Question On Clones

[Simon Kruger]

Hi all,

I read alot of reviews and watch alot of channels, like GrimmGreen, PBusaro, RipTrippers etc and like everyone else, I want one of everything they are reviewing. when it comes to the availability of devices like the Hana Modz in South Africa, most of the time it is the clone, either from Fasttech or some other place. Is there a problem importing the actual product from the States, in the way of restrictions etc.

I am not saying the clone is not good, but it is not the real deal and without having both side by side to determine build quality and performance, how do we know that the clone is as good as the real deal?

If people are willing to spend R3000 on a Provari, I am sure they will spend the same for an authentic Hana Modz.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers

 

[Riaz]

good point @Simon Kruger

keep in mind that some people cannot afford the originals and opt for the clones (like me )

my question is, how much more different can it actually be- im talking about performance, not build quality

i have no doubt the quality will be a heck of a lot better in the original, but as for performance, im not really convinced.

is spending the extra cash for more or less the same performance worthit?

just my

 

[soonkia]

The problem boils down to availability of original, price point after import and market size.

For each original, there's a bunch of cloning companies that copy the basics and churn them out faster and cheaper than the original maker can. One of the biggest gripes is that you just can't get hold of the stuff, even if you have the money. Availability of Hana Modz is difficult world wide.

Also, our retailers are often small time operators - so holding stock of such high ticket items could potentially become a problem, as its a huge investment, that could go wrong quickly. Especially if you have MOQ's of 20+ units. And in a fast moving vape world, what's awesome today, is ho-hum tomorrow - there's always something better, stronger and a must have.

Other problem is vaping in SA is a very small market. It's growing, but still very small.

And there are not a lot of people willing to spend R2000+ on what's basically a battery holder, so your stock will be very slow moving.

I also dislike the clone thing horribly - cause you just don't know what you're getting when you buy it. There are a lot of bad stuff around this cloning business.

Make something similar, and put your own brand on it (or don't brand it at all)- and the world will be a happier place.

 

[Simon Kruger]

Granted, the performance will more than likely be close, however I do think build quaility would have a big say in it as well, you can get a clone for say $56 from Fasttech or buy locally for anywhere around R1000 to R1500.

I have seen the orignal selling for $250, the question though is durability, if the clone is slapped together, whereas the original is nurtured, how many clones you going to keep buying, what is the likely hood of it damaged your other equipment. Bearing mind I am talking about electronic mods and not mechanical mods as essentially that is just tubes of metal with no electronic parts.

Another questions, please forgive me if I am wrong, but how come we have not created our own local mechanical mods? If we have can someone point me in that direction?

 

[MarkK]

The right people have not found our scene yet, these mods are very simple to construct, Most of them have less then 10 parts.

It will kick off soon. There are even a few forum members designing and building their own mods, although i must admit I have not seen anything but development photos' so far.

 

[johan]

It is all very possible, main obstacle is quantities - you will not be economically competitive in manufacturing cost and/or price if you only manufacture a couple of 100 units.

 

[soonkia]

I agree with you @MarkK - we are still waiting for people that are really talented with making stuff with their hands, and have the tools to do it well - I did try my hand at modding and my results are way sub par.

Just don't have the know how on how to work with the materials - cutting Alluminium in straight line is a real pita with the wrong tools. But, I'm getting some woods, and seeing if that will be easier 0o

 

[MarkK]

I know the perfect guy who would take 1 look at our devices and go nuts producing all kinds of variations...

Unfortunately this guy sold his Lathe

Even the trip tips, we could turn any kind of SS or aluminium tip you want in like 5 to 10 mins, heck, he would even let you stand next to him and watch and help

 

[Xhale]

As said above (and from the point of being a vendor, once) you do not want to sit with the hot potato in your lap, stuffing up your cash flow.

From the point of someone who buys clones and originals, the performance (vape quality only) cant differ much, honestly. YTour coils and your wick setup is waaaay more important than if the stainless steel tube is 303 or 304, or 316 grade, or if the pins are copper or brass or whatever.

I dont like queues, or lists, or competitions and so on, so most of the time I dont even go near originals. I just dont buy how they decided to work this market. Availability is scarce, and I'm gonna say it, it is artificially in most cases. Clones half the time are used as spare parts for the originals, just like buying brembo brakes when audi have stopped making your pads. Same shit to me. Generic medicines are often handed out at the counter instead of what "the doctor ordered".

