10 times more cancerous than tobacco

Danny said:
After reading again and looking at the numbers the studies seem valid. The review certainly was edited by dr farsalino but I have to say I find the interaction there to be concerning. In a sense he does risk becoming just as badly biased as the anti ecig advocates, but that's irrelevant to this really.

Looking at the study it is actually a push for better regulation of manufacture than a condeming, significant health concern. For all of the brands tested more individual units produced low levels (safer) of carbonyls, quite a few of them had a high number of tested units that produced unacceptably high amounts of carbonyls and the reason why actually becomes very clear in the pictures. Juice contents will play a role, and research will make juice safer eventually but the big problem here seems to be burning juice and we all know burning anything and inhaling it is bad.

Units that produced high levels of bad stuff ended up with blackened coils etc much like when you burn your own juice, that to me at least is probably the result of poor quality standards in terms of battery regulation, wire quality and atomiser build quality. The juice in all the units from one manufacturer would most likely be from one source and be identical across all the devices (except maybe in flavour). The devices themselves not so much as they are subject to errors and variance in assembly. The original research paper almost touches on it in the discussion. To me it stands to reason that clearly the difference between the low and high devices is not only the output of carbonyls but also something about how the atomisers function, or with the power supply. Clearly not every ecig tested produced the carbonyls at all, so it is an important piece of research in terms of developing safer manufacturing standards, and if it could do away with environmentally irresponsible cig a like devices good, big tobacco loves its cig a likes.

For us open device users with tanks and RDAs change and check your coils often enough to avoid gunking, avoid dry hits, if you use commercial coils buy from reputable sources and check the quality yourself by checking your dead coils for blackening and burning. So basically do everything you already do to enjoy vaping and I wouldnt panic at all. Vaping really needs the temp regulated devices they should be able to help improve safety a whole lot.
Click to expand...

Thanks, this write-up makes the research much easier to digest, and actually very interesting and useful :)
I absolutely hate how media sites tend to favour the clickbait type headlines - the sky is falling, again :-@
 
yeah ok, i seem to have missed some sections or misread. if you look at the second article link, they are basically just reposting the same article someone wrote.
channelnewsasia, timeslive, thestar, all the same article. maybe a slight variation in a line or two, but that's just some editor or journalist who couldnt bear to just copy and paste. now i read the article, and the report.
the article that has been reposted everywhere : after reading the article again, well and again, it comes down to these TBS guys, which i'm assuming is some other news station? so this article is reporting on what a news station said about a study some okes did. am i wrong here? did i miss something?
 
I would like to see a similar study with High voltage vs Low voltage and High ohm coils vs Sub ohm.

In the mean time, I will carry on vaping at 3v and 2,8ohm.
 
ET said:
yeah ok, i seem to have missed some sections or misread. if you look at the second article link, they are basically just reposting the same article someone wrote.
channelnewsasia, timeslive, thestar, all the same article. maybe a slight variation in a line or two, but that's just some editor or journalist who couldnt bear to just copy and paste. now i read the article, and the report.
the article that has been reposted everywhere : after reading the article again, well and again, it comes down to these TBS guys, which i'm assuming is some other news station? so this article is reporting on what a news station said about a study some okes did. am i wrong here? did i miss something?
Click to expand...

That very confusing explanation does pretty much sum it up. The links to articles: one links to an original research paper, the other to review/report which contains most of the findings without most of the methodology. Its interesting the dates on the research etc when compared to Dr Farsalinos own publications on his site. He mentions nothing about these findings in his most recent writing (dated after the release dates of the articles in question I think) which is quite supportive of e cigs and their possible merits, whilst being very critical of research to date. I think this is another example of the media abusing context. Sorry I shouldnt be so harsh when I could be wrong, maybe just a liberation of context to ensure the message got out there a few months after it was published.

One of my favorite lines in the articles is the discussion around higher voltages producing more carbonyls, up to 400 times more than a lower voltage. That with the burnt out atomiser pictures makes me want to scream. Yes if you burn something faster, hotter and with greater energy release typically you should get more combustion products out of it :banghead:.

I seriously doubt anyone pulling on one of those faulty carbonyl releasing cigalikes wouldve enjoyed the experience, dry hits, burnt juice as we all know really hurts, tastes bad etc. They didnt test device functioning, so were all of them functioning as they should? They didnt test if a person could inhale the bad stuff without realising they were actually no longer inhaling the vapour that they are used to, that for me is the biggest flaw. Not all of them produced bad stuff, some did, there is only a real risk to public health if the user of the product doesnt realise that some are not doing what theyre meant to.
 
