# Close to giving up



## Mo5es (17/4/17)

So I tried my hand at a snake oil clone (10% tfa pear, 3% tfa coconut extra, 7%tfa Bavarian cream) and it came out terrible, with a really strong perfume taste. I thought maybe it was just bad beginners luck and went for a much simpler mothers milk recipe (8% cap vbic, 6% tfa strawberry) which is supposed to be at least vapable after shaking.. But no that didn't work either.

I'm not the most patient guy so I've tried accelerated steeping using a water bath, leaving the caps off, nuking it in the microwave, heck I even set up a air pump to simulate mixing. But still no luck.

Does anyone have aany tips? Am I doing something wrong? Also if someone has a single flavor shake and vape that they'd love to share that would be great 

TLDR - suck at making my own juice, requires help or single flavor shake and vape

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## zadiac (17/4/17)

Mo5es said:


> So I tried my hand at a snake oil clone (10% tfa pear, 3% tfa coconut extra, 7%tfa Bavarian cream) and it came out terrible, with a really strong perfume taste. I thought maybe it was just bad beginners luck and went for a much simpler mothers milk recipe (8% cap vbic, 6% tfa strawberry) which is supposed to be at least vapable after shaking.. But no that didn't work either.
> 
> I'm not the most patient guy so I've tried accelerated steeping using a water bath, leaving the caps off, nuking it in the microwave, heck I even set up a air pump to simulate mixing. But still no luck.
> 
> ...



You HAVE to let it steep. It will only cure over time. Quick steeping does not work, no matter what you hear or read about it.

Reactions: Agree 7


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## Mo5es (17/4/17)

zadiac said:


> You HAVE to let it steep. It will only cure over time. Quick steeping does not work, no matter what you hear or read about it.



I had a feeling this was going to be what it takes. Guess I'll have to bite the bullet and wait it out

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RichJB (17/4/17)

1. Try newer recipes. Older recipes which use flavours at 10%+ tend to be not so good. They were developed during times when people were MTL vaping at 10W. Today's sub-ohm devices don't require such heavy flavouring.
2. Do not try to speed steep. It wrecks juices.
3. Flick-a-da-wrist and put it away to steep for at least two weeks. Eight weeks is often better. You won't want to wait that long but try at least two weeks.

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## Silver (17/4/17)

Hang in there @Mo5es 
You are doing great. Don't give up

I can't advise on the DIY side of things but have a look at the 1 or 2 flavour recipe thread:
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/1-or-2-flavour-diy-recipes.t30441/page-7#post-518233

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## Mo5es (17/4/17)

Silver said:


> Hang in there @Mo5es
> You are doing great. Don't give up
> 
> I can't advise on the DIY side of things but have a look at the 1 or 2 flavour recipe thread:
> https://www.ecigssa.co.za/1-or-2-flavour-diy-recipes.t30441/page-7#post-518233


Thanks a lot bud

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## Mo5es (17/4/17)

RichJB said:


> 1. Try newer recipes. Older recipes which use flavours at 10%+ tend to be not so good. They were developed during times when people were MTL vaping at 10W. Today's sub-ohm devices don't require such heavy flavouring.
> 2. Do not try to speed steep. It wrecks juices.
> 3. Flick-a-da-wrist and put it away to steep for at least two weeks. Eight weeks is often better. You won't want to wait that long but try at least two weeks.


Now I'm hoping I didn't completely ruin my juices with the hot water baths 

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## RichJB (17/4/17)

A warm bath probably won't ruin a juice, I was thinking more of the microwaving. That said, I've never felt the need to give juices a warm bath. Time is the best. If you leave a juice for a month, it doesn't need anything.


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## Mo5es (17/4/17)

RichJB said:


> A warm bath probably won't ruin a juice, I was thinking more of the microwaving. That said, I've never felt the need to give juices a warm bath. Time is the best. If you leave a juice for a month, it doesn't need anything.


I'll be doing just that. It's a good thing I only microwaved 15ml from the entire batch 

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## Effjh (17/4/17)

Mo5es said:


> Now I'm hoping I didn't completely ruin my juices with the hot water baths
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk



Hot bath is actually not that bad granted you have no Nicotine in the mix yet. It can help thin everything out for a bit and make the initial shake have a better mixing effect, but it is not steeped by any means at that point.

If you have Nicotine in the mix already, you want to keep it away from heat as much as possible as that will cause the nic to oxidise and may result in a horrible throat hit.

