Classifieds , flipping flippers and scammers

[Daniel]

I think it's time we address the elephant in the room ....

Noticed a LOT of new people on here , with their first thread , yup you guessed it a FOR SALE thread.
No Introduction , no posts nothing ....

I understand this is a public forum and hence anyone is free to join and we don't discriminate yadda yadda , but surely there can be some form of vetting or minimal post count implemented before being able to post in Classies ?
The argument comes in that "we need more members.." , surely you want members that actually contribute to this community and not just "drive-by" sellers/posters ?

Also , I did some quick stats , and wasn't amazed at who the top thread counts were in Classies.
Personally I think it's become a bit of a "boys club" where if you not in the club you out.... everyone boosts each other (which is fine) , but so called "flipping" by these members and we look the other way. Some may say flipping means selling the said item for more than RRP , I disagree. If you constantly sell "new" items at said RRP or sometimes just below , is that not considered flipping as well ? Like you were part of a GB or something (often get's discounts due to MQO) and a week later you flip your second item for a profit ? I'm all for making a quick buck but this has been overlooked far too long , what's good for the gander ....

Queue "Days of our Lives" theme music .......

 

[Silver]

Thanks for bringing this up @Daniel

The Admin and Mod team have discussed this issue at length over the years

We hear you

Lets see what the members think about this and it will be great to hear dofferent points of view.

 

[TheV]

Classified Post Count restriction: Personally I'm not a fan of this idea. I most probably ended up here because I wanted to sell something or buy something (that is how I end up on most forums actually). Restrictive criteria will keep away potential members that might just stick around. Even if the "drive-by" members don't stick around, at least the members on here will be able to benefit from a potential good deal. I don't really see much of an issue with this as long as a bit of common sense is applied to the sale (proceed with caution).

Classified Price discussion: Its a free market. I can ask whatever price I feel my item is worth. Depending on the difficulty and/or cost of acquiring the item, I might justify selling it above RRP. I'm not saying I agree with flipping, I'm just stating an argument that I can ask whatever price I want, I can justify it how I want ... and you in turn can disagree as much as you like and simply ignore my thread.
I know there are some silly prices for items on here. The 'Ignore Thread' button works absolute magic here. Got some repeat offenders that grind your gears? 'Ignore Member' is even better!

That is just my opinion though

 

[RainstormZA]

I thought you had to have a number of posts to enter classifieds - I had to have 50 before I could post something. Not that I needed to sell but wanted to buy but was told I had insufficient post count to reply...

What happened to that now?

 

[Daniel]

Classified Post Count restriction: Personally I'm not a fan of this idea. I most probably ended up here because I wanted to sell something or buy something (that is how I end up on most forums actually). Restrictive criteria will keep away potential members that might just stick around. Even if the "drive-by" members don't stick around, at least the members on here will be able to benefit from a potential good deal. I don't really see much of an issue with this as long as a bit of common sense is applied to the sale (proceed with caution).

Classified Price discussion: Its a free market. I can ask whatever price I feel my item is worth. Depending on the difficulty and/or cost of acquiring the item, I might justify selling it above RRP. I'm not saying I agree with flipping, I'm just stating an argument that I can ask whatever price I want, I can justify it how I want ... and you in turn can disagree as much as you like and simply ignore my thread.
I know there are some silly prices for items on here. The 'Ignore Thread' button works absolute magic here. Got some repeat offenders that grind your gears? 'Ignore Member' is even better!

That is just my opinion though

90% of the time thr drive-bys want to sell a SMOK or some shyte .... use FB for that IMO .....
but I get your point , it's like when South Africa decided to "open their borders" ...... all welcome

Free market doesn't mean it's fair , and it's up to us to keep those on the short and narrow. A lot of people don't have the knowledge of hardware etc and can be taken for a ride ..... but I guess it's a free for all .....
So by your argument I can sell my 2001 Hilux for R100k cause it's a "vintage model" ?
I recently had ahem "dealings" with a new forum member that left a real sour taste so maybe I'm a bit sensitive

 

[CharlieSierra]

I don't think it's unethical to order 2 items on a group buy and then selling the second item a few bucks under retail to recover some costs eg shipping

BUT .. what I hate to see is people buying 3/4 mods or rda's on a sale then selling it for retail price as new. Taking away the opportunity for someone else to get a deal by buying all the sale stock is .. imo bullshit.