And this is where it gets really fun:
http://meetingdocs.alachuacounty.us...2-10/b07d056e-af31-4b99-8bf1-69558c17cc2d.pdf

It says the same thing but slightly differently especially this part:
image.jpg
I'm sure I could sit here, search and find countless other contradictory papers :rain:. Which to believe? Thats a tough call to make, one of them is definitely dressed up better, comparitive data, classy journal, names all the manufacturers. I believe neither fully there are flaws in both, but the truth is probably somehwere between the two. For now I will take solace in the fact not a single coil of mine is burnt or black looking, and my wick is pristine.
 
@Danny I really admire your ability to comprehend these journal articles, decipher them - and then explain what's going on.
Thank you sir!
 
Dr Farsalinos replied to my question

I am not entirely happy with his answer (for the sake of vaping), but I do see his point.

Here is a copy of my question and his answer:

  • Hi Doctor

    I read recently a piece of research done in Japan (revised October 2014). It is titled "Carbonyl Compounds Generated from Electronic Cigarettes" http://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/11/11/11192/pdf

    You are cited as the external editor

    The research says if I understand it correctly that some e-cigs produce a lot more carcinogens that smoking. But the brands and liquids are not disclosed.

    Our vaping community in South Africa is worried about this research - especially since your name is on it.

    Do you have anything to add or any words of encouragement?

    Kind Regards



  • Konstantinos Farsalinos
    The author talks about carbonyls. Formaldehyde and acetaldehyde. 2 of the 5000 chemicals present in tobacco. So, even if e-cigarettes have similar formaldehyde and acetaldehyde with tobacco, they have 4950 less chemicals!!
 
Nevertheless, it is positive that he responded...
 
Silver said:
Dr Farsalinos replied to my question

I am not entirely happy with his answer (for the sake of vaping), but I do see his point.

Here is a copy of my question and his answer:

  • Hi Doctor

    I read recently a piece of research done in Japan (revised October 2014). It is titled "Carbonyl Compounds Generated from Electronic Cigarettes" http://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/11/11/11192/pdf

    You are cited as the external editor

    The research says if I understand it correctly that some e-cigs produce a lot more carcinogens that smoking. But the brands and liquids are not disclosed.

    Our vaping community in South Africa is worried about this research - especially since your name is on it.

    Do you have anything to add or any words of encouragement?

    Kind Regards



  • Konstantinos Farsalinos
    The author talks about carbonyls. Formaldehyde and acetaldehyde. 2 of the 5000 chemicals present in tobacco. So, even if e-cigarettes have similar formaldehyde and acetaldehyde with tobacco, they have 4950 less chemicals!!
Click to expand...

for him this question is probably the same as someone asking @Derick about diacetyl :--P
 
ET said:
for him this question is probably the same as someone asking @Derick about diacetyl :--P
Click to expand...
Ha!

Yes, yes I know I can get a bit... hot under the collar when these posts about Diacetyl pop up and I apologize if I came across a bit... aggressive in my opinions.

I've have since dropped my caffeine intake and started vaping chamomile tea (not really, please don't vape tea) :wasntme:
 
jYIJ0yL.png

I posted the screenshot above because his site is currently down.
 
Last edited:
Silver said:
On a totally separate note, I saw this video on Dr Farsalinos' FB page where he was interviewed on Greek TV
Unfortunately it is in Greek. Would have loved to know what he said in essence
Its only about 4 minutes - maybe our @Yiannaki or @paulph201 would care to listen and give us a basic overview of what was said.
Click to expand...

So I just sat down to watch this :p

Nothing particularly new being discussed here.

The host opens up by asking him if e cigs are a way to quit smoking or just a new form of it

He replies by saying that e cigs are primarily picked up by smokers who want to continue enjoying the sensation of smoking but with less harm.

The host then brings up the topic of the potential harm of e cigs.

Dr Farsalinos informs her that e cigs do not contain many the harmful toxins found in traditional cigarettes and hence the are a viable alternative. He also points out that almost everything we consume on a daily basis can harm us. E cigs according to him are a better alternative to smoking and therefore a positive thing for someone moving from traditional cigarettes to e cigs.

The host questions this by stating that e cigs are a new phenomenon and not enough testing has been done. She is concerned about the possible long term effects they could have.

Dr Farsalinos responds by saying that enough testing has been done to prove that e cigs are most certainly a safer alternative to smoking and that studies will continue over time to see what will occur over the long term. But he can say with certainty that e cigs are far less harmful than traditional ones.

The random bit at the end of the video is a skit describing how eggplant was found to contain nicotine. Lol
 
I was totally enraged when I found the scientific article and saw how the media had mangled the information. I have other publications from reputable journals indicating that the carbonyl compounds are way less than analogues. Also the medical cases used to support negative effects of e cigs are on people have numerous underlying issues.
I enjoyed this thread and we'll done to all those searching for the truth. Let me know if anyone wants to read the publications and ill gladly send them to you
 
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