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## Mo5es (17/4/17)

Effjh said:


> Hot bath is actually not that bad granted you have no Nicotine in the mix yet. It can help thin everything out for a bit and make the initial shake have a better mixing effect, but it is not steeped by any means at that point.
> 
> If you have Nicotine in the mix already, you want to keep it away from heat as much as possible as that will cause the nic to oxidise and may result in a horrible throat hit.


Even with the cap off? I haven't made anything with nic yet, one step at a time 

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## Effjh (18/4/17)

Mo5es said:


> Even with the cap off? I haven't made anything with nic yet, one step at a time
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk



Cap off generally results in loss of flavour potency as the volatiles escape, heat will accelerate this too. Personally I never do this, but some find it useful in cases where a certain concentrate contains a lot of alcohol that may cause unpleasant notes in the mix.

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## hands (18/4/17)

Don't stress if your DIY juice don't come out perfect with your first try, it will get a lot better once you get to know your concentrates and flavor preferences. 
Coconut extra is not the greatest and has a very strong chemical taste(for me anyway) 
If your juice turns out bad trough it down the drain and move on.
It helps to know what your concentrates taste like as a stand alone, so make 3ml batches of your concentrates without nicotine and have a taste to avoid running into surprises.
If its horrible try a different brand till you find what works for you.
It also helps to read other peoples notes/ratings on concentrates before you buy and look up the recommended percentages before you mix them up.

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## Mo5es (18/4/17)

Some sound advice In this thread. That's a lot guys much appreciated 

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## aktorsyl (18/4/17)

Can also testify from DIY experience (although I started out with MTL mixes and moved to DTL mixes with higher VG later on only) that the first few mixes you make will.. WILL.. turn out nasty. My learning experience resulted in the following tips I could share:

1) If - like me, initially - you find commercial 3mg/ml Nic juices to be too weak, don't just assume bumping up the nic is going to make it stronger without having a flavour effect. It will make a flavour difference, even if your nic is of the highest quality. Personally I found 3mg to be way too weak. I bumped it up to 4.5mg and the taste was pretty damn disgusting. Bumped back down to 3.5mg and the taste normalised.

2) As was mentioned in this thread: steep steep steep. Pure fruit flavours usually require shorter steeping times (even shake&vape recipes should usually steep for at least 3 days or so in my opinion), but creamy recipes.. steep it for at least 2 weeks. Tobacco recipes - 4 weeks. Don't try to accelerate the steeping process: sometimes it works, but more often than not it messes up the juice. Personally, after mixing my juice I heat the bottle up slightly under a hot tap to thin out the VG just a bit, and then shake it religiously. After that I put it in a cool, dark cupboard and only shake it 2 or 3 times a day. No heating after that initial one. For creamy juices I take my first taste test after day 5, knowing full well that it's not nearly steeped enough yet but at least it gives me a slight idea of the flavour profile. Having said that, after that first taste test it goes straight back into the steeping cupboard for a week or more.

3) Be careful of overflavouring. Many people make the mistake of thinking the more of a specific flavour you add, the more you're going to taste that flavour. However, oftentimes the chemical reaction involved in mixing&steeping actually has the opposite effect. The same obviously goes for underflavouring.

4) Random observation: Strawberry Ripe without a sweetener doesn't yield a strong strawberry taste. Many Mother's Milk clones just have you add Strawberry Ripe to the creams. For me personally this is fine, as I prefer a very muted low-key strawberry taste in M.Milk juices.

5) When vaping your new juice, play around with the temperature/wattage. I found that a mixed-berry & yoghurt juice I made tasted like dishwashing liquid at 40W on an 0.3ohm coil. Bumping up the wattage to 55W brought out the flavour a little more. Interestingly enough, after steeping the flavour for another 4 days, it vaped just fine at 40W.

6) Don't give up just yet. It takes a long time and many, many mixes before you start making decent juice. It's part of the learning process. I'd suggest doing small 10-20ml sample mixes so you don't waste too many ingredients on your samplers. If you use nicotine, I actually disagree with the people saying don't add nicotine to your sample mixes. In my opinion you absolutely should. Nicotine can and does change the flavour of a juice.

7) Another tip on nicotine base.. I'm not saying this is the golden rule to follow, just what works for me. I have a 100% VG nicotine base at 36 mg/ml. I store it in the fridge in 100ml glass bottles. I take out a bottle about 2 hrs before mixing so the VG can thin out a bit. Then shake the hell out of that bottle. There are mixed schools of thought on this.. some people say it oxidises the nicotine too quickly, others say you end up with hotspots in the nicotine if you don't shake it. I haven't had any noticeable oxidation with the shaking method, and much prefer that to having hotspots. Shake, shake.. and shake again. (Bearing in mind that shaking VG is like running a marathon with weights attached to your ankles.. it takes time, patience and therapy).

