# Fake international e-liquid - beware



## Vaperite South Africa (22/4/17)

There are a lot of fake international e-liquid being sold at various outlets around South Africa but mainly at China malls such as Amalgam south of Joburg.

Brands include VGod and Vape Breakfast Classics. How do you know if it is fake? Firstly, if the price for a 60ml bottle is less than half of what reputable vendors charge for the same e-liquid, then it is fake. Secondly, look at the packaging and if it has a cheap and frayed look to it then it is also an indicator.

With fake juice, not only will the flavour profile not match the real thing, but you can be guaranteed that the ingredients are of a low and questionable quality.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Thanks 3 | Informative 13


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## Havana Vape Co (13/1/18)

Disgusting

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Muttaqeen (13/1/18)

We have the exact same issue in the cape....What makes it more crappy is that people are buying in bulk and reselling to make a profit....sadly theres not much we can do about it other than educate the ones buying the juice

Reactions: Like 2


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## vicTor (13/1/18)

erm, just DIY, simple

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar (14/1/18)

I completely agree with @vicTor , never understood what makes readymade juices so expensive when the ingredients are comparatively cheap.

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## yaasir (29/6/18)

I wanted to know more on these chinese juices in the picture above.. are they harmful? coz they very cheap compared to other juices and was wondering how do they make their profit? and also because its so cheap, what are its ingredients? Too cheap can be dangerous


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## ace_d_house_cat (29/6/18)

Looks like the fake stuff that the Vape Shop at Carlswald Shopping Centre (in Midrand) stocks!


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## boxerulez (29/6/18)

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> I completely agree with @vicTor , never understood what makes readymade juices so expensive when the ingredients are comparatively cheap.


but labs and overheads and salaries and and and, although it does not justify the price in the diy'ers eyes, every business wants to make profit and grow and employ more people and clearly there is a market for eliquid... so there.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar (29/6/18)

boxerulez said:


> but labs and overheads and salaries and and and, although it does not justify the price in the diy'ers eyes, every business wants to make profit and grow and employ more people and clearly there is a market for eliquid... so there.


Agreed but the profit margin are rediculously high.
Until a competitor enters the market with real low prices, the high prices will remain high.
Something similar happened recently in the telecom industry in India. A competitor named "reliance" entered the market and slashed the prices of internet and phone calls. You won't believe that now u get unlimited calls and 20gb -4g internet for R100(500rs in Indian currency)!!!
The true costs of concentrates is only a fraction of what we actually pay. If one buys in bulk and mass produces these juices it will be a lot more cost effective.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Clouds4Days (29/6/18)

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> Agreed but the profit margin are rediculously high.
> Until a competitor enters the market with real low prices, the high prices will remain high.



There are some eliquid around that are priced really well a few that come to mind is all day Vapes, vape king brand, Racc City Vapes and Opus.

Then there are always sales happening around somewhere so if you shop around one can always find decent prices.

R150 for 60ml I don't find badly priced when you compare diy to around R2 a ml when mixed with Nic you paying around R120 for 60ml . So R30 more and I can get ready made juice in a bottle and steeped.

This is one of the reasons I gave up diy , it was costing me a bit less than buying commercial or more (first rule x5) to mix plus taking up my valuable time.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Steyn777 (29/6/18)

Clouds4Days said:


> There are some eliquid around that are priced really well a few that come to mind is all day Vapes, vape king brand, Racc City Vapes and Opus.
> 
> Then there are always sales happening around somewhere so if you shop around one can always find decent prices.
> 
> ...


Gonna have to disagree here mate, not on the pricing on certain juices but on the Diy. R26 a 30ml and that may just be over pricing it still...this of course may change depending on the flavour house you choose, but then again I normally find that the more expensive ones are also the stronger flavoured ones so shouldn't really effect it that much.
In my humble opinion, the problem with pricing has to do with the way local juice gets pushed. I am yet to stand in a Vape shop and find that when someone asks about juice, the 1st suggestion is a local juice.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## RenaldoRheeder (29/6/18)

@Steyn777 - the is some merit in supporting our local juice makers as well. That is how we will see growth and improvement. But that's just me


Sent by iDad's iPhone

Reactions: Like 2


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## Steyn777 (29/6/18)

RenaldoRheeder said:


> @Steyn777 - the is some merit in supporting our local juice makers as well. That is how we will see growth and improvement. But that's just me
> 
> 
> Sent by iDad's iPhone


Exactly my point @RenaldoRheeder

Reactions: Like 2


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## Clouds4Days (29/6/18)

Steyn777 said:


> Gonna have to disagree here mate, not on the pricing on certain juices but on the Diy. R26 a 30ml and that may just be over pricing it still...this of course may change depending on the flavour house you choose, but then again I normally find that the more expensive ones are also the stronger flavoured ones so shouldn't really effect it that much.
> In my humble opinion, the problem with pricing has to do with the way local juice gets pushed. I am yet to stand in a Vape shop and find that when someone asks about juice, the 1st suggestion is a local juice.



