# The rise (or fall?) of unflavoured juice



## RichJB (16/11/18)

Hey all

I've just been reading through the 2018 National Youth Tobacco Survey which was done by the CDC in the US. Natch, it rambles on about the "epidemic of teen vaping" and also addresses the importance of flavours in juice. This excerpt in particular caught my eye:



> The 2018 NYTS also found that among high school e-cigarette users, there was a significant increase in current flavored e-cigarette use within the past year, from 60.9 percent to 67.8 percent.



It's not the 67.8% figure that interests me but rather the corollary that 32.2% of US high school vapers are vaping an unflavoured juice, i.e. base and nic. Initially I thought this was ridiculous. I do know a couple of members here on the forum do vape unflavoured base. But the idea that fully one-third of US kids vape nic & base just sounds flat wrong.

So I did some google-fu and came up with this article, which proposes that vaping flavourless juice is the "hot new trend" among vapers. Gee, I dunno, I must have missed that. And the NYTS seems to suggest the opposite: that flavoured juice, not flavourless, is the hot new trend. Among kids anyway.

Something just isn't right here. I'm being asked to believe that fully a third of US kids vape only nic & base, no flavour. And it used to be even higher. Is the US just crazy? Are Saffies doing it too and I'm just not seeing all these unflavoured juices in stores, which are apparently so popular? What is going on here?

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## Puff the Magic Dragon (16/11/18)

@RichJB . I'm really surprised that you didn't know that most of us vape unflavoured juice.....

But seriously, I'm just as confused as you are. l also remember one or two members saying that they vape unflavoured juice. That is but a handful out of over 10 000.

Quite honestly I would also be worried if almost a third of the youth vaped unflavoured juice. That would mean that they are only vaping for the nic, and probably at high doses.

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## RichJB (16/11/18)

As enthusiasts/hobbyists, we can get the wrong impression of the broader vaping demographic. I was surprised to learn that there is still a slight majority of vapers around the world who are dual-users and smoke as well. I hardly know any vapers who smoke so I would have put dual-users at about 10% of the vaping population. But the stats don't lie, country after country reports large numbers of dual-users.

So I guess it is possible that huge numbers of US (and maybe even SA) kids are vaping base. But it does seem odd to me. I can't believe either the study or the vaping article which says that vaping base has become a new trend. It might have but it's not in evidence from what I see of vapers here in SA. Are there *any* juice retailers in SA who sell unflavoured juices?

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## M.Adhir (16/11/18)

i've actually been considering switching to this. buying a pg/vg premix with nic.
primarily to cut down on vaping (way too many nice flavours out there).
all with the end goal of tapering down nic dependency, and ultimately (hopefully) breaking the habit totally.

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## Silver (16/11/18)

I hear you @RichJB 
Hard to believe so many people are vaping unflavoured in that research

I did a review on unflavoured nic base (clean cut) from VM a while ago
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/vapour-mountain-juice-reviews.t473/page-15#post-206622
Lol

Have vaped unflavoured only a handful of times in the past few years, mainly to "clean" a coil/wick when not in the mood to change. But its quite boring for me. 

The thing is if there werent any tasty flavoured juices (in my case fruity menthols and tobaccoes) there is a fair chance I wouldnt have stuck with vaping and be back on the cigs. 

This is a difficult one. I can understand that flavours make vaping very appealing - even to the youth. And it may also entice some non smokers. 

However, i think flavours make vaping the powerful tool it is to help smokers quit the stinkies and move onto vaping. Without the flavours i dont think vaping would have been as successful. But thats just my opinion.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 6


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## Hooked (16/11/18)

RichJB said:


> As enthusiasts/hobbyists, we can get the wrong impression of the broader vaping demographic. I was surprised to learn that there is still a slight majority of vapers around the world who are dual-users and smoke as well. I hardly know any vapers who smoke so I would have put dual-users at about 10% of the vaping population. But the stats don't lie, country after country reports large numbers of dual-users.
> 
> So I guess it is possible that huge numbers of US (and maybe even SA) kids are vaping base. But it does seem odd to me. I can't believe either the study or the vaping article which says that vaping base has become a new trend. It might have but it's not in evidence from what I see of vapers here in SA. Are there *any* juice retailers in SA who sell unflavoured juices?



An acquaintance of mine smokes during the day, then in the evening, after her kid has gone to sleep, she relaxes with a vape. So for her vaping is akin to relaxing with a drink in the evening.


