# Citric Acid



## Viper_SA (30/4/15)

Thinking of diluting this in some PG and using as "TFA Sour". Has anyone ever used this before in a DIY mix? If so, how much should I dilute in PG and how much should I use in the final mix?


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## BumbleBee (30/4/15)

Ah, I just picked some of this up too, haven't had a chance to play with it yet though. Would love to hear if anyone has used this yet.

Reactions: Like 1


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## drew (30/4/15)

I have't tried it myself but from what I have read. "TFA Sour" is malic acid. Combining citric and malic would be "Tart & Sour". The citric being tart and malic being sour.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Informative 2 | Useful 1


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## Viper_SA (30/4/15)

If I may get off topic and ask a question @drew: Typically how much sweetener and smooth would one use? Making a quick 4ml batch of an existing juice I have.


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## drew (30/4/15)

Viper_SA said:


> If I may get off topic and ask a question @drew: Typically how much sweetener and smooth would one use? Making a quick 4ml batch of an existing juice I have.



It all depends on the flavour, but I would make a small batch and start with 1% sweetener, then adjust to taste. I would do the same for smooth.

Reactions: Thanks 1


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## Fickie (30/4/15)

No expert but have tasted @Gambits Snake Oil which I can't duplicate so it might be this. Recipe posted here:
http://ecigssa.co.za/clone-recipes.t9698/#post-196459
Not sure if he bought it liquid or mixed it but also saw this:

http://ecigssa.co.za/my-first-extracts-yum-yum.t8052/#post-171182
A post by @Oliver Barry taken from Reddit.

These are the closest two I have seen with:
a) Previous use and experience
b) Instructions on mix

Tagged them and following this in case they can help and I also would like to know please. Good Lucky 

Regards,
Fickie

Reactions: Informative 1 | Useful 1


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## WHITELABEL (30/4/15)

Fickie said:


> No expert but have tasted @Gambits Snake Oil which I can't duplicate so it might be this. Recipe posted here:
> http://ecigssa.co.za/clone-recipes.t9698/#post-196459
> Not sure if he bought it liquid or mixed it but also saw this:
> 
> ...


Haha mine's a secret


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## WHITELABEL (30/4/15)

Viper_SA said:


> Thinking of diluting this in some PG and using as "TFA Sour". Has anyone ever used this before in a DIY mix? If so, how much should I dilute in PG and how much should I use in the final mix?
> View attachment 26299


I use this brand for my mixes, works great. The way I do it is I take a measuring cylinder and fill up 1ml with CA and then 9 ml's PG, run under warm water and shake vigorously until dissolved.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Informative 2


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## ET (30/4/15)

Could one rather mix the stuff in VG instead?


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## WHITELABEL (30/4/15)

ET said:


> Could one rather mix the stuff in VG instead?


Yeah I'm sure you could I think it would just be harder to get it to dissolve though. Also I only use like 5 or 6 drops per 30ml so the PG added is negligible.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Viper_SA (30/4/15)

Gambit said:


> I use this brand for my mixes, works great. The way I do it is I take a measuring cylinder and fill up 1ml with CA and then 9 ml's PG, run under warm water and shake vigorously until dissolved.



Thanks @Gambit and @drew for the inputs


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## Silver (30/4/15)

drew said:


> I have't tried it myself but from what I have read. "TFA Sour" is malic acid. Combining citric and malic would be "Tart & Sour". The citric being tart and malic being sour.



@drew, how would you describe the difference between tart and sour?
I often see those words being used in juice descriptions but I dont know the difference
Can you perhaps help? 
I also want to make sure I understand it properly for review purposes


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## drew (30/4/15)

Silver said:


> @drew, how would you describe the difference between tart and sour?
> I often see those words being used in juice descriptions but I dont know the difference
> Can you perhaps help?
> I also want to make sure I understand it properly for review purposes



I actually have no idea, lol. As mentioned the info provided is from what I have read.

I did get some TFA Sour today and have citric acid crystals so I'll mix up a solution and see if I can describe the difference between the two.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Thanks 1


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## Viper_SA (30/4/15)

drew said:


> I actually have no idea, lol. As mentioned the info provided is from what I have read.
> 
> I did get some TFA Sour today and have citric acid crystals so I'll mix up a solution and see if I can describe the difference between the two.



Yeah @drew take one for the team


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## BumbleBee (30/4/15)

Perhaps @Melinda can shed some light here?


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## Silver (30/4/15)

drew said:


> I actually have no idea, lol. As mentioned the info provided is from what I have read.
> 
> I did get some TFA Sour today and have citric acid crystals so I'll mix up a solution and see if I can describe the difference between the two.



Ok, thanks @drew. That will help
I would be interested to hear your findings, when you get to it. No rush. 
As far as i knew, the terms are pretty much referring to a similar sort of thing
Some googling seems to suggest that tart is a subset of the broader "sour family" of tastes
But nothing better than a direct test to see.