That said, ripping off the exact names and logos could well stop, I want the thing to be designed as the original, but couldnt care for fancy-smanshy logos that some bloke got his friend to knock up in photoshop (or ripped off a tshirt design) or whatever.

Now, I've just bought a cloned hana myself. Yes, $56. Yes, I am still waiting for it. The point of it is, a dna30 chip (original) can be had for around 40pounds here by me. That, and the intial purchase cost would still be half or the original. The bits I will retain are a metal box, some switches and some wires. And I can do that twice and still be up on the money side.

I tend to look at it from the medicine point of view. Is it a good idea is loads of people have access to cancer drugs at an affordable price? Would we "boo!" a company that charges extremely high prices for a life-changing drug? What if an alternate unendorsed product is available at a tenth of the cost?. Yes, we can buy ego kits and use them, and leave the high-end stuff to the rich. But the high-end stuff is meant to be better, works better etc. So thats akin to saying you can have the shitty drugs, but the ones that work are for the elite of our society.

I did make some stuff myself, so went through the r+d bit, stayed in the prototype phase and I STILL could sell them at a reasonable cost. When tube-maker-xyz throws his toys out the cot because china inc. has cloned his design and can sell it for a tenth, I always wonder "well, why dont you do the same then, stop moaning". Because of small production runs, most likely the initial r+d cost is already absorbed after the first batch. Because you dont know if there is ever going to be a batch#2...it could flop.

China would get access to your device in batch#2 probably. So there, you have recouped your cost in r+d already. And I know that 99% of the originals are made on industrial cnc machines too, not handmade like some would like you to believe. And the mod maker didnt go spend $100k on a cnc machine (although I think the guys that did microstick have gone this route), he contracts the work out, so each tube has the cost of manufacture included in the price.

There have been a few mod makers openly saying they wouldnt mind having their stuff cloned. Me too. Global exposure would mean "I" would have steady orders as some people insist on buying originals and supporting the mod maker.

This isnt Nike, or Rolex, this is something that can change someones health. I would like to see as many as possible using this method. We dont all have the funds. So when a mod is $200+ I think to myself how much money you want to make, not how many people you want to help.
And I guess that defines my personality and my point of view on these things.

 

[RevnLucky7]

good point @Simon Kruger
my question is, how much more different can it actually be- im talking about performance,

Don't be too quick to assume this.

I ran an original Surefure King side by side with it's clone counterpart.

The clone had a drop in voltage under load of almost .6 volts.
So on a fully charged battery at 4.2 you think you're getting max power when in fact you're vaping at 3.6 volts.

How would a new guy really know the difference when he has nothing to compare it to.
This was done using the same authentic Quasar atty.

We then screwed on a clone Quasar and the results were staggering. At the posts this setup was losing .8 volts.
How many guys actually test this?

So while not all clones are mayor in drop I can promise you most of them drop way more than one of quality alloys. This was the day I said no to clones. Many buy them for reasons such as price points and so forth, but 99% of the time the alloys used are less conductive.

Voltage drop is something never really discussed on this forum and since no one is testing it on their mods, no one really knows a good clone from a bad one.

 

[Xhale]

bad form replying to mysel, but was thinking about what I wrote.
This to me is more about where the countries stand in terms of living costs, but I'll add it to the conversation. I agree everybody needs to make some money. We gotta try define what is an ok amount to make. Because only then to we find a numeric price point called "value".
So, lets talk about this spot-on v3 flip I got a few of. Is it as good as the original? dont know? Is it possibly 95% as good? Probably. If the original, when released, was exactly exactly like the clone...would it have sold? Yes, without doubt.
So the original maker could have cut the cost a bit and stll produced a product on par with our (the buyers) expectations. By cutting the cost, please dont infer I mean "make it shit"...more like, did it need to spend 2 hours being engraved, or could we have done half the deptch and half hour engraving. It would still have been a good product with unique looks.

OK, so how about cost of manufacture. I'm sure fastech stil makes money, and they buy it from someone else who still makes money too. So they are, at best, second in the chain. Originals come straight from the horses mouth most of the time. Less people skimming their profit.

