Distinguishing a Seller vs a Flipper

[Clouds4Days]

Hi there Vape Fam

I just thought i would like to get some peeps views on the above mentioned Title.
Alot of gear gets sold through the classifieds for various reasons-
-Unused
-Not in use
-No longer needed
-unwanted gift
-need the cash

So my queation is how does one distinguish and prevent from someone that is genuinely selling used gear to get some cash at a reduced cost (as the item is second hand)

Vs

Someone buying and selling used Gear but at RRP or higher price (flipping) because its not a easy attanable piece of gear.

I get that some items are sought after but ecigssa is not a trading platform for flippers, that's what FB groups like (Mikeys Mod Mart, High End Mods Group etc) were created for .

I feel as a vaping community we have the responsibility to stop people from flipping on ecigssa as it is just out right wrong.

Another thing is if one is selling gear for a higher price than what you actually paid is that not reffered to as being a Trader?
We have suporting vendors that pay money every month in order to advertise and sell products.

Anyways.
What's your guys views and if yous all agree how can we stop or prevent from having flippers on our platform?

Peace...

 

[spiv]

Good points.

I don't have a problem if it's cheaper because it's second hand, but no matter how hard a piece of gear is to get, it should be sold at less than a new one, otherwise that's flipping and making a profit and the person is essentially a vendor.

Some prices for vape gear in the classifieds are crazy high when compared to the RRP including shipping and customs.

Vendors buy and add their markup. If a guy with a store constantly bombarded the classifieds with his stock, that would be frowned upon and posts will be deleted. If you're flipping, you're adding your markup. Rare or not... It's not fair to the vendors.

 

[Raindance]

Flipping in itself is merely the act of utilizing the laws of supply and demand to make a profit on sought after items for which demand exceeds supply. The act of flipping is therefore neither illegal nor immoral as it plays by the rules of our good old capitalist system. A willing, and hopefully informed buyer transacting with a willing seller, nothing wrong with that.

Does it belong on this forum? I think this is the real question.

My basic response would be why not? As an example, if any of us were to find out that an old piece of equipment has now become a sought after collectors item, what would be wrong with advertising it here at a price reflecting its collectors value?

Ok, I get the point of registered retailers versus classified adverts posted by ordinary members. Advertising in the classifieds for the purpose of turning a profit is not aligned to the spirit of this service and constitutes abuse of the privilege. For this reason, and this reason alone I am inclined to support the no flipping camp.

How does one identify and enforce this then?

There is a difference between a person purchasing a piece of high end gear, realizing it does not suit him and advertising it for a couple of bucks more than the original purchase price (Because he knows he can get his price), and a person buying a number of HE items for the sole purpose of reselling at a profit. Identifying which is which is the difficult part.
Considering the last statement, and the complexity of the situation the following. A basic principle of decision making is that if the cost of failure is less than the cost of prevention, the right choice to make is to accept failure.

So what I am trying to demonstrate is that the occurrence and "cost" associated with flipping adverts in the classifieds are most probably not worth the effort and fallout of the feces storm that could potentially arise from trying to eliminate them. Both the sellers and buyers that participate in these deals do so willingly and those of us that object have the option not to participate neither are we negatively affected by these adds, so why worry.

Retailers could claim it unfair because their goods are resold at higher prices, but then again, this would indicate they are selling below perceived market value and they have the option to raise their own prices. Free market research.

Having gone through the above thoughts my final conclusion needs to be that although I agree these adds do not belong in the classifieds, as long as the problem does not reach critical levels, it is best to just let them be.

Regards

 

[Petrus]

@Clouds4Days, I will get some dislikes, but flipping means instant BAN. But I assume if you really wants a piece of gear you are going to pay more than the RRP. I know on most Facebook groups you must clearly indicate the RRP of the item being sold.

 

[Silver]

Thanks for bringing this up @Clouds4Days

Allow me to paste the initial paragraph of the Classifieds Rules :

The Classifieds exist as a free service that we offer to our loyal members to buy or sell personal items. It is not to be used in any form as a commercial outlet or a perceived commercial outlet. If you wish to commercially trade on ECIGSSA, please contact one of the administrators or moderators.

The principle here is very well summed up by @Raindance above:

Advertising in the classifieds for the purpose of turning a profit is not aligned to the spirit of this service and constitutes abuse of the privilege. For this reason, and this reason alone I am inclined to support the no flipping camp.

The whole point of the Classifieds is to be a free service that adds value to members to be able to sell their personal vaping things they no longer need or use. It was never intended for this to be used as a channel to make a profit by regular ongoing sales where the products were bought initially for the intention of reselling on the Classifieds.

And let me say that we as the Admin and Mod team spend quite a bit of time moderating the Classifieds. It is one of those areas which is open to abuse and needs constant monitoring. But we do feel it adds good value to members here. We have tried our best to keep it "clean".

