This needs to be said!

[Ezekiel]

My existing line is in partnership with Wayne, therefore not a clone, it's the OG real deal.
A clone would be using one of those recipes, changing something a little (or not) and then claiming originality as the cherry on top
That's the issue the OP brought up.

My apologies @method1, I then misunderstood the original wording when you announced Smackaroon! Sorry about that! Regardless, the fact that you are open that you collaborated is what I applaud. I'm just as sick and tired of juice-lines claiming originality when there is practically none!

 

[NewOobY]

now speaking of clones any good peaches and cream/custard clones I can try -> Just kidding. Got my new batch of DIY concentrates that came today happiness, sadness still waiting for my Peanut Butter though

 

[Gazzacpt]

Ok I've just read through this thread and feel I should weigh in but so much has been covered.
Lets start with clone juice. Most of the recipes on line are not exact clones but someone liked the original enough to try and get a similar taste without paying stupid money and are happy with the taste they created. Eg. 5p Gambit, its apple pie but since 5p made it famous people say hey taste my gambit clone, which is their variation on a apple pie recipe. Without knowing the original ingredients or mixing method its very hard to actually clone. The closest you going to get is something similar. This is not cloning in my book.
Next strawberry milkshake is a very popular flavour. If you as a juice maker do not have a strawberry something in your line up you missing a large chunk of your market. Now how many variations of strawberry milk can you really have. Again not cloning in my book.
If you are a juice maker and just mix up a recipe you found on the net and sell it as your own its a bit dishonest but tweak it a bit and alter to taste for your market is that cloning?

On the cost issue that was raised. I know some of these manufacturers had to make a heavy investment to get ingredients in. High quality VG, PG and nic. Some labs only deal in wholesale quantity and nic needs importing. Try getting quality nic into the country by the litre of 100mg/ml legally. Flavour bottles by the litre. Mass mixing equipment and facilities. If you serious about a juice line setting up is a massive outlay. So R120 - 160 per 30ml bottle is quite a reasonable price. If you want cheaper juice then diy. I've gone that route and its alot of work and hit and miss. While learning my cost per 30ml was sometimes R200 because of mistakes and unvapable mixes.
The manufacturer carries risk so needs to charge for it plain and simple.

Anywhoo my 2c.

 

[rogue zombie]

@Gazzacpt you make loads of valid points, to which I agree.

But as you touched on - I would just elaborate a bit

I think from the juice makers that sell their stuff, it's particularly annoying that they spend time, effort and money developing flavours. Whereas some just grab a recipe found online and call it their own.

I've noticed with internet famous folk that come up with great recipes, for example. At the end of the day all they actually want is recognition. That it's THEIR recipe.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[WARMACHINE]

With this industry been relatively young it is the Wild West. No regulation, no standards...there is really nothing, other than forums and the interweb. It is a catch 22 situation. Soon as regulation (and the following taxes) are introduced cloners may struggle to keep up with the increased costs and PT to produce and distribute product, and the end product for us consumers will be more expensive.

Regulation can be good, look at the food industry. I want ingredient lists on a product, I want standards certification, and I am prepared to pay the extra costs for my health and piece of mind.

I regularly travel to China, and cloning is normal business practice. the Chinese will copy anything, even other Chinese products/manufacturers. Innovation is not really encouraged, but rather mass production. The only companies I have come across that are different tend to supply product to the US and particular Europe, in regulated industries where standards are enforced. When this happens, it is amazing. The product is high quality, reasonable cost and starts showing innovation. Once again regulation and standards have made a difference.

Cloning international juices and claiming the copy as your own creation, not sure how you could ever regulate that. This happens in other food based industries, even the alcohol industry.

We need to self-regulate as a community, and frown upon cloning recipes.

@Cespian is there any reason these vendors are not been mentioned ?

 

[rogue zombie]

@WARMACHINE as far as I can understand it, recipes could never be regulated.

Unless they were copyrighted or something.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Cespian]

@Gazzacpt I understand what you are saying and I agree with you to an extent. I think my rant might have been unclear. What I was ranting about are the fly by night guys using recipes found on the web, using it as is and selling it. Yes, making something similar to an existing flavour makes absolute sense because of popularity and greater possibility of sales (my lemon creams as an example that Rob likes so much is based on Looper however different because I created my own recipe. I have made original looper clones as well and I can taste the difference).

