Premium Juice Prices In Perspective

[steve]

@Paul you bought DIY ingrediants from skyblue and made your own juice at a reduced rate. Pre mixed juice is a differant world. Skyblue also sell "ready to vape" juice at 55 rand per 10ml which is a decent price for pre mixed. I think some of the frustration may come from the fact that this is not new information for many people on the forum. Most people after vaping for a while are aware of how much cheaper it is to DIY. Some choose to do so, some don't. But we must again be clear that mixing up your own and buying already made are two totally differant ball games
in my experiance you generally get what you pay for in terms of "ready to vape" juice .

 

[RevnLucky7]

@Paul you bought DIY ingrediants from skyblue and made your own juice at a reduced rate. Pre mixed juice is a differant world. Skyblue also sell "ready to vape" juice at 55 rand per 10ml which is a decent price for pre mixed. I think some of the frustration may come from the fact that this is not new information for many people on the forum. Most people after vaping for a while are aware of how much cheaper it is to DIY. Some choose to do so, some don't. But we must again be clear that mixing up your own and buying already made are two totally differant ball games
in my experiance you generally get what you pay for in terms of "ready to vape" juice .

I'm realizing there's obviously a huge gap in experience here...
I've written my piece. I'll leave it at that.

 

[ShaneW]

I'm vaping the sky blue diy juice as I'm typing this. Really cost effective but it can't compare to the premium juice we are paying a premium price for. Vendors spend months and years perfecting their lines and hence charge a premium for their time.
And if you ask sky blue I'm sure they'll tell you they were/are extremely busy

 

[Paul]

I'm realizing there's obviously a huge gap in experience here...
I've written my piece. I'll leave it at that.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

 

[Rex_Bael]

@Paul I can buy the ingredients to brew my own beer for about R250 and make 23 litres. That's half the price per 6-pack in comparison to Castle. It does not guarantee that it will be any good, that I will want to drink it or that I will be able to sell it.

Comparing the price of base components with the price of a finished product is also not fair, so let's compare apples to apples:

Using ejuice4u and adding a liter of unflavoured 0mg nic PG and 110ml of flavouring(A conservative 5% of total volume) comes to just over R3000. About R1.42 per ml, 18mg nic, flavoured juice.

You can purchase exactly the same locally for R1.05 per ml to about R1.83 per ml depending on who you purchase from and taking into account that this is not bulk pricing. You also do not run the risk of your order being confiscated or alternatively having to find a pharmacist who is licensed and willing to import the nic for you.

In other words, DIY liquids in SA are certainly not overpriced and perfectly viable.

For ready to vape liquids, it is possible to find some at similar prices to DIY. Fasttech has several available at those rates. I would certainly not use them and since you showed some concern over what goes into your liquids and the quality thereof, I suspect you wouldn't either. Looking at liquids with a reasonable reputation from known suppliers, South African retailers are spot-on with their pricing and generally cheaper than importing for yourself. As an example, you can purchase 30ml Liqua from Vapour Mountain locally for R120.00 or import from the US at $12.95 excluding postage etc.

In conclusion, comparing the price of base components to finished products is not a valid argument. Once you compare equivalent products the pricing in SA is far from unreasonable. You are more than welcome to complain about the price of liquids world-wide, but pointing a finger at SA suppliers and claiming they are just out to make a quick buck is unacceptable. These retailers have worked hard to provide our community with good quality products. They have earned the trust and respect of the community over time by consistently providing excellent service and products. In future, please take this into consideration before dismissing and judging them so casually.

 

[TylerD]

 

[Rooigevaar]

It is easy to see where @Paul is coming from, when I first learned what the price for raw ingredients are I must admit I also did a double take. In my mind I was being ripped off. And I started on a Twisp with juice that costs R200 for 20ml (makes premium prices seem cheap). So give him some slack as I am sure alot of us also had some doubts once they learned the raw ingredient's pricing...

Now however after trying some DIY myself and basically fart arsing around with it for a while I discovered that it is NOT that easy to make a juice that tastes good. DIY is also not THAT cheap as you are constantly buying new flavours as the last one you tried just dit not work etc etc. After tasting premium juice I can also say that in my limited ability to craft juice I will never be able to produce some of the fine juices I have tried.

