Demystifying Flavour Production in RBA's

[YeOldeOke]

OK chaps/chapettes, this morn I have decided to run a thread on flavour production, sharing my vast knowledge on the subject with the Great Unwashed.

Just joking.

I'm caught up in a battle to the death with me new Griffin. Touted as The Greatest Flavour Producing Machine in All of Human Vaping History, it is performing like a wet sock in this department. I suspect I pissed it off somehow, but I know not how or when. It definitely is a she.

My old Kayfun offers better flavour.

Vapour it produces in plentiful measure.

Now I'm the KISS type. Though there are plenty times things get complicated I find things are being overcomplicated too often.

Here's my take on flavour vs vapour production. The basic view. Given the same juice and no dry hits, plenty vapour for the RBA and coil setup, the wicking should be fine. (?)

I've heard it said that the shape of the top of the chamber will affect flavour. I cannot see why. The flavour is in the vapour, chamber shape won't change flavour/vapour profile.

So to me it all boils down to coil setup, wicking, airflow - incl driptip flow. No such thing as an RBA that produces more flavour/less cloud or vice versa. (?)

Basically, flavour is vaporised together with the carrier - VG/PG. Both vapour and flavour should change together depending on the setup.

So wtf is my Griffen giving me lots of cloud but less flavour than my old Kayfun. (Or Orchid)??


I've been vaping on and off for years, but never really became too technical about it, had other things to do. So my knowledge on this issue is superficial.

Would appreciate some feedback on where I'm wrong.


Griffin setup. 2 x 0.44ohm s/s coils - 0.22ohm. Jap cotton. No dry hits, wicking fine.

 

[blujeenz]

I've wicked a goblin mini too tightly, basically ran a 3mm ID coil and it strangled the cotton when screwing the chimney down.
Plenty of vapour, but it tasted really bland.

 

[YeOldeOke]

I've wicked a goblin mini too tightly, basically ran a 3mm ID coil and it strangled the cotton when screwing the chimney down.
Plenty of vapour, but it tasted really bland.

But I cannot understand why. If the cotton is not too tight to wick properly, how can it change the flavour/carrier profile. Or even if it is too tight. Should be less flavour/less vapour. How can it affect just the flavour molecules.

 

[Silver]

Hi @YeOldeOke
Nice thread and I am glad you have brought up the issue of vapour production versus flavour

I have not played with too many tanks - but have had a few of them.

My experiences have led me to find that I tend to get better (more accurate and more concentrated) flavour from smaller chambered devices. Too much airflow tends to dilute the flavour for me. Supposedly this is made up for by more volume of vapour, but for me, when in need of concentrated flavour I do prefer less airflow.

As a result i have tended to get outstanding flavour accuracy and very concentrated flavour from my very small RM2 BF dripper atty (on the Reo). I think its because it is a small chamber and there is not much airflow. Its a MTL vape.

For restricted lung hits I find the Lemo1 still gives me the sharpest and most concentrated flavour for the fruity menthol vapes. It has a smallish chamber and a thin chimney section. Not sure if that is the reason but that is what it has.

Sometimes I do like to vape at much more airflow and blow bigger clouds. But the flavour itself is less concentrated. There are other reasons for vaping like this though - it satisfies in a different way. The sensation I get from a big lung hit is different. Its not that sharp concentrated rich flavour, but is satisfying, volume wise.

I also like my sharp throat hit and I find the lung hits deliver a different type of throat hit. Sort of an accumulated nic fatigue instead of a punch in the back of the throat.

Bear in mind, for flavour, I am mainly vaping at lowish power (say up to 35 watts) with higher nic juice. So my experiences are not to be confused with those vaping on the bigger more powerful setups.

Will follow this thread because I am interested in this topic.

 

[YeOldeOke]

@Silver Is the better flavour in smaller chambers not attributable to spitback of juice onto the tongue maybe?

 

[Silver]

@Silver Is the better flavour in smaller chambers not attributable to spitback of juice onto the tongue maybe?

Not as I have found
I dont get spit back on my bigger chambered bigger airflow devices

My feeling is that its just less concentrated and more diluted with air

But dont get me wrong, I am not saying that a bigger airflow "more diluted flavour" atty is a bad thing. Some folk would say that is better flavour. It all depends on what type of vape they like.
Im just explaining it from my preference.

 

[RIEFY]

Even tho the Griffin is not one of the best flavor producing attys you need to build coils which can take high wattage on the griffin. I have only found decent flavor with claptons at around 80w+ on the griffin. But at 80w a kayfun doesn't come anywhere close as the high wattage brings out notes the kayfun doesn't.


