# Vaping is lethal . . .



## SmokeyJoe (9/3/19)

https://citizen.co.za/lifestyle/fit...ife/2097746/new-study-shows-vaping-is-lethal/

Reactions: Like 2 | Creative 1


----------



## SmokeyJoe (9/3/19)

What a croc of sh1t

Reactions: Agree 6


----------



## Resistance (9/3/19)

What next?

Reactions: Agree 4


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (9/3/19)

The irony is there is actually a depression thread on ecigssa.

Reactions: Funny 5


----------



## Asterix (9/3/19)

“Because of the limitations of the data sets, it’s impossible to say that e-cigarettes _caused_ any of the noted cardiovascular health effects—just that they were associated. In addition, notes Vindhyal, the study doesn’t differentiate people who were non-smokers and started using e-cigarettes from those who switched from regular cigarettes to e-cigarettes. “You can argue that these patients are previous smokers who switched,” he says, which would affect the risk for heart disease.”

Above is left out of the article. Sensasionlist headlining from Citizen, selecting certain passages only.

Also, he concedes that data was obtained from self reporting, so no control group. I.e participants had an health issue which is then easily blamed on vaping.

“He added that self-reported data is also subject to recall bias. The researchers were also unable to determine whether these outcomes may have occurred prior to using e-cigarettes. Further longitudinal data is needed.”

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 2 | Informative 3


----------



## Adephi (9/3/19)

What these studies do not keep in mind is that the greater majority of vapers are ex-smokers and therefore carry the risk of heart and lung problems. It takes up to 10 years to be completely clear of all the negative effects of smoking.

As for the depression part they are also looking at it wrong. People who are depressed have a tendency to smoke. Not the other way around. And vaping is thus used as an alternative. Why would anybody be depressed because they are vaping a strawberry cream or cinnamon doughnut juice? Unless its a really bad juice..

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 8 | Funny 1


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (9/3/19)

Asterix said:


> “Because of the limitations of the data sets, it’s impossible to say that e-cigarettes _caused_ any of the noted cardiovascular health effects—just that they were associated. In addition, notes Vindhyal, the study doesn’t differentiate people who were non-smokers and started using e-cigarettes from those who switched from regular cigarettes to e-cigarettes. “You can argue that these patients are previous smokers who switched,” he says, which would affect the risk for heart disease.”
> 
> Above is left out of the article. Sensasionlist headlining from Citizen, selecting certain passages only.
> 
> ...


Ok so we can vape, no harm will come to us?


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (9/3/19)

Adephi said:


> . It takes up to 10 years to be completely clear of all the negative effects of smoking.
> .


You sure about that Dr?


----------



## Silver (9/3/19)

Asterix said:


> “Because of the limitations of the data sets, it’s impossible to say that e-cigarettes _caused_ any of the noted cardiovascular health effects—just that they were associated. In addition, notes Vindhyal, the study doesn’t differentiate people who were non-smokers and started using e-cigarettes from those who switched from regular cigarettes to e-cigarettes. “You can argue that these patients are previous smokers who switched,” he says, which would affect the risk for heart disease.”
> 
> Above is left out of the article. Sensasionlist headlining from Citizen, selecting certain passages only.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that @Asterix 
Would you mind sharing a link to the original study

Cant stand it when media houses pick parts of studies and leave out important pieces that tell the full story.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


----------



## Asterix (9/3/19)

Silver said:


> Thanks for that @Asterix
> Would you mind sharing a link to the original study
> 
> Cant stand it when media houses pick parts of studies and leave out important pieces that tell the full story.


Sure. 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190307103111.htm

And
https://www.popsci.com/vaping-risks-heart-disease

Reactions: Winner 2 | Thanks 3 | Informative 1


----------



## Elmien (9/3/19)

http://www.ecigarette-research.org/research/index.php/whats-new/2019/268-ecig-heart

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2


----------



## Silver (9/3/19)

This is very interesting

Have taken a look at the articles and this is how I understand it:

So they used data from a few annual surveys to assess the association of non-smokers, smokers and vapers with various health issues.

Using the following link that @Asterix posted:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190307103111.htm

They found that a smoker and vaper had elevated probabilities of having various health issues *when compared to non-smokers*. Here are the elevated probabilities they found

(I have to assume that they are comparing these risks to someone who has never smoked or vaped before. I.e. a never smoker, never vaper.)

For a *smoker*:
Heart attack - *165% *
Coronary artery disease - *94%*
Stroke - *78%*

For a *vaper*
Heart attack - *56%*
Coronary artery disease - *10%*
Stroke - *30%*

The way I understand the above is that a smoker would have a 165% more chance of getting a heart attack than a non smoker and a vaper would have a 56% more chance.

Looking at the above data, it seems that your chances of getting the above health conditions (versus a non smoker non vaper) are quite a bit lower with vaping than with smoking. One third for heart attacks, one ninth for coronary artery disease and a bit less than a third for stroke. Not bad.

*However*

By their own admission in the following article that @Asterix also posted:
https://www.popsci.com/vaping-risks-heart-disease#page-3

They admit that the probabilities for vaping may not be entirely vaping's fault because they did not get data on whether that person was a previous smoker or not.

If the vapers in the study were not smokers before (unlikely) then this data would show that vaping is nowhere near as safe as Public Health England says - i.e. 95% safer than smoking. Its more like 60-70% safer for heart attack and stroke.

But, what are the chances that the vapers in the study were not smokers before? I would say the vast majority - (my guess at least 90%) were previously smokers.

So the question is how much of those vaping probabilities quoted above come from vaping versus previous smoking?

