The Secret is out

[Intuthu Kagesi]

Having recycled disposables for some months now, we decided to do some analysis of the vape juice remaining in them ... and ... the secret is out.

The majority tested contained l-α-aspartyl-N-(2,2,4,4-tetramethyl-3-thioethanyl)-d-alaninamide, (Alitame).
This is an temperature stable amino acid-based sweetener permitted for use in foods in South Africa, (albeit that it's banned in a few too), and is some 2000 times sweeter than sucralose , (which is already some 600 times sweeter than sugar) ... and now you know why disposables are as sweet as they are

The eliquid tested respective pH's were also acidic at between 4.5 and 6, (with fairly substantial traces of Sodium Chloride to boot), implying that their goals are indeed nefarious in my humble opinion, attempting to not only improve the reuptake of high %'s of nicotine, but to hide the "taste" of it.

Sidenote:
Due to the increased uptake of nicotine in Nicotine Salts the equivalent values would be 2mg/ml Nicotine Salts roughly equal to 12mg/ml Freebase Nicotine ...
Lowering the pH further would further improve the reuptake, (which is what disposable manufacturers are doing).

 

[Resistance]

Thanks for that. Time and effort appreciated.
Question. Do we Only use this info for awareness.

 

[Intuthu Kagesi]

Thanks for that. Time and effort appreciated.
Question. Do we Only use this info for awareness.

You're most welcome
Apropos your question ... Knowledge is power ... use it as you see fit ... Apparently , (according to our illustrious semi educated powers that be, aka government), Alitame is safe for human consumption, in which case South African juice manufacturers may wish to take advantage of this knowledge and compete against the Chinese? or; Disposable and Salts eliquid manufacturers could do the right thing and lower Salt Nicotine levels, (obviously reducing the need for high concentrates of flavours and sweeteners in the process), or we could just ban the bloody disposables and go back to known quantities.

 

[Stranger]

Blows your mind doesn't it. Thanks mate for the info.

After years of promoting smoking and then having backlash, big tobacco started with additives to keep you smoking, now we see the same cycle with vaping.

Who is is catching, the youngsters, the very people we do not want addicted to nicotine. This world is an insidious place.

 

[Intuthu Kagesi]

Just in ...
It seems that the balance of disposables tested had another sweetener present, Neotame, (3S)-3-[(3,3-Dimethylbutyl)amino]-4-{[(2S)-1-methoxy-1-oxo-3-phenylpropan-2-yl]amino}-4-oxobutanoic acid ... and it is 8000 times sweeter than sucrose, no that's not a typo ... Eight Thousand Times Sweeter! and ... Surprise ... it's also on the allowable in SA sweetener list

Interesting reading ... https://pinnaclefitness707.com/blog...e-between-stevia-sucrosesplenda-and-sucralose

 

[zandernwn]

You have used many words and with all of it jumbled all together it sounds very scary and intimidating...


BUT

Most of what you are saying it not at all as alarming as you make it out to be, if you understand the basic principles behind how NicSalts work

ALL Nice salts are acidic.
Acidity makes it easier to ingest vaporized nic as it removes the throat hit
Improving nicotine absorption is more a function of vapour pressure than PH.
Aldamine is actually very srable at high temps, making it a pretty good option for vaporization ( but i will be the first to admit that i know very little about it and will not comment until i know more)

So most of this is not unique to cheap chinese disposables...

Do I agree that Chinese manufacturers will cut corners wherever they can? ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY!!

But... In my honest opinion, I do not feel like the information you presented is particularly revealing or damaging... At least not if no substantiating information is provided to definitely illustrate the harm this causes... Most of the information is what is commonly known in terms of gow nicotine salts work and as for the sweeteners... Like i said I'll comment once I know more about them... Just because they have long chemical names does not mean they are harmful

Dihydrogen Oxide is a good example of this.

 

[Resistance]

Well I think it's viable info, thanks for that.
Anyone can still decide how they want to use the info and do a bit more research of their own.
One thing I didn't know is how food and drink manufacturers manipulate some of these "(chemicals) "to react with the brain and bind with certain receptors and that's also legal. Found that out recently so I'm trying to wean myself off soft drinks again.

 

[Intuthu Kagesi]

You have used many words and with all of it jumbled all together it sounds very scary and intimidating...


BUT

Most of what you are saying it not at all as alarming as you make it out to be, if you understand the basic principles behind how NicSalts work

ALL Nice salts are acidic.
Acidity makes it easier to ingest vaporized nic as it removes the throat hit
Improving nicotine absorption is more a function of vapour pressure than PH.
Aldamine is actually very srable at high temps, making it a pretty good option for vaporization ( but i will be the first to admit that i know very little about it and will not comment until i know more)

So most of this is not unique to cheap chinese disposables...

Do I agree that Chinese manufacturers will cut corners wherever they can? ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY!!

But... In my honest opinion, I do not feel like the information you presented is particularly revealing or damaging... At least not if no substantiating information is provided to definitely illustrate the harm this causes... Most of the information is what is commonly known in terms of gow nicotine salts work and as for the sweeteners... Like i said I'll comment once I know more about them... Just because they have long chemical names does not mean they are harmful

Dihydrogen Oxide is a good example of this.

