# The ongoing media war on E-cigs and Vaping industry



## WBotha (18/9/19)

Good day fellow vapers .

The whole vape industry has been in a bad light this past 2 months , with increase articles and daily news showing the extreme negatives of vaping . First that come mind is the recent reported deaths and reported hospitalised victims of vaping . This is bad and very tragic , I kept a close eye on the news related important cases .

Few things dont add up for me . Every article or story has a few similarities .

Vaping on a pod system
THC pods
Victims are very young 
Victims only vaped never smoked cigs
Very high dosages of nicc and THC products
Black market products
Im not saying these similarities above is the reason but I do believe that black market products do have a major role to play . There are countless people using pods and im looking at buying one myself . 

Nobody should be in hospital or dead due to something 95% cleaner and healtier than cigs . So few things definitely dont add up here .
I did some light research and saw a vid on youtube with the same thoughts as mine . Dash vapes on youtube

There is hope .
I believe that there is a light at the end of this dark and long tunnel but we as the vape community has a big part to play in spreading the correct info on vaping . This war wil not be over or forgotten without a fight .

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 6


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## vicTor (18/9/19)

I'm with you man

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 2


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## Silver (18/9/19)

Agreed @WBotha

It seems the recent cases of death point toward THC infused cartridges with Vitamin E oil inside - and when the oil is vaped it causes a bad reaction in your lungs - that's the way I understand it. 

I have vaped for nearly 6 years and have not had any bad reaction whatsoever - other than a "Silver" I had in the early days which is a fairly well documented nicotine overdose - but miles from being a hospital case.

I have vaped many international liquids and lots of locally manufactured liquids. Only normal nicotine liquids though. No problems on my side whatsoever. I feel better than I did when smoking, my heart rate while exercising is about 10 bpm lower than when I smoked - and I get FAR fewer headaches since stopping smoking and switching to vaping. No more wheezing and I can breathe in deeper. Vaping has been very positive for me healthwise - at least from what I can observe.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 3 | Can relate 2


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## WBotha (18/9/19)

Yes I can also testify @Silver 

We had our annual medical checkups at work ,my blood pressure is down ( almost to low ) , my lung capacity increased .
My sense of smell and taste have drastically increased and less sinus and flu problems . 
There are more than millions of people that vape even before vaping became mainstream as it is today and no serious cases were heard of . its just funny that the media is busy blowing everything out of perspective . I just wish that the postive side of vaping as we experienced can be explored more by the media and public . 
But sad to say that the media will always be about sensation .

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## soofee (19/9/19)



Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## ARYANTO (20/9/19)



Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1


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## ARYANTO (20/9/19)

WBotha said:


> Yes I can also testify @Silver
> 
> We had our annual medical checkups at work ,my blood pressure is down ( almost to low ) , my lung capacity increased .
> My sense of smell and taste have drastically increased and less sinus and flu problems .
> ...


I think that we , as vapers need to step up and do more , be more aggressive and defend our hobby/lifestyle , we all sit and grumble in the forum , we
need to be more active and MAKE OUR PRESENCE KNOWN. Stuff the media , it's them spreading false info , we need to attack on social media and make out voices heard.India's govt just ''killed'' their whole vaping industry with a signature... are we next?

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Room Fogger (20/9/19)

Vapers unite!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 5


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## Resistance (21/9/19)

I had this same rediculous conversation trying to convince someone to look at the big picture...at the end of the day he turned around explaining to me what I just said in his own words.
what this forum and members need to do is have a few pro vaping campaigns.
or maybe just fog a highway or something.maybe some airtime on a radio station .
this dude even told me that theres a warning on the boxes so it must be harmfull,pointing towards the nicotine warnings on the box of my vape wire and I think we need to set this straight aswell. Hardware do not contain anything till we fill it, and this makes me feel that were telling the negative forces that they are right.
Your smoking a battery I tell you!....sad.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## ARYANTO (21/9/19)

I do not believe this , a tappet {friend of a fried scenario}on FB , who NEVER smoked or vaped want to start an anti vape campaign on FB .
{speaking under correction , I think there is a few 100 already }
May I gently put my hands over his throat and very suddenly increase pressure , this whole fkn story is pushing my BP dangerously up .

Reactions: Like 2 | Can relate 2


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## Room Fogger (21/9/19)

ARYANTO said:


> I do not believe this , a tappet {friend of a fried scenario}on FB , who NEVER smoked or vaped want to start an anti vape campaign on FB .
> {speaking under correction , I think there is a few 100 already }
> May I gently put my hands over his throat and very suddenly increase pressure , this whole fkn story is pushing my BP dangerously up .


Full neck massage with both hands, sometimes feel like doing that to some village idiots myself. Tell him your going to start a anti whatever he likes campaign, even if it’s to ban sugar and see the reaction.

I sometimes wish that people will realize that if you know nothing about something stay out of it until you do your homework. I don’t tell a mechanic what to do to fix my car, but will ask questions to see if it makes sense, ditto my doctor, unless he gives something that hasn’t worked or agreed with me before. 

If I don’t know something I ask, or research it. Then I can give an informed opinion or advice on the matter instead of being an arrogant prick, which I sometimes am, especially towards debt collectors that don’t update their systems so I now bill them for my time having to answer the phone because they are looking for 400 people with the same number, or cold callers trying to sell me a cell contract, you just phoned me on my cell you twat.

Same with vaping, I vape, not you. Keep your nose there and I will re-adjust it and tell you to mind your own, in a nice way of course.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Resistance (21/9/19)

We should do a lets ban the ban vaping campaign.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Adephi (21/9/19)

ARYANTO said:


> I do not believe this , a tappet {friend of a fried scenario}on FB , who NEVER smoked or vaped want to start an anti vape campaign on FB .
> {speaking under correction , I think there is a few 100 already }
> May I gently put my hands over his throat and very suddenly increase pressure , this whole fkn story is pushing my BP dangerously up .



As the legendary Tolla van der Merwe use to say:" Ek wil hom net liggies om die nek vashou en vir hom lag terwyl hy homself dood spartel".

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Funny 1


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## Resistance (23/9/19)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...19-year-olds-lungs-filled-solidified-oil.html

Another article...???
Next is people vaping Q20 or 20w50

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Faiyaz Cheulkar (23/9/19)

I was watching this movie "Mama" yesterday, there is a scene where one teenager pushes a vape to another teenager saying "you can do it all you want and then quit when you are 25, it doesn't do any damage or anything". I honestly don't know what I felt at that moment- rage, sorry, confused? don't know but its things like this that make people hate vaping more and more.

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## Kuhlkatz (24/9/19)

Resistance said:


> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...19-year-olds-lungs-filled-solidified-oil.html
> 
> Another article...???
> Next is people vaping Q20 or 20w50



Key 'one-liner' in this article is the same common denominator as in all the other dramas and deaths:


> Anthony also vaped THC on occasions, which is the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana.



They should skip all the bad-mouthing and other BS related to vaping and how bad it is and perhaps just take a moment, sit down, shut up and gather their scrambled thoughts, and then focus on the ACTUAL issue here. Instead of rallying everyone to write articles and have press conferences to spread disinformation, they should be using all the resources to track down the suppliers and manufacturers of the carts causing all the kak.

Just my 2c.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## SparkySA (24/9/19)

Check it out

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## SparkySA (24/9/19)



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## WBotha (24/9/19)

Yes I Also belive we must let our voices be heard and obviously try to get the truth of vaping more in the public attention . I would like to see what the actual report and conclusion and findings are for the case in Canada . Seems like the fight is not over in USA . Trump is making statements just please the people it would seem .

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## SparkySA (24/9/19)

WBotha said:


> Yes I Also belive we must let our voices be heard and obviously try to get the truth of vaping more in the public attention . I would like to see what the actual report and conclusion and findings are for the case in Canada . Seems like the fight is not over in USA . Trump is making statements just please the people it would seem .


Isn't there a petition site or something we can do?

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## SparkySA (24/9/19)

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/vaping-e-cigarettes-suspected-fifth-death-hundreds-lung-injuries

The truth about these deaths please share on Facebook and social media platforms

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## SparkySA (24/9/19)

Okey let's say for instance the 8 deaths this year is real and I'm saying a huge IF 

LOOK AT THESE STATS ABOUT Cigarettes

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/index.htm

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## Silver (24/9/19)

SparkySA said:


> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/vaping-e-cigarettes-suspected-fifth-death-hundreds-lung-injuries
> 
> The truth about these deaths please share on Facebook and social media platforms



Hi @SparkySA , thanks for posting that
I went through it

The part that is strange is that not all the young folk hospitalized were vaping THC with Vitamin E acetate. Some said they weren’t vaping THC. Which then begs the question, what were they vaping?

The scientist also concludes that even if we aren’t vaping THC with Vitamin E acetate we aren’t necessarily safe.

We have known for a long time that there are question marks to the health impacts of inhaling food grade flavorings. They are safe to eat. But as the scientist in this article points out their toxicity can change depending on the method of absorption. (As is clearly the case with vitamin E acetate oils)

I have vaped loads of different normal liquids over nearly 6 years. No THC , no CBD, just normal vaping nicotine liquids and I have never had a problem. Time will tell if there are longer term effects. But my lungs seem to be working far better than when i smoked.

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## SparkySA (24/9/19)

Yeah I know no one ever said vaping was 100% safer than smoking it's only 95% safer....

Now let me ask you this 

If you knew you had 95% better chance at the lotto would you play?

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## Silver (24/9/19)

SparkySA said:


> Yeah I know no one ever said vaping was 100% safer than smoking it's only 95% safer....
> 
> Now let me ask you this
> 
> If you knew you had 95% better chance at the lotto would you play?



Sure I would!

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## Adephi (24/9/19)

Silver said:


> The part that is strange is that not all the young folk hospitalized were vaping THC with Vitamin E acetate. Some said they weren’t vaping THC. Which then begs the question, what were they vaping?



I believe a lot of them didn't want to admit that they were using THC. So the easy way out will be to blame nicotine vape products.

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## SparkySA (24/9/19)

The biggest question is.... If 1300 Americans die per day of cigarette related deaths how is 8 vape related deaths in a year with THC as focus point?

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## Hooked (24/9/19)

*Public Health Expert Worries that E-cigarette Panic is ruining the single biggest public health opportunity in 120 years.*
SEPT 20, 2019

"Public healthublic Health England describes e-cigarettes as "at least 95% less harmful than tobacco cigarettes" – a claim New York University professor David Abrams agrees with. Abrams tells "CBS This Morning" Tony Dokoupil why he's concerned about what the current panic about e-cigarette safety could mean for public health."

I'm unable to copy the link, so watch the interview here:

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## Hooked (24/9/19)

https://www.ivva.ie/latest-news/iri...all-on-consultant-to-withdraw-misinformation/
23 Sept. 2019

"It was with some shock that Irish Vape Vendors Association [IVVA] learned of an outlandish article in Irish Sunday Mirror yesterday, Sept 23. Prof Sherif Sultan from Galway Clinic called for a ban on vaping and warned: “It’s more dangerous than smoking and booze combined”. Speaking this morning, Declan Connolly, director of IVVA, said that “this statement from Prof Sherif Sultan is blatantly untrue, and these ill-informed comments should be withdrawn immediately. There has been ever growing negative hysteria about vaping in recent weeks, and articles such as the one published in yesterday’s Irish Sunday Mirror will persuade current vapers to go back smoking, and have the added effect of discouraging current smokers from switching to vaping which is at least 95% safer than smoking, according to Public Health England and backed up by the Royal College of Physicians and Cancer Research UK.”

Unfortunately, the article in Irish Sunday Mirror, didn’t stop there, and readers were also informed about another lady whose “lung consultant told her he would prefer to see her “smoke a cigarette rather than vape””.
If the message being promoted by these cardio & lung consultants, and the Irish Sunday Mirror, is to go back smoking, then there is something very seriously wrong. Smoking will prematurely kill 50% of those who smoke.

The Irish Vape Vendors Association also call on Simon Harris & Department of Health to issue a statement. The 200,000 people who vape in Ireland, and those smokers currently considering switching, need to be informed with evidence based data and recommendations.

