To Clone or not to Clone.

[Silver]

How would people feel about cheap rewrapped counterfeit batteries if they were as close to the performance of the original as the SXK is to the Kayfun5 in Geekay's review? If I had the choice of buying an original LG choc (15A 3000mAh 300 recharge cycles) for R180, or a counterfeit LG choc (14.8A 2950mAh 280 recharge cycles) for R60, which would I buy? My answer will make me blush so I plead the Fifth. It wouldn't be fair on the original battery developers like LG, Sony and Samsung. But will people care?

Of course, it's an incomplete analogy because most of the cost in batteries goes towards manufacturing, a very small % is for R&D. Original atty manufacturers will claim quite large R&D costs, which inflates the retail cost. The difference in price between a Kayfun5 and an SXK is certainly not warranted by any difference in materials or manufacturing costs.

It's a tough issue that extends into many other sectors. if GlaxoSmithKline develop a cancer treatment for R250k, with a huge chunk of that being R&D costs to develop the drug, should other companies be forbidden from developing generics that are much cheaper? On the one hand, companies that do essential R&D must be compensated for it. On the other, we don't want medicines or pharmaceutical products to be the preserve of the wealthy.

One might claim that vaping isn't quite as directly essential as medicines. But if we take the view that vaping is a miracle technology that can save a billion lives, is there not an imperative to make it as affordable as possible? And thence the same justification to allow clone atties as there is to allow clone "generics" in medicine? I don't have the answers to that. Just putting it out there for folks to consider.

Hi @RichJB - i do agree that affordable vape gear is very important to make vaping more accessible

Its just that when cloners clone something including the logo on it and sell it just like that then for me that is just wrong.

Another comment - I am no pharma expert but I thought generic alternatives become available only after patent protections on the OEM expire?

 

[Effjh]

How would people feel about cheap rewrapped counterfeit batteries if they were as close to the performance of the original as the SXK is to the Kayfun5 in Geekay's review? If I had the choice of buying an original LG choc (15A 3000mAh 300 recharge cycles) for R180, or a counterfeit LG choc (14.8A 2950mAh 280 recharge cycles) for R60, which would I buy? My answer will make me blush so I plead the Fifth. It wouldn't be fair on the original battery developers like LG, Sony and Samsung. But will people care?

Of course, it's an incomplete analogy because most of the cost in batteries goes towards manufacturing, a very small % is for R&D. Original atty manufacturers will claim quite large R&D costs, which inflates the retail cost. The difference in price between a Kayfun5 and an SXK is certainly not warranted by any difference in materials or manufacturing costs.

It's a tough issue that extends into many other sectors. if GlaxoSmithKline develop a cancer treatment for R250k, with a huge chunk of that being R&D costs to develop the drug, should other companies be forbidden from developing generics that are much cheaper? On the one hand, companies that do essential R&D must be compensated for it. On the other, we don't want medicines or pharmaceutical products to be the preserve of the wealthy.

One might claim that vaping isn't quite as directly essential as medicines. But if we take the view that vaping is a miracle technology that can save a billion lives, is there not an imperative to make it as affordable as possible? And thence the same justification to allow clone atties as there is to allow clone "generics" in medicine? I don't have the answers to that. Just putting it out there for folks to consider.

Very thought provoking ideas there @RichJB. At the end of the day, as ex smokers we all vape to stay of the stinkies.. and if a clone affords you the ability to stay smoke free/healthier.. I guess making the comparison between clones and generic medicine could be somewhat valid.

 

[Silver]

Hi @RichJB - i do agree that affordable vape gear is very important to make vaping more accessible

Its just that when cloners clone something including the logo on it and sell it just like that then for me that is just wrong.

Another comment - I am no pharma expert but I thought generic alternatives become available only after patent protections on the OEM expire?

And just another comment as a follow on from the last sentence in my above quoted post

Consider what would happen if there were no patent protections granted to the pharma companies

Do you think the generic producers would be advancing the technological innovations in medicine like we have seen in the past?

I very much doubt it

 

[RichJB]

@Silver, I can't answer the generics patent question as I have little insight in this field, I just know that ethically it's a debate in the pharma industry. You make a valid point about what would happen if there was no R&D in medicine and everybody made generics. But then the other side of the argument is that if every company was an R&D giant with no generics, medicine wouldn't be affordable for the poor. Trying to tread a middle line that accommodates both viewpoints is tricky.

