What makes High-End... High-End? Part 2

Ok, this seems to require a bit more attention than I thought.

Let us start off with the Hadaly. The Hadaly is actually not a mass produced item, in fact only 12,000 units have been made to date since its release. The reason for this is the complexity of its design and the time the deck spends on the CNC. The Hadaly is a HE RDA in every sense, its origin of design comes from 3 classic HE RDAs namely, the Hobo Drifter, M-Atty and NarDA. Psyclone took all of these fantastic RDAs and mutated out something really special.

Let me address the o-rings, whistling and overheating before I continue. The o-rings are tight on purpose to prevent condensation to get between the deck and cap and cause leaking in between. If you apply your basic maintenance of o-rings you would know that for ANY new RDA you should always apply PG to them before putting the cap on. This prevents the rings from slipping and stretching. If your deck is not sitting flush, chances are that you have stretched your o-rings and need replacing. If your cap is extremely tight, chances are that you never lubricated them up. One needs to remember that the Hadaly is not like your normal commercial RDA that has low tolerance levels and that needs to be compensated for in design due to mass production i.e. 100,000+ units.

The whistling is due to the fact that either the cap is not sitting flush (which I have discussed above) or the fact when you put the BF pin you did not keep the positive post correctly seated and it moved slightly where the insulator is slightly visible through your air hole. This is a simple fix by unscrewing your 510 and then aligning the deck to where the insulator is not visible and tightening the 510 back in.

As for the tank overheating at 0.6ohms, that is not the greatest way to look at things. Remember this is NOT a cloud blowing RDA, this is a flavor tank. If you are going to have a beefy build in this RDA you are going to overheat it. Try a simple Ni80 28x2 fused 38, 3mm ID, 5 wraps, counterclockwise spun at 38W which will come to about 0.55ohms. I promise you that you will be BLOWN away!

Now lets put an end to this HE speculation. My post is not a matter of opinion but rather a matter of facts. I participate in many of the HE designs and prototype testing. I am apart of the groups where selection of HE status is done in fact. One needs to understand that the reason a NarDA or M-Atty is done within the USA completely and in boutique workshops is because of history. If you actually knew the history behind this you would know that Nareg (The owner and designer of Nar Mods) was actually betrayed by Odis, I don't really want to get into the details of this but I can say that after this entire debacle the entire design was brought in house and was done in partnership with his close friend Hoberto Serrano who used to own Hobo until he closed down because he got a 10 year contract with NASA to do special equipment builds due to the incredible workshop he has.

One must remember that this boutique workshops have 1 to 3 specialized CNC 4 axis
machines. The output will be much smaller than that of overseas. Does this change the quality between that of a NarDA and a Hadaly, the answer is no, because the machine code is developed USA side with its CNC clamps and then shipped overseas for production. One needs to remember the tolerance levels are minuscule. If we look at the price of the NarDA it is $99 for the RDA - the price of finding one outside of Nar Mods increases because of the difficulty to get one, the question one needs to ask is Nareg making any more money because of the flipper prices, the answer is no! The same applies to Matt that makes the M-Atty, he retails at around $120 yet it flips for $1000. That is just the name of the game. Mac's vision was to release a HE atty that anybody could get, which is very similar to Tom who owns 528 customs.

With the attys that have been mentioned here that might be considered "HE" I can promise you they are not. I am not trying to bash or saying anything negative towards any replies that have been made, I just think that the facts should always be stated correctly.

If you look at the Hadaly, and its brother RDAs you cannot show me one commercial RDA that even matches their design, the reason being is that the production cost for 100,000+ units would be ridiculous. It is just the name of the game at the end of the day and where you want to be placed within the game. An interesting fact, the Goon 24 sold 85,000 units over the years it has been available. Interesting no?

Hope that helps?
 
I think time reveals a high-end product. Take the Nuppin for example. That is what I call HE. You don't see many of them for sale yet there were many sent here.

It's old now but I still have 2 in rotation. I have had any tried many newer HE atties since and they don't compare to the quality of the vape. I actually traded 3 other HE atties for the second after getting the first, each that had a cost price similar to the Nuppin, so technically I paid 3 times what it cost.

It also had it's finicky problem, specifically the post screws that stripped easily so I did a bulk order on those but then I only recoil them once or twice annually. Some have complained about the difficulty building with a postless design yet it's simpler than most once you get the hang of it. By contrast though, I have dropped these hard with my Reo's numerous times and I could simply put the pieces together and keep on vaping so while it's expensive, it certainly is HE to me.