You could contract your original manufacturing process to china, have them make it to your specs, with a "nod" to let them pay you e.g. $0.50 per clone they make, and everybody turns a blind eye. If I can come up with this, then no doubt somebody is already doing this, as I'm not the most shrewd guy around.

China will make you what you want. They dont "think" when asked to make something in the sens that if you want a R10 car, they will find a way to make a R10 "car", it wont be good. They know it already, but you ASKED for a R10 car. It is the way their culture works, and how things get done over there. SO you ask for a ipad, they will make an ipad. You ask for a $35 tablet, they will make you one...same factory, same deisgners. They know the $35 one wont be good. Not stupid, just following instructions.

i'll get to my point now.
Some people like to talk about how china can do that because of poor living standards and cheap labour costs. I get that argument, but always ask yourself WHY.
Why do I need e.g. 2000pounds a month just to stand still, just to pay bills, not getting anywhere? Why when a chinese person can do the same thing on $200? I'll start by looking at my expenses. Housing.
Its all about housing, its my biggest bill, by far.
IF I spent 10%of my earnings on housing, I would be able to stand still on 500pounds a month. I could effectively work cheaper, which would make the product cheaper.

In the last decade and a bit here (uk) and here(s.a.) housing has almost tripled. Our kids are gonna fsck us up when it is their turn to buy. I dont get how we can get richer passing the same pile of second hand bricks to each other, each time increasing the price. I only see how we get poorer. We spend mor eon servicing our loans.

Tell me, if my mortgage is R500k, how much does the bank make? And if my mortgage is R2bar, how much does the bank make? Who, has the largest vested interest in high housing costs? We could point at china all day and say "those bastards, paying low wages", and this isnt going to make me more popular, but we should be pointing at ourselves and asking us if we are nuts.

Lets do an example. I have a 3bedroom gaf, I want a 4 bedroom gaf. Price is maybe R400k difference.
Houses go up 20%, I celebrate, get pissed, yay, I am richer.
except, my 4bed gaf that was R400k away is now R480k away.
It is FURTHER. And will cost more to service that loan, the same damn bricks that have sat there for 50 years doing nothing are now going to make the banks more money.
I will spend more of my salary on that loan, will have less desposable income, and will be forced to demand more coin for my work. Increasing the cost of goods.

So, to me, it is all tied to this ridiculous housing bubble post sep2001, post dotcom crash. China has risen up, but only becase we let them by making our own costs too high to compete.

/rant over

 

[Gizmo]

As said above (and from the point of being a vendor, once) you do not want to sit with the hot potato in your lap, stuffing up your cash flow.

From the point of someone who buys clones and originals, the performance (vape quality only) cant differ much, honestly. YTour coils and your wick setup is waaaay more important than if the stainless steel tube is 303 or 304, or 316 grade, or if the pins are copper or brass or whatever.

I dont like queues, or lists, or competitions and so on, so most of the time I dont even go near originals. I just dont buy how they decided to work this market. Availability is scarce, and I'm gonna say it, it is artificially in most cases. Clones half the time are used as spare parts for the originals, just like buying brembo brakes when audi have stopped making your pads. Same shit to me. Generic medicines are often handed out at the counter instead of what "the doctor ordered".

That said, ripping off the exact names and logos could well stop, I want the thing to be designed as the original, but couldnt care for fancy-smanshy logos that some bloke got his friend to knock up in photoshop (or ripped off a tshirt design) or whatever.

Now, I've just bought a cloned hana myself. Yes, $56. Yes, I am still waiting for it. The point of it is, a dna30 chip (original) can be had for around 40pounds here by me. That, and the intial purchase cost would still be half or the original. The bits I will retain are a metal box, some switches and some wires. And I can do that twice and still be up on the money side.

I tend to look at it from the medicine point of view. Is it a good idea is loads of people have access to cancer drugs at an affordable price? Would we "boo!" a company that charges extremely high prices for a life-changing drug? What if an alternate unendorsed product is available at a tenth of the cost?. Yes, we can buy ego kits and use them, and leave the high-end stuff to the rich. But the high-end stuff is meant to be better, works better etc. So thats akin to saying you can have the shitty drugs, but the ones that work are for the elite of our society.