With respect zandernwn, methinks you missed the point of my post, which was on masking nicotine in disposables, however as you've raised it, and, as I've posted previously on the subject, herewith;

Yes Nic salts are acidic, (hence the name ... Salts in chemistry are acids), and yes, they are not only "easier" to inhale, but also that their reuptake is substantially quicker and more efficient, so much so, that blood nicotine levels of 2mg/ml of Nicotine Salts are much the same as FreeBase Nicotine at 12mg/ml, (which it just so happens, is much the same as an an average "full strength" cigarette).
Juul not only discovered this process, but were also the first to commercially abuse it, (and patent it too mind you), and they were caught out on their deceit and prosecuted for same ... The Chinese / Disposable companies however have taken this to new heights ... but back to my story;

Juul took advantage of both the heightened reuptake and lessened throat hit sure, and they provided Nicotine Salts at some 10 to 12mg/ml concentration, (remembering that 2mg/ml of Salts is equal to 12mg/ml of Freebase on reuptake), and we know what happened to Juul once they were caught out for pushing levels five times higher than freebase and or the average full strength cigarette.

Bring on Chinese Disposables, and the model has been pushed even further, Juuls 10 to 12 mg/ml has become 50mg/ml, and the deceit has gone to new heights ... Not only are they using enhanced sweeteners and higher concentrations of flavours to mask the reintroduction of a throat hit at five times higher levels than Juul managed, but they have further lowered the pH of the juices they use, (ie. made it more acidic), to lessen the throat irritation, whilst increasing the reuptake to levels never seen before ... What a wonderful, (spelt deceitful), business model ... Overload the olfactory with wonderful flavours, with nicotine hidden from same, and get the vaper addicted as quickly as possible ...

One needs to ask why? to which the answer is fairly obvious ... the higher Disposable Manufacturers can push the nicotine levels without you realising that you're even having any ... the quicker / easier they get you addicted / entrenched as a customer, (a similar business model to what Juul followed, only that they've raised the bar), and that my friend is the point, and for the record ... THEY ARE HARMFUL, to which all information referenced in this post is in the public domain ...
If their intentions were indeed honorable, and it was all about fulfilling a desire as apposed creating an addiction driven need, (or even the original reason for vapes, namely harm REDUCTION / smoking cessation), then why the need for such high levels of nicotine, and; Why try so desperately to hide it with super concentrated flavours and sweeteners?

 

[Chickenstrip]

l-α-aspartyl-N-(2,2,4,4-tetramethyl-3-thioethanyl)-d-alaninamide, (Alitame).

Is this available in concentrate form? Where can I get this?

I have done away with disposables. But I really miss the sweetness and all the regular sweeteners gunk up my coils to the point where I just dont use them anymore. I'm already inhaling a billion and 3 chemicals so I'm not much bothered by the potential effects. Much like most people who happily inhale diacetyl.

 

[Chickenstrip]

Neotame, (3S)-3-[(3,3-Dimethylbutyl)amino]-4-{[(2S)-1-methoxy-1-oxo-3-phenylpropan-2-yl]amino}-4-oxobutanoic acid

Or this

 

[Intuthu Kagesi]

Is this available in concentrate form? Where can I get this?

I have done away with disposables. But I really miss the sweetness and all the regular sweeteners gunk up my coils to the point where I just dont use them anymore. I'm already inhaling a billion and 3 chemicals so I'm not much bothered by the potential effects. Much like most people who happily inhale diacetyl.

Wits source chemicals from industrial and pharmaceutical suppliers. Samples for Alimame and Neotame were sourced from Pfizer and BOC Sciences respectfully. There are a number of manufacturers bringing it into SA, however I'm not sure that either is available in the retail market, save to say that it's a business opportunity for someone to import some raws in bulk, mix it up with Propylene Glycol and or compress it into tablet form for commercial consumption?

 

[Chickenstrip]

Definitely! I wonder if @Nick Black would be interested?

 

[zandernwn]

With respect zandernwn, methinks you missed the point of my post, which was on masking nicotine in disposables, however as you've raised it, and, as I've posted previously on the subject, herewith;

Yes Nic salts are acidic, (hence the name ... Salts in chemistry are acids), and yes, they are not only "easier" to inhale, but also that their reuptake is substantially quicker and more efficient, so much so, that blood nicotine levels of 2mg/ml of Nicotine Salts are much the same as FreeBase Nicotine at 12mg/ml, (which it just so happens, is much the same as an an average "full strength" cigarette).
Juul not only discovered this process, but were also the first to commercially abuse it, (and patent it too mind you), and they were caught out on their deceit and prosecuted for same ... The Chinese / Disposable companies however have taken this to new heights ... but back to my story;

Juul took advantage of both the heightened reuptake and lessened throat hit sure, and they provided Nicotine Salts at some 10 to 12mg/ml concentration, (remembering that 2mg/ml of Salts is equal to 12mg/ml of Freebase on reuptake), and we know what happened to Juul once they were caught out for pushing levels five times higher than freebase and or the average full strength cigarette.

Bring on Chinese Disposables, and the model has been pushed even further, Juuls 10 to 12 mg/ml has become 50mg/ml, and the deceit has gone to new heights ... Not only are they using enhanced sweeteners and higher concentrations of flavours to mask the reintroduction of a throat hit at five times higher levels than Juul managed, but they have further lowered the pH of the juices they use, (ie. made it more acidic), to lessen the throat irritation, whilst increasing the reuptake to levels never seen before ... What a wonderful, (spelt deceitful), business model ... Overload the olfactory with wonderful flavours, with nicotine hidden from same, and get the vaper addicted as quickly as possible ...

One needs to ask why? to which the answer is fairly obvious ... the higher Disposable Manufacturers can push the nicotine levels without you realising that you're even having any ... the quicker / easier they get you addicted / entrenched as a customer, (a similar business model to what Juul followed, only that they've raised the bar), and that my friend is the point, and for the record ... THEY ARE HARMFUL, to which all information referenced in this post is in the public domain ...
If their intentions were indeed honorable, and it was all about fulfilling a desire as apposed creating an addiction driven need, (or even the original reason for vapes, namely harm REDUCTION / smoking cessation), then why the need for such high levels of nicotine, and; Why try so desperately to hide it with super concentrated flavours and sweeteners?

