Moral Dilemma

[Kuhlkatz]

I fully agree with the general sentiment here, and I honestly would not know how I'd react. This 'moral dilemma' stuff was not discussed in depth in Parenting 101 or Parenting for Dummies. If I was in your shoes, I'd probably crap myself, and crap my kid out for being so stupid. All this while fully knowing it's just a repeat of my rebellious/adventurous younger self. My mom and dad both smoked, so why couldn't I ?
Teenagers are going to experiment with cigs, booze and sex at some stage and there is absolutely nothing we can do to stop them. We can just hope that the values we teach them will guide them in their lives, and that they take some precautions to mitigate the risks if they do experiment.
For the rest, you can only be supportive and try and wean them off of their 'addictions', and this is likely one you can help to squash quite easily. Most of us vape as harm-reduction vs smoking, so why on earth would you allow your son to smoke when you know what the end result could be or would likely be ?

I'd say have a heart-to-heart and get a feel for the amount of cigs a day. Based on that, decide if you think that 0 nic or 3 / 6 / 12 may be required.
Make your dilemma clear to him, so that he understands where you stand, and why you want to help him get off the stinkies. Even if he is 'allowed' to vape, it's not acceptable for him to flash his gear around, just like he would not flash the stinkies around in every conversation.

 

[Waine]

I am a parent of 2, and this is my take. Tell him it’s OK to smoke in front of you but only when he is working and he can afford to buy his own cigarettes. Until then tell him that you don't want to see him smoking in front of you. It is your house and you can call the shots. It’s tough love but the way to go -- I think. If you buy him a vaping kit with 0mg nicotine, he will not be satisfied. If you buy him a vaping kit with nicotine, you will be fuelling his habit. (Which he cannot afford) It is a catch 22. If you give in now, the next thing it will be alcohol or even MJ.

Its a tough one and you have my empathy.

 

[Effjh]

In the end of the day it's all about being "cool" as a teenager. I smoked because it was rock 'n roll AF and you think you are bulletproof at that age. If vaping was a thing back then, I would have found the vape tricks side of it quite appealing. Maybe show him some youtube vids, for tricks you are better off on 0mg nic high VG juice anyway. He will have his fun and grow out of it eventually. Might get expensive though, but the reality is it will save his life down the line.

 

[kimbo]

Me and my girlfriend lived together in DBN in her sister use to come visit from hostel, she always said she wanted to have a big party for her 18th and get drunk "it must be so cool"

So when her 18th birthday party came we got her shit drunk, falling, being sick the whole she-bang. We stayed sober to keep an eye on her. So the next morning sitting there with one hell of a barbie we told her THAT is what over doing it is all about, have a drink or two but remember what it feels like to be cool

Maybe you should get so 18mg pop that in a dripper and let the boy blow clouds

 

[wiesbang]

Just my 2cents, If I knew 16 years ago what I know now, things would be much different. I started smoking in my early teens, and kind of only did it to fit in. Find out what his motivation is for starting smoking in a calm casual conversation and keep it that way, then decide what to do next.
My daughter is 8 and my boy 6, both of them are so intrigued by vaping gear and coil building, juice mixing and daddy blowing clouds into the rays of sunshine shining through the patio window, that they often help me and the ideas from their HUGE imaginations are sometimes funny. At that age they have a firm grasp of ohms law, (Will be helpfull in Highschool Physics) and % in a volume of liquid ( yip, Chemistry) as well as where rain comes from, ( okay, I might have told them that I vape to make clouds cause its dry here in the dessert).
BUT, explain to kids that it is not acceptable in public and that it would be cool with you if the two of you make it a hobby instead of doing it behind your back and that smokes taste k@k after a couple drags off a vape anyway.
What ever you decide try to make it appealing to quit smokes rather than scolding, fighting and losing your monkeys over it.
If he can go without smokes for a week on end, he is not addicted yet, get him 1.5 - 3mg juice, if HE loses his monkeys after a couple hours/days of not smoking, rather go a bit higher in Nic. Let him choose a device and juice, make it fun, maybe he quits after a month in which case there is always a classifieds section here to recover costs, maybe he decides to stay with it, 2 years untill he is 18 may sound like a long time, it isn't.
Both my kids regularly scold smokers and tell them to vape, you know the saying about "from the mouths of babes"..... It may also be a great bonding experience for the two of you.

