# Batts - How low to go, and when to throw?



## KB_314

I've recently purchased a couple of new BF atties and have been enjoying builds that are a little lower in resistence than I normally go for. 

Using Reo's (mech), I've allowed the batteries to drop in voltage well below the recommended 3.6v. 
Normally, I know exactly when to swap batteries out but this has taken a little getting used to.

Question is, at what point should one chuck the battery? I popped an 18650 into the charger and was a little horrified to see it was down to 3.1v  And once or twice I was at 3.3v. Presumably I have damaged the batteries or at least shortened the lifespan, but are they still safe to use in mechs?


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## stevie g

Hunt for the spec sheet it will tell you lower end discharge.

Lots of batteries are around 2.8v and some down to 2.5v.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## Igno

I recently had an Efest battery vent inside my X Cube 2 after about a year and 3 months usage, so I would say don't use longer than a year max. There were no shorts and not even close to max draw (normally 12 amps on a 20 amp battery) of any sort as I am quite clued up with battery safety etc. So IMO, don't use longer than a year, and I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for this, but stay away from Efest.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## SAVaper

I would also like to see what the general consensus would be.

Reactions: Like 2


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## KB_314

Ok, so being 25r's, it seems they can handle down to 2.5v - at least as far as the manufacturers recommendation. 
Most of the popular batteries amongst vapers seem to be the same from what I could see. Although for VTC5's and 6's the manufacturer reckons 2v.


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## KB_314

Igno said:


> I recently had an Efest battery vent inside my X Cube 2 after about a year and 3 months usage, so I would say don't use longer than a year max. There were no shorts and not even close to max draw (normally 12 amps on a 20 amp battery) of any sort as I am quite clued up with battery safety etc. So IMO, don't use longer than a year, and I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for this, but stay away from Efest.


@Igno from what I've read, the number of cycles is the best way to describe the age of a battery - a year and a half is a lot though if you used them regularly. A year seems like solid advice! And regarding efests, I know there was a very dodgy couple of batches according to mooch, so maybe you got some of those. For a few reasons, I too stay away from efest 18650's, other than the old 2500mah ones but those are no longer in production.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Igno

According to my knowledge, if a battery is rated at 3.7 volts as most 18650's we use are, and they're fully charged at 4.2 volts, you take the 0.5 volts and work according to that rating. So from 3.7 - 4.2 is 0.5 volts, now take the rating which is 3.7 volt and minus 0.5 volts and you get 3.2, that's my minimum discharge always and for battery life and safety I won't go below that. At 2.5 volts your battery will have taken too much and it will reduce your battery life severely even though it will still be usable. Just my 2 cents

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## SAVaper

KB_314 said:


> @Igno from what I've read, the number of cycles is the best way to describe the age of a battery - a year and a half is a lot though if you used them regularly. A year seems like solid advice! And regarding efests, I know there was a very dodgy couple of batches according to mooch, so maybe you got some of those. For a few reasons, I too stay away from efest 18650's, other than the old 2500mah ones but those are no longer in production.



So as far as cycles go, how many cycles would be recommended?
I have 2 batteries that I alternate and one lasts about a day. So 180/190 odd cycles per year each. Is that a lot?


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## KB_314

SAVaper said:


> So as far as cycles go, how many cycles would be recommended?
> I have 2 batteries that I alternate and one lasts about a day. So 180/190 odd cycles per year each. Is that a lot?


Doesn't sound excessive - most reckon 300 cycles, but I think 250 would be reasonable before needing to replace.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Thanks 1


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## Igno

SAVaper said:


> So as far as cycles go, how many cycles would be recommended?
> I have 2 batteries that I alternate and one lasts about a day. So 180/190 odd cycles per year each. Is that a lot?



I'd say for the big 3 (Samsung, LG and Sony), cycles are normally at 200 - 250. So it seems that you'll be good for a year @SAVaper , some manufacturers claim up to 500 cycles but IMO that's looking for trouble. I also make sure that my batteries gets a re-wrap if the wrap starts getting damaged.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## SAVaper

Ok. Sounds good.


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## Blu_Marlin

KB_314 said:


> I've recently purchased a couple of new BF atties and have been enjoying builds that are a little lower in resistence than I normally go for.
> 
> Using Reo's (mech), I've allowed the batteries to drop in voltage well below the recommended 3.6v.
> Normally, I know exactly when to swap batteries out but this has taken a little getting used to.
> 
> Question is, at what point should one chuck the battery? I popped an 18650 into the charger and was a little horrified to see it was down to 3.1v  And once or twice I was at 3.3v. Presumably I have damaged the batteries or at least shortened the lifespan, but are they still safe to use in mechs?


