This needs to be said!

[stevie g]

Honestly this is all semantics. People are in the industry to make money and if others buy their juices more power to them. I think a guy sitting in his bedroom mixing a couple of mls of juice for himself has no actual idea how time consuming it is to churn out 1000 bottles of juice a month.

I wholesale to another vendor and they use their own labelling I just make the eliquid and bottle it. Making 24 litres of juice with 40 variants is not the same as making 50ml diy.

 

[oldtimerZA]

Adapt your business model or stop selling juice.
What happened in Software when companies were fighting off piracy?
They either :
1) Made it very difficult to copy their software with DRM, etc.
2) Made a new business model that made the software free to use with added extras costing you.(most notably LoL and DotA2).

So instead of whining that your "precious " flavour got copied again.
Either:
1) make your flavour uncopyable(probably impossible).
2) Make a new business model that doesn't care if your flavour gets copied.

Proposed solution:
Set up a service where you allow custom flavour mixings so a person pops online and makes an order for 30ml bottles with a mix of Banana, Peanut Butter and Fresh Cream.
you then whip it together(from premade single flavour, steeped juices) and send it out.

Then offer your "Recommended" mixtures on the site, these can be your "Signature" flavours.
So then what if someone copies a signature flavour of yours? ... It has no effect, because you're no longer caring about your signature flavours.
Your business model is "Signature flavour agnostic", if you have them or not you'll still sell juice.
The only thing that affects you again is your competitive market price.

 

[Cespian]

Honestly this is all semantics. People are in the industry to make money and if others buy their juices more power to them. I think a guy sitting in his bedroom mixing a couple of mls of juice for himself has no actual idea how time consuming it is to churn out 1000 bottles of juice a month.

I wholesale to another vendor and they use their own labelling I just make the eliquid and bottle it. Making 24 litres of juice with 40 variants is not the same as making 50ml diy.

With all due respects sir, this discussion was aimed at selling clones and the ethics of charging a benchmarked fee for little to no RnD. I do understand where you are coming from regarding quantities, however (not aimed at you though) just because a vender needs to manufacture litres of juice a day, does not warrant selling clones

 

[Ezekiel]

I do agree with the Strawberry flavours (we do have ourselves but we started a year ago when there were not many on the local market) and we dropped Fruloops for the very reason that the market was flooded with them - again we were one of the first in the country to bring out this flavour but we didn't want to be another fruit loop juice maker.

Ironically, yours' were the very first strawberry and cream juice I ever tasted, and still hits the spot I have in my mind when I think about that kind of juice. Conesequently, I will never buy any other strawberry & cream juice, but I've re-ordered Strawb before.

I think the same will happen with most people - they might buy a clone of a popular juice early in their vape journey, and will probably stick with that brand for a long time, despite many other slight variations on the same juice from different lines. In this way, I guess it warrants to have a decent popular juice in your line. However, most people will probably still buy a unique and original juice from a different line for the pure sake that they can't get it anywhere else.

I guess not all juice makers share this perspective. For some people it is really just about the money.

Aw but @Mike, this is probably why your juice line will keep on selling and gaining momentum long after only-clone lines have perished.

Any mixologist who keeps pushing the market and releasing creative new juices (because they enjoy it, rather than aiming for profit alone) will

a) get everyone, including vendors, talking, thereby attracting new customers
b) get new customers to try your juice line because they can't get a particular juice anywhere else

Once you have a customer who have tried one of your juices and was impressed, I assume they will be more likely to try your other juices as well - whether these are clones or not.

Which means, in a slightly flooded market, you are more likely to attract customers to your entire range through unique juices.

And therefore, as @Andre said, the market should sort itself out.

 

[stevie g]

With all due respects sir, this discussion was aimed at selling clones and the ethics of charging a benchmarked fee for little to no RnD. I do understand where you are coming from regarding quantities, however (not aimed at you though) just because a vender needs to manufacture litres of juice a day, does not warrant selling clones

i hear you and agree somewhat, i just wanted to chime in on the cost of eliquid.

