# Short of breath



## Reaper

Hey this is abit off topic,,
But just curious and wondering if you could help,

So been using cue during the day and still ciggs now and then,


Yesterday I started to use a friends mod aswell,..
So it was cue (MTl) and at times dl with his mod

After a few hours started to feel short of breath or rather the feeling of not able to take deep enough breaths..

I remember few years back when I started vaping,the same thing happened to me,that time was using vap mob intense strawberry,

This time around was using nvc trinity.

Could it be the direct lung hits that’s causing it?

Could it be the juice?since it happens with 2 different juices ?

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## Silver

making this thread to house a post that @Reaper posted in another thread.
Will move it here and when done it will appear above this one

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## Silver

Hi @Reaper 
It may well be that you're not accustomed to the direct lung hits.

Not sure if its the juice but to test that you could try a few more and see. 

Perhaps try stick to MTL for a while and see if the shortness of breath goes away.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Room Fogger

Reaper said:


> Hey this is abit off topic,,
> But just curious and wondering if you could help,
> 
> So been using cue during the day and still ciggs now and then,
> 
> 
> Yesterday I started to use a friends mod aswell,..
> So it was cue (MTl) and at times dl with his mod
> 
> After a few hours started to feel short of breath or rather the feeling of not able to take deep enough breaths..
> 
> I remember few years back when I started vaping,the same thing happened to me,that time was using vap mob intense strawberry,
> 
> This time around was using nvc trinity.
> 
> Could it be the direct lung hits that’s causing it?
> 
> Could it be the juice?since it happens with 2 different juices ?


Hi there @Reaper , I am what you could call a chain vaper, alternating between not so restricted MTL and then restricted DL. I sometimes get that feeling as well if I have vaped a lot. Imho it may be because you are used to the Cue, and the DL might have been just too much. I’m sure the feeling will recede once you are just on the Cue. Please keep us updated on how you feel please, I would like to know if my suspicion regarding it having been too much is correct.

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## jm10

Room Fogger said:


> Hi there @Reaper , I am what you could call a chain vaper, alternating between not so restricted MTL and then restricted DL. I sometimes get that feeling as well if I have vaped a lot. Imho it may be because you are used to the Cue, and the DL might have been just too much. I’m sure the feeling will recede once you are just on the Cue. Please keep us updated on how you feel please, I would like to know if my suspicion regarding it having been too much is correct.



I get it on a few big inhales of nic salts, could be nic related?


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## Trishan Gounden

I get this feeling sometimes as well, to me I think it mostly occurs if I've been chain vaping too much (DL sub ohm) or take too many successive pulls from a nic salt device. This causes a bit of a nic rush and shortness in breath. Largely think its attributed to the nic rush.

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## GSM500

Trishan Gounden said:


> I get this feeling sometimes as well, to me I think it mostly occurs if I've been chain vaping too much (DL sub ohm) or take too many successive pulls from a nic salt device. This causes a bit of a nic rush and shortness in breath. Largely think its attributed to the nic rush.


Nic salts makes me short of breath and irritates my lungs. I just can't handle the stuff.

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## Daniel

@Reaper if you are still smoking cigarettes you might have the seesaw effect going on in your lungs as when you smoke it causes the avioli (spelling?) those little feathery bits to subside not producing enough oxygen. So when you vape the PG (is used in ashma inhalers) wakes up those little feathers again which in turn creates the illusion of shortness of breath as your lungs are trying to keep up. This is by no means a scientific deduction merely my thoughts and similar experience when I started vaping also ...... you will also have a lot of phlegm in the beginning that's just your lungs getting rid of all the kak in your lungs  

Whatever you do , don't stop vaping , but like suggested carry on with the Cue till the cigarette urges subside I would say about a month or two (and again my own experiences). I would strongly advise against nic salts as it's still early days , and can cause even worse nic dependence than normal ejuice liquids.

Please do update on the progression as we are here to provide support and help in any way we can.

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## Daniel

GSM500 said:


> Nic salts makes me short of breath and irritates my lungs. I just can't handle the stuff.



I found the same , do you normally vape 70/30 ? Most nic salts are 50/50 and I find the added PG a bit harsh for me too ......

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## GSM500

Daniel said:


> I found the same , do you normally vape 70/30 ? Most nic salts are 50/50 and I find the added PG a bit harsh for me too ......


I mix @ 50/50 12mg freebase nic, PG does not bother me. In the early days Liqua juice was 70% PG and I vaped it for years but I do vape @ a low 15W MTL throughout the day. The Nic salts was mixed @ 50/50 but it was not the PG that irritated me, it was the Nic salts, the sensation was weird.

