Dangers Of Clones

[SSSSMARCUSSSSS]

Good evening all. wanted to start this thread as i havent seen one before. ive been seeing a lot of people sell clone juice on whatsapp groups and I always shoot down the sale as i believe it cant be safe. I need some more information on what would make it unsafe.

Any information would be highly appreciated

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[Jack Klinesman]

Any impurities would render it unsafe to vape in my view. This stuff is going into your lungs. I am sure people will tell you that all the impurities are "burnt" off at the temperatures that the vape reaches, I am not convinced. Then there is the possibility of have stuff like ether or other harmful chemicals mixed into the juice, and finally I would not like to vape some flavor additive that should be drunk and not vaped.

NCV for example have a dust proof pressurized environment in which their vape is made. It's only a matter of time before these types of standards start getting written up in the regulations. Me, I would just rather stick to the bigger more well known brands.

 

[Adephi]

Asking the real questions here...

As far as know they taste like manure. But they could also just use budget concentrates and bases that is not as pure as it should be. Thus containing 'toxins'. But I hate that unclear understanding because it sounds like an anti-vaper statement. There must be more to it.

 

[Clouds4Days]

Various items make commercial Chinese clone juice unsafe to consume naming some and the most crucial ones-

1. Where was it mad ie. Is it made in a clean environment free from bacteria etc.
2. What ingredients did they use it. What grade PG and VG did they use and is the flavourings certified food grade flavourings.
3. What is actually inside?? Did they add water to dilute it down and add more volume so that prices can be dirt cheap?

Who knows what's inside these juices.
One things for sure they have definetly taken shortcuts in order to make these juices dirt cheap.

So I always say, stay away and if you can't cause the price is so good and you cant afford comercial juice rather buy plain VG and vape that.

 

[Rooigevaar]

I firmly believe that at the prices these juices are being sold that they must be using Industrial grade VG and PG. It is half the price and half the purity.
They have no problem ripping of an existing brand so why would they have a problem using inferior cheap as chips ingredients? They probably don't even contain nicotine for the most part, and if they do what quality nicotine was used?

 

[Raindance]

My thinking is that someone with the sufficient lack of ethics to clone a juice will have little regard for using the proper grade of ingredients as well as making use of hygienic proceesing methods. Why should they be bothered incurring those costs? I mean if someone gets sick using their product, who is going to get seud?

Regards

Edit: By clone I mean make and sell a copy as the real deal. Thought that needed to be clarified.

 

[Rob Fisher]

They are suspect all the way... anyone with the ethics of stealing intellectual property and hard work by others is suspect all the way and should be avoided at all costs!

 

[Steyn777]

I firmly believe that at the prices these juices are being sold that they must be using Industrial grade VG and PG. It is half the price and half the purity.
They have no problem ripping of an existing brand so why would they have a problem using inferior cheap as chips ingredients? They probably don't even contain nicotine for the most part, and if they do what quality nicotine was used?

What's the average price for a juice...by your post I'm assuming it's less than R30 for a 30ml?

 

[Steyn777]

My thinking is that someone with the sufficient lack of ethics to clone a juice will have little regard for using the proper grade of ingredients as well as making use of hygienic proceesing methods. Why should they be bothered incurring those costs? I mean if someone gets sick using their product, who is going to get seud?

Regards

Edit: By clone I mean make and sell a copy as the real deal. Thought that needed to be clarified.

It did.

 

[Mr. B]

What's the average price for a juice...by your post I'm assuming it's less than R30 for a 30ml?

I've seen Strawberry Jam Monster clones sell for R120/100ml. That's basically R1.20/ml at retail level prices.

That price alone scares me. If I make a bottle of DIY juice it costs me on average R1/ml using proper ingredients. A commercial manufacturer would be able to make it for less than what I do; but if you factor in shipping and customs there's no way you can sell it at retail level for R1.20/ml.

