Blck vapor and 25R batteries

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I think it's simply BLCK 'covering their butts', (a blanketing disclaimer of sorts) ;)
In their defence, we do use unprotected cells and run them on, (over?), their limits in some cases :facepalm:
 
Just got off the phone with them, and they gave me a similar answer. It is Samsung that has printed that on the label to cover their own asses. I smell the good ol' US of A all over this.

FDA or Mooch ? .... no brainer there huh. Mooch be the man fo sure.
 
It's basically because the manufacturer did not design the batteries for vaping and therefor don't want to be held liable should something go wrong. These 18650s are actually designed to go in sealed battery packs, we just found a better use for them ;)

You can always trust Mooch's recommendations on batteries.
 
I have 4 25R's that I have had since the Pico and Pico dual days. Those mods are still working, although looking a little worse for wear, and are easily 5-6 years old. The batteries, the same age. I use them regularly in my mechs and they still perform very well for my sessions. I can do a couple of hours on an evening and they still have not reached the fade stage. Great batteries for the purpose.

I came from spinners and RE5's onto the Pico and Kangertech pro tank 4 MTL tanks. Using an 18650 for a whole day was a joy.
upload_2020-10-6_10-14-26.jpegupload_2020-10-6_10-14-35.jpeg
 
I had the same issue when I purchased from a different vendor. I asked them and they said the exact same thing. Its Samsung covering their own but in case something goes wrong. I run them in my Noisy v1 and have no issues so far.
 
It's just manufacturers covering their rears with a disclaimer, as the Samsung 25Rs are highly rated and very popular in this industry.
Vaping has quickly become one of the larger consumer markets of batteries that is used in an application that they were not specifically designed for, and unfortunately also an application where the limits and boundaries are frequently overstepped with little or no regards to safety.

I think the first 18650s that had the Caution / Disclaimer printed on them was the 3000mAH LG HG2s, or chocs / turds as they are affectionally referred to by vapers.
 
Kuhlkatz said:
It's just manufacturers covering their rears with a disclaimer, as the Samsung 25Rs are highly rated and very popular in this industry.
Vaping has quickly become one of the larger consumer markets of batteries that is used in an application that they were not specifically designed for, and unfortunately also an application where the limits and boundaries are frequently overstepped with little or no regards to safety.

I think the first 18650s that had the Caution / Disclaimer printed on them was the 3000mAH LG HG2s, or chocs / turds as they are affectionally referred to by vapers.
Click to expand...

Is the 25R better than the 30Q?
 
Hooked said:
Is the 25R better than the 30Q?
Click to expand...

Hi @Hooked. Trick question?

Lol, I quickly tried looking what other devices you use in your coffee reviews, but most of them is done on the Ijust 3 for Freebase, or the Nord for Nic salts, so I am none the wiser (yet).
I'm just not sure which other devices you have in use at this stage and more importantly what power you generally vape at.

Based on Mooch's tests, the Samsung 30Q and Samsung 25Rs are both rated at 20A CDR, and performs similarly. The 30Q however, is a 3000mAH battery, while the 25R is a 2500mAH, so it has 500mAH extra life in the same package. There is also a small warning next to the 30Q's rating of 15A/20A, which indicates that the 30Q can be safely used at 20A ONLY if the battery temperature does not exceed the manufacturer's temperature rating of 75 degrees. If you exceed 75 degrees, it is safe at 15A CDR.
If anyone continues to vape while holding a mod that reaches 75 °C, they are either very brave or very stupid. I would vote for the latter, but would also hope that thermal cut-outs in regulated mods would not allow reaching that.

The 25R is an older battery - so older tech essentially - and also typically priced cheaper than the 30Q, which is likely why it is still a popular choice.
For extra longevity after a charge cycle, the 30Q would be the obvious choice. If your wallet tries to bite your hand when you attempt to open it, there is nothing wrong with the 25Rs.

If you had a choice between the LG HG2s and the Samsung 30Qs at the same price point, the tests favour the chocs as the winner.