On Thursday, the Centre for Disease Control & Protection (CDC) in US posted their latest recommendations on vaping, and state “If you are an adult who used e-cigarettes containing nicotine to quit cigarette smoking, do not return to smoking cigarettes.”

Writing in British Medical Journal on Saturday, Prof John Britton (Director of the UK Centre for Tobacco and Alcohol Studies, University of Nottingham) states “The effects of nicotine on the human body are broadly similar to those of caffeine, indicating that long term use probably represents a health risk similar to that of coffee consumption. Since the harms of smoking arise not from nicotine, but from the many other toxins in tobacco smoke, it follows that providing smokers with nicotine in a smoke free formulation should enable smokers to quit smoking more easily, by removing the need to overcome addiction to nicotine. Unlike conventional nicotine replacement therapies, electronic cigarettes achieve exactly this by delivering nicotine in a vapour that, while not harmless, is substantially less toxic than smoke.”

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## Hooked (24/9/19)

*If you live in San Francisco, you can't even have vaping products delivered.*

*https://nypost.com/2019/09/20/the-utterly-political-war-on-vaping/*
20 Sept. 2019

[...]

"... not too long ago the San Francisco Board of Supervisors banned the sale of vaping products at retail outlets and — seemingly more persnickety about this than, say, the use of heroin or public defecation — prohibited their delivery to addresses in the city."

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## Grand Guru (24/9/19)

If there were serious hazards carried by food flavourings wouldn’t we have known by now? I mean any objective mind wouldn’t help but look for the common point in all these SUDDEN lung diseases associated with vaping. Otherwise we would’ve heard about a certain number of other random cases here and there. We’re not talking about long term effects here but acute complications. It can either be related to the cotton, the wire, the juice or the metal alloy of which the dripper/RTA are made. Some serious scientific research will identify the culprit. This time around it was a funky juice, next time it will be the coils etc.

The real problem is whatever is circulating on the black market is out of everybody’s control and people motivated by money wouldn’t give a damn about public health, vape ban nor anything else. The same thing applies to illegal cigarettes, fake medicines (and God knows how many there are in circulation especially in our corrupt continent).

This is where consumers as much as legislators should take a stand but I know it’s easier said than done.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Hooked (24/9/19)

*GOP allies warn vaping ban will sink Trump in 2020*
https://www.axios.com/gop-allies-wa...020-16f766a4-7bcc-435f-9638-a80223df55ed.html

"Conservative leaders are circulating data to White House staff that claims adults who vape will turn on President Trump if he follows through with his planned ban on flavored e-cigarettes, Axios has learned. 

Between the lines: The data (shown below) reveals that the number of adult vapers in key battleground states greatly outweighs the margins by which Trump won those states in 2016 — and they argue it could cost him reelection.

What we're hearing: "While parents may be concerned about e-cigarettes, the people who genuinely care about vaping as a voting issue so far outweighs the number of people Trump needs to win in 2020 that they are royally screwing themselves by doing this," Paul Blair, the director of strategic initiatives at Americans for Tax Reform, tells me.

Suburban moms concerned about vaping "don't have the same voter intensity on this as adult vapers do," an industry lobbyist said.
Florida, which Trump won by 113,000 voters, had about 873,000 adult vapers in 2016. They reason that if 1 in 8 vapers turn against Trump in 2020 because he foreclosed their vaping options, it could jeopardize the election.
Why it matters: If Trump backs away from proposed enforcement policy, it would be the second time in recent weeks that political concerns prompted him to dial back government regulations.

Trump's openness this summer to expanded background checks cooled after the gun lobby and campaign advisers warned about bad internal polling.

Our thought bubble: There are four unsubstantiated assumptions about adult vapers in the case being presented to Trump:

They start out as Trump voters.
They wouldn't vape anymore if they couldn't get the flavors.
They are single-issue voters around vaping rights.
The eventual Democratic nominee would be more vape-friendly.
Still, the math can't be totally ignored, especially in places like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin where Trump's 2016 win margins were so narrow and the number of adult vapers is relatively high.

By the numbers: More than 4 million people in swing states regularly used e-cigarettes in 2016, according to FDA-funded survey data published last year in the Annals of Internal Medicine.

Industry experts say that number has increased significantly in recent years.

[I'm unable to save the image, so see here for a comparison of adult vapers and 2016 presidential election win margins in battleground states.  ]

Behind the scenes: The White House scheduled a listening session with conservative groups last Thursday after receiving intense backlash from GOP leaders and industry execs following the announcement of the ban.

Among the invitees: The Competitive Enterprise Institute, the Goldwater Institute, AFT and the Vapor Technology Association.
But roughly 24 hours after invitations went out, the meeting was canceled.
"They’re in chaos mode on this stuff because the backlash has been so resoundingly overpowering," one invitee said.
A White House official says the meeting is expected to be rescheduled.
The bottom line: The political pressure points regarding the ban have gotten Trump's attention.

Shortly after the proposed ban was announced, Trump tweeted that he still likes vaping as an alternative to cigarettes.
Trump's 2020 campaign manager Brad Parscale also hit back at a Trump follower who tweeted that banning vaping products is "not on brand with MAGA."
One administration official said the tweets were prompted by a flood of criticism from conservative leaders.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Silver (24/9/19)

Hooked said:


> *Public Health Expert Worries that E-cigarette Panic is ruining the single biggest public health opportunity in 120 years.*
> SEPT 20, 2019
> 
> "Public healthublic Health England describes e-cigarettes as "at least 95% less harmful than tobacco cigarettes" – a claim New York University professor David Abrams agrees with. Abrams tells "CBS This Morning" Tony Dokoupil why he's concerned about what the current panic about e-cigarette safety could mean for public health."
> ...



This is great @Hooked
Just watched it now
This New York professor David Abrams explained it all very well and you can see he knows his topic very well.

He basically says that e-cigarettes should continue to be used and they offer the greatest opportunity we have had in over a century to reduce smoking significantly.

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## Hooked (24/9/19)

Silver said:


> This is great @Hooked
> Just watched it now
> This New York professor David Abrams explained it all very well and you can see he knows his topic very well.
> 
> He basically says that e-cigarettes should continue to be used and they offer the greatest opportunity we have had in over a century to reduce smoking significantly.



@Silver What I like is that he speaks so calmly and I think that is what we must remember too. It's so easy to become excited when we're criticised by misinformed people, but a calm, measured voice is the best.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Silver (24/9/19)

Hooked said:


> @Silver What I like is that he speaks so calmly and I think that is what we must remember too. It's so easy to become excited when we're criticised by misinformed people, but a calm, measured voice is the best.



Agreed - always better to be calm and collected

By the way, I couldn’t place his accent. At one point I thought he may have been an ex-South African. Then I heard a bit of the Australian accent.

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## Hooked (24/9/19)

SparkySA said:


> Check it out




@SparkySA thanks for posting this - most informative. It's all about the money, 'bout the money, 'bout the money ... 
Disgusting! And Big Pharma no doubt plays a huge part too. It's not in their interests to have healthier people, is it?

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## Hooked (24/9/19)

SparkySA said:


> Isn't there a petition site or something we can do?



@SparkySA There is a petition and the required number of signatures has been reached. They needed 100,000 signatures by 11 Oct and as of this moment (I've just copied this from the site) 141,614 people have signed.  

I don't know if one can still sign, but go to this site and try. I can't because I've already signed.

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## Hooked (24/9/19)

SparkySA said:


> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/vaping-e-cigarettes-suspected-fifth-death-hundreds-lung-injuries
> 
> The truth about these deaths please share on Facebook and social media platforms



"450 possible cases of these lung injuries reported in 33 states and one U.S. territory. That’s more than double the 215 cases reported a week ago."

I must say that is indeed alarming, whatever the cause. According to what we know, Vitamin E acetate was added to blackmarket "alternative" products. The question is, did the makers of the products know what the consequences would be? I doubt it, unless they're all psychopaths. Just put yourself in their shoes now. If they truly didn't know, what are they feeling now?? It must be awful for them. And once the source(s) is discovered, they will be charged with murder.

Then there's another more sinister possibility. Could an industry with a vested interest in cigarettes have *deliberately* done this, so as to put a very dark cloud over vaping? I am not accusing anyone ... I'm just wondering, is it possible?

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## Silver (24/9/19)

Hooked said:


> "450 possible cases of these lung injuries reported in 33 states and one U.S. territory. That’s more than double the 215 cases reported a week ago."
> 
> I must say that is indeed alarming, whatever the cause. According to what we know, Vitamin E acetate was added to blackmarket "alternative" products. The question is, did the makers of the products know what the consequences would be? I doubt it, unless they're all psychopaths. Just put yourself in their shoes now. If they truly didn't know, what are they feeling now?? It must be awful for them. And once the source(s) is discovered, they will be charged with murder.
> 
> Then there's another more sinister possibility. Could an industry with a vested interest in cigarettes have *deliberately* done this, so as to put a very dark cloud over vaping? I am not accusing anyone ... I'm just wondering, is it possible?



Anything is possible @Hooked 

We don’t even know the exact causes since the info released is not very conclusive yet

But it does sound very strange that suddenly so many people are hospitalized while normal vaping has been around for many years

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Hooked (24/9/19)

Silver said:


> Agreed - always better to be calm and collected
> 
> By the way, I couldn’t place his accent. At one point I thought he may have been an ex-South African. Then I heard a bit of the Australian accent.



@Silver I was also trying to place his accent, but couldn't.

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## Hooked (24/9/19)

There are questions milling about in my mind. 

*What is happening to all the vape shop owners* in the states where vaping or flavours have already been banned, and what is going to happen to all the vape shops throughout the USA if the flavour ban comes into effect?

Just imagine. You have a vape shop which is your livelihood. It supports your family. Now all that you're left with is tobacco-flavoured juice and mods. What about all the juice which you've already purchased from your suppliers. Will they take it back and refund your money? Hardly likely! So what are you going to do with it? Give your customers your home address so that they can visit you for "afternoon tea and scones"?

I dare say the fines for selling vape juice, if the ban comes into effect, will be hefty. Would they take a chance anyway? I doubt it. You never know who it is who walks into your shop. Could be an undercover agent, since this is now a serious crime - far worse than alcohol and guns, that's for sure.

*What is happening with the juice manufacturers?*
This is going to affect them too. How much of their production is plain tobacco flavours? At a wild guess let me say 10%. That means that they will lose 90% of their production. There is no business that can stay afloat if they lose 90% of their production.

*Will the juice manufacturers perhaps be allowed to continue making flavoured juice, but for export only?* Perhaps ...
After all, in China there are two production types. Products for the local market and products for export only. This is not because of any bans etc. It's just that there are some things which we use but the Chinese don't e.g. nutcrackers, nailbrushes. Or sometimes the products are used in China as well, but the quality of those for export is superior to the local products, so I've been told.

There is no doubt that this is going to have serious financial repercussions and I feel for everyone involved.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Adephi (24/9/19)

Hooked said:


> There are questions milling about in my mind.
> 
> *What is happening to all the vape shop owners* in the states where vaping or flavours have already been banned, and what is going to happen to all the vape shops throughout the USA if the flavour ban comes into effect?
> 
> ...



Here's a video Mike Vapes had with a shop owner in New York. Will answer some questions. Also a really interesting conversation.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Silver (24/9/19)

Adephi said:


> Here's a video Mike Vapes had with a shop owner in New York. Will answer some questions. Also a really interesting conversation.




Thanks @Adephi
Interesting interview and gives a good context of what it’s like for a vape shop owner

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hooked (24/9/19)

Adephi said:


> Here's a video Mike Vapes had with a shop owner in New York. Will answer some questions. Also a really interesting conversation.




Very interesting, thanks @Adephi!!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Resistance (24/9/19)

Agree.
2cents counted.