On the other hand, if he is smoking in rebellion or to deliberately p*** you off, gets a tattoo of a cig, and blows smoke in your face, then lock him in his room for a week without smokes, food or water, the bugger will soon learn.

(Kidding on the last part,......or am I???)

I went to a fellow forum members place the other day and his son gave him a plastic bag and told him to blow into the bag and close it. He was so excited to have a bag filled with vapor. Was so cute!

 

[Robert Howes]

Thanks for all the great heart felt advice and taking the time to share your experiences and points of view, it certainly made me think back to my youth when I was so rebellious. Just some further background info that maybe I should of included in the first post.

This dabbling in smoking has been on going for 2 years and has gone from experimentation to an addiction. He is a keen sports person and we train at the boxing gym 3 times a week, often double sessions. He is also a keen rugby player and after a years worth of hard fitness training he has just managed to become the youngest member of the high schools first team. Being an all knowing nearly 16 year old he doesn't feel the negatives of smoking yet so doesn't see the immediate problem although he is sensible enough to know that it will eventually catch up with him. He has gone cold turkey a couple of times but I catch him out a few weeks later. The addiction is hard to beat and having a group of friends of which many smoke makes it harder because of the peer lets be cool pressure.

Anyway that is more of a back ground, the moral dilemma I was battling with was do I carry on banging my head against a brick wall or do I try something less orthodox like letting him vape as an alternative, knowing full well it carries a minimum age limit of 18 (just like smoking). More to the point smoking has a minimum age limit and he does not have my consent or blessing to continue with it. How then can I give my consent and blessing for vaping that carries the same age restriction.

Anyway I had a good chat to him last night and he is keen to try vaping (not that he hasn't had a few stolen vapes in the past) as an alternative and as an attempt to stop the stinking analogues. To hell with the law, in my eyes his long term health is more important and if vaping will get him of the stinking fags then vaping it will be. He isn't interested in blowing big clouds or building coils he wants a healthier alternative.

First thoughts are:
Evic VTC mini with a Cubis tank purely because it is about the easiest set up to use and maintain and as i use a Cubis coils are always readily on hand.

The more difficult decision is juice. Initially I was thinking 12mg for a month or 2 to help him kick the habit then slowly bring him down to 0. Flavors I was thinking sweet dessert type juice. If he gets used to something sweet, then if he does sneak in a stinky it will taste like kak and he will be less inclined the next time.

Thank you all once again for your contribution so far.

 

[rogue zombie]

Thankfully smoking is way less "cool" than in our days.

I'm sure some girl somewhere down the line will tell him his breathe or he stinks. So if the vaping thing doesn't take off right away, I'm sure he may be lead there on his own.



I do agree with maybe starting on 12mg. I know I really needed that throat-hit for awhile. If thats missing in the beginning, it may put him off.

When I started vaping, variation was key with ejuices. And I also, like many others, needed a good RY4.

 

[Lord Vetinari]

As most vapers are ex-smokers we will all remember when we started smoking, personally I started at 13 and was a full time smoker by 14. I have a 16 year old son who was so anti smoking when I smoked but now he is taking up the habit himself. After all these years and so much education it is still cool to go against authority and light up a stinking cigarette

We have tried punishment, we have tried positive reinforcement we have tried all sorts to deter the habit but boys will be boys and at this age they know better than anyone.

Now the moral Dilemma. He is under 18 so it is illegal but do I invest in a vape kit and 0mg Nic juice for him. Logic would tell me that that is the better than him sneaking around smoking analogues. BUT! is it good parenting??? So many pros and so many cons.

What would you do in this situation?

He is going to do whatever he wants. Get him a GOOD hobby kit. Make him build coils. You will save him so many medical expenses, save on life insurance etc. Plus he will be the coolest cat in his circle.