Off topic, but just a note on personal experience. During lockdown I have retired 4 of my 30Qs after around 2 years of use. One of 2 singles getting charged at the same time killed 2 of my Nitecore i4 chargers in seperate charge sessions, and I was not going to risk my i8 to try and find the culprit either. Another from a married set went totally flat after not being used for about 2 months, so I gave it's partner the benefit of the doubt, allowing it to retire too.

Given that I vape at around 22-25W, I cannot see that they would have been overly stressed in a dual battery mod or in a single 18650 mod either.
I guess that working from home and chain vaping leads to increased charge cycling of frequently used sets, reducing the lifetime as well. The average lifetime of a Li-Ion battery is ~ 300-500 charge cycles.
 
Thanks for that. One thing I would like to add is that Mooch describes the 25 R as high drain and the 30Q as a high capacity. No problem with either in a regulated but I am sticking to the 25R for mechs.
 
Just took 2 vtc5's and checked the dates, both were manufactured in 2016, 1 in Jan the other in March. Both still reading 4.2 after being charged and rested for a day.
 
I use Samsung 30Q's in my Gen-S's, (which never go above 25W), and LG HG2's in my high current / high drain mods ... Certainly I'm very happy with both options, however as all my batteries are under 6 months old, (and all without "warnings / limitations"), I'm hardly a reference, however I'm taking a heads up on what you guys are using for future reference ;-)
 
Stranger said:
I just got some vape mail from Blck and I ordered a couple of 25R batteries. Clearly stamped on them is a warning saying , "Not for e cig or vape"

This has me wondering. Mooch, who is a highly respected member of the vape community rates these batteries highly

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/t...0-bench-test-results-a-great-20a-cell.685740/

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/t...-test-results-25r5-is-slightly-better.799799/
Click to expand...

None of the batteries we use are made for vaping. We just use it for that.
 
Kuhlkatz said:
Hi @Hooked. Trick question?

Lol, I quickly tried looking what other devices you use in your coffee reviews, but most of them is done on the Ijust 3 for Freebase, or the Nord for Nic salts, so I am none the wiser (yet).
I'm just not sure which other devices you have in use at this stage and more importantly what power you generally vape at.

Based on Mooch's tests, the Samsung 30Q and Samsung 25Rs are both rated at 20A CDR, and performs similarly. The 30Q however, is a 3000mAH battery, while the 25R is a 2500mAH, so it has 500mAH extra life in the same package. There is also a small warning next to the 30Q's rating of 15A/20A, which indicates that the 30Q can be safely used at 20A ONLY if the battery temperature does not exceed the manufacturer's temperature rating of 75 degrees. If you exceed 75 degrees, it is safe at 15A CDR.
If anyone continues to vape while holding a mod that reaches 75 °C, they are either very brave or very stupid. I would vote for the latter, but would also hope that thermal cut-outs in regulated mods would not allow reaching that.

The 25R is an older battery - so older tech essentially - and also typically priced cheaper than the 30Q, which is likely why it is still a popular choice.
For extra longevity after a charge cycle, the 30Q would be the obvious choice. If your wallet tries to bite your hand when you attempt to open it, there is nothing wrong with the 25Rs.

If you had a choice between the LG HG2s and the Samsung 30Qs at the same price point, the tests favour the chocs as the winner.

Off topic, but just a note on personal experience. During lockdown I have retired 4 of my 30Qs after around 2 years of use. One of 2 singles getting charged at the same time killed 2 of my Nitecore i4 chargers in seperate charge sessions, and I was not going to risk my i8 to try and find the culprit either. Another from a married set went totally flat after not being used for about 2 months, so I gave it's partner the benefit of the doubt, allowing it to retire too.

Given that I vape at around 22-25W, I cannot see that they would have been overly stressed in a dual battery mod or in a single 18650 mod either.
I guess that working from home and chain vaping leads to increased charge cycling of frequently used sets, reducing the lifetime as well. The average lifetime of a Li-Ion battery is ~ 300-500 charge cycles.
Click to expand...

