Bad PG?

[X-Calibre786]

I have been vaping only DIY (mostly using one-shots) juices for years now and have never experienced this before, so I'm looking for some advice or at least someone who can tell me that I'm not being stupid. My latest batch of juices have all turned out to have a horrible throat hit and the cotton and coils get gunked up really quick. The only thing that's changed as far as I can tell is that I opened a new bottle of PG. I used the same one-shots as before, the same nicotine as before and the same VG as before. Even the PG is the same brand as before, just a new bottle.

Has anyone experienced a bad batch of PG and is this something that could even happen from bad PG?

 

[Paul33]

That is very odd but to me the only thing that can cause throat hit like that is the nicotine.

I made a batch recently and I don’t think I shook the nic enough and it’s been awful. Rookie mistake in my side but it’s been terrible. I doubt the PG would be the cause but I’ve been wrong before (which my wife can vouch for)

 

[X-Calibre786]

The plan is to make a small amount of just 70/30 VG/PG mix. No flavours and no nicotine. Just so I know for sure whether its the PG or VG.

 

[Paul33]

The plan is to make a small amount of just 70/30 VG/PG mix. No flavours and no nicotine. Just so I know for sure whether its the PG or VG.

thats a good plan! good luck.

 

[Intuthu Kagesi]

Degradation of propylene glycol in sunlight, (Ultraviolet light), would yield a bunch of acids and small amounts of acetone, however this would takes months of being left in bright sunlight .... The main degradation product of propylene glycol would be lactic acid (2-hydroxypropionic acid), along with a little formic, acetic, and oxalic acids, and yes, it would taste kak, however if anything, the acids should lessen any throat hit, (think Nic Salts vs. Freebase), so I'm going to side with Paul here and point a finger at your Nic. ... the only other possibility is that your PG was contaminated with something "obscene"?

 

[X-Calibre786]

Degradation of propylene glycol in sunlight, (Ultraviolet light), would yield a bunch of acids and small amounts of acetone, however this would takes months of being left in bright sunlight .... The main degradation product of propylene glycol would be lactic acid (2-hydroxypropionic acid), along with a little formic, acetic, and oxalic acids, and yes, it would taste kak, however if anything, the acids should lessen any throat hit, (think Nic Salts vs. Freebase), so I'm going to side with Paul here and point a finger at your Nic. ... the only other possibility is that your PG was contaminated with something "obscene"?

I love your detailed responses! Will update on this once I've tested over the weekend.

 

[Paul33]

I love your detailed responses! Will update on this once I've tested over the weekend.

he just likes to flex his brain every now and again...

 

[Intuthu Kagesi]

A few more thoughts, (brain flexings), on the subject;
High nicotine levels can lead to a harsh throat hit ... Did you shake you bottle of Nic before adding?
Poor-quality nicotine can also result in a harsh taste and throat hit ... It should be a clear liquid, and may well have oxidised? ... It's carrier, either PG or VG cannot "go off", however PG can undergo a chemical change as mentioned above, and concentrates, depending on their makeup, could undergo changes that may or may not include a harsh throat hit and or cotton and coil gunking.
Propylene glycol (PG) can contribute to throat hit if the % is high ... try shifting to a higher % of VG for a smoother vape experience ... Some people have an almost allergic reaction to PG, however even in a broken down state, would NOT gunk up cotton or coils.
Neither PG of VG can "go off", however any impurities within them can, and certainly those impurities could gunk up your cotton and or coils.
Some flavorings, especially citrus, spice, or certain sweeteners, can cause irritation and contribute to a harsh throat hit ... As you're using One-Shots, confirm that the manufacturer hasn't changed their recipe ... possibly added more sweetener?
Then to the gunking of cotton and coils ... All sweeteners caramelize on coils, leading to gunk buildup, AND ... excessive sweetener in e-liquid can also contribute to a harsh throat hit, and darker, sweeter e-liquids tend to gunk up coils faster due to the caramelization of sugars and other (sweet) flavorings.
Last but not least ... Vaping at excessively high wattages or temperatures can lead to a harsher vape experience and quicker cotton / coil degradation ... Is your mod delivering what you think it is power wise?

 

[DougP]

For what it's worth. I have experienced exactly the same.

Through a process of elimination I found that my PG was bad and my juice unvapeable. .
Extremely harsh on the throat and lungs, almost like a harsh chemical burnt taste and coils went pitch black in literally 10 puffs.

PG was bought in mid January from a reputable Vape product supplier that I have used for years.

I switched to a different supplier and their PG is fine.

It was an extremely frustrating and expensive exercise because I had to throw away 300 mls of mixed juice for 2 different flavours that I mix weekly. So 600ml of juice was ruined.

 

[DougP]

The plan is to make a small amount of just 70/30 VG/PG mix. No flavours and no nicotine. Just so I know for sure whether its the PG or VG.

I did a 10ml batch starting just with VG and then adding PG and very quickly isolated the PG as the problem.



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[Intuthu Kagesi]

For what it's worth. I have experienced exactly the same.

Through a process of elimination I found that my PG was bad and my juice unvapeable. .
Extremely harsh on the throat and lungs, almost like a harsh chemical burnt taste and coils went pitch black in literally 10 puffs.