Yes. Use vaping to swing this to the positive. Dont exclude him though share a tank of something in 3mg every now and then. Hes got to know that is better than getting nic from a smoke.

 

[Lord Vetinari]

Thanks for all the great heart felt advice and taking the time to share your experiences and points of view, it certainly made me think back to my youth when I was so rebellious. Just some further background info that maybe I should of included in the first post.

This dabbling in smoking has been on going for 2 years and has gone from experimentation to an addiction. He is a keen sports person and we train at the boxing gym 3 times a week, often double sessions. He is also a keen rugby player and after a years worth of hard fitness training he has just managed to become the youngest member of the high schools first team. Being an all knowing nearly 16 year old he doesn't feel the negatives of smoking yet so doesn't see the immediate problem although he is sensible enough to know that it will eventually catch up with him. He has gone cold turkey a couple of times but I catch him out a few weeks later. The addiction is hard to beat and having a group of friends of which many smoke makes it harder because of the peer lets be cool pressure.

Anyway that is more of a back ground, the moral dilemma I was battling with was do I carry on banging my head against a brick wall or do I try something less orthodox like letting him vape as an alternative, knowing full well it carries a minimum age limit of 18 (just like smoking). More to the point smoking has a minimum age limit and he does not have my consent or blessing to continue with it. How then can I give my consent and blessing for vaping that carries the same age restriction.

Anyway I had a good chat to him last night and he is keen to try vaping (not that he hasn't had a few stolen vapes in the past) as an alternative and as an attempt to stop the stinking analogues. To hell with the law, in my eyes his long term health is more important and if vaping will get him of the stinking fags then vaping it will be. He isn't interested in blowing big clouds or building coils he wants a healthier alternative.

First thoughts are:
Evic VTC mini with a Cubis tank purely because it is about the easiest set up to use and maintain and as i use a Cubis coils are always readily on hand.

The more difficult decision is juice. Initially I was thinking 12mg for a month or 2 to help him kick the habit then slowly bring him down to 0. Flavors I was thinking sweet dessert type juice. If he gets used to something sweet, then if he does sneak in a stinky it will taste like kak and he will be less inclined the next time.

Thank you all once again for your contribution so far.

Standing Ovation! Wish my dad had this option. But stick to max 6mg. It is pretty strong to me when sub ohming. Totally adequate I was a 30 a day smoker.

 

[Kuhlkatz]

I think I'd do exactly the same in your position. I know of parents that have bought their kids Twisp kits, but don't think the success rate was good. Decent kit and a high enough nic content is definitely the way to go, so I'd second that VTC Mini and Cubis. Reduce the nic once the stinky dependency is broken, just like most of us do.

Get him fruity flavours - I've seen in all the anti-vaping lobbying articles that flavours like this is aimed specifically at kids.

 

[Robert Howes]

2 years ago when I started this journey I had to use 24mg to get my nic fix. 2 years in I am down to 6mg and my next ADV order will be 3mg.

 

[Andre]

Thanks for all the great heart felt advice and taking the time to share your experiences and points of view, it certainly made me think back to my youth when I was so rebellious. Just some further background info that maybe I should of included in the first post.

This dabbling in smoking has been on going for 2 years and has gone from experimentation to an addiction. He is a keen sports person and we train at the boxing gym 3 times a week, often double sessions. He is also a keen rugby player and after a years worth of hard fitness training he has just managed to become the youngest member of the high schools first team. Being an all knowing nearly 16 year old he doesn't feel the negatives of smoking yet so doesn't see the immediate problem although he is sensible enough to know that it will eventually catch up with him. He has gone cold turkey a couple of times but I catch him out a few weeks later. The addiction is hard to beat and having a group of friends of which many smoke makes it harder because of the peer lets be cool pressure.

Anyway that is more of a back ground, the moral dilemma I was battling with was do I carry on banging my head against a brick wall or do I try something less orthodox like letting him vape as an alternative, knowing full well it carries a minimum age limit of 18 (just like smoking). More to the point smoking has a minimum age limit and he does not have my consent or blessing to continue with it. How then can I give my consent and blessing for vaping that carries the same age restriction.

