Are cheap poor quality juices KILLING the Vape Industry?

[Quintusson]

Look, though I quoted a specific retailer above, I do not believe cheap juices are ruining the market. There is a place for all kinds in our market, same as you will get cheap TV's and more expensive ones. Hisense TV's are cheap, but the quality is still quite good whereas the likes of Samsung is more expensive for basically the same. Both still sell.

I am taking a swing at the retailer quoted above again since people like that, in my humble opinion, are taking chances and it's not even budget pricing. So here you have juices being sold for more than premium of which the perceived quality is less than budget - I say perceived since they are offering things like a 3mg, 30ml 'Bavarian Cream' juice for R250. Seriously? Bavarian Cream is an additive, not a juice! But I am going slightly off topic now. *reminder: breathe in, breathe out*

 

[NecroticAngel]

Just a little fight on behalf of the DIY sellers out there (I am not one of them, but I want people to realise that its not as chap as you think) And no Im not talking about the Ftards @ivc_mixer mentioned, that lot can go to hell.

Stickers: min quantity purchase 100 R173, shipping R90
Graphic Design for sticker: R800
Website design and development at the lowest rate I can imagine for an ecommere: R4500
Yearly Hosting for website: R1600
5 concentrates at R45 each (erring on the side of more expensive like MB): R225
Bottle: R9
PG VG NIC 3mg: lets call it R7

Time and marketing not accounted for, neither is all the cost of creating the perfect recipe and all the pg vg nic and flavorants down the drain whilst creating it. Not counting the cost of phonecalls to designers and developers and printers etc, and remember this is before you even approach a vape shop. I have no idea of the sterile equipment that is now required under law, and if it is lets toss in a R3k for that though thats the price of a single magnetic stirrer, lets just be cautiosly optimistic.

This is also assuming you only bought 5 concentrates, not 140 of them like myself and then managed to make something worth selling off the 5 you have, should you go the 140 route, and lets call it R25 per bottle so 140 - 5 above = 135 * 25 = R3 375

So to start up this business:

With only 5 concentrates: R7404

With ISO standard equipment at a thumbsuck: R10 404

With 140 concentrates: R13 779

Thats to sell ONE juice online, as a sole proprietor and having no staff for things like accounting tax etc.

Only reason I write all of this is I DIY myself, and I am still happy to pay a premium price on juice because I understand all this! Also have you ever actually smoked any of the juices from a china shop? You wont again. My worst DIY is better than their best knock off. SO I dont believe cheap juices are killing the market, like @ivc_mixer says, theres room out there for everyone!

 

[Feliks Karp]

Just a little fight on behalf of the DIY sellers out there (I am not one of them, but I want people to realise that its not as chap as you think) And no Im not talking about the Ftards @ivc_mixer mentioned, that lot can go to hell.

Stickers: min quantity purchase 100 R173, shipping R90
Graphic Design for sticker: R800
Website design and development at the lowest rate I can imagine for an ecommere: R4500
Yearly Hosting for website: R1600
5 concentrates at R45 each (erring on the side of more expensive like MB): R225
Bottle: R9
PG VG NIC 3mg: lets call it R7

Time and marketing not accounted for, neither is all the cost of creating the perfect recipe and all the pg vg nic and flavorants down the drain whilst creating it. Not counting the cost of phonecalls to designers and developers and printers etc, and remember this is before you even approach a vape shop. I have no idea of the sterile equipment that is now required under law, and if it is lets toss in a R3k for that though thats the price of a single magnetic stirrer, lets just be cautiosly optimistic.

This is also assuming you only bought 5 concentrates, not 140 of them like myself and then managed to make something worth selling off the 5 you have, should you go the 140 route, and lets call it R25 per bottle so 140 - 5 above = 135 * 25 = R3 375

So to start up this business:

With only 5 concentrates: R7404

With ISO standard equipment at a thumbsuck: R10 404

With 140 concentrates: R13 779

Thats to sell ONE juice online, as a sole proprietor and having no staff for things like accounting tax etc.

