your own line of argument, is not even worth considering since we are vaping it, yet you posted it in support of your argument.


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## Yash (22/6/14)

Paul said:


> You cant use tests carried out eating something to judge whether something is safe to vape.


 
At this point in time, the only thing that matters to me is that I'm off cigarettes and the related health issues that come with them. No one ever said that vaping is completely safe, but it's sure safer than smoking.

And until proper clinical tests have proven that vaping is indeed dangerous, I will continue to do so because it's my choice.

The saddest things are that cigarettes are still freely available even with the proven health risks and the government makes so much money off them.

It's time people started to focus on more pressing issues in life, like exhaust emissions from combustion engines and the rising levels of CO2 in the atmosphere and leave people that choose to vape and the 'premium' juice makers alone.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Paul (22/6/14)

duckduck said:


> Then I must be honest, I have absolutely no idea what relevance that link is in your post.
> 
> We must, as you yourself have said, compare apples with apples.
> 
> A list of food additives, based on your own line of argument, is not even worth considering since we are vaping it, yet you posted it in support of your argument.


 
Exactly, liquid need to be tested for suitability to vape not eat. But depending on whether the additive is toxic to the human body as a whole or if it interferes with the digestive system only, will give you a good indication by looking at the list whether it is safe to vape. 

My argument is that liquid suppliers do not have expertise, facilities or will to test whether something is safe or not and as there are no goverment tests, the public is left unprotected.

Reactions: Disagree 3


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## Paul (22/6/14)

Yash said:


> At this point in time, the only thing that matters to me is that I'm off cigarettes and the related health issues that come with them. No one ever said that vaping is completely safe, but it's sure safer than smoking.
> 
> And until proper clinical tests have proven that vaping is indeed dangerous, I will continue to do so because it's my choice.
> 
> ...


 
You can only make a qualified choice if you have all the information. Without legislation you will not know what you are choosing and nothing will legally compel the maker to tell you.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 2


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## Yash (22/6/14)

The thing we are missing here is that even though the government has tested all the 'dangerous additives' on that list, it hasn't stopped them from still using them!

As long as they are making money from it, it doesn't look like they care about 'protecting' the public.

So lets skip forward, the testing happens and there are substances that are deemed dangerous in juices.

Then what? The government regulates the manufacture but do you really think they will still not use the substances? I think the answer to that is quite obvious.

Why spend money making safer alternative substances when you can make cheaper but dangerous ones?

In the end, it's all about the money.

Which brings us back to the recurring theme in your posts @Paul, how much money 'premium' juice manufacturers are making here in SA.


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## RevnLucky7 (22/6/14)

Paul said:


> It's not whether you do your homework or not, it's whether the customer is able to establish that you have done your homework which involves some sort of standards and testing. If the cost of premium is 6 times the average, then there are always going to be people prepared to add whatever they can legally or illegally add to make it taste like premium.
> 
> Legislation is coming and vapers should welcome it, we will be able to compare apples with apples when choosing products.


 
You're all over the place. I'm having a hard time staying on point with you. You've just contradicted your argument and I really think you're grasping at straws. You're also generalizing, picking up a whole of feathers trying to convince us it's a duck.

While at first your concerns seemed to be the pricing of premiums liquids you also dismissed the fact that there is such a thing.

Now you're concerned that some suppliers might be adding whatever they can add to make it taste like premium in an effort to achieve the same retail price? So you're acknowledging premium brands? I was under the impression judging by your first posts that there was no such thing. And you're fearfull of sub par brands introducing ingredients that might be harmful in an attempt to milk you for money?

Premium brands in SA are selling for R250-R400 currently. All locally produced liquids are at R120-R150. Who's commiting this fraud you write of?

And if you're upset now, what do you think is going to happen once e-Liquid becomes fully regulated? You'll be buying Liqua products at tripple the rate they sell for now, and the guys who actually make better liquids as small business entities will not be able to meet the financial requirements to produce liquids under the requirements set by the powers that be, as labs and high tech will probably be involved, will be forced out of the picture. A sad day for everyone. You'll be buying liquids you prefer to vape on the street corner with crack whores and drug dealers at five times the price than what you do now even if they met all the implemented requirements.



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## PeterHarris (22/6/14)

this thread is stupid - i like to vape delicious flavours. FULL STOP!