All of my Dripper juice is 3mg freebase @ 70% VG.

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## Daniel

GSM500 said:


> I mix @ 50/50 12mg freebase nic, PG does not bother me. In the early days Liqua juice was 70% PG and I vaped it for years but I do vape @ a low 15W MTL throughout the day. The Nic salts was mixed @ 50/50 but it was not the PG that irritated me, it was the Nic salts, the sensation was weird.
> 
> All of my Dripper juice is 3mg freebase @ 70% VG.



Yeah also tried nic salts , very chemical taste and irritated my throat as well ......

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## GSM500

Daniel said:


> Yeah also tried nic salts , very chemical taste and irritated my throat as well ......


It felt like I had popping candy in my lungs @ 24mg. I'll stay with freebase thanks

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## KZOR

Daniel said:


> it causes the avioli (spelling?) those little feathery bits to subside not producing enough oxygen.


Omg ....... thank goodness you are not a Biology teacher. 

Just a quick lowdown on the effects of nic on breathing and circulation. 

Nicotine is a stimulant that affects the adrenal glands, which results in the release of adrenaline.
This surge of adrenaline stimulates the body. There is an immediate release of glucose, as well as an increase in heart rate, breathing activity, and blood pressure.
Adrenaline leads to hyperglycemia which resists the function of insulin causing the higher blood pressure. Hence the reason why high nic levels can also lead to diabetes.
Heart must work harder now to circulate blood containing the vital oxygen for your cells. This in turn means that the respiratory muscles must work harder so that breathing rate increases to get in more air which will now be swapped for carbon dioxide at your ALVEOLI, which are tiny air sacs at the base of your terminal bronchioli. Adrenaline can also cause the smooth muscles of the bronchioli to contract causing constriction which means less air can pass through to the alveoli for sufficient gaseous exchange to occur.

Bottom line ................. .the higher the nic the more adrenaline is released which overstimulates the sympathetic nervous system, making your breathing become rapid and shallow, your heart rate increase, and your blood pressure rise.

Also bear in mind that certain flavors can also agitate the respiratory system. In my case cinnamon is one of those examples.

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## jm10

KZOR said:


> Omg ....... thank goodness you are not a Biology teacher.
> 
> Just a quick lowdown on the effects of nic on breathing and circulation.
> 
> Nicotine is a stimulant that affects the adrenal glands, which results in the release of adrenaline.
> This surge of adrenaline stimulates the body. There is an immediate release of glucose, as well as an increase in heart rate, breathing activity, and blood pressure.
> Adrenaline leads to hyperglycemia which resists the function of insulin causing the higher blood pressure. Hence the reason why high nic levels can also lead to diabetes.
> Heart must work harder now to circulate blood containing the vital oxygen for your cells. This in turn means that the respiratory muscles must work harder so that breathing rate increases to get in more air which will now be swapped for carbon dioxide at your ALVEOLI, which are tiny air sacs at the base of your terminal bronchioli. Adrenaline can also cause the smooth muscles of the bronchioli to contract causing constriction which means less air can pass through to the alveoli for sufficient gaseous exchange to occur.
> 
> Bottom line ................. .the higher the nic the more adrenaline is released which overstimulates the sympathetic nervous system, making your breathing become rapid and shallow, your heart rate increase, and your blood pressure rise.



Thank you oh wise one, its alittle scary understanding it that way.... i live on nic salts so it is concerning. 


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## takatatak

Vegetable Glycerin (VG) is also known to cause shortness of breath for some people at higher percentages. Most e-liquids for pod systems use a 50/50 VG/PG ratio whilst most regular e-liquids for DL setups use a 70/30 ratio. Obviously there are exceptions to the norm...

Based on this you may have an intolerance to VG at higher percentages. As mentioned by @KZOR, some flavours can also cause a tightness in your chest. Cinnamon, custards & buttery flavours for example can all contribute towards that feeling.

I personally didn't experience it much but I found that it took some getting used to DL vaping. After about a month or so the tight chest & morning congestion had subsided. Vaping too much cinnamon etc. can still have that effect though...

The nice thing about DIY mixing is that you can mix e-liquid at your desired percentages... Otherwise, you may struggle a bit to find juices mixed at your desired ratios.

Hope this helps a bit...