@Kuhlkatz Nope not a trick question at all. You asked which mods I use.
Firstly, the iJust3 with which I vape coffees has an internal battery, so it's off the radar for our discussion.

The other mods which I use, and which take external batteries (and I've always used 30Q), are:
Vaporesso Armour - vaping at about 60W
Voopoo Drag X - vaping at 65W for bakery and 40W if fruit.
EDIT: Pico 25 at about 40W

Do I understand you correctly in that "the 25R is more poweful than the 30Q? I would think that 3000 is more poweful than 2500, yet you say, "the 25R is a 2500mAH, so it has 500mAH extra life in the same package"

EDIT: I've always used 30Q and I'm happy with it, but a friend of mine bought a Voopoo Drag X and for some odd reason she says she gets only 2 hours of vaping time with it, also using the 30Q at 65W - and she's using a new battery. When I use a new 30Q battery on the same mod, same wattage, I get almost an entire day before I need to recharge.
 
Last edited:
Hooked said:
@Kuhlkatz...
Do I understand you correctly in that "the 25R is more poweful than the 30Q? I would think that 3000 is more poweful than 2500, yet you say, "the 25R is a 2500mAH, so it has 500mAH extra life in the same package"

EDIT: I've always used 30Q and I'm happy with it, but a friend of mine bought a Voopoo Drag X and for some odd reason she says she gets only 2 hours of vaping time with it, also using the 30Q at 65W - and she's using a new battery. When I use a new 30Q battery on the same mod, same wattage, I get almost an entire day before I need to recharge.
Click to expand...

I thought I remembered a Pico in the mix somewhere ;)

Short answer: In terms of capacity, the 30Q is better. In terms of ability to provide a high current output, the 25R is better suited.

The 30Q is a 3000mAH battery, so has a larger capacity than the 25R, which is a 2500mAH battery. Vaping with either at the same power level, one should thus get a longer period of use out of the 30Q than you would from the 25R.
The 30Q is rated as a 15A max continuous discharge rate by the manufacturer, but Mooch tested it as a 20A max, hence the 15/20A rating and 75 degrees C warning. The 25R is rated at 20A max CDR with no ifs or buts. It just means that the 25R is more suited (and likely safer) to use with low resistance builds than the 30Q would be.

Assuming that you and your friend are both using Samsung 30Qs, I would expect similar vape times from both devices. What can affect vape times is the mod firmware version, puff duration, and of course how frequently you puff on the device. You can simply compare puff counts as the device does apparently support that. Chain vaping over a short period would easily account for the same vape duration of a 'normal' user spread out over a full day or longer.

I can also suggest that you swop batteries with her for a day to see if you also experience a reduced vape time, or whether her experience remains the same with a different battery or not. If your time is reduced too, the battery would be suspect. If her experience remains the same, it could be the mod or perhaps firmware version differences where it may cut off the battery at a higher level than expected.

Without pointing fingers or crying wolf, there are a lot of fake batteries in the market, where even some trusted vendors potentially can get burned and gets supplied an incorrect or rewrapped batch of batteries. Most (all?) vendors generally trust their suppliers and expect them to supply the genuine article, so will not get the batteries independently tested or verified by a third party before reselling them.

Another thing to keep in mind, especially with single battery mods, is that the current draw from the battery will increase as the voltage gets lower. At 65W with a 3.4 volt battery, which is near the normal 3.3v cut-off, you are close to the 20A CDR rating so may experience batteries becoming hotter than usual if you tend to chain vape taking long puffs. Calculated at a 95% efficiency rate, the current draw will be around 20.07A.
With the battery fully charged at 4.2v the current draw should be around 15.48A in a perfect world, and ~ 16.25A at 95% efficiency.
 
@Kuhlkatz

Man, you are good, great write up. Your explanation mirrors my experience with the 30Q's and 25R's and the VTC5's when using in any regulated mod. The 30Q's definitely last longer (I use juice ml used or tanks used) than the 25r's in my Pico dual, Puma's and Manto.

