Flavour Concentrates - quality ?

[Skramrox]

Hi All,
All local suppliers of US/EU flavor concentrates get their stock from various international vendors. They order bulk then decant into little 10ml bottles for sale. They re-badge the little bottles .. or should I say 'they put a label' on it.

Now .. If I wanted to buy an ORIGINAL pair of Oakley sunglasses online I would look for things like 'original packaging' or do an authenticity code lookup on Oakley's web-site to make 100% sure its legit.

Here is the conundrum: With concentrates there is ZERO proof of being the ORIGINAL product.

My concerns:
- Is the source international vendor reputable ?
- Does the source vendor source direct from ORIGINAL flavor manufacturers ? (or some guy down the road?)
- Is it the same flavor I ordered ? (A v1 flavor could easily be rebadged as v2)
- Is it the same flavor vendor I ordered ? (If I buy local and they guy runs out of FA cherry he could easily just send me some Capella Cherry and label the bottle FA)
- What is the sell by date ? (flavors do have a shelf life)
- Did the source vendor dilute the product ?
- Did the local supplier dilute his 1L flavor with H20 and make 2L ? (This is SA guys .. I knew a guy that decanted cheap brandy into premium brandy bottles and sold them for DOUBLE the price - nobody ever found out !!!)

Why does all this matter to me ?
- DIY juice requires precise flavor replication
- old = bad
- diluted = bad
- not original = very very bad
- any of the above will lead to never being able to match any recipe you read online

tl/dr: Does anyone know of a SA supplier that stocks flavor concentrates in 'original sealed bottling' ???

Ps. This is not a rant ... I am genuinely concerned and must assume I am not the only one ?

 

[RichJB]

I don't think flavours are being relabeled. DIYers know what Strawberry Ripe tastes like. If you sell them Cap Strawberry Taffy rebranded as Strawberry Ripe, they will know. The same applies to v1 and v2 flavours, I would think. People know that you're not going to get that rich creamy buttery taste from most v2 versions.

Regarding sell-by date, there are no guarantees simply because the original manufacturer could cheat. I could buy direct from FA, who is to say that bottle of flavour hasn't been sitting in their warehouse for a year?

I would also doubt the dilution factor. Recipes call for very specific amounts and experienced DIYers would be able to tell if the concentration was halved. Remember also that DIYers tend to make batches on an ongoing basis. So a guy who mixes up Mustard Milk today was probably also making it a while back. He has a reference for what the recipe tastes like. If the flavour suddenly changes dramatically (which it will with 50% dilution), he is going to query it. If a vendor gets caught diluting even once, he is toast. Nobody will buy from him.

And then finally we have the factor that:
1) the original manufacturers have been caught cheating. Diacetyl in Flavor West concentrates, anybody?
2) original juice makers have been caught cheating. Or, at least, providing sub-optimal products. There was a scandal involving Five Pawns and diketone levels if Enyawreklaw is to be believed.

So there is the possibility to be screwed, whether you DIY or buy commercial juice. There are now counterfeit juices in circulation. Manufacturers could be loading their concentrates with diketones then proclaiming them to be diketone-free. The commercial juice-makers could be loading their juices with diketones and then pronouncing them to be diketone-free. All along the supply chain, suppliers could be passing on old or tainted stock. Palettes of concentrates or nic could have been left in the sun for a week because there wasn't space in the warehouse.

So you pays your money and you takes your chances. But that applies to everything in vaping. How do you know those 25R batteries you bought are legit? How do you know that your Tsunami isn't a clone? The best we can do is to rely on people to be vigilant and to out dodgy suppliers asap.

I must say, I have had no problems with DIY vendors locally. I am very confident that all my products have been legit and as clean and fresh as the vendors could do. The mere fact that vendors are often sold out of certain concentrates suggests to me that they are above board. Everybody wants Cap Sugar Cookie v1. Every vendor tells us "Sorry, no can do, we can't fly it in". If there was some guy saying "Sure, I can give you 100ml bottles of it at a bargain price of R250", then I'd be suspicious. But there isn't any vendor like that. I think our vendors are above board across the board.

 

[Skramrox]

Thanks for the reassurance

 

[rvdwesth]

It's a legit concern in my opinion.
I also believe the vaping community in RSA is very connected and outspoken on topics such as this. Should any vendor "cheat" on any of the issues above they will be out of business in a heartbeat.
My personal experience from many of the vendors on this forum I have supported is that they are all honest and reliable people, who not only run a business, but also love the vaping "cult". I find it hard to believe that any of these people will deliberately screw over any of us.
Crime does not pay in the long run....