 

[oldtimerZA]

While we're at it .
Juice makers are going to have a rude awakening when someone else comes along and offers juices at a far lower price.
There's no such thing as a "Benchmarked" price in a free market.

The reason you're losing money to the copiers is because the consumer doesn't give two shits whether you make ends meet.
All the consumer cares about is "I can get the exact tasting juice for half the price".

So become more competitive.
- What can you offer the consumer that the copier can't?
- A subscription service that gives your tasters new flavours monthly ?
- A rewards program with a big enough incentive to stay loyal?

It's not optimistic, it's business.
This is the way business has run and will always run.

If a chinese factory is willing to create RDA clones for a fraction of the cost of authentic, then the creator of the authentic needs to up his game.
In a market without patents(like those of juice and RDAs etc) it quickly becomes about who can offer the same product of comparable quality for a much reduced price.

 

[NewOobY]

sadly I disagree with your statement about "Bench-marked" prices take a look at the market around you, things you use daily e.g. bread, sugar, petrol, rent, cars all have some level of bench-marking. Yes we are fooled into believing you can charge whatever you want, but when you go and see what others are charging for similar - your money eye's come in an say kk I'll go with the flow. Or as a consumer kk now I need to look at other things that attract me to one vendor over another given that price is similar if not the same.

But I agree with the rest of what you said

 

[stevie g]

It isn't the price that determines if a juice maker is successful or not it is his access to market. One guy running a website is going to make a fraction of the sales that the guy being stocked in kiosks and retail outlets will.

 

[oldtimerZA]

sadly I disagree with your statement about "Bench-marked" prices take a look at the market around you, things you use daily e.g. bread, sugar, petrol, rent, cars all have some level of bench-marking. Yes we are fooled into believing you can charge whatever you want, but when you go and see what others are charging for similar - your money eye's come in an say kk I'll go with the flow. Or as a consumer kk now I need to look at other things that attract me to one vendor over another given that price is similar if not the same.

But I agree with the rest of what you said

That's simply not true.
bread,sugar, petrol , rent, cars are only at a similar price because that's the lowest they can go and still make a profit. Should we get a surplus of bread tomorrow, then the market will react . Bread will go on special, prices will drop. You won't see PnP keeping their prices high while everyone else sells low. They'll lose money. The only reason those goods are at a "constant" price is because supply has met demand at that price point , should supply increase then price will drop.

What's happening in the Vape juice market in RSA is that everyone who is making has kind of agreed on a "R150/30ml" price point, and as soon as someone comes a long and says " actually I'm selling the same thing for less" then people start whining instead of adapting. This is price fixing.
There is an over supply for the demand.Someone else drops their price because of it and makes a profit. Those who don't follow suite will lose business.

Unfortunately it's incredibly easy to copy ejuice and ejuice can't be patented. Luckily its a consumable so the market can stagnate and still turn a profit( see hubbly flavours for example).

So change your business model.
People seem to be content with the current arrangement of flavours. So drop the RnD , pick a good range of sellable flavours and produce just those flavours at a lower price point.

 

[NewOobY]

lol you win, price fixing is real and happens everywhere with everyday products no matter what the reason or cause of said price fixing. This in my mind is price benchmarking, the cause does not matter in this case the outcome does, and the outcome is price fixing, thereby setting a benchmark for others to follow if they want to survive in the market.

A vendor will not choose to make less money, a vendor will always try and maximize profits.
Look I still agree with the sentiments of this topic, #JuicePricesMustFall lets start a movement.

 

[NewOobY]

as @Sprint stated, when a vendor makes tons of juices - this take a huge amount of time. If there rate per hour is anywhere near the rate my company charges me out at to our clients then goodness juice is gonna be expensive. Remember yes it costs me R60 to make 30ml again numbers not real, the time it took me 30min @R1200 p/h that equates to R660 for 30ml juice. Even using my mechanics rate would transalte to R260 for 30mls. So I still think juice in SA is cheap.