I did make some stuff myself, so went through the r+d bit, stayed in the prototype phase and I STILL could sell them at a reasonable cost. When tube-maker-xyz throws his toys out the cot because china inc. has cloned his design and can sell it for a tenth, I always wonder "well, why dont you do the same then, stop moaning". Because of small production runs, most likely the initial r+d cost is already absorbed after the first batch. Because you dont know if there is ever going to be a batch#2...it could flop.

China would get access to your device in batch#2 probably. So there, you have recouped your cost in r+d already. And I know that 99% of the originals are made on industrial cnc machines too, not handmade like some would like you to believe. And the mod maker didnt go spend $100k on a cnc machine (although I think the guys that did microstick have gone this route), he contracts the work out, so each tube has the cost of manufacture included in the price.

There have been a few mod makers openly saying they wouldnt mind having their stuff cloned. Me too. Global exposure would mean "I" would have steady orders as some people insist on buying originals and supporting the mod maker.

This isnt Nike, or Rolex, this is something that can change someones health. I would like to see as many as possible using this method. We dont all have the funds. So when a mod is $200+ I think to myself how much money you want to make, not how many people you want to help.
And I guess that defines my personality and my point of view on these things.

Read below

 

[Gizmo]

Words out of my mouth. These Handa Modz that sold out soo quickly echo the buying power of South African vapers. When I brough in the 20W Seigeli which is an original mod at an original price and their sales where just satisfactory. Took 2 months to sell out. So for us its a factor on how quickly we can flip stock. Dead stock is lost income and we cannot afford that risk.

 

[Gizmo]

Don't be too quick to assume this.

I ran an original Surefure King side by side with it's clone counterpart.

The clone had a drop in voltage under load of almost .6 volts.
So on a fully charged battery at 4.2 you think you're getting max power when in fact you're vaping at 3.6 volts.

How would a new guy really know the difference when he has nothing to compare it to.
This was done using the same authentic Quasar atty.

We then screwed on a clone Quasar and the results were staggering. At the posts this setup was losing .8 volts.
How many guys actually test this?

So while not all clones are mayor in drop I can promise you most of them drop way more than one of quality alloys. This was the day I said no to clones. Many buy them for reasons such as price points and so forth, but 99% of the time the alloys used are less conductive.

Voltage drop is something never really discussed on this forum and since no one is testing it on their mods, no one really knows a good clone from a bad one.

As for mech mods. I am sure their voltage drop is a tad worse with clones. But as much as .6 Volts i highly doubt. I have an original King Mod from you and in fact it hits no different than a clone nemesis in my 2cent opnion.

I am sure if I anaylze it with a meter it will show a tad difference but not that steep of a difference. Not enough to warrant a $250 extra "royalty". I am sorry thats my opnion.

Also If I was to spend that kind of money in a mod in this era. It will have to be a regulated device with high wattage capacitity.

 

[RevnLucky7]

As for mech mods. I am sure their voltage drop is a tad worse with clones. But as much as .6 Volts i highly doubt. I have an original King Mod from you and in fact it hits no different than a clone nemesis in my 2cent opnion.

I am sure if I anaylze it with a meter it will show a tad difference but not that steep of a difference. Not enough to warrant a $250 extra "royalty". I am sorry thats my opnion.

Also If I was to spend that kind of money in a mod in this era. It will have to be a regulated device with high wattage capacitity.

Your doubts are yours to have, but I ran the two myself - I saw it with my own eyes.
This is not the same for all clones however. Some clones are well respected, like the Nemenis and I have seen many that perform well. You own the original King, so I'm sure we're not going to factor in build quality here... so lets put build quality aside because I'm yet to find to meet someone to tell me a clone compares and said someone will need to base this on more than just a picture they've seen on a website.

Anyway... I'm with you on the dead stock thing. I completely understand why clones are out there and why they are readily carried by most retailers and why many people by them. What I won't have is someone trying to convince me there's no difference between the two having been fortunate enough to walk and play with so many in B&M's. Voltage drop is a huge sell tactic and customers ask to see drops before they buy mods. You can expect that from anyone who walks into a B&M looking for a new mod. They will ask if the shop owner will show them.

99% of clones I've handled feels like a tin can compared to it's autentic counter part. I've seen clones bend by being dropped

Hell you could probably bend them with your two hands. That Surefire of yours could probably take out a good chunk of brick in a wall.