If you see someone you feel is breaking the intended spirit of this, please feel free to send one of the admin and mod team a PM and let us know. We can then take it onboard, discuss it and decide on the best way forward.

 

[RenaldoRheeder]

Some very interesting questions raised. From a buyer perspective, I can argue that it is in my interest to have the opportunity to buy whatever sought after item becomes available at whatever price I am prepared to pay.

However, from a fairness perspective for our supporting vendors, I can see the challenge.

How about a system of commission on all sales to ECIGSSA? In that way we address the fairness issue relating to our supporting vendors; We have willing buyers and sellers with free choice; And we are maintaining our ECIGSSA platform.

Options for implementation is plentiful - it can even improve security and integrity of transactions if a system is implemented whereby ECIGSSA act as the third party in the transaction to receive and disburse payments

Not as simple as just that, but an idea to consider

My 2 kobo worth.


Sent by iDad's iPhone

 

[incredible_hullk]

Spot on @Clouds4Days and thanks for tackling the elephant in the room

I think it goes against the spirit of the community here after all we are one virtual family and should not be “extorting” from each other

I agree with @Petrus .... ban the flippers

 

[Clouds4Days]

The main issue i have with
Flippers on this platform is (and im gonna remove the morally wrong equation from this situation)-

I can understand if you buy something today and a few days/weeks later you realise this is not for me and decide to let it go and even if you put it up for sale at your cost price thats fine.

But then next week you buy somthing else and say its not for me let me add R200 ontop because its sought after,

Following week same thing happens, and the next and the next...

You are using the classifieds to trade as a business and therfore bypassing being a vendor on ecigssa when that is actually what your doing (Trading/making a profit).

 

[Silver]

The main issue i have with
Flippers on this platform is (and im gonna remove the morally wrong equation from this situation)-

I can understand if you buy something today and a few days/weeks later you realise this is not for me and decide to let it go and even if you put it up for sale at your cost price thats fine.

But then next week you buy somthing else and say its not for me let me add R200 ontop because its sought after,

Following week same thing happens, and the next and the next...

You are using the classifieds to trade as a business and therfore bypassing being a vendor on ecigssa when that is actually what your doing (Trading/making a profit).

What you are describing is not the intended spirit of the Classifieds @Clouds4Days
If you spot this behaviour and feel the person is using it to run a business of sorts, then please send me a PM and i will take it up with the team

 

[KZOR]

I for one do not possess the cash flow that allows me to indulge in buying HE or rare gear. Maybe one a year.
Fortunately i very rarely see a piece of hardware that, to me, is worth the price being sold at.
I watch a crapload of reviews and many times you see a reviewer discussing such an item he purchased but never again you see him using or referring to it in videos he/she does after that one.
My theory is that a lot of vapers buy these items because it is a trend or that it makes them feel special or that they crave the attention they receive when others know they have obtained it but in the majority of these cases those special moments are temporary.
I buy what i think would be a great piece of hardware despite it's position in the top 10 or it's level of availability in the Russian underground.

So what is my point?
I have no problem with a person selling his personal property at the price he desires. It is my option as a sane human to accept, decline or ignore the opportunity.
We have vapers in this community that love buying expensive gear for whatever the reason and they would then have the chance to satisfy their needs via a more familiar environment.
As long as it does not become a commercial trend meaning that you don't see one specific individual flipping a variety of these goods often. But ecigssa members have the keen ability to spot that a mile away.

I must admit that i enjoy seeing all these goodies but that is where it stops most of the times because i realise that it is just another mod that does exactly the same as my Therion, Hcigar or Smok Alien. I am one for practicality and hence enjoy a certain market while others enjoy other things ..... why limit them?

A mod to me must look good, have a great battery life, feel great in the hand, be within my affordable price range, durable components and have that something special that caters to my taste or preferance.

 

[Clouds4Days]

@Silver i think this is a quick and easy fix.

@Petrus mentioned it above, would it be possible to add on the classifieds template the RRP. NB- (price should not be these HE FB auction price but the price the original manufacturer sold it for.)

 

[Christos]

People often contact me to acquire something I own that they want. The sad reality is that people want what I have but want to offer me less that what I paid for the item. I'm no in vaping to make any money but I'm also not in vaping to buy mods for folks and bear the costs myself.

It's another story if I deliberately add the item to the classifieds etc but it's turning into a case of "I want stuffs and I want you to bear the cost".

If I pay 200USD over RRP for an item I want and you ask me to purchase it should you really be upset if I just want to recover my costs?

I think @KZOR and @Raindance have said it well. Free market where informed buyers can make their own mind up on if they are prepared to pay and if they want the item.

I do agree there is a growing trend of people selling items for 3 to 10x the cost but these guys come and go.