For eg the vapeking sale , Vgod Elite Mechs were on sale for 600 and the very next day a guy sold around 6 Vgod Elite mechs (brand new) for R1100 each.

 

[TheV]

90% of the time thr drive-bys want to sell a SMOK or some shyte .... use FB for that IMO .....
but I get your point , it's like when South Africa decided to "open their borders" ...... all welcome

Free market doesn't mean it's fair , and it's up to us to keep those on the short and narrow. A lot of people don't have the knowledge of hardware etc and can be taken for a ride ..... but I guess it's a free for all .....
So by your argument I can sell my 2001 Hilux for R100k cause it's a "vintage model" ?
I recently had ahem "dealings" with a new forum member that left a real sour taste so maybe I'm a bit sensitive

You can put your Hilux up for R200k, R500k ... even R1m if you like. Whether it will sell at that price is a completely different story.
My point is just I don't have to be offended, bothered or disturbed by your clearly overpriced item. I can try make you a reasonable offer (which you can still decline) or I can (and this is the more likely outcome) just ignore it and move along.

"SMOK or some shyte" is also of use to someone if not for you. You get a lot of vapers that bought starting gear and end up giving up vaping. What is wrong with them wanting to get some money back when they decide its not for them. They would probably not want to be part of the community but someone here could still benefit from their gear.

I does sound like your "dealings" have frustrated you a bit and I can definitely understand that. I've had my share of WTF on here (and all over on other forums as well).
The best thing you can do is try and figure out how to make the best use of the platform that is provided for you with the least amount of stress and disturbance.
Personally I got so sick of the sales on here I've ignored the entire For Sale forum. The experience is much cleaner now. If I'm on the hunt for something I'll go looking for it.

 

[Dietz]

I think it's time we address the elephant in the room ....

Noticed a LOT of new people on here , with their first thread , yup you guessed it a FOR SALE thread.
No Introduction , no posts nothing ....

I understand this is a public forum and hence anyone is free to join and we don't discriminate yadda yadda , but surely there can be some form of vetting or minimal post count implemented before being able to post in Classies ?
The argument comes in that "we need more members.." , surely you want members that actually contribute to this community and not just "drive-by" sellers/posters ?

Also , I did some quick stats , and wasn't amazed at who the top thread counts were in Classies.
Personally I think it's become a bit of a "boys club" where if you not in the club you out.... everyone boosts each other (which is fine) , but so called "flipping" by these members and we look the other way. Some may say flipping means selling the said item for more than RRP , I disagree. If you constantly sell "new" items at said RRP or sometimes just below , is that not considered flipping as well ? Like you were part of a GB or something (often get's discounts due to MQO) and a week later you flip your second item for a profit ? I'm all for making a quick buck but this has been overlooked far too long , what's good for the gander ....

Queue "Days of our Lives" theme music .......

@Daniel I fully agree with you here and was thinking about this last week too, I think a post limit for new members is not so ridiculous, this is what they do on 2 or 3 other forums I have been on too. and they do this to "build Trust" between forum members and discourage these guys.
I also agree and have noticed what you mention in your last paragraph.

I just have simple rules when I buy from the Classifieds:
- Never buy from someone with no Profile Pic
- Must have at least 30 posts
- Read a few of the posts by that member to get a 'feel' for how they are

 

[jm10]

Ahh the good old SA mentality, save you breath @Daniel, you are just giving yourself stress because on every forum you get these people and you really cant ask the mods to step because the seller has “technically” not done anything wrong.

The 50 post rule worked pretty well on other forums.

I do see @Silver always asking people where they bought their “new” items from, so atleast he does try and poke to find holes in a sale.


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[Rob Fisher]

You may not notice but the Admin and Mod Team are often nuking classifieds that are obvious people trying to run their business and selling items without signing up as a supporting vendor. There are also a couple of members who have been banned from the classifieds.

As for flipping... it drives me out of my mind.

Looking after the forum is always a fine balance of Big Brother vs Freedom.

But I look forward member feedback...