Another atty I think is HE is actually cheap is the Bellus. Didn't just make another easy to build velocity style atty that gives the same old crappy vape but instead it focussed on awesome flavour, good vapour, and that awesome design pretty much meant you never had dry hits. Plain old atty without any fancy materials or colours etc but a well designed atty that provided and good vape.

I agree that time reveals all things, whether they be good or bad or indifferent. Why I have a problem with "first look" reviews that calls something the latest/greatest of its kind. Using it daily for weeks/months without putting in on a shelf, giving it away or reselling it is a review that says something worth hearing.

Also agree that the Nuppin' is an exceptional and versatile BF atty. I bought 8 of them for good reason (V1's and V2's) that have always resided on Reos.
 
I agree that time reveals all things, whether they be good or bad or indifferent. Why I have a problem with "first look" reviews that calls something the latest/greatest of its kind. Using it daily for weeks/months without putting in on a shelf, giving it away or reselling it is a review that says something worth hearing.

Also agree that the Nuppin' is an exceptional and versatile BF atty. I bought 8 of them for good reason (V1's and V2's) that have always resided on Reos.

You guys should look at some of the mesh attys for your Reos and then you will experience utopia!
 
You guys should look at some of the mesh attys for your Reos and then you will experience utopia!

I started down that path some time back with a NoGain, then got sidetracked and never pursued it further.
 
Now lets put an end to this HE speculation. My post is not a matter of opinion but rather a matter of facts. I participate in many of the HE designs and prototype testing. I am apart of the groups where selection of HE status is done in fact.

If I understand you correctly, what you're saying here is that you and your buddies who design, manufacture and sell these HE items decide that they, and only they, are HE items.

You really could've just answered the question in your topic with this statement and saved us simple plebs the time and effort of debating the intrinsic philosophical qualities of what "high end" means.
 
If I understand you correctly, what you're saying here is that you and your buddies who design, manufacture and sell these HE items decide that they, and only they, are HE items.

You really could've just answered the question in your topic with this statement and saved us simple plebs the time and effort of debating the intrinsic philosophical qualities of what "high end" means.

Way da go @Huffapuff... how to win friends and influence people... @Takie went to great lengths to explain (which I thought he did pretty Well) and all you did was pass a snide remark.

You have missed the whole point of HE...
 
If I understand you correctly, what you're saying here is that you and your buddies who design, manufacture and sell these HE items decide that they, and only they, are HE items.

You really could've just answered the question in your topic with this statement and saved us simple plebs the time and effort of debating the intrinsic philosophical qualities of what "high end" means.

I apologies if I have offended you, my post was not intended in a manner to say that my buddies and I decide what is HE, however what I think needs to be understood is that Vaping can be compared to the likes of fashion. You have your runway designers that innovate and set the trends that then filter down to your boutique clothing stores and from there that fashion filters further down to your general consumption. Ultimately I think the world would love to have every person innovating but I guess we do not live in a perfect world. I have not presented any facts that are subjective but are purely objective. We live in the day and age where knowledge is freely available. Start off with the VapingSnob website and you will start to see that what I have stated here is just a summarized version on their website.

I truly do not have to make any posts on this forum, but I was asked to share what I have learnt and gained through my time being in the High-End arena. If you don't like what I have to say then you simply do not have to read it.

I will leave it at that...
 
I really do find this interesting and very helpful insight into HE and do appreciate the efforts to explain @Takie ,starting to understand what goes into these HE hardware and dont think it to be unreasonable to spend your hard earned money on some real craftsmanship! Once again thanks for your time and the awesome writeup!! Hope to hear more from you!:campeon:
 
@Takie thank you for these very informative posts and please realise that they are indeed being appreciated. It is a glimpse into the future of vaping. The people on the cutting edge always get the most resistance unfortunately the world always applauds in retrospect. What some people fail to realise is that the HE market is driven by passion and enthusiasm, both things that cannot be bought or taught.

Just wish they would break the mold a little with regards to the chipset tech, but I'm sure that will still come
 
I apologies if I have offended you, my post was not intended in a manner to say that my buddies and I decide what is HE, however what I think needs to be understood is that Vaping can be compared to the likes of fashion. You have your runway designers that innovate and set the trends that then filter down to your boutique clothing stores and from there that fashion filters further down to your general consumption. Ultimately I think the world would love to have every person innovating but I guess we do not live in a perfect world. I have not presented any facts that are subjective but are purely objective. We live in the day and age where knowledge is freely available. Start off with the VapingSnob website and you will start to see that what I have stated here is just a summarized version on their website.