The big difference comes in when using a mech. The 25R's maintain the power level and then drop off sharply, the 30Q's have a gradual decline which you can pick up easily as you vape. The do also get hotter. Very noticeable on a mech with my Wasp Nano at anything under .4.

I get less time or tanks out of a 30Q than a 25R on a mech.

Where it becomes horribly confusing is that when we talk about mechs, we talk in amps. Regulated we talk in Watts.
 
Kuhlkatz said:
I thought I remembered a Pico in the mix somewhere ;)

Short answer: In terms of capacity, the 30Q is better. In terms of ability to provide a high current output, the 25R is better suited.

The 30Q is a 3000mAH battery, so has a larger capacity than the 25R, which is a 2500mAH battery. Vaping with either at the same power level, one should thus get a longer period of use out of the 30Q than you would from the 25R.
The 30Q is rated as a 15A max continuous discharge rate by the manufacturer, but Mooch tested it as a 20A max, hence the 15/20A rating and 75 degrees C warning. The 25R is rated at 20A max CDR with no ifs or buts. It just means that the 25R is more suited (and likely safer) to use with low resistance builds than the 30Q would be.

Assuming that you and your friend are both using Samsung 30Qs, I would expect similar vape times from both devices. What can affect vape times is the mod firmware version, puff duration, and of course how frequently you puff on the device. You can simply compare puff counts as the device does apparently support that. Chain vaping over a short period would easily account for the same vape duration of a 'normal' user spread out over a full day or longer.

I can also suggest that you swop batteries with her for a day to see if you also experience a reduced vape time, or whether her experience remains the same with a different battery or not. If your time is reduced too, the battery would be suspect. If her experience remains the same, it could be the mod or perhaps firmware version differences where it may cut off the battery at a higher level than expected.

Without pointing fingers or crying wolf, there are a lot of fake batteries in the market, where even some trusted vendors potentially can get burned and gets supplied an incorrect or rewrapped batch of batteries. Most (all?) vendors generally trust their suppliers and expect them to supply the genuine article, so will not get the batteries independently tested or verified by a third party before reselling them.

Another thing to keep in mind, especially with single battery mods, is that the current draw from the battery will increase as the voltage gets lower. At 65W with a 3.4 volt battery, which is near the normal 3.3v cut-off, you are close to the 20A CDR rating so may experience batteries becoming hotter than usual if you tend to chain vape taking long puffs. Calculated at a 95% efficiency rate, the current draw will be around 20.07A.
With the battery fully charged at 4.2v the current draw should be around 15.48A in a perfect world, and ~ 16.25A at 95% efficiency.
Click to expand...

Thank you ever so much @Kuhlkatz. I have, on a number of occasions, asked her to leave her mod, with her battery, with me for a day or two, so that I can vape with it and see for myself what is going on. Just by the way, we are both using batteries from the same batch which I bought, so IF hers is fake, then mine is too - yet I have no problems with mine.

I forgot to mention another variable. She charges her 30Q through another mod (an old Pico 75). i.e. she puts the battery in the Pico 75 then charges it via a USB cable. I charge my batteries with a Nitecore battery charger. I can't help wondering if somehow her batteries are not being fully charged, although apparently it shows fully charged when she then inserts the battery in the Drag X.

I've asked her to bring her mod to me with her fully charged battery, charged as she would do it. I want to put it into the Nitecore immediately before I even start using it. The Nitecore will show immediately if it still needs to be charged.

Regarding firmware, I'll investigate that, but I would assume that both her mod and mine have the same firmware versions. I bought mine soon after it came on to the market in SA and she bought hers about a week after that.
 
Hooked said:
Thank you ever so much @Kuhlkatz.I forgot to mention another variable. She charges her 30Q through another mod (an old Pico 75). i.e. she puts the battery in the Pico 75 then charges it via a USB cable. I charge my batteries with a Nitecore battery charger. I can't help wondering if somehow her batteries are not being fully charged, although apparently it shows fully charged when she then inserts the battery in the Drag X.
Click to expand...