7b) Also shake your flavour concentrates before using.

8) You don't really need a milk frother or electric mixer to mix your juice when you're done.. just shake that bottle like there's no tomorrow.

9) Make notes. Religiously. I have a Google Sheets spreadsheet listing all my mixes. On it I note down the following:

- Recipe name/link
- Bottle number (I number my bottles instead of naming them)
- VG/PG ratio
- Nic strength
- Date mixed
- Remarks while mixing
- Remarks during first taste
- Remarks after steeping

It may seem excessive, but it does help when you refer back to a recipe to see how your remarks/findings change over time as the mix matures. Or to identify simple remarks such as "Strawberry Ripe smells very concentrated but has muted taste unless mixed with sucralose". Or whatever.

And finally,
10) Be extremely careful with nic bases. Respect it. It's dangerous. It can make you very, very sick and can even be lethal. It also absorbs through the skin. I never go above 36mg/ml nic base, and even then I use nitrile gloves (nicotine can on occasion get through latex gloves) and a hell of a lot of care and focus. Many people call me overcautious, but I'd much rather be overcautious when it comes to nicotine. I don't care who thinks it's amusing or weird. It's effectively a poison and should be handled with great care. Also check and double-check your recipe calculator to ensure that you're adding the right amount of nicotine to your mix to get a 3mg/ml (or whatever) end-result. Adding too much can be dangerous or at the least taste like you're sniffing sriracha salt.

Don't get me wrong: I don't mean to scare you, just to emphasize the care required. Don't be scared, just respect the substance and handle it with the necessary precautions, focus and care.

EDIT: One last tip.. 11) I found that I mixed my juice recipes much more accurately when I started mixing by weight. A gram scale is relatively inexpensive and much more accurate than weighing by ml or by drops.

EDIT2: Another one I forgot: Strawberry is actually a bit weird in the sense that not all people can taste it equally. You'd be surprised how many people just can't taste it properly when it's in an ejuice - no matter how strong it is or which strawberry concentrate variant it is.

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## kev mac (18/4/17)

Mo5es said:


> So I tried my hand at a snake oil clone (10% tfa pear, 3% tfa coconut extra, 7%tfa Bavarian cream) and it came out terrible, with a really strong perfume taste. I thought maybe it was just bad beginners luck and went for a much simpler mothers milk recipe (8% cap vbic, 6% tfa strawberry) which is supposed to be at least vapable after shaking.. But no that didn't work either.
> 
> I'm not the most patient guy so I've tried accelerated steeping using a water bath, leaving the caps off, nuking it in the microwave, heck I even set up a air pump to simulate mixing. But still no luck.
> 
> ...


I got a good Mustard Milk recipe from a forum member that is EZ.Do a forum search for Mustard Milk there are many there.


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## Huffapuff (18/4/17)

Mo5es said:


> So I tried my hand at a snake oil clone (10% tfa pear, 3% tfa coconut extra, 7%tfa Bavarian cream) and it came out terrible, with a really strong perfume taste. I thought maybe it was just bad beginners luck and went for a much simpler mothers milk recipe (8% cap vbic, 6% tfa strawberry) which is supposed to be at least vapable after shaking.. But no that didn't work either.
> 
> I'm not the most patient guy so I've tried accelerated steeping using a water bath, leaving the caps off, nuking it in the microwave, heck I even set up a air pump to simulate mixing. But still no luck.
> 
> ...


Also take a look at your PG:VG ratio - maybe you can use more PG to boost the flavour a bit...


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## Silver (18/4/17)

Wow, great tips in that post above @aktorsyl !
Thanks for the contribution

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Spydro (18/4/17)

Mo5es said:


> So I tried my hand at a snake oil clone (10% tfa pear, 3% tfa coconut extra, 7%tfa Bavarian cream) and it came out terrible, with a really strong perfume taste. I thought maybe it was just bad beginners luck and went for a much simpler mothers milk recipe (8% cap vbic, 6% tfa strawberry) which is supposed to be at least vapable after shaking.. But no that didn't work either.
> 
> I'm not the most patient guy so I've tried accelerated steeping using a water bath, leaving the caps off, nuking it in the microwave, heck I even set up a air pump to simulate mixing. But still no luck.
> 
> ...