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[RIEFY]

@YeOldeOke what's your build in Griffin mind posting some pics of the build


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[YeOldeOke]

I still battle to divorce flavour concentration from vapour concentration. More air, both should be less concentrated.

Airflow and chamber size: If droplets exist in the vapour - which is what I mean by spitback - flavour will be percieved as more intense.

Small chamber, short chimney/driptip, pretty sure droplets hit the mouth, even if not felt.

Larger chamber, maybe droplets fall back more. Which leads to airflow. If airflow is large and open, the draw upwards in the chamber lower in velocity than smaller airflow with a stronger draw, a faster jet stream? Carrying more droplets higher.

Howzat sound?

Re power. I vape currently TC, at a specific temp. I vary this as the mood hits. So whether I'm vaping at 30W or 80W the only difference should be the ramp-up time? Cannot see how that changes flavour really.

I'm trying to understand how it works so I can translate that to any tank.

 

[YeOldeOke]

@YeOldeOke what's your build in Griffin mind posting some pics of the build


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I'll try and see if I can dig out me Polaroid.

 

[WARMACHINE]

Flavour has to do with the senses, so I assume that the different airflows and heat production of each attys, will effect our sense of taste. I am sure you have experienced a juice with different favour profiles at different wattages. That is how I have always understood how all my devices and builds can make such a difference to a vape flavour. Other than wattage, coil wire makes a big difference to my senses.

 

[blujeenz]

But I cannot understand why. If the cotton is not too tight to wick properly, how can it change the flavour/carrier profile. Or even if it is too tight. Should be less flavour/less vapour. How can it affect just the flavour molecules.

I suspect it has something to do with high VG juices and our perception of flavour is largely based on atomised flavour vs VG.
Alas no facts just theorising.

 

[YeOldeOke]

 

[Lord Vetinari]

Each atty has a build that suits it perfectly IMO. Please note I added IN MY OPINION this is not scientifically validated at all.

Just hit a really sweet spot in the Griffin running 9 wraps of Clapton 1/8th inch ID.

I have had this Airforce RDA around that I have despised since day one. Reckoned I would use it just to practice wrapping coils. So last night I got bored, twisted up 3 strands of 24g stainless steel, wrapped 8 turns around a 1/8inch ID... and BOOM. I havent vaped on anything else since. Phenomenal. Ugly little build but YUM.

Persevere my friend. This is where the hobby part comes in. You can get that Griffin performing how you want. All those reviews you read cant be wrong. I know I got my Griffin because of all the killer reviews and it does rock. I hit on a build I like quickly seems you dont have the same luck as me thats all.

 

[blujeenz]

View attachment 50072

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Wick looks too short, should touch the bottom of the wells.

 

[Lord Vetinari]

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You want to get your coils closer to the posts with shorter leads for a start. Coil the Griffin close to the posts works bettet than right over the air holes.

Your wicks are a little fat sitting in those rings. Fluff out the ends and snip off the top half. Use the back end of a needle to push cotton down through the ring. Once cotton is in use your pin to wiggle it and see if it is tight. Use pin to pull cotton strands down through the ring. NO FOLDS or bunches your Griffin wont wick if the cotton is bunched in the juice slot.

I hope this helps. That build SHOULD be a decent vape.

 

[Lord Vetinari]

Wick looks too short, should touch the bottom of the wells.

You run it without the ring? I was thinking taking the ring off shoul simplify matters myself. Going to try it.

 

[OnePowerfulCorsa]

I have the same issue as the OP. I have tried several different builds and coil types in the Griffin and the flavour is there but not great.

I got better flavour from my Uwell Crown and my old Melo 2 is very near the same as the Griffin. I have tasted my mates Griffin and he claims it is great but when tasting his I also found it average.

I thought it could just be my tastebuds but I do taste awesome flavour from most RDA's and I have tried other mates tanks and it tasted great.

 

[blujeenz]

You run it without the ring? I was thinking taking the ring off shoul simplify matters myself. Going to try it.

Its a Mutation X MT RTA Wicking Tutorial I found on Utube to illustrate, I dont actually have either this one or the Griffin.

 

[YeOldeOke]

I've set my coils higher and closer to centre. Dropped wick into channels - I don't believe this will do anything, it was wicking fine, and most will tell you not to drop wick below ring - so we'll see. Later.

But setting things up specifically for a specific tank is not what I had in mind with this thread. I for one want to understand the physics about it, it is the only way to understand. Taste is subjective, but anything outside your mouth isn't.