 

[oldtimerZA]

as @Sprint stated, when a vendor makes tons of juices - this take a huge amount of time. If there rate per hour is anywhere near the rate my company charges me out at to our clients then goodness juice is gonna be expensive. Remember yes it costs me R60 to make 30ml again numbers not real, the time it took me 30min @R1200 p/h that equates to R660 for 30ml juice. Even using my mechanics rate would transalte to R260 for 30mls. So I still think juice in SA is cheap.

That's fine and dandy. But then no one can complain when someone else is willing to make juice for less per hour. If it's taking that long to make juice , then maybe something needs to change in the process used to make the juice.

I mean goodness, it's literally stirring like 10 ingredients together , putting it into a bottle ,waiting 2 weeks and then selling it.
We're not talking whiskey here, we're talking PG, VG, nic and a few food flavours.

If you're loading bottle by hand , then don't complain if someone else is willing to do the same for less...or has found a way to bottle juices for less(automated ).

Work smart not hard.

 

[method1]

It's not always about the lowest price. Look at Apple.
Their innovations have also spawned legions of half-baked imitators.
Cheapest products? No - probably some of the priciest.
And yet one of the most successful and loved brands in the world (and of course also hated by many)

 

[NewOobY]

Perfect example of cheap labor China. nuff said


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rogue zombie]

I don't buy unoriginal juice - I only buy a select few local gems. Uniquely developed juices.

And the best recipes in my recipe book are not my own.

I'm a "live and let live" sort of person. But would I sell other people's recipes - no.

I even hate it when I make a meal, and everyone's like "wow.. so good.".... and i used a packet sauce :/



Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Cespian]

as @Sprint stated, when a vendor makes tons of juices - this take a huge amount of time. If there rate per hour is anywhere near the rate my company charges me out at to our clients then goodness juice is gonna be expensive. Remember yes it costs me R60 to make 30ml again numbers not real, the time it took me 30min @R1200 p/h that equates to R660 for 30ml juice. Even using my mechanics rate would transalte to R260 for 30mls. So I still think juice in SA is cheap.

If I may take a different approach to your match:

I highly doubt a big vender would be manufacturing a juice in 30ml bottles and 30 minutes is a little steep unless arthritus or parkinsons or something is in the equation. Lets rather work on batches of 900mls (would result in 30 30ml bottles), and lets say max time to mix from a set recipe is 20 minutes (I believe this is over stated though):

Figures are fictional (I made it up)
----------------------------------
Hourly rate: R1000
Cost of ingredients: R80
Consumables (disposable syringes, gloves, paper towels etc.): R5
Bottle: R10

Cost per 30ml: ((1000 * 0.33) / 30) + 80 + 10 = R101

 

[Cespian]

It's not always about the lowest price. Look at Apple.
Their innovations have also spawned legions of half-baked imitators.
Cheapest products? No - probably some of the priciest.
And yet one of the most successful and loved brands in the world (and of course also hated by many)

EXACTLY. You just hit the nail on the head sir. I don't mind spending that premium cost for a juice that is innovative and unique!

(Although I dont believe that Apple is innovated though )

 

[oldtimerZA]

It's not always about the lowest price. Look at Apple.
Their innovations have also spawned legions of half-baked imitators.
Cheapest products? No - probably some of the priciest.
And yet one of the most successful and loved brands in the world (and of course also hated by many)

I agree.But:
1)Their products aren't a consumable.
2) They have patents.
3) They have a unique design that works and can't easily be copied.(also because of the nature of the product , requiring highly specialised equipment to manufacture.)

Everything ejuice doesn't have.

quick summary of ejuice market:
- it's dirt cheap to make.
- anyone can make it at home.
- no patents.

So why complain when someone else copies your e-juice flavour?

I don't see sasko bitching because albany makes bread as well using similar recipes.

