How 'bad' is onboard charging?

[Lingogrey]

I would like to find out why exactly it seems to be generally accepted (most recently that I've seen, stated in this thread: http://www.ecigssa.co.za/batteries-where-to-buy-quality-at-good-prices.t17446/#post-298915) that charging li-ion batteries in a dedicated external intelligent charger seems to be better practice than charging them in the mods that offer the function to charge them in the mod.

I suspect that part of the answer lies in the "dedicated" and "intelligent", but I am wondering to what extent this function has been improved in especially some of the newer mods.

As I've only used single 18650 mods up to thus far, I've diligently recharged my batteries in my Xtar MC1 (single cell and slow, but quite a good charger) up until now. Having just got a RX200 and as I'm only buying a 4 / 6 cell charger next month (too much other new stuff for December already), I'm specifically interested if somebody knows anything about the onboard charging on the RX200.

If onboard charging is 'bad', would it only be harmful to the batteries (enough of a concern) or possibly damaging to the mod circuitry as well?

@johan - I would appreciate your expert opinion on this matter?

 

[shaunnadan]

My big thing is the charging of married batteries.

I feel comfort in knowing my 220v charger is charging all of my batteries evenly.

My appi has nitecore that uses usb to charge it. He then plugs in his Samsung cellphone charger and you can see 1 battery charging at a time, not cool at all

I understand that a cell charger doesn't have the amperage output (eg 2A) to charge both batteries simultaneously and we should be using a proper charger but it just allows for a can of worms to be opened .

As far as using my mods USB port to charge I'm 100% comfortable with a single 18650 batt , a lipo in an Istick BUT NEVER for my rolo!

Broken USB port from charging and then I'm stuck without escribe function... Never days !

 

[johan]

I would like to find out why exactly it seems to be generally accepted (most recently that I've seen, stated in this thread: http://www.ecigssa.co.za/batteries-where-to-buy-quality-at-good-prices.t17446/#post-298915) that charging li-ion batteries in a dedicated external intelligent charger seems to be better practice than charging them in the mods that offer the function to charge them in the mod.

I suspect that part of the answer lies in the "dedicated" and "intelligent", but I am wondering to what extent this function has been improved in especially some of the newer mods.

As I've only used single 18650 mods up to thus far, I've diligently recharged my batteries in my Xtar MC1 (single cell and slow, but quite a good charger) up until now. Having just got a RX200 and as I'm only buying a 4 / 6 cell charger next month (too much other new stuff for December already), I'm specifically interested if somebody knows anything about the onboard charging on the RX200.

If onboard charging is 'bad', would it only be harmful to the batteries (enough of a concern) or possibly damaging to the mod circuitry as well?

@johan - I would appreciate your expert opinion on this matter?

First of all, I'm no expert. I've also picked it up on the mentioned thread. Doesn't make sense to me at all. 99.9% of all China made chargers (build-in or external) make use of the following charging IC (Integrated Circuit - not a f#@ chip): TP4056 (manufactured by NanjingTop Power ASIC Corp.) In build-in units, the current resistor is chosen for either 250mA or 500mA maximum charging, and in external units for 1A maximum (refer pics below). Also attached datasheet for the techies.

​

 

[Lingogrey]

Thanks very much @shaunnadan and @johan! (Johan - I've just picked up the idea over some time from reading various posts on the forum that you're regarded as one of the resident battery and electronics experts on the forum).

Shaunnadan - it makes complete sense to me what you're saying about possibly breaking the usb port whilst charging, rendering it useless for EScribe (would be less of a tragedy for the RX200, but still the end of any future firmware updates). However, I'm not sure that I'm understanding the rest of your post correctly. Would the onboard charging of the Reuleaux (or of dual cell mods) not do balanced charging of the batteries? Would they charge one cell at a time or both / three cells simultaneously but simply not at completely balanced currents? (I genuinely don't know these things)

Johan - would I be correct in interpreting from your reply (and my laboured attempt at trying to understand the attached file ) that onboard charging would be nearly identical to "dedicated intelligent" charging?