I do not comment often; but this is absurd beyond a point where I can tolerate it. You are the reason people are confused about vaping!

The point of the post is clear to me. you have done just enough research to be a dangerous source of information and to feel like you can get street cred for your efforts by posting ill-informed conspiracy kak on here with half-baked facts and untruths without considering the consequences of your rhetoric.

I will make this clear from the get go, I am only posting a reply to help those people understand how your post is wrong so that they can walk away and make the right decision for their health: "Drop the stinkies and start vaping!"

You are fear mongering and making false claims in an effort to sound smart; but the Net effect is you are confusing new vapers who come to this forum to find out about vaping as a less harmful alternative and making it seem like it is bad idea. It is outright irresponsible.

History of Vaping:
Your claims are false.

(Jull Labs inc. CA2909967A1)
18mg juices existed LONG before Juul and it was isolate and not salts.
Juul is US based company not chinese.
Nicotine salts was a positive improvement in vaping technology that closed that gap between tobacco and vaping by improving the nic absorption rate.
Before that vaping was limited to sub 18mg with extremely low levels of absorption; due to TH and absorption levels THIS WAS A BAD THING because people, generally speaking, who tried to switch from tobacco to vaping did not enjoy the TH of high nic juices and did no not feel like their cravings subsided due to the deceased absorption rates for free-base nic.

Care to explain if this was an honest mistake or if you were just taking a chance to put erroneous info out there to give your statements some sort of false "credibility"?

Absorption rate:
Your claims are false

It is well understood - both scientifically and in the vaping community that NS has a better absorption rate than isolate - and that this was probably the most significant and positive development in vaping technology since it's advent. who would have know by mimicking how nicotine is found in its organic form would have such a big impact?
You are claiming they are intentionally deceiving us to believe we ingesting less nicotine than what we are. Yet Nic levels are clearly marked and the label tells you if it is free-base or NicSalts.

Edited in: may I also add that the PH alone is not the key factor behind the increased absorption (that predominantly helped with the throat hit), Vapour Pressure, on the other hand, was the determining factor for increased increased absorption of the nicotine.

Care to elaborate on how exactly this is a secret or conspiracy that they are hiding this from us to make us more addictive or were you bargaining on me just taking that claim at face value?

2. Juul "Caught Out":
Your claims are false

Juul was never "Caught out" - they launched a high-nic product off the back of a patented technology - was it controversial? perhaps. Do I agree with that? No - and many many on here can attest that I was very vocal against the matter of high-nic products

(We manufactured vape juices and we developed our own Nicotine salt formulations - I personally oversaw the development of our nicsalts and I did IN-DEPTH research for MONTHS to understand everything about it - During testing high-nic products I experienced an increase in cravings and that, to me, was not a rabbit hole I wanted vaping to go down. ALAS.) "

Can you prove they were caught out and prosecuted or did you just add that for a little dramatic effect?

Nic Levels:
Your claims are false

You claim Juul had a 18mg Nicsalt product? this is objectively false. they had 18mg freebase products and only increased it beyond that after the advent of nicotine salts. altough I would naturally assume people tried higher nic levels but found it un-vapable and we eventually settled on that as max of 18mg because people just weren't buying juices with a terrible taste and throat hit.

Happy to take evidence that proves the contrary or were you a naughty boy and hoped we would just skim over that one too?

4. Mysterious flavours and sweeteners with long names:
Your claims are false

Flavours, sweeteners and additives are not used to mask the nicotive levels, they are use to make your vaping experience more pleasant than the cigarette ash in lukewarm water taste of combustibles thus making making vaping the most effective less-harmful smoking cessation tool the world has even seen.
MTL and pod devices require higher flavouring and sweeteners levels due to the difference in airflow when compared to DL. in MTL and Pod devices is is common that some flavour and sweetener levels are significanlty increased (typically between 120% & to 250%) for the taste to be as pronounced as they would be in a large airflow device.
New-age sweeteners that are "8000 gajillion" times sweeter are use to lower costs and improve coil lifespan due to the concentrations used (again I will reiterate that I am not familiar enough with these SPECIFIC sweeteners you mentioned to conclusively state that they are safe but I have read into it and they meet the basic criteria of being food-grade, GRAS and well as heat stable - if you need more evidence than that then you will be surprised to know that that is the criteria applied to all the other commonly used sweeteners including surclalose)

But seeing as you are the expert with these sweeteners and made the claim that there is something nefarious about their use, I welcome any reading material you can furnish me with to show that they are in fact as mysterious and dangerous as you claim? Or were you betting on the fact that we will just take your claim at face value?

6. Hiding Super-concentrates and flavourings:
I can't even.

What even are you saying, mate? they are using SUPER concentrates made in some labs in Wuhan next to the Covid-19 factory in an illuminate lab for the purposes of enslaving you to the capitalist overlords? You give humans too much credit. I can't even deliver a market-sensitive 2 year project on time and in budget with dedicated 25 man squad without someone accidentally running their mouth to their grandma and our competitors somehow finding out.. If you want to see a super-concentrate then any DIY juice maker will tell you not look any further that FLV Cinnamon haha.

Kindly elaborate for us we would love the hear all about these obscure, new-word-tech super-concentrates and sweeteners?

7. Their intentions are evil:
This is gold, Good on you, Mate! don't let facts stand in the way of a good conspiracy theory

"that which is claimed without evidence shall be rejected without motivation" ~ science

 

[Intuthu Kagesi]

Hi zanderwyn
My apologies for my late reply ... I only noticed your post now ... My replies in red below;

I do not comment often; but this is absurd beyond a point where I can tolerate it. You are the reason people are confused about vaping!
Contrair ... my intention is far from fear mongering, it's informating, the antithesis of your accusation.