Kuhlkatz said:


> Key 'one-liner' in this article is the same common denominator as in all the other dramas and deaths:
> 
> 
> They should skip all the bad-mouthing and other BS related to vaping and how bad it is and perhaps just take a moment, sit down, shut up and gather their scrambled thoughts, and then focus on the ACTUAL issue here. Instead of rallying everyone to write articles and have press conferences to spread disinformation, they should be using all the resources to track down the suppliers and manufacturers of the carts causing all the kak.
> ...

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## Resistance (24/9/19)

Most probably due to them excepting the stats of smokers.people tend to find things to be normal when its expected.and now all of a sudden after everyone said vaping is safe...people die.
they forget to mention the k@k their vaping



SparkySA said:


> The biggest question is.... If 1300 Americans die per day of cigarette related deaths how is 8 vape related deaths in a year with THC as focus point?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RichJB (25/9/19)

Grand Guru said:


> If there were serious hazards carried by food flavourings wouldn’t we have known by now?



Yes. This problem is only happening in North America (one case we know of in Canada) and is affecting many vapers who only started vaping recently. These two facts together tell us:

It's not any of the regular ingredients (nic, PG, VG, flavours) in juice because juice is made the same all around the world. There is no reason why an ingredient in regular juice would only affect NA vapers. Unless it's something localised like a contaminated batch of VG that was distributed in the US.

It's not a time-based thing. If we suddenly had a bunch of vapers who had all been vaping for ten years or more falling ill, that would suggest that testing had perhaps missed a toxic ingredient that takes a long time to build up in the body. But some of these vapers have only been doing it for a few months, so it's not that.
Clearly, there is some juice ingredient which is only used in NA and which hasn't been used widely before, which is causing the problem. The other possibility, as I stated, is that it's some common ingredient but which had a contaminated batch distributed to NA juice manufacturers.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## RichJB (25/9/19)

SparkySA said:


> The biggest question is.... If 1300 Americans die per day of cigarette related deaths how is 8 vape related deaths in a year with THC as focus point?



Because it's a new development. The risks from smoking are known so it's not shocking when people continue to die from it.

Let me illustrate with an analogy. Your next door neighbour switches on his DSTV decoder and it explodes, killing him instantly. You phone DSTV to find out what's up and they tell you "Ja boet but twenty okes died in road accidents today, now you're worried about one oke dying from his decoder? Why aren't you phoning Toyota and complaining to them about the twenty deaths?" It's because we know people die on the roads, it's not shocking to us. But we shouldn't be dying from our decoder.

Some of the people who have died or got really ill have only been vaping for a few months. They shouldn't be dying from it.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Hooked (25/9/19)

RichJB said:


> Yes. This problem is only happening in North America (one case we know of in Canada) and is affecting many vapers who only started vaping recently. These two facts together tell us:
> 
> It's not any of the regular ingredients (nic, PG, VG, flavours) in juice because juice is made the same all around the world. There is no reason why an ingredient in regular juice would only affect NA vapers. Unless it's something localised like a contaminated batch of VG that was distributed in the US.
> 
> ...



@RichJB They were not vaping e-liquid. They were vaping TeeHCee so your argument is a non sequitar.


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## Jengz (25/9/19)

All this balony is affecting supper talk at home! Everyone is on my case about how vaping is being banned all over the world so it must be so bad for me.

It's driving me crazy.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Can relate 1


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## SmokeyJoe (25/9/19)

Im actually at a point now where the love of vaping has diminished as a result of the continued harassment. Im actually thinking about quitting. im sick and tired of explaining to every tom **** and harry
Even my older brother stopped vaping and went back to smokes just because of the false information distributed by the media and the US

Reactions: Agree 2


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## RichJB (25/9/19)

Hooked said:


> @RichJB They were not vaping e-liquid. They were vaping TeeHCee so your argument is a non sequitar.



Earlier in the thread, @Silver informed that some of the victims are saying they weren't vaping THC. I presume that is what sparked the question I responded to - that it surely couldn't be flavours.

This from the Guardian:



> State and federal public health officials have yet to identify the specific element making people sick. But the California department of public health reports that almost all people with lung damage from vaping say that they vaped or “dabbed” the cannabis products THC and CBD in cartridges, waxes, oils, and other forms, while some people report vaping only nicotine.



My inclination is to believe that those saying they weren't vaping THC are simply trying to hide the fact from the parents or families. There is still a stigma attached to marijuana in many places so there would be motive for people to deny using it. But if they are telling the truth then the case becomes even more mystifying.



SmokeyJoe said:


> Im actually at a point now where the love of vaping has diminished as a result of the continued harassment. Im actually thinking about quitting. im sick and tired of explaining to every tom **** and harry



Look on the bright side. At least you no longer have to put up with strangers coming up to you and wanting to try out your vape.

Reactions: Like 5


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## SparkySA (25/9/19)

RichJB said:


> Because it's a new development. The risks from smoking are known so it's not shocking when people continue to die from it.
> 
> Let me illustrate with an analogy. Your next door neighbour switches on his DSTV decoder and it explodes, killing him instantly. You phone DSTV to find out what's up and they tell you "Ja boet but twenty okes died in road accidents today, now you're worried about one oke dying from his decoder? Why aren't you phoning Toyota and complaining to them about the twenty deaths?" It's because we know people die on the roads, it's not shocking to us. But we shouldn't be dying from our decoder.
> 
> Some of the people who have died or got really ill have only been vaping for a few months. They shouldn't be dying from it.


Any store bought stuff from a reputable vendor will not kill anyone 

If you throw brake fluid in your cereal and eat it then you will get sick 

That is what's happining now, you get drug dealers selling pods and cartridges to get kids high and adding all kinds of shit to thin the oils the drug market is trying to use VAPE DEVICES as a method to consume all kinds of drugs discreetly and that is hurting our industry

Vaping on its own is a cool and evolving industry, now you add the alure of a concentrated high to it.... And that is where all this shit is happening

Think about it this way... There is nothing sexy about a meth head using a meth pipe to do his drugs or a pothead building a joint on a bench in a park where kids play.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SparkySA (25/9/19)

SmokeyJoe said:


> Im actually at a point now where the love of vaping has diminished as a result of the continued harassment. Im actually thinking about quitting. im sick and tired of explaining to every tom **** and harry
> Even my older brother stopped vaping and went back to smokes just because of the false information distributed by the media and the US


Did you see the Steve Hofmeyr DSTV debackle 

Just ask those that is harrasing you if they joined in on the decoder smashing as well? That would kill any argument

Reactions: Like 1


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## Stillwaters (25/9/19)

It's very simple for a blood test to be taken to see if there is THC in the body. Strange that the CDC has not instructed this be done when providing guidelines/ instructions for physicians to follow when patients present with these respiratory problems

Reactions: Agree 2


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## RichJB (25/9/19)

I suppose it goes towards freedoms and appropriate medical ethics. These people are not on trial and are not accused of any wrongdoing. Forcing them to submit to a test which establishes the veracity of their testimony is probably deemed excessive.

The test might also be misleading in terms of medical evidence. It is conceivable that someone got sick from vaping a non-THC cartridge, but also smokes marijuana occasionally. Would the test be able to differentiate between THC from smoking weed and from vaping a THC cartridge?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Stillwaters (25/9/19)

Silver said:


> Agreed - always better to be calm and collected
> 
> By the way, I couldn’t place his accent. At one point I thought he may have been an ex-South African. Then I heard a bit of the Australian accent.


Prof David Abrams is a South African, having done a BSc (hons) in Psychology and Computer Science at Wits. He has held very senior positions in various organisations in the USA, mostly related to tobacco harm reduction

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Stillwaters (25/9/19)

RichJB said:


> I suppose it goes towards freedoms and appropriate medical ethics. These people are not on trial and are not accused of any wrongdoing. Forcing them to submit to a test which establishes the veracity of their testimony is probably deemed excessive.
> 
> The test might also be misleading in terms of medical evidence. It is conceivable that someone got sick from vaping a non-THC cartridge, but also smokes marijuana occasionally. Would the test be able to differentiate between THC from smoking weed and from vaping a THC cartridge?


It's not a case of protecting freedoms, it's required to identify a cause. If the CDC requires blood tests be done, there is very little one can do about it, except maybe on religious grounds. No one is accusing them of wrong doing (except maybe their parents). The physicians need to ask the questions, but then follow up with tests as people may not be aware of the importance of something they took or try to hide it. 

The test will probably not be able to differentiate whether the THC was smoked or vaped, in fact highly unlikely. However, medical professionals will then be able to direct their questions even more to get closer to the truth.

The truth may, though, be too inconvenient to some.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## RichJB (25/9/19)

Marijuana is still illegal in many states. The federal govt ordering doctors to do blood tests, which could later be used as evidence that the patient committed a crime, is not going to go down well with American voters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## CaliGuy (25/9/19)

Quick...someone...anyone, we need to ban the sun...it’s killing people, especially the vulnerable youth! #TrumpSaveUs

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 5


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## rsa (25/9/19)

Calafornia has urged people to stop vaping due to the obvious dangers . The CEO of Juul has quit and PMI has pulled out of merger talks . The writing is on the wall . Stop vaping before you payb the ultimate price

Reactions: Like 1


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## Adephi (25/9/19)

rsa said:


> Calafornia has urged people to stop vaping due to the obvious dangers . The CEO of Juul has quit and PMI has pulled out of merger talks . The writing is on the wall . Stop vaping before you payb the ultimate price



The CEO of Juul quiting is most likely the best thing to come out of this.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Room Fogger (25/9/19)

rsa said:


> Calafornia has urged people to stop vaping due to the obvious dangers . The CEO of Juul has quit and PMI has pulled out of merger talks . The writing is on the wall . Stop vaping before you payb the ultimate price


I’ll take my chance with the reduced harm, even if it is just 30% safer, bargain. Since I started vaping I can breathe and climb stairs again, proof is in the pudding, so screw California, if they want to keep on dying go ahead. Best news with Juul ceo quitting, maybe some agreement or improvements can now be made.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Room Fogger (25/9/19)

Just hit me, is California not one of the states that is most likely to default on the “smokers bonds” due to dropping sales?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## CashKat88 (25/9/19)

The ignorance of others makes me very angry, when someone opens their mouth to tell me vaping is bad, i have to keep my calm because this very thing that has made me a much healthier person than when i was smoking is being threatened by stupid ignorant people who don't even vape sitting there on their high horses puffing those disgusting, smelly coffin nails....
I don't understand why my freedom is being traded for their profits.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Stillwaters (25/9/19)

Room Fogger said:


> Just hit me, is California not one of the states that is most likely to default on the “smokers bonds” due to dropping sales?


Yes, together with NY and a few others. Mainly the ones who are passing the no flavour laws.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hooked (25/9/19)

I had such a lovely experience today. A waitress - a young lass who finished school last year only - asked me about the vaping deaths. She doesn't vape but a friend of hers does. Her friend had told her that it's got nothing to do with vaping per se, but she wanted a second opinion. She was really interested in listening to me. What a pleasant change to speak to someone who *really* listens and who *really* wants *correct* information. She is a shining example of how people should be!

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## Hooked (25/9/19)

Maybe vaping will be let off the hook now that Trump has bigger problems to worry about ... maybe ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Resistance (25/9/19)

Classic!!!
.
let's ban clothes too,it give an uneven skin tan.



CaliGuy said:


> Quick...someone...anyone, we need to ban the sun...it’s killing people, especially the vulnerable youth! #TrumpSaveUs
> 
> View attachment 178618

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Resistance (25/9/19)

Those that said they dont vape THC didn't say they not vaping CBD either.



RichJB said:


> Earlier in the thread, @Silver informed that some of the victims are saying they weren't vaping THC. I presume that is what sparked the question I responded to - that it surely couldn't be flavours.
> 
> This from the Guardian:
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hooked (25/9/19)

*Walmart Dumps Vaping*
https://www.planetofthevapes.co.uk/news/vaping-news/2019-09-23_walmart-dumps-vaping.html
23 Sept. 2019

"Walmart ...has made the decision to drop all vaping products from its stores. Its slogan “Save money, live better” rings a bit hollow as it denies safer nicotine products to its customers but continues to profit from tobacco product sales.

[...]

