Flavour Differences beween kit

Intuthu Kagesi

Intuthu Kagesi

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Hi Everyone,
Can someone please explain why I get such huge discrepancies in flavour on different kit in relatively simple language.

I guess I am primarily a MTL flavour chaser, that occasionally hits a good DL cloud. So inspired by the happenings on this forum this morning, decided to juice up everything with the same juice, (Nooken MTL 12mg), and do a lil' "back to back" with the following;

A SMOK Stick17, a Fetch and Fetch Pro, (with pretty much every possible Nord and RPM coil, including RBA's), as well as an Vaporesso 220W mod with the SKRR, Zeus-X, Zeus X Mesh, and Vapefly Mesh Plus RDA's, and ... {drum roll} ... the best flavour came from the cheapest pisha, (my stealth vape) ... the friggen Stick M17 ... WTF!!!!

Not to be outdone, I re-coiled and wicked the lot of em', and ... same same, irrespective of power levels on all (bar the Stick, as it's kinda stuck on it's preset whatever level).
Runner up would have to be my Vapefly Mesh Plus, (which for the record, is also a relative "cheapie") :rolleyes:
 
Intuthu Kagesi said:
Hi Everyone,
Can someone please explain why I get such huge discrepancies in flavour on different kit in relatively simple language.

I guess I am primarily a MTL flavour chaser, that occasionally hits a good DL cloud. So inspired by the happenings on this forum this morning, decided to juice up everything with the same juice, (Nooken MTL 12mg), and do a lil' "back to back" with the following;

A SMOK Stick17, a Fetch and Fetch Pro, (with pretty much every possible Nord and RPM coil, including RBA's), as well as an Vaporesso 220W mod with the SKRR, Zeus-X, Zeus X Mesh, and Vapefly Mesh Plus RDA's, and ... {drum roll} ... the best flavour came from the cheapest pisha, (my stealth vape) ... the friggen Stick M17 ... WTF!!!!

Not to be outdone, I re-coiled and wicked the lot of em', and ... same same, irrespective of power levels on all (bar the Stick, as it's kinda stuck on it's preset whatever level).
Runner up would have to be my Vapefly Mesh Plus, (which for the record, is also a relative "cheapie") :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I'm no expert, but my guess would be coil placement and airflow differences in the different atties? Iirc the higher the coil placement, the more flavor and the lower the placement, the better the nic hit. The differences in how the air hits the coil in the different atties would also contribute to the difference in flavor.
 
baksteen8168 said:
I'm no expert, but my guess would be coil placement and airflow differences in the different atties? Iirc the higher the coil placement, the more flavor and the lower the placement, the better the nic hit. The differences in how the air hits the coil in the different atties would also contribute to the difference in flavor.
Click to expand...

Thanks Baksteen,
Let me go an experiment a little with coil placement :)
 
So here's an interesting interim observation ... If I open up the air flow and increase the wattage substantially from my typical 20-25 to 45, (altho' I get a far less restricted hit compared to the friggen stick), I start approaching the same flavour as the stick :headbang:
 
The bottom line for flavor is getting the most vapor to your mouth in the shortest time.
And there are numerous factors that determine that like .....

1) coil placement
2) inner chamber design
3) driptip diameter and length
4) type and amount of airflow
5) type of coil and cotton being used
6) strength of the draw
7) power delivery to the coil
8) chimney length
9) speed of saturation
10) surface area of the coil
11) tightness / density of the cotton
12) cotton placement
13) flavor profile and percentage flavorings
14) PG/VG ratio ......... and probably a few more.

Hence it can take ages of experience to find that happy place. :)
 
@Intuthu Kagesi I agree. For something that is "cheap, mass produced scrap" I get constant and great flavour from my Smok Baby v2. Coils are expensive, but it damn well delivers on the performance.
No fiddling around with coil placement or wicking. Just lock, load and booom, flavour town!
IMG_20200824_093040.jpg
 
KZOR said:
The bottom line for flavor is getting the most vapor to your mouth in the shortest time.
And there are numerous factors that determine that like .....