The point of the post is clear to me. you have done just enough research to be a dangerous source of information and to feel like you can get street cred for your efforts by posting ill-informed conspiracy kak on here with half-baked facts and untruths without considering the consequences of your rhetoric.
Please feel free to PM me, and I'll gladly introduce you to colleagues and students of mine who conducted the testing in question.

I will make this clear from the get go, I am only posting a reply to help those people understand how your post is wrong so that they can walk away and make the right decision for their health: "Drop the stinkies and start vaping!"
I fully support the dropping of stinkies, however I think you may be guilty of the very thing you're accusing me of ... confusing people in their choices with respect smoking cessation

You are fear mongering and making false claims in an effort to sound smart; but the Net effect is you are confusing new vapers who come to this forum to find out about vaping as a less harmful alternative and making it seem like it is bad idea. It is outright irresponsible.
As per comment above

History of Vaping:
Your claims are false.
What I posted was; "Juul took advantage of both the heightened reuptake and lessened throat hit sure, and they provided Nicotine Salts at some 10 to 12mg/ml concentration, (remembering that 2mg/ml of Salts is equal to 12mg/ml of Freebase on reuptake), and we know what happened to Juul once they were caught out for pushing levels five times higher than freebase and or the average full strength cigarette."
This is in the public domain ... Juul moved from Freebase to Nic Salts KNOWING full well that the reuptake was some 5 times higher, and in June 2022, the FDA said Juul had not provided adequate toxicology data for its products and ordered them off the market.

(Jull Labs inc. CA2909967A1)
18mg juices existed LONG before Juul and it was isolate and not salts.
Correct ... I never stated otherwise ... You did!

Juul is US based company not chinese.
Correct ... I never stated otherwise ... You did!
Nicotine salts was a positive improvement in vaping technology that closed that gap between tobacco and vaping by improving the nic absorption rate.
Before that vaping was limited to sub 18mg with extremely low levels of absorption; due to TH and absorption levels THIS WAS A BAD THING because people, generally speaking, who tried to switch from tobacco to vaping did not enjoy the TH of high nic juices and did no not feel like their cravings subsided due to the deceased absorption rates for free-base nic.
Correct ... I never stated otherwise ... What I did say is that by moving from a base to an acid, (salt), that the reuptake, (nic absorbtion), was "improved", however Juul saw fit to take advantage of the improved pH and maintain the levels at 10 to 12mg/ml, where they should have lowered them to some 2% ... they claimed ignorance, however the FDA proved otherwise.

Care to explain if this was an honest mistake or if you were just taking a chance to put erroneous info out there to give your statements some sort of false "credibility"?
Done!

Absorption rate:
Your claims are false
Are you off your rocker? ... You say my claims are false with respect ot absorbtion rate, yet you post the same thing above "Before that vaping was limited to sub 18mg with extremely low levels of absorption; due to TH and absorption levels" ... I am assuming TH is a typo for pH too?
You confirm my point below in your next point too; "It is well understood - both scientifically and in the vaping community that NS has a better absorption rate than isolate"

It is well understood - both scientifically and in the vaping community that NS has a better absorption rate than isolate - and that this was probably the most significant and positive development in vaping technology since it's advent. who would have know by mimicking how nicotine is found in its organic form would have such a big impact?

You are claiming they are intentionally deceiving us to believe we ingesting less nicotine than what we are. Yet Nic levels are clearly marked and the label tells you if it is free-base or NicSalts.
Not worth commenting on the obvious

Edited in: may I also add that the PH alone is not the key factor behind the increased absorption (that predominantly helped with the throat hit), Vapour Pressure, on the other hand, was the determining factor for increased increased absorption of the nicotine.
Incorrect ... I have posted details of scientific papers proving the reuptake on this forum in the past, and by your own admission above; "It is well understood - both scientifically and in the vaping community that NS has a better absorption rate than isolate"

Care to elaborate on how exactly this is a secret or conspiracy that they are hiding this from us to make us more addictive or were you bargaining on me just taking that claim at face value?
2. Juul "Caught Out":
Your claims are false
If I am indeed making false claims, then the FDA's ruling would be mute, however as it stands, it's fact, to which even a "Google" search will reveal confirmation.

Juul was never "Caught out" - they launched a high-nic product off the back of a patented technology - was it controversial? perhaps. Do I agree with that? No - and many many on here can attest that I was very vocal against the matter of high-nic products

(We manufactured vape juices and we developed our own Nicotine salt formulations - I personally oversaw the development of our nicsalts and I did IN-DEPTH research for MONTHS to understand everything about it - During testing high-nic products I experienced an increase in cravings and that, to me, was not a rabbit hole I wanted vaping to go down. ALAS.) "

Can you prove they were caught out and prosecuted or did you just add that for a little dramatic effect?
As above ... The FDA's assessments and ruling proves otherwise

Nic Levels:
Your claims are false

You claim Juul had a 18mg Nicsalt product? this is objectively false. they had 18mg freebase products and only increased it beyond that after the advent of nicotine salts. altough I would naturally assume people tried higher nic levels but found it un-vapable and we eventually settled on that as max of 18mg because people just weren't buying juices with a terrible taste and throat hit.
I didn't make that claim, You did .... what I said was that they had 10 and 12mg Freebase products, (according to the FDA reports), that were moved to 10 to 12mg of Nicotine Salts

Happy to take evidence that proves the contrary or were you a naughty boy and hoped we would just skim over that one too?
Naughty boy I am indeed, however not in this context

4. Mysterious flavours and sweeteners with long names:
Your claims are false
Once again ... YOUR claims, not mine

Flavours, sweeteners and additives are not used to mask the nicotive levels, they are use to make your vaping experience more pleasant than the cigarette ash in lukewarm water taste of combustibles thus making making vaping the most effective less-harmful smoking cessation tool the world has even seen.

