How hot does e liquid actually get

[Intuthu Kagesi]

This goes deeper than Chinese marketing, it goes literally against the entire vape industry and the concept of vaping (freebase vaping). The practical does not match the science.

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I acknowledge that it may well go against what vapers claim, however I'll take proven science over "broscience" any day.

I think part of the problem may also be that you're confusing electrical power with heat generation, and then buying into what mod manufacturers state as "fact" ... If we start by asking exactly how the mod manufacturers measure, (and monitor), the temperature of the coil/mesh, with any modicum of accuracy, then it'll make more sense, (I posted some data on this measurement challenge a few weeks back).

The easiest method to prove that science is in fact correct here tho', is to expose a deck with a TC coil or mesh in it ... wick it, juice it, and fire it up ... then check out the temperature(s) with an accurate thermometer or thermal imaging camera

 

[DougP]

I acknowledge that it may well go against what vapers claim, however I'll take proven science over "broscience" any day.

I think part of the problem may also be that you're confusing electrical power with heat generation, and then buying into what mod manufacturers state as "fact" ... If we start by asking exactly how the mod manufacturers measure, (and monitor), the temperature of the coil/mesh, with any modicum of accuracy, then it'll make more sense, (I posted some data on this measurement challenge a few weeks back).

The easiest method to prove that science is in fact correct here tho', is to expose a deck with a TC coil or mesh in it ... wick it, juice it, and fire it up ... then check out the temperature(s) with an accurate thermometer or thermal imaging camera

Fully agree on test method...

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[DavyH]

@Timwis - if vape manufacturers insist on using something as irrelevant as the Fahrenheit scale to cater for the cousins, should they not also cater for the British by including a gas mark scale?

Gas mark 7 is a nice, comfortable 218deg C…

 

[Timwis]

@Timwis - if vape manufacturers insist on using something as irrelevant as the Fahrenheit scale to cater for the cousins, should they not also cater for the British by including a gas mark scale?

Gas mark 7 is a nice, comfortable 218deg C…

If it wasn't on vaping devices I would just use Celsius! If it's on there I will use it, thanks! Really don't get the point of your post!

 

[Resistance]

I guess I could ... but I already know that the scientific boiling temps are what I'll end up measuring ... Lets see now ... who should I believe ... Chinese marketing vs. the rest of the worlds Scientific community

You can test the principle in a fun way by building a paper pot/jug and boiling water in it over flames

The first time I boiled water in a plastic bag I became somewhat of a celebrity. Those were the days...

 

[Resistance]

To everyone in this discussion. Smaller thinner wire less power can equate to bigger thicker wire with more power.

Some clever guy said that once upon a time.
So all in all we could all be wrong and right at the same time.
Let's test this theory and then we praat!

 

[DavyH]

If it wasn't on vaping devices I would just use Celsius! If it's on there I will use it, thanks! Really don't get the point of your post!

Just ragging on the Yanks, mate…

And then it got me thinking about other archaic methods of measurement

 

[DougP]

Found this scientific study that tests the temps.
This is very detailed and sheds light on this.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5908153/#!po=32.2222

@Intuthu Kagesi this article is right up your alley, all that scientific mumble jumble just confuses the hell out of me. It does however show vapor being generated under the scientific boiling points

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[Timwis]

Just ragging on the Yanks, mate…

And then it got me thinking about other archaic methods of measurement

Funny thing is I have never owned a oven that uses Fahrenheit, they all use Celsius and even our whether forecasts use Celsius despite the myth when it is used it's used very much as the secondary scale it's just I tend to use it with TC simply because when TC first came out and I watched a few review/tutorials they used the Fahrenheit not Celsius and most were by Americans!

 

[Resistance]

He used a thermocouple. So his measurements should be on point. The VG/PG mix ended up with higher temps.
And even at low wattage did he get extreme temps.

 

[DougP]

View attachment 240220
He used a thermocouple. So his measurements should be on point. The VG/PG mix ended up with higher temps.
And even at low wattage did he get extreme temps.View attachment 240221

The whole discussion is about being able to produce vape below the stated scientific boiling point .
That's said see below

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[Resistance]

The whole discussion is about being able to produce vape below the stated scientific boiling point .
That's said see below

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Isn't that what we're descussing?

 

[Resistance]

Isn't that what we're descussing?

Or weren't we debating that MTL setups could reach higher temps?

 

[DougP]

Isn't that what we're descussing?

Yip
I have been saying over and over I am not trying to provoke an argument. All I am saying is that my practical experience of vaping at 210c totally refrutes and disputes the scientific data of what the flash points are for these liquids. This study confirms that combustion was being achieved below scientific publish boiling points of the liquids

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[DougP]

Or weren't we debating that MTL setups could reach higher temps?