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## Crazyj

Sorry for the noob question..but what does freebase mean?I'm getting a pod system soon and not sure what liquid to get as I have read a few times about being carefull of nic salts?what would you guys surgest?I'm a pretty heavy smoker and really sick of those things called stinkies! ! TIA

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## Daniel

Crazyj said:


> Sorry for the noob question..but what does freebase mean?I'm getting a pod system soon and not sure what liquid to get as I have read a few times about being carefull of nic salts?what would you guys surgest?I'm a pretty heavy smoker and really sick of those things called stinkies! ! TIA



Welcome and great move quitting the stinkies .... 

Freebase is just another term for normal ejuice (the non nic salt versions you get in shops). 
You get different strengths so depending how heavy a smoker you were I would probably start with 6mg strength or higher.
Mouth To Lung devices are also better suited as they simulate the draw of a cigarette , the Cue was mentioned its a simple no fuss device and I think the pods are 18mg freebase , but not refillable. Otherwise I'm sure the more knowledgeable ppl will comment soon enough  
Nic Salts are NOT meant for sub ohm vaping IMHO (anything under 0.Xohms on your coil) as the liquid can get carcinogenic at higher temperatures (this is what other more educated ppl have been saying not me ...).

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## Crazyj

Daniel said:


> Welcome and great move quitting the stinkies ....
> 
> Freebase is just another term for normal ejuice (the non nic salt versions you get in shops).
> You get different strengths so depending how heavy a smoker you were I would probably start with 6mg strength or higher.
> Mouth To Lung devices are also better suited as they simulate the draw of a cigarette , the Cue was mentioned its a simple no fuss device and I think the pods are 18mg freebase , but not refillable. Otherwise I'm sure the more knowledgeable ppl will comment soon enough
> Nic Salts are NOT meant for sub ohm vaping IMHO (anything under 0.Xohms on your coil) as the liquid can get carcinogenic at higher temperatures (this is what other more educated ppl have been saying not me ...).


Ah okay now I understand. .thanks man.yeah been vaping a couple of months now.tried 6mg in my sub and almost died!!!hahahaha.think I will be getting the breeze 2 as it's refillable and also the coils.thanks for the info

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## Crazyj

Another thing...in the beginning when I started vaping I only smoked like 2 sigs a day for 2 weeks.after that I just needed that nic fix.so I think higher nic is on the cards for me.



Crazyj said:


> Ah okay now I understand. .thanks man.yeah been vaping a couple of months now.tried 6mg in my sub and almost died!!!hahahaha.think I will be getting the breeze 2 as it's refillable and also the coils.thanks for the info


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## KZOR

Daniel said:


> Freebase is just another term for normal ejuice


Almost there @Daniel . 

Freebase refers to the purest form of nicotine. It is the type of nicotine used in the tobacco industry and as a ingredient in the majority of ejuices.
Freebase nicotine has a higher pH and this dramatic increase in alkaline causes a harsher throat-hit, thus causing people to vape at smaller amounts than they may need.

Nic salts is a mixture of nicotine and other organic compounds like benzoic acid. It lowers the pH levels of nicotine, reducing alkalinity in the process. The end result is a much smoother vaping experience. This also allows the juice, with higher nic levels, to be vaped at lower temperatures making it suitable for pens and pods.

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## jm10

KZOR said:


> Almost there @Daniel .
> 
> Freebase refers to the purest form of nicotine. It is the type of nicotine used in the tobacco industry and as a ingredient in the majority of ejuices.
> Freebase nicotine has a higher pH and this dramatic increase in alkaline causes a harsher throat-hit, thus causing people to vape at smaller amounts than they may need.
> 
> Nic salts is a mixture of nicotine and other organic compounds like benzoic acid. It lowers the pH levels of nicotine, reducing alkalinity in the process. The end result is a much smoother vaping experience. This also allows the juice, with higher nic levels, to be vaped at lower temperatures making it suitable for pens and pods.



This is a well informed answer 


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## Crazyj

jm10 said:


> This is a well informed answer
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the info,I actually read this a couple of months ago but as you can see I forgot.

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## Reaper

KZOR said:


> Daniel said:
> 
> 
> 
> it causes the avioli (spelling?) those little feathery bits to subside not producing enough oxygen.
> 
> 
> 
> Omg ....... thank goodness you are not a Biology teacher.
> 
> Just a quick lowdown on the effects of nic on breathing and circulation.
> 
> Nicotine is a stimulant that affects the adrenal glands, which results in the release of adrenaline.
> This surge of adrenaline stimulates the body. There is an immediate release of glucose, as well as an increase in heart rate, breathing activity, and blood pressure.
> Adrenaline leads to hyperglycemia which resists the function of insulin causing the higher blood pressure. Hence the reason why high nic levels can also lead to diabetes.
> Heart must work harder now to circulate blood containing the vital oxygen for your cells. This in turn means that the respiratory muscles must work harder so that breathing rate increases to get in more air which will now be swapped for carbon dioxide at your ALVEOLI, which are tiny air sacs at the base of your terminal bronchioli. Adrenaline can also cause the smooth muscles of the bronchioli to contract causing constriction which means less air can pass through to the alveoli for sufficient gaseous exchange to occur.
> 
> Bottom line ................. .the higher the nic the more adrenaline is released which overstimulates the sympathetic nervous system, making your breathing become rapid and shallow, your heart rate increase, and your blood pressure rise.
> 
> Also bear in mind that certain flavors can also agitate the respiratory system. In my case cinnamon is one of those examples.
Click to expand...



Ok but it does not make sense that I feel worse when doing DL hit with the 3mg nic vs using a cue which has a lot more nic in it,,could I be getting more nicotine because I am taking in more vapour?

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## Reaper

And since I wanna move to the nautilus mini ,you all suggest stay on freebase rather than salt nic?


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## Crazyj

Another thing I also have noticed when heavy vaping is that it seems to me that i get dehydrated.is this possible?

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## Reaper

Crazyj said:


> Another thing I also have noticed when heavy vaping is that it seems to me that i get dehydrated.is this possible?



@Crazyj -from what I read it is possible,that’s why in one of the posts on starting vaping they suggest increasing water intake.

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## GSM500

Reaper said:


> Ok but it does not make sense that I feel worse when doing DL hit with the 3mg nic vs using a cue which has a lot more nic in it,,could I be getting more nicotine because I am taking in more vapour?


Your cue is probably running @ around 5 or 6 Watts. What Wattage are you running on the DL setup?


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## Reaper

GSM500 said:


> Your cue is probably running @ around 5 or 6 Watts. What Wattage are you running on the DL setup?



Think it’s at 45w


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## takatatak

Crazyj said:


> Another thing I also have noticed when heavy vaping is that it seems to me that i get dehydrated.is this possible?


Dehydration is a known side-effect of PG intake... Dry lips, vaper's tongue etc. can be attributed to the PG so yeah, definitely up your water intake... says me who lives on coffee 

I found the dehydration reduced once my body adapted to vaping though...

I use both nic salts and regular e-juice. Nic salts in my Breeze 2 and regular juice in my Polar. I started on the Breeze and got the Polar a bit later... I use the Breeze every now and then. Sometimes go days to weeks without it. Polar I vape daily.

I've had 2 stinkies since I started vaping around May. Nic salts didn't make me crave an analog whatsoever & I still have zero desire to go back to smoking...


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## Reaper

takatatak said:


> Dehydration is a known side-effect of PG intake... Dry lips, vaper's tongue etc. can be attributed to the PG so yeah, definitely up your water intake... says me who lives on coffee
> 
> I found the dehydration reduced once my body adapted to vaping though...
> 
> I use both nic salts and regular e-juice. Nic salts in my Breeze 2 and regular juice in my Polar. I started on the Breeze and got the Polar a bit later... I use the Breeze every now and then. Sometimes go days to weeks without it. Polar I vape daily.
> 
> I've had 2 stinkies since I started vaping around May. Nic salts didn't make me crave an analog whatsoever & I still have zero desire to go back to smoking...




Are you not concerned about the high nic content?
What level box are you on?


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## Crazyj

Reaper said:


> Are you not concerned about the high nic content?
> What level box are you on?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well done man,I also wanna get the breeze so I'm also curious to know what level nic you using?


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## GSM500

Reaper said:


> Think it’s at 45w
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is around 9 times the work that the cue is doing so the experience is obviously very different and the vapour more dense. Not sure if it is the Nic content that will be making you feel lousy. It took me a few years before I could adapt to direct lung. I still vape MTL mostly, just a much bigger machine than a cue.

Maybe drop the DL to 30W or 35W, see if that helps.

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## SmokeyJoe

Reaper said:


> Hey this is abit off topic,,
> But just curious and wondering if you could help,
> 
> So been using cue during the day and still ciggs now and then,
> 
> 
> Yesterday I started to use a friends mod aswell,..
> So it was cue (MTl) and at times dl with his mod
> 
> After a few hours started to feel short of breath or rather the feeling of not able to take deep enough breaths..
> 
> I remember few years back when I started vaping,the same thing happened to me,that time was using vap mob intense strawberry,
> 
> This time around was using nvc trinity.
> 
> Could it be the direct lung hits that’s causing it?
> 
> Could it be the juice?since it happens with 2 different juices ?