You do have a point, in the current diy scene prices have dropped alot too recently, but about 6 months back it was costing me around R2 a ml of juice.

I go through around 300ml of juice a month that's R1050 a month (normal priced juice and not juice on special). I was waisting much more on cigs, so I don't mind paying that.

Don't get me wrong I do like diy aswell but, to me my time is worth more than spending it making juice and the same goes with making coils.

But these are all my own personal views and options, and in no way is it the right or wrong way . There is no right or wrong in the vaping journey unless one is using a tampon or pubes as a means of wicking then that's just wrong

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Steyn777 (29/6/18)

Clouds4Days said:


> You do have a point in the current diy scene. Prices in diy have dropped alot too recently but about 6 months it was costing me around R2 a ml of juice.
> 
> I go through around 300ml of juice a month that's R1050 a month (normal prices juice and not on special) I was waisting much more on cigs so I don't mind paying that.
> 
> ...


A tampon should hold juice pretty well....mmmm....hehehe, brilliant response that mate, sitting here laughing like an idiot and can't explain to my kid why I'm laughing....

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## Hooked (29/6/18)

yaasir said:


> I wanted to know more on these chinese juices in the picture above.. are they harmful? coz they very cheap compared to other juices and was wondering how do they make their profit? and also because its so cheap, what are its ingredients? Too cheap can be dangerous



What pic are you referring to @yaasir? The one at the beginning of the thread? I don't see any Chinese juices there - all that I see are well-known brands - or fakes of well-known brands.


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## Hooked (29/6/18)

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> Agreed but the profit margin are rediculously high.
> Until a competitor enters the market with real low prices, the high prices will remain high.
> Something similar happened recently in the telecom industry in India. A competitor named "reliance" entered the market and slashed the prices of internet and phone calls. You won't believe that now u get unlimited calls and 20gb -4g internet for R100(500rs in Indian currency)!!!
> The true costs of concentrates is only a fraction of what we actually pay. If one buys in bulk and mass produces these juices it will be a lot more cost effective.



@Faiyaz Cheulkar @BLING is a competitor with mods and it looks like they could be a competitor with juice too, if their negotiations in the USA are successful. See my post here https://www.ecigssa.co.za/bling-vape-co.t48462/page-12

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Steyn777 (30/6/18)

Hooked said:


> What pic are you referring to @yaasir? The one at the beginning of the thread? I don't see any Chinese juices there - all that I see are well-known brands - or fakes of well-known brands.


This is exactly the problem @Hooked , they are faked so well that the only way to know they are fake beforehand is by checking the price. And it's spreading. In my little 1 horse town I found a shop last week selling Cuttwood juices for R59 a bottle. Thank goodness that the only Vaper in this town, makes his own liquids.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Hooked (30/6/18)

Steyn777 said:


> This is exactly the problem @Hooked , they are faked so well that the only way to know they are fake beforehand is by checking the price. And it's spreading. In my little 1 horse town I found a shop last week selling Cuttwood juices for R59 a bottle. Thank goodness that the only Vaper in this town, makes his own liquids.



And who could that be, I wonder? Seriously though, no experienced vaper would buy a well-known brand for R59 - they would know that it's a fake. However, newbies wouldn't be any the wiser !


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## Steyn777 (30/6/18)

Hooked said:


> And who could that be, I wonder? Seriously though, no experienced vaper would buy a well-known brand for R59 - they would know that it's a fake. However, newbies wouldn't be any the wiser !


I was 1 of them a few months ago. Bought Pink Lemonade at China Mall. 120ml R60. Smelled fantastic, looked like a premium juice and cheap. Dumped the whole bottle before I reached my car. Nice bottle to remix in though, still use it...so silver lining. Lol

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Hooked (30/6/18)

Steyn777 said:


> I was 1 of them a few months ago. Bought Pink Lemonade at China Mall. 120ml R60. Smelled fantastic, looked like a premium juice and cheap. Dumped the whole bottle before I reached my car. Nice bottle to remix in though, still use it...so silver lining. Lol



I bought a bottle of juice called Amaren (from a reputable shop) - never heard of the brand before. Ghastly taste, fantastic smell. So I added it to my room freshener - those big bowls that you fill with water then add a few drops of scented liquid.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ARYANTO (30/6/18)

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> Agreed but the profit margin are rediculously high.
> Until a competitor enters the market with real low prices, the high prices will remain high.
> Something similar happened recently in the telecom industry in India. A competitor named "reliance" entered the market and slashed the prices of internet and phone calls. You won't believe that now u get unlimited calls and 20gb -4g internet for R100(500rs in Indian currency)!!!
> The true costs of concentrates is only a fraction of what we actually pay. If one buys in bulk and mass produces these juices it will be a lot more cost effective.