I truly do not have to make any posts on this forum, but I was asked to share what I have learnt and gained through my time being in the High-End arena. If you don't like what I have to say then you simply do not have to read it.

I will leave it at that...

Please keep posting on HE @Takie even though i wont buy 99% of the stuff regarded HE i still love to know the diffrence and what else is available in the world of vaping.

Imagine a world where the cars one only knew about was a fiat multipla and a ford ka , but outside of our bubble there were amazing things like Porsche GT3 R, Ferrari La Ferrari and Lamborghini Aventadore's and we didn't know existed....

Love reading all your write ups bud.
 
@Takie thank you for these very informative posts and please realise that they are indeed being appreciated. It is a glimpse into the future of vaping. The people on the cutting edge always get the most resistance unfortunately the world always applauds in retrospect. What some people fail to realise is that the HE market is driven by passion and enthusiasm, both things that cannot be bought or taught.

Just wish they would break the mold a little with regards to the chipset tech, but I'm sure that will still come

I will discuss this in detail in my next post! Great suggestion! I have a lot to say about this, you will be shocked at why there has not been much out there just yet.
 
O yea and the only reason i wont buy 99% of the stuff is because my wife would not be pleased if we had to eat peanut butter sandwiches for dinner to support my vaping hobby :-D
 
@Rob Fisher and @Takie I meant no offense and if I have offended I do apologize.

I have been enjoying the information and debate around what makes something HE and just found that comment surprising in light of all that's gone before.

Vaping, like fashion, is an area that is filled with hype and exaggeration and you have to admit that the HE side of it is especially guilty of this. At the end of the day the enduring legacy of an atty or mod will win out if it truly is HE.

So far I have found that the hadaly lives up to the hype, so @Takie may just be on to something :wink:
 
@Rob Fisher and @Takie I meant no offense and if I have offended I do apologize.

I have been enjoying the information and debate around what makes something HE and just found that comment surprising in light of all that's gone before.

Vaping, like fashion, is an area that is filled with hype and exaggeration and you have to admit that the HE side of it is especially guilty of this. At the end of the day the enduring legacy of an atty or mod will win out if it truly is HE.

So far I have found that the hadaly lives up to the hype, so @Takie may just be on to something :wink:

When I first got introduced into HE it scared the hell out of me! I really felt like a n00b all over again, it was depressing!
 
So now if I take a step back, surely an RDA that costs R500 compared to R1500 should not be that much different other than the "style" of vaping I have? This can also be said that surely a clone is just as good as an authentic RDA right? This in fact is completely wrong.

Firstly lets put to bed the whole clone story. A clone yes can be a replica in look of an RDA however one needs to consider the following facts. The chances of the clone being of the same metallurgical composition and properties is out the window. This means that the design of the RDA that factors things like HEAT TRANSFER are completely set out of balance. Why this is important you ask? Well it is very simple. Although the irony is that we heat a coil to produce vaper, the actual cap and deck heating to a high temperature has an impact on the vaper production, quality of flavor and efficiency and demand I have on my mod - SO heat on my DECK is a NO,NO. The materials used in HE RDAs are used to keep the unit as cool as possible and to also dissipate heat as quickly as possible. This is the first thing that is factored when an RDA is made. You would be shocked how many HE modders claim a "majority" stainless steel 316L base but in fact have added "unnamed" additional materials into the composition to enhance heat transfer physics. I bet that has got your mind thinking already?
That is one of the many reasons clones are plain and simply crap! Should there be a need for me to go into more detail about this - I will do so if asked.

That just ain't so.

Let me preface this by saying I'm getting an authentic Hadaly RDA not because of some mistrust of Chinese clones. but because I have the money to be able to afford one, and a vendor I like supporting has them in stock.

The Hadaly, is more of a refinement and an iterative improvement than a totally brand new idea, there have been 2 atties prior to it that it borrows from (nothing wrong with that at all) the NaRDA and the other one I think is called... the O atty or something like that. and Possibly a hint of Pharaoh too.

That stuff about heat transfer.... What are to trying to articulate? Metal, be it brass, copper, stainless steel, adamantium, uru, etc... conducts heat, changing the levels of carbon and other additives may have some small effect on it, but as far as a human being without instrumentation being able to determine it, thats just not very likely.

If you want to talk about vapor production, then air pressure to the surface of the coil, and the coils surface area are the key ingredients, the atty itself heating up or staying cool is besides the point.