1) coil placement
2) inner chamber design
3) driptip diameter and length
4) type and amount of airflow
5) type of coil and cotton being used
6) strength of the draw
7) power delivery to the coil
8) chimney length
9) speed of saturation
10) surface area of the coil
11) tightness / density of the cotton
12) cotton placement
13) flavor profile and percentage flavorings
14) PG/VG ratio ......... and probably a few more.

Hence it can take ages of experience to find that happy place. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks Kzor,
I was hoping for one or two items to address, that's a friggen lifetime of experimentation you've shared :facepalm:
Not that I don't appreciate it ... yet, all things being equal here; How would you determine the optimal value(s) of each of the criterion you listed, (bar items 2 and 8), and what are the trade-off's? (taking for example Baksteens input on Coil Placement affecting Nic uptake and flavour, above ... and having to in essence choose between the two.
Moving to item 3, the drip tip ... Admittedly I prefer a 510 / narrower tip ... (I assume those with erm "bent" sexual preferences preferring an 810 :eek:) ... but how would diameter and length affect or effect flavour?
 
@Intuthu Kagesi - its great that you tried out all the gear with the same juice for a side by side comparison.

Each person is also different. Some like a tighter draw, some like it airier
Some like lots of throat hit (like me) - some prefer smoother vapes.
As far as flavour itself goes, some like a lot of vapour at once (bigger DL rigs) while some prefer less volume but more accuracy
Then you get the richness of the vapour - it can be dense and "thick" of flavour or a bit more diluted.
Then some prefer crisper sharper flavour while others prefer more rounded deeper "bass notes"

It really is a minefield when you also consider that each juice also changes things...

for me, I prefer MTL these days
I like it deep and rich with a lot of throat hit
For fruity menthols, I like it crisp and defined
Not into volume but rather flavour accuracy

So I have set up my vapes to get me closer to my happy place. Also continually evolving as one tries out new kit. But I have my favourites set up for each major juice - and use those frequently.

By the way, expensive gear doesnt necessarily produce better flavour - its more about you setting it up to how you like it. A well set up cheapie will be far more pleasurable than an expensive device that hasnt been set up to ones liking.
 
Dela Rey Steyn said:
No fiddling around with coil placement or wicking. Just lock, load and booom, flavour town
Click to expand...

I think that you have answered all of @KZOR 's points here. Smok, and the other manufacturers, have done all of the work for us. One would assume that their R&D department has experimented with all of the issues that have been identified to increase flavour and come up with their best solution. In your case the Smok Baby v2. Coils. With all of the ëxperts"and experience they have at their disposal the V2 is their best bet in their RTA. They then attempt to reproduce this in the thousands of coils they sell to the public. Even they, the vape manufacturers (not just Smok), sometimes get it wrong and we talk about getting a bad batch of coils.

We buy an expensive RTA, for example, and are faced with a deck to build on. We must then go through all of the points raised by @KZOR and others and try to get the best out of the RTA. From personal experience I can guarantee you that, if by chance your first build was perfect, and you changed only one element slightly you may well get really bad flavour out of the "same" next build.

If you are merely rewicking this perfect first time build you may inadvertently change several vital factors. You may have wicked tighter of looser. You may have thinned the wicks more or less. Your wicking material may be touching the bottom of the juice wells. You may have slightly moved the coils when pulling the cotton through them. You may have damaged one of the coils when strumming them etc., etc.

IMO there are very few bad Attys made today. I'm only talking about flavour production here. If a modern Atty is correctly built it should produce good to excellent flavour. There is an additional problem here. It may perform at it's best in a particular configuration. For example loose DL with an exotic coil at high wattage (low Ohm). This same RTA may not perform very well with a restricted DL with a simple clapton at lower wattage (higher Ohm).

We have a choice as vapers.

We can buy pre-made coils and use them in a sub-ohm RTA, or we can make our own coils and install them ourselves in a rebuildable RTA. The former method is almost risk-free when it comes to flavour. There are some excellent pre-made coils out there nowadays, particularly mesh.

If we decide to go with the rebuildable option we face many obstacles to a flavourful vape. We must meet all of @KZOR 's 14 factors plus several more to get excellent flavour.

Like an idiot I tend to follow the more difficult rebuildable path. In my defense it is more satisfying, to me, when it works well.