Tony Abboud, executive director of the Vapor Technology Association, commented: “The fact that Walmart is reducing access for adult smokers to regulated vapour products while continuing to sell combustible cigarettes is irresponsible. This will drive former adult smokers to purchase more cigarettes. Science has demonstrated that vaping as a substitute for smoking saves lives.”

Responding to the rampant gun-related deaths, Walmart made the decision to restrict sales of some ammunition and ban open carry, but still sells a wide range of guns. It is not removing cigarettes from sale because of proven links to cancer.

The American Vaping Association is a non-profit organisation that advocates for fair and sensible regulation of vapor products. Its President, Gregory Conley, said in a statement: “You know you are in the middle of a moral panic when big corporations like Walmart find it is easier to sell deadly combustible tobacco products than to sell harm reduction alternatives. Removing vaping products from shelves will do nothing to stop drug dealers from continuing to sell contaminated marijuana oil cartridges on the street. This is like 7-Eleven announcing they’ll no longer be selling beer and wine because some people went blind from drinking moonshine made in a bathtub.”

“This is the natural consequence of a seemingly never-ending stream of misleading news stories and over the top pronouncements from elected officials. This is a good month to be a cigarette manufacturer.”

Trade group The National Association of Convenience Stores announced that it would not be recommending similar action for its members. Senior vice president Lyle Beckwith said: “We are not scientists, we are retailers. Our job is to sell legal products responsibly.”

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hooked (25/9/19)

"Quoting from the above article on Walmart: 

"" It is not removing cigarettes from sale because of proven links to cancer." ???

and "This is a good month to be a cigarette manufacturer.” Say no more.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RichJB (26/9/19)

Hooked said:


> "" It is not removing cigarettes from sale because of proven links to cancer." ???



It is clumsy and ambiguous wording, the journalist should have phrased it more clearly. "Despite" would work better than "because of" to convey what they mean.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Grand Guru (26/9/19)

RichJB said:


> It is clumsy and ambiguous wording, the journalist should have phrased it more clearly. "Despite" would work better than "because of" to convey what they mean.


I think this statement attests to the absurdity of this whole situation.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Grand Guru (27/9/19)

It’s not all doom and gloom.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## rsa (27/9/19)

Manufactures will always assure there are no dangers because its all about money .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Grand Guru (28/9/19)

Some more good news from Canada

Reactions: Informative 3


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## CMMACKEM (28/9/19)

I have spoken to the reputable and famed juice maker Adirondack operating out of New York. They are shutting down as of the 4th of October.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Silver (28/9/19)

CMMACKEM said:


> I have spoken to the reputable and famed juice maker Adirondack operating out of New York. They are shutting down as of the 4th of October.



This type of news is so sad

Reactions: Agree 4


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## CMMACKEM (28/9/19)

Silver said:


> This type of news is so sad



Yeah, I wasn't aware that it included manufacturing too.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver (28/9/19)

CMMACKEM said:


> Yeah, I wasn't aware that it included manufacturing too.



I thought it was the ban on flavourings (ex tobacco)
So that's probably 90% of their production

Not sure if they still allow manufacturing for export - but maybe the US is their biggest market.

Next question I would have is say they have a ban on flavourings in New York - then can you produce flavoured liquids in New York but sell them to a shop in a state that hasn't banned it yet?

Reactions: Like 2


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## WBotha (28/9/19)

Today I got annoyed with a old man . Just shows how the sheepeople walk amongst us . Im part of a archery club , we are a fairly small group of people and im the only one there that vapes and offcourse I make clouds but I try to respect the people and I always make sure my clouds is blowing away from everyone . 

Today was different an older man started going mental when I greeted him . Here is some qoutes
" you people are killing yourself with these rubbish that you inhale " 
" it is unhealty for the environment " 
"You people are so dumb ....." 

And then he said something , something very close to home . 
I asked him if he as done any research and replied with cleary you are delusional and dont watch the news because Carte blanche reported on recent news of vaping .

According to him they also said that DIY coils and e juice is the main corporate in the mess

Now I can go on and on about this Oom I just ignored him and walked way . 
Did somebody see the carle blanche in question ?
What can we do about it ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver (28/9/19)

The sad part about that @WBotha is that the media has painted vaping in a bad light and most people who dont know much about vaping just end up think that vaping is bad - as a result. 

You cant really blame them. When one reads something from several "reliable" news sources on a topic one doesnt know much about - one is easily convinced. And one seldom does further research. 

Going on a tyrade at you at the archery meeting was wrong of him - but maybe he is a smoker who doesnt want to quit. Or maybe he knows someone else in his family that vapes and it bugs him so he takes it out on you? 

Nevertheless, I think the only way we can fight this is to try spread the good word about vaping and how it has helped so many of us to quit smoking and feel better - years on for many of us.

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## Hooked (28/9/19)

CMMACKEM said:


> I have spoken to the reputable and famed juice maker Adirondack operating out of New York. They are shutting down as of the 4th of October.



How awful. How many people will be without jobs?? But the politicians make their fat arses comfortable on padded leather chairs and are driven around in fancy cars. Makes me sick.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Hooked (28/9/19)

WBotha said:


> Today I got annoyed with a old man . Just shows how the sheepeople walk amongst us . Im part of a archery club , we are a fairly small group of people and im the only one there that vapes and offcourse I make clouds but I try to respect the people and I always make sure my clouds is blowing away from everyone .
> 
> Today was different an older man started going mental when I greeted him . Here is some qoutes
> " you people are killing yourself with these rubbish that you inhale "
> ...



What I see is that we talk, talk, talk on the forum. That isn't helping. Where is the VPA???? WHAT are they doing??? [USERGROUP=3]@Admins[/USERGROUP] perhaps you could contact them and ask them to contact Carte Blanche. I am sure that Carte Blanche would welcome another perspective from someone who is CALM and KNOWLEDGEABLE.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## SparkySA (28/9/19)

This should shut up alot of idiots

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Hooked (29/9/19)

SparkySA said:


> This should shut up alot of idiots




@SparkySA Unfortunately idiots tend to have noodles for brains and there is nothing that will shut them up.

As far as this report is concerned, it's a great pity that it was sponsored by Kilo as, being an international juice maker, they have a vested interest. If it had been sponsored by a neutral organisation it would carry weight.

In addition, in addition, Polosi's research consists of a cohort of only 9 people. That's not enough for significant results.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Willyza (29/9/19)

https://mybroadband.co.za/news/tren...e-lung-in-south-africa.html?source=newsletter

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Hooked (29/9/19)

Willyza said:


> https://mybroadband.co.za/news/tren...e-lung-in-south-africa.html?source=newsletter



Oh. My. Vape. Is it possible that people can be wholly ignorant of the facts?? Utter BS!!!!

EDIT: And to make it worse, they've now coined the phrase "vape-lung". That's going to spread faster than a fynbos fire.

EDIT: I think we should all have our lungs X-rayed and submit the X-rays to them, so that they can see what "vape-lung" looks like!!!

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## Room Fogger (29/9/19)

Like @ARYANTO said earlier, there is no pill for stupidity, and no one is more deaf than he who doesn’t want to hear. 

I think some individuals should return their degrees, because an education is a gift, and comes with the responsibility of making sure of *the facts!*

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## Hooked (29/9/19)

Room Fogger said:


> Like @ARYANTO said earlier, there is no pill for stupidity, and no one is more deaf than he who doesn’t want to hear.
> 
> I think some individuals should return their degrees, because an education is a gift, and comes with the responsibility of making sure of *the facts!*



Their degree of ignorance caps any PhD - and we are going to bear the brunt of it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## RenaldoRheeder (29/9/19)

Willyza said:


> https://mybroadband.co.za/news/tren...e-lung-in-south-africa.html?source=newsletter



English being my second language, I had to Google to get a better understanding of this article. And then I found the explanation















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## SparkySA (29/9/19)

Guys I have a few legitimate questions

1. Flavors
If flavors are safe to consume - mouth - - stomach - - liver(filter) - - kidney(filter) according to studies are safe
If flavors are inhaled - mouth - - lungs (air filter)
Studies (unknown)
This would be a study that would legitimately peak my interest, in our mouths, throat and lungs we have some defence systems but not as extensive as liver and so on.

Now let's compare that to stinkys that's kind of irrelevant but something worth looking into

Edit: keep in mind I am a slow thinker, I research. Dig into alot of articles listen and the start asking questions

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## RichJB (29/9/19)

There have been a number of studies into flavours, and research is ongoing. Other than the minor risk of flavours that contain DAAP, there are some other concerns. They have tested airway cell deaths when flavours are passed over them and death counts vary widely by flavour. Cinnamon is not good, avoid if you can.

All tests show less cell deaths than tobacco smoke being passed over the same cells but the differences between smoke and vapour aren't as pronounced as they are in other chemical tests. So it's probably no more than a slight/moderate risk from what they have found so far. Still, if they can identify what flavouring chemicals are causing the most harm, they can probably work to minimise or eliminate those compounds in future flavour formulations. It's an area where FlavourArt are doing good work.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## SparkySA (29/9/19)

RichJB said:


> There have been a number of studies into flavours, and research is ongoing. Other than the minor risk of flavours that contain DAAP, there are some other concerns. They have tested airway cell deaths when flavours are passed over them and death counts vary widely by flavour. Cinnamon is not good, avoid if you can.
> 
> All tests show less cell deaths than tobacco smoke being passed over the same cells but the differences between smoke and vapour aren't as pronounced as they are in other chemical tests. So it's probably no more than a slight/moderate risk from what they have found so far. Still, if they can identify what flavouring chemicals are causing the most harm, they can probably work to minimise or eliminate those compounds in future flavour formulations. It's an area where FlavourArt are doing good work.


Sounds good the thing is with a bazillion flavors it would be good to figure out the problems before they happen because if 1 media ass hat finds out that e.g: ninja Flav is bad they will run with it and do more damage

Reactions: Agree 2


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## SparkySA (29/9/19)

https://vaping.org/read-testimonials/

Please write your testimonials here

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hooked (29/9/19)

SparkySA said:


> Guys I have a few legitimate questions
> 
> 1. Flavors
> If flavors are safe to consume - mouth - - stomach - - liver(filter) - - kidney(filter) according to studies are safe
> ...



@Sparky It's a pity that not everyone follows your example of reading/researching and asking questions. You're doing the right thing. I've also wondered about flavours but vaping has been around for about 10 years, and I think it was @Silver who said that if there had been any problems they would have surfaced by now.

But keep digging. So many people think that because we vape we close our eyes to what is going on, whereas the opposite is true. It's *because* we vape that we read everything that we come across.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Hooked (29/9/19)

RichJB said:


> There have been a number of studies into flavours, and research is ongoing. Other than the minor risk of flavours that contain DAAP, there are some other concerns. They have tested airway cell deaths when flavours are passed over them and death counts vary widely by flavour. Cinnamon is not good, avoid if you can.
> 
> All tests show less cell deaths than tobacco smoke being passed over the same cells but the differences between smoke and vapour aren't as pronounced as they are in other chemical tests. So it's probably no more than a slight/moderate risk from what they have found so far. Still, if they can identify what flavouring chemicals are causing the most harm, they can probably work to minimise or eliminate those compounds in future flavour formulations. It's an area where FlavourArt are doing good work.



@RichJB Ah yes, I'd forgotten about cinnamon. Thnx! Personally, I would still vape something with cinnamon in it, because it's not one of my favourite flavours, so I'd be unlikely to vape more than a tank or two. But vapers who enjoy cinnamon could perhaps proceed with caution. 

The bottom line is, as you said, that whatever flavour we're vaping, it's still a* healthier option* than smoking.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Silver (29/9/19)

Hooked said:


> @Sparky It's a pity that not everyone follows your example of reading/researching and asking questions. You're doing the right thing. I've also wondered about flavours but vaping has been around for about 10 years, and I think it was @Silver who said that if there had been any problems they would have surfaced by now.
> 
> But keep digging. So many people think that because we vape we close our eyes to what is going on, whereas the opposite is true. It's *because* we vape that we read everything that we come across.