TFA Coconut Extra is one of the worst of the perfume tasting flavor concentrates. There are better choices out there.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Darryn Du Plessis (18/4/17)

Do NOT use radiation from a microwave. #Negative 



Mo5es said:


> So I tried my hand at a snake oil clone (10% tfa pear, 3% tfa coconut extra, 7%tfa Bavarian cream) and it came out terrible, with a really strong perfume taste. I thought maybe it was just bad beginners luck and went for a much simpler mothers milk recipe (8% cap vbic, 6% tfa strawberry) which is supposed to be at least vapable after shaking.. But no that didn't work either.
> 
> I'm not the most patient guy so I've tried accelerated steeping using a water bath, leaving the caps off, nuking it in the microwave, heck I even set up a air pump to simulate mixing. But still no luck.
> 
> ...


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## Tanja (18/4/17)

I find that most of the fruity juices I make are fine straight away... I have a simple pineapple... mango... Raspberry and strawberry recipe that we love... and it's great immediately... creamy ones need to stand a bit... but most are ok straight away as well... 

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## zandernwn (19/4/17)

I'll just add my 2c (bit late, the folks here have really given you great advice - heed it)

I have grown to accept that most online recipes are overflavoured as a rule, especially the cult recipes like mustard milk, snake oil, suckerpunch punch. Yes they taste good by I drop the % by around 15% off the bat. After a while you will learn what flavorings should be used at what % and then it becomes a bit more of a calculated adjustment.

Try newer recipes.

Id10t, philosophucker, Chrisdvr, notcharlesManson are some of my favourite mixers. Search for them on alltheflavors or elr. They are generally better (most of the old recipes are overflavoured and mixing has come a long way since then)

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## Mo5es (19/4/17)

zandernwn said:


> I'll just add my 2c (bit late, the folks here have really given you great advice - heed it)
> 
> I have grown to accept that most online recipes are overflavoured as a rule, especially the cult recipes like mustard milk, snake oil, suckerpunch punch. Yes they taste good by I drop the % by around 15% off the bat. After a while you will learn what flavorings should be used at what % and then it becomes a bit more of a calculated adjustment.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot. Would you suggest I dilute the juices I made with some people and vg?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## aktorsyl (19/4/17)

Mo5es said:


> Thanks a lot. Would you suggest I dilute the juices I made with some people and vg?


Dilute it with people? What kind of DIY lab do you have there? 
Assuming you mean PG, you can try - as long as you do it in relation to the VG. But the chances of getting that dilution right with the flavouring concentrations... you might be better off tossing it and creating a new one. Having said that, PG & VG are cheap and it doesn't hurt to experiment by adding those to the current mix. The only problem is if it turns out great, you're going to have a bit of a rough time calculating how to get that exact same mix again later. But this is all about experimentation, after all!

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## zandernwn (19/4/17)

Sure. Unless you are running big ass coils. For tanks and droppers with modest builds I'd say dilute by about 5% and check if you want to go down some more. Do it in 5% intervals

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## zandernwn (19/4/17)

Mixing with people and vaping on droppers Hahaha. We all need to learn how to type

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## aktorsyl (19/4/17)

zandernwn said:


> Mixing with people and vaping on droppers Hahaha. We all need to learn how to type
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Hahha.
"Siri, what are the main components of ejuice?"
"VG and people"
"You mean PG, right?"
"No.... "

Machines are taking over.

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## RichJB (19/4/17)

If you want to dilute juice, just make up your own premix to the same ratio as the juice. If you like 70/30 juice, make up a 70/30 premix. It's really simple. Get yourself a 100ml HDPE dropper bottle, add 31.08g PG and 88.2g VG, give it a shake and there you go: 70/30 premix. Apart from diluting juice, you can also use it to clean out a flavour from your wicks before dripping another flavour, or to make up 10ml testers that have no nic.

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## Mo5es (19/4/17)

Haha autocorrect is a b*%#.. I've diluted the mustard milk down to 10% flavour, just going to give it a warm bath to thin the vg and then I'll test it out

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## Darryn Du Plessis (19/4/17)

Mo5es said:


> Haha autocorrect is a b*%#.. I've diluted the mustard milk down to 10% flavour, just going to give it a warm bath to thin the vg and then I'll test it out
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk


#swiftkey learns from what you type, and where on the keyboard you press to type  swiftkey IS the best.

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