Once I see posts flying around the forum that autentics mods and clones have no differences between them - we're surely on the wrong track - this is blatant nonsense. Does it justify the price tag? Well this up to each having their own. Thanks to clones, everyone has an option.

One thing I love about hard to find autentics - is resale value. I've had an offer for $600 to purchase my Limited Edition Diamon Knurled King. It's spotless and will most probably never be made again. I only bought it for $300.

I can flip my ZNA for $600 easily, but in doing so will put me on Zen's blacklist.
Gepetto Slap Heads and Elite V2's are now selling for $666 and I've seen a Slap Head Auction for $2500.
There's a certain element of beauty and sophistication that comes from owning one of these pieces.

For the guys who don't know Gepetto:

Mods like these are one mans art form. Just as stainless and box mods are another man art.
The Chinese take these things and rape them.

And this is why we will probably always sit on opposite sides of the fense on this topic. I'm not saying this one is right and this one is wrong, as I know that as retailers we look at this obsession of ours from two completely different perspectives.

I'm at a point where I just want to throw my hands up in the air with this flood of clones, but at the same time the fact that the Chinese can rape something so quickly is pushing modders to get even more creative. And so far, this year, some really beautiful pieces of art have hit the market.

 

[RevnLucky7]

Also If I was to spend that kind of money in a mod in this era. It will have to be a regulated device with high wattage capacitity.

Sorry, still wanted to comment on this...
These regulated devices are popular, and this is off topic so I'd like to welcome some opinions on it.

I'm not getting the 50W and higher thing going on at the moment.
30W is already pointless to a degree... it's bordering.

I can understand a mod running at 20W since most of us using these things run tanks systems, so battery life is good. Push 30W, battery life is out the window. I see some manufacturers are releasing 50W mods with 2100mah internal battery packs now. This to me is just stupid.

Only way I see this kind of wattage working is on a 4000+ battery to make it viable.
I'd like to see them skip this whole "Hey my watts are bigger than yours" step and come up with something that looks like the Black Oak from Continental Mods, but has 50W - 100W regulation features in it... and maybe even houses 2 26650 batteries. Then we're somewhere in the ballpark of playing high wattage regulation games.

Maybe I'm missing something here.

 

[Riaz]

if it werent for clones, A LOT of us on this forum (including myself) would not have had the opportunity to feel whats its like to hold and use a nemesis/ russian/ kayfun/ hana/ cana/ etc etc etc

some people just cannot justify spending all the $ just for authenticity, and thats the bottom line

clones are there and people will continue buying them for their own reasons whether who says what, and you know what, they will be happy with its performance purely based on the fact that they bought what they could afford.

so who are we to shove down their throats that authentic is better than clones, so what!

voltage drop is evident, who gives a toot-

im off stinkies, im healthier, that was the point in the beginning wasnt it?

 

[Gizmo]

Your doubts are yours to have, but I ran the two myself - I saw it with my own eyes.
This is not the same for all clones however. Some clones are well respected, like the Nemenis and I have seen many that perform well. You own the original King, so I'm sure we're not going to factor in build quality here... so lets put build quality aside because I'm yet to find to meet someone to tell me a clone compares and said someone will need to base this on more than just a picture they've seen on a website.

Anyway... I'm with you on the dead stock thing. I completely understand why clones are out there and why they are readily carried by most retailers and why many people by them. What I won't have is someone trying to convince me there's no difference between the two having been fortunate enough to walk and play with so many in B&M's. Voltage drop is a huge sell tactic and customers ask to see drops before they buy mods. You can expect that from anyone who walks into a B&M looking for a new mod. They will ask if the shop owner will show them.

99% of clones I've handled feels like a tin can compared to it's autentic counter part. I've seen clones bend by being dropped

Hell you could probably bend them with your two hands. That Surefire of yours could probably take out a good chunk of brick in a wall.

Once I see posts flying around the forum that autentics mods and clones have no differences between them - we're surely on the wrong track - this is blatant nonsense. Does it justify the price tag? Well this up to each having their own. Thanks to clones, everyone has an option.

One thing I love about hard to find autentics - is resale value. I've had an offer for $600 to purchase my Limited Edition Diamon Knurled King. It's spotless and will most probably never be made again. I only bought it for $300.