Thanks @Hooked
I agree with you
And I also think its great you doing the research @SparkySA

From my understanding, flavours are safe to eat - because they originally are food grade that are used in foods.

But the stomach is an entirely different place to the lungs.

Inhaling these flavour molecules on a long-term basis may not appear to cause any harm - and it probably doesn't cause much harm (in my view) - but who knows what the long-term impacts are?

When smoking first started - I would imagine it took many years for scientists and doctors to discover that it's causing cancer. So even though vaping has been around for say 10 years and more mainstream the last 5 years or so - it might still take some time to discover what the impact of inhaling these food grade flavourings is.

My luck they will say menthol flavouring does something to the lung tissue over the long term...

In any event, I am quite confident that whatever the longer term risks are - they are MUCH less than smoking - so I am personally happy I converted my smoking into vaping for now.

Will be interesting to follow how the research on this goes...

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## SparkySA (30/9/19)

https://smoke-free-future.fin24.com...ile+300x81+[Mobile+-+Card+2+-+300x81+-+Image]

Check out the PFF

Reactions: Like 1


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## Room Fogger (30/9/19)

SparkySA said:


> https://smoke-free-future.fin24.com/Demand-for-less-harmful-alternatives/index.html?mvt=i&mvn=d9efccc42c814cc8a5b49263b677bfda&mvp=NA-NEWSCOM-11238449&mvl=Fn-Mobile+300x81+[Mobile+-+Card+2+-+300x81+-+Image]
> 
> Check out the PFF


I’m unpacking winter clothes again, Hell is going to freeze over? First time I’ve seen demand and harm reduction used in the same article

Reactions: Like 2


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## RichJB (30/9/19)

Unfortunately when such articles are "provided by PMI", it merely strengthens the public perception that vaping is just big tobacco's way to keep half the population hooked on nicotine and buying their products.

The article makes perfect sense but big tobacco has such a sordid history of lying, and broader society is so keen to dismantle the nicotine industry, that it will fall on deaf ears.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## SparkySA (30/9/19)

Well I think we should leave to politics to the idiots

If flavor ban happens, we just make our own juices, the sale of concentrates is not illigal just flavored e-juice, recipes will just be more available and we will have a DIY boom, I mean steroids are illegal but I can get that couriered to my doorstep, so if we believe in our community and we don't stop vaping what can anyone do, with 8mill Vapers in US and I guess a few million here and 10mill un the uk well what can anyone do. China won't stop building devices, pg and vg and nicotine are easily available, worst that can happen is we vape food flavors,

Reactions: Like 1


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## SparkySA (30/9/19)

Speaking about flavors, I'm stocking up in 500ml Flav soon we have amazing vendors and we trust them with our lives

Reactions: Like 1


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## SparkySA (30/9/19)

If push comes to shove, we make our own Flav, the vape industry is very innovative and we have a local Flav manufacturer if I'm not mistaken, and I don't mind to buy Flav from the EU vaping is there to stay

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Hooked (30/9/19)

Silver said:


> Thanks @Hooked
> 
> When smoking first started - I would imagine it took many years for scientists and doctors to discover that it's causing cancer. So even though vaping has been around for say 10 years and more mainstream the last 5 years or so - it might still take some time to discover what the impact of inhaling these food grade flavourings is. .



@Silver I often think about this and it would be interesting to conduct a survey of everyone who has been vaping for 5 years or longer, asking them to state which medical issues they've had in the past 5 years. Of course it doesn't mean that those medical issues were caused by vaping, but one might just discover a common denominator.[/QUOTE]

Reactions: Like 2


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## SparkySA (30/9/19)

Hooked said:


> @Silver I often think about this and it would be interesting to conduct a survey of everyone who has been vaping for 5 years or longer, asking them to state which medical issues they've had in the past 5 years. Of course it doesn't mean that those medical issues were caused by vaping, but one might just discover a common denominator.


[/QUOTE]
Well for me it was severe sinus in the evenings and in the morning I wake up, I have more energy and i passed all my annual medical,

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Room Fogger (30/9/19)

Easy for me as well @Hooked , I can climb stairs again without resting after each 7th one, I don’t donate a lung every morning anymore, my doctor and neurologist don’t have a problem with it after monitoring, unfortunately I still have sinus due to other allergies, but 3rd winter without bronchitis, so something is working.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## Hooked (30/9/19)

SmokeyJoe said:


> Im actually at a point now where the love of vaping has diminished as a result of the continued harassment. Im actually thinking about quitting. im sick and tired of explaining to every tom **** and harry
> Even my older brother stopped vaping and went back to smokes just because of the false information distributed by the media and the US



@SmokeyJoe Going back to stinkies is exactly what Big Tobacco wants you to do! Don't give them that pleasure!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## SmokeyJoe (30/9/19)

Hooked said:


> @SmokeyJoe Going back to stinkies is exactly what Big Tobacco wants you to do! Don't give them that pleasure!


No ill never go back to stinkies. I was in ICU with a collapsed lung 8 years ago from smoking

Reactions: Like 5 | Informative 1


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## Gandalf Vapes (30/9/19)

Here's the sad bit. Our MD is incredibly anti smoking, and he banned smoking in the premises years ago. Now he has read all this bull about people being hospitalized and dying as a result of vaping as the press puts it and has banned that too now. Needless to say, I am thoroughly cheesed off with the press for writing a load of baloni without doing any research whatsoever, and the sad thing is, that people who know absolutely nothing about vaping believe every word that they say. It's very saddening.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 5


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## Alex (30/9/19)

Since joining this forum years ago, I made it my mission to try and spread the positive news that vaping saves lives, and is the biggest boon to public health ever.

But no matter what factual evidence is put forth in various white papers, and no matter how many health experts vocally support vaping. The lame stream media and corrupt politicians/NGO's continue to spread outright lies and false information.

We will never win this battle as long as the media controls the narrative. The majority of people today are sheep that blindly put their trust in the "News Peddlers" of today.

So try to forget about vaping for a second and think about all the other things we are fed by the media on a daily basis. Then have a look at your own bias toward that topic, and think about the fact that you have probably been misled and outright lied to by the very people you have trusted to bring the truth.

We truly live in a matrix, and most people given the choice, will happily refuse to take the red pill. _from wikipedia(The *red pill*, together with its opposite, the *blue pill*, is a popular cultural meme, a metaphor representing a choice between the "red pill", representing a life of harsh knowledge, desperate freedom, and the brutal truths of reality, and the "blue pill", representing a life of luxurious security, tranquil happiness, and the blissful ignorance of the harsh realities of life, basking in an (essentially dishonest) illusion_

Reactions: Agree 5 | Winner 2


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## Adephi (1/10/19)

A lengthy article but another great one from Dr F

http://www.ecigarette-research.org/...Tu6UPZB0fQGZrB76ABlmTML-D_qB1E6mwdVJN0jFhKuhY

Reactions: Like 3 | Thanks 2


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## SparkySA (1/10/19)

Alex said:


> Since joining this forum years ago, I made it my mission to try and spread the positive news that vaping saves lives, and is the biggest boon to public health ever.
> 
> But no matter what factual evidence is put forth in various white papers, and no matter how many health experts vocally support vaping. The lame stream media and corrupt politicians/NGO's continue to spread outright lies and false information.
> 
> ...


As long as everyone refuses the narrative then everything is fine 

I have a saying and you may quote me on this in the future, nothing fcks up an argument like a few good facts

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## SmokeyJoe (1/10/19)

SparkySA said:


> As long as everyone refuses the narrative then everything is fine
> 
> I have a saying and you may quote me on this in the future, nothing fcks up an argument like a few good facts



My ex wife will disagree

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 5 | Can relate 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (1/10/19)

Well I dont really follow all these vaping is bad propaganda but just a few things.
Banning of flàvours is nothing new, I dont think anyone claims the flavours cause lung issues. The flavour ban has been in the background for some time, long before the lung deaths.
Vaping has always claimed to be the way to stop smoking. So to stop smoking you can do it with tobacco flavoured juice.
Funny thing is most people when they try to stop smoking and start vaping, it will be suggested to start with tobacco flavour, Im sure most of us bought a tobacco first. Now we have all these vapers writing little banners how they stopped smoking on caramel litchy, butterscotch orange etc. Why are we as vapers also "selling" false propaganda?

Surely we should see their agenda with flavour ban has some merit? How many teenagers or people that never smoked, will start vaping if there is only tobacco flavours? How many poeple will keep on vaping for more than a year or two if there is only tobacco flavours? Does vaping not claim to be a way to stop smoking? With nic patches etc you dont continue using it for years?

I think as vapers we should be very carefull and not just follow and repeat the cries from vaping vendors and people making a living out of vaping. Otherwise you just sit on the other side of the fence, spreading propaganda the same way you accusing the other side off.

You cant have your bread butter on both sides. The vaping community should decide if they want to be a lifestyle or a means to quit smoking. If they decide that they are a lifestyle, fashion hobby etc, then they must take whatever the governments, anti vaping community etc throw at them. If they decide they are a means to stop smoking, they and the governments, anti vaping community can sit together and find middle ground.
But stupid propaganda wars from both sides will only have one looser.

For example. People smoke for 20 years amd not really have much medical issues. Now they vape for 3 years and claim they have no medical issues. DUHh? What does that proof? The internet and facebook is full of these unscientific claims by vapers. Reminds me of the "my grandfather smoked till he was 90 years old and had no health issues" stories. Stupid unscientific propaganda

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 2


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## RichJB (1/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> How many teenagers or people that never smoked, will start vaping if there is only tobacco flavours?



The same number who started smoking when cigarettes only had tobacco flavours?



Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> The vaping community should decide if they want to be a lifestyle or a means to quit smoking.



It doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both. There is no doubt that many/most vapers have no intention to quit nicotine. Doctors will always recommend quitting everything. However, transitioning to a less harmful form of nic is better. It is there for people who want to quit the harms of combustible tobacco. If they then decide to also quit the much lesser harms of vaping, so much the better.

One thing that vaping offers quitters, which smoking doesn't, is a way to regulate your nic intake, especially if you DIY. I vape 1mg juice now, down from 18 or 24 when I first started. I couldn't have regulated my nic in cigarettes the same way. You get light cigarettes with less nic but those are your two basic options - full nic and light. You can't tweak it down 1mg at a time like you can with DIY.

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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (1/10/19)

[QUOTE="RichJB, post: 809078, member: 6The same number who started smoking when cigarettes only had tobacco flavours?
Well even on this tiny community on the forum there is people who never smoked but vape. Let me just repeat that again, never smoked but vape. So no definately not same number.


It doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both. There is no doubt that many/most vapers have no intention to quit nicotine. Doctors will always recommend quitting everything. However, transitioning to a less harmful form of nic is better. It is there for people who want to quit the harms of combustible tobacco. If they then decide to also quit the much lesser harms of vaping, so much the better.

No it doen not have to be one or the other, but like with cigarettes, alcohol etc dont complain if there is sin taxes, regulations etc. Funny thing is, as soon as regulations, taxes etc are mentioned, vapers play the "it saved my life card" , then no mention of lifestyle, funky flavours, hobbies, fashion etc?

One thing that vaping offers quitters, which smoking doesn't, is a way to regulate your nic intake, especially if you DIY. I vape 1mg juice now, down from 18 or 24 when I first started. I couldn't have regulated my nic in cigarettes the same way. You get light cigarettes with less nic but those are your two basic options - full nic and light. You can't tweak it down 1mg at a time like you can with DIY.
Yes like 30-52 mg nicsalts? Yes like 200watt dual coil 60ml juice a day chain vaping? Surely nic is not the only harmfull thing in vape juice? Is the rest 100% healthy, or vape propaganda? 95% less harmfull than a cigarette does not mean harmless?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hooked (1/10/19)

Alex said:


> Since joining this forum years ago, I made it my mission to try and spread the positive news that vaping saves lives, and is the biggest boon to public health ever.
> 
> But no matter what factual evidence is put forth in various white papers, and no matter how many health experts vocally support vaping. The lame stream media and corrupt politicians/NGO's continue to spread outright lies and false information.
> 
> ...