You raise an intriguing point about duplicating the packaging and this, for me, is a whole issue in itself. What is most acceptable (or least unacceptable) for clone companies to do:
1) Copy the packaging exactly, make absolutely no bones that they are stealing the original company's idea without claiming any original thought, but then perhaps mislead vapers into thinking they're buying an original. Of course, by using the original company's packaging, they are indirectly helping to raise awareness of that brand. And if users like the clone, they're in no doubt as to what to buy if they want the authentic.
2) Make it obvious that they have stolen the design and idea, put enough clues in the packaging to let people know it's a different (but copied) product, or
3) Steal the idea anyway but make it look like it's an independently designed product?

My sense is that 2 is best. It's honest enough to admit that the idea is stolen and also honest enough to not make the buyer think he's getting an original.

Then, if we bump the concept down a level from complete atties to atty components, what should we conclude about multiple atty manufacturers copying the Velocity or Goon decks? Should they have to ask permission from Velocity or Goon? What about coil types that are innovated by squidoode or others but then copied by commercial coil builders?

And then if we go broader into patents, there is the elephant in the room that Hon Lik's original patent for vaporiser technology was bought by a big tobacco company. I'm not an expert in patents but I think it's possible that at least some vape gear products (or types) might theoretically need permission or licensing from the patent holder. If we want to be absolutely above board where everybody does the right thing, do we want a situation where vaping companies might have to pay big tobacco as the patent holder for the vaporiser technology we use? Again, I'm not a legal expert, I might be talking total rubbish. I'm just saying there are many aspects to this, it's a veritable minefield.

 

[Effjh]

I am not ashamed to say I own quite a few clones and enjoy them all. saying that, I have to agree with you there @Silver.. copying the packaging/labels and logos is not really cool and leaves me with a moral dilemma. The other point you made is also 100% true, without the original creators the innovation of these great products would cease to exist.

The problem for me personally, is that I view the pricing of some of the 'higher end' authentic atties to be exorbitant regardless of R&D cost. I hate being ripped off and often vote with my wallet. That is why I don't support DSTV and don't get my internet through Mweb, I support whoever can give me the best value for money.

Instead of bashing the cloners, what if the authentic manufacturers took them out of the equation completely by providing their products at a more reasonable price. To justify the cost of some of the high end gear, you would expect it to be the best damn piece of gear you will ever own, this is very rarely the case. Just an idea, but if manufacturers stop overpricing gear we might see the clone market completely go out of business. I'd prefer that over the current status quo.

All said and done, I vape to stay off the cigs. I have no loyalty to any company, my loyalty lies with only my self and my well being. I will support anyone who will make that goal as affordable as possible to me.

 

[Feliks Karp]

Hi @RichJB - i do agree that affordable vape gear is very important to make vaping more accessible

Its just that when cloners clone something including the logo on it and sell it just like that then for me that is just wrong.

Another comment - I am no pharma expert but I thought generic alternatives become available only after patent protections on the OEM expire?

Another important note to mention is that a generic needs to bio-equivalent to its original, which means alot of the time they are analogue in nature or differing in a minor way to the original. I actually believe it would be more accurate to relate the rise of the "velocity-style" deck in many name brand atomizers to generic medicines rather than 1:1 clones.

However I don't want to end up derailing this thread in to a big-pharma debate, or one like the juice thread, my original question was actually meant in a ( admittedly vague) way to question the motives of cloners, and whether or not by supporting them we encourage an entire culture of rip-offs? I don't really agree that clones make vaping cheaper, they make "name brands" cheaper, and with the reports now and then of faulty fittings I need to question where else they are cutting corners, maybe even fake insulators (which make mech use inherently unsafe)?

I would however argue that expropriating technology in to a cheaper device like such as those that copy decks does actually make vaping cheaper, and actually leads to better technology development, we've seen a few companies just in the last year who started out in murky clone areas and turned in to making their own original (and affordable) atomizers, so while this is dubious, I do see the positive here, even if there is an overlap between the two.

 

[Silver]

Thats why i love your posts @RichJB !
So much food for thought and so much to analyse and discuss

Lets tackle some of it

On the issue of the pharmas getting patent protection to develop new innovations versus the generic producers making it more affordable - I do agree with you that a good balance is needed. I was under the impression that the balance has been operating for some time with patents for a certain period being upheld to help incentivise the OEM to continue innovating. Maybe someone closer to that field can comment on this.