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## devdev (22/6/14)



Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## Tom (22/6/14)

calling for strict regulation? tobacco/pharma will be smiling again...all the way to the bank! What are we? little children who need to be guided strictly?

who would be doing the regulation in SA? the government? they should be still looking at their other 999 obstacles....those are far more harmful then a possible risk by vaping.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Paul (22/6/14)

Yash said:


> The thing we are missing here is that even though the government has tested all the 'dangerous additives' on that list, it hasn't stopped them from still using them!
> .


 
Yes, which is how it should be, they shouldn't be telling us what we can and cant put in our bodies, but they should be making sure that we know what exactly what it is and if there are any known risks.


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## PeterHarris (22/6/14)

are u a​

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## devdev (22/6/14)

I think I possibly finally see what @Paul is on about, although it has taken a while to get there.

Let's say your BMW needs new brake pads and discs. You go to BMW and they say no problem, but it will cost R15k. You get another quote from Crankshaft Visagie's Motoring Emporium. Crankshaft undertakes to do the work personally, for a cost of R 7500, but says it is an easy job, and if you want, he can sell you the spares to do the work yourself for R 3500, because he is a bit busy at the moment.

You have three options:

1. Premium price (Guaranteed parts, genuine BMW, qualified technician)
2. Crankshaft Visagie (Comes with his 'workmanship' guarantee, but nothing on the parts. He wants you to trust him since must know what he is doing if he owns a motoring business)
3. DIY Option (No guarantee, no qualifications so no assurances that it is correct, assumes that your time is worthless)

So there are three different prices, offering 3 different kinds of customer experience, and three different after market options. Each customer will decide which experience best suits their needs.

It would seem that Paul:

- dislikes BMW for claiming that the work they do is premium, and more so for the price being at a premium and the upper end of the market.

- does not like Crankshaft Visagie, because he is, after all, a backyard mechanic and other than running a motoring business there is nothing which says his services or the parts he uses are actually any good.

- finds the price of the DIY option attractive, and even explored buying the parts on the internet and importing them, but he luckily found another motor service centre, who were able to sell and fit the parts at R4000, a slight premium above the DIY option.

Although I must say it seems as though after having chosen that option, Paul would now like to 'educate' the market, motivated to do so by some unknown reason.

I also see that Paul wishes government to compel premium manufacturers to disclose the contents of their products - I agree this would not be a bad thing. I think what is really annoying him is that BMW/Premium juice suppliers are not actually able to prove that their product is manufactured from top quality ingredients, sourced responsibly, and designed and manufactured by experienced and qualified individuals.

(The analogy DOES NOT apply to local vendors, and in no way am I implying any form of shoddy quality by any of the vendors on the forum. I am also not implying they are backyard operators, or lacking in experience, or that they have not done extensive research)

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 7


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## Paul (22/6/14)

RevnLucky7 said:


> You're all over the place. I'm having a hard time staying on point with you. You've just contradicted your argument and I really think you're grasping at straws. You're also generalizing, picking up a whole of feathers trying to convince us it's a duck.
> 
> While at first your concerns seemed to be the pricing of premiums liquids you also dismissed the fact that there is such a thing.
> 
> ...


 
1. The fact that I can buy from both international and local suppliers for only R20 for 10ml while as you say the vast majority of local suppliers charge between R120- R150 shows how much local suppliers are overcharging.

2. You say it is because the quality is better, but there are no standards of quality or tests so you cannot prove that to be true.

3. You say it is because the consumer can simply tell it tastes better, I say that could be because of flavour enhancers that are harmful or because of conformation bias.

No matter how confused you may be, I am sitting here vaping some excellent e-juice supplied by SkyBlue Vapours that cost only R20 for 10ml and as you cannot prove that any of the liquids that cost considerably more are any better, I would say that I am correct.

You need to show that the other local suppliers have a better quality or tasting product to prove me wrong.

Please do so.


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## Yash (22/6/14)

@Paul, the reason I think your argument is flawed is because taste is extremely subjective. To you that may be excellent juice but to me it might be average. And in the same instance the juice that I think is excellent may not be your cup of tea.

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Reactions: Agree 2


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## steve (22/6/14)

Again DIY vs ready to vape. Not a fair comparison . 