 

[oldtimerZA]

If I may take a different approach to your match:

I highly doubt a big vender would be manufacturing a juice in 30ml bottles and 30 minutes is a little steep unless arthritus or parkinsons or something is in the equation. Lets rather work on batches of 900mls (would result in 30 30ml bottles), and lets say max time to mix from a set recipe is 20 minutes (I believe this is over stated though):

Figures are fictional (I made it up)
----------------------------------
Hourly rate: R1000
Cost of ingredients: R80
Consumables (disposable syringes, gloves, paper towels etc.): R5
Bottle: R10

Cost per 30ml: ((1000 * 0.33) / 30) + 80 + 10 = R101

Hourly rate of R1000???? Jesus I'm a qualified software engineer and I don't make that in a day of work. let alone an hour. This is where greed and price fixing comes in.

 

[Cespian]

Hourly rate of R1000???? Jesus I'm a qualified software engineer and I don't make that in a day of work. let alone an hour. This is where greed and price fixing comes in.

I specifically said fictional figures...

 

[NewOobY]

Hourly rate of R1000???? Jesus I'm a qualified software engineer and I don't make that in a day of work. let alone an hour. This is where greed and price fixing comes in.

dude some consultants I work with daily have an hourly rate of R1200 per hour, no jokes we use them and make no profit cause that is our rate to the client. It must be said though that they are the best at what they do, hence the reason we use them - we make profit with our juniors though we pay em peanuts and bill the client R1200p/h - SAP project managers make this much too.

To add I know that some exec's charge R10 000 per hour. Imagine if this exec makes juice the juice will be beyond expensive if we use his hourly rate

 

[method1]

I agree.But:
1)Their products aren't a consumable.
2) They have patents.
3) They have a unique design that works and can't easily be copied.(also because of the nature of the product , requiring highly specialised equipment to manufacture.)

Everything ejuice doesn't have.

quick summary of ejuice market:
- it's dirt cheap to make.
- anyone can make it at home.
- no patents.

So why complain when someone else copies your e-juice flavour?

I don't see sasko bitching because albany makes bread as well using similar recipes.

I think we're talking about different things - but sure, anyone can join the race to the bottom with cheaply made, derivative products, and there will still be a market for it.

You can get Absolut or Russian Bear based on your preference of taste and cost per ml to get sloshed

 

[oldtimerZA]

I specifically said fictional figures...

yeah and even with those fictional figures you came to a lower number than the actual price of ejuice.

R50 - R100 per hour seems more like it. say you make 1L an hour(if not more , this is easily achievable).
and it costs R15 for the ingredients.(including bottle and label) per bottle then it's costing:

R100 per hour for 1L.
1L makes 33 bottles @ 30ml per bottle.
so labor costs R1.5 per bottle.
R15 + R1.5 per bottle 30ml.

Add shipping of about R1-2 per bottle (if not less) and we get:

R17.5 per bottle to make.
Add a profit margin of double:
R35 per bottle.
Add store mark up of double:
R70 bottle of 30ml.

Half the current cost( and thats with grossly exaggerated estimates, it's probably faaarr less).

 

[Cespian]

yeah and even with those fictional figures you came to a lower number than the actual price of ejuice.

R50 - R100 per hour seems more like it. say you make 1L an hour(if not more , this is easily achievable).
and it costs R15 for the ingredients.(including bottle and label) per bottle then it's costing:

R100 per hour for 1L.
1L makes 33 bottles @ 30ml per bottle.
so labor costs R1.5 per bottle.
R15 + R1.5 per bottle 30ml.

Add shipping of about R1-2 per bottle (if not less) and we get:

R17.5 per bottle to make.
Add a profit margin of double:
R35 per bottle.
Add store mark up of double:
R70 bottle of 30ml.

Half the current cost( and thats with grossly exaggerated estimates, it's probably faaarr less).

Dude, I did not create this thread to question nor discuss the cost to make e-juice nor will I comment on the time and effort it takes to mass produce e-juice. There exists a benchmarked price and I am unhappy about these fly-by-night juice makers selling clones at the same rate as our venders who are truly making spectular innovative juice after putting in a whole lot of effort to develop it, and flooding the market.

 

[NewOobY]

i was also gonna say sorry for side tracking the thread