 

[Anneries]

Hi @Skramrox
Funny, I just had this conversation with my borther's girlfriend, since price differences can be up to 50% more expensive from vendor to vendor. Looking at Capella for instance, some vendors sell it for R40 a 10ml bottle others R65 for the same 10ml. Not saying that the first vendor dillutes, it could be that the second vendor adds a premium to their prices. But it is something that makes me wary. And then, which one do you trust, the first one because it is more affordable, and that is the right price, or the second one because it is more expensive, so no way of it being old/diluted ?

Then I have heard from more than once source that a certain vendor does dilute concentrates, I can not verify this as I only have this vendor's concentrate and to me it seems ok, BUT I do not have the same concentrate from other vendors.

It is a toss-up at the end of the day, unless you import directly from the Company it self, there are too many places where something might be added/dates changed/labels fell off ... The list goes on.

PERSONALLY I feel that it is not a captive market anymore we have enough vendors, so doing something like diluting or selling old stock will not help a specific vendor save costs, since people will talk (as we are doing currently) and will move on to another vendor.

Possibly not really an answer, but just my take on the situation in the market today.

 

[Soutie]

Funny, I just had this conversation with my borther's girlfriend, since price differences can be up to 50% more expensive from vendor to vendor. Looking at Capella for instance, some vendors sell it for R40 a 10ml bottle others R65 for the same 10ml. Not saying that the first vendor dillutes, it could be that the second vendor adds a premium to their prices. But it is something that makes me wary. And then, which one do you trust, the first one because it is more affordable, and that is the right price, or the second one because it is more expensive, so no way of it being old/diluted ?

This is an interesting point and my take is this. The one vendor I can think of that is more expensive on a 10ml bottle has a range that is second to none, I mean they stock literally everything. If i need a hard to find concentrate they are my go to and I will pay the premium for that and at the same time I will order a whole whack of other flavours as to not have to pay double shipping.
This doesn't mean that the other guys have inferior quality flavors, just that their range is slightly smaller and they can move the stock quicker. It costs the vendor to have these niche concentrates sitting around and the business model is based around that.

 

[Nicholas]

I've only been on the forum for a month but already i don't buy or trust anyone that's not a trusted member of ecigssa, i feel a form of security dealing with people on the forum strictly because of how connected everyone is on here. like the points above if something was fishy you would definitley hear about it on here.

one thing i do wanna know and maybe some of the concentrate forum guys can answer, have any of you ordered from an international re seller or directly from the company and received something that was fishy or not the usual?

 

[Huffapuff]

As I'm a bit of a cynic I've also wondered about this - especially the diluting angle. The dilution wouldn't have to be as high as 50%, but 10% distilled water may slip by unnoticed.

I've been DIYing long enough now to have used every vendor in SA and I feel comfortable in saying that I don't think there's anything shady going on. Because we have choice we can compare concentrates bought from different vendors and so far I haven't picked up on anything out of the ordinary.

And as mentioned above - the DIYers here talk a lot and anyone trying to pull one over on us will be out of business pretty quickly.

 

[RichJB]

One aspect which hasn't been mentioned, but which keeps manufacturers and vendors generally honest, is that customers have the option of taking concentrates or juices to independent labs for analysis. This is how the Flavor West and Five Pawns issues came to light - people taking these liquids for lab analysis when the manufacturer declined to publish their figures or provide lab authentication proof. So it's a massive risk for anybody to take, their business hangs in the balance. It hasn't killed either FW or Five Pawns. But when DIY personalities like HIC note that FW have been less forthcoming about what is in their concentrates, you can be sure it's hurting their sales. Word of mouth is a very powerful weapon in this business.

Enyawreklaw has noted this in his videos: that he uses a fairly unusual concentrate in a published recipe and suddenly DIY vendors around the globe are out of it. I've seen it myself. Wayne puts Inawera Milk Chocolate in his recent Cuprian recipe, I pop into BLCK and - surprise, surprise - Richio is sold out of Inw Milk Chocolate. That flavour wouldn't move at all if Enyawreklaw hadn't used it.

 

[Soutie]

I guess as with any market there needs to be a level of trust from the consumer, How do you know for a fact that every single Macdonalds burger you buy is exactly what it says it is? How do I know for a fact the mince I buy at the butchery comes from a cow? Tescos in the U.K. Was caught for putting horsemeat and other crap in the burgers last year I think it was. With every product you have to put some level of faith in your supplier.

Having a supplier that's forthcoming with information is a huge step in the right direction and to be honest our DIY vendors, well the supporting ones on this site anyway, are brilliant and very forthcoming. Every single one I have dealt with, without fail, has been great. That gives me comfort, might be a little naive but makes me sleep better.