As @Sprint said best to check the spec sheet. Most of the LiON cells have a minimum cut off voltage of 2.5V. I used to vape down to 3.6/3.7V but since using SS316 I go down to 3/3.1V as you dont notice the drop of in flavor and clouds. There is no damage to the battery at that voltage however the number of charge cycles decrease when going that low (depth of discharge). 

Until recently I’ve only used mechs (REOs) and the only time I`ve had a problem was with an EFEST. It vented for no apparent reason. Not an expolsive vent but the electrolyte leaked. I had just started using mechs at that time and threw away the other three EFESTs that I had. They were in use for about two months and were never discharged below 3.6V. Since then I’ve only used LGHG2, Samsung Q30, Sony VTC4/5 and recently the VTC6 with no problems.I`ve attached the spec sheet of the VTC5. This is the battery I use most often.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## RichJB

Daniel vents even more than his Efest did:



Although he does note that he tested more Efests afterwards and it seemed to be an isolated problem.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Silver

KB_314 said:


> I've recently purchased a couple of new BF atties and have been enjoying builds that are a little lower in resistence than I normally go for.
> 
> Using Reo's (mech), I've allowed the batteries to drop in voltage well below the recommended 3.6v.
> Normally, I know exactly when to swap batteries out but this has taken a little getting used to.
> 
> Question is, at what point should one chuck the battery? I popped an 18650 into the charger and was a little horrified to see it was down to 3.1v  And once or twice I was at 3.3v. Presumably I have damaged the batteries or at least shortened the lifespan, but are they still safe to use in mechs?



Hi @KB_314 
I wouldnt worry about 3.3 or 3.1V. That has occasionally happened to me on various batteries and mods and they are still working fine after being charged.

My only question is what kind of vape are you getting on the Reo down at 3.1V. You probably sucking the last few fumes out of it. Below 3.6V on my setups yields a very weak vape on my batteries.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Blu_Marlin

KB_314 said:


> Doesn't sound excessive - most reckon 300 cycles, but I think 250 would be reasonable before needing to replace.





Igno said:


> I'd say for the big 3 (Samsung, LG and Sony), cycles are normally at 200 - 250. So it seems that you'll be good for a year @SAVaper , some manufacturers claim up to 500 cycles but IMO that's looking for trouble. I also make sure that my batteries gets a re-wrap if the wrap starts getting damaged.


The charge cycles will depend on how low you discharge your battery. 200 to 300 cycles is doable as we don’t discharge down to 2.5V which is what the manufacture usually discharges to when doing tests. LiON chemistry batteries are volatile batteries. That’s one of the reasons they work well for vaping. They can provide the amperage required to drive our low ohm coil builds with a decent size and capacity. You should be comfortable, with yourself, when deciding when to use or chuck a battery.

I don’t keep track of the number of charge cycles on my batteries. I use the 5% rule. If the battery loses more than 5% of it’s voltage fully charged voltage (0.21V) after 24 hours then it becomes my flashlight battery. Some sites will recommend a greater percentage but I`m comfortable with 5%. I test my batteries regularly with a good multimeter so I’m confident that when I put in a battery it will not give me problems. If it gets to 10% self discharge over 24 hours then it goes into the recycle bin at my Woolies.

I bought a ton of clear battery wraps from FT last year and I wrap the battery in the clear wrap before I start using it. It effectly is double wrapped. It`s usually the clear wrap that gets damaged first and when this happens I just remove the clear wrap and rewrap with another clear wrap. This might not work with certain mods as the space is limited but on my REOs it`s not a problem.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 3


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## Blu_Marlin

Silver said:


> Hi @KB_314
> I wouldnt worry about 3.3 or 3.1V. That has occasionally happened to me on various batteries and mods and they are still working fine after being charged.
> 
> *My only question is what kind of vape are you getting on the Reo down at 3.1V. You probably sucking the last few fumes out of it. Below 3.6V on my setups yields a very weak vape on my batteries.*


Using Kanthal, like I do on some of my setups at 3.6V it`s definitely noticeable. However recently on the OL16 with the 8 wrap SS316L 2.5mm ID which comes out at 0.24ohm, cold, for dual coils I tend to get closer to 3.1/3.2V before I notice and need to change batteries.

Reactions: Thanks 1 | Can relate 1


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## Silver

Blu_Marlin said:


> Using Kanthal, like I do on some of my setups at 3.6V it`s definitely noticeable. However recently on the OL16 with the 8 wrap SS316L 2.5mm ID which comes out at 0.24ohm, cold, for dual coils I tend to get closer to 3.1/3.2V before I notice and need to change batteries.