 

[Room Fogger]

I have purchased a couple of things on the classified section, and passed up some opportunities. I think a minimum post level is maybe a good idea, but I suppose some guys may just post nonsense to make this up. I always check out what the pricing for new is, and then decide if I want to pay what is stated. I also check out the seller, so far it has worked.

Maybe an intro similar to the new members thread, I know there is something, can be expanded to inform newbies of the pros and cons of using the classifieds. Or a I agree tag that has to be accepted before you can use it that is only unlocked once you reach the minimum post level as part of your profile.

Viewpoints will always differ in an open market system, and it is up to the buyer to decide to pull the trigger, but I have seen instances where some stuff sells way above what I will pay for it. But that is my right to ignore such items, but some newbies on a high because of info overload my pay above market for stuff they can get new, but then it's their right and if you don't do your homework you go to the principals office ne.

 

[Zeki Hilmi]

I personally hate flippers. It takes advantage of people that a) does not know what it's worth and b) people that are desperate to fit in. It's ludicrous and daylight robbery. However unfortunately you can't tell someone they must not sell at the price they are selling for but you can remover their posts. Also I'm so shocked how high 2nd items are valued across the board in this country. In the UK it's like on average 50% less than the retail price.

 

[Rafique]

I find the optimistic icon fairly helpful when sellers post items for a price that is not reasonable it higher than what it actually is.

It lets other buyers know that the seller is hopeful in his price but it way above what people know the actual price to be

 

[Cor]

Theres a member on the forum that everyone likes and that shows a awesome image to everyone (i wont name and shame its not nice to do such a thing) but when i was really really eager to get a certain device he took me for a #@$ load of cash for a device that reselled not eaven a week later for anything from 1.5k to 1.8k(i was still verry noob about the more expensive mods and gear) and how the f%÷$# are you so creedy for money and to show new lanie gear that you do in a student who works 3diffrent jobs to keep things afloat and study just to fit in and look cool with your "epic" gear like wtf.

Get some self respect stop cheating others stop trying to make fast cash just to get the latest and greatest stop makeing up stupid reasons to get a fast sale just because you have epic gear does not male you a decent or nice person but what good you do to others and trying to help out any vaper in need or get a person of stinkies thats what matters.So to all flippers and people trying to cheat others grow up and get some dignity!!!!!!

(Rant ended sorry for my crappy spelling lol)

I said my peace .

 

[Philip Dunkley]

As I generally stay out of these discussions nowadays, I feel very strongly about a lot of issues on this one!! So I'll comment.....

Flipping sucks!!!! Simple. But, we have to seriously decide what flipping is. Selling a very hard to find mod second hand at RRP is definitively not flipping, its actually quite a decent deal because you are getting the opportunity to get a mod that otherwise you would have to wait for or pay way more for at the original selling price. Also, people also don't realize what the cost of these mods actually are, they look at the Dollar price, do a direct conversion and assume that is what the price is supposed to be, not taking Shipping, Customs and Time into consideration.

Where I do have a massive hernia about flipping, Is when someone gets an item in a great deal, and then tries to sell the item for more than what he paid for it, that's the true definition of flipping to me. Certain Items are known to be "Flipper Unicorns", like the Frankenskulls, Narda/Narca's, M-Atty's, Armor Mechs and plenty more!! Personally, I've got caught up BIG TIME in the hype around some of these items, but recently I finally came to some sense and realized that Paying $2500-$3000 for an atty or piece of CNC'd/Laser Engraved Plastic is just absolute madness, and shows exactly what is wrong with Ego and Status in the first place. I digress!

To me, the problem is, is that everyone has different thought channels on what things are worth, and it's hard to ever police that, no matter what you personally think about it. But I do believe that often the spirit of the community is seriously tarnished when people try to make money off their own good fortune!

The other problem we then sit with, If we do as a community try and curb it, is that these sellers will just go elsewhere. There are plenty of International and Local places where one can sell what they want at whatever price they want to charge, and then the community misses out on all these amazing items.

It's a Catch 22 unfortunately, I don't think we can ever really police it, but I do think we can make people know our thoughts. If someone is seriously trying to push a flipping agenda on here, then I think the Mods need to step in and have a word, eventually removing people who continually do it, but with that said, how do we know what people paid for something and how do we determine what is the right price for an item.

I leave you with this though, Karma is a cruel mistress, and she is continually spinning her web, eventually you will get caught in her grips!!!