In a nutshell
The science says

Max PG 188.2°C
50:50 239.1°C
Nicotine 247°C
60:40 249.28°C
70:30 259.46°C
80:20 269.64°C
Max VG 290°C

I'm saying nope I am vaping at temperatures below that (210°c)
And the science is saying nope you can't be because it's below the boiling points of the PG & VG
And this study seems to substantiate my claim by saying yes you can be
Something like that

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[Resistance]

Yip
I have been saying over and over I am not trying to provoke an argument. All I am saying is that my practical experience of vaping at 210c totally refrutes and disputes the scientific data of what the flash points are for these liquids. This study confirms that combustion was being achieved below scientific publish boiling points of the liquids

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Dude it's Monday. I was never going to argue today.
Non of this bothers me I was just interested in discussing something nobody ever discusses.

 

[Intuthu Kagesi]

The whole discussion is about being able to produce vape below the stated scientific boiling point .
That's said see below

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This is indeed possible IF you lower the air pressure, (which we do when we suck, by creating a lower partial pressure /vacuum), and reading that paper, it's not clear whether they measured statically or with a vacuum equivalent to someone sucking?

As a sidebar, but related ... I built a rig to suck a fixed volume at a fixed vacuum from a vape atty, with a spectrum analyser attached ... this in an attempt to resolve the subjectivity argument on coils, and my scatter graph looked something like the ones in the paper you attached, to which I labeled it as inconclusive with the large variances ... unlike what they have done

 

[Resistance]

@Stranger eLiquid get hot bru!hothothot

 

[DougP]

Dude it's Monday. I was never going to argue today.
Non of this bothers me I was just interested in discussing something nobody ever discusses.

yeah true, I just found this topic very interesting. But bliksem all this scientific mumble jumble is way over my head...

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[Timwis]

In a nutshell
The science says

Max PG 188.2°C
50:50 239.1°C
Nicotine 247°C
60:40 249.28°C
70:30 259.46°C
80:20 269.64°C
Max VG 290°C

I'm saying nope I am vaping at temperatures below that (210°c)
And the science is saying nope you can't be because it's below the boiling points of the PG & VG
And this study seems to substantiate my claim by saying yes you can be
Something like that

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At this moment fair enough I am testing the Obelisk 60w AIO but going by the warmth comparable to when i do use TC I would estimate I am no higher than 190 degrees, my liquid is 70VG/30PG 3mg nic and I have clouds galore and my nicotine satisfaction!

 

[DougP]

This is indeed possible IF you lower the air pressure, (which we do when we suck, by creating a lower partial pressure /vacuum), and reading that paper, it's not clear whether they measured statically or with a vacuum equivalent to someone sucking?

As a sidebar, but related ... I built a rig to suck a fixed volume at a fixed vacuum from a vape atty, with a spectrum analyser attached ... this in an attempt to resolve the subjectivity argument on coils, and my scatter graph looked something like the ones in the paper you attached, to which I labeled it as inconclusive with the large variances ... unlike what they have done

Way above my brain size. Just have one question..
This thingie you built does it at least make you a cuppa coffee...it so it's a great device

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[Intuthu Kagesi]

Yip
I have been saying over and over I am not trying to provoke an argument. All I am saying is that my practical experience of vaping at 210c totally refrutes and disputes the scientific data of what the flash points are for these liquids. This study confirms that combustion was being achieved below scientific publish boiling points of the liquids

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Doug ... I know you man ... and I welcome healthy debate
I think the only way around yet another subjectivity vs. science debate is ... test it! ... and I think I'll involve you in the testing too!

 

[Timwis]

At this moment fair enough I am testing the Obelisk 60w AIO but going by the warmth comparable to when i do use TC I would estimate I am no higher than 190 degrees, my liquid is 70VG/30PG 3mg nic and I have clouds galore and my nicotine satisfaction!

Just turned down to 15w (recommended wattage 40 to 50w for the installed coil), crap cool vape but it still produces vapor, in fact quite a bit!

 

[DougP]

Doug ... I know you man ... and I welcome healthy debate
I think the only way around yet another subjectivity vs. science debate is ... test it! ... and I think I'll involve you in the testing too!

Naaa I would probably blow up your lab, and besides I have my test this attached study.


So can we agree now looking at your post that broscience wins this one...

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[Timwis]

Way above my brain size. Just have one question..
This thingie you built does it at least make you a cuppa coffee...it so it's a great device

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Just agreeing, those scientific temperatures don't equate to practice!