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## Viper_SA (30/4/15)

In the name of science I just chucked some dry Citric Acid in my mouth. It is a bit "sour" but more like eno's feels on you tongue. The flavor is more concentrated on the tongue, where as those sour sweets one gets kinda pulls your jaw shut and the flavor profile is not just concentrated on the tongue. A bit like the difference between Habaneros and Jalapenos.... If that makes any sense at all....

Reactions: Like 1


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## drew (30/4/15)

Some taste testing done. So difficult to describe the difference but I'll do my best. The citric acid has a sharp lemon juice type sourness (or should I say tartness) that hits you in the cheekbones. The malic acid stays mostly on the tongue and is a more dull apple cider vinegar type sour.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 2


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## Viper_SA (30/4/15)

drew said:


> Some taste testing done. So difficult to describe the difference but I'll do my best. The citric acid has a sharp lemon juice type sourness (or should I say tartness) that hits you in the cheekbones. The malic acid stays mostly on the tongue and is a more dull apple cider vinegar type sour.



Now I KNOW I'm "different" 

Had the exact opposite response with the citric acid from @drew


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## drew (30/4/15)

Viper_SA said:


> Now I KNOW I'm "different"
> 
> Had the exact opposite response with the citric acid from @drew



LOL, only read yours after I wrote mine. Exactly the opposite! I think concentrations must be coming into play here.


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## Viper_SA (30/4/15)

drew said:


> LOL, only read yours after I wrote mine. Exactly the opposite! I think concentrations must be coming into play here.



Could be a concentration thing, yes. But other people have also told me how harsh pineapple flavor is on the throat, and it doesn't bother me at all. Pear on the other hands, knocks me pretty hard. Then again, I have only been off cigs for about 7 weeks, so my taste and smell are still in a recovery stage I think.

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## free3dom (30/4/15)

Viper_SA said:


> Could be a concentration thing, yes. But other people have also told me how harsh pineapple flavor is on the throat, and it doesn't bother me at all. Pear on the other hands, knocks me pretty hard. Then again, I have only been off cigs for about 7 weeks, so my taste and smell are still in a recovery stage I think.



I think you hit the nail on the head. It took my tastebuds a few months (4-6) to settle down after I quit smoking. After that I could no longer vape some juices I really liked when starting out and vice versa, some I couldn't stand were all of a sudden awesome. I think initially some harsh flavours were quite dulled but "got through" which is what made them good during that time. Then later I found them quite overpowering - pineapple being a prime example, loved it at first, but now I use it only in moderation 

Also, taste being subjective, we all just experience flavours differently - being that it is processed by your brain there are some many factors that influence how something "tastes" to you

Reactions: Like 3


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## Silver (30/4/15)

Thanks @drew and @Viper_SA 
Very interesting and informative


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## Mike (30/4/15)

After using citric acid, I don't find much of a need for malic - however both impact flavours in the long run, call it steeping or what you want. I wish I were able to stop the reactions that acids cause from happening in some situations. My ADV which uses quite a bit of citric acid is great for the first 2-3 days, afterwhich is becomes increasingly smooth and rounded, which although in some situations works great, is not what I am looking for.


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## ET (30/4/15)

Mike said:


> After using citric acid, I don't find much of a need for malic - however both impact flavours in the long run, call it steeping or what you want. I wish I were able to stop the reactions that acids cause from happening in some situations. My ADV which uses quite a bit of citric acid is great for the first 2-3 days, afterwhich is becomes increasingly smooth and rounded, which although in some situations works great, is not what I am looking for.



increase the pg ratio and or the nic level or lower coil resistance to compensate or decrease airflow a tad?


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## Mike (30/4/15)

Thanks for the input ET but none of those are the solution. 

This is literally the acid reacting with other compounds over time and irrespective of nic % it happens. I've tested from max VG to 66/34 and it happens consistently and it's got nothing to do with how I vape it. At 5W it happens, at 50W it happens. Just a side effect (sometimes good, sometimes bad) of using acids in my experience. Might also be that in this particular mix I use a good deal of it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Eequinox (30/11/15)

Mike said:


> After using citric acid, I don't find much of a need for malic - however both impact flavours in the long run, call it steeping or what you want. I wish I were able to stop the reactions that acids cause from happening in some situations. My ADV which uses quite a bit of citric acid is great for the first 2-3 days, afterwhich is becomes increasingly smooth and rounded, which although in some situations works great, is not what I am looking for.


ok noobie question here where can i get citric acid i need to get tartness into a mix malic just not tart enough


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## blujeenz (30/11/15)

Usually baking section, with the soda bicarb etc, in Shoprite or PnP.
If you dont find it there then chemist is your next option.


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## Eequinox (30/11/15)

blujeenz said:


> Usually baking section, with the soda bicarb etc, in Shoprite or PnP.
> If you dont find it there then chemist is your next option.


would that be safe to use from the baking section ? i suppose it would be in powder form ?


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## blujeenz (30/11/15)

Yip yip, safe and powder form.
Mix it with a dash of distilled water so that you dont get undissolved powder or granules etc.


