Dangers Of Clones

Humbolt said:
Yip, I agree with you 100%. I DIY my own juices, though, and buy my things from a reputable dealer. Although there are some juice manufacturers around who do get their juices mixed in a lab, and most of them will provide proof that they do should you ask. Would a counterfeit juice manufacturer be able to do the same?

Agree with this too, the recent Listeriosis outbreak can attest to this.

True, but at least with authentic juices you can still act against the manufacturer in the event that something should go wrong. I doubt this would be easy to do with counterfeit juices.
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Im new to this forum so not entirely sure how you quote multiple times like that


On another note firslty i just want to say i am not undermining you in any way what so ever.


DIY is possibly the best thing to do because you know what goes in so know what comes out

Unfortunately i do not have the time or patience to mix and build coils. I would love to and enjoy doing so.

Plus buying liquids give me the exposure and allos me to taste many different things.


I agree with what you said. Ryan hall had a video where he visited some manufactorer and they had very professional staff and facilities however not all producers are like that.
 
Modyrts said:
Im new to this forum so not entirely sure how you quote multiple times like that


On another note firslty i just want to say i am not undermining you in any way what so ever.


DIY is possibly the best thing to do because you know what goes in so know what comes out

Unfortunately i do not have the time or patience to mix and build coils. I would love to and enjoy doing so.

Plus buying liquids give me the exposure and allos me to taste many different things.


I agree with what you said. Ryan hall had a video where he visited some manufactorer and they had very professional staff and facilities however not all producers are like that.
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Hey no worries my man, we are merely expressing our own points of view :)

Check out Vapour Mountain, for one. They have recently opened the doors to their new facility, pics should be in their subforum.
I also know that Lungasm has their juices mixed in a lab as well. I'm sure there are more who do the same. And IIRC @Clouds4Days did a video where he went around to one of the local vendors mixing facility as well. Very cool to watch, if you're interested.
 
Oh and to quote sections of someones post, just highlight the text you would like to quote and a "quote" banner should pop up.
 
Humbolt said:
Hey no worries my man, we are merely expressing our own points of view :)

Check out Vapour Mountain