Anyway I had a good chat to him last night and he is keen to try vaping (not that he hasn't had a few stolen vapes in the past) as an alternative and as an attempt to stop the stinking analogues. To hell with the law, in my eyes his long term health is more important and if vaping will get him of the stinking fags then vaping it will be. He isn't interested in blowing big clouds or building coils he wants a healthier alternative.

First thoughts are:
Evic VTC mini with a Cubis tank purely because it is about the easiest set up to use and maintain and as i use a Cubis coils are always readily on hand.

The more difficult decision is juice. Initially I was thinking 12mg for a month or 2 to help him kick the habit then slowly bring him down to 0. Flavors I was thinking sweet dessert type juice. If he gets used to something sweet, then if he does sneak in a stinky it will taste like kak and he will be less inclined the next time.

Thank you all once again for your contribution so far.

Great stuff. I agree with @Lord Vetinari that a rebuildable would be great for him - not only save you Cubis coil heads, but also keep him busy. And he shall want to blow clouds I am sure.

BTW, there is no law that I am aware of that makes it illegal to vape if you are younger than 18 years. Boils down to self regulation at this stage.

 

[Waine]

Great stuff. I agree with @Lord Vetinari that a rebuildable would be great for him - not only save you Cubis coil heads, but also keep him busy. And he shall want to blow clouds I am sure.

BTW, there is no law that I am aware of that makes it illegal to vape if you are younger than 18 years. Boils down to self regulation at this stage.

It is not "illegal" to smoke or vape under 18, par sè. It is illegal for vendors to sell tobacco or vape juice to under 18s.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk

 

[argief]

Hi,

I think it would also help hearing the opinion of a "child"

I started smoking at 14, and I am now a month away from 22. Smoking for 7 years certainly doesn't bring all the negative side affects of a 10/20/30/x year smoker. But I have had enough of the constant wheezing, coughing, perpetual heartburn, excessive snoring and whatever else goes paired with smoking.

Growing up, my grandfather was a smoker. 40 a day Lexington plains. He was a truck driver, and I think part of the old generation where smoking was still endorsed to a level. This is probably the main reason my dad didn't become a full time smoker. My dad used to smoke casually when he was younger, but never around me. Me not know the horror of growing up in an environment where someone like a parent was smoking next to me constantly, I think I got the idea that: "yes its bad, but it cant be that bad...".

My dad only caught me once. He saw a pack of smokes in my cubby hole when he moved my car from the driveway to the lawn. He absolutely ******* lost it! He never caught me with a cig in my hand, and never said anything about the smell (I have no doubt that he smelled the smoke, I just think he didn't want to say anything). But I think there was a certain amount of excitement connected to the taboo. If my dad knew and accepted it, I don't think I would have even picked up the habit. But it was drilled into me from a young age that he does not take lightly on this matter specifically. I don't have the best relationship with my dad either, kind of distant. I would love to be close with my dad. But he is convinced that its his way, or his way. There will never be a highway. Me having the amount of respect I have for my dad, I won't want to go against his will. But unfortunately, the smoking was one thing that I could sneakily do. It felt empowering, and also focused me. I felt like a smoke helps me collect my thoughts. My most enjoyable cigarette were the ones that I had all by my lonesome. I also have ADD, I think that is one of the reasons why I enjoyed smoking on my own. Just taking a break, letting your mind reboot.

My advise, from a son that hopes his father never sees this. Please give your son/daughter the love they need. This isn't necessarily a cry for help, but too many rules and restrictions could drive them to do something that makes them feel in control. Even if it is a self-destructive doing. You need to have a chat with him, make sure throughout that he knows you love him, and that you would rather have him not smoke at all.

HAVING SAID THAT: I think the lesser of 2 evils would have been my approach - get him the kit and some juice. Although I am not a parent (not that I know of ), and you shouldn't make a decision based on what you read in my post .