Only reason I write all of this is I DIY myself, and I am still happy to pay a premium price on juice because I understand all this! Also have you ever actually smoked any of the juices from a china shop? You wont again. My worst DIY is better than their best knock off. SO I dont believe cheap juices are killing the market, like @ivc_mixer says, theres room out there for everyone!

R13000 is actually super cheap to start a business off, I think your estimate is fair but I think more of that start up money would go towards marketing than manufacturing, if you do make bulk you will buy bulk bases and flavours which will be way cheaper. It would be silly to experiment with concentrates while trying to start your business off. Same with the bottles, no way you will pay R9 when buying bulk. Most people will simply rip a website theme (they easy to torrent) and if you can licence graphic stuff off of fiverr/IG/deviant very cheaply.

 

[Chickenstrip]

Are cheap poor quality cars destroying the car industry?

Are cheap poor quality meats destroying the meat industry?

Are cheap poor quality Chinese television destroying the TV industry?

Are cheap poor quality anything destroying any industry?

No, I don't believe so.

 

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

Quality is difficult to define as we can see from the discussions above.
Taste is pretty much self determined.
"Health" issues are pretty much a red herring until we have evidence that a particular juice (cheap or expensive) has made anyone ill.

Cheap juice, whether tasty or not, keeps other vendors honest. To some extent the market dictates. If the most expensive brand makes the "best" juice people may be prepared to pay the price.

 

[stevie g]

The only thing poor quality juices are killing is their own brand.

 

[Spyker41771]

I think cheap juices is good in their own right, poor quality juices not so much, some months i cant afford the top of the range juices then i need to buy cheaper juices.

Think there a lot of people that smoked cheaper brand of smokes like yes and chicago and those brands that wont be able to move to vaping if it wasn't for the cheaper brand vape juices ..

 

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

What is a poor quality juice ?

Do they use non USP or BP Veg G or Pg? Do they use bad nic ? Do they use concentrates which are of poor quality ? If any of these are shown to be the case I would agree that perhaps they could be called poor quality juices. If not then what is a poor quality juice?

If they taste bad are they poor quality juices ? I don't think so. There are several "premium"juices which taste terrible to me. No-one agrees that juice X is the best and Y is the worst tasting juice. Some cheap juices taste great.

Can we agree on what a poor quality juice is so that we all understand the term?
.

 

[fbb1964]

Too weak flavour diluted perhaps? I've seen quite a few reviews where the % concentrate added to vgpg created more like weak catpiss than the flavour it was suppose to be. Or cutting more volume by diluting from an original strong brand to sell lotsa rubbish cheap. Like the coke dealers do no pun intended..

 

[Hooked]

For the most part, we don't have a problem with poor quality local South African juice. I've vaped a lot of juice, both local and imported and I honestly can not generalise by saying that the one is better than the other.

 

[Timwis]

I don't think the vape industry needs to be self-regulating, as @SergeiGrey suggested. We vapers need to be self-regulating and take responsibility for ourselves.

It's easy to find out which are the well-known local juice brands - just go on to FB and you'll be overwhelmed by the ads. So if a vaper buys a brand that isn't well-known, it's a chance he takes. And if he wants to take that chance simply based on price, that is his decision. We do not have to become a nanny state simply to "protect" someone who may not be able to afford a more expensive juice.

There are more than enough regulations in life and the vaping industry will no doubt become regulated in one or another in the future.
However, to insist on quality of all juice isn't feasible. Firstly, how does one determine quality? Is the regulatory body going to tell the juice makers which concentrates / nicotine they must use? And how would the quality of these be determined in the first place?

Secondly, even if something is defined as inferior quality, once again, it is the consumer's choice.

IF a particular brand of juice does indeed make someone sick, again suggested by @SergeiGrey, then that does indeed need to be investigated. Has anyone ever heard of a "cheap" juice making someone sick? If it had, we would have heard about it by now, either on this forum or any other, or on one of the other social media platforms.

Leave well alone. Respect the fact that some people will buy the cheapest juice that is available out of financial necessity - just as they would with any other commodity.

It won't kill them - and it won't kill the vape industry either.