Did you try switching it on off and on again?

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## Silver

Reaper said:


> Ok but it does not make sense that I feel worse when doing DL hit with the 3mg nic vs using a cue which has a lot more nic in it,,could I be getting more nicotine because I am taking in more vapour?



@Reaper , just on this point, it can be more nic from more volume of vapour

But DL is also very different to MTL. That volume itself often takes a lot of getting used to. Many smokers who first try vaping on big airy DL setups cough a lot and it puts them off. Took me a long time to get into DL and my DL is still quite restricted. Try stay on MTL and slowly ease yourself into DL. I agree with another suggestion of lowering the power on the DL. Also try reduce the airflow a bit if you can, at least initially

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme

Reaper said:


> Hey this is abit off topic,,
> But just curious and wondering if you could help,
> 
> So been using cue during the day and still ciggs now and then,
> 
> 
> Yesterday I started to use a friends mod aswell,..
> So it was cue (MTl) and at times dl with his mod
> 
> After a few hours started to feel short of breath or rather the feeling of not able to take deep enough breaths..
> 
> I remember few years back when I started vaping,the same thing happened to me,that time was using vap mob intense strawberry,
> 
> This time around was using nvc trinity.
> 
> Could it be the direct lung hits that’s causing it?
> 
> Could it be the juice?since it happens with 2 different juices ?



I also get it sometimes, think its either very sweet juice or menthol. But maybe ws23 or polar blast also that does not work with my lungs, still searching for the culprit


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## takatatak

Reaper said:


> Are you not concerned about the high nic content?
> What level box are you on?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey man, I started vaping 30mg/ml nic salts from Ripe Vapes on the Vaporesso Orca Solo. Upgraded to the Breeze 2 and started using 20mg/ml nic salts from the Elements NS20 range.

When I got my DL setup I started with 6mg/ml juice but found it a bit harsh at times and preferred the better flavour from 3mg/ml. I also vape quite hot at around 65-80W on a GT Mesh coil so the 3mg juice is better for me.

I'd like to get Elements nic salts in 10mg as I'm finding the 20mg a bit harsh at times. I find myself not using the Breeze 2 that much anymore but I do still love it from time to time. I'm definitely dependant on my nic fix but I wouldn't say the nic salts have been any more addictive than my normal setup.

I guess we all have different experiences however so I'm just sharing mine. Between the Breeze for MTL and the Polar for DL I've had no craving for another cancer stick...

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## takatatak

Silver said:


> @Reaper , just on this point, it can be more nic from more volume of vapour
> 
> But DL is also very different to MTL. That volume itself often takes a lot of getting used to. Many smokers who first try vaping on big airy DL setups cough a lot and it puts them off. Took me a long time to get into DL and my DL is still quite restricted. Try stay on MTL and slowly ease yourself into DL. I agree with another suggestion of lowering the power on the DL. Also try reduce the airflow a bit if you can, at least initially


I think the word "drag" causes problems for people starting out with DL vaping... I've told people to forget the word "drag" and just "breath" in the vape. No suction with your mouth. Inhalation only. Seems to help some people get it better...

As mentioned above though, lower the wattage if it's too hot or if you're getting too much vapour.

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## Reaper

Hey just some feed back,
Got me the Renova zero with 20mg Nic Salt.

The shortness of breath still there but improving,not as bad as yesterday,

I stopped doing DL hits,,
So it mayb that or mayb the vg,since new juice at 50/50 and the others was I think 60/40

Will keep you updated if it’s completely resolved 


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## SmokeyJoe

Reaper said:


> Hey just some feed back,
> Got me the Renova zero with 20mg Nic Salt.
> 
> The shortness of breath still there but improving,not as bad as yesterday,
> 
> I stopped doing DL hits,,
> So it mayb that or mayb the vg,since new juice at 50/50 and the others was I think 60/40
> 
> Will keep you updated if it’s completely resolved
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When i started vaping, i started with those 1st twisp devices (MTL) years ago.
When i upgraded mutliple times until i reached the Kanger Subtank that was my 1st DL device, my lungs really struggled, shortness of breath, coughing, etc. Eventually i started getting used to it, but it did take a while. Its the same if you ask a normal cigarette smoker to take a DL hit from a small atty running at a low 25w. They will cough up a lung. Its almost like you you need to train your lungs to accept DL vapor. As an asthmatic what i can suggest is to get an over the counter allergy med like Allergex thats none drowsy. It might help just to relax your lung reflexes. It will also help your lungs not to close up

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