Thanks @Blu_Marlin - i need to try that! 
More battery life!!
I need to try the SS again!


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## PsyCLown

Can't you use a battery charger to check the internal resistance or charge capacity and use this to tell you whether the battery is nearing the end of its life?

I like the drop in voltage over a 24 hour period. That is easy to check.


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## Blu_Marlin

PsyCLown said:


> Can't you use a battery charger to check the internal resistance or charge capacity and use this to tell you whether the battery is nearing the end of its life?
> 
> I like the drop in voltage over a 24 hour period. That is easy to check.


I dont think that there`s anything wrong with using a charger to check the voltage. A good charger shoud have an accuracy of +/- 1% of 4.2V to prevent over charging of the battery. I also have an Xtra VC4 charger that I use to check battery capacity from time to time. Remember though that in the first 24 hours after a charge cycle the battery will loose round about 1% of its charge voltage due to self discharge. So dont be alarmed if you see the display showing 4.15 to 4.17 volts after 24 hours. I also charge my batteries on the lowest charge available to extend battery life. Usually 150mA per bay on my 4 bay charger. It takes a while to charge a 2600-3000 mAH battery though.


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## KB_314

Silver said:


> Thanks @Blu_Marlin - i need to try that!
> More battery life!!
> I need to try the SS again!


Yep, pretty much as @Blu_Marlin put it - I'm using the same build on the same atty, coming in at 0.25ohms. Beautiful vape. But 3.2/3.3 feels like 3.6v on my Cyclone. I must admit, 3.1v today was definitely a lazy vape but I was on a construction site with batteries quite a walk away and kept pulling on the Reo and then remembering the battery was flat

Reactions: Can relate 2


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## SAVaper

Thanks all. This is very use full information.


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## Stosta

Blu_Marlin said:


> The charge cycles will depend on how low you discharge your battery. 200 to 300 cycles is doable as we don’t discharge down to 2.5V which is what the manufacture usually discharges to when doing tests. LiON chemistry batteries are volatile batteries. That’s one of the reasons they work well for vaping. They can provide the amperage required to drive our low ohm coil builds with a decent size and capacity. You should be comfortable, with yourself, when deciding when to use or chuck a battery.
> 
> I don’t keep track of the number of charge cycles on my batteries. I use the 5% rule. If the battery loses more than 5% of it’s voltage fully charged voltage (0.21V) after 24 hours then it becomes my flashlight battery. Some sites will recommend a greater percentage but I`m comfortable with 5%. I test my batteries regularly with a good multimeter so I’m confident that when I put in a battery it will not give me problems. If it gets to 10% self discharge over 24 hours then it goes into the recycle bin at my Woolies.
> 
> I bought a ton of clear battery wraps from FT last year and I wrap the battery in the clear wrap before I start using it. It effectly is double wrapped. It`s usually the clear wrap that gets damaged first and when this happens I just remove the clear wrap and rewrap with another clear wrap. This might not work with certain mods as the space is limited but on my REOs it`s not a problem.


^This is what I've been looking for! Thank you very much sir. I'm closing in on a year soon and have been wondering when the dreaded battery-replacement saga will begin.


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## Silver

Blu_Marlin said:


> The charge cycles will depend on how low you discharge your battery. 200 to 300 cycles is doable as we don’t discharge down to 2.5V which is what the manufacture usually discharges to when doing tests. LiON chemistry batteries are volatile batteries. That’s one of the reasons they work well for vaping. They can provide the amperage required to drive our low ohm coil builds with a decent size and capacity. You should be comfortable, with yourself, when deciding when to use or chuck a battery.
> 
> I don’t keep track of the number of charge cycles on my batteries. I use the 5% rule. If the battery loses more than 5% of it’s voltage fully charged voltage (0.21V) after 24 hours then it becomes my flashlight battery. Some sites will recommend a greater percentage but I`m comfortable with 5%. I test my batteries regularly with a good multimeter so I’m confident that when I put in a battery it will not give me problems. If it gets to 10% self discharge over 24 hours then it goes into the recycle bin at my Woolies.
> 
> I bought a ton of clear battery wraps from FT last year and I wrap the battery in the clear wrap before I start using it. It effectly is double wrapped. It`s usually the clear wrap that gets damaged first and when this happens I just remove the clear wrap and rewrap with another clear wrap. This might not work with certain mods as the space is limited but on my REOs it`s not a problem.