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## Hooked (16/11/18)

M.Adhir said:


> i've actually been considering switching to this. buying a pg/vg premix with nic.
> primarily to cut down on vaping (way too many nice flavours out there).
> all with the end goal of tapering down nic dependency, and ultimately (hopefully) breaking the habit totally.



So you're going to cut out the flavour, in order to eventually cut out the nic? Why not keep and enjoy the flavour and taper down the nic? No point in punishing yourself


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## M.Adhir (16/11/18)

Hooked said:


> So you're going to cut out the flavour, in order to eventually cut out the nic? Why not keep and enjoy the flavour and taper down the nic? No point in punishing yourself



Flavour is probably the reason I vape 40 to 50ml a day.. could probably drop that in half of it wasn't that appealing and was just there to fulfil the nic craving

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## Hooked (16/11/18)

Silver said:


> I hear you @RichJB
> Hard to believe so many people are vaping unflavoured in that research
> 
> I did a review on unflavoured nic base (clean cut) from VM a while ago
> ...





Silver said:


> Have vaped unflavoured only a handful of times in the past few years, mainly to "clean" a coil/wick when not in the mood to change.



Oh what a good tip, @Silver!!

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## Jag2018 (16/11/18)

This post makes me think of all the people that I know that vape *nic free* liquids. 
They do it purely for the taste of the flavour and to make massive clouds. They have never touched a cigarette before and never will. To them, vaping has nothing to do with cigarettes. 

Some food for thought, when we vapers are always looking at the world through a smokers frame of reference.

P.S. The U.S needs to stop being a benchmark for the rest the of the world. Just my 5bob worth.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Hooked (16/11/18)

Jag2018 said:


> This post makes me think of all the people that I know that vape *nic free* liquids.
> They do it purely for the taste of the flavour and to make massive clouds. They have never touched a cigarette before and never will. To them, vaping has nothing to do with cigarettes.
> 
> Some food for thought, when we vapers are always looking at the world through a smokers frame of reference.
> ...



Do you really know many people who vape zero nic? That's interesting!

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## Alex (16/11/18)

Unflavoured juice is pretty darn good, just takes a bit of getting used to.

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## M.Adhir (16/11/18)

Hooked said:


> Do you really know many people who vape zero nic? That's interesting!



The problem comes when certain juices one come in >0mg variants. I know a few people who either never smoked, or had stopped smoking for years. Started vaping 0mg. Then due to non availability of juices they wanted in 0, they switched to 3mg. 
And a few of them are now full time 3mg vapers, who have nic cravings and get crabby when they don't vape.

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## Jag2018 (16/11/18)

Hooked said:


> Do you really know many people who vape zero nic? That's interesting!



Oh yes I do.
I have a baby sister that is 17 years younger that I am. (Laat lametjie), and her boyfriend, 22, UKzn student, and all their friends, that's about 15 or 20 kids around the same age, all vape nic free.

In fact, I mix nic free liquids for them.
Uni students, broke, free juice from friends big brother. Hahahaha, I assume that's how their conversations go.

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## Jag2018 (16/11/18)

When I quit smoking, I was vaping 18mg. 
Every three months I mix up a new batch of my daily vape. (Twisp Polar Mint and FA Mint Candy)
But every three months I lower the nic. 

I am down to 8mg MTL vaping and by June next year I should be on zero. 
But truth be told, I do not think I will stop vaping. I will still be a daily nic free vaper.

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## RichJB (16/11/18)

I can well believe people vaping 0mg juice. Simply look at the range of juices on offer from vendors and you will see that many are offered in 0mg versions. They wouldn't be doing that if there wasn't a market for it. But I've yet to browse the juice section of local vendors and see plain base & nic juices. There may be one or two but that's it. 

I vape base 70/30 mix sometimes to clear my wicks when testing, as @Silver notes. But then it doesn't have nic in it. It's not bad to vape and if your only requirement from vaping is to get nic and chuck clouds or do the whole social/mechanical routine thing of 'smoking', I guess you wouldn't really need flavour. Still, it's a bit bland. I can't see millions of kids tuning into it, which is the implication of the NYTS report.