 

[Faiyaz Cheulkar]

I don't think it's unethical to order 2 items on a group buy and then selling the second item a few bucks under retail to recover some costs eg shipping

BUT .. what I hate to see is people buying 3/4 mods or rda's on a sale then selling it for retail price as new. Taking away the opportunity for someone else to get a deal by buying all the sale stock is .. imo bullshit.

For eg the vapeking sale , Vgod Elite Mechs were on sale for 600 and the very next day a guy sold around 6 Vgod Elite mechs (brand new) for R1100 each.

Not that I am supporting this, but vape king decided to sell 6 mods to this person so they dint mind what he was going to do with 6 mods at a time. Plus he had that kind of money and guts to take the risk. His conscience allows him to do these things and still sleep at night, a restriction on the forum will not change this.

 

[Rob Fisher]

What is interesting is the second hand High-End market in SA is no longer Flipper Heaven... it used to be but no longer... just getting RRP these days can be difficult.

 

[SarChasm]

Sometimes it works the other way as well, very rarely but there are cases.

I remember joining up because I was in the market for a new RTA.
However since then I've found it great to stick around, the few threads I've created asking certain questions about certain devices or techniques or help I've received information that was ultimately priceless to my vaping experience.
The regular members are extremely clue'd up and willing to assist, maybe this is what hooked me to stick around.

Nowadays most of my time here is spent in the DIY recipe section. Some truly talented recipe creators present.

With regards to the topic at hand though, yes flipping sucks but ultimately threads like those should fade naturally over time as the OP realises no one is responding to his/her bumping ludicrous prices, IMHO anyway.

 

[joshthecarver]

Classified Post Count restriction: Personally I'm not a fan of this idea. I most probably ended up here because I wanted to sell something or buy something (that is how I end up on most forums actually). Restrictive criteria will keep away potential members that might just stick around. Even if the "drive-by" members don't stick around, at least the members on here will be able to benefit from a potential good deal. I don't really see much of an issue with this as long as a bit of common sense is applied to the sale (proceed with caution).

Classified Price discussion: Its a free market. I can ask whatever price I feel my item is worth. Depending on the difficulty and/or cost of acquiring the item, I might justify selling it above RRP. I'm not saying I agree with flipping, I'm just stating an argument that I can ask whatever price I want, I can justify it how I want ... and you in turn can disagree as much as you like and simply ignore my thread.
I know there are some silly prices for items on here. The 'Ignore Thread' button works absolute magic here. Got some repeat offenders that grind your gears? 'Ignore Member' is even better!

That is just my opinion though

I completely agree with you, @TheV
It is a free market and people have the right to choose what they buy and at what price. In an open market however, supply and demand influences pricing, therefore it is also the buyers that influence the price. Flippers would not survive if people didn't pay the ridiculous prices that they were asking for some products, like the NarDA's, Frankenskulls, etc. It is up to the community to choose whether or not flippers exist.

In terms of the minimum post rule, I have to disagree with the sentiment. It may discourage new members from the forum, which is not what we as a community want. I was very intimidated when I first joined, overloaded with all of the new information I was exposed to, and still don't comment much, but I am checking the forums often throughout the day. There are many members like this. It is up to the buyer to keep their wits about them when making a purchase, and I always encourage a face to face meet and paying in cash when buying an item.

As for people who unknowingly pay what we would consider 'too much' for a piece of gear, it is also up to them to have done the research and see what the RRP is of the item/s that they are buying. However, as for new vapers, who are quitting tobacco products, they may be discouraged by the ridiculous prices or bad experiences they encounter when buying in the classifieds and may go back to the stinkies. I think a way to combat this, as many respectable members do, is to put the RRP of the item that is for sale in the 'For Sale Template', so people buying can see what they are paying for. I understand that some items are more expensive because of the time, customs and shipping fees, but then this information should be included in the for sale advert.

I am very supportive of an open and free market, because buyers essentially influence prices and can buy and sell freely, however the more informed the buyers are the better for the community. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder anyway, so for some what may be a ridicuous price, may be a steal to another.

Just my 2c, sorry for the essay but I have a lot to say haha. Following this thread.