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## devdev (22/6/14)

steve said:


> Again DIY vs ready to vape. Not a fair comparison .
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk


 
Let's compare Rabbits with Jet Fighters... perfectly logical

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## steve (22/6/14)

Im with Harris. Its all a wind up 

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Reactions: Agree 1


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## devdev (22/6/14)



Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Paul (22/6/14)

duckduck said:


> I think what is really annoying him is that BMW/Premium juice suppliers are not actually able to prove that their product is manufactured from top quality ingredients, sourced responsibly, and designed and manufactured by experienced and qualified individuals.


 
Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

It's also very unfair on the supplier who is supplying for a fair price.


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## Gazzacpt (22/6/14)

I wasn't going to comment but here goes. I buy local, international and I diy. 

I enjoy diy because I like to tinker and I sometimes come out with a winner. Still it costs me a fair bit as some times a batch is just unvapable. I stick to unflavoured and menthol mostly as a daily vape.

Local juice I have found a good few gems. VM4 and VM choc mint being 2 of my favorites made buy a awesome guy a vaper himself who vapes the juice he produces it costs me R120 for 30ml and its a bargain of note I would happily pay more for those if I had to.

Internationally there are just to many. Nicoticket is my favorite so far and their juice is really on a different level that costs me about R200 per 30ml and is well worth it. 

Now after trying diy myself and spending a fair bit on different concentrates and raw materials I have a new appreciation of what it takes to create a great juice. These folks work hard and keeping it up is no joke. I don't think I am being ripped off.

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## Yash (22/6/14)

Paul said:


> Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> It's also very unfair on the supplier who is supplying for a fair price.


I think you should tackle Twisp then, their prices are straight daylight robbery.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Alex (22/6/14)

This reminds me of the story I heard about a Native American Trading Store somewhere in the Wild West. So this tourist couple are admiring all the wooden carvings on display, now the old store owner notices the husbands confused look, and moves over to enquire.

"Can I be of any assistance" asks the store owner, "Well, We really like the large Buffalo carving, but I can't understand why the one on the left is only $120, and the one right next to it is going for $500, they look exactly the same to me." replied the tourist. "Well it's like this" answered the trader, "They are the same, but the reason we have a more expensive one, is simply because some people like the $150 carving, and some prefer the one for $500."

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Paul (22/6/14)

Well you could prove me wrong.

Have blind taste trails.

20 different juices from cheapest to the most expensive. In un- branded containers.

100 x vapers asked to rate.

100 x smokers who dont vape ask to rate

Could be fun, everyone could send a sample juice to a single location, then the juice is divided up and sent to the participants who fill in an online form.

Numbers on containers different for each participant so no confering online.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Yash (22/6/14)

There's really no need for that, you have your opinions on what you prefer to vape, as do I. You are happy with your DIY R20 for 10ml and I'm happy with my ready to vape R120 for 30ml Vapour Mountain juices. I think we've all had our fair share atop the soap box. Each to his own now and one last thing left to do, enjoy the Vape!

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## RevnLucky7 (22/6/14)

Paul said:


> 1. The fact that I can buy from both international and local suppliers for only R20 for 10ml while as you say the vast majority of local suppliers charge between R120- R150 shows how much local suppliers are overcharging.
> 2. You say it is because the quality is better, but there are no standards of quality or tests so you cannot prove that to be true.
> 3. You say it is because the consumer can simply tell it tastes better, I say that could be because of flavour enhancers that are harmful or because of conformation bias.
> No matter how confused you may be, I am sitting here vaping some excellent e-juice supplied by SkyBlue Vapours that cost only R20 for 10ml and as you cannot prove that any of the liquids that cost considerably more are any better, I would say that I am correct.
> ...


 
ROFL...

I used to love Snow Queen Vodka. Based on what you just wrote I might as well have stuck with Russian Bear, since my taste buds must be flawed. The distillation methods and ingredients obviously have no impact on quality?

I'll write this again and please take note of this:
MANY LIQUID COMPANIES OUT THERE ARE USING UNIQUE EXTRACTION METHODS AND ADVANCED STEEPING PROCCESSES to acquire the taste they present you with in their product. The fact that you do not know this and still compare DIY products to these guys with such arrogance really tells a story about your perspective and knowledge on this topic and it's becoming rather frustrating because you really don't know. Some of the guys involved in this debate are very knowledgeable on the topic and writing them off because of conformation bias... Really? A little bigoted, don't you think?

