# DL vs MTL juice?



## Silver

hi all

Am starting this thread to respond to a question that @Hooked asked in her recent review on a coffee juice. Juice was apparently a DL (direct lung) juice and she vaped it in MTL (mouth to lung) mode. She remarked that the flavour was very slight.

Thought it would be good to discuss this issue

Here is my take on it

MTL vaping is at much lower power with far less airflow. So the juice you vape typically needs to be stronger flavoured and with higher nic. I find it also needs to be a bit thinner because the coils for MTL tend to gunk up more with thicker juices. I like 50% PG for my MTL vapes.

With the advent of higher power higher airflow vapes today, it seems the juicemakers have moved to lesser flavoured liquids with lower nic and higher VG ratios. This (direct lung vaping) seems to be the more popular vaping style for most, blowing bigger clouds and burning through juice faster. (With so much vapour in each puff, the juice needs to have less flavour and nic in it otherwise it will be too strong.)

*Bottom line is that when you try vape a juice intended for DL in a MTL setup, the results are often not satisfactory. (my experience so far)*

I wish juicemakers would make more juices for the MTL vaping style. Not many left and they are getting harder to find.

What are your thoughts and experiences?

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2 | Winner 9 | Thanks 1


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## rogue zombie

Spot on @Silver

Just a few notes to add, as my wife's preferred vape is a Joytech AIO and MTL vaping, I have found making her juices:

Quite a few complex (recipes with loads of flavorings) don't work as well on low powered devices, and MTL. I have made her juices where she likes the flavour on my set ups, then the flavour is often muddled in the AIO. Usually the more dominant flavour mutes the rest.

And definitely stay away from dark juices, as they kill the smaller coils. Fruits, generally speaking, are usually nice and light. As well as menthol and mints.

I do make her juices at 70VG though, which the AIO handles - for the sake of less throat hit. She doesn't like the throat hit as most MTL vapers would.

Reactions: Like 4 | Thanks 1 | Informative 2


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## Hooked

Silver said:


> hi all
> 
> Am starting this thread to respond to a question that @Hooked asked in her recent review on a coffee juice. Juice was apparently a DL (direct lung) juice and she vaped it in MTL (mouth to lung) mode. She remarked that the flavour was very slight.
> 
> Thought it would be good to discuss this issue
> 
> Here is my take on it
> 
> MTL vaping is at much lower power with far less airflow. So the juice you vape typically needs to be stronger flavoured and with higher nic. I find it also needs to be a bit thinner because the coils for MTL tend to gunk up more with thicker juices. I like 50% PG for my MTL vapes.
> 
> With the advent of higher power higher airflow vapes today, it seems the juicemakers have moved to lesser flavoured liquids with lower nic and higher VG ratios. This (direct lung vaping) seems to be the more popular vaping style for most, blowing bigger clouds and burning through juice faster. (With so much vapour in each puff, the juice needs to have less flavour and nic in it otherwise it will be too strong.)
> 
> *Bottom line is that when you try vape a juice intended for DL in a MTL setup, the results are often not satisfactory. (my experience so far)*
> 
> I wish juicemakers would make more juices for the MTL vaping style. Not many left and they are getting harder to find.
> 
> What are your thoughts and experiences?



Thanks so much for the explanation, @Silver!

Reactions: Like 2


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## incredible_hullk

100% @Silver as we run in much lower wattage flavour doesn’t come through

My experience is that not all juices are mtl eg dessert juice need higher watts to get different flavour profiles out

Reactions: Like 4 | Optimistic 1


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## Silver

rogue zombie said:


> Spot on @Silver
> 
> Just a few notes to add, as my wife's preferred vape is a Joytech AIO and MTL vaping, I have found making her juices:
> 
> Quite a few complex (recipes with loads of flavorings) don't work as well on low powered devices, and MTL. I have made her juices where she likes the flavour on my set ups, then the flavour is often muddled in the AIO. Usually the more dominant flavour mutes the rest.
> 
> And definitely stay away from dark juices, as they kill the smaller coils. Fruits, generally speaking, are usually nice and light. As well as menthol and mints.
> 
> I do make her juices at 70VG though, which the AIO handles - for the sake of less throat hit - which she doesn't like.