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## Hooked (16/11/18)

Jag2018 said:


> Oh yes I do.
> I have a baby sister that is 17 years younger that I am. (Laat lametjie), and her boyfriend, 22, UKzn student, and all their friends, that's about 15 or 20 kids around the same age, all vape nic free.
> 
> In fact, I mix nic free liquids for them.
> Uni students, broke, free juice from friends big brother. Hahahaha, I assume that's how their conversations go.



Wow I think it's great that they're not using nic!

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## Puff the Magic Dragon (17/11/18)

I'm probably past my sell by date but I truly cannot see why one would start vaping if you are not trying to give up smoking.

We are fairly sure that vaping is not too bad for us, but we are still far from being able to say that it is safe. Why put yourself at risk when you are not trying an alternative solution to nic addiction ?

In all fairness I must admit that I probably started smoking in the late seventies because the cool kids were doing it. We were aware that it was bad for you but it was almost 100% socially acceptable to smoke. Nobody smoked outside, and there wasn't a designated smoking area in the entire country (aeroplanes were an exception... we all smoked at the back). 

In the early to mid eighties we all smoked in our offices at work. The polite ones amongst us would ask visitors if they minded if we smoked. I don't recall anyone ever saying that they minded.

How times have changed.

Reactions: Agree 8


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## Rooigevaar (17/11/18)

It may be that the study did not count Tobacco or Menthol as "Flavored"? 

I am not sure if I would have been able to quit using just unflavored base. The flavor is part of the experience and what makes vaping different to smoking, well for me personally anyways.

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## Raindance (17/11/18)

Could just be they can not afford flavored juices and vape what they can get off the local convenience store shelves.

In terms of dual use, many of us did when starting the vape journey and with an ever increasing number of converts in the beginning stages of the change over the stats would be scewed in that direction.

Regards

Reactions: Agree 2


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## RichJB (17/11/18)

Rooigevaar said:


> It may be that the study did not count Tobacco or Menthol as "Flavored"?



Thanks, that would make sense. I suspect that is what they mean.


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (17/11/18)

M.Adhir said:


> Flavour is probably the reason I vape 40 to 50ml a day.. could probably drop that in half of it wasn't that appealing and was just there to fulfil the nic craving


Agree. I think these amazing flavours make you vape so much that you actually getting in more nic than when you were smoking, even at 3 or 6 mg nic. Thats why I think its just a downward spiral and you will never stop the nic or revert back to smoking. I think its essensial to have a plan on decreasing nic and then stop vaping all together.
Thats now from a health prospective, from an enjoyment prospective you may do as you please

Does it really count that ypu say you stopped smoking, but you still vape nic everyday?

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## RainstormZA (17/11/18)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Agree. I think these amazing flavours make you vape so much that you actually getting in more nic than when you were smoking, even at 3 or 6 mg nic. Thats why I think its just a downward spiral and you will never stop the nic or revert back to smoking. I think its essensial to have a plan on decreasing nic and then stop vaping all together.
> Thats now from a health prospective, from an enjoyment prospective you may do as you please
> 
> Does it really count that ypu say you stopped smoking, but you still vape nic everyday?


Good question on the nic front but it still does not count as smoking as you're not longer using cigarettes.

And it's perspective, not prospective. Just saying.

Same with the movie sets using fog makers. Are they making smoke or vapour?

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## RainstormZA (17/11/18)

Raindance said:


> Could just be they can not afford flavored juices and vape what they can get off the local convenience store shelves.


You can't buy nic off the local stores. 

Agreed about the costs on flavours though. VG is easy to obtain - clicks and dischem stocks it for medicinal use but can be used for vaping. I know as I did it when I forgot to pack a bottle of juice when I went to write an exam and no local vapestores within walking distance.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (17/11/18)

RainstormZA said:


> Good question on the nic front but it still does not count as smoking as you're not longer using cigarettes.
> 
> And it's perspective, not prospective. Just saying.
> 
> Same with the movie sets using fog makers. Are they making smoke or vapour?



Maybe, but. Last weekend my father visited.. So I tell him I stopped smoking two weeks now, he looks impressed/happy. So after a few hours, a few refresments etc, he has this puzzled look on his face. Asked why I say I stopped smoking, as Im sucking on something and blowing smoke the whole day, even more than when I was smoking.
So is that stop smoking?


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## RainstormZA (17/11/18)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Maybe, but. Last weekend my father visited.. So I tell him I stopped smoking two weeks now, he looks impressed/happy. So after a few hours, a few refresments etc, he has this puzzled look on his face. Asked why I say I stopped smoking, as Im sucking on something and blowing smoke the whole day, even more than when I was smoking.
> So is that stop smoking?