MTL and pod devices require higher flavouring and sweeteners levels due to the difference in airflow when compared to DL. in MTL and Pod devices is is common that some flavour and sweetener levels are significanlty increased (typically between 120% & to 250%) for the taste to be as pronounced as they would be in a large airflow device.

New-age sweeteners that are "8000 gajillion" times sweeter are use to lower costs and improve coil lifespan due to the concentrations used (again I will reiterate that I am not familiar enough with these SPECIFIC sweeteners you mentioned to conclusively state that they are safe but I have read into it and they meet the basic criteria of being food-grade, GRAS and well as heat stable - if you need more evidence than that then you will be surprised to know that that is the criteria applied to all the other commonly used sweeteners including surclalose)

But seeing as you are the expert with these sweeteners and made the claim that there is something nefarious about their use, I welcome any reading material you can furnish me with to show that they are in fact as mysterious and dangerous as you claim? Or were you betting on the fact that we will just take your claim at face value?
I am no "expert" as you sarcastically infer, however I am a curious engineer, and as I have access to some clever people whose research I trust, decided to ask them how disposable manufacturers managed to achieve the levels of sweetness that they do, to which I posted the findings. Save to say that I was intrigued at the overall shift in pH too, KNOWING that it would decrease the "throat hit", hence the "side note" ... (original post reposted here for examination)

"Having recycled disposables for some months now, we decided to do some analysis of the vape juice remaining in them ... and ... the secret is out.

The majority tested contained l-α-aspartyl-N-(2,2,4,4-tetramethyl-3-thioethanyl)-d-alaninamide, (Alitame).
This is an temperature stable amino acid-based sweetener permitted for use in foods in South Africa, (albeit that it's banned in a few too), and is some 2000 times sweeter than sucralose , (which is already some 600 times sweeter than sugar) ... and now you know why disposables are as sweet as they are

The eliquid tested respective pH's were also acidic at between 4.5 and 6, (with fairly substantial traces of Sodium Chloride to boot), implying that their goals are indeed nefarious in my humble opinion, attempting to not only improve the reuptake of high %'s of nicotine, but to hide the "taste" of it.

Sidenote:
Due to the increased uptake of nicotine in Nicotine Salts the equivalent values would be 2mg/ml Nicotine Salts roughly equal to 12mg/ml Freebase Nicotine ...
Lowering the pH further would further improve the reuptake, (which is what disposable manufacturers are doing)."


6. Hiding Super-concentrates and flavourings:
I can't even.
Ditto , and ... ditto ... I can't

What even are you saying, mate? they are using SUPER concentrates made in some labs in Wuhan next to the Covid-19 factory in an illuminate lab for the purposes of enslaving you to the capitalist overlords? You give humans too much credit. I can't even deliver a market-sensitive 2 year project on time and in budget with dedicated 25 man squad without someone accidentally running their mouth to their grandma and our competitors somehow finding out.. If you want to see a super-concentrate then any DIY juice maker will tell you not look any further that FLV Cinnamon haha.
No comment on your admittal of an inability to deliver on projects

In closing;
My post; "Wits source chemicals from industrial and pharmaceutical suppliers. Samples for Alimame and Neotame were sourced from Pfizer and BOC Sciences respectfully. There are a number of manufacturers bringing it into SA, however I'm not sure that either is available in the retail market, save to say that it's a business opportunity for someone to import some raws in bulk, mix it up with Propylene Glycol and or compress it into tablet form for commercial consumption?", highlights my intentions ... What are yours?

 

[Munro31]

Hi zanderwyn
My apologies for my late reply ... I only noticed your post now ... My replies in red below;

I do not comment often; but this is absurd beyond a point where I can tolerate it. You are the reason people are confused about vaping!
Contrair ... my intention is far from fear mongering, it's informating, the antithesis of your accusation.

The point of the post is clear to me. you have done just enough research to be a dangerous source of information and to feel like you can get street cred for your efforts by posting ill-informed conspiracy kak on here with half-baked facts and untruths without considering the consequences of your rhetoric.
Please feel free to PM me, and I'll gladly introduce you to colleagues and students of mine who conducted the testing in question.

I will make this clear from the get go, I am only posting a reply to help those people understand how your post is wrong so that they can walk away and make the right decision for their health: "Drop the stinkies and start vaping!"
I fully support the dropping of stinkies, however I think you may be guilty of the very thing you're accusing me of ... confusing people in their choices with respect smoking cessation

You are fear mongering and making false claims in an effort to sound smart; but the Net effect is you are confusing new vapers who come to this forum to find out about vaping as a less harmful alternative and making it seem like it is bad idea. It is outright irresponsible.
As per comment above

History of Vaping:
Your claims are false.
What I posted was; "Juul took advantage of both the heightened reuptake and lessened throat hit sure, and they provided Nicotine Salts at some 10 to 12mg/ml concentration, (remembering that 2mg/ml of Salts is equal to 12mg/ml of Freebase on reuptake), and we know what happened to Juul once they were caught out for pushing levels five times higher than freebase and or the average full strength cigarette."
This is in the public domain ... Juul moved from Freebase to Nic Salts KNOWING full well that the reuptake was some 5 times higher, and in June 2022, the FDA said Juul had not provided adequate toxicology data for its products and ordered them off the market.

(Jull Labs inc. CA2909967A1)
18mg juices existed LONG before Juul and it was isolate and not salts.
Correct ... I never stated otherwise ... You did!