Agreed @rogue zombie
The lightly coloured fruity menthols do work well in mtl setups
Menthol works beautifully

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## rogue zombie

Silver said:


> Agreed @rogue zombie
> The lightly coloured fruity menthols do work well in mtl setups
> Menthol works beautifully



Lol we all know your taste 

I'm becoming a serious Menthol head of late. Most other profiles are boring me quickly lately.

Nothing like an ice cold DL hitting the back of the throat. And it helps with my sinus issues.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Can relate 2


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## RenaldoRheeder

This explains a lot - no wonder I get tired of other juices so quickly - I keep on coming back to my fruity menthols all the time.

Reactions: Like 4


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## RainstormZA

rogue zombie said:


> Lol we all know your taste
> 
> I'm becoming a serious Menthol head of late. Most other profiles are boring me quickly lately.
> 
> Nothing like an ice cold DL hitting the back of the throat. And it helps with my sinus issues.



Me too. I added ice to one of my juices that I won in a comp. Made a big difference...

Reactions: Like 4


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## RichJB

You can see the effect that gear has on juice development by tracking the evolution of DIY recipes. Let's take the example of Sucker Punch Clone, a very popular recipe on ELR that was first published in 2014:
2% TFA Bavarian Cream
14% TFA Dragonfruit
4% TFA Vanilla Swirl

Now look at ID10-T's Mother of Dragon's Milk, which is very similar in terms of ingredients but was released a couple of years later:
2% TFA Bavarian Cream
7% TFA Dragonfruit
2% TFA Strawberry Ripe
2% TFA Vanilla Swirl

Note how the percentages of Dragonfruit and Swirl are halved. Sure, it's two different mixers with different philosophies. But a big part of the difference is that, when Sucker Punch Clone came out in 2014, a lot of vapers were using single coil super-ohm MTL atties vaped at 11-14W. When Mother of Dragon's Milk came out, those same vapers were using dual Claptons in DL RTAs/RDAs at 80W. There is an awful lot more vapour, ergo more flavour molecules, in each draw. So you can reduce percentages substantially and still get the same level of flavour.

When DIY started, it was common to single-flavour test at 20%.  Nowadays, DIYers do SF testing at probably 4-5% for TFA/FW/Cap, sometimes as low as 1% for Inw/JF/Flv. It does, however, make for some hilarity in reading some of the older ELR flavour recommendations. This excerpt from Concrete River's review of HS Raspberry:



> *Notes:*
> 
> Percentage used is absolutely vital here. At 1% and below, I get a jammy candy strawberry. If I start to go higher, this gets weird quick. That overpowering green flavor starts to really push toward the front and by 2% I'd call it damn near unvapeable. I'd use this as a supporting note at around .5% and maybe 1% for a primary note. I'd really advise against using this higher than that.
> 
> *Second Opinions:*
> 
> One note on ELR, reading only: "Preferred single flavor mix: 15.0% " When the revolution comes, user eggybread will be the first against the wall.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Informative 5


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## Silver

Thanks @RichJB 

That is so interesting

For me lower power MTL and higher power DL are so different
I do both and enjoy both - that likely wont change
But cant do without my lower power MTL with strong juices. The sensation is totally different. And the throat hit is very different.

I think there is a good place for both styles

Just hope the juicemakers are listening

Reactions: Like 6 | Informative 1


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## RichJB

@Silver, one of the current challenges in DIY is to develop for the various pod systems that are coming out. Quite a few top mixers, like Concrete River, are using these devices now so they naturally want to make their own juices for them. The general principle is "simple and strong". So whereas a juice developed for an RDA might have five or six flavours at low percentages, the pod juice will be two flavours at much higher percentages. It's not an invariable rule but it does seem to be the general trend.

Reactions: Like 3 | Thanks 1 | Informative 1


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## Silver

RichJB said:


> @Silver, one of the current challenges in DIY is to develop for the various pod systems that are coming out. Quite a few top mixers, like Concrete River, are using these devices now so they naturally want to make their own juices for them. The general principle is "simple and strong". So whereas a juice developed for an RDA might have five or six flavours at low percentages, the pod juice will be two flavours at much higher percentages. It's not an invariable rule but it does seem to be the general trend.