PG was bought in mid January from a reputable Vape product supplier that I have used for years.

I switched to a different supplier and their PG is fine.

It was an extremely frustrating and expensive exercise because I had to throw away 300 mls of mixed juice for 2 different flavours that I mix weekly. So 600ml of juice was ruined.

That's a poor show, and I'd take it up with the supplier, as it must have been full of contaminants and stored in bright sunlight for some months

 

[DougP]

That's a poor show, and I'd take it up with the supplier, as it must have been full of contaminants and stored in bright sunlight for some months

I have heard via the grape vine that around mid November there was a national shortage of PG and VG locally.
So I don't know if a scrupulous manufacturer sold "dubious" PG to the Retailers or not. I don't believe they 'the Retailers" have done this knowingly.

As for taking it up with the supplier.
Yeah sure.. been there done that in the past when I was supplied rotten NIC, whilst mixing commercially, that cost me 20 liters of juice.
You can slam the defective product down on their counter and they will say it was fine here but since it has left the shop the ownice is on you to store and use it properly so you obviously haven't done that. Bla bla...

I have been mixing juice commercially, and privately, for over 10 years and have never had a problem with PG. This is the first time. I would never have thought at the outset it was the PG.

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[X-Calibre786]

A few more thoughts, (brain flexings), on the subject;
High nicotine levels can lead to a harsh throat hit ... Did you shake you bottle of Nic before adding?
Poor-quality nicotine can also result in a harsh taste and throat hit ... It should be a clear liquid, and may well have oxidised? ... It's carrier, either PG or VG cannot "go off", however PG can undergo a chemical change as mentioned above, and concentrates, depending on their makeup, could undergo changes that may or may not include a harsh throat hit and or cotton and coil gunking.
Propylene glycol (PG) can contribute to throat hit if the % is high ... try shifting to a higher % of VG for a smoother vape experience ... Some people have an almost allergic reaction to PG, however even in a broken down state, would NOT gunk up cotton or coils.
Neither PG of VG can "go off", however any impurities within them can, and certainly those impurities could gunk up your cotton and or coils.
Some flavorings, especially citrus, spice, or certain sweeteners, can cause irritation and contribute to a harsh throat hit ... As you're using One-Shots, confirm that the manufacturer hasn't changed their recipe ... possibly added more sweetener?
Then to the gunking of cotton and coils ... All sweeteners caramelize on coils, leading to gunk buildup, AND ... excessive sweetener in e-liquid can also contribute to a harsh throat hit, and darker, sweeter e-liquids tend to gunk up coils faster due to the caramelization of sugars and other (sweet) flavorings.
Last but not least ... Vaping at excessively high wattages or temperatures can lead to a harsher vape experience and quicker cotton / coil degradation ... Is your mod delivering what you think it is power wise?

Nic is from a bottle that used previously, stored in the fridge. Thoroughly shaken before use. PG and VG are stored in a dark cupboard. VG and One-Shots were also bottles that were previously used. PG/VG ratio was the same as always. Cotton, coils, and devices and wattages all the same as before. Also tried the juice in a different tank/mod combo with the same result. Will be mixing the PG/VG test batch tomorrow.

 

[DougP]

Nic is from a bottle that used previously, stored in the fridge. Thoroughly shaken before use. PG and VG are stored in a dark cupboard. VG and One-Shots were also bottles that were previously used. PG/VG ratio was the same as always. Cotton, coils, and devices and wattages all the same as before. Also tried the juice in a different tank/mod combo with the same result. Will be mixing the PG/VG test batch tomorrow.

Your PG is off.
Trust me on this
Take a fresh coil drop a few drops of VG on it and try a puff.
Now add 1 drop of that PG, take a puff and you will see.



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[X-Calibre786]

I had a busy few days, so didn't get around to doing the test of the PG. The vendor did reach out to me to ask if I'd bought the PG from them, and they arranged to replace it and collect the suspected bad batch for testing on their end.

 

[Paul33]

I had a busy few days, so didn't get around to doing the test of the PG. The vendor did reach out to me to ask if I'd bought the PG from them, and they arranged to replace it and collect the suspected bad batch.

Cant go wrong with service like that.

 

[X-Calibre786]

So it seems that it was the PG. Made a 10ml of juice using the replacement PG and no problems so far. Shoutout to @Richio for sorting this out for me.

 

[Paul33]

So it seems that it was the PG. Made a 10ml of juice using the replacement PG and no problems so far. Shoutout to @Richio for sorting this out for me.

The guys and gals at BLCK cannot be beaten for service!

 

[Stranger]

The guys and gals at BLCK cannot be beaten for service!

100%

 

[DougP]

So it seems that it was the PG. Made a 10ml of juice using the replacement PG and no problems so far. Shoutout to @Richio for sorting this out for me.

Glad you got sorted


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[JacoF]

So it seems that it was the PG. Made a 10ml of juice using the replacement PG and no problems so far. Shoutout to @Richio for sorting this out for me.

Hi do you maybe know what the batch number was of the PG?

 

[X-Calibre786]

Hi do you maybe know what the batch number was of the PG?

I didn't write it down, but if I remember correctly it started with 202311. Made me think it was from November 2023.