Quite right @Alex, which is why celebrities/Royalty often don't follow articles about themselves. Can you imagine how frustrating it must be to read utter BS which someone has written about you!!!

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## alex1501 (1/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> If they decide that they are a lifestyle, fashion hobby etc, then they must take whatever the governments, anti vaping community etc throw at them.



Why???

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (1/10/19)

alex1501 said:


> Why???


Because when I smoked I did not care for tax on cigarettes or warning labels on my packets, because I know its not healthy and that it will put a strain on the country's health bill.
Because we all know sugar is not healthy, thus we dont complain, or have no case if there is sugar tax.
Because I know the strain alcohol abuse put on the socioeconomic and medical system om a country I dont have a case or complain about sin tax on it.


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## alex1501 (1/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Because when I smoked I did not care for tax on cigarettes or warning labels on my packets, because I know its not healthy and that it will put a strain on the country's health bill.
> Because we all know sugar is not healthy, thus we dont complain, or have no case if there is sugar tax.
> Because I know the strain alcohol abuse put on the socioeconomic and medical system om a country I dont have a case or complain about sin tax on it.



That only explains your personal acceptance (and/or activism in favor) of the existing tax system.
It does not in the slightest explain your previous statement: 
"If they decide that they are a lifestyle, fashion hobby etc, then *they must take whatever the governments, anti vaping community etc throw at them*."
That statement is wrong on so many levels, that it makes me question the true motivation behind it.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Hooked (1/10/19)

@Jean claude Vaaldamme (in black) and my comments (in blue)



Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Surely we should see their agenda with flavour ban has some merit? How many teenagers or people that never smoked, will start vaping if there is only tobacco flavours?
> 
> Agree. But teenagers will start *something*, so let it rather be vaping than anything else.
> 
> ...



*No way!* Smoking is a lifestyle for many but the govt. doesn't throw anything at them, we, the anti-smoking community, do not throw anything at them. But we must be doormats? *No way!*

I'm an extremely tolerant person when it comes to people's decisions, lifestyles etc. Even if I don't like or agree with what someone is doing I don't say a word, because it's their choice; their life. I expect the same consideration.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Hooked (1/10/19)

alex1501 said:


> That only explains your personal acceptance (and/or activism in favor) of the existing tax system.
> It does not in the slightest explain your previous statement:
> "If they decide that they are a lifestyle, fashion hobby etc, then *they must take whatever the governments, anti vaping community etc throw at them*."
> 
> ...



I agree @alex1501 and there are a few other markers which confirm my thoughts and which I've noticed before.


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## Hooked (1/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> I think as vapers we should be very carefull and not just follow and repeat the cries from vaping vendors and people making a living out of vaping.



If we don't repeat the cries of "people making a living out of vaping" they will no longer be able to do so - and we will no longer have mods, coils, juice etc.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (1/10/19)

Hooked said:


> @Jean claude Vaaldamme (in black) and my comments (in blue)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


???? Smokers pay heavy tax, they are almost not allowed to smoke anywhere except their own backyard. There are so many examples of everything getting thrown at smokers. Ever seen a smokers life insurance payments?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (1/10/19)

alex1501 said:


> That only explains your personal acceptance (and/or activism in favor) of the existing tax system.
> It does not in the slightest explain your previous statement:
> "If they decide that they are a lifestyle, fashion hobby etc, then *they must take whatever the governments, anti vaping community etc throw at them*."
> That statement is wrong on so many levels, that it makes me question the true motivation behind it.


Dont know what is so difficult to understand. If you do something that may harm your or anybody else's health, and thus cost your government money in the long run, surely they may throw the book at you, like they do with cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, emmision tax, factories polluting air or water etc etc.
Do you have a problem with sugar tax? Do you write facebook banners claiming your health is excellent and sugar tax should be scrapped? Do you have facebook banners claiming you dont want to pay extra for your 4.6l V8 Ford? N bcause you will have no case.
Thus unless somebody come with evidence that vaping is harmless, we will have no case for anyboddy to throw the book at us, if we promote it as a lifestyle. If you promote is as nly a means to stop smoking them you have a case.
People are quick to throw in the " but the British government supports vaping". Do they promote vaping as a lifestyle or as a means for smokers only to quit?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Asterix (1/10/19)

The British endorse vaping as a harm reduction product. Therefore to encourage people to switch from
Smoking there should be zero sin tax attached.

Unfortunately this won’t happen here... it will be just another excuse to fill coffers. Take the tyre tax- none of that is going back into saving the environment. I could stomach a vaping sin tax if the proceeds went towards anti-tobacco education and vaping promotion as a Harm reduction product. But alas, SABC/Eskom/SAA are a bit low on funds again.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (1/10/19)

Hooked said:


> If we don't repeat the cries of "people making a living out of vaping" they will no longer be able to do so - and we will no longer have mods, coils, juice etc.


Yes, when Vinyl was replaced with cd, the music died.
When fax was replaced with email, the communication died.

If vaping is really the better, safer new technology, it will not seize to exist, even if there is only tobacco flavours. If you the new kid on the block and cant compete with the money thrown at you from the old boys. You take it on the chin what they throw at you, you make it better even with just tobacco flavours. You pay your due and then one day you will be in the majority and can call the shots.

Netflix did not cry and make facebook banners when dstv paid their due for decades in SA and Netflix was not allowed just to jump in at the SA market. Dstv own the broadcast rights to most popular shows. Netflix may be the future but have to back down in SA, take their time as dstv'molopoly runs out and will then control the market.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Adephi (1/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Yes, when Vinyl was replaced with cd, the music died.
> When fax was replaced with email, the communication died.
> 
> If vaping is really the better, safer new technology, it will not seize to exist, even if there is only tobacco flavours. If you the new kid on the block and cant compete with the money thrown at you from the old boys. You take it on the chin what they throw at you, you make it better even with just tobacco flavours. You pay your due and then one day you will be in the majority and can call the shots.
> ...



I sometimes wonder if you are on the right forum.

Here we try to fight for our rights to vape how we want to and you say we must just suck it up. Hell no!

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5 | Winner 1


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## Hooked (1/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> ???? Smokers pay heavy tax, they are almost not allowed to smoke anywhere except their own backyard. There are so many examples of everything getting thrown at smokers. Ever seen a smokers life insurance payments?



Then vaping can be taxed. I'd rather have it taxed than banned, or have flavour banned. 

And we are going to be confined to vaping in our backyards only. While it's very sad that one day I won't be able to enjoy a cappuccino and a vape at my local coffee shop, I would at least like to enjoy it at home. The govt has the right to enforce what one does in public, but it *does not* have the right to tell me what to do in my own home.

Life insurance for smokers ... hmmm interesting point. I guess the insurers are hand in hand with Big Pharma.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (1/10/19)

Adephi said:


> I sometimes wonder if you are on the right forum.
> 
> Here we try to fight for our rights to vape how we want to and you say we must just suck it up. Hell no!


Why? If Afrikaans people was more considered and not just our way or the highway, our schools and universities would not be under threat. Or our sport? If you let idiots do the talking for you, you will just cry later.
If some Dictators gave in and found some middle ground, they might still have been alive

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## Hooked (1/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Yes, when Vinyl was replaced with cd, the music died.
> When fax was replaced with email, the communication died.
> .



Sarcasm doesn't help and besides, there is no comparison.

If flavours are banned, *commercially available flavoured juice will die. 
*
If vaping is banned, *vaping will eventually die.*

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## alex1501 (1/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Dont know what is so difficult to understand. If you do something that may harm your or anybody else's health, and thus cost your government money in the long run, surely they may throw the book at you, like they do with cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, emmision tax, factories polluting air or water etc etc.
> Do you have a problem with sugar tax? Do you write facebook banners claiming your health is excellent and sugar tax should be scrapped? Do you have facebook banners claiming you dont want to pay extra for your 4.6l V8 Ford? N bcause you will have no case.
> Thus unless somebody come with evidence that vaping is harmless, we will have no case for anyboddy to throw the book at us, if we promote it as a lifestyle. If you promote is as nly a means to stop smoking them you have a case.
> People are quick to throw in the " but the British government supports vaping". Do they promote vaping as a lifestyle or as a means for smokers only to quit?



It's already established: You support high tax on things and that is your right, regardless of me agreeing with you or not.

However, in my books "must take whatever" includes: Lies, public humiliation, aggressive idiots in my face, flavour bans, total bans,... other people telling me what must (or can"t) I do. I'm just sick and tired of that.

P.S. IMHO any tax other than VAT is immoral and it never solved anything other than personal accounts of the fat-cats in charge of any country.


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## Room Fogger (1/10/19)

Quite a long rant from me, but please bear with me and feel free to disagree. This is my viewpoint and my experience based on life, yours may be the total opposite.

My belief is that we must always guard against a nanny state where someone else makes all of the decisions on your behalf, without your viewpoint being taken into consideration, be they good or bad, based on their own ignorance, perceptions, interpretations, lack of knowledge and likes and dislikes, because that in my eye is oppression. You will always find someone that will take this type of power too far. So if a law says we have to all jump of a bridge, we are legally forced to do so, bad and not the best analogy but it’s to prove a point. Hell no, I’m not jumping, my brain tells me that is bad for my health.

We were given a brain to make decisions, and some will be good, and some will be bad, but we as human beings and individuals decide, we have a right to live our lives based on our decisions and our own views and aspirations. But, we have to respect others and society as they have the same options and rights, and I have to accept that. I chose to smoke for 30+ years, causing harm to myself, and most probably/definitely those around me, and then chose vaping as it most probably saved my life from being lived towing an oxygen cylinder behind me. It is not totally safe, but a safer option, which is my decision to accept the smaller risk to myself and those around me, and I will not apologize to anyone in this regard. If I don’t vape I will in all probability start smoking again, I enjoyed every second of it.

I totally agree that no non smoker should start vaping because it’s cool, but agree with @Hooked that sometimes the lesser of two evils will still be the better choice. I agree children should be kept safe from harm, but we cannot live their lives on their behalf. They have to learn to make their own decisions, their own mistakes as this is part of life and becoming an individual and an adult, and learn that for each decision there will be a consequence. But we can impart knowledge and give advice and lead by example to try and show them the good, and save them some time in having to make all of those mistakes again like we did. And they are crafty little things to get to try those things that are seen as Taboo for them.

I have two sons, neither smoke as I told them and taught them about the dangers, and they chose to learn from my mistake, other kids maybe did not. Same goes for drugs, drinking and driving, which I did and I knew every traffic cop and policeman (chauffeur) in my town, and racing, see previous point, unprotected sex, I’m not a grandfather yet so that seems to be working as well, I hope. That makes me proud, but I’m sure they will still make mistakes in their lives going forward, because they are human. But no one can prescribe which ones they may make and which ones not.

Like the old saying goes, “if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns”, same applies to vaping. I will become a criminal because of the choice I make, but cannot force anyone else to do the same, they have to decide for themselves. But if someone wants to impose their misguided ideology on me based on their ignorance, don’t expect me to just bend over and take it. 

A free society is where you can decide how you want to live your life, taking reasonable laws into consideration for the better of a community, but not having behavior or traits prescribed to you that inhibits you as an individual. Smoking is bad, it will kill you, but so will a lot of other things, pills, drugs nature and sometimes stupidity, but yet people still have a choice, why should I be treated different because I choose to vape.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Winner 7


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## Hooked (1/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Why? If Afrikaans people was more considered and not just our way or the highway, our schools and universities would not be under threat. Or our sport? If you let idiots do the talking for you, you will just cry later.
> If some Dictators gave in and found some middle ground, they might still have been alive



@Jean claude Vaaldamme What on earth have *Afrikaans* people got to do with this discussion on vaping???? You're going off on a tangent. Please keep to the subject.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Funny 1


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## Hooked (1/10/19)

Room Fogger said:


> Quite a long rant from me, but please bear with me and feel free to disagree. This is my viewpoint and my experience based on life, yours may be the total opposite.
> 
> My belief is that we must always guard against a nanny state where someone else makes all of the decisions on your behalf, without your viewpoint being taken into consideration, be they good or bad, based on their own ignorance, perceptions, interpretations, lack of knowledge and likes and dislikes, because that in my eye is oppression. You will always find someone that will take this type of power too far. So if a law says we have to all jump of a bridge, we are legally forced to do so, bad and not the best analogy but it’s to prove a point. Hell no, I’m not jumping, my brain tells me that is bad for my health.
> 
> ...