Time is money and I just dont have the time to DIY into the night.
The pricing for local juices seems more than fair to me and I am personally prepared to pay for them over and over again. Some of the Imported juices I am willing to pay more for. MY choice of what I want.
There is no Monopoly in SA with juice so no one is forcing us to buy only their juice...

If a vendor is over charging for crappy juice I can guarentee that they will not last long, and if a vendor makes good juice even at an inflated price they will probably do well. It's simple business, supply and demand. If people dont like it they wont buy it.

SO... we all know juice is expensive compared to the price of raw ingredients, and if you are willing to pay for a vendors juice then go for it and if you are not then go do some DIY. It is YOUR choice!

 

[Andre]

Lol, @Rooigevaar, same experience here. Crunched the numbers, bought a lot of flavours and nicotine. Started off with unbound enthusiasm...a few weeks later realised that none of my attempts were near to the good juices I could buy and that I had neither the patience nor the perserverance for DIY juices. Hats off to the people that are very successful at DIY. Not for me, but every time @dragontw posts a recipe I am sorely tempted...have been able to resist so far.

 

[Riaz]

i have been DIYing for a while now, and i dont spend a fortune on concentrates.

i buy what i think will be nice (at the moment only have 5 concentrates) and thats it for me

im happy with my DIY mixes, yes they may not be as good as the 'premium' juices, but they work for me and im happy.

personally, i cannot justify paying R300 odd for 30ml of juice, simply because i cannot afford it- simple as that.

do i ***** and moan about it? no
do i wish the premium juices would be cheaper for people like me? yes
but then again i also wish that the price of ferraris will come down so i can buy that also.

i think the issue here is, if you can afford to pay premium prices for juices, then why the hell not?

if you cant, buy and do what you can afford.

i speak for myself here, but if i were to spend R300 on a bottle of juice, i will NOT give a negative review on it simply coz who wants to be the peophol that spent that money on juice and it wasnt any good.

just my 2c

 

[Al3x]

I'm reading this thread and i have a few thoughts, leaving the e-juice out of the equation every1 goes into bussiness to make money, and looking at it if it's costing aprox R15 to make 10ml, a bottle about R5 label about R3 which is a stretch if you making under 50 that works out to R23, if you add labour, time taken, wastage when trying to get the recipe right 100% profit becomes 20% so from my point of view 50 bucks for a good juice already mixed where i know what it is gonna taste like is not bad at all and worth the 20 bucks for the effort put in. the other ones are expensive cause it's expensive, better bottles, more quality of ingredients etc. etc.

Jets sells a tackie for R50 but their are so many of using R800+ nikes but they both serve the same purpose once again same thing but i rather prefer the quality and know that i am buying something that has been tested by some1 who has taken a lot of time in mixing and perfecting a flavor for me to enjoy.

China mall in durbz has the Liqua for R25 a 10ml but i will definetly not buy from them and would rather pay the extra R25 and buy a locally produced juice.

Also we as consumers need to take into consideration that in order for a manufacturer to sell something cheaper, they need to make up the drop in income somewhere, and this almost always the quality that drops.

I am thankful to all our local juice makers and suppliers for all their effort and making something available to us at a reasonable price, good quality and the fact that if there is a problem with the batch we can most probably exchange for a good one.

No offence intended to anyone, just my 2cents.

 

[Tom]

China mall in durbz has the Liqua for R25 a 10ml

most likely fake.

 

[soonkia]

It's a free market - yes, cost to entry in the juice market is low - so, the market will sort it self out eventually - the more competition will drive down prices. Getting known and popular is a lot more expensive, but still not a deal breaker.

Yoh, if we're feeling ripped off with juices, the Americans must really be pissed.

$55 for 1L of Nic and they have no problems selling 30ml premium juices @ $20 - $30. So sell 2 bottles, and your nic is paid for. We still need to pay shipping and import duties on the product just to start making it - and then you have the added risk of customs being in a fowl mood that day.

 

[Yash]

most likely fake.

Agreed, and I would be wary of purchasing any ejuice from China Mall...

 

[RezaD]

Really busy at work these days so have not been very active but anyway.....

Having read all the posts I don't see what the argument is all about. Yes ejuice worldwide is overpriced but nobody is forced to buy anything. That is the bottom line.

I started tinkering with DIY for the following reasons:
1) I am very finicky when it comes to taste. I liked many juices but would like certain things changed like how much flavour etc.
2) I was very impressed with VM's VM4 but wanted the profile changed to a more tobacco element. I initially mixed VM4 with various Liqua tobacco flavours which did not work.
3) I like messing with food and cake recipes and change recipes to suit my palate.