I don't think the vape industry needs to be self-regulating

The more i read this the more i disagree to the point i disagree 100%. History has proved that anything that isn't regulated is open to attack which is the problem the vape industry suffers from in a big way in fact we are on the cusp of not just flavour bans but possibly complete vaping bans in the US and if that happens many countries will follow like sheep and this was predicted because of lack of regulation and was the reason the TPD came into effect in Europe. Vaping is in the best shape in Europe especially the UK and that's down to TPD regulations, before it we were heading in the same direction as the US is now!

 

[Timwis]

The more i read this the more i disagree to the point i disagree 100%. History has proved that anything that isn't regulated is open to attack which is the problem the vape industry suffers from in a big way in fact we are on the cusp of not just flavour bans but possibly complete vaping bans in the US and if that happens many countries will follow like sheep and this was predicted because of lack of regulation and was the reason the TPD came into effect in Europe. Vaping is in the best shape in Europe especially the UK and that's down to TPD regulations, before it we were heading in the same direction as the US is now!

 

[Timwis]

The more i read this the more i disagree to the point i disagree 100%. History has proved that anything that isn't regulated is open to attack which is the problem the vape industry suffers from in a big way in fact we are on the cusp of not just flavour bans but possibly complete vaping bans in the US and if that happens many countries will follow like sheep and this was predicted because of lack of regulation and was the reason the TPD came into effect in Europe. Vaping is in the best shape in Europe especially the UK and that's down to TPD regulations, before it we were heading in the same direction as the US is now!

Mind i agree with the statement if @Hooked meant by it we need regulation by Governments rather then self regulation that holds no bite or authority and will only end in failure after all self regulation is what we have had and it has led the industry to the brink in many countries!

 

[DavyH]

Mind i agree with the statement if @Hooked meant by it we need regulation by Governments rather then self regulation that holds no bite or authority and will only end in failure after all self regulation is what we have had and it has led the industry to the brink in many countries!

Fair point, but competent self-regulation should give governments a good starting point to codify a responsible industry exemplar. It worked for tattooing where the industry basically set the standards that are now enforced.

 

[Timwis]

Fair point, but competent self-regulation should give governments a good starting point to codify a responsible industry exemplar. It worked for tattooing where the industry basically set the standards that are now enforced.

But vaping have had years to get it right in that regard and if anything any self regulation to keep us safe and have good standards hasn't been driven by vaping product manufacturers but by vapers themselves through tools like forums etc holding manufacturers to account!

 

[DavyH]

But vaping have had years to get it right in that regard and if anything any self regulation to keep us safe and have good standards hasn't been driven by vaping product manufacturers but by vapers themselves through tools like forums etc holding manufacturers to account!

Even better! Add the support of recognized professionals and you would expect sensible regulation to be a slam dunk. Unfortunately this is a country where sensible regulations are not exactly common.

 

[Timwis]

Even better! Add the support of recognized professionals and you would expect sensible regulation to be a slam dunk. Unfortunately this is a country where sensible regulations are not exactly common.

But it's a world issue regarding vaping not just South Africa with the only exception where vaping is not under threat being where there is regulation from outside the industry! Look at the UK we even have vape shops starting to open inside Hospitals that's what regulation has brought, before the TPD it was very different and vaping was under threat. It's not my opinion it's fact based, independent regulation has always been a good thing overall even if it includes certain unpopular measures!

 

[DavyH]

But it's a world issue regarding vaping not just South Africa with the only exception where vaping is not under threat being where there is regulation from outside the industry! Look at the UK we even have vape shops starting to open inside Hospitals that's what regulation has brought, before the TPD it was very different and vaping was under threat. It's not my opinion it's fact based, independent regulation has always been a good thing overall even if it includes certain unpopular measures!

I’m not disagreeing with you. It’s just that the UK has tended (some evidence to the contrary!) to follow a common sense-based path in public health, whereas our bureaucracy has mired itself in ineptitude, power plays, rank stupidity and corruption. However bad the SA government appears from the outside, the reality is far worse.

 

[Timwis]

I’m not disagreeing with you. It’s just that the UK has tended (some evidence to the contrary!) to follow a common sense-based path in public health, whereas our bureaucracy has mired itself in ineptitude, power plays, rank stupidity and corruption. However bad the SA government appears from the outside, the reality is far worse.