I got a lump in my throught reading this. My story is similar. Started at 14, but smoked for 14 years, I will be 33 next week.

I like this response best of all. I have recently become a parent (18months) so I won't pretend to know a lot. But I think you need to sit back and evaluate the entire situation. Parenting imo is about periodic intervention to attain a strategic goal of what you envision for your child. This is one of those critical intervention points which needs to be considered against the backdrop of where you are now and how you can use this to leverage your influence.

My father passed 6 years ago this April. I had a similar "distant" relationship with my father and I am certain that my choice to smoke against his very vocal disapproval, the sneaking around behind his back, the endless game where he tried to catch me and I tried to out smart him in the end just drove us further apart.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

 

[Andre]

It is not "illegal" to smoke or vape under 18, par sè. It is illegal for vendors to sell tobacco or vape juice to under 18s.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk

Nope, no laws for vaping yet as far as I know.

 

[mAlice]

I got a lump in my throught reading this. My story is similar. Started at 14, but smoked for 14 years, I will be 33 next week.

I like this response best of all. I have recently become a parent (18months) so I won't pretend to know a lot. But I think you need to sit back and evaluate the entire situation. Parenting imo is about periodic intervention to attain a strategic goal of what you envision for your child. This is one of those critical intervention points which needs to be considered against the backdrop of where you are now and how you can use this to leverage your influence.

My father passed 6 years ago this April. I had a similar "distant" relationship with my father and I am certain that my choice to smoke against his very vocal disapproval, the sneaking around behind his back, the endless game where he tried to catch me and I tried to out smart him in the end just drove us further apart.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

I am very sorry for your loss. I dread the day I have to carry the casket of my father. It's tough... He has done everything in his power to further my education and really give me a head start in life. From what I have seen it is hard for him to let go and let me live my own life. I really want to fix things with him, but if he carries on like this... I don't know. @Robert Howes Your son is extremely lucky to have a dad he can talk to. I can't even speak to mine because every discussion turns into a lecture on how he has "made these mistakes before", and I should listen to him because apparently I don't know what I want.

Good luck with your new family member @argief !

 

[WHeunis]

I am not a parent.
I will NEVER be a parent.

But I do remember having a parent...

What follows are my opinions. At own risk and all that...

Spoiler

We all lie to ourselves a hell of a lot when it comes to these things. Kids and their indulgence in what "we" perceive as adult pleasures...
Alcohol, sex, drugs, smoking, etc.

If you seriously think you started smoking to "be cool" or "stick it to authority", you are either flat-out delusional, or you are remembering it wrong.
There was only ever one of two reasons why kids do these things.

1) The curiosity origin.
You have a smoking parent/guardian, and you wonder what the fuss is. You steal/borrow/obtain some of your own and try it.
You get hooked, and done.

2) Peer pressure (fitting in)
Your (possibly best-) friend is from category one, and you don't want to be different. The development of conformity to our inner circle is vital to the formation and maintenance of societal cohesion. We are instinctively wired to conform. Don't stand out. Go with the herd.
Do what your friend does, so he stays your friend.
Then you're hooked anyway, so now you're a smoker and that's that.


99% of us, are from category 2. Yeah it sucks. We are at the bottom of the barrel as a weak-willed person, with a complete lack of strength in character.
Get over it. We were a kids. At least rest with the fact that you did eventually break into your own, and started making your own decisions (eventually).

-----------

Now, IF your kid is indeed from category 1: you could offer him a vape kit. Maybe he thinks its cool and awesome and uses it. Those kids are usually also the alphas of their group, and if they start doing a thing, you can be sure that the rest of the group is VERY likely to follow suit.
Alternatively, it can cause a beta in the group to get them shamed/shunned/etc and ejected.
We are animals, and nowhere will you see this as clearly as when you examine teenage relationships.
Anyway, buy him the kit. Make it an affordable one... He may or may not use it, and may use it a little, and then dump it as pressure from the betas start to mount.