Well said @Room Fogger!! Thank you for the above. 

I especially like, and I will make a note of it on my computer, your statement that, 
"A free society is where you can decide how you want to live your life, taking reasonable laws into consideration for the better of a community, but not having behavior or traits prescribed to you that inhibits you as an individual."

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## Hooked (1/10/19)

History exam question in the year 2050:

"What was the cause of the South African Civil War which began in 2019?"

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (2/10/19)

Hooked said:


> @Jean claude Vaaldamme What on earth have *Afrikaans* people got to do with this discussion on vaping???? You're going off on a tangent. Please keep to the subject.


Seriously? Its called an example of the principle. Here is a vaping example. On SA facebook groups there is this one guy that loves making videos of him ranting about vape stuff. Often also asking for support to get him on radio talkshows etc.
Now one of the videos I saw he is explaining and compairing vaping to water boiling in a kettle. Most of this guys arguments are totally unscientific and some even ridiculous. Now what will happen if he comes on a vaping talkshow or a meeting with government over laws and regulations, up against scientists, medical experts etc. They will make a fool of him and thus the vaping community.
So yes be carefull who represent you and what arguments they use,, it can cause more harm than good.

And thats my point from the start, vapers with ridiculous arguments should rather not try to fight the battle as they may do more harm. Like Trump will say, everything is a negotiation. If vaping go with the motion f my way or the highway, we will get the highway.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (2/10/19)

Room Fogger said:


> My belief is that we must always guard against a nanny state where someone else makes all of the decisions on your behalf, without your viewpoint being taken into consideration, be they good or bad, based on their own ignorance, perceptions, interpretations, lack of knowledge and likes and dislikes, because that in my eye is oppression. You will always find someone that will take this type of power too far.
> 
> A free society is where you can decide how you want to live your life, taking reasonable laws into consideration for the better of a community, but not having behavior or traits prescribed to you that inhibits you as an individual. Smoking is bad, it will kill you, but so will a lot of other things, pills, drugs nature and sometimes stupidity, but yet people still have a choice, why should I be treated different because I choose to vape.


I think most will agree on your last paragraph. But laws and regulations are set to protect idiots from themselves. This freedom always reminds me of the people that drink a alcohol every day/week, or buy new cars often, or smoke or vape etc etc, but they dont find the need to rather spend their money on medical aid, then when something happen they cry to everyone else who did made the right choices to fund their medical bills. 
Same with smoking, yes you have a choice, but most countries tax you to death for that choice, because at the end of the day the government will have to sit with the burden of that choice you made. And before someone now think that it does not apply to me because I have a medical aid. Its not that simple. If you get sick from your choice you put a strain on your medical aid, if too many people do the same, the medical aids will go bancrupt. If you loose a limb, needs oxygen, get a stroke or die before you 65, then you cant be a productive citizen and contribute to the economy. So you are a burden to the state in so many ways because of your choice.
So if vaping cant proof that its 100% risk free in the long run, unfortunately it will be regulated, controlled, taxed and laws in place like all other harmfull choices. No nanny state, just a negotiation, you make the choice, we tax the choice to compensate for our future burden.

Secondly. Some people here want to pull the deck from under the dwarf. Vaping is not getting banned. Regulations, taxes etc are coming. This can only be good for the industry, I will make a seperate post regarding this.
Yes some countries may even ban flavours. But vaping will not get banned in most democratic countries. If some democratic country decides to ban vaping, someone will just take them to court, like in SA with marijuana. So make your arguments against flavour bans, taxes, regulations, laws, restrictions. But banning vaping as a whole will just happen if some serious health issues gets proven.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## alex1501 (2/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Vaping is not getting banned.


 
*India bans e-cigarettes as global vaping backlash grows *
Ban follows vaping-related deaths in US, with punishment including up to a year in prison
https://www.theguardian.com/society...-e-cigarettes-as-global-vaping-backlash-grows

*Michigan's flavored vape ban stops sales this week*
Enforcement of Michigan's flavored vaping ban begins Wednesday, which means vape and tobacco shops and online retailers will no longer be able to sell flavored e-cigarettes in the state without penalty of fines and possible jail time.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo...-vape-ban-vaping-ecigarette-vapes/2424516001/
*
Thailand vape ban: Travellers unaware they could face up to 10 years in prison for using e cigarettes
The ban has been law since 2014*
https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...arettes-use-bangkok-holidays-uk-a7893981.html
*
Turkey Keeps Vape Ban and Satisfies WHO*
https://vaping360.com/vape-news/58777/turkey-vape-ban-who/
... and a list goes on.



Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> I think most will agree on your last paragraph. But laws and regulations are set to protect idiots from themselves. This freedom always reminds me of the people that drink a alcohol every day/week, or buy new cars often, or smoke or vape etc etc, but they dont find the need to rather spend their money on medical aid, then when something happen they cry to everyone else who did made the right choices to fund their medical bills.
> Same with smoking, yes you have a choice, but most countries tax you to death for that choice, because at the end of the day the government will have to sit with the burden of that choice you made. And before someone now think that it does not apply to me because I have a medical aid. Its not that simple. If you get sick from your choice you put a strain on your medical aid, if too many people do the same, the medical aids will go bancrupt. If you loose a limb, needs oxygen, get a stroke or die before you 65, then you cant be a productive citizen and contribute to the economy. So you are a burden to the state in so many ways because of your choice.



You sound more and more, by the minute, like low level local politician pushing the agenda (or trying to score points with a boss).

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (2/10/19)

alex1501 said:


> *India bans e-cigarettes as global vaping backlash grows *
> Ban follows vaping-related deaths in US, with punishment including up to a year in prison
> https://www.theguardian.com/society...-e-cigarettes-as-global-vaping-backlash-grows
> 
> ...


Lol Yes Turkey and Thailand are democratic countries. The Michigan quote has no point. Low level reading abilities?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## alex1501 (2/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Low level reading abilities?



Very possible in your case. So typical for the poly-tick.


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (2/10/19)

Ad hominem fallacy

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## alex1501 (2/10/19)

When the attack on the person is relevant to the argument, it is not a fallacy.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Room Fogger (3/10/19)

Interesting short video that I found while suffering from some insomnia, don’t know all of the details as stated here but some food for thought.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RichJB (3/10/19)

I'm not sure where Vic gets his figures from, heh. Last week he was claiming that India has 42 million vapers. Suffice it to say, I haven't been able to find any source online that shows the same figures he provides.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BumbleBee (3/10/19)



Reactions: Winner 6


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## RichJB (3/10/19)

GrimmGreen gives some incredibly good advice:

Reactions: Like 2


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## alex1501 (3/10/19)

RichJB said:


> GrimmGreen gives some incredibly good advice:



Nice video, great advice, but people are driven by emotion and not by the facts. Media and polititians are abusing that every single day.
Another problem is who and how is presenting those facts. Even biger problem is that 10 people can stare at the same fact and have 10 diferent perceptions and understanding of the same fact. Who decides the official version in that case?
How many people will beleieve in the "official" story (from the previous video) and how many in the "other" guy's story?
So many questions...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (3/10/19)

alex1501 said:


> Nice video, great advice, but people are driven by emotion and not by the facts. Media and polititians are abusing that every single day.
> Another problem is who and how is presenting those facts. Even biger problem is that 10 people can stare at the same fact and have 10 diferent perceptions and understanding of the same fact. Who decides the official version in that case?
> How many people will beleieve in the "official" story (from the previous video) and how many in the "other" guy's story?
> So many questions...


Yes how many vapers here gave us the "facebook facts" that all this is driven by big tobacco and big pharma? With no proof, just facebook conspiracy theories? Hell you even played with your Ouija board and rolled a few dolosse and gave your "facts" that Im a government official with an agenda. A few others also looked how the bones fall to get their conspiracies concluded.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## alex1501 (3/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Hell you even played with your Ouija board and rolled a few dolosse and gave your "facts" that Im a government official with an agenda.



Nope. For the record, the only fact I've stated 2x, was that you defend big tax on various things, the rest was me questioning and voicing possble reason/motivation behind it. I've never before met anyone liking extra taxes so much .



Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Yes how many vapers here gave us the "facebook facts" that all this is driven by big tobacco and big pharma? With no proof, just facebook conspiracy theories?



No idea about facebook (one of the few people not going there) , but if media is splling straight out lies about vaping on a daily basis, what is so wrong with voicing the theories about where is all the wind coming from? " If it stinks like a big pharma and is corrupted like a big pharma, very probably is the big pharma." 
If you are waiting for the proof of it, you'll probably never get one that is the court worthy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (4/10/19)

alex1501 said:


> Nope. For the record, the only fact I've stated 2x, was that you defend big tax on various things, the rest was me questioning and voicing possble reason/motivation behind it. I've never before met anyone liking extra taxes so much .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its not about liking taxes, its pure economics. How much money does it cost the state the uphold/maintain all our roads? How much does claims against the road accident fund cost the state? Accidents causing extra burden on state hospitals? This is just a portion there are many other costs/burdens just from roads, accidents, cars etc. So where must this money come from? Taxes fuel levies etc.
Whether these taxes/levies are allocated/ used correctly in our specific country, has nothing to do with the basic econimic principle.

As for your big pharma etc theories. Yes you may spread conspiracy theories as much you like. Its been done for decades and will contunue. Unfortunately as soon as intelligent debates start, most people laught at the conspiracy theorists. @RichJB gave facts here. So that sort of eliminated tobacco companies from the conspiracy theories. Now if you use some logic, if big pharma is behind these vape propaganda, why would they not rather use their money etc. to presure for example polititians in the US to apply less pressure on tobacco, so tobacco sales would increase and thus the later need for their products? Surely if your conspiracy theories that big pharma want people to smoke and get ill, are true, its much easier to pressure politians to lower taxes on ciggies, lower legal age, easier advertising etc etc? Than to target a small market like vaping?
If you dont have the facts, some logic get get you a long way.

Big pharma was also mentioned in vaping bans in other countries like India etc. Now just a note, I have not done any reading/studies on this subject so just guessing here. India and other countries mentioned strikes me as a countries where the masses are poor like many african countries and the state also dont have money for great healthcare for the masses. Someone can correct me here if Im wrong.

Now these type of countries dont have the funds, people just get basic healthcare and if you really get ill you just going to die and no real money, top medicine, surgery etc will be spend on you. So why then would big pharma want to get involved in these countries? The masses will not get the option that the government will buy from these pharma companies to prolong the masses life's from smoking related illness?


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## Grand Guru (4/10/19)

Media is neutral you said?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hooked (4/10/19)

Grand Guru said:


> Media is neutral you said?




@Grand Guru I think you've posted this in the wrong thread? I never said anything about the media being neutral - in fact, there is only one post in this thread. Furthermore, the video which you posted, although very interesting, has nothing to do with the pending litigation. I'm sure you made a mistake. I often post in the wrong thread, especially when I have multiple threads open!
Perhaps @admin could lend a helping hand here and move your post elsewhere?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Grand Guru (4/10/19)

Yes @Hooked. Sorry, I did that after watching during a short vape break 

This was the intended thread!
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/the-ongoing-media-war-on-e-cigs-and-vaping-industry.t62399/

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Hooked (4/10/19)

Grand Guru said:


> Yes @Hooked. Sorry, I did that after watching during a short vape break
> 
> This was the intended thread!
> https://www.ecigssa.co.za/the-ongoing-media-war-on-e-cigs-and-vaping-industry.t62399/





Please help [USERGROUP=3]@Admins[/USERGROUP]!