I can flip my ZNA for $600 easily, but in doing so will put me on Zen's blacklist.
Gepetto Slap Heads and Elite V2's are now selling for $666 and I've seen a Slap Head Auction for $2500.
There's a certain element of beauty and sophistication that comes from owning one of these pieces.

For the guys who don't know Gepetto:

Mods like these are one mans art form. Just as stainless and box mods are another man art.
The Chinese take these things and rape them.

And this is why we will probably always sit on opposite sides of the fense on this topic. I'm not saying this one is right and this one is wrong, as I know that as retailers we look at this obsession of ours from two completely different perspectives.

I'm at a point where I just want to throw my hands up in the air with this flood of clones, but at the same time the fact that the Chinese can rape something so quickly is pushing modders to get even more creative. And so far, this year, some really beautiful pieces of art have hit the market.

I was not arguing build quality differences. Just the performance difference. I still beg to differ unless we can sit down one day and you can show me this.

 

[RevnLucky7]

I was not arguing build quality differences. Just the performance difference. I still beg to differ unless we can sit down one day and you can show me this.

We'll put a round of drinks on it
Tin does not conduct a current very well.

 

[RevnLucky7]

if it werent for clones, A LOT of us on this forum (including myself) would not have had the opportunity to feel whats its like to hold and use a nemesis/ russian/ kayfun/ hana/ cana/ etc etc etc

some people just cannot justify spending all the $ just for authenticity, and thats the bottom line

clones are there and people will continue buying them for their own reasons whether who says what, and you know what, they will be happy with its performance purely based on the fact that they bought what they could afford.

so who are we to shove down their throats that authentic is better than clones, so what!

voltage drop is evident, who gives a toot-

im off stinkies, im healthier, that was the point in the beginning wasnt it?

We're not going down the to clone or not clone lane and I fully agree with you.
A topic like this can always lead to hell in a hand basket.
As I posted above, I get it. I fully understand why they are there and what purpose they serve.

But I'm not with this "There's no difference" thing.
If there was no difference, there's be no high end mods and if there was no high end mods, thhe Chinese would have no idea what to build, as they can't seem to design things on their own.

 

[Riaz]

We're not going down the to clone or not clone lane and I fully agree with you.
A topic like this can always lead to hell in a hand basket.
As I posted above, I get it. I fully understand why they are there and what purpose they serve.

But I'm not with this "There's no difference thing".
If there was no difference, there's be no high end mods.

there definitely is a difference, im in agreement with that, no doubt

difference in price for one and then build quality and then probably performance.

 

[RevnLucky7]

there definitely is a difference, im in agreement with that, no doubt

difference in price for one and then build quality and then probably performance.

Yeah, the price tags are a biatch. No arguments there.

 

[eviltoy]

Sorry, still wanted to comment on this...
These regulated devices are popular, and this is off topic so I'd like to welcome some opinions on it.

I'm not getting the 50W and higher thing going on at the moment.
30W is already pointless to a degree... it's bordering.

I can understand a mod running at 20W since most of us using these things run tanks systems, so battery life is good. Push 30W, battery life is out the window. I see some manufacturers are releasing 50W mods with 2100mah internal battery packs now. This to me is just stupid.

Only way I see this kind of wattage working is on a 4000+ battery to make it viable.
I'd like to see them skip this whole "Hey my watts are bigger than yours" step and come up with something that looks like the Black Oak from Continental Mods, but has 50W - 100W regulation features in it... and maybe even houses 2 26650 batteries. Then we're somewhere in the ballpark of playing high wattage regulation games.

Maybe I'm missing something here.

I agree with this I havent even gotten to 20w or seen a need for it yet on mine

 

[Riaz]

I agree with this I havent even gotten to 20w or seen a need for it yet on mine

keyword: yet

 

[RevnLucky7]

I agree with this I havent even gotten to 20w or seen a need for it yet on mine

Aye...
Running a dripper on 30W regulated is fun. If viable battery life was part of the package, I'd flip to dripping NOW. But I don't see myself carrying around a bag full of batteries everyday. This is what's pulling me towards 26650's. Any dual coil dripper at 40W is a cracking flavorfull vape with some battery life to support it, although I wish it was regulated. This will come soon... high, regulated power with big battery support will be here very soon and for the first time ever the words dripper, and regulated mod will go hand in hand as there is no point running a tank at those kinds of watts.