What i will say is that if the atty does get hot, it can compromise the juice left in the well/wicks and the flavour will suck.

But speaking in general terms with most of the RDA's i've used, if you maximise your build to be as close as possible to the airflow, this isn't a huge issue.

If they still believe that heat is an issue, then integrating some form of ceramic\glass into the atties design is a far more efficient route to take.

I've used a great many clones, and a fair few authentic pieces of gear, and honestly, for the most part the clones i've used have either matched or surpassed the authentics, let me be clear, there are tons of BS clones to be had, but if you keep your wits about you, some of them are indistinguishable for the genuine article both in terms of materials, and finish.

The fact of the matter is that because of their economy, and the way they handle labour (human converyor belts, not child labour or anything like that) they are simply able to produce the pieces at a fraction of the cost of most other parts of the world. Which is why i've long had the belief that a lot of western mod makers need to embrace China. DotMod sort of did, but i mean the price of their gear is still high AF.

All of this though has not much to do with what defines a High End piece of gear.

I think there are 2 schools of thought, and neither is wrong.

School One.
Think about car clubs (not mclaren, lamborgini, etc...) like I dunno, a mini car club. To those people mini's are the peak of high end, why? Because they flick whatever switches in the peoples brains that make them feel good. is it HE for the masses? Hells no, but for those people its everything.

Vaping definitely has its little segments like that. Where the thing they love, really doesn't make much sense or satisfy the masses, but they're happy, and they're having a perceived HE experience, more power to them, let them be happy.

School Two
This is the Lamborgini car club. The gear is expensive and made out of exotic materials, and often (as with supercars) can be wildly impractical for daily use (I don't think anyone would seriously consider taking their $5000.00 tophat mod out of the house to run some errands). That said a much larger segment finds this appealing, because of the eccentricity and because of pigeon syndrome (and irrational attraction to shiny things, which just about everyone suffers from).

Again more power to them, but it has to be said, that sometimes the disparity between price and quality can be truly horrifying (Look back to the first authentic C-Frame mods, and the quality of their construction, or to the masses of people affected by bad batches of boards, etc...) But thats just it, the people that play the School Two game have the money to risk, so then let them risk it, because some of the stuff is really amazing.

I think I fall into a small minority, I consider a piece of gear to be High End based on only one thing. Effort required to use it vs. the quality of vape it provides. Other aspects of it, are much less important (looks, materials, pricing, etc...)
 
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@Takie I am thoroughly enjoying what you have to say on these threads and am enjoying reading it and learning more...

Thanks for your efforts

PS - With regard to some of the stuff you are talking about I am feeling very Noob :)
But it doesnt make me scared, it makes me excited
 
Hmmm, I think maybe the term HE/high-end is seen in 2 ways here. One is from the one that put's the sticker HE on it if it checks the boxes on the list of requirements according to that definition. The other is actually the words "high end" that @n0ugh7_zw has mentioned that people generally think of from their own view.

This makes it a lot clearer now. I'm just going to look at any vape related things with here with HE on it a branding or a type now than how I would define those woulds since those two definitions are not the same.
 
Thank you @Takie the world of HE is very interesting. I am not quite at the point where I can take the plunge, but one day I am sure. For now I will follow and see where the road leads.
 
Thanks @Takie for taking the time to provide all of this information. It is certainly interesting and strange how such a big group of enthusiasts (check the vape mail thread!) did not know about all of this.

I am quite curious about all the secrecy. Why? Secret groups and purchases etc? I'm sure you can understand how all of this can seem to be elitist to the untrained eye. Also the bit of deciding HE status - Why is this being done? Surely consumers decide that and can tell whether something is HE or crap. Or is there some kind of official stamp of approval?
I am not asking this as a passive attack. Just really curious as to how this all works.

I would also love to hear your take on juice. Are there certain brands considered HE that we normal folks also don't know of and if so what makes it so great? This is an interesting question for me as I chase flavour, but my tastebuds hate me and after three drags I can't taste what I am vaping anymore. If there were to be some HE magic juice preventing that my life would be changed.
 
Elitism includes the belief or attitude that individuals share who form a select group of people with an intrinsic quality or other distinctive attributes whose influence is greater than that of others.

As it applies to material things like vape gear, it is also about ego driven greed... for the makers to command higher prices... for the buyers to have a better chance of acquiring gear that is custom/semi-custom made in very small numbers for bragging rights and pride of ownership.

Does the existence of these vape gear groups offend me? Not at all, nor should anyone let it bother them. Elitism is very wide spread worldwide for an endless variety of concepts.
 
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