Reactions: Like 1


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## SparkySA (4/10/19)

And so the tables have turned

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## RichJB (4/10/19)

I'm honestly struggling to see the problem with that news story. It seems that the problem is that the news media are including vaping THC under the general description of "vaping". Is this inaccurate? If using battery power to heat a coil and vaporise THC liquid into gaseous form that can be inhaled doesn't qualify as "vaping", then what is it? Smoking?


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## RichJB (4/10/19)

Let's put it another way. If the US media carried news stories about how wonderful THC cartridges are and how much they are helping the health of people who need to take marijuana medicinally, would the vaping industry still want to distance itself from THC and insist that THC has nothing to do with "vaping"? Or would vaping be very quick to claim the glory and insist that yes, THC is absolutely a part of vaping?

It seems to me that the vaping industry is very quick to associate itself with everything good about vaping but immediately distances itself when anything bad happens because "that's not vaping, that's something else". Sorry but vaping can't be whatever suits the industry at the time. Either THC is part of vaping or it isn't. Which of the two is it?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Silver (4/10/19)

RichJB said:


> Let's put it another way. If the US media carried news stories about how wonderful THC cartridges are and how much they are helping the health of people who need to take marijuana medicinally, would the vaping industry still want to distance itself from THC and insist that THC has nothing to do with "vaping"? Or would vaping be very quick to claim the glory and insist that yes, THC is absolutely a part of vaping?
> 
> It seems to me that the vaping industry is very quick to associate itself with everything good about vaping but immediately distances itself when anything bad happens because "that's not vaping, that's something else". Sorry but vaping can't be whatever suits the industry at the time. Either THC is part of vaping or it isn't. Which of the two is it?



you make a very good point here @RichJB 
THC being part of vaping or not

But just from my own perspective THC is different to normal nicotine juice vaping in that its not there for helping to quit smoking. It serves other purposes. 

My own view on vaping is that it's basically a process that delivers nicotine with reduced harm. And it helps to quit stinkies.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## RichJB (4/10/19)

This is where the industry needs clarity. Take a look at this article for example. It is carried by vaping360.com and the headline is:



> *Best Pre-Filled THC Oil Cartridges 2019 *




The article appears under the general website category "Best vape cartridges 2019". So clearly, vaping360.com consider THC to be a legit sub-category of vaping. If not then why are they reviewing THC cartridges if it has nothing to do with vaping?

From the reviews, it appears that there are many reputable and good quality THC cartridges on the market. The cartridges seem to use exactly the same technology that our pods do: there is a battery, the cartridge slots onto the battery and is fired with a button, heating up a coil which vaporises the THC liquid, allowing it to be inhaled. If that isn't "vaping" then how do we describe it?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver (4/10/19)

Hooked said:


> Please help g0g!



That post of @Grand Guru and the following posts after it have been moved to this thread
Thanks for spotting that @Hooked and for being on the ball!

Reactions: Like 1 | Thanks 1


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## Hooked (4/10/19)

RichJB said:


> I'm honestly struggling to see the problem with that news story. It seems that the problem is that the news media are including vaping THC under the general description of "vaping". Is this inaccurate? If using battery power to heat a coil and vaporise THC liquid into gaseous form that can be inhaled doesn't qualify as "vaping", then what is it? Smoking?



My opinion is that it is indeed vaping and I think the problem has arisen from the very first reports of the deaths,* before *it was known *what* the victims had vaped. Right at the beginning the media was not at fault for reporting "vaping deaths" - that's all that was known at that time.

Unfortunately, they continue to associate vaping with their sensational headines. They should not be using the word "vaping" at all. They could, for example, easily write, "Blackmarket THC causes another death". But - how can they when some of the victims are not saying that they vaped THC? 

What is needed and is unlikely to happen, is for the media to start publishing articles which makes it perfectly clear that the deaths are not related to e-liquid. But - are they sure that it is not? Are we sure that it is not? Perhaps some of the victims are telling the truth when they say they vaped e-liquid. But dig further and one will probably find that it was bought on the street and not from a reputable vape shop.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Silver (4/10/19)

Hooked said:


> My opinion is that it is indeed vaping and I think the problem has arisen from the very first reports of the deaths,* before *it was known *what* the victims had vaped. Right at the beginning the media was not at fault for reporting "vaping deaths" - that's all that was known at that time.
> 
> Unfortunately, they continue to associate vaping with their sensational headines. They should not be using the word "vaping" at all. They could, for example, easily write, "Blackmarket THC causes another death". But - how can they when some of the victims are not saying that they vaped THC?
> 
> What is needed and is unlikely to happen, is for the media to start publishing articles which makes it perfectly clear that the deaths are not related to e-liquid. But - are they sure that it is not? Are we sure that it is not? Perhaps some of the victims are telling the truth when they say they vaped e-liquid. But dig further and one will probably find that it was bought on the street and not from a reputable vape shop.



I hear you @Hooked and you are correct because we don't know all the details about each person who landed up in hospital and exactly what they vaped.

But I would find it hard to believe that several deaths would happen from normal nicotine e-liquid if it was made properly. Reason is that there are millions of people that have been vaping globally and we have not heard of such tragedies in years.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## RichJB (4/10/19)

Well, this guy claims he bought nothing off the street, everything was from dispensaries. So even the vaping community's insistence that it's all black market THC carts seems at issue.

I can't blame the medical community for being very cautious about this. If patients are telling them they only vaped nic e-juice, they have to be wary of giving nic e-juice the all-clear, even if they suspect it's all THC. If it does turn out that there is just one batch of bad nic e-juice from one manufacturer, and the medical community has given juice the all-clear, and somebody then does get ill from it, the medical community is in a world of hurt. And doubly so if patients were telling them it was e-juice and not THC.

I also can't really blame the media in this specific case. I don't think they're fussed about the difference between e-juice and THC, it's all just vaping for them. Dave from Dash Vapes is furious that "the headlines try to put the blame on nicotine juice". I don't see that at all, the headline says "Amarillo man hospitalised for vaping". That isn't blaming nic juice, not if one includes THC under "vaping". It's just being non-specific, the headline could mean either THC or nic.

At least the news clip also interviewed the vape shop owner to get his side of the story, which is a lot more than many other news items do. So it's not the most egregiously unbalanced reporting I've seen, far from it.

Finally, I'm a bit suspicious about the patient himself. He says now - after he's received death threats - that he's very specific about distinguishing between "vaping" and "THC". But if that's the case, why did he allow his daughter to write "vaping kills" on the sign? Why didn't he tell her to change it to "THC kills"? I'm not convinced he's upset that the media misrepresented him. I think it's more a case that he's fearful of the death threats he's received. So now he's come forward to try and get the social media crazies off his back.

On that note, did Dave from Dash Vapes think it was a good idea to upload a video in which it is revealed that vapers are sending death threats to people who criticise their hobby? Does he think this is good PR and a good look for the vaping community?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Willyza (5/10/19)

Here, the channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk0Mdy5QPPXsNHcA0t00Qpw

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## alex1501 (5/10/19)

18':20"
“You call yourself a converted conservative and a reformed Marxist. Are you a conspiracy theorist?”

Reactions: Like 1


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## SparkySA (5/10/19)

Okey guys let's calm down for a second. 

Okey the term vaporizing defines something that is heated to the point that vapor is produced correct? 

Now if the above statement is correct the following stuff also falls under that as well

Crack
Meth 
Smoke machines 
Nebulizers
Humidifiers 
Kettle 

Now Okey if someone uses a car to drive to work or commit a crime do we have to stop driving because the US ARGUMENT is driving is bad so lets ban cars because most of the crimes was with cars not bakkies.

This is nuts period it's just political and a money thing it's not even about vaping guys, it's about kick backs that's all

Reactions: Agree 3


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## CashKat88 (5/10/19)

It's all about the money















Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Reactions: Like 4


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## Jean claude Vaaldamme (5/10/19)

SparkySA said:


> Okey guys let's calm down for a second.
> 
> Okey the term vaporizing defines something that is heated to the point that vapor is produced correct?
> 
> ...


Nubilizers, humidifiers dont use heat?


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## Hooked (5/10/19)

Willyza said:


> Here the channel
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk0Mdy5QPPXsNHcA0t00Qpw




Very interesting, thanks for posting @Willyza!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Hooked (5/10/19)

alex1501 said:


> 18':20"
> “You call yourself a converted conservative and a reformed Marxist. Are you a conspiracy theorist?”



@alex1501 I loved her sharp reply!

Reactions: Like 1


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## SparkySA (5/10/19)

Jean claude Vaaldamme said:


> Nubilizers, humidifiers dont use heat?



Using it to drive the point home, I know nebulizers use ultrasonic generators to atomize the medicine, but it's vapour the same as the media calling vaping "smoking"

Reactions: Agree 2


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## RenaldoRheeder (7/10/19)

I don't think we can steer away from the fact that the consumption of the content of the contaminated THC cartridges is in fact vaping. We might not want to be associated with it - like not wanting to talk about your proverbial brother in jail, but he remains your brother.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Willyza (8/10/19)

I think this Vid is almost correct ...........

Reactions: Like 4


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## SparkySA (10/10/19)

US in a nutshel

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Hooked (10/10/19)

SparkySA said:


> View attachment 179983
> US in a nutshel



The USA is ridiculous. One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry by its antics.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## alex1501 (10/10/19)

Hooked said:


> The USA is ridiculous. One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry by its antics.



Maybe this can help solve that dilemma:


Maybe not.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## Resistance (14/7/21)

Really?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Silver (14/7/21)

Thanks @Resistance 

I thought the video was good and he made a lot of sense

Bottom line

Make sure there is no Vitamin E Acetate or THC in your juice. These harm the lungs and make you sick
It’s best not to smoke or vape
if you have to choose between vaping and smoking, choose vaping because it causes less harm

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Resistance (14/7/21)

Silver said:


> Thanks @Resistance
> 
> I thought the video was good and he made a lot of sense
> 
> ...


Well I hate the fact that he includes vaping anything and vaping ejuice and then halfway through focussing on vitamin E and other stuff.
He also admits not having enough info on ejuice vapers so I don't get that he includes all vapers in the same category.
I already don't like to be classified as a smoker.
And then the evali issue just gets to me. Many vapers on this forum has over 10years vaping stripes on the lapel and the rest of us has just a few and nothing happened to any of us. 
I think his heart is in the right place he just need to figure where he's head needs to be.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Silver (18/7/21)

Resistance said:


> Well I hate the fact that he includes vaping anything and vaping ejuice and then halfway through focussing on vitamin E and other stuff.
> He also admits not having enough info on ejuice vapers so I don't get that he includes all vapers in the same category.
> I already don't like to be classified as a smoker.
> And then the evali issue just gets to me. Many vapers on this forum has over 10years vaping stripes on the lapel and the rest of us has just a few and nothing happened to any of us.
> I think his heart is in the right place he just need to figure where he's head needs to be.



I hear you @Resistance

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Resistance (21/7/21)

Quoted post.
"I burnt in the subtitles in English of the results of a comparison study of Traditional cigarettes, IQOS and PVs, thise results have been evaluated by six famous professors and Cancer centers directors

The professors in this interview are:
Prof. Umberto Tirelli: Director of Cancer Center Clinic TMG
Doct. Carlo Cipolla: Director of Cardiology and IEO European Institute of Oncology
Prof. Fabio Beatrice: Director of S. Giovanni Bosco Anti-smoking Center
Prof. Lamberto Manzoli: Epidemiologist - Scientific committee Lilt
Prof. Giacomo Mangiaracina: Preventive Medicine and Public Health
Prof. Giovanni Tazzioli - Unimore General Surgery.

That study was commissioned by Lega Italiana per la Lotta contro i Tumori - Prevenire è Vivere (lilt.it) Italian Cancer Fight society, so it’s not sponsored by BT or BP.

It’s not a long video, but the STATEMENT they made is quite strong!"

Subtitles credits goes to @Iv3shf from VC.and this link.
https://www.lilt.it/

Reactions: Like 2


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## Resistance (21/7/21)

Something a little different, I hope you enjoy watching.

Reactions: Like 2


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