 

[Rude Rudi]

Mmmm...when I started my DIY journey, I got my first batch of goodies from a vendor based north of Joburg - they were cheap, rather pedestrian in their service and semi unorganised (I'm being nice now). I got my infamous dusty pear from there and they almost caused me to end my DIY adventure - purely because the flavours were mostly shite and everything I made using their ingredients tasted a bit 'off'. I questioned my mixology skills based purely on the crap I made with crap ingredients.

The concentrates were conveniently decanted in lovely blue bottles and I can with certainty say that most of the goodies I got there were not 100% kosher and certainly not to the quality as the original manufacturer intended.

I have never bought anything from them again and never will due to the fact that I now (6 months later) know the difference between Cap Vanilla Custard V1 and 'ouma's vanilla custard' labeled as the aforementioned.

I don't think it is unreasonable for us to request a copy of some sort of certification from the original manufacturer from the local suppliers - maybe some form of paperwork via the website?

I now order from the top guys (and recent new suppliers) as I know what I'm getting from specialist suppliers - not some wholesaler who will flog his gran's dentures for a quick buck and who sell anything from cabling to syringes...

You don't go to the hardware store to buy perfume....




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[Skramrox]

So .. i am not alone with these concerns.

For a new guy doing diy juice I just dont know the difference between a solid genuine flavor vs a diluted/tainted one. I will just note to myself that that flavor was crappy and never buy it again.

All i can ask .. as a noob .. is for the vendors to be honest. I will give you my cash .. just dont take me for a ride.

Like i asked previously .. does anyone actually sell in original 10ml botttles direct from supplier ?

I know thats not a 100% way of determining authenticity .. but it would make me feel less suspect.

Some local vendors have some dodge bottles/labels. Not like the pretty ones on the original vendor sites.

Even if the vendors just printed on their site that the flavours they sell are 100% original straight from supplier .. i think that would ease my suspicions. Which .. when you think about it .. is kind of wierd that it isnt printed on any local sites that i have found !

 

[Soutie]

importing in bulk is the issue I think. Our vendors don't import the branded 10ml bottles we hear about as it would push the costs up dramatically. They rather bring in larger bottles and decant when it hits our shores, this saves having to pay for hundreds of little bottles worth of space and weight to be shipped.

The concentrates between vendors taste pretty damn snap on between them, either they are legit of there is some HUGE collusion going on between the bunch of them. My money is on legit.

 

[Silver]

Hi @Skramrox

Have moved this to the "Who has stock" subforum so vendors will be comfortable to respond about their products if they choose to.

 

[YeOldeOke]

Even if the vendors just printed on their site that the flavours they sell are 100% original straight from supplier .. i think that would ease my suspicions. Which .. when you think about it .. is kind of wierd that it isnt printed on any local sites that i have found !

Maybe you haven't seen it.

https://e-cig.co.za/diy-notes/


Here's the thing. Especially FlavourArt, which is regarded worldwide as the Rolls Royce of flavours, sell in this country at a rate less than half the price of TFA if you take concentrations/e-liquid per 10ml concentrate into account. In fact, it appears to be the cheapest worldwide here in SA, on some sites. Here, at the tip of Africa with sky-high shipping costs. The brand is being prostituted here.

If you buy from FlavourArt directly, you are not allowed to undercut their pricing on their website. Yet people do.

I am from the DIY community. I DIY'ed for many years. FlavourArt and Inawera are what I cut my teeth on. But fancy bottles, quality guarantees and the lowest prices in the world in a tiny market at the end of the earth does not compute.

 

[therazia]

@YeOldOke now you've got me wondering as well

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[YeOldeOke]

@YeOldOke now you've got me wondering as well

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I'm not intimating that concentrates are being diluted, please don't get me wrong. I'm saying the DIY community has to take responsibility for what they get if the constant demand is only for lower prices, as was evidenced on a thread not long ago when vendors were accused of price gouging and now of possible collusion based on a couple of vendors that are selling at rediculous prices.

Vendors are in the business to make a profit after all. Else they'd go out of business. But there are also such things as business ethics and sustainablity.

I've had to move away from the idea of a wide DIY selection at fair prices because of this issue. That pains me, but the reality is most simply go for lowest price, to hell with sustainability. I've considered carrying Robertsons and Moirs

The China model, on steroids. Problem is the China model only works with a large market. SA market is small.

Pity. The DIY community in SA will be poorer for it in the long run. Guaranteed.

 

[NewOobY]

Hey everyone,

As a vendor I can say that most of the concentrates we sell have a sell by date - and some of these are even displayed on the bottles we purchase. But these dates are so far into the future - they only state that the concentrates need to be stored in a cool place. To maintain the longevity.