I do however always have a Mystique 0.15 Ohm mesh disposable Atty on hand for when I am just too lazy to bother to rebuild or rewick. Excellent flavour, no leaking and no experience or brain required (apart from battery safety).
 
Thanks for your replies Dela Rey Steyn, Silver, and Puff the Magic Dragon,

You're correct in that most of the "plug and play" coils offer a pretty good vape experience, however they are relatively expensive when you really get into it, which has been one of the many reasons leading to my crossing the Rubicon and investing in rebuildables.

I guess some more honesty from my part is required here ... I am a retired engineer with both an inquiring and enquiring mind and a sh# load of time on my hands, (particularly so with our illustrious Command Councils current laws), couple that with a new vaping hobby, a perfectionist streak, (along with a few other unmentionable traits), and we have my need to understand "stuff" ... also, having studied atomisation briefly at varsity around the time ol' Jan landed in the Cape, know that there is indeed a scientific explanation ... I jus' have no idea what it may be, (I'll park that behind my "old-timers" for now tho').

I also get that R&D engineers have designed specific kit for specific purpose, (including the rebuildables), where for example it seems coil placement effects nic vs. flavour atomisation, which brings me back to my earlier question of why I get such huge discrepancies in flavour on different kit, I only asked as I'd love to know how to level the playing field with my various rigs and how to get what I like out of each, such as a good throat hit, smallish smoke plumes similar to what I got back in my stinkie smoking days, along with a good "how's your grandmother" dose of nicotene to placate my ADD ... throwing in an interesting smell, (flavour in this context), is a fat bonus.

Maybe I need to position my query a little differently, and go straight for the jugular asking what elements of a mod affect and effect the key outputs, (key outputs in my case being nic, flavour, smoke volume, and heat), and what their interdependancies are ... in laymans terms; How the f# does one improve nic atomisation, flavour, throat hit, and smoke volume, (and any other important "stuffs" I may have left out)?

I really think some sort of "Idiots Guide to Vaping" could evolve from this discussion, and provide "Newbies" with a better way of moving into vaping than the way I did it, throwing copious quantities of cash at the problem ... Your thoughts?
 
Dela Rey Steyn said:
@Intuthu Kagesi I agree. For something that is "cheap, mass produced scrap" I get constant and great flavour from my Smok Baby v2. Coils are expensive, but it damn well delivers on the performance.
No fiddling around with coil placement or wicking. Just lock, load and booom, flavour town!
View attachment 205422
Click to expand...

I love SMOK coils! On my Eleaf iJust 3s, I now use SMOK V8 Baby Mesh coils (0.15ohm). Not only do they give better flavour than the Eleaf coils, but they last longer too. What a blessing that they're compatible with the iJust3!!
 
Intuthu Kagesi said:
Hi Everyone,
Can someone please explain why I get such huge discrepancies in flavour on different kit in relatively simple language.

I guess I am primarily a MTL flavour chaser, that occasionally hits a good DL cloud. So inspired by the happenings on this forum this morning, decided to juice up everything with the same juice, (Nooken MTL 12mg), and do a lil' "back to back" with the following;

A SMOK Stick17, a Fetch and Fetch Pro, (with pretty much every possible Nord and RPM coil, including RBA's), as well as an Vaporesso 220W mod with the SKRR, Zeus-X, Zeus X Mesh, and Vapefly Mesh Plus RDA's, and ... {drum roll} ... the best flavour came from the cheapest pisha, (my stealth vape) ... the friggen Stick M17 ... WTF!!!!

Not to be outdone, I re-coiled and wicked the lot of em', and ... same same, irrespective of power levels on all (bar the Stick, as it's kinda stuck on it's preset whatever level).
Runner up would have to be my Vapefly Mesh Plus, (which for the record, is also a relative "cheapie") :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Many vapers deride Smok, but I think it's the old-timers who do so. Apparently Smok didn't have a good reputation years ago, but nowadays there's nothing wrong with it! And the Smok coils are great!!!!
 
One of my theories is that each coil and atty combination will produce a different composition of vapour. To try and put this into words I will use smarties.