That being said I find it more and more difficult to post items in the vapemail thread as I generally get messages to purchase items and I feel like the right thing to do is spread the vape love and let people have what they desire but this often leads to me being worse off as there is shipping and duties etc that I have to absorb.

 

[Hakhan]

very interesting...what is the price of second hand vape devices. if you buy a new car the minute you drive off it's depreciated by +20%
is the buyer of the second hand device also meant to pay for the cost of bringing the device into the country? customs charges and finders fee etc.
flippers are worse than cloners imho and the reason why some products are cloned

 

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

In my opinion it is simply a case of "caveat emptor...let the buyer beware" When applying this ancient principle in its widest sense, the buyer should be aware that he/she is paying more than the RRP. If you have done your basic research on an item (just google it) you will know what the RRP is, and should you still wish to buy it at an inflated price, you should be free to do so. Likewise you should be free to offer it at the higher price. We are selling to adults (18 years and above). As an adult you should know that you must research an item (including price) before you buy it.

A person who buys high end equipment hoping to cash in on a lack of supply runs a risk. The item may fall out of favour for many reasons (something better comes on the market...item proves to have issues...etc) The seller may then make a loss on the items. Or conversely, cash in, an make a good profit.

The seller who does this is clearly engaged in commercial activities. i.e. buy at a price, to sell at a higher price.

As @Silver has explained, the forum rules clearly state that the classifieds are not a commercial outlet. A flipper should therefore not permitted to sell on the forum's classified section.

I'm sure we all agree that the admin team do a great job (in all respects) and that they will prevent commercial use of the classifieds. We can help by alerting them to potential flippers should we identify them.

To sum up. I am not against flippers in general but (according to our present rules) they should not be allowed to sell on the forum's classifieds.

 

[Clouds4Days]

People often contact me to acquire something I own that they want. The sad reality is that people want what I have but want to offer me less that what I paid for the item. I'm no in vaping to make any money but I'm also not in vaping to buy mods for folks and bear the costs myself.

It's another story if I deliberately add the item to the classifieds etc but it's turning into a case of "I want stuffs and I want you to bear the cost".

If I pay 200USD over RRP for an item I want and you ask me to purchase it should you really be upset if I just want to recover my costs?

I think @KZOR and @Raindance have said it well. Free market where informed buyers can make their own mind up on if they are prepared to pay and if they want the item.

I do agree there is a growing trend of people selling items for 3 to 10x the cost but these guys come and go.

That being said I find it more and more difficult to post items in the vapemail thread as I generally get messages to purchase items and I feel like the right thing to do is spread the vape love and let people have what they desire but this often leads to me being worse off as there is shipping and duties etc that I have to absorb.

If someone approaches you to buy a piece of gear then yes by all means name your price i see that as fair.
Its happend with us in the past where i wanted to buy something you had, you named your price i wasnt happy with X price and i moved along.

But yes under those circumstances seller is 100% in his right to name his price.

 

[Clouds4Days]

In my opinion it is simply a case of "caveat emptor...let the buyer beware" When applying this ancient principle in its widest sense, the buyer should be aware that he/she is paying more than the RRP. If you have done your basic research on an item (just google it) you will know what the RRP is, and should you still wish to buy it at an inflated price, you should be free to do so. Likewise you should be free to offer it at the higher price. We are selling to adults (18 years and above). As an adult you should know that you must research an item (including price) before you buy it.

A person who buys high end equipment hoping to cash in on a lack of supply runs a risk. The item may fall out of favour for many reasons (something better comes on the market...item proves to have issues...etc) The seller may then make a loss on the items. Or conversely, cash in, an make a good profit.

The seller who does this is clearly engaged in commercial activities. i.e. buy at a price, to sell at a higher price.

As @Silver has explained, the forum rules clearly state that the classifieds are not a commercial outlet. A flipper should therefore not permitted to sell on the forum's classified section.

I'm sure we all agree that the admin team do a great job (in all respects) and that they will prevent commercial use of the classifieds. We can help by alerting them to potential flippers should we identify them.

To sum up. I am not against flippers in general but (according to our present rules) they should not be allowed to sell on the forum's classifieds.

View attachment 112326

Agree 99% , but and the main issue isn't really once off poster trying to make a quick buck. Its about multiple items for sale at a inflated price (using the classifieds to trade).

 

[Seemo.wm]

In my humble opinion, when going through the classifieds, if I dont like the asking price I'll just move on.
I didnt even know flipping was a thing until this thread, but nobody is being forced into a transaction. If the seller is happy with the price he is getting, and the buyer is happy to pay the price, the deal will go on. If either party is unhappy, nobody is fored to buy.