For me DIY is not really cheap but that is because I am constantly experimenting (I now have more than 30 flavour concentrates) but it has been very rewarding. I very seldom vape the juices I bought and that I am still trying. I end up giving it away. Some I have swopped and some I have even thrown away.

If you like a very small variety of juices then it would be cheap to mix for sure. However getting the flavour spot on is truly an art / or lots of experimentation which is very costly no doubt.

It is when you mix 5 or more flavours that it truly becomes an art. It is no different to a master chef that has created his own recipes. You might use the same ingredients in your creation but it could taste very different.
I could give you an exact list of ingredients in a recipe and yet you would most likely never be able to recreate it.

I have spent months doing this now and it is starting paying off big time for me. Access to proper ingredients (flavourants) is just as critical as the recipe itself. There are so many factors to creating a juice but just like cooking and baking I can give you an exact recipe down to the ml and you may or may not be able to recreate it.

But this post and @dragontw? has got me thinking..............as I have no intention of making a business from liquids should I make my recipes available to everyone on this forum or would it be prejudicing some who have put in a lot of time and effort into their products and deserve to reap the fruits of their labour? Should I put it to a vote?

 

[Andre]

Really busy at work these days so have not been very active but anyway.....

Having read all the posts I don't see what the argument is all about. Yes ejuice worldwide is overpriced but nobody is forced to buy anything. That is the bottom line.

I started tinkering with DIY for the following reasons:
1) I am very finicky when it comes to taste. I liked many juices but would like certain things changed like how much flavour etc.
2) I was very impressed with VM's VM4 but wanted the profile changed to a more tobacco element. I initially mixed VM4 with various Liqua tobacco flavours which did not work.
3) I like messing with food and cake recipes and change recipes to suit my palate.

For me DIY is not really cheap but that is because I am constantly experimenting (I now have more than 30 flavour concentrates) but it has been very rewarding. I very seldom vape the juices I bought and that I am still trying. I end up giving it away. Some I have swopped and some I have even thrown away.

If you like a very small variety of juices then it would be cheap to mix for sure. However getting the flavour spot on is truly an art / or lots of experimentation which is very costly no doubt.

It is when you mix 5 or more flavours that it truly becomes an art. It is no different to a master chef that has created his own recipes. You might use the same ingredients in your creation but it could taste very different.
I could give you an exact list of ingredients in a recipe and yet you would most likely never be able to recreate it.

I have spent months doing this now and it is starting paying off big time for me. Access to proper ingredients (flavourants) is just as critical as the recipe itself. There are so many factors to creating a juice but just like cooking and baking I can give you an exact recipe down to the ml and you may or may not be able to recreate it.

But this post and @dragontw? has got me thinking..............as I have no intention of making a business from liquids should I make my recipes available to everyone on this forum or would it be prejudicing some who have put in a lot of time and effort into their products and deserve to reap the fruits of their labour? Should I put it to a vote?

No voting required, if you want to make your recipes available like @dragontw did, we shall all be over the moon with delight.

 

[dragontw]

I've been mixing juice for a long time. I also worked with a retail store to create their juice line. A LOT of work goes into creating a great juice and one that is worthy of retail. It also involves flavours from numerous sources not just from one supplier. It takes lots of sample making and changing one variable at a time until just the right blend. It is certainly not just punching numbers into a calculator.

Creating a single flavour juice is easy, but it's when you combine flavours that is when it gets tricky since certain flavours enhance each other and others cancel each other out etc.

I therefore respect other juice makers and if they want to sell it at premium that's their choice. No matter what industry there will always be people that will buy premium goods and that is also their choice. Does premium always equal better....I doubt it.

I haven't bought a retail juice in nearly a year because I don't see the need to. I feel I have enough experience so I can create a juice that is on par with retail juices. There is nothing more satisfying for me than sitting back and vaping on a juice...smile and say yup...I made that! I also understand that a lot of people do not want to go through all the trouble in learning the craft of juice making.

A lot of people get discouraged with DIY as it appears so simple on the surface but is everything but. I come from an industry (graphic design) where there is a strong culture of sharing. I have notebooks filled with recipes, so I have no problem in sharing a few of them. It feels great when I get a PM from someone that has made one of my recipes and loves it.