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## Eequinox (30/11/15)

blujeenz said:


> Yip yip, safe and powder form.


cool will give that a bash thanks for the help


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## blujeenz (30/11/15)

Eequinox said:


> cool will give that a bash thanks for the help


What I meant to say with my previous post was, if you mix it with distilled water until the solution is super saturated, ie some undissolved solids sinking to the bottom, then you can let it settle and take the top clear layer to dissolve into some pg.(pg just loves water but not powder so much)

IMO if you dump citric powder into your juice it could act like a buffer with draw out reactions over a period of time, vs a predissolved citric acid which should have a more immediate reaction with less after effects. You can also more accurately gauge doasage strength using drops of pg citric vs 1/4 teaspoon of powder etc.


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## Eequinox (30/11/15)

blujeenz said:


> What I meant to say with my previous post was, if you mix it with distilled water until the solution is super saturated, ie some undissolved solids sinking to the bottom, then you can let it settle and take the top clear layer to dissolve into some pg.(pg just loves water but not powder so much)
> 
> IMO if you dump citric powder into your juice it could act like a buffer with draw out reactions over a period of time, vs a predissolved citric acid which should have a more immediate reaction with less after effects. You can also more accurately gauge doasage strength using drops of pg citric vs 1/4 teaspoon of powder etc.


thanks i was going to dissolve 1/4 teaspoon in pg like EM and that tip makes way more sense


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## BumbleBee (30/11/15)

Eequinox said:


> thanks i was going to dissolve 1/4 teaspoon in pg like EM and that tip makes way more sense


Yes, dissolve it in PG, works great at around 10% If you battle to get all the granules to dissolve then just heat it slightly, a warm water bath works well.


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## Eequinox (30/11/15)

BumbleBee said:


> Yes, dissolve it in PG, works great at around 10% If you battle to get all the granules to dissolve then just heat it slightly, a warm water bath works well.


million dollar question where on earth can i get citric acid been to 2x spars woolworths clicks and dis chem and they don't stock it anyone know where in midrand or fourways area where i can get some


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## BumbleBee (30/11/15)

Eequinox said:


> million dollar question where on earth can i get citric acid been to 2x spars woolworths clicks and dis chem and they don't stock it anyone know where in midrand or fourways area where i can get some


Look for the jar that @Viper_SA started this thread with, it's also sometimes available in small paper sachets in the baking section. Most grocery stores should stock it in some form or another.


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## Eequinox (30/11/15)

BumbleBee said:


> Look for the jar that @Viper_SA started this thread with, it's also sometimes available in small paper sachets in the baking section. Most grocery stores should stock it in some form or another.


i wish lol found tartaric acid and all sorts just not citric


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## BumbleBee (30/11/15)

Eequinox said:


> i wish lol found tartaric acid and all sorts just not citric


Bugger, well you're looking in the right place if you're finding tartaric acid, bicarbonate of soda etc.


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## Eequinox (30/11/15)

BumbleBee said:


> Bugger, well you're looking in the right place if you're finding tartaric acid, bicarbonate of soda etc.


suppose all the places i went to just suck

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Eequinox (30/11/15)

BumbleBee said:


> Bugger, well you're looking in the right place if you're finding tartaric acid, bicarbonate of soda etc.


just checked online pick n pay has some !!


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## gertvanjoe (30/11/15)

If these are used in off the shelf joose , don't tell me .... but I think you are all crazy


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## Viper_SA (30/11/15)

I stopped using any additives except menthol because making 100ml batches and steeping for prolonged periods just started tasting flat-lined and even sometimes very chemical.


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## Eequinox (30/11/15)

gertvanjoe said:


> If these are used in off the shelf joose , don't tell me .... but I think you are all crazy


lol i like tart kind of juices and i'm just missing that little oomf lol

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Eequinox (30/11/15)

Viper_SA said:


> I stopped using any additives except menthol because making 100ml batches and steeping for prolonged periods just started tasting flat-lined and even sometimes very chemical.


i only do 30ml mixes at a time so i use them before they get to that stage


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## Lord Vetinari (12/2/16)

Silver said:


> @drew, how would you describe the difference between tart and sour?
> I often see those words being used in juice descriptions but I dont know the difference
> Can you perhaps help?
> I also want to make sure I understand it properly for review purposes


Taste (sense): Is there a technical difference between tart and sour? If so, what is it?
*2 ANSWERS*


Lee Ballentine, Poet, engineer, four time Top Writer on Quora.
7.2k Views
"Sour" is a broad term that includes a range of tastes. For instance, we describe the unpleasant taste of spoiled milk as sour, as well as the sharp acidic taste of vinegars, and other tastes too. "Tart" is a subset of "sour" and is a narrower term which suggests acidic fruitiness. Compare "piquant

Reactions: Thanks 1 | Informative 1


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## Silver (12/2/16)

Lord Vetinari said:


> Taste (sense): Is there a technical difference between tart and sour? If so, what is it?
> *2 ANSWERS*
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for that @Lord Vetinari 
Much appreciated

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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