That my dear friends is why I jumped on the DIY wagon- do my own mixes and know it's ''THE REAL THING''

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Raindance (30/6/18)

Hooked said:


> I bought a bottle of juice called Amaren (from a reputable shop) - never heard of the brand before. Ghastly taste, fantastic smell. So I added it to my room freshener - those big bowls that you fill with water then add a few drops of scented liquid.


Interesting... does it actually work? is the flavor concentration high enough?

Regards

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Raindance (30/6/18)

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> Agreed but the profit margin are rediculously high.
> Until a competitor enters the market with real low prices, the high prices will remain high.
> Something similar happened recently in the telecom industry in India. A competitor named "reliance" entered the market and slashed the prices of internet and phone calls. You won't believe that now u get unlimited calls and 20gb -4g internet for R100(500rs in Indian currency)!!!
> The true costs of concentrates is only a fraction of what we actually pay. If one buys in bulk and mass produces these juices it will be a lot more cost effective.


Not wanting to start an argument but comparing costs of DIY to that of commercially made juice is somewhat unfair. Not saying juice is not expensive but one has to compare facts.

I DIY about 600ml of juice per month. In total i spend about 8 hours per month on mixing DIY ADV's and experimenting with new mixes. I do so at home, after work. Total cost are in the form of base and concentrate liquids only.

Were I to do this for a living say 186 hours per month, I would need to add an income for myself to these costs. Seeing that I would be selling these commercially, I would need a clean room and most probably one much bigger than the space I now use, so add the cost of a lab with adequate controlled climate storage on top of that. Since this is now my only source of income, branding, marketing and distribution either by myself or an employee (or outsourced) becomes very important. Pile on the bills... 

Transport and vendor profits.... I can carry on but think the message comes across pretty well already.

So, when a "compeditor" pops up and sells me juice at half the cost of the genuine article, I wonder where did they cut their overheads to do so. No clean room? Child labor? Ingredients stored in a shed? Do they even clean their equipment and bottles? Those savings can not be achieved by stealing branding from an existing product alone.

Cheap juice... Aikona!

Regards

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Steyn777 (30/6/18)

Hooked said:


> I bought a bottle of juice called Amaren (from a reputable shop) - never heard of the brand before. Ghastly taste, fantastic smell. So I added it to my room freshener - those big bowls that you fill with water then add a few drops of scented liquid.


@Hooked this must be the weirdest yet so clever thing I've ever heard someone do with a bad tasting juice.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar (30/6/18)

Raindance said:


> Not wanting to start an argument but comparing costs of DIY to that of commercially made juice is somewhat unfair. Not saying juice is not expensive but one has to compare facts.
> 
> I DIY about 600ml of juice per month. In total i spend about 8 hours per month on mixing DIY ADV's and experimenting with new mixes. I do so at home, after work. Total cost are in the form of base and concentrate liquids only.
> 
> ...


You are right, and that's why mass production is the answer. Once u have invested time to create a mix you put that into mass production, assembly lines, automated mixers which can produce tankers of eliquid with the same quality. Plus when u buy the raw materials in bulk u get it at a lower cost.
But the equipment won't come cheap and some businessman should be ready to make an investment.

An example it takes around 12 to 16 hours to build a Toyota as it's mass produced, but 6 months to build a rolls Royce because it's mostly made by hand.


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## Raindance (30/6/18)

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> You are right, and that's why mass production is the answer. Once u have invested time to create a mix you put that into mass production, assembly lines, automated mixers which can produce tankers of eliquid with the same quality. Plus when u buy the raw materials in bulk u get it at a lower cost.
> But the equipment won't come cheap and some businessman should be ready to make an investment.


Agreed, but I think the problem with variety comes into play here. Demand for specific liquids is not of sufficient volume to justify the investment required. At low volumes "manual" production is cheaper than mass production as ROT on equipment requires significant volumes and utilizing equipment 24/7.