Ok great to hear

I am also talking about the commercial juicemakers
I know MTL may not be as popular but i still think there are a lot of us higher nic MTL vapers and also consider that new vapers often find it easier to start off on something like that instead of a monster RDA rig with big airflow and 3mg juice

Reactions: Like 5


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## Mr. B

Interesting thread. This would explain why I see so many pod systems with pods that aren't refillable and you have to buy the cartridges from them.

It would be great if juice manufacturers could release two versions of a juice and if not that; maybe just a small line of MTL juices with nic salts in them. 

I personally don't do MTL but think that this crowd should be catered for

Reactions: Like 4


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## JsPLAYn

Silver said:


> hi all
> 
> Am starting this thread to respond to a question that @Hooked asked in her recent review on a coffee juice. Juice was apparently a DL (direct lung) juice and she vaped it in MTL (mouth to lung) mode. She remarked that the flavour was very slight.
> 
> Thought it would be good to discuss this issue
> 
> Here is my take on it
> 
> MTL vaping is at much lower power with far less airflow. So the juice you vape typically needs to be stronger flavoured and with higher nic. I find it also needs to be a bit thinner because the coils for MTL tend to gunk up more with thicker juices. I like 50% PG for my MTL vapes.
> 
> With the advent of higher power higher airflow vapes today, it seems the juicemakers have moved to lesser flavoured liquids with lower nic and higher VG ratios. This (direct lung vaping) seems to be the more popular vaping style for most, blowing bigger clouds and burning through juice faster. (With so much vapour in each puff, the juice needs to have less flavour and nic in it otherwise it will be too strong.)
> 
> *Bottom line is that when you try vape a juice intended for DL in a MTL setup, the results are often not satisfactory. (my experience so far)*
> 
> I wish juicemakers would make more juices for the MTL vaping style. Not many left and they are getting harder to find.
> 
> What are your thoughts and experiences?


Hey there Mr @Silver 

I agree with u 100% with ur flavour analysis. I've personally experienced this. Now with the sudden influx of pods and various MTL vapes ,there are now quite a few MTL juices available and from what I've heard, some if not most of the regular juice makers are currently busy with nic salt OG recipe for the MTL vapers. 

Hope it happens soon tho as I'm starting to take to the MTL aswell but ask @Jengz @vaperepublic regarding element Ns ... they real good flavours 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1


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## Steyn777

Glad I found this Thread. Boet just bought a pod, hoping the older brother knew what it was. Hehe

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver

JsPLAYn said:


> Hey there Mr @Silver
> 
> I agree with u 100% with ur flavour analysis. I've personally experienced this. Now with the sudden influx of pods and various MTL vapes ,there are now quite a few MTL juices available and from what I've heard, some if not most of the regular juice makers are currently busy with nic salt OG recipe for the MTL vapers.
> 
> Hope it happens soon tho as I'm starting to take to the MTL aswell but ask @Jengz @vaperepublic regarding element Ns ... they real good flavours
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk



Thanks @JsPLAYn 
That is good to hear

I have not experimented much with nic salts but the few times I have tried nic salts, i find they are very smooth with little throat hit.

I crave strong throat hit for my MTL vaping, so I am thinking that nic salts for my MTL wont suit me

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## JsPLAYn

Silver said:


> Thanks @JsPLAYn
> That is good to hear
> 
> I have not experimented much with nic salts but the few times I have tried nic salts, i find they are very smooth with little throat hit.
> 
> I crave strong throat hit for my MTL vaping, so I am thinking that nic salts for my MTL wont suit me


35mg give me quite the throat hit and light headedness... maybe try 50mg .. 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


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## Silver

JsPLAYn said:


> 35mg give me quite the throat hit and light headedness... maybe try 50mg ..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk



I hear you, thanks

But the way I understand the nic salts is that they give you the longer term nic loading without much immediate throat hit on the vape itself. That seems to suit most but for me I like my sharp punch on the vape itself. Normal nic does well at 18mg for me!

Reactions: Like 3


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## KUDU

Silver said:


> I hear you, thanks
> 
> But the way I understand the nic salts is that they give you the longer term nic loading without much immediate throat hit on the vape itself. That seems to suit most but for me I like my sharp punch on the vape itself. Normal nic does well at 18mg for me![/


@Silver, This might become a case of Juicemakers v "Master" Juicemakers?


