And here is some research questioning the validity of diacetyl as the culprit for popcorn lung - seems smoking might have been the culprit - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24635357
Diacetyl, Acetoin, And Acetyl Propionyl: The Dairy, Creamy Flavours.
- Thread starter MarkK
- Start date
This diacetyl thing is becoming like the asbestos situation back in the day, asbestos was seen as a miracle material, the people working with it didnt know to have the right safety equipment to work with it as its been seen as a safe product and after years of cutting and working with it the factories was filled with deadly dust they were inhaling every day for years, resulting in the asbestos lung, there is still houses with asbestos roofs and people are suddenly scared they gonna walk under a piece of asbestos and breath in a particle of asbestos dust and suddenly die, thats not gonna happen, if you are not working with it it basicly is harmless. Same with the diacetyl thing, people inhale that stuff in the factories for years before they picked up on it making them sick. Fibreglass is probably one of the most dangerous materials on the market today but is been manufactured and reworked by the consumers with the knowledge of the safety aspect and thus they know to wear masks and gloves etc. If they didnt work with the safety gear fibreglass would have made a lot of people sick and it would have been banned just like asbestos.
Inhaling diacetyl isnt good yes, but taking it in in small quantities aint gonna kill you, I dont mind it, I know what it can and cant do and if i wanna vape some custard which has diacetyl in i will but all in moderation, like a treat every now and them, not gonna vape it for 24hours a day for a week at a time.
Inhaling diacetyl isnt good yes, but taking it in in small quantities aint gonna kill you, I dont mind it, I know what it can and cant do and if i wanna vape some custard which has diacetyl in i will but all in moderation, like a treat every now and them, not gonna vape it for 24hours a day for a week at a time.
And for me the best words on this is from Clark at Nicoticket in their product description for Custard's Last Stand:
*Nicoticket LLC is committed to ensuring our "family" - past, present, and prospective - understand the inhalation risks associated with vaping specific types of flavors. All liquid containing "custard notes" from ALL VENDORS (including Nicoticket LLC) contain some combination of Diacetyl, Acetoin, and/or Acytyl Propionyl (collectively known as "diketones"). This liquid does *not* contain Diacetyl, but it *does* contain Acetoin, Acytyl Propionyl; or both. It is *impossible* to produce the "rich, creamy, decadent, full-mouth experience" in eLiquid without diketones. Such is life - everything that tastes good is bad for you. Potential users are advised that there may be reason for pause due to an absence of longitudinal research which can provide adequate guidance with regard to the relative safety of inhaling eLiquid containing diketones. As with all eLiquid regardless of the types of flavoring used, the user accepts the all liability and risk associated with vaping. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SAFE VAPING.
*Nicoticket LLC is committed to ensuring our "family" - past, present, and prospective - understand the inhalation risks associated with vaping specific types of flavors. All liquid containing "custard notes" from ALL VENDORS (including Nicoticket LLC) contain some combination of Diacetyl, Acetoin, and/or Acytyl Propionyl (collectively known as "diketones"). This liquid does *not* contain Diacetyl, but it *does* contain Acetoin, Acytyl Propionyl; or both. It is *impossible* to produce the "rich, creamy, decadent, full-mouth experience" in eLiquid without diketones. Such is life - everything that tastes good is bad for you. Potential users are advised that there may be reason for pause due to an absence of longitudinal research which can provide adequate guidance with regard to the relative safety of inhaling eLiquid containing diketones. As with all eLiquid regardless of the types of flavoring used, the user accepts the all liability and risk associated with vaping. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SAFE VAPING.
This is all I was trying to say, Nicoticket did a much better job of it...
Thanks Andre.
Awesome quote from Clark at Nicoticket @Andre !
Nothing wrong with some good healthy debate. I think it also comes down to using some good old common sense:
It's like indulging in fat... chicken skin, lamb fat on a "skaap tjoppie", "skilpadjies/lewer en netvet", bacon, deep fried foods. They are all sooooo yummy and I for one LOVE pigging out on them from time to time. I do however know that if I consume these fats on a regular basis/daily that I will come to an early demise for obvious reasons. Do we ban fat because we will be affecting our health if we consume it all day every day? Of course not. The same goes for sugar/sugar rich foods or simple carbo hydrates. Over consumption will surely cause diabetes, heart disease, etc...
So yes I agree, vendors should state if one or some of their flavours contain these known "unsure/risky" components. Custard flavours do make nice flavourfull treats every now and then though and should perhaps be treated as an occasional treat and not a staple juice for everyday all day use.
As for Vapour Mountain... none of our juices contain flavours with added Diacetyl. Our Vanilla Custard flavour does contain acetoin and acetyl propionyl and is now marked as such on our website.
Nothing wrong with some good healthy debate. I think it also comes down to using some good old common sense:
It's like indulging in fat... chicken skin, lamb fat on a "skaap tjoppie", "skilpadjies/lewer en netvet", bacon, deep fried foods. They are all sooooo yummy and I for one LOVE pigging out on them from time to time. I do however know that if I consume these fats on a regular basis/daily that I will come to an early demise for obvious reasons. Do we ban fat because we will be affecting our health if we consume it all day every day? Of course not. The same goes for sugar/sugar rich foods or simple carbo hydrates. Over consumption will surely cause diabetes, heart disease, etc...
So yes I agree, vendors should state if one or some of their flavours contain these known "unsure/risky" components. Custard flavours do make nice flavourfull treats every now and then though and should perhaps be treated as an occasional treat and not a staple juice for everyday all day use.
As for Vapour Mountain... none of our juices contain flavours with added Diacetyl. Our Vanilla Custard flavour does contain acetoin and acetyl propionyl and is now marked as such on our website.