Regards

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Steyn777 (30/6/18)

Raindance said:


> Not wanting to start an argument but comparing costs of DIY to that of commercially made juice is somewhat unfair. Not saying juice is not expensive but one has to compare facts.
> 
> I DIY about 600ml of juice per month. In total i spend about 8 hours per month on mixing DIY ADV's and experimenting with new mixes. I do so at home, after work. Total cost are in the form of base and concentrate liquids only.
> 
> ...


If I decide tomorrow that I want to sell knitted sweaters for a living, will it be fair to sell 1 of my sweaters for R3500 a piece? I can only knit 4 to 5 sweaters a month, but I need to make a living out of this...when I do buy juice I don't want to feel like I'm lay buying someones clean room.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Raindance (30/6/18)

Steyn777 said:


> If I decide tomorrow that I want to sell knitted sweaters for a living, will it be fair to sell 1 of my sweaters for R3500 a piece? I can only knit 4 to 5 sweaters a month, but I need to make a living out of this...when I do buy juice I don't want to feel like I'm lay buying someones clean room.


@Steyn777, you just explained the HE market. If you have a willing buyer, go for it! LOL.

Value of any service or product is determined by what people are willing to pay for it. Balancing demand with availability by means of pricing is what success is based on. How else do you explain that a mod made from the same material as the box my R500.00 mod came in sells for R3500.00? Consumer perception of value. Manage that and you can sell molten ice to flood victims.

Regards


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar (30/6/18)

Raindance said:


> Agreed, but I think the problem with variety comes into play here. Demand for specific liquids is not of sufficient volume to justify the investment required. At low volumes "manual" production is cheaper than mass production as ROT on equipment requires significant volumes and utilizing equipment 24/7.
> 
> Regards


Yep that's the sad part. The demand doesn't justify mass production right now, but really hope someone with a huge wallet see's some sort of potential in this business and decides to invest.


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## Steyn777 (30/6/18)

Raindance said:


> @Steyn777, you just explained the HE market. If you have a willing buyer, go for it! LOL.
> 
> Value of any service or product is determined by what people are willing to pay for it. Balancing demand with availability by means of pricing is what success is based on. How else do you explain that a mod made from the same material as the box my R500.00 mod came in sells for R3500.00? Consumer perception of value. Manage that and you can sell molten ice to flood victims.
> 
> Regards


The demand is created because of a lack of choice. I hated paying Telkom rates in the days of landlines but I needed a phone. Raymond Ackerman started a business model that gave people a choice in what they actually WANT and it kinda worked for him. My point is our local guys charge what they charge because turnover is not the main focus. In certain industries the entire industry (local) would be accused of price fixing.

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## yaasir (30/6/18)

Hooked said:


> What pic are you referring to @yaasir? The one at the beginning of the thread? I don't see any Chinese juices there - all that I see are well-known brands - or fakes of well-known brands.


Its just that I see them all in the China towns. and the Chinese can replicate nearly everything for half the price

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Steyn777 (30/6/18)

Faiyaz Cheulkar said:


> Yep that's the sad part. The demand doesn't justify mass production right now, but really hope someone with a huge wallet see's some sort of potential in this business and decides to invest.


What's your preferred flavour profile? I


yaasir said:


> Its just that I see them all in the China towns. and the Chinese can replicate nearly everything for half the price


Oh no no no...these are by no means replications.


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## Humbolt (30/6/18)

Raindance said:


> Not wanting to start an argument but comparing costs of DIY to that of commercially made juice is somewhat unfair. Not saying juice is not expensive but one has to compare facts.
> 
> I DIY about 600ml of juice per month. In total i spend about 8 hours per month on mixing DIY ADV's and experimenting with new mixes. I do so at home, after work. Total cost are in the form of base and concentrate liquids only.
> 
> ...


whilst I do agree that overheads such as clean rooms, lab equipment, etc should be factored into the price of juice, how many of our local juice manufacturers actually blend their juices in these clean rooms or labs? If they do, the price is justified. But I'd hazard a guess that most of them don't, yet their prices are all more or less the same. To me it's as if these relatively newcomers on the ejuice scene are all out to make a quick buck. Whilst I also agree that we should support local, I don't like to spend my hard earned cash when I feel as if I'm being fleeced.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar (30/6/18)

Steyn777 said:


> What's your preferred flavour profile? I
> 
> Oh no no no...these are by no means replications.


Fruity and cheap

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Hooked (30/6/18)

Steyn777 said:


> @Hooked this must be the weirdest yet so clever thing I've ever heard someone do with a bad tasting juice.



@Steyn777 My bedroom smells heavenly!

Reactions: Winner 1


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