Sorry guys - I'm really very stupid as far as this stuff is concerned , but do take battery safety seriously - so I rather ask than assume

 

[johan]

@Lingogrey, onboard charging of single cell (Li or Li-po) are almost identical to 1 bay of a "dedicated intelligent" external charger (just the constant current curve might be different; 500mA vs 1A). External balanced chargers (normally found only for multi-cell Lithium polymer chargers, ie: RC planes or quadcopter batteries) are a bit different in topology. To achieve the almost exact same charge for 2 or more batteries (same brand, model and batch), use the same bay in an external charger, charging the batteries one at a time, as the exact charging rate (constant current and constant voltage) may differ from bay to bay in the same external "dedicated intelligent" charger. Hope this clarify your question/s.

 

[Lingogrey]

@Lingogrey, onboard charging of single cell (Li or Li-po) are almost identical to 1 bay of a "dedicated intelligent" external charger (just the constant current curve might be different; 500mA vs 1A). External balanced chargers (normally found only for multi-cell Lithium polymer chargers, ie: RC planes or quadcopter batteries) are a bit different in topology. To achieve the almost exact same charge for 2 or more batteries (same brand, model and batch), use the same bay in an external charger, charging the batteries one at a time, as the exact charging rate (constant current and constant voltage) may differ from bay to bay in the same external "dedicated intelligent" charger. Hope this clarify your question/s.

Thanks very much @johan!

 

[andro]

personally i believe that no mod is forever , and i charge mine everyday with the usb port. I used it on the computer with escribe and u can see that does actually a good job on keeping the battery at the same level. If i ll ruin it by doin that .......will be time for a new mod .

 

[stevie g]

Laptops have multiple 18650 cells and they charge just fine. Either method of charging is fine. The Rolo is a mission to remove and put in batteries I would just use onboard.

 

[WHeunis]

I personally don't believe that there is much to the notion that on-device charging is bad, not in and of itself, anyway.
Is it perhaps BETTER to do externally? Some would say so, but evidence is not abundant beyond circumstantial.

With all that said (or not said), I do find some comfort that Evolv (dna200) actually specifically developed 3way balance charging for the DNA200 board. Something completely unheard of in electronics!
Most electronics manufacturers would simply opt to use a balance charger external, supplied with the device or sold separately.
But, with the DNA200 actually having 3way balance charging onboard, I have absolutely NO concerns with onboard charging whatsoever.

Is there a possibility that this could run my batteries down faster, cycle-wise? Yes.
Do I think that this is a serious concern? No.

As for mentions of USB ports breaking... I dunno what you gents do to your mods, or what hellish tortures you put it through every day, but 4 mods later in my vapelife (ALL with USB ports that I use daily, or every other day), I have yet to snap a USB port on any of my devices.

 

[Silver]

Hi @Lingogrey

Good thread and i have enjoyed reading the posts, thanks all

From my perspective its quite simple. I have an external charger mainly because i dont want to have to charge batteries inside my mod tethered to a cable. So i prefer to have fresh ones ready for when the ones in the mod go flat

On the other hand,

My understanding is that its better for long term battery life to charge them slower, not faster. So that would actually go against my external dedicated charger practice. The onboard chargers via USB are typically much slower.

I dont see why its better technically to use an external charger other than speed and convenience.

 

[Kuhlkatz]

The DNA-200 board is designed for use with 3 cell Lipo batteries and includes balanced charging for it. For 18650 applications, Evolve has a specific adapter, which we can only assume that the Reuleaux DNA-200 is using. This is from the DNA-200 spec sheet (p 10) :

If you are manufacturing a device that is designed to be used with three individual replaceable 18650 cells, an accessory board is available from Evolv to adapt from three individual cells to a pack and tap connector pinout, as well as provide cell-by-cell protection against incorrectly installed or reversed cells.

As far as the Rolo RX-200 is concerned, this is from their OWN site, under the Charging heading @ http://www.wismec.com/product/reuleaux-rx200/

This does not tell me that they have 100% faith in their own charge port and circuitry to deliver what is required to charge 3 x 18650s together.

Most of the dual 18650 mods does not allow charging via the USB and requires a external charger and 'married' batteries that are individually charged to maximum capacity and then re-used to power the same device. Married in this case means 'preferred' same max power rating, same manufacturer, same discharge rate specs and always used together. It's not only mods that require this, but most devices that use multiple cells and higher than normal discharge rates recommends using same type, age etc. batteries to be used together. This is true for even AA and AAA cell applications. This just ensures equal drain across all batteries, as higher than normal drain on one can cause heat generation, which might be problematic.