I like your 24 hour discharge approach @Blu_Marlin 

I have one of those "doo hickeys" i got from ohm @johan and its still going strong. I think its pretty accurate. Fully charged batts in my vape setup usually sit for a few days before being used. What I noticed is that the Samsung "blue smurfs" discharged slightly more than the older Efests. After being fully charged to around 4.21V or 4.20V and sitting for a few days, the Samsungs would be like 4.17V whereas the Efests would stay at 4.20V (using the same doohickey) Always found that strange because the Samsungs were fairly new and the Efests about a year old with (I estimate) about 100 cycles in the Reos each.

I assume a drop to 4.17V is nothing to be concerned about? They still seem to perform very well.

I must check some of my brown LG ones....


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## Vape Starter

Hi Guys here is a silly question, I dropped my vape this morning... the battery cover came off but battery did not come out. Battery looks fine, should I be worried or am I just being paranoid?
Also where do we safely dispose of our batteries (18650)? I'm still fine now but don't want to throw them into a recycling battery bin if its not the right thing to do.


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## Andre

Vape Starter said:


> Hi Guys here is a silly question, I dropped my vape this morning... the battery cover came off but battery did not come out. Battery looks fine, should I be worried or am I just being paranoid?
> Also where do we safely dispose of our batteries (18650)? I'm still fine now but don't want to throw them into a recycling battery bin if its not the right thing to do.


If you drop a battery and it gets damaged, it will usually not work at all. I have used dropped batteries before without ill effect, but the choice will always be yours. The big grocery retailers usually have a box for battery recycling - it is fine to use those, but do wrap the battery in plastic, like cling wrap.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Blu_Marlin

Silver said:


> I like your 24 hour discharge approach @Blu_Marlin
> 
> I have one of those "doo hickeys" i got from ohm @johan and its still going strong. I think its pretty accurate. Fully charged batts in my vape setup usually sit for a few days before being used. What I noticed is that the Samsung "blue smurfs" discharged slightly more than the older Efests. After being fully charged to around 4.21V or 4.20V and sitting for a few days, the Samsungs would be like 4.17V whereas the Efests would stay at 4.20V (using the same doohickey) Always found that strange because the Samsungs were fairly new and the Efests about a year old with (I estimate) about 100 cycles in the Reos each.
> 
> I assume a drop to 4.17V is nothing to be concerned about? They still seem to perform very well.
> 
> I must check some of my brown LG ones....


Ive also built two of those "doo hickeys". Mine are not that accurate but for a quick voltage checker it works perfectly. At 4.17V there’s nothing to worry about. The non existent self discharge on the EFEST is curious though.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Blu_Marlin

Vape Starter said:


> Hi Guys here is a silly question, I dropped my vape this morning... the battery cover came off but battery did not come out. Battery looks fine, should I be worried or am I just being paranoid?
> Also where do we safely dispose of our batteries (18650)? I'm still fine now but don't want to throw them into a recycling battery bin if its not the right thing to do.


Off hand there’s really no telling if the battery is fine or not. You will have to understand the construction and operation of an 18650 cell to be 100% certain. Manufactures usually do drop/vibration tests to determine the survival of a cell. As @Andre said if the battery is badly damaged it will probably not work. One of the signs will be electrolyte leaking from the battery. The battery will also heat up more than usual when in normal use. This is also a good indicator of a problem with the cell. Dropping the battery and depending on the force of the impact, the internal resistance and voltage could be affected. If it was still in the mod I would say that it is probably ok to use but only you can determine that. I’ve dropped batteries before and alway monitored then diligently during the next few charge/discharge cycles to make sure that there’s is no problems with the battery.

We have a LiON recycling bin at out Woolies. Granted it was probably intended for cell phone batteries and the like but the chemistry is still the same/identical as our 18650 cells. I usually tape up the ends with insulation tape before I dispose of them but looks like I am going to follow @Andre s advice and cling wrap them beforehand. That would be much safer.

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## Vape Starter

Thanks @Andre and @Blu_Marlin i will rather purchase a new battery to be safe. They not that expensive.

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## KB_314

A few months ago I dropped a VTC mini with Samsung 30q in a puddle. The battery came out of the mod and was fully submerged for a couple of seconds. The mod was glitchy, but the battery seemed to be working as normal. Needless to say, I discarded the battery having read many times that there should be no exposure to moisture. But one would never have known by looking at the battery or using it - for reasons like this, I always buy batteries brand new. You just never know with second hand batteries. 


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## stevie g

Vape Starter said:


> Thanks @Andre and @Blu_Marlin i will rather purchase a new battery to be safe. They not that expensive.