@WARMACHINE I will never name and shame anybody, especially on a public forum because it is unethical. What these "venders" are doing is not wrong, I am just of the OPINION that its THEFT taking a recipe from someone who just wanted to share a recipe, and rape an opportunity, where there are true mixologists putting in crap loads of effort making innovative juices or juices similar to existing ones and charging the same price as the thieves. (Apologies if I sound like an extremist)

 

[Duffie12]

For what it's worth here's my 2c, not everyone can or is willing or has the time to DIY properly. So while there are only so many ways one can personalise "strawberries and cream" or heck even just plain "strawberry" there is a market and a need for it.

Obviously if one claims a recipe is their own creation (and it is isn't) then they're lying, but by the same token no one claims that their local pizza place is a sham because they too also sell ham and mushrooms Regina pizzas.

 

[Christos]

Guys, I'm all for making money but if I ever get my shit together and market a good recipe I guarantee I'll drop the recipe here. I totally believe 90% of the market will buy it instead is diy'ING it.
Just saying.

 

[kyle_redbull]

Why can't we name and shame these vendors and their products we do it with other products we purchase on a daily basis if they not up to standard this way we expose the weeds and maybe that way things will change

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

 

[whatalotigot]

I agree with this. But unfortunately the flavor profiles that are said 'cloned' are popular. Looper , strawberry ice cream etc.

Again it's up to a store or vendor to not stock straight out 'CLONED' juices straight from the net. Just out of respect to the creators of the juice, and the risk factor. As for these guys selling from cars. I think it's a risk of the buyer to buy this sort of thing rather then buying a reputable juice brand.

It's a sticky situation, You really will never know how that juice was mixed. I just don't want anyone getting hurt or something going wrong because of some youngster mixing and cross contaminating. I agree, there needs to be some regulation when it comes to this.

Just remember that most, if not ALL juice companies started by mixing juice at home and building from there responsibly. This freedom is the reason SA vaping has grown to where it is now. That's just my 2cents

 

[rogue zombie]

I agree with this. But unfortunately the flavor profiles that are said 'cloned' are popular. Looper , strawberry ice cream etc.

Again it's up to a store or vendor to not stock straight out 'CLONED' juices straight from the net. Just out of respect to the creators of the juice, and the risk factor. As for these guys selling from cars. I think it's a risk of the buyer to buy this sort of thing rather then buying a reputable juice brand.

It's a sticky situation, You really will never know how that juice was mixed. I just don't want anyone getting hurt or something going wrong because of some youngster mixing and cross contaminating. I agree, there needs to be some regulation when it comes to this.

Just remember that most, if not ALL juice companies started by mixing juice at home and building from there responsibly. This freedom is the reason SA vaping has grown to where it is now. That's just my 2cents

Ya it's a big grey area.

I mean technically I could follow a recipe I found online, that was not intended for commercial use, add a drop of lime and 2 of a different strawberry... and call it my own.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[whatalotigot]

Ya it's a big grey area.

I mean technically I could follow a recipe I found online, that was not intended for commercial use, add a drop of lime and 2 of a different strawberry... and call it my own.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

This is true and there isnt really a problem tweaking recipes. Its more about how the juice is made. And in what enviroment that is more the issue. Made in a lab or made in the kitchen. Thats the difference.

I do want to start checking out certain juice makers "mixing" areas, just to know what kind of health risks they might face. And i think thats a responsibility all vendors or suppliers should start taking into their own hands!


Sent from Foggas using Tapatalk

 

[Raithlin]

This is true and there isnt really a problem tweaking recipes. Its more about how the juice is made. And in what enviroment that is more the issue. Made in a lab or made in the kitchen. Thats the difference.

I do want to start checking out certain juice makers "mixing" areas, just to know what kind of health risks they might face. And i think thats a responsibility all vendors or suppliers should start taking into their own hands!


Sent from Foggas using Tapatalk

Valid points all. I have personally seen the mixing areas of all the juice brands we stock.. but not everyone has that luxury. Some vendors are across the world, if not the country.

 

[stevie g]

This is true and there isnt really a problem tweaking recipes. Its more about how the juice is made. And in what enviroment that is more the issue. Made in a lab or made in the kitchen. Thats the difference.

I do want to start checking out certain juice makers "mixing" areas, just to know what kind of health risks they might face. And i think thats a responsibility all vendors or suppliers should start taking into their own hands!


Sent from Foggas using Tapatalk

I work for a large flavor company and their "labs" are like kitchens.

A room setup to be a dedicated "mixing kitchen" that is vacuumed or otherwise cleaned daily is the equivalent.

I would he horrified to hear of someone mixing in a garage unless it was Ironman's garage .


I've worked in a pie factory and they are NOT cleaner than a mixing room but we don't vaporise pies so there is always that to be thankful for.