-----------

If your kid is from the majority category 2: nothing you can do. If his group doesn't do it, he won't do it. If his group does it, then he will do it.
Sadly, the only way forward here that i can even begin to imagine, is to SOMEHOW reach the entire group all at once. Maybe allow a party at your house? Maybe inject yourself into some conversations without coming off as "just another preachy old man"?

Bottom-line, its going to be near impossible to convince a kid of anything at this stage in their lives.
I'm not saying you should do nothing. THAT is the definition of bad parenting.
I am however saying that you REALLY need to evaluate your child's social circle and establish his place in it before you act.
The last thing you want is to turn your child into a social outcast that hates you for it...

But at least, yes I do think vape is the better option if you can pull it off.
Would you rather your daughter/son get pregnant/diseased, or convince her/him to carry some condoms around?
Same things apply to smoking.
We have alternatives now. It would be silly (imo) to not try...

 

[Kamiel]

As most vapers are ex-smokers we will all remember when we started smoking, personally I started at 13 and was a full time smoker by 14. I have a 16 year old son who was so anti smoking when I smoked but now he is taking up the habit himself. After all these years and so much education it is still cool to go against authority and light up a stinking cigarette

We have tried punishment, we have tried positive reinforcement we have tried all sorts to deter the habit but boys will be boys and at this age they know better than anyone.

Now the moral Dilemma. He is under 18 so it is illegal but do I invest in a vape kit and 0mg Nic juice for him. Logic would tell me that that is the better than him sneaking around smoking analogues. BUT! is it good parenting??? So many pros and so many cons.

What would you do in this situation?

If he's smoking anyway, I think buying him an ijust2 is good parenting. It's giving your kid a way to act upon the same rebelious/cool impulse but you're lessening the risk to his health at the same time. Of course peer pressure is a factor and the hip kids think smoking is cool and vaping isn't. But at the end of the day, you can't say you didn't try to find a middle ground. I applaud that kind of parenting.

It's awesome that kids these days will grow up in a world where there is a viable alternative to tobacco. I think in a few years, provided the anti-vaping media agenda is exposed for the sham that it is, stinkies will have all but disappeared from the shelves.

 

[Rob Fisher]

Evic Mini, target tank and 6mg. Chat to you about it just now!

 

[NewOobY]

Wow that is a tricky one. I'm sorry to hear you got put in this spot. I did the same thing as a kid, and to this day I have no idea why my parents didn't just make my life miserable. They maintain that I was a little shit (excuse the language), and I would have gone off the rails had they pushed any harder.

At that age it was about being cool, so not sure if vaping is as cool as smoking to kids this age, and therefore would a 0mg vape otion eliminate this need?

In my opinion (no judgement or anything like that) I would stick to the traditional method of bringing all hell down on him if you catch him smoking. Should you give him a kit you're encouraging the behaviour (even though I understand you are in no way wanting to). Furthermore it would add fuel to the fires of anti-vaping activists, for them it would be a case-in-point.

I'm going to go with @Stosta here and @Ezekiel to be honest <-- We stand together brothers, we don't conform .
In my opinion smoking is bad and so is vaping - no matter how much better vaping is, the fact is that it is still bad. If he is smoking now it is not a passing habit that will pass, it is now an addiction more than just doing it for the sake of being cool. I wouldn't condone either - I would have a firm chat with him, get him a kit and say I don't want to see you doing it - we have to admit it is definitely the lessor of the two evils.

Now, ways that could get him to stop entirely are the following:
1) If he takes up a sport seriously, like rugby, cricket, a contact sport like Karate/Muay Thai/MMA - basically a sport that requires you being extremely physically active - reason is obvious
2) Then another big one, if he meets a girl that doesn't smoke - reason also obvious
3) If you catch him smoking/vaping punish him like no allowance for the week or something like that

This is just my 2c, I too do not have kids - but I have a younger brother (brother-in-law) and we (wife and i) have have to play mom+dad for the past 4 years. To much of a long story to explain this, but yes we have been supporting him etc. He is at the age were smoking is not a problem, but rather more nasty things - he is 21 now and in varsity.