None of our flavour concentrates contain diacetyl, the following do however contain acetoin/acetyl propionyl and are marked with *** on the site.
Apple (Granny Smith)
Bavarian Cream
Coconut
Hazelnut
Sweet Cream
Vanilla Custard
White Chocolate
Microwave popcorn seems to be the most popular place to stick it.
hey.... now that you mention it maybe thats why I look like a popcorn
Why do I feel like I am being ridiculed by the community for my concern...
Is this how we conduct ourselfs?
@Andre Can you please close and delete this thread...
I have been the butt of enough jokes now thanks...
@MarkK my comments weren't meant to insult or make fun of anyone, I don't think anyone else that commented on this post intended to offend you. When a topic gets heated I do try and lighten the mood with humour, I think a few other forum members do the same. Please understand that this topic is a pretty well pressurized can o' worms that has been standing in the sun too long, and every time someone opens the lid people start getting edgy. Nothing personal bud it's the kind of subject that gets people heated.
Bygons?
Bygons?
While I agree that the search function is the place to start any discussion, I do not belive it should be an issue for standup members of the vaping community to offer constructive guidance around areas of concern for fellow members. No matter how many times it's been dealt with before.
In referance to the qoute from nicoticket.
The term "safe" may be a reference to either absolute safety or to acceptable safety. As soon as a system or product is determined to be safety-critical, absolute safety may become an impossible target. on the other hand acceptable or relative levels of safety generally imply that there is some way of judging how much harm either justifies more effort or demands a different approach.
It is irresponsible for an organisation or manufacturer to approach vaping safety as absolute as it allows for a view of impossibility. There is no clear indication of the risk associated with certain ingredients nor has the safety requirement been broadly defined 'safety criticle' or 'acceptably safe'.
The principle of As Low As Reasonably Practicable (ALARP) embodies the concept that acceptability can be influenced by the cost of improving safety, 'cost' being defined as monetory, effort or residual risk. It does so by categorising the assessment of a risk into one of three possibilities: those with so great a risk they are never acceptable, those with so little a risk they are always acceptable, and the remaining which are acceptable provided that they have been reduced to as low as reasonably practicable and where the cost of reducing the risk further is not justified by the improvement to safety.
My point is that there is definitely a safe in vaping. That "safe" will in time be determined by legal requirements but for the time being it should be determined by responsible manufactures that adhere to the ALARP principle. By viewing it as an acceptable rather than absolute safety and always striving to eliminate risks that are within our ability to eliminate.
In CraftVapour's view, the cost of reducing the generally acceptable risk of acetoin was effort. We chose to remove acetoin which forced us to get creative in our approach to flavours as we do not have access to most cream, butter, caramel and custard flavourants. It was an acceptable cost for what we consider to be a relative increase in the safety of our product. In time we may review this decision based on demand or new information that changes the risk category of acetoin.
Every organization will have different risk appetites and one approach does not fit all. There is a place for acetoin in a market with educated consumers. Consumers have a right to choose and many find acetoin acceptable when compared to the risks in smoking tobacco.
@MarkK I hope this helps clarify our position on custard ingredients.
In referance to the qoute from nicoticket.
The term "safe" may be a reference to either absolute safety or to acceptable safety. As soon as a system or product is determined to be safety-critical, absolute safety may become an impossible target. on the other hand acceptable or relative levels of safety generally imply that there is some way of judging how much harm either justifies more effort or demands a different approach.
It is irresponsible for an organisation or manufacturer to approach vaping safety as absolute as it allows for a view of impossibility. There is no clear indication of the risk associated with certain ingredients nor has the safety requirement been broadly defined 'safety criticle' or 'acceptably safe'.
The principle of As Low As Reasonably Practicable (ALARP) embodies the concept that acceptability can be influenced by the cost of improving safety, 'cost' being defined as monetory, effort or residual risk. It does so by categorising the assessment of a risk into one of three possibilities: those with so great a risk they are never acceptable, those with so little a risk they are always acceptable, and the remaining which are acceptable provided that they have been reduced to as low as reasonably practicable and where the cost of reducing the risk further is not justified by the improvement to safety.
My point is that there is definitely a safe in vaping. That "safe" will in time be determined by legal requirements but for the time being it should be determined by responsible manufactures that adhere to the ALARP principle. By viewing it as an acceptable rather than absolute safety and always striving to eliminate risks that are within our ability to eliminate.
In CraftVapour's view, the cost of reducing the generally acceptable risk of acetoin was effort. We chose to remove acetoin which forced us to get creative in our approach to flavours as we do not have access to most cream, butter, caramel and custard flavourants. It was an acceptable cost for what we consider to be a relative increase in the safety of our product. In time we may review this decision based on demand or new information that changes the risk category of acetoin.
Every organization will have different risk appetites and one approach does not fit all. There is a place for acetoin in a market with educated consumers. Consumers have a right to choose and many find acetoin acceptable when compared to the risks in smoking tobacco.
@MarkK I hope this helps clarify our position on custard ingredients.
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Ummm....
is that the average amount of juice used per day in general?I must be very addicted then, because I go through 30-40ml a day easily....lol
You then hold the world record I think - highest I've seen was a dude on Reddit said he did 300ml a month - which is about 10ml's a dayUmmm....
I must be very addicted then, because I go through 30-40ml a day easily....lol
Ummm....
I must be very addicted then, because I go through 30-40ml a day easily....lol
Then I beat that chap... I refill my 6ml bottles twice a day plus a bit so I use around 12-14ml per day.
I'm similar, usually more If I'm up late, but 60-70% is unflavoured (bestest ADV ever, coz you can hammer it all day and still have tons taste left for evening dessert vapes )
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