I have one thing to say mate "HufflePuff" lol

 

[fbb1964]

Ditto here in AU big pharma with nicotine patches and big tobacco for smokes have the politicians and media in their deep pockets. Follow the $$s down the rabbit hole! Who benefits in the end? We're in for a serious fight here. It's one thing both the broederbonders and cancer have taught us well

 

[Cognet-Vapour]

Besides Vaping my own stuff I can understand why people buying cheap stuff in times when money is rough for many people.

the cheap cheap stuff in general like cheap normal juice lets so to speak yeah 120ml bottles under R200 its value for money but hurts the 60ml bottle guys.

personally its not about money its about quality and flavour i could never spend money on anything low or high and strugggle to vape it cause it taste bad.

 

[Cognet-Vapour]

@Hooked

Good Morning

I am planning/busy entering the market as a juice manufacturer, and I have done some research and this is an extension of that research. the Subject line is intended to spark debate.

The 4 issues listed were findings from interviewing Shop Owners, Vaporista's (Like a Barista but a person that works in the Vapestore... just made this up... thought you would like it) and Store Managers in and around Gauteng. The questionnaire was standard for all 20 stores. But the sample size is too small hence this post to see how I can expand the dataset quickly.

The 5 emerging issues are listed below.

1. The shops are struggling because people spend less!
2. People Vape less because it is no longer an enjoyable experience!
3. New cheap juices come in 120ml 2mg, as a knock-on effect because we vape less of a lower mg Nicotine we are slowly weaning ourselves of the nicotine!
4. Bigger bottles plus less vaping means fewer feet into Vape shops fewer feet means a lot less sales!
5. What if these poorer quality cheaper juices start making people sick, this is possible because they are trying to make it as cheap as possible. By design and choice using cheaper concentrates and cheaper nicotine!
6. Cheaper juices make vaping more accessible to teenagers because it is now affordable for them!

Point 5 is a controversial one but that is a question that came to my mind NOT a finding, so I included it. The reason for including it is that I buy concentrate and nicotine at wholesale and I can honestly say that I don't know how they can put a 120ml 2mg flavour with labels and packaging in a store with a retail price of R150. Stores are looking for a minimum of 40% - 70% margin on a bottle.

Which indicates that wholesale price is R60-R80? It raises a question in my mind? If you apply first principles thinking and break down the cost. Bottle, Label, Packaging, base liquid, concentrate, supply chain, distribution. Where do they compromise and is it a safe compromise?

I would like to highlight that these issues are more prevalent in smaller mom's & pop's stores. But once again inconclusive sample size too small and not demographically spread. I can confirm that the stores are struggling, fewer feet, fewer sales, lower ticket prices, less revenue, and escalating rent.

The objective of my research is:

1. Sell in Vapestores?
2. Sell online "ONLY" and pass the supply chain and retail space cost savings to consumers? Unfortunately, it can't be both.
3. Brand positioning?
4. Brand promise?
5. Pricing and bottle size (R.vs 60/120ml)

I want to thank everyone for sharing their views and opinions. It is giving me an invaluable perspective.

For me, this post and thread is NOT about BEING RIGHT but it is definitely about GETTING IT RIGHT.

Thank you

was on the same boat. My Price Plan is R160 worked it out to profitable especially as a start for 60ml. run specials R120 etc

cost price am not discussing that yet (have to wait after covid see if my MF price changed since last quoted).

1 sell in vape stores yes Im going to do that eitherway.
2 sell online yes i have a commerce skill and intend on using it.
3 brand positioning.. everywhere i can where i am wanted. Planning on international too got the costs for UAE (crazy) and looking around for USA and EU got plans drawn out first see the local market to make the bucks first i dont mind blowing 100k on an investment if i have 100k to make said investment.
4. brand promise Flavor strong flavor thats my thing i want to vape a grape i must taste it no nonsense and i believe ive achieved this.
5. got it down but keeping what i said about price especially in this economy my brand isnt on the level of Gbom or TKO yet so i cannot expect this price point and maybe i wont ever rise it who knows.


lots of juice came and went lots of local juice i distaste compared to US juice but met a few guys and vaped some great local juices.
we all have preferences though and I love fruit i want to show off what i love.