As far as single cell applications are concerned, I also cannot see why there is a need to have an external charger, unless you know the internal one is buggered. If you have an external charger and a number of 18650s, it's obviously simpler to replace the flat cell with a freshly charged one and carry on vaping instead of waiting for 3 hours.

 

[Heino13]

For me it's simple
During week I charge with USB
And once a week at least I charge with external
External to me must be better for overall battery life as charger is pricey and must have better capabilities to do what it is designed for

 

[Lingogrey]

Thanks to all for the very informative replies above! @Kuhlkatz - Thanks, the manufacturer's info should actually be the place to start and I should really have posted that info in my OP (my question was also a general one, but I did indicate that I was specifically interested in the RX200 charging). On this Fasttech thread: https://www.fasttech.com/forums/3861801/t/1926336/balance-charging-on-rx200-and-dna-version/4 that I found after posting the question, it seems that some are of the opinion that Wismec (not only on the product page, but in an e-mail reply to one of the posters on that thread) are simply trying to 'cover themselves' by recommending external charging, but I would still wonder why they would feel the need to do that if they felt 100% confident (as you rightly indicated).

What I did find to be of some interest is the following thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic...uleaux_rx200_internal_charging_is_it_safe_to/ where it is indicated that one can check the voltage on the batteries by pressing all three buttons simultaneously for 10 seconds whilst the mod is off.

I charged all three my (new) 25 R's individually in my Xtar MC 1 before first use in the RX200 and recharged them in the Reuleaux when they reached half. When I checked them a few minutes ago using the above (of course, I don't know how accurate the indicator is) each of the batteries were the exact same voltage (3.63) and after vaping for a few minutes more two of them were at 3.62 and the third at 3.63.

Whilst I will still get a 4 bay external charger soon, this (in combination with all the very informative replies above, although not all support this conclusion - and there's still the question mark as to Wismec's hesitance) has somewhat put my mind at rest with the RX200's onboard charging for the meantime.

Just thought I'd share this if there are other RX200 owners in the same situation.

 

[Kuhlkatz]

@Lingogrey , thanks for that info. So it seems that they are limited to draw max 1A while charging via the USB port, which is likely why they suggest external charging. It's based more on the time it would take to fully charge 3 x 18650s at 333 mA each, vs maybe 500 mA or higher supported per bay on external chargers. idol_slayer on the reddit thread mentioned that when plugged in at 1/4 battery life remaining, it was still not fully charged after almost 6 hours.
It would likely benefit Wismec if they state a one liner reason for recommending external charging vs using the USB. On the other hand, it could also question the design as to why only allow 1A total vs something higher ?

It would be interesting to hear what charge times the Rolo DNA-200 and RX-200 owners experience with their units - especially if they mention the battery capacity i.e. 2100/2500/3000mAh.

 

[Redeemer]

I have only charged my batteries on the D4 and LUC BLU6, and today used the on-board of the RX200...
Using the off + Fire + up+down I can verify the 3 batteries are charging equal, same voltage shows for all 3 as they chsrge up, using a 700mAh charger, its slow but consistent.
The board is building up a bit of heat, but the ambient temp is quite high too.
Overall, onboard charging seems to work just fine, load balanced, and mod is still vaping happy!

 

[Redeemer]

And I'm using LG HG2's, browns, and charge is picking up equal through the three cells, @ 3000mAh.

 

[BumbleBee]

@Lingogrey , thanks for that info. So it seems that they are limited to draw max 1A while charging via the USB port, which is likely why they suggest external charging. It's based more on the time it would take to fully charge 3 x 18650s at 333 mA each, vs maybe 500 mA or higher supported per bay on external chargers. idol_slayer on the reddit thread mentioned that when plugged in at 1/4 battery life remaining, it was still not fully charged after almost 6 hours.
It would likely benefit Wismec if they state a one liner reason for recommending external charging vs using the USB. On the other hand, it could also question the design as to why only allow 1A total vs something higher ?

It would be interesting to hear what charge times the Rolo DNA-200 and RX-200 owners experience with their units - especially if they mention the battery capacity i.e. 2100/2500/3000mAh.