Juul is US based company not chinese.
Correct ... I never stated otherwise ... You did!
Nicotine salts was a positive improvement in vaping technology that closed that gap between tobacco and vaping by improving the nic absorption rate.
Before that vaping was limited to sub 18mg with extremely low levels of absorption; due to TH and absorption levels THIS WAS A BAD THING because people, generally speaking, who tried to switch from tobacco to vaping did not enjoy the TH of high nic juices and did no not feel like their cravings subsided due to the deceased absorption rates for free-base nic.
Correct ... I never stated otherwise ... What I did say is that by moving from a base to an acid, (salt), that the reuptake, (nic absorbtion), was "improved", however Juul saw fit to take advantage of the improved pH and maintain the levels at 10 to 12mg/ml, where they should have lowered them to some 2% ... they claimed ignorance, however the FDA proved otherwise.

Care to explain if this was an honest mistake or if you were just taking a chance to put erroneous info out there to give your statements some sort of false "credibility"?
Done!

Absorption rate:
Your claims are false
Are you off your rocker? ... You say my claims are false with respect ot absorbtion rate, yet you post the same thing above "Before that vaping was limited to sub 18mg with extremely low levels of absorption; due to TH and absorption levels" ... I am assuming TH is a typo for pH too?
You confirm my point below in your next point too; "It is well understood - both scientifically and in the vaping community that NS has a better absorption rate than isolate"

It is well understood - both scientifically and in the vaping community that NS has a better absorption rate than isolate - and that this was probably the most significant and positive development in vaping technology since it's advent. who would have know by mimicking how nicotine is found in its organic form would have such a big impact?

You are claiming they are intentionally deceiving us to believe we ingesting less nicotine than what we are. Yet Nic levels are clearly marked and the label tells you if it is free-base or NicSalts.
Not worth commenting on the obvious

Edited in: may I also add that the PH alone is not the key factor behind the increased absorption (that predominantly helped with the throat hit), Vapour Pressure, on the other hand, was the determining factor for increased increased absorption of the nicotine.
Incorrect ... I have posted details of scientific papers proving the reuptake on this forum in the past, and by your own admission above; "It is well understood - both scientifically and in the vaping community that NS has a better absorption rate than isolate"

Care to elaborate on how exactly this is a secret or conspiracy that they are hiding this from us to make us more addictive or were you bargaining on me just taking that claim at face value?
2. Juul "Caught Out":
Your claims are false
If I am indeed making false claims, then the FDA's ruling would be mute, however as it stands, it's fact, to which even a "Google" search will reveal confirmation.

Juul was never "Caught out" - they launched a high-nic product off the back of a patented technology - was it controversial? perhaps. Do I agree with that? No - and many many on here can attest that I was very vocal against the matter of high-nic products

(We manufactured vape juices and we developed our own Nicotine salt formulations - I personally oversaw the development of our nicsalts and I did IN-DEPTH research for MONTHS to understand everything about it - During testing high-nic products I experienced an increase in cravings and that, to me, was not a rabbit hole I wanted vaping to go down. ALAS.) "

Can you prove they were caught out and prosecuted or did you just add that for a little dramatic effect?
As above ... The FDA's assessments and ruling proves otherwise

Nic Levels:
Your claims are false

You claim Juul had a 18mg Nicsalt product? this is objectively false. they had 18mg freebase products and only increased it beyond that after the advent of nicotine salts. altough I would naturally assume people tried higher nic levels but found it un-vapable and we eventually settled on that as max of 18mg because people just weren't buying juices with a terrible taste and throat hit.
I didn't make that claim, You did .... what I said was that they had 10 and 12mg Freebase products, (according to the FDA reports), that were moved to 10 to 12mg of Nicotine Salts

Happy to take evidence that proves the contrary or were you a naughty boy and hoped we would just skim over that one too?
Naughty boy I am indeed, however not in this context

4. Mysterious flavours and sweeteners with long names:
Your claims are false
Once again ... YOUR claims, not mine

Flavours, sweeteners and additives are not used to mask the nicotive levels, they are use to make your vaping experience more pleasant than the cigarette ash in lukewarm water taste of combustibles thus making making vaping the most effective less-harmful smoking cessation tool the world has even seen.

MTL and pod devices require higher flavouring and sweeteners levels due to the difference in airflow when compared to DL. in MTL and Pod devices is is common that some flavour and sweetener levels are significanlty increased (typically between 120% & to 250%) for the taste to be as pronounced as they would be in a large airflow device.

New-age sweeteners that are "8000 gajillion" times sweeter are use to lower costs and improve coil lifespan due to the concentrations used (again I will reiterate that I am not familiar enough with these SPECIFIC sweeteners you mentioned to conclusively state that they are safe but I have read into it and they meet the basic criteria of being food-grade, GRAS and well as heat stable - if you need more evidence than that then you will be surprised to know that that is the criteria applied to all the other commonly used sweeteners including surclalose)

But seeing as you are the expert with these sweeteners and made the claim that there is something nefarious about their use, I welcome any reading material you can furnish me with to show that they are in fact as mysterious and dangerous as you claim? Or were you betting on the fact that we will just take your claim at face value?
I am no "expert" as you sarcastically infer, however I am a curious engineer, and as I have access to some clever people whose research I trust, decided to ask them how disposable manufacturers managed to achieve the levels of sweetness that they do, to which I posted the findings. Save to say that I was intrigued at the overall shift in pH too, KNOWING that it would decrease the "throat hit", hence the "side note" ... (original post reposted here for examination)

"Having recycled disposables for some months now, we decided to do some analysis of the vape juice remaining in them ... and ... the secret is out.