 

[SSSSMARCUSSSSS]

Thanks for all the info guys. And about the price, ive seen some clones go for less than R120/100ml. it ridiculous. and the thing is local juice isnt that pricy. personally i buy from a guy in my area that makes his own at 100/60ml and thats still hlaf the price of smoking so why would people buy clones

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[zadiac]

I have one simple rule. If it's too cheap, then leave it. Done. I DIY mostly, but do buy juice now and then and then stick to well known, mostly domestic brands.

 

[Modyrts]

When it comes to clone e-liquids you have to stop and think to yourself... its a clone its dangerous... but then after thinking for a while you realise that the vape industry in south africa is unregulated.

So when you start talking about grades of ingredients and reliability of the producer what is to say that the premium local ejuice you are vaping right now was not made in the back of a shack in some old dudes garden.

I know some companies have proper lab-like facilities where they produce but not all mixers do.

Clone or not you never really know what you are vaping.



That being said I have boight many clone juices before and never have I been too dissatisfied. Some clones have really good flavor that actually matches the original flavor, the nasty juice clones taste really good for instance.

Clone juices i woll still buy but a clone device, battery or attomizer at the end of the day losing your fingers or face just isnt worth it.

 

[Modyrts]

Just to add onto that... what really defines a clone?

A copy right? That being said to my knowledge Vape juice brands are not trademarked and to my knowledge recepies cannot be copywritten.


Lets take a basic example that we can all relate to. Look at pharmaceuticals. Medicines. Many of us buy the generics because they are usually half the price although exactly the same recepie maybe with one or two small variations.

 

[Rooigevaar]

What's the average price for a juice...by your post I'm assuming it's less than R30 for a 30ml?

I think I may have written it wrong. What I meant to say is that the Industrial Grade VG is half the price of Pharmaceutical grade. And to be more correct it is less than half the price, I just generalised.

I think about it this way. It is produced in China, then it is sold at markup to a distributor and shipped to South Africa, then the Distributor sells it to local shops at a markup and that shop then puts a markup on top of that to make a profit and cover their costs of business. If that bottle sells for only R140 for 100ml considering all the markups along the way then it is safe to say that the original cost of product was next to nothing. The only way to achieve this is to use super cheap raw materials. And those materials are certainly not of good quality or purity...

 

[Humbolt]

When it comes to clone e-liquids you have to stop and think to yourself... its a clone its dangerous... but then after thinking for a while you realise that the vape industry in south africa is unregulated.

So when you start talking about grades of ingredients and reliability of the producer what is to say that the premium local ejuice you are vaping right now was not made in the back of a shack in some old dudes garden.

I know some companies have proper lab-like facilities where they produce but not all mixers do.

Clone or not you never really know what you are vaping.



That being said I have boight many clone juices before and never have I been too dissatisfied. Some clones have really good flavor that actually matches the original flavor, the nasty juice clones taste really good for instance.

Clone juices i woll still buy but a clone device, battery or attomizer at the end of the day losing your fingers or face just isnt worth it.

Fair enough, each to his own. But what about losing a lung or a heart?

 

[Modyrts]

Fair enough, each to his own. But what about losing a lung or a heart?

Youre vaping.
Popcorn lung is a reality.
Losing a lung/heart will always be a possibility...

..and in my opinion and lifestyle vaping a faux ejuice is probably the least likely thing to end up killing me.

 

[Rob Fisher]

Youre vaping.
Popcorn lung is a reality.

@Modyrts Popcorn lung is not a reality. There has never been a case of Popcorn Lung from Vaping in the history of the earth!

 

[Humbolt]

Youre vaping.
Popcorn lung is a reality.
Losing a lung/heart will always be a possibility...

..and in my opinion and lifestyle vaping a faux ejuice is probably the least likely thing to end up killing me.

I think the popcorn lung myth has been debunked a very long time ago, someone can correct me if I'm wrong. I vape as a healthier alternative to smoking, and vaping a clone juice kind of defeats the purpose of vaping for me to a degree. But each to his own, as I said.