And how can you use the fact that flavour enhancers are harmful to justify your argument when you just argued there's no way of knowing. And yes, I can say: because the consumer says it tastes better, because I've never really bought e-liquid based on how fast it removes rust from my car.

The most important thing here is that you are happy with what you are vaping. I've been around the vape scene for quite some time and I too have tried many liquids from various origins. My company started based on the gap that I personally found in between some brands.

I really wish I could show you what it takes to produce 1000 bottles of something like Castle Long Reserve from scratch. You might have a new opinion on paying R20 for 10ml's. I just don't understand how you are comparing the two.


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## Paul (22/6/14)

Well if there are no government tests to help vapers choose the best quality then vapers should conduct their own tests and publish the results. It would help newbies get the best value for money and companies that produce great juice would prosper.


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## devdev (23/6/14)

Round in circles the thread goes...


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## RevnLucky7 (23/6/14)

Paul said:


> Well if there are no government tests to help vapers choose the best quality then vapers should conduct their own tests and publish the results. It would help newbies get the best value for money and companies that produce great juice would prosper.


 
I don't demand tests on every single bottle of wine or vodka I sample before I buy it. I know what I'm after based on my experience with the products and I purchase based on what I think is a quality finished product. I'm not surprised when my selections come with a price tag either because I knew they would based on what I was tasting.

I don't stock the lines that I do because they have pretty labels on them. I'm very familiar with the product, its production phases and in some instances I have met the creators personally. They're not some unknown brand sourced from somewhere in an effort to make a quick buck and this is why I defend them in this debate.

Comparing DIY to them really is ridiculous and I still do want to know which products you are using as a reference to make your claims?


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## Paul (23/6/14)

RevnLucky7 said:


> ROFL...
> 
> I used to love Snow Queen Vodka. Based on what you just wrote I might as well have stuck with Russian Bear, since my taste buds must be flawed. The distillation methods and ingredients obviously have no impact on quality?
> 
> ...


 
I suggest scientific blind taste trails to prove whose quality is best, you shout, I must this, I must that....and you suggest I am a bigot.
The problem I have with your argument is you are making an appeal to authority with talk of advanced this and advanced that...but it is wrapped up in a, not even concealed, personal attack. I therefore have to assume your argument is invalid as someone genuinely involved in the scientific community would not make such a mistake.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## ShaneW (23/6/14)

Paul were you a boxer and BB smoker by any chance?

Reactions: Like 1


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## RevnLucky7 (23/6/14)

Paul said:


> I suggest scientific blind taste trails to prove whose quality is best, you shout, I must this, I must that....and you suggest I am a bigot.
> The problem I have with your argument is you are making an appeal to authority with talk of advanced this and advanced that...but it is wrapped up in a, not even concealed, personal attack. I therefore have to assume your argument is invalid as someone genuinely involved in the scientific community would not make such a mistake.


 
Ummm... I haven't shouted anything. I typed most of it and I did not demand anything from you either. You MUST not do anything other than enjoy your vape!

You brought points to the tabel I did not agree with and this is a forum after all. My debate is 100% aimed at the points you make in your posts, not at you personally.

You blamed many of our responses on conformation bias... I do not take it personnaly that you consider me closed minded. My response was simply that your statement displayed abstinate belief in the superiority of your own opinions when you so easily dismiss the opinions of pretty much everyone else who cared to offer an input in the thread. While you have some good points you don't answer many questions and contradict many of the things you write. It's as if you your ultimate goal is to really just kick up dust and this has been noted by others who can see that this is classic troll behaviour.

If you feel that this thread is personal I will gladly subtract myself from it, for I'm having a hard time following where you are going with it most of the time.


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## steve (23/6/14)

Hey @Paul don't you think you should test a few differant juices out first ? Do correct me if im wrong but from what I'm gathering you haven't ? I myself am far from a juice expert but I have done my own research. I've been vaping about two years. in this time I've tried many juice vendors from cheap to expensive from international to local to DIY and the list goes on. Therefore there is no need for me to now start doing blind taste trials. I'll just keep on with my research which is highly enjoyable and share my experiances on the forum when I think it can help someone else. There are many people much more dedicated than me who review every single juice they vape in detail so others can get a perspective, i find this highly commendable. 
All the info is already here for the guys, new and old . I learn so much from this great forum every day. 

I would respectfully throw your challenge back at you mate. Do some taste trials yourself, use the reviews on the forum as a basis of what to get and share your experiance as you go !