Now onto vaping

I hear you about the cloners making it cheaper etc - and i like your three options you put forward. I do agree that option 2) seems the best when presented as you have - but I still think its wrong to copy something so blatantly and sell it. Irrespective of the laws or patents or lack thereof behind it. I am not saying it doesnt have benefits - of course it does (ability to try something cheaper, potentially markets the authentic and may make it more popular) - but it also has negatives for the original brand if its a badly made clone and we have seen lots of those.

It is a very difficult area because clones are typically much more affordable and can give a good vape experience if they are well made.

Just something inside me makes me feel uncomfortable when someone's work is copied/stolen and sold as an identical replica, letter for letter, including the logo without any qualms or conscience. That to me is wrong. I know its hard to have a good solution to this and i know its not easy to police or even worth policing. But i just think its not right.

 

[RichJB]

But i just think its not right.

Yes, I am fundamentally in agreement with that. One thing I also wanted to raise, which isn't often addressed in clone discussions: a common defence of clones is "the original manufacturer isn't losing a sale because the clone buyer isn't in their market". That is certainly true much of the time, and it applies to juice clones as well. I don't vape Cuttwood juice so if a DIYer comes up with a clone of a Cuttwood juice, Cuttwood aren't losing a sale by me mixing it. Equally, I'm never going to buy a Velocity dripper because I won't pay R1500 for a dripper. So Dino Ferrari didn't lose a sale by me buying a Tobeco clone.

However... it doesn't end there. If I couldn't buy a Velocity clone and if I wouldn't buy an original Velocity, then what would I buy? Probably a Geekvape or Wotofo or Jay-bo dripper, an authentic but at the budget end of the spectrum. So Geekvape or Wotofo or Jay-bo could argue that clones are hurting their sales. They are doing original designs very affordably, yet they are being punished by clone companies ripping off HE gear. I don't feel bad for Dino Ferrari because I bought a Velocity clone. But I should feel bad for Geekvape et al. Because I bought a clone product instead of buying their very reasonable and original product. I can't counter that argument. So if Jay-bo pops in here and asks for me, tune him you haven't seen me in weeks.

 

[Silver]

I am not ashamed to say I own quite a few clones and enjoy them all. saying that, I have to agree with you there @Silver.. copying the packaging/labels and logos is not really cool and leaves me with a moral dilemma. The other point you made is also 100% true, without the original creators the innovation of these great products would cease to exist.

The problem for me personally, is that I view the pricing of some of the 'higher end' authentic atties to be exorbitant regardless of R&D cost. I hate being ripped off and often vote with my wallet. That is why I don't support DSTV and don't get my internet through Mweb, I support whoever can give me the best value for money.

Instead of bashing the cloners, what if the authentic manufacturers took them out of the equation completely by providing their products at a more reasonable price. To justify the cost of some of the high end gear, you would expect it to be the best damn piece of gear you will ever own, this is very rarely the case. Just an idea, but if manufacturers stop overpricing gear we might see the clone market completely go out of business. I'd prefer that over the current status quo.

All said and done, I vape to stay off the cigs. I have no loyalty to any company, my loyalty lies with only my self and my well being. I will support anyone who will make that goal as affordable as possible to me.

You make very good points there @Effjh

I do agree that some of the higher end authentics do seem over priced. But then again, no one is forcing any of us to buy them and they are not the only products one can get to get a good vape experience. I am a great example of that. i absolutely LOVE the vape I am getting off my fairly "low end" gear - by tweaking the setup and the juice to my taste.

As to the idea of these high end manufacturers lowering their prices to take the cloners out of business, i doubt that would happen even though that would be so cool. I think their business model is different. I suspect its based on lower volumes and higher prices/margins - although i dont know for sure.

I just appreciate the effort and passion that folk put into their products. And that also applies locally!

 

[Raindance]

Thats why i love your posts @RichJB !
So much food for thought and so much to analyse and discuss

Lets tackle some of it

On the issue of the pharmas getting patent protection to develop new innovations versus the generic producers making it more affordable - I do agree with you that a good balance is needed. I was under the impression that the balance has been operating for some time with patents for a certain period being upheld to help incentivise the OEM to continue innovating. Maybe someone closer to that field can comment on this.