Haha ! My mother is the same. I went all political on her and told that she knows it's vaping, not smoking so she needs to stop her nonsense. I really lost it with her, because I've been doing this over a year now and she carries on with it as smoking, not vaping.

Basically it might look the same to non-vapers so you have to explain it to them what the difference is. Like the day I was at the dentists, their gardener asked for a lighter. I almost laughed at the poor guy and explained it to him.

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## Hooked (17/11/18)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Agree. I think these amazing flavours make you vape so much that you actually getting in more nic than when you were smoking, even at 3 or 6 mg nic. Thats why I think its just a downward spiral and you will never stop the nic or revert back to smoking. I think its essensial to have a plan on decreasing nic and then stop vaping all together.
> Thats now from a health prospective, from an enjoyment prospective you may do as you please
> 
> Does it really count that ypu say you stopped smoking, but you still vape nic everyday?






Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Does it really count that ypu say you stopped smoking, but you still vape nic everyday?



It counts a lot!! 

These are the toxins in cigarettes - but not in e liquid.

From: www.cancer.gov

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## Silver (17/11/18)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Does it really count that ypu say you stopped smoking, but you still vape nic everyday?



I think the more correct thing to say is I stopped combustibles and now get my nic using an alternative delivery mechanism that research suggests is much less harmful than smoking.

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## Hooked (17/11/18)

Silver said:


> I think the more correct thing to say is I stopped combustibles and now get my nic using an alternative delivery mechanism that research suggests is much less harmful than smoking.



That's such a mouthful, @Silver  it's sure to stop people in their tracks!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (17/11/18)

I always go with the logic that once you have to start explaining to someone, especially with datasheets, scientific proof etc how one thing differ from another, then you lost the argument already.


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## RichJB (17/11/18)

I don't see it as an argument. Smokers are welcome to continue smoking if they want. I won't stand in their way. I am not my brother's keeper. I worry about my health, they must worry about theirs.

In terms of discussions with non-smokers, I don't see why they would view it as an argument either. They are not nicotine users and I am not trying to sell them on vaping. I'm saying that I do it, not that they should. If they want to view vaping as being worse than smoking, that is fine, I won't stand in their way. I'm not sure why it matters to them. If they are neither smoking nor vaping then surely it's irrelevant to them which of the two is the more hazardous as they are not being affected by either.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (17/11/18)

RichJB said:


> I don't see it as an argument. Smokers are welcome to continue smoking if they want. I won't stand in their way. I am not my brother's keeper. I worry about my health, they must worry about theirs.
> 
> In terms of discussions with non-smokers, I don't see why they would view it as an argument either. They are not nicotine users and I am not trying to sell them on vaping. I'm saying that I do it, not that they should. If they want to view vaping as being worse than smoking, that is fine, I won't stand in their way. I'm not sure why it matters to them. If they are neither smoking nor vaping then surely it's irrelevant to them which of the two is the more hazardous as they are not being affected by either.


 
Maybe argumentent is not the right word. Just saying at the end of the day, to most people out there it still looks like you are smoking. You are sucking and blowing smoke/vapor. And can you blame the average person out there for thinking that? If you want you can carry health department data sheet with you to convince them, but for most people ypu just smoking something a bit more healthy than a cigarette.

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## RichJB (17/11/18)

They are free to think what they want. It doesn't matter to me, either way. If someone tells me I'll get popcorn lung, my response is "Yes but why is what happens to _me_ important to _you_?"

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## Bulldog (17/11/18)

RichJB said:


> They are free to think what they want. It doesn't matter to me, either way. If someone tells me I'll get popcorn lung, my response is "Yes but why is what happens to _me_ important to _you_?"


Because we need you for DIY help @RichJB

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## Silver (17/11/18)

RichJB said:


> They are free to think what they want. It doesn't matter to me, either way. If someone tells me I'll get popcorn lung, my response is "Yes but why is what happens to _me_ important to _you_?"



They often say it because they are justifying to _themselves_ why they dont want to vape

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## RichJB (17/11/18)

If they are smokers, I can get that. People are always resistant to change and suspicious of new things. When CDs first came out, those who had LPs didn't want to change. When iPods came out, those who had CDs were resistant to change. When TV started in 1976, I remember a bunch of people saying they would never get a "gogglebox". I wonder if they still feel the same?