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 2


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## capetocuba (23/6/14)

Like @Gazzacpt says I buy imported premium, local, local premium and have started DIY. I am happy to pay R250.00 for 30ml for premium, I'm happy to pay R120.00 - R180.00 for the local juices. I can make my DIY for a lot less than that. Vaping is fun, its a hobby. *Nobody has a right to question or judge on how I spend the money I earn*. As so many have said, I have a unique set of taste buds and I buy what tastes good. 
Right now these eciggie forums around the world help us noobs & experienced vaper find these gems.

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## Paul (23/6/14)

RevnLucky7 said:


> Ummm... I haven't shouted anything. I typed most of it and I did not demand anything from you either. You MUST not do anything other than enjoy your vape!
> 
> You brought points to the tabel I did not agree with and this is a forum after all. My debate is 100% aimed at the points you make in your posts, not at you personally.
> 
> ...


 
A few have posted in this thread how they struggle to afford to buy quality juice.
That's not right.
I do not believe that mixing a few liquids, no matter how you well you make it sound like a scene from Harry Potter, can justify the prices being charged.
Deciding that because the customer was being charged x amount for previous product that you are some how entitled to charge x amount for new product, even though new product costs 1/100th of x is wrong.
Maybe we could crowd source an affordable quality juice, use blind taste trails to decide the taste. Crowd sourced and crowd participation in the making.


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## RevnLucky7 (23/6/14)

Paul said:


> A few have posted in this thread how they struggle to afford to buy quality juice.


 
Okay so we're accepting that there's various tiers in liquids? If so I will play...



Paul said:


> A few have posted in this thread how they struggle to afford to buy quality juice. That's not right.


 
This is the way of our capatalistic society unfortunately. I too would like to own a Ferrari and I agree - the fact that I will never be able to is not right.



Paul said:


> I do not believe that mixing a few liquids, no matter how you well you make it sound like a scene from Harry Potter, can justify the prices being charged.


 
The justification of the prices alone aside, I tried to provide reasoning to the differences.

Simple layout:

A Simple DIY: Buy extract ingredients. Measure it off into a bottle. Vape

Five Pawns Reserve: All raw materials are bought and the flavors are then extracted. So while you might buy a Madagaskar Vanilla Bean flavoring that is most likely synthtic for R30 per 10ml, how much would aquiring some of these actual raw ingredients cost before you've even started the extraction proccess. Once all the flavors are extracted it is mixed and left to steep in Oak barrels for a period of time. Check the price on Oak barrels. I've tried various liquids steeped in Oak, mainly from House of Liquids and it has a taste that can not be duplicated using a simple DIY. This proccess ups the price and hereby we touch on justification.

Many of these companies all have their own little secrets and ways of doing things that sets them apart in a VERY competitive market. Not all of them! But many of them.



Paul said:


> Maybe we could crowd source an affordable quality juice, use blind taste trails to decide the taste. Crowd sourced and crowd participation in the making.


 
@ShaneW is working on something similar, although it's not trails. Just a chance for everyone to try a variety of stuff. I get many liquid samples in from American suppliers on a weekly basis and MANY of them have not made "my cut". There ARE suppliers out there who chase up prices with pretty marketing frills but they are easily weeded out very quickly purely based on taste. A mass produced DIY project is no different from a small one. But you can't generalize and assume they are all the same without having tried a variety.

And this was the only point I was ever trying to make.

Some of these guys have something quite unique and I respect the way that the production of liquid has evolved into something that is no longer ONLY a simple proccess.

A mass trail test can't work as taste is very subjective. This is a journey every vapor takes on his own and the decision on whether or not you are willing to spend more on a certain liquid is yours alone.

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## Gazzacpt (23/6/14)

Paul said:


> A few have posted in this thread how they struggle to afford to buy quality juice.
> That's not right.
> I do not believe that mixing a few liquids, no matter how you well you make it sound like a scene from Harry Potter, can justify the prices being charged.
> Deciding that because the customer was being charged x amount for previous product that you are some how entitled to charge x amount for new product, even though new product costs 1/100th of x is wrong.
> Maybe we could crowd source an affordable quality juice, use blind taste trails to decide the taste. Crowd sourced and crowd participation in the making.