Now onto vaping

I hear you about the cloners making it cheaper etc - and i like your three options you put forward. I do agree that option 2) seems the best when presented as you have - but I still think its wrong to copy something so blatantly and sell it. Irrespective of the laws or patents or lack thereof behind it. I am not saying it doesnt have benefits - of course it does (ability to try something cheaper, potentially markets the authentic and may make it more popular) - but it also has negatives for the original brand if its a badly made clone and we have seen lots of those.

It is a very difficult area because clones are typically much more affordable and can give a good vape experience if they are well made.

Just something inside me makes me feel uncomfortable when someone's work is copied/stolen and sold as an identical replica, letter for letter, including the logo without any qualms or conscience. That to me is wrong. I know its hard to have a good solution to this and i know its not easy to police or even worth policing. But i just think its not right.

One issue not raised is that original manufacturers take all the risk. It is ok to manufacture cheap if what you manufacture is a proven marketplace success. However to bring a product to market without that assurance is a different case. One must consider the principle that some of the costs a manufacturer has to recover from a market place success needs to cover the cost of products they developed but were never a success.

The problem with cloning is that it removes the incentive for manufacturers to actually spend on R&D. So it is not only an ethical question but also has direct consequences to the consumer in that failure costs now need to be recovered from a smaller number of sales resulting in higher retail prices. Its a self perpetuating cycle of cause and effect.

@RichJB , no need to be embarrassed or take the fifth, I would also take the clone battery. So please do not take the above perspective as me trying to make some sort of statement of moral superiority. Money talks a language we all understand.

Regards

 

[Feliks Karp]

But I should feel bad for Geekvape et al. Because I bought a clone product instead of buying their very reasonable and original product. I can't counter that argument.

I think that's where we as a community should come in. It's like getting your first car, and while HE car x is a beautiful beast, at 19 you really only need the basic safety features and sensible fuel consumption of ME car y (not using direct model comparisons as I know how that ends up in this place ).

 

[Daniel]

I think that's where we as a community should come in. It's like getting your first car, and while HE car x is a beautiful beast, at 19 you really only need the basic safety features and sensible fuel consumption of ME car y (not using direct model comparisons as I know how that ends up in this place ).

Come on at 19 you buy the hottest kokkerot jelopi you can get your hands on mags and all....

Personally I think it's the vaping companies that coach us into wanting the latest and greatest.

If I knew what I know now I would have just saved my money and bought a ton of Pico Squeezas and good clones.....more money left for juices...

 

[kelly22]

I am currently. On treatment with. A generic cancer drug. Too lol

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

 

[kelly22]

I think iwe are letting this thread run away ,lets step back and think of clones and generics as a means for ppl who cannot afford it to have acess to the closest possible example of the authentic ,whether it b vape gear or drugs iv been on both.

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

 

[Clouds4Days]

So all this clone vs authentic talk and me wanting to get a authentic Kayfun V5 come month end because i will always try buy authentic if i can. (I only have one clone in my arsenal a o-atty and thats cause a authentic costs around $150)

But this o-atty is one hell of a RDA and i hope during the year i can get myself a authentic cause it is that good.

But back to the Kayfun v5, so i remebered a buddy of mine has the sxk clone so i borrowed it from him this evening to try out.

The quality of this clone is really good as per the review i put up earlier, but i just found out the Kayfun v5 is not for me as the draw is slightly too tight for my liking so thanks to a good clone i just saved myself 2k.

In this instance a clone was beneficial to helping me make a choice and even if i had paid for the clone it would have only cost me around R350 which i could sell and probably only loose R100 where as i would have to sell my authentic i would probably loose over R300.

So this all left me now thinking what RTA should i start looking at now since the kayfun is no longer in my future.

And ive pulled my aromamiser v1 out of retirement.
Still for me one of the best RDTA around with bottom airflow.
This tank has never leaked and building and wicking on it is such a breaze.

So for now im happy using the aromamiser again, i actually forgot what a freaking good vape she gives.

 

[Effjh]

So all this clone vs authentic talk and me wanting to get a authentic Kayfun V5 come month end because i will always try buy authentic if i can. (I only have one clone in my arsenal a o-atty and thats cause a authentic costs around $150)

But this o-atty is one hell of a RDA and i hope during the year i can get myself a authentic cause it is that good.

But back to the Kayfun v5, so i remebered a buddy of mine has the sxk clone so i borrowed it from him this evening to try out.