The majority tested contained l-α-aspartyl-N-(2,2,4,4-tetramethyl-3-thioethanyl)-d-alaninamide, (Alitame).
This is an temperature stable amino acid-based sweetener permitted for use in foods in South Africa, (albeit that it's banned in a few too), and is some 2000 times sweeter than sucralose , (which is already some 600 times sweeter than sugar) ... and now you know why disposables are as sweet as they are

The eliquid tested respective pH's were also acidic at between 4.5 and 6, (with fairly substantial traces of Sodium Chloride to boot), implying that their goals are indeed nefarious in my humble opinion, attempting to not only improve the reuptake of high %'s of nicotine, but to hide the "taste" of it.

Sidenote:
Due to the increased uptake of nicotine in Nicotine Salts the equivalent values would be 2mg/ml Nicotine Salts roughly equal to 12mg/ml Freebase Nicotine ...
Lowering the pH further would further improve the reuptake, (which is what disposable manufacturers are doing)."


6. Hiding Super-concentrates and flavourings:
I can't even.
Ditto , and ... ditto ... I can't

What even are you saying, mate? they are using SUPER concentrates made in some labs in Wuhan next to the Covid-19 factory in an illuminate lab for the purposes of enslaving you to the capitalist overlords? You give humans too much credit. I can't even deliver a market-sensitive 2 year project on time and in budget with dedicated 25 man squad without someone accidentally running their mouth to their grandma and our competitors somehow finding out.. If you want to see a super-concentrate then any DIY juice maker will tell you not look any further that FLV Cinnamon haha.
No comment on your admittal of an inability to deliver on projects

In closing;
My post; "Wits source chemicals from industrial and pharmaceutical suppliers. Samples for Alimame and Neotame were sourced from Pfizer and BOC Sciences respectfully. There are a number of manufacturers bringing it into SA, however I'm not sure that either is available in the retail market, save to say that it's a business opportunity for someone to import some raws in bulk, mix it up with Propylene Glycol and or compress it into tablet form for commercial consumption?", highlights my intentions ... What are yours?

Well said

 

[Resistance]

Hi zanderwyn
My apologies for my late reply ... I only noticed your post now ... My replies in red below;

I do not comment often; but this is absurd beyond a point where I can tolerate it. You are the reason people are confused about vaping!
Contrair ... my intention is far from fear mongering, it's informating, the antithesis of your accusation.

The point of the post is clear to me. you have done just enough research to be a dangerous source of information and to feel like you can get street cred for your efforts by posting ill-informed conspiracy kak on here with half-baked facts and untruths without considering the consequences of your rhetoric.
Please feel free to PM me, and I'll gladly introduce you to colleagues and students of mine who conducted the testing in question.

I will make this clear from the get go, I am only posting a reply to help those people understand how your post is wrong so that they can walk away and make the right decision for their health: "Drop the stinkies and start vaping!"
I fully support the dropping of stinkies, however I think you may be guilty of the very thing you're accusing me of ... confusing people in their choices with respect smoking cessation

You are fear mongering and making false claims in an effort to sound smart; but the Net effect is you are confusing new vapers who come to this forum to find out about vaping as a less harmful alternative and making it seem like it is bad idea. It is outright irresponsible.
As per comment above

History of Vaping:
Your claims are false.
What I posted was; "Juul took advantage of both the heightened reuptake and lessened throat hit sure, and they provided Nicotine Salts at some 10 to 12mg/ml concentration, (remembering that 2mg/ml of Salts is equal to 12mg/ml of Freebase on reuptake), and we know what happened to Juul once they were caught out for pushing levels five times higher than freebase and or the average full strength cigarette."
This is in the public domain ... Juul moved from Freebase to Nic Salts KNOWING full well that the reuptake was some 5 times higher, and in June 2022, the FDA said Juul had not provided adequate toxicology data for its products and ordered them off the market.

(Jull Labs inc. CA2909967A1)
18mg juices existed LONG before Juul and it was isolate and not salts.
Correct ... I never stated otherwise ... You did!

Juul is US based company not chinese.
Correct ... I never stated otherwise ... You did!
Nicotine salts was a positive improvement in vaping technology that closed that gap between tobacco and vaping by improving the nic absorption rate.
Before that vaping was limited to sub 18mg with extremely low levels of absorption; due to TH and absorption levels THIS WAS A BAD THING because people, generally speaking, who tried to switch from tobacco to vaping did not enjoy the TH of high nic juices and did no not feel like their cravings subsided due to the deceased absorption rates for free-base nic.
Correct ... I never stated otherwise ... What I did say is that by moving from a base to an acid, (salt), that the reuptake, (nic absorbtion), was "improved", however Juul saw fit to take advantage of the improved pH and maintain the levels at 10 to 12mg/ml, where they should have lowered them to some 2% ... they claimed ignorance, however the FDA proved otherwise.

Care to explain if this was an honest mistake or if you were just taking a chance to put erroneous info out there to give your statements some sort of false "credibility"?
Done!

Absorption rate:
Your claims are false
Are you off your rocker? ... You say my claims are false with respect ot absorbtion rate, yet you post the same thing above "Before that vaping was limited to sub 18mg with extremely low levels of absorption; due to TH and absorption levels" ... I am assuming TH is a typo for pH too?
You confirm my point below in your next point too; "It is well understood - both scientifically and in the vaping community that NS has a better absorption rate than isolate"

It is well understood - both scientifically and in the vaping community that NS has a better absorption rate than isolate - and that this was probably the most significant and positive development in vaping technology since it's advent. who would have know by mimicking how nicotine is found in its organic form would have such a big impact?