I think maybe you miss the point. I vape diy unflavoured or menthol during the day for mindless vaping and for my nic intake. Then I have my treat juices or "premium" juices, those are for my enjoyment its like taking a break and having a really good coffee or lighting a good cigar. This is something I enjoy and I gladly pay for that enjoyment. 

As to the blind tasting thing thats how I found most of my juice. A fellow vapor will go try this it will knock my socks off and I say hey whats that. Thats how I found Frenilla didn't know what I was tasting at the time but wanted to get that, after he told me what it was then I remember seeing reviews and hype about it and it was justified.

It took me 3 months to actually start tasting juice properly thats how long my tastebuds took to recover to that point. Before that juice was just juice. Now that I can taste properly and I know what good e liquid is all about its a whole new world the subtle flavours and complexities of a really good liquid is something else. 

Anyway I hope someday you will come to appreciate it, if you don't you missing half the fun. I have seen some recipes for what may sound like a simple juice and there may be up to 8 different concentrates in it. Also these guys doing net juices its alot of work doing that extract. I've been at this diy thing for 6 months or more now and have not been able to create a really good complex juice yet. And by complex I mean a simple well balanced mix of 4 flavours. I've cracked 3 but still need to tweak the undertones and have to wait until steaped add something wait added to much wait try something else. It really is an art. 

Here ends my participation in this thread 

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## Gazzacpt (23/6/14)

Paul said:


> A few have posted in this thread how they struggle to afford to buy quality juice.
> That's not right.
> I do not believe that mixing a few liquids, no matter how you well you make it sound like a scene from Harry Potter, can justify the prices being charged.
> Deciding that because the customer was being charged x amount for previous product that you are some how entitled to charge x amount for new product, even though new product costs 1/100th of x is wrong.
> Maybe we could crowd source an affordable quality juice, use blind taste trails to decide the taste. Crowd sourced and crowd participation in the making.


I think maybe you miss the point. I vape diy unflavoured or menthol during the day for mindless vaping and for my nic intake. Then I have my treat juices or "premium" juices, those are for my enjoyment its like taking a break and having a really good coffee or lighting a good cigar. This is something I enjoy and I gladly pay for that enjoyment. 

As to the blind tasting thing thats how I found most of my juice. A fellow vapor will go try this it will knock my socks off and I say hey whats that. Thats how I found Frenilla didn't know what I was tasting at the time but wanted to get that, after he told me what it was then I remember seeing reviews and hype about it and it was justified.

It took me 3 months to actually start tasting juice properly thats how long my tastebuds took to recover to that point. Before that juice was just juice. Now that I can taste properly and I know what good e liquid is all about its a whole new world the subtle flavours and complexities of a really good liquid is something else. 

Anyway I hope someday you will come to appreciate it, if you don't you missing half the fun. I have seen some recipes for what may sound like a simple juice and there may be up to 8 different concentrates in it. Also these guys doing net juices its alot of work doing that extract. I've been at this diy thing for 6 months or more now and have not been able to create a really good complex juice yet. And by complex I mean a simple well balanced mix of 4 flavours. I've cracked 3 but still need to tweak the undertones and have to wait until steaped add something wait added to much wait try something else. It really is an art. 

Here ends my participation in this thread 

Sent from my GT-I9190 using Tapatalk

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## RevnLucky7 (23/6/14)

Gazzacpt said:


> Here ends my participation in this thread


 
I'm bugging out too. Apologies if something I wrote seemed personal, I too like a good debate and I'm very passionate about liquids. I think this thread contains enough info and perspectives regarding the topic. Anything more would be beating a dead duck.

I hope some of it is useful. Like I wrote earlier. The most important thing is vaping what you like. One of my all time favorites is Dekang Peanut Butter. 99% of the people who tried it hate it. But who cares when I'm vaping it? Looking at it like that from a vendors perspective - there's no such thing as a flavor that won't sell. Question we have to ask ourselves is will it sell at the price point that we sell it for?

And as a consumer: Will you pay for a liquid what you did again after trying it? If the answer is yes, the price is justified.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## devdev (23/6/14)

RevnLucky7 said:


> beating a dead duck.


 
There will most certainly be NONE of that around here

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## Fickie (28/6/14)

So I didn't go through the whole 6 pages and my small 2cents. I only vape DIY. I supply to my immediate family, even 'mastered' my own made version of 'Choc99' and another nameless one they like, which we all enjoy and there is not one part of me that sees me selling juice. Honestly, the R120 I feel compelled to sell it at after Vapour Mountain's great juices at said price (and since I am using their flavours) it is just not worth the effort.