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## Silver

KUDU said:


> @Silver, This might become a case of Juicemakers v "Master" Juicemakers?



Thanks @KUDU but I dont understand fully what you mean?


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## Andre

When I started off with my 4 Joyetech Ecos (1 tobacco, 1 dessert, 1 fruity, 1 menthol/mint), which powers at a constant low 6.8W, I upped the flavours by 25% and mixed at 45PG/55VG. Doubled the nicotine. I soon realized it is not necessary to up the flavours or mix at a different ratio - nicotine certainly needs to be higher though. My normal 40PG/60VG works perfectly well as does the normal concentrate percentages. Neither have I found that more complex juices are muted in the Eco. Of course, the flavours will never be as good as in your favourite RTA or RDA, but still more than good enough. 

A Gusto Mini Pod refilled with a flavour-upped, higher nicotine (free base), higher PG juice, gave, to the contrary, a horrible vape. So, maybe the type of engine room also plays a role. 

A juice will taste different is different devices, but I doubt if commercial juices are geared towards DL vaping regarding flavour content. Regarding nicotine content for sure, but that is changing. I think we are already seeing higher free base nic commercial juices following the nic salt juices, which did not really take off as expected.


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## Schnappie

Funny that you started this thread @Silver , myself and @Stosta were just discussing this on Friday.

I always used to be a restricted lung/mtl vaper and found xxx/red pill and similar to be unbeatable in those devices e.g kayfun 5 etc...

I have gone onto drippers and dual coil tanks and found myself unknowingly moving on to other juices and profiles and never quite enjoyed xxx the way I used to. I ended up vaping more desserts and my strong fruity menthols changed with time to complex fruits more with ws23 or koolada rather than mentol.

I got a beserker mtl rda a few days ago and grabbed a bottle of xxx again and it has'nt tasted this good in a long while. I stand to be corrected but dare I say that a lot of the fruity menthols that have been on the market for years have been geared towards lower wattage setups, and just gets lost or overpowering in high wattage devices which explains why people that love juices like xxx, won't nescessarily find dual coil, or even big single coil tanks good enough.

I think a lot of impressions on juices get underwhelmed because of the setups people use and vice versa, it really is something that gets easily overlooked by the average buyer. It might be a good thing to mention to potential customers to take into account their vaping style, but also which juices will suit it the best. Some great juices might get overlooked simply because its not suited to the gear you are using. Well thats what I found for my tastebuds anyway

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## RainstormZA

KUDU said:


> @Silver, This might become a case of Juicemakers v "Master" Juicemakers?


Eliquid Masterchef, anyone?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zebelial

Hi Guys/Girls, I recently got myself a Berserker mini MTL(This is my first MTL). I am absolutely loving this little RTA. Used my favourite liquid, cosmic fog chilled tobacco in it and it still is awesome then I tried pancake man tooty fruity which I love on my Blitzen rta but HELL it was awfull and vomit inducing in the MTL .

Now my question is what liquids/recipes will go well with a MTL setup? Im not keen on overly menthol but love soft mint, but if the liquid/recipe is good I vape it.

Any help or guidance will be much appreciated.

Reactions: Can relate 1


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar

Silver said:


> Agreed @rogue zombie
> The lightly coloured fruity menthols do work well in mtl setups
> Menthol works beautifully


Menthol is like push-up's of DIY, add it and the outcome is nice

Reactions: Like 1


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## HeinTheTerrible

Zebelial said:


> Hi Guys/Girls, I recently got myself a Berserker mini MTL(This is my first MTL). I am absolutely loving this little RTA. Used my favourite liquid, cosmic fog chilled tobacco in it and it still is awesome then I tried pancake man tooty fruity which I love on my Blitzen rta but HELL it was awfull and vomit inducing in the MTL .
> 
> Now my question is what liquids/recipes will go well with a MTL setup? Im not keen on overly menthol but love soft mint, but if the liquid/recipe is good I vape it.
> 
> Any help or guidance will be much appreciated.



I'm also looking to DIY my first juice for my MTL and low power single coil setups. Difficult to find off the shelve juices with little or no Nic content that works well in MTL setups.


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