I've had my DNA200 charge for 24+ hours and still not get the batteries fully charged. I've since run the battery analyser to get a more accurate discharge graph on my set of 2500mAh Samsung 25rs. The last charge was Monday and they've lasted me the whole week, I'm going to charge again today and will keep an eye on charge time and update in my Reuleaux review thread.

 

[Lingogrey]

@Lingogrey , thanks for that info. So it seems that they are limited to draw max 1A while charging via the USB port, which is likely why they suggest external charging. It's based more on the time it would take to fully charge 3 x 18650s at 333 mA each, vs maybe 500 mA or higher supported per bay on external chargers. idol_slayer on the reddit thread mentioned that when plugged in at 1/4 battery life remaining, it was still not fully charged after almost 6 hours.
It would likely benefit Wismec if they state a one liner reason for recommending external charging vs using the USB. On the other hand, it could also question the design as to why only allow 1A total vs something higher ?

It would be interesting to hear what charge times the Rolo DNA-200 and RX-200 owners experience with their units - especially if they mention the battery capacity i.e. 2100/2500/3000mAh.

It does seem to take forever to recharge with the RX200. When recharged from approximately half battery life remaining I would say it took about eight hours to full (Samsung 25R 2500 mAh). However, as I can use my eVic VTC in that time (I don't do 'passthrough vaping') and the battery life is excellent once fully charged, I personally don't mind that it seems to takes ages to recharge. Also, as @Silver has said, such a slow charge would be good for long term battery life.

Another Fasttech thread related to this topic (not charge time per se, but balance charging): https://m.fasttech.com/forums/-/t/1926336/balance-charging-on-rx200-and-dna-version

 

[Kuhlkatz]

Thanks @BumbleBee , I saw WHeunis's post about the 'awkward' initial battery in his DNA-200 on the Rolo review thread. An interesting bit of info that I saw last night when looking for Samsung 25R specs @ http://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-w...-fake-18650-battery-featuring-the-samsung-25r. They seem to have some nice tidbits in their blogs.
@Lingogrey , in the link above where they list the specs, and it seems that 1.25A is the 'normal charge' rate and 4A is the 'fast charge' rate, which is surprisingly higher than what we are used to with typical 500 mAh per bay devices. I popped a 3.56v smurf into my i2 and checked the charge current, which seems to vary during charging between 250mA and 520mA with varying degrees (270,520,350,520 etc every second or so).
Not at all what I expected as I understood most chargers employ CC/CV - constant current till almost full then constant voltage till full as per figure 5 in this article. The dedicated charge 'chips' - or Integrated Circuits as @johan somehow insists on calling them - all seem to follow that trend and curve. ( that was on purpose johan, you can give me a PK next time you're in Jhb / Pta area )

If that's the times for charges, it's a not too serious bummer, but the overall battery life should be good for average vapers. You will likely learn to charge at a time where it's convenient at the low end of the battery life scale, but still ensure max uptime. Or just get 2 of them if using onboard charging
For the guys that prefer not to leave batteries charging overnight it seems that 2 or more married sets & an external charger is likely the way they will follow for max uptime with a Rolo as a main mod. I don't stick around to watch paint dry & I certainly do not like to watch batteries charge either. Patience is a virtue, but it's not one of mine. I just pop them in and leave them to fend for themselves, placing my trust in technology not to burn down the house.

 

[BumbleBee]

It seems that charging batteries in an external charger is the way to go, see my findings here... http://www.ecigssa.co.za/wismec-reuleaux-dna-200-review.t17114/page-2#post-299322

 

[Lingogrey]

It seems that charging batteries in an external charger is the way to go, see my findings here... http://www.ecigssa.co.za/wismec-reuleaux-dna-200-review.t17114/page-2#post-299322

I find that my RX200 charges with relative ease and consistency (albeit slowly) up to around 4.11 - 4.14 v

 

[Nimatek]

Yeah the rx200 charges fine but it needs about 9 hours from 1/4 life.

On my i4 it charges well at around 3 or 4 hours. But I got a second set of Samsung 25r batteries so one set in and one set on the charger.

Need to play with usage time still as I have been jumping around from 40 to 100w on my tanks and dripper just to play.

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