I do think f I could slightly automate, it might be better but still not jump at the oportunity stuff, my family already have to beg me to make up for them. It is quite intensive to be 95% consistent oevr and over and over....

Reactions: Like 4


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## devdev (28/6/14)

Fickie said:


> So I didn't go through the whole 6 pages and my small 2cents. I only vape DIY. I supply to my immediate family, even 'mastered' my own made version of 'Choc99' and another nameless one they like, which we all enjoy and there is not one part of me that sees me selling juice. Honestly, the R120 I feel compelled to sell it at after Vapour Mountain's great juices at said price (and since I am using their flavours) it is just not worth the effort.
> 
> I do think f I could slightly automate, it might be better but still not jump at the oportunity stuff, my family already have to beg me to make up for them. It is quite intensive to be 95% consistent oevr and over and over....


 
Please share your recipes with Oupa's concetrates @Fickie, if you are happy to of course.

http://www.ecigssa.co.za/forums/diy-liquid/

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Rex Smit (30/6/14)

RevnLucky7 said:


> That sounds like a fantastic juice line.
> 
> Can I pre-order now?


yes..me too


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## 360twin (2/7/14)

Quite interesting reading this, and both sides of the arguement (?) carry some merit.

I'm a DIY vaper, mainly because I have simple tastes and can manage basic flavours easily. I also for some reason prefer Menthol in anything I vape, and it would defeat the object to add this to a premium e-juice 
Comparing the cost of pre-made juices to the cost of the required components does produce a distorted picture. To use an analogy, it's a bit like making the same comparrison with a house - the cost difference is all in the doing.

I make for myself, my wife and a mate, and will mix at the most about 5 to 6 30ml bottles at one time, possibly every 2 to 3 weeks. I generally mix plain flavours that can be combined afterwards, except for my wife who likes Vanilla in her Menthol. I do this in my kitchen on a clean surface, and am careful not to contaminate one component with another. I add the Nic last, and wash whatever I use for this (including my hands) immediately afterwards. I then write the flavours and date on masking tape and stick it on the relevant bottles, and put them in the cupboard. Sorted.

Now imagine doing this on a commercial scale. Firstly, the kitchen would not do - a dedicated mixing room would be required (unless you don't mind an accidental bit of tomato sauce in your vape), Secondly, the equipment I have would not do either - I use 2 or 3 different size syringes to measure components, rinsing between uses. This would be totally impractical on a larger scale, and not sufficiently accurate. Thirdly, nicotene is extremely dangerous to handle, potentially lethal. With the small amounts I may accidently expose myself to, I'm sure the risk is low; when it comes to large quantites on a regular (daily?) basis, the risk is multiplied exponentially.

Lastly, consistency of the result. I mix 12% flavour in my berry juices, but so what if it ends up being 11.5%. I probably never get exact ratios as I am limited to the accuracy of my syringe (graduated in 0.25ml increments) and my precise eyeball. This doesn't worry me, but a discerning palate would tell the difference. This would become a huge issue with complex juices, with the outcome depending more on pure luck rather than skill.

I won't even touch on the marketing of the juices as I have no experience with this, but I imagine this adding another dimension of cost implications and other unknown issues.

I haven't tried a lot of pre-made juices (Hangseng, Liqua, Twisp), but have never had one that made a good impression (perhaps my taste buds are not that sophisticated, or have been compromised by decades of smoking). My simple berry/cherry/fruit flavours on the other hand, with a bit of VM Menthol, are great. And at a cost of around R1.00/ml affordable for me and my wife's consumption of ~12ml/day.

Are SoV's juices (as an example) overpriced? Simple answer really - are people buying them?

Whatever floats your boat - just keep on vaping

Reactions: Like 6


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## ET (2/7/14)

[QUOTE=" Thirdly, nicotene is extremely dangerous to handle, potentially lethal. With the small amounts I may accidently expose myself to, I'm sure the risk is low; when it comes to large quantites on a regular (daily?) basis, the risk is multiplied exponentially.
[/QUOTE]

no nicotine is not that dangerous to a grown adult human being. yes children and small pets, there are dangers but unless you're gonna be mixing with over 100 mg/ml nicotine people need to stop stressing. it is a toxic chemical yes but science boffins have shown us it's not as scary or dangerous, not even remotely so, as people think


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## 360twin (2/7/14)

@denizenx : sure, that's probably true for most people, but it is also a carcinogen which adds to the risk of exposure.