You are claiming they are intentionally deceiving us to believe we ingesting less nicotine than what we are. Yet Nic levels are clearly marked and the label tells you if it is free-base or NicSalts.
Not worth commenting on the obvious

Edited in: may I also add that the PH alone is not the key factor behind the increased absorption (that predominantly helped with the throat hit), Vapour Pressure, on the other hand, was the determining factor for increased increased absorption of the nicotine.
Incorrect ... I have posted details of scientific papers proving the reuptake on this forum in the past, and by your own admission above; "It is well understood - both scientifically and in the vaping community that NS has a better absorption rate than isolate"

Care to elaborate on how exactly this is a secret or conspiracy that they are hiding this from us to make us more addictive or were you bargaining on me just taking that claim at face value?
2. Juul "Caught Out":
Your claims are false
If I am indeed making false claims, then the FDA's ruling would be mute, however as it stands, it's fact, to which even a "Google" search will reveal confirmation.

Juul was never "Caught out" - they launched a high-nic product off the back of a patented technology - was it controversial? perhaps. Do I agree with that? No - and many many on here can attest that I was very vocal against the matter of high-nic products

(We manufactured vape juices and we developed our own Nicotine salt formulations - I personally oversaw the development of our nicsalts and I did IN-DEPTH research for MONTHS to understand everything about it - During testing high-nic products I experienced an increase in cravings and that, to me, was not a rabbit hole I wanted vaping to go down. ALAS.) "

Can you prove they were caught out and prosecuted or did you just add that for a little dramatic effect?
As above ... The FDA's assessments and ruling proves otherwise

Nic Levels:
Your claims are false

You claim Juul had a 18mg Nicsalt product? this is objectively false. they had 18mg freebase products and only increased it beyond that after the advent of nicotine salts. altough I would naturally assume people tried higher nic levels but found it un-vapable and we eventually settled on that as max of 18mg because people just weren't buying juices with a terrible taste and throat hit.
I didn't make that claim, You did .... what I said was that they had 10 and 12mg Freebase products, (according to the FDA reports), that were moved to 10 to 12mg of Nicotine Salts

Happy to take evidence that proves the contrary or were you a naughty boy and hoped we would just skim over that one too?
Naughty boy I am indeed, however not in this context

4. Mysterious flavours and sweeteners with long names:
Your claims are false
Once again ... YOUR claims, not mine

Flavours, sweeteners and additives are not used to mask the nicotive levels, they are use to make your vaping experience more pleasant than the cigarette ash in lukewarm water taste of combustibles thus making making vaping the most effective less-harmful smoking cessation tool the world has even seen.

MTL and pod devices require higher flavouring and sweeteners levels due to the difference in airflow when compared to DL. in MTL and Pod devices is is common that some flavour and sweetener levels are significanlty increased (typically between 120% & to 250%) for the taste to be as pronounced as they would be in a large airflow device.

New-age sweeteners that are "8000 gajillion" times sweeter are use to lower costs and improve coil lifespan due to the concentrations used (again I will reiterate that I am not familiar enough with these SPECIFIC sweeteners you mentioned to conclusively state that they are safe but I have read into it and they meet the basic criteria of being food-grade, GRAS and well as heat stable - if you need more evidence than that then you will be surprised to know that that is the criteria applied to all the other commonly used sweeteners including surclalose)

But seeing as you are the expert with these sweeteners and made the claim that there is something nefarious about their use, I welcome any reading material you can furnish me with to show that they are in fact as mysterious and dangerous as you claim? Or were you betting on the fact that we will just take your claim at face value?
I am no "expert" as you sarcastically infer, however I am a curious engineer, and as I have access to some clever people whose research I trust, decided to ask them how disposable manufacturers managed to achieve the levels of sweetness that they do, to which I posted the findings. Save to say that I was intrigued at the overall shift in pH too, KNOWING that it would decrease the "throat hit", hence the "side note" ... (original post reposted here for examination)

"Having recycled disposables for some months now, we decided to do some analysis of the vape juice remaining in them ... and ... the secret is out.

The majority tested contained l-α-aspartyl-N-(2,2,4,4-tetramethyl-3-thioethanyl)-d-alaninamide, (Alitame).
This is an temperature stable amino acid-based sweetener permitted for use in foods in South Africa, (albeit that it's banned in a few too), and is some 2000 times sweeter than sucralose , (which is already some 600 times sweeter than sugar) ... and now you know why disposables are as sweet as they are

The eliquid tested respective pH's were also acidic at between 4.5 and 6, (with fairly substantial traces of Sodium Chloride to boot), implying that their goals are indeed nefarious in my humble opinion, attempting to not only improve the reuptake of high %'s of nicotine, but to hide the "taste" of it.

Sidenote:
Due to the increased uptake of nicotine in Nicotine Salts the equivalent values would be 2mg/ml Nicotine Salts roughly equal to 12mg/ml Freebase Nicotine ...
Lowering the pH further would further improve the reuptake, (which is what disposable manufacturers are doing)."


6. Hiding Super-concentrates and flavourings:
I can't even.
Ditto , and ... ditto ... I can't

What even are you saying, mate? they are using SUPER concentrates made in some labs in Wuhan next to the Covid-19 factory in an illuminate lab for the purposes of enslaving you to the capitalist overlords? You give humans too much credit. I can't even deliver a market-sensitive 2 year project on time and in budget with dedicated 25 man squad without someone accidentally running their mouth to their grandma and our competitors somehow finding out.. If you want to see a super-concentrate then any DIY juice maker will tell you not look any further that FLV Cinnamon haha.
No comment on your admittal of an inability to deliver on projects

In closing;
My post; "Wits source chemicals from industrial and pharmaceutical suppliers. Samples for Alimame and Neotame were sourced from Pfizer and BOC Sciences respectfully. There are a number of manufacturers bringing it into SA, however I'm not sure that either is available in the retail market, save to say that it's a business opportunity for someone to import some raws in bulk, mix it up with Propylene Glycol and or compress it into tablet form for commercial consumption?", highlights my intentions ... What are yours?

Keep on doing what you're doing, some of us are still inspired by you're work.