I assumed there's a market for the high end gear, but I just click on

 

[Clouds4Days]

In my humble opinion, when going through the classifieds, if I dont like the asking price I'll just move on.
I didnt even know flipping was a thing until this thread, but nobody is being forced into a transaction. If the seller is happy with the price he is getting, and the buyer is happy to pay the price, the deal will go on. If either party is unhappy, nobody is fored to buy.

I assumed there's a market for the high end gear, but I just click on

There are various reasons why flipping is frowned upon.
The main reason being is alot of HE gear is dificult to attain some items you go onto a short list in order to get one and can sometimes wait months to get a specific iteam.

Not everyone can get on these lists and then you have some douch bags that get onto the list in order get the product just so they can resell for a profit.

 

[RichJB]

I didnt even know flipping was a thing until this thread, but nobody is being forced into a transaction. If the seller is happy with the price he is getting, and the buyer is happy to pay the price, the deal will go on. If either party is unhappy, nobody is fored to buy.

I think @Clouds4Days point is not that the deal shouldn't be allowed to happen, just that it shouldn't be allowed to happen here. As he said, there are FB forums for such deals. To draw an analogy, a lot of people buy drugs and a lot of people sell drugs. So transactions are going to happen. But that doesn't mean you want those transactions happening on the pavement outside your house or from the reception area of the company where you work.

I tend to agree with him. Times are tight and people will do anything to make money. But flipping is the equivalent of ticket scalping. It is buying up a rare resource to create a shortage and then selling it at an inflated cost for max profits. I don't think it falls within the spirit of what ECIGSSA is trying to achieve with the Classifieds. If people want to flip, they can knock themselves out on FB. They don't have to do it here.

 

[TheV]

Some items end up on the classifieds at higher than RRP simply because there are other costs involved and I'm okay with that.
A Billet Box costs $264 from the manufacturer but you won't be able to buy one for the R3755 that it converts to.
Package forwarding and import duties have to be taken into account and as such BB's sell for a higher price than $264 on the classifieds.
The same is true for a lot of HE items, and this needs to be taken into account.

At the end of the day a seller can ask whatever he wants for an item in my opinion.
It is my right as a buyer to vote with my wallet, whether it is on the classifieds or any other commercial platform.
Does that mean I'm okay with flipping, not at all. But its not always such a clear cut case what an item cost a person.

 

[Seemo.wm]

I see what you guys mean @Clouds4Days @RichJB

So @TheV put it well then...

 

[Clouds4Days]

I think @Clouds4Days point is not the deal shouldn't be allowed to happen, just that it shouldn't be allowed to happen here. As he said, there are FB forums for such deals. To draw an analogy, a lot of people buy drugs and a lot of people sell drugs. So transactions are going to happen. But that doesn't mean you want those transactions happening on the pavement outside your house or from the reception area of the company where you work.

I tend to agree with him. Times are tight and people will do anything to make money. But flipping is the equivalent of ticket scalping. It is buying up a rare resource to create a shortage and then selling it at an inflated cost for max profits. I don't think it falls within the spirit of what ECIGSSA is trying to achieve with the Classifieds. If people want to flip, they can knock themselves out on FB. They don't have to do it here.

Thank you brother. You explained it better than me .

 

[Jengz]

I agree with both ends in certain ways. I feel it’s very difficult to classify someone as a flipper, the vaping life is a rabbit hole as we all know and you consistently just wanna buy something new as you feel it will be better, but it never is... like @KZOR stated most things do the same thing.

Sometimes yes it’s nice to spoil yourself and buy something great and let your wallet cry but I honestly feel the person must be able to recover the cost they incured depending on the condition and age of the item. I don’t however agree with using the classifieds as a platform to buy stuff off an already difficult market just for the purposes of creating a demand and then selling it but like I said the intention of each individual is hard to determine.

I know if I had the financial calibilities to buy a new great mod, use it for a bit and then sell it, I would. And for some that’s how it is, so I don’t think we can criticize someone who satisfies their wants because they can but also I don’t feel the classifieds should be used to create demand by buying out stuff and then extorting.

I love this forum and have no complaints and feel that if people are extorting, buyers need to make the call and say look I love this thing, I want it and I am willing to pay and if not then don’t buy it.

It is a very sticky situation.

 

[Hooked]

I haven't voted because perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about - I've neither bought nor sold vape stuff. However, from reading the comments above, my thoughts are as follows. If someone is continually selling things, then clearly they are attempting to be a vendor and not simply a private seller. That would be unfair to the genuine vendors if he's selling for BELOW market cost. But if he's is selling at ABOVE market cost well, it's a free world. Just as vendors have the right to determine their prices, so does an individual. Isn't it up to the seller to do his homework as to market prices? If he doesn't and he pays more than what he should, well, that's his problem, isn't it? If I'm wrong, please explain why.

 

[Strontium]

If flippers want to sell at a profit, fine, but do it somewhere else. Don't need those douchenozzles here, go to a site dedicated to that, there's plenty out there.