@Hooked , charging in the Pico may very well be a factor too. I'm not sure how many 'spare' batteries you have available as part of your rotation, but if you can spare one of your 30Qs for a day, I'd suggest charging it for her to use as a loaner for the day.
Hopefully she is not too far away from you to try this route.

I'm not sure how the firmware version is displayed, but this is mentioned in the manual and some reviews:
  • Pressing up and down together enters the PUFF interface (keep fire pressed for 2 seconds to exit).
  • Clicking fire while in the puff interface shows chipset info.
They just don't specify if the 'chipset info' includes a version number for the firmware, but it's at least something you can compare between the 2 devices.
 
Kuhlkatz said:
@Hooked , charging in the Pico may very well be a factor too. I'm not sure how many 'spare' batteries you have available as part of your rotation, but if you can spare one of your 30Qs for a day, I'd suggest charging it for her to use as a loaner for the day.
Hopefully she is not too far away from you to try this route.

I'm not sure how the firmware version is displayed, but this is mentioned in the manual and some reviews:
  • Pressing up and down together enters the PUFF interface (keep fire pressed for 2 seconds to exit).
  • Clicking fire while in the puff interface shows chipset info.
They just don't specify if the 'chipset info' includes a version number for the firmware, but it's at least something you can compare between the 2 devices.
Click to expand...

I have plenty of spare batteries and she's not even 5 minutes away from me. But it's not only the battery that is the issue. Apparently the tank leaks a lot and the coils sometimes burn out after 15 minutes of vaping. There are too many things going on here and I want to see these things happening with my own eyes, which is why I want her to leave her mod with me for a day or two so that I can vape with it, as none of these things happens when I use the DragX. I know a few people who have a DragX and they are not experiencing these prolems, with except for the leaking. I've seen complaints about that on the Internet. Yet I have no leaking whatsoever - not even when I let the mod stand overnight without vaping. There isn't even any condensation. The whole scenario is just really strange.

She has a Pico 75 which she can use while I'm testing hers, or I've offered to lend her one of my mods and, if her battery is at fault, I have plenty of batteries, as I said.

Just waiting for her to bring her mod to me. Without it there is nothing that I can do. And when she does I'll compare the firmware versions - good suggestion, thanks!
 
@Kuhlkatz And we have lift-off! My friend bought a battery charger and her batteries are now operating at full steam! So you were right - the batteries were not being fully-charged in the Pico.
 
Hooked said:
@Kuhlkatz And we have lift-off! My friend bought a battery charger and her batteries are now operating at full steam! So you were right - the batteries were not being fully-charged in the Pico.
Click to expand...

Ah @Hooked , I am glad to hear that it was a simple solution in the end. External battery chargers are always the recommended way to charge your batteries.
It's OK to charge them in a mod if you are in a bind, but just as much as most of the circuitry in regulated mods focus on features for providing power to the coils and provide a fancy user interface, they also lack the same complexity in the simple charge circuits provided.
The only exclusion may be true DNA mods. They provide proper charge balancing for multi-cell arrangements, but usually only for fixed LiPo battery packs that can only be charged via the mod.

Feature rich chargers provide the same fancy user interfaces, but they are purpose built for focusing on maintaining batteries at optimum levels.
Most of the single-slot dedicated chargers unfortunately use the same simple single IC modules that is typically employed in mods.
 
Hooked said:
@Kuhlkatz And we have lift-off! My friend bought a battery charger and her batteries are now operating at full steam! So you were right - the batteries were not being fully-charged in the Pico.
Click to expand...

this is interesting, thanks @Hooked and @Kuhlkatz
I have a Pico and charge it in the mod because I don’t like opening and closing that little battery knob cover on the top. Don’t really notice anything strange but I guess I should try a fresh batt from the Nitecore to see the difference
 
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