 

[Modyrts]

I think the popcorn lung myth has been debunked a very long time ago, someone can correct me if I'm wrong. I vape as a healthier alternative to smoking, and vaping a clone juice kind of defeats the purpose of vaping for me to a degree. But each to his own, as I said.

Im not sure awhether or not it has been debunked but it is a possibility.

And i can understand that.

"Each to thsir own"


However im just trying to get people to stop bashing on clones. Sure they not as great as originals but not all are bad.

 

[Modyrts]

@Modyrts Popcorn lung is not a reality. There has never been a case of Popcorn Lung from Vaping in the history of the earth!

Yet, and my point exact.

 

[Humbolt]

So lets say hypothetically that popcorn lung is a reality with vaping. This theory is based on what is known about vaping and the ingredients in ejuice - so I am willing to take the risk. Now I vape a clone juice, not knowing exactly what is in there, I now open myself up to popcorn lung & even more unknown risks.

No thanks.

 

[RichJB]

Clone juices i woll still buy but a clone device, battery or attomizer at the end of the day losing your fingers or face just isnt worth it.

I think we need to establish terminology here. Clone = designed to copy the original. Counterfeit = designed to fool buyers into thinking it is the original. Juices are mostly counterfeited in the commercial sphere, cloned in the DIY sphere. When you buy a R100 bottle of Boosted at the China mall, that's a counterfeit. When Wayne releases a recipe that emulates the profile of Boosted in #Remixmonth, that's a clone. Or a remix as Wayne prefers to call it.

Hardware is mostly clones. SXK make no bones about the fact that they are copying the Hadaly (or whatever original) design. I have no problems with clone atties in terms of quality. There are some cheap and nasty ones but the SXK ones will be made to much the same standard as the OG. You are not going to blow your lips off by using an SXK clone atty. Counterfeits I won't buy. There are fake Picos which are packaged to make you think you're buying the Eleaf OG. I won't touch those.

There are no clone batteries, only counterfeits. No company releases their version/copy of an LG choc. What they release is an inferior battery designed to fool the buyer into thinking it's a legit LG choc. That is counterfeit and I won't touch them.

In juice terms, I'll happily try clones. I don't buy commercial juice so the manufacturer isn't losing a sale. If Wayne mixes a clone of a commercial juice, I'll probably mix it. Even if I have no idea what the original tastes like, I can still like Wayne's clone for what it is. If I'm offered a Naked juiced for R100, that's a counterfeit not a clone and I therefore won't touch it.

 

[Modyrts]

So lets say hypothetically that popcorn lung is a reality with vaping. This theory is based on what is known about vaping and the ingredients in ejuice - so I am willing to take the risk. Now I vape a clone juice, not knowing exactly what is in there, I now open myself up to popcorn lung & even more unknown risks.

No thanks.

Each to their own

But show me proof that you know exactly what you are vaping is 100% safe and produced in a proper manufacturing facility that meets standards.


Ive been inside the tiger brands factory where they produce chocolate and i must say i was not impressed even though it is one of south africas largest producers for foodstuffs.

Im not denying that clones can be unsafe. However i am denying the fact that juices that are not clones are safe. You do not know what is and what isnt. I dont. And dont claim to.

 

[Humbolt]

But show me proof that you know exactly what you are vaping is 100% safe and produced in a proper manufacturing facility that meets standards.

Yip, I agree with you 100%. I DIY my own juices, though, and buy my things from a reputable dealer. Although there are some juice manufacturers around who do get their juices mixed in a lab, and most of them will provide proof that they do should you ask. Would a counterfeit juice manufacturer be able to do the same?

Ive been inside the tiger brands factory where they produce chocolate and i must say i was not impressed even though it is one of south africas largest producers for foodstuffs.

Agree with this too, the recent Listeriosis outbreak can attest to this.

m not denying that clones can be unsafe. However i am denying the fact that juices that are not clones are safe. You do not know what is and what isnt. I dont. And dont claim to.

True, but at least with authentic juices you can still act against the manufacturer in the event that something should go wrong. I doubt this would be easy to do with counterfeit juices.