But I don't get why non-smokers have such strong opinions about it. What does it matter to them whether I smoke or vape? Why is my health suddenly such a huge issue to them? If they don't want to use nicotine in any form, great. I am certainly not going to try and talk them out of that.

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## Armed (17/11/18)

RichJB said:


> If they are smokers, I can get that. People are always resistant to change and suspicious of new things. When CDs first came out, those who had LPs didn't want to change. When iPods came out, those who had CDs were resistant to change. When TV started in 1976, I remember a bunch of people saying they would never get a "gogglebox". I wonder if they still feel the same?
> 
> But I don't get why non-smokers have such strong opinions about it. What does it matter to them whether I smoke or vape? Why is my health suddenly such a huge issue to them? If they don't want to use nicotine in any form, great. I am certainly not going to try and talk them out of that.


It's because of all the misinformation out there, stating that vaping is worse than smoking

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## RichJB (17/11/18)

I can understand why that makes them believe vaping is worse than smoking. What I can't understand is why they now feel that they have a stake in my health. I've heard and read that fast foods are very bad for you. Do I go and stand in McDonald's warning people that "hey, that stuff can damage your health!" What business is it of mine what people choose to eat?

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## Silver (17/11/18)

RichJB said:


> I can understand why that makes them believe vaping is worse than smoking. What I can't understand is why they now feel that they have a stake in my health. I've heard and read that fast foods are very bad for you. Do I go and stand in McDonald's warning people that "hey, that stuff can damage your health!" What business is it of mine what people choose to eat?



@RichJB , i agree with you
But sometimes i think its because that person may have a close friend or family member that smokes or vapes and they are venting their feelings on you. Still doesnt justify it but maybe explains some of it

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## Armed (17/11/18)

Fast foods , smoking all the excesses in our lives are old/stale news. The story has been told about the dangers too many times perhaps.
Vaping, being the 'new fad' is the flavour for the day for people to talk about.

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## Armed (17/11/18)

I donated blood last week. The nurses who draw your blood never heard of vaping before 
You would think that they being health professionals would know about vaping..

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## Armed (17/11/18)

We see articles after articles (good and bad) on vaping, and they haven't even heard about it

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## Room Fogger (17/11/18)

At least the 3 Neurologists I saw knew what vaping was. One tested me for a day and night of not vaping, and same while vaping. All signs virtually identical, in my instance, not saying for others it may be the same. Thereafter he even talked to me while sitting outside while I was vaping. I wasn’t going to complain.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (17/11/18)

Armed said:


> I donated blood last week. The nurses who draw your blood never heard of vaping before
> You would think that they being health professionals would know about vaping..



I read a news article today about how bad the SA womens cricket team were performing and in the comments section peop


RichJB said:


> I can understand why that makes them believe vaping is worse than smoking. What I can't understand is why they now feel that they have a stake in my health. I've heard and read that fast foods are very bad for you. Do I go and stand in McDonald's warning people that "hey, that stuff can damage your health!" What business is it of mine what people choose to eat?



Well those people you get everywhere, its part of life. Look at this forum. Cigarettes are reffered to in a derogority term "stinkies". Why?
Ever seen a guy that stopped drinking? How some of them can just bad mouth anything about alçhol? Stopped riding bike? Stopped buying(insert car of your choice)
Now look at this forum how some people have a standard list like a telesales person. My taste is back, I dont stink, I can breath my fingers/teeth are clean.
Same thing, why degrade the other ones choice?
Also same misinformed, I smoked 25years, never had yellow fingers or teeth, never had breathing problems


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## RichJB (18/11/18)

Yes, there is a tendency that those who have given something up will sometimes be the most critical/derogatory about it afterwards. It's a natural reaction, I guess. It seems to apply to most things too. The people I know who are most scathing of religion are mostly people who were once very devout.

I try to be serene about things and just take it as it comes. I will say this, though: when I go out in public with my Pico, I seem to get a lot of attention from women. If US high school kids realised this and turned their attention from the accursed JUUL to a real device like the Pico, they could kill three birds with one stone: satisfy their desire to experiment with adult substances, allay their juvenile angst about being sexually attractive, and then still get to hot-box their mom's Honda Civic for lolz. Scott Gottlieb would do well to investigate this. The poor fool doesn't even realise the power that the Pico holds over the masses.

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