 

[Cobrali]

Totally agree to the RRP thread including the customs and VAT portion included. Some of us are lucky to get HE items with no customs but on other items we pay hefty customs. For instance my Limited edition armor bliss cost me about R6500 and I was lucky there was no customs on it, but my never normal blue Haku cap and matching ring cost me R900 plus R150 customs. Now my sales posts are anywhere between 25%-50% off my original price I paid for those items and for that price, I wouldn't be able to sell it anywhere. Who would want to pay R750 for a cap and beauty ring when locally you can the same type of items brand new for about R500-R600.

But you will often see some sales posts from certain regular offenders who sell the prices of their goods way above what they pay for them including customs and VAT and what surprises me is that they do get sold!

But yeah, minimum post counts are not that effective as people just start randomly commenting on posts and pretend to contribute to the community until they reached the desired post count and then sell their stuff and never return again unless they are trying to sell stuff.

That's my 2 cents..

 

[RenaldoRheeder]

Realy prickly pear issue this. Remember this is no different to any other similar public forum / platform and that most on here are doing it for the love of vaping. I think our bunch of Admins are doing a great job and I value especially @Silver efforts to keep the Classifieds as a "safe" place.

Willing buyer willing seller always applies - even with flipping unfortunately. The only issue that I have with flipping, is that the flipper gets away for free and our supporting vendors pay for the privilege to make money. Whether the seller makes a real or perceived profit is not a concern to me, just like when the seller makes a loss.

So do we start thinking of charging a fee for Classifieds when you want to advertise? I would not have any issue with that and I'm sure ECIGSSA can do with the income to support forum related overheads.

Vetting sellers would be of a higher priority to me. I know we have a rating system and a Classifieds feedback system, but I'm not sure if that fully addresses the issue. I'm not even sure if it is really an issue, but that's only me - the one guy representing Nigeria and I have only really been caught once.





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[RichJB]

It doesn't bother me that some people are getting ripped off as I am not my brother's keeper. In any online forum, you are going to find chancers and people whose goals are not aligned with what the forum is trying to achieve. If one cannot accept it, the internet is not a good place to be.

I think some forums try too hard to create the 'right' environment. Reddit, for example, threatens bans for members who post handchecks, vapemail, "what can I make with these flavours?" requests and some other types of posts. These types of posts/threads are common on Ecigssa. So, as a user, I have the option of where I hang out. Do I want:
1) A forum where everything is very orderly but bans are hanging over my head constantly if I step even slightly out of line. Or
2) A forum where there is more latitude and, if it results in threads that annoy me, I can exercise my freedom to not read those threads?

My preference is self-evident from the fact that I'm on Ecigssa and have never been on Reddit. When Vurve and Co used to sign off Beginner Blending with their advice to "read the F@#$%^ sidebar", they probably thought they were helping Reddit. In my case, all they were doing was reinforcing that it's a place where I'm never going to hang out.

 

[87hunter]

Minimum post count - debatable in my opinion. I always vet somebody before handing moola over.
Flipping - tight line. Vaping is very personal. It took me 5 mods and a couple grand to find out what I like, then I tweaked it.
Sometimes you buy something you don't like and sell it a day or two later to try something new however, buying with intent to sell makes you a second hand dealer and you should then register as a vendor.

 

[jm10]

It doesn't bother me that some people are getting ripped off as I am not my brother's keeper. .

I tend to disagree, on a close nit forum such as this people become family and very close friends, i always look out for others even if i dont know them. Its the right thing to do, its not about getting anything out of it but that you did something to benefit someone else with no gain.

Just image the day a total stranger helps in avoiding you getting ripped off.

Next time think of your self as Batman and that gotham(the forum) needs you




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[RichJB]

That's the thing: my Batman days are behind me. I used to try and change the world. Now I just move on. In my youth, if cricket (for eg) was moving in a direction I didn't like, I'd write impassioned pleas on cricket forums, demonstrate with placards at cricket grounds and whatnot. Now I just stop watching and find something else to do with my time. I heard the recent SA v Aus series got very ugly with sledging and then had cheating issues on top of it. I don't know the details as I didn't watch a single minute of it on TV. But just hearing about it satisfied me that I made the right choice in moving on. If other people want to spend their time on a campaign to save cricket, they are welcome. I just don't have the energy tbh.