 

[Paul]

You think that liquid is better tasting but is it really ?

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...does-artistically-presented-food-taste-better

 

[ShaneW]

You think that liquid is better tasting but is it really ?

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...does-artistically-presented-food-taste-better

I was sent Bobas bounty in a plain unmarked bottle and its the best juice I've tasted. Yes looks can influence your perception of taste but we not staring at the bottle all day, we staring at our tanks.

 

[ET]

You think that liquid is better tasting but is it really ?

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...does-artistically-presented-food-taste-better

probably because most people are easily fooled. myself i hate all these artsy fartsy ways they are putting food on plates these days, just an excuse to put less on the plate. maybe i'm too old fashioned but i'd rather go buy a kg or rump steak and slap it on the braai instead of paying the same money for a spread out plate of little pieces of this and that

 

[Gizmo]

Look @Paul nobody is going to argue with that doing DIY is very cost effective, and Skyblue or Valley Vapor have you covered for that. However! Making a production line of juice that is legal has more costs then what meet the eye.

Firstly nicotine is a scheduled substance here in sunny SA. So for us at Vape King to make our own liquid we had to get it signed off by a chemist which luckily my brother is married to one. All our nicotine is produced locally, importing nicotine is a massive 50/50 chance. So really you cant take international pricing into account in my humble opnion.

All of our concentrates are imported and actually cost more the nicotine base and you need to add shipping and order in 3L bottles to make it commercially viable. Then labels and bottles and our hours need to be taken into account. If you work it out, we are not making as massive markup as what people assume we are. Yes its good, but its far from easy. The amount of man hours sharri and I spend making bottles on a daily basis to keep the stock levels up is not a task for the faint of heart.

I also intially thought making juice was a walk in the park, but its really something else. Harder then any other part of my busines.. Now we expanding to different nicotine strenghts which makes it even harder.

Now if you prefer to do it DIY and you saving some bucks, thats awesome for you! Most people don't have the patience or the care and just wanted a finished tasty product and that who we provide to. If thats not what you want then thats fine.. No need to attack either.

 

[Paul]

Look @Paul No need to attack either.

It's a forum. A place to discuss and argue. It's not the local bar with your mates where most of your audience will agree with you or not say anything for fear of offending you.
Since Roman & Greek times it's been accepted that in a forum as long as arguments dont lead to personal attacks then stuff can be argued with great passion. It would seem that many people cannot distinguish what a personal attack is and isn't.
So here's a few examples;
"The market prices are a ripoff" Not a personal attack.
"The stuff that XYZ vapours sells are a rip off" Personal attack if XYZ is a forum member.
"It's hard to tell the difference in taste between premium and DIY" Not a personal attack.
"Your taste buds must be messed up you haven't got a clue" Personal Attack.
A personal attack is when instead of arguing against what the poster had posted, you instead argue against the poster, accuse them of being stupid or misinformed or of breaking forum rules etc.

 

[Gizmo]

Fair enough

Sent from my SM-G900H using Tapatalk

 

[devdev]

 

[ET]

what's that @duckduck , thought you were devdev'ing there for a second

 

[Oupa]

Its very easy... two types of customers exist:

1. The DIY'er that is happy to go through the motions of obtaining the necesary parts for a juice and then having the patience to come up with a juice recipe they enjoy, or copy other recipes.

2. Then there is the customer that cannot be bothered with DIY for various reasons, i.e. too busy, ease of use of ready to vape juices, etc.

We were all used to popping into any shop, buy a box of cigarettes, open it, light it and presto.... instant nicotine fix. So most ecig users carries on with the tradition of ease of use. Buy a bottle of juice, fill tank and vape away... instant nicotine fix.

Lastly... e-liquid in South Africa is on par with the rest of the world. Some countries (in Europe) are more expensive and other countries (like the States) have the whole range, from very cheap to very expensive.

One thing is for certain, about two years ago your main choices for easily available e-liquid in SA were: Twisp or Liqua. Today it has grown to an industry with many choices of brands, flavours, styles and price ranges. New vapors are really spoiled for choice!

Bottom line: You like to DIY and create your own flavour combinations while saving a buck... great! Or you like to sample different ready to use e-liquids because of ease of use and availability (and sometimes awesome quality/flavours) and pay an extra buck... also great! Personal choice and personal opinion, like with anything else.