The quality of this clone is really good as per the review i put up earlier, but i just found out the Kayfun v5 is not for me as the draw is slightly too tight for my liking so thanks to a good clone i just saved myself 2k.

In this instance a clone was beneficial to helping me make a choice and even if i had paid for the clone it would have only cost me around R350 which i could sell and probably only loose R100 where as i would have to sell my authentic i would probably loose over R300.

So this all left me now thinking what RTA should i start looking at now since the kayfun is no longer in my future.

And ive pulled my aromamiser v1 out of retirement.
Still for me one of the best RDTA around with bottom airflow.
This tank has never leaked and building and wicking on it is such a breaze.

So for now im happy using the aromamiser again, i actually forgot what a freaking good vape she gives.

View attachment 88653

Fired up my aromamizer v1 again as well earlier this week and agree completely, totally forgot what a great flavour tank she is. Side airflow straight to coils with a dual vertical build.

As a side note, I prefer the tighter draw the KF5 offers. Since I started DIY and focusing more on flavour I found myself gravitate more towards tight airflow single coil set ups as I find more airflow = less flavour.

 

[Petrus]

My story of clone vs. Authentic? I owe about 6 authentic OL16 atty's and love them, so a couple of months back I ordered some assecories from Fasttech to see what you guys mean by slowmail, so I pulled the trigger on two OL16 clones based on reviews that looked quite good. Now for the fun part. I paid extra for EMS, wow lucky for me I waited 3 months for my order!! When I received my order I was quite impressed with the atty's, cleaned it and make my normal 1.5 mm dual coil build. Luckely I tested it in my ohm reader. Both of mine made a short at the top cap! I was so pissed!! I took the topcaps of an authentic and everything worked just fine. So my story ends buy paying 18 dollars for more spares: 8 grub screws and 8 O rings.

 

[Raindance]

Time for a roundup. Firstly thanks @Petrus for giving us all something to fuss about and adding some diversity to our weekend. By the way brother, don't you ever sleep? Just checking some time-stamps...

Right, we seem to have identified three different types of clones.

1. The "exact" copy which may have been developed with he intention to mislead the consumer into thinking they are purchasing the real deal. (LG battery example)
2. The "everybody knows its a knock off" copy which just blatantly chooses to compete with the original for market share based on price. Within this category the level comparability with the original can range from exact to not at all.
3. Generics. Hard to define this term as it relates to vaping but I would risk saying the reproduction of one brands ideas within another brands products. ( so many RDTA and GTA tanks all being technically virtually the same with only some aesthetic differences)

We also determined that most of us (if not all) are not immune to the allure of a bargain. At the same time we are also aware of the risks involved as well as the moral questions surrounding the issue.

Now what are we going to do with this knowledge?

Regards

 

[Rob Fisher]

I promised myself I would stay out of this thread... but I just want to say one thing and then I will crawl back into my hole.

Cloning is theft of intellectual property. It is morally wrong. There are plenty of decent reasonably priced Chinese devices that are originals. Don't support thieves!

OK back to my hole...

 

[Petrus]

@Raindance , thanks for the positive feedback, I knew the moment when I post there would be a hectic debate, but luckily we are a mature community and debate like adults about this matter. At the end of the day as long as you "The Vaper" got a setup that suits your needs and keep you off the stinkies you are a WINNER.

Oh, and the late nights, my friend if you reach a certain age, you immediately go to bed after your last Whiskey, in my case before 9 and then form 12 I go to the loo more often

 

[KZOR]

Why would you guys pay so much for these when Sir Vape sells a way superior quality version?

 

[jpzx12rturbo]

I'm strongly considering it @KZOR

 

[Raindance]

Why would you guys pay so much for these when Sir Vape sells a way superior quality version?

We are trying to figure that one out here @KZOR.

Regards

 

[Genosmate]

Why would you guys pay so much for these when Sir Vape sells a way superior quality version?

We are trying to figure that one out here @KZOR.

Regards

Judging by the smiley face at the end of @KZOR post I'd say it may be tongue in cheek,that or he's trying to stir up some Sunday morning controversy.
Me - Im staying out of the clones vs authentic debate.
I simply buy what I want because I can and because I have the choice

 

[Ash]

Judging by the smiley face at the end of @KZOR post I'd say it may be tongue in cheek,that or he's trying to stir up some Sunday morning controversy.
Me - Im staying out of the clones vs authentic debate.
I simply buy what I want because I can and because I have the choice

Well said