Now we all like the blue ones but what you don't now is that the blue ones only taste so good for a nano second, whereby the red ones last for a good half a second and the brown ones stick to your tongue for a full minute. So when you mush them together you get a unique taste. just eat the blue ones and they taste just like blue ones.

ITO vaping it is the variables across our tongue receptors that pick up the differences between the amount of juice mixed into the airflow and the heat applied. Even with the same tank and juice there can be variables due to airflow and juice amount due to wicking. I think most re builders will experience this because if you build your own coils there may be some slight variances. You may not see them but your tongue don't lie.

Commercial machine built coils may be more consistent (not always) but they will also project a different flavour profile for the reasons above if used in different atties. How come you say, well let's just take chimney size for example. Example A might just be slighter bigger volume than example B and may dilute the particles in the juice that your receptors are picking up. So even if the coil and wattage is the same, the composition of the vapour will vary.

That's my theory and NO I am not sharing my smarties.
 
Intuthu Kagesi said:
Thanks for your replies Dela Rey Steyn, Silver, and Puff the Magic Dragon,

You're correct in that most of the "plug and play" coils offer a pretty good vape experience, however they are relatively expensive when you really get into it, which has been one of the many reasons leading to my crossing the Rubicon and investing in rebuildables.

I guess some more honesty from my part is required here ... I am a retired engineer with both an inquiring and enquiring mind and a sh# load of time on my hands, (particularly so with our illustrious Command Councils current laws), couple that with a new vaping hobby, a perfectionist streak, (along with a few other unmentionable traits), and we have my need to understand "stuff" ... also, having studied atomisation briefly at varsity around the time ol' Jan landed in the Cape, know that there is indeed a scientific explanation ... I jus' have no idea what it may be, (I'll park that behind my "old-timers" for now tho').

I also get that R&D engineers have designed specific kit for specific purpose, (including the rebuildables), where for example it seems coil placement effects nic vs. flavour atomisation, which brings me back to my earlier question of why I get such huge discrepancies in flavour on different kit, I only asked as I'd love to know how to level the playing field with my various rigs and how to get what I like out of each, such as a good throat hit, smallish smoke plumes similar to what I got back in my stinkie smoking days, along with a good "how's your grandmother" dose of nicotene to placate my ADD ... throwing in an interesting smell, (flavour in this context), is a fat bonus.

Maybe I need to position my query a little differently, and go straight for the jugular asking what elements of a mod affect and effect the key outputs, (key outputs in my case being nic, flavour, smoke volume, and heat), and what their interdependancies are ... in laymans terms; How the f# does one improve nic atomisation, flavour, throat hit, and smoke volume, (and any other important "stuffs" I may have left out)?

I really think some sort of "Idiots Guide to Vaping" could evolve from this discussion, and provide "Newbies" with a better way of moving into vaping than the way I did it, throwing copious quantities of cash at the problem ... Your thoughts?
Click to expand...

hi @Intuthu Kagesi

A lot to unpack here and it’s still a learning journey for me

But from my observations the atomization depends on surface area of the coil and the efficiency of wicking - ie taking just enough liquid to the coil surface to be turned into vapour.

Volume of Vapour depends on surface area of coil so bigger the coil the more Vapour

But

The amount of air plays a role too. And the temperature also determines the overall experience. If it’s too cold you might not like it. If too hot also not.

And size of the atomizer limits you to coil choices.

As far as experimenting goes you can try the following
- coil placement up or down usually determines level of throat hit for me. Higher up closer to mouth I get more TH

- coil placement closer to air hole or air intake is usually better for flavour but it does depend on the atty

- thicker wire usually leads to more volume of Vapour and more surface area. Also lower resistance. But then coil mass is more so it may take longer to heat up. You can experiment with different thickness of wires. I find thinner wire gives me faster ramp and crisper vape. Which I like generally. But for desserts a more rounded vape is better for me hence thicker wire.

Best is to try out something and change one thing at a time making notes as you go.

Have done this extensively a while back for a few of my attire until I got what I thought was the best vape for those arrows for the juices I vape in them. (I usually lock an atty and juice together once dialed in)

there’s so much to discover with vaping. And it can get quite technical when one goes into it into detail but at the end of the day I find it better to make practical changes and see what happens.