Don't waste your money I have batteries with dents all over them from drops and they work fine.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blu_Marlin

Vape Starter said:


> Thanks @Andre and @Blu_Marlin i will rather purchase a new battery to be safe. They not that expensive.


I don`t mean to a fear-monger. If you feel it`s better to purchase a new battery then by all means go for it. As I`ve said, I`ve dropped batterries before and still used them with no problems.

I take battery safety very seriously because I fly a lot, well used to anyway. So I did as much reading up on the 18650 batteries and safety as I could get my hands on. Explosive venting in your back yard, while dangerous, is not the same as an explosive vent while flying. At 35000 feet AGL there is nowhere to go if batteries start venting. Laptops and cell phones batteries use the same chemistry but they have built in protection features etc. Vapers on the other hand use “naked 18650” batteries for applications that they were not specifically designed for. I’ve heard the reports recently of certain carriers overseas not allowing in flight use for passengers with the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 due to the problems with the battery. I would like to think that fellow vapers are also cautious when flying with vape gear as it not only affects their lives but the lives of the people around them as well

I usually pack discharged batteries in silicone covers and place them in a flame retardant LiPO charging bag when flying. I do this to make sure that I and my fellow passengers arrive at our destinations safely and/or without incident.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Waine

Some useful information here. Thanks. If a battery cover has a small tear in it, what is the best way to cover it? Can I use a piece of insulation tape over the torn piece? Or what else?


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## Andre

Waine said:


> Some useful information here. Thanks. If a battery cover has a small tear in it, what is the best way to cover it? Can I use a piece of insulation tape over the torn piece? Or what else?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Insulation tape would be fine or do a rewrap.


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## Blu_Marlin

Waine said:


> Some useful information here. Thanks. If a battery cover has a small tear in it, what is the best way to cover it? Can I use a piece of insulation tape over the torn piece? Or what else?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A litle late, but better late than never @Waine As a long term solution I would re-wrap. There are vendors, not alot, that carry 18650 wraps these days. Back when it was scarce I ordered a few packs from Fasttech, enough to last me a lifetime and really cheap.
http://www.vapeking.co.za/18650-battery-wrap-various-colours-4-pack.html
http://www.vapeking.co.za/superhero-battery-wraps.html
Might be worth your while to check with the Sirs if they have or are getting any in.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Darryn Du Plessis

Igno said:


> I recently had an Efest battery vent inside my X Cube 2 after about a year and 3 months usage, so I would say don't use longer than a year max. There were no shorts and not even close to max draw (normally 12 amps on a 20 amp battery) of any sort as I am quite clued up with battery safety etc. So IMO, don't use longer than a year, and I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for this, but stay away from Efest.


I have had Samsung's since February - still getting 4 to 5 days life in my rx200 with them - want to replace with LG's for the future-
These and Sony VTC 4's have taken me a long way, in eleaf mods, also getting mods to reach beyond 2 days usually, with constant use.

I had a Efest 2800mah - and it vented itself in a mech mod, they seem pathetic to me, it couldn't even charge nicely --- and that vomit purple is also a distasteful colour, which matches their performance.


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## Darryn Du Plessis

By 'spoken law' 6 months is the supposed duration of a battery, but that should depend on how many charges it has had in those 180 days, 

If I was getting 5 days per 3-some marriage - 180/5 = 36 charges - to keep up with those days you're telling me that a battery can only charge 36 times in 6 months... That doesn't sound like a product you would buy if you knew the value - but it does still go . the Day your battery vents and refuses to re-charge is probably the best - - and when you notice the battery isn't lasting as long as it used to that can be your indication to monitor the events management of your mod.


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## Waine

I use those Brown no name batteries. I have used 10 in rotation since January. Tonight I tested each one with a Multimeter. All above 4 Volts. I read somewhere that if the multimeter shows a fully charged battery reading of under 3.5 Volts, then it's time to trash it.

I am still learning about batteries, and the basics of vaping electronics. Very interesting and lots of fun.


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## Silver

Waine said:


> Brown no name batteries.



What batteries @Waine ? Where did you get them?
Are they the brown LG "turds" LG HG2 batts?


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## Waine

@Silver I got the green ones from The Vape Shop in Gateway before I discovered Sir Vape. And the brownies from Sir Vape. Both work well. Never had a problem.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Feliks Karp

Darryn Du Plessis said:


> the Day your battery vents and refuses to re-charge is probably the best



what?


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## Greyz

Feliks Karp said:


> what?



I had that same look on my face when I read that too

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## Waine

I'm also confused  now


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