A quick search produced the following two examples of expert opinion:

Forbes: if I quote from the article: "_Ingestion or skin exposure to small amounts of such solutions, ranging from one teaspoon to a tablespoon based on body weight and skin morphology, carries with it the potential for serious toxicity or even death._"
Wikipedia: similarly: "_Spilling a high concentration of nicotine onto the skin can cause intoxication or even death, since nicotine readily passes into the bloodstream following dermal contact._" The article also includes a passage on possible carcogenic affects of direct contact.
Not wanting to start a debate on this issue, also not knowing enough about the topic to do so, I was merely pointing out that there are possibly serious health risks to the continuous handling of nicotene-containing fluid, perhaps not to yourself, but maybe to family members.

The risk is probably very low in the concentrations that are commonly used in most e-juices, but this risk is increased with continuous use, particularly if the the correct safety precautions are ignored.

To consider it not even remotely dangerous is perhaps unwise considering the amount of evidence that can be found that contradicts this. I would think that most e-juice manufacturers would treat it as a highly toxic substance, even if it isn't really as bad as that, because of the possible effects of continuous exposure over a period of time.

Nobody was concerned about butter flavouring in popcorn until workers started dying of Diacetyl-induced Bronchiolitis Obliterans, then it suddenly became an issue. Direct exposure to nicotene has never been much of a possibilty for the general public before vaping came along, so much is probably still to be learned.

It would be somewhat ironic to die of a nicotene overdose after giving up smoking for a healthier alternative.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ET (2/7/14)

360twin said:


> @denizenx : sure, that's probably true for most people, but it is also a carcinogen which adds to the risk of exposure.
> 
> A quick search produced the following two examples of expert opinion:
> 
> ...


 
popcorn lung scares the crap outa me for sure. i'm just much less scared of nicotine poising because here on the forum there has been several articles posted about it's relative non killyness but as you say, better safe than sorry


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## Andre (2/7/14)

360twin said:


> @denizenx : sure, that's probably true for most people, but it is also a carcinogen which adds to the risk of exposure.
> 
> A quick search produced the following two examples of expert opinion:
> 
> ...


From what I have read nicotine in itself is not a carcinogen, but I agree that caution is in order when handling it, escpecially in quantity, which is your argument.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## 360twin (3/7/14)

denizenx said:


> popcorn lung scares the crap outa me for sure. ...


 
Me too! And yet depite the warnings about Acetoin possibly forming minute amounts of Diacetyl, flavours like Vanilla Custard remain enormously popular. Maybe the possible danger adds to the appeal?



Andre said:


> From what I have read nicotine in itself is not a carcinogen, ...


 
I've also read that excess Nicotene intake may directly result in Thyroid cancer, seeing as this gland naturally produces Nicotene unless the body has an over-supply of it from another source. This may not fit the precise definition of a carcinogen, but the result would be the same.

The trouble is there is very little absolute certainty of what does or doesn't cause cancer, it can only be proven statistically which activities should be considered 'high risk'. And although vaping is a damn site healthier than smoking, it isn't as risk-free as most of us would like to believe.

Realistically though, you can be as health-concious as possible and still accidently walk in front of a bus  As I used to say to non-smokers when I still smoked: "One day you are going to feel damn silly dying of NOTHING!"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Divisibleby0 (28/7/14)

dragontw said:


> I have notebooks filled with recipes, so I have no problem in sharing a few of them. It feels great when I get a PM from someone that has made one of my recipes and loves it.


 
So would you mind sharing some with me then ?  I really enjoy the twisp tobacco #1 flavour so if you have a recipe that tastes like that, feel free to share


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## Andre (28/7/14)

Divisibleby0 said:


> So would you mind sharing some with me then ?  I really enjoy the twisp tobacco #1 flavour so if you have a recipe that tastes like that, feel free to share


Most welcome to the forum. If you feel like it, please introduce yourself at the end of this thread: http://www.ecigssa.co.za/threads/introduce-yourselves.24/
Some of @dragontw's recipes to be found here: http://www.ecigssa.co.za/threads/dragontws-recipes.2716/
And some recipes from others on that forum as well.
Happy vaping.

Reactions: Like 2


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