In terms of your comments regarding selling original bottles vs re-bottling. The simple reason is that it would cost much more, because we get a discount when purchasing the larger quantities like 1L and above - yes we do get a discounted price for normal 10ml bottles as well, but it is still expensive even with the discount. Therefore we purchase the bigger quantities so that we can pass on that saving to the consumer. Well at least this is how I see it and how I operate. I do however bring in some original bottles, but this is not the norm it is more the exception. Thing is the original bottles cost R20 more per 10ml - and we DIY because we want the cheapest possible way to maintain our habit. For instance I wont pay R20 more per 10ml for a concentrate just because it is in an original bottle. Especially if I know that the rebottled product is exactly the same. My opinion of course, I'm a cheap skate.

In terms of price difference across the various vendors, this is explained as follows. Remember not so long ago the concentrate business was kind of a monopoly, there were only a few players involved. As such the existing vendors could charge what they want, and now they already have there customer base. Further to that, they carry a large variety of stock and we need to pay for that variety. I still purchase many concentrates from the other vendors, because they have a much larger variety than what I do. In my personal capacity as a DIY-er I have more concentrate variations than what I sell, this is just the way it is when starting out. Most newly created shops compete on price, and we try to get the variety - but i'm working on price for now and slowly building my variety.

Then lastly we are a DIY community, which means we all try to help each other out as far as possible. Doing something to screw with people is just plain stupid, and is not the DIY way. People will make it known, and as such the business will not be used by anyone. For instance diluting concentrates, fraudulently stating a concentrate is something it is not, selling old stock i.e sell by date passed. Will all be to the detriment of the business operating like that.

I do what I do to help the DIY community, making DIY ez and affordable.

This is my opinion and could probably be viewed differently. I rebottle concentrate to pass on my saving to my customers, we make enough profit to not have to be dogey or do dogey stuff. Yes I may not make as much as others, but I still make it worth it for myself to spend the time bottling etc.
DIY is

 

[rvdwesth]

Hey everyone,

As a vendor I can say that most of the concentrates we sell have a sell by date - and some of these are even displayed on the bottles we purchase. But these dates are so far into the future - they only state that the concentrates need to be stored in a cool place. To maintain the longevity.

In terms of your comments regarding selling original bottles vs re-bottling. The simple reason is that it would cost much more, because we get a discount when purchasing the larger quantities like 1L and above - yes we do get a discounted price for normal 10ml bottles as well, but it is still expensive even with the discount. Therefore we purchase the bigger quantities so that we can pass on that saving to the consumer. Well at least this is how I see it and how I operate. I do however bring in some original bottles, but this is not the norm it is more the exception. Thing is the original bottles cost R20 more per 10ml - and we DIY because we want the cheapest possible way to maintain our habit. For instance I wont pay R20 more per 10ml for a concentrate just because it is in an original bottle. Especially if I know that the rebottled product is exactly the same. My opinion of course, I'm a cheap skate.

In terms of price difference across the various vendors, this is explained as follows. Remember not so long ago the concentrate business was kind of a monopoly, there were only a few players involved. As such the existing vendors could charge what they want, and now they already have there customer base. Further to that, they carry a large variety of stock and we need to pay for that variety. I still purchase many concentrates from the other vendors, because they have a much larger variety than what I do. In my personal capacity as a DIY-er I have more concentrate variations than what I sell, this is just the way it is when starting out. Most newly created shops compete on price, and we try to get the variety - but i'm working on price for now and slowly building my variety.

Then lastly we are a DIY community, which means we all try to help each other out as far as possible. Doing something to screw with people is just plain stupid, and is not the DIY way. People will make it known, and as such the business will not be used by anyone. For instance diluting concentrates, fraudulently stating a concentrate is something it is not, selling old stock i.e sell by date passed. Will all be to the detriment of the business operating like that.

I do what I do to help the DIY community, making DIY ez and affordable.

This is my opinion and could probably be viewed differently. I rebottle concentrate to pass on my saving to my customers, we make enough profit to not have to be dogey or do dogey stuff. Yes I may not make as much as others, but I still make it worth it for myself to spend the time bottling etc.
DIY is

Very Very well said !!

 

[Anneries]

@NewOobY thank you for getting involved, and that is the last point I was making in my response. The vaping community in South Africa is so close on this forum, that you guys can not take a chance to sell diluted/expired stock.

Its about time to stock up on my concentrates and I see you have a nice special going, so it might just be that we order from you. My brother is looking for CAP Sugar Cookie and we see you have in stock, so great!