 

[YeOldeOke]

Flavour has to do with the senses, so I assume that the different airflows and heat production of each attys, will effect our sense of taste. I am sure you have experienced a juice with different favour profiles at different wattages. That is how I have always understood how all my devices and builds can make such a difference to a vape flavour. Other than wattage, coil wire makes a big difference to my senses.

Different flavour at different wattages I can easily understand as you are heating up the juice to different temperatures. Different flavour concentration/unit of carrier (cloud) at the same temperature I do not, irrespective of tank type.

Coil wire tasting different is another dicey one for me, though I don't really want to go there in this thread. I have vaped on Kanthal, NiCr and SS and I honestly find no taste difference between the three. But then I was never a cloud chaser so never pushed things to their limits. IMHO the only time the heating element should influence flavor is if it is heated past it's 'comfort zone' and the wire starts giving off particles of whatever.

 

[Spydro]

For me it's a balance of a build first that the liquid likes the best, that gives it the chance to give up its best, and draw management. The best flavor is achieved by the densest, most concentrated vapor I can muster out of a given RDA. The compact small chamber atty's are the kings of flavor in part because they make my "job" easier. I'm a lung hitter that likes unrestricted draws, so I keep AFC's wide open and drill air intake holes larger on those RDA's that don't have AFC. To get the flavor I wanted despite the open draw I learned to take slow, very long draws to fill my lungs that gives the vapor extra time to condense and become dripping wet flavor rich vapor. The only downside if it even is one (not to me), I also get a lot of condensation inside of the chamber. The smaller chambers are easier, the draws can be faster yet they still condense the vapor. With most big chamber atty's I can't draw long enough to get satisfying flavor. Some would probably do better if I'd close down their AFC's for a more restricted draw, but the trade off I went with instead is to just not use big chamber RDA's (there's a pile of them around here). Another tidbit, I sometimes also get different flavor nuances from the same liquids in different small to medium chamber atty's. I tend to try to change the builds in them to enhance those differences. Like getting multiple liquids out of just one.

I had not used tanks for going on 2 years, but now I've dove back into them some with Targets and Avocado's (due to official Admin enabling here). The Targets chimney is small chamber, the Avo a mid size chamber with dual's, small chamber single coil with it's reducer/tank plug in place. So they are working for my draw style quite well, and I'm mostly getting great flavor from them.

 

[Lord Vetinari]

I have the same issue as the OP. I have tried several different builds and coil types in the Griffin and the flavour is there but not great.

I got better flavour from my Uwell Crown and my old Melo 2 is very near the same as the Griffin. I have tasted my mates Griffin and he claims it is great but when tasting his I also found it average.

I thought it could just be my tastebuds but I do taste awesome flavour from most RDA's and I have tried other mates tanks and it tasted great.

I find the Melo 2 to be weak but the Griffin so overwhelming I have to take breaks between toots where if I vaped Torus I wont even feel like food. I find it so odd you found it lacking in flavour. My mind is boggled. Me and a buddy compared the Griffin and Aromamizer head to head and agreed they are in the same league.

 

[Lord Vetinari]

I've set my coils higher and closer to centre. Dropped wick into channels - I don't believe this will do anything, it was wicking fine, and most will tell you not to drop wick below ring - so we'll see. Later.

But setting things up specifically for a specific tank is not what I had in mind with this thread. I for one want to understand the physics about it, it is the only way to understand. Taste is subjective, but anything outside your mouth isn't.

Start here. Fact is the science is still being built up. Fellas right here on the forums working hard on it. Many factors involved. This is just about heat and air flow.

'"So one of the little (not so little) vaping puzzles which continues to boggle me is the relationship between coil size and wicking, airflow (direct and indirect), power output and juice composition. Specifically, how the coil-masters can get practically any atty to vape fantastically first try, whereas for the rest of us it involves multiple videos, opinions and a hell of a lot of experimentation with different builds to get certain attys to work. "

Yup I think this is the read you want...

http://www.ecigssa.co.za/some-scien...tomizer-evaluation-metric.t21258/#post-347858

 

[Waine]

In simple terms, I personally get the best flavour from my Fishbone RDA on a mech mod, with a usual 24 G, SSteel, 6 to 7 wraps, 0.3 Ohm, with "Cotton Bacon V2" wick.

It's rather surprising as the FBONE is such a simple device with no airflow control, unlike more technically advanced RDA'S with which one would expect better flavour production.

Perhaps a fluke?

BTW "Cotton Bacon V2." is matchless for handling and flavour. I have tried a few other cottons, no names mentioned, and there is a definite flavour difference. I won't use anything else.

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