Let us know how it goes and what you discover.

Learning never stops with vaping.
 
Stranger said:
One of my theories is that each coil and atty combination will produce a different composition of vapour. To try and put this into words I will use smarties.

Now we all like the blue ones but what you don't now is that the blue ones only taste so good for a nano second, whereby the red ones last for a good half a second and the brown ones stick to your tongue for a full minute. So when you mush them together you get a unique taste. just eat the blue ones and they taste just like blue ones.

ITO vaping it is the variables across our tongue receptors that pick up the differences between the amount of juice mixed into the airflow and the heat applied. Even with the same tank and juice there can be variables due to airflow and juice amount due to wicking. I think most re builders will experience this because if you build your own coils there may be some slight variances. You may not see them but your tongue don't lie.

Commercial machine built coils may be more consistent (not always) but they will also project a different flavour profile for the reasons above if used in different atties. How come you say, well let's just take chimney size for example. Example A might just be slighter bigger volume than example B and may dilute the particles in the juice that your receptors are picking up. So even if the coil and wattage is the same, the composition of the vapour will vary.

That's my theory and NO I am not sharing my smarties.
Click to expand...

I can't argue as I don't have enough experience in the game as yet, and ... I do like your analogy Stranger:pancarta: ... maybe you're right, and this is an art, not a science, and it's the silly little nuances that make the difference ... F### ... I need a coffee :icon_cafe:
 
It's both an art and science, like cooking.
What I find really weird is that if you were a smoker, you found your brand and stuck to it. I never even used to take stinkies from friends if they offered if they were a different brand.

So we are spoilt for choice right now and to make it worse, we know we can change things ...... so we do.

Bloody stupid creatures humans
 
Silver said:
hi @Intuthu Kagesi

A lot to unpack here and it’s still a learning journey for me

But from my observations the atomization depends on surface area of the coil and the efficiency of wicking - ie taking just enough liquid to the coil surface to be turned into vapour.

Volume of Vapour depends on surface area of coil so bigger the coil the more Vapour

But

The amount of air plays a role too. And the temperature also determines the overall experience. If it’s too cold you might not like it. If too hot also not.

And size of the atomizer limits you to coil choices.

As far as experimenting goes you can try the following
- coil placement up or down usually determines level of throat hit for me. Higher up closer to mouth I get more TH

- coil placement closer to air hole or air intake is usually better for flavour but it does depend on the atty

- thicker wire usually leads to more volume of Vapour and more surface area. Also lower resistance. But then coil mass is more so it may take longer to heat up. You can experiment with different thickness of wires. I find thinner wire gives me faster ramp and crisper vape. Which I like generally. But for desserts a more rounded vape is better for me hence thicker wire.

Best is to try out something and change one thing at a time making notes as you go.

Have done this extensively a while back for a few of my attire until I got what I thought was the best vape for those arrows for the juices I vape in them. (I usually lock an atty and juice together once dialed in)

there’s so much to discover with vaping. And it can get quite technical when one goes into it into detail but at the end of the day I find it better to make practical changes and see what happens.

Let us know how it goes and what you discover.

Learning never stops with vaping.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Silver,

I'm going to take your advice and keep a log on each atty / rig, and experiment in earnest ...
I certainly have plenty to go on with everyone's, (much appreciated), input, and I'll keep you updated ...
Thanks again :)

PS: I've begun the "isolate an atty for a particular juice" already :aaaaa:
 
OK, see ya

200w.gif
 
Stranger said:
It's both an art and science, like cooking.
What I find really weird is that if you were a smoker, you found your brand and stuck to it. I never even used to take stinkies from friends if they offered if they were a different brand.

So we are spoilt for choice right now and to make it worse, we know we can change things ...... so we do.

Bloody stupid creatures humans
Click to expand...

You're right about them stinkies ... I use to smoke Camel Classic, and all others were sh# full stop ... I never gave myself the opportunity to try an alternative!
There's an old maxim of ... Never offer options if you wish to close off / finalise something ... and that is where I find myself now ... a sh# load of options and variables :facepalm:
 
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