I don't know the answer to that but since the risks are down for vaping, I would imagine that the risks of vaping alone (i.e. if you never smoked before) must be lower than what was reported for vaping in this study. I also think that the stats reported here for vaping are actually a blend of the smoking risks (which are weaning off as time goes by that you don't smoke) and whatever vaping risks are there.

It would be very helpful in these annual surveys if they could ascertain whether a vaper was previously a smoker AND also for how many years a person was vaping and not smoking.

Would love to see that data and the analysis thereof. My guess would be that the longer you have stopped smoking, the lower your risk probabilities would be as a vaper. And it would also be interesting to see what the risk factors are for those that only vape but have never smoked before.

Thanks for posting this @SmokeyJoe
Very interesting indeed

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 6 | Informative 2


----------



## SmokeyJoe (9/3/19)

Just another study without any clear cut facts. All this is going to do is raise the stigma associated with vaping. In retrospect this article will have direct influence on smoking deaths. Instead of praising the lives vaping has saved, this will instead cause current smokers not to switch to a healthier vaping alternative

Reactions: Agree 8


----------



## MrGSmokeFree (9/3/19)

Thank you for posting the thread @SmokeyJoe ummm all the tobacco companies are going to love this. I wonder who paid for the study?

Reactions: Agree 7


----------



## Neal (9/3/19)

In a recent study it was found that The Citizen was lethal to the brain cells of people who had previously read a newspaper that was not compiled and written by a bunch of complete idiots. The collective staff IQ of the staff of The Citizen was then measured with the result coming in at minus 16, which could have been worse as the Editor and the majority of the journalists were busy getting dronk in the nearest bar when the tests were taken.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Winner 1 | Funny 10


----------



## Vilaishima (9/3/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> You sure about that Dr?


Yes

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (9/3/19)

Vilaishima said:


> Yes


Oooh please give us proof

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Adephi (9/3/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Oooh please give us proof



Sorry, I was wrong. It's actually 15 years

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (9/3/19)

Adephi said:


> Sorry, I was wrong. It's actually 15 years


Well excuse me, that states that after 15 years your risk of coronary heart disease is that of a non smoker?
You said you will be clear of all the negative effects of smoking. So what about the cancer risk? You think if you ever smoked and quit you will have the same risk of cancer than someone that never smoked?
Do you think dead cell in your lungs caused by smoking can be resurrected? Are you and @Vilaishima friends with pastor Lukau

Your seriously dont have to go look on page 256 678 on google, you can take any article on the first(most relevant) page when you google this

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Hooked (9/3/19)

Life is lethal.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Vilaishima (9/3/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Oooh please give us proof


Not feeding the troll any more.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Vilaishima (9/3/19)

Hooked said:


> Life is lethal.


Yeah, nobody gets out alive.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## ARYANTO (9/3/19)

Adephi said:


> What these studies do not keep in mind is that the greater majority of vapers are ex-smokers and therefore carry the risk of heart and lung problems. It takes up to 10 years to be completely clear of all the negative effects of smoking.
> 
> As for the depression part they are also looking at it wrong. People who are depressed have a tendency to smoke. Not the other way around. And vaping is thus used as an alternative. Why would anybody be depressed because they are vaping a strawberry cream or cinnamon doughnut juice? Unless its a really bad juice..


There I AGREE totally ... must be a real shxtty juice!

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Jean claude Vaaldamme (9/3/19)

Vilaishima said:


> Not feeding the troll any more.


So let me just understand, people are giving incorrect facts( or fake news as Donald duck would say), then if you question it and ask for proof, you a troll?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## zadiac (9/3/19)

Driving is also lethal, if done wrong.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


----------



## RichJB (9/3/19)

Adephi said:


> As for the depression part they are also looking at it wrong. People who are depressed have a tendency to smoke. Not the other way around.



Correct. Smoking rates among those with schizophrenia are three times higher than among the general populace. I have yet to hear this used as evidence that tobacco causes schizophrenia.

Although it's also interesting why this should be. I mean, it's not like some non-smoker is going to think "I don't feel good due to my schizophrenia. Hey, I know, I'll start smoking!" I think what happens is that people with mental conditions, like most others in society, will experiment with smoking in their teens. For whatever reason, their brains latch onto the effects of nicotine much more readily and create dependence quickly.

Reactions: Like 3 | Creative 1


----------



## lesvaches (9/3/19)

zadiac said:


> Driving is also lethal, if done wrong.


or anywhere near a taxi

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


----------



## Vilaishima (9/3/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> So let me just understand, people are giving incorrect facts( or fake news as Donald duck would say), then if you question it and ask for proof, you a troll?


It's the tone, not the message. Intended to get reaction.

But if you insist. Since you know it does not take 10 years, where did you get your medical degree Dr?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Adephi (9/3/19)

Vilaishima said:


> It's the tone, not the message. Intended to get reaction.
> 
> But if you insist. Since you know it does not take 10 years, where did you get your medical degree Dr?



He is referring to my previous post that I later corrected with a credible link with credible cross references that he later questioned as well.

This matter is not even worth spending electrons sending posts over the internet.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Silver (9/3/19)

Guys, please cool it 

Don't get personal. 

If you want to get personal with each other and ask each other if they have medical degrees etc - then please have those types of comments and discussions in private

Let's focus on the thread topic at hand

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 1


----------



## Resistance (9/3/19)

This study shows me that my previous study ,implying learned people are idiots too... Is Confirmend.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Resistance (9/3/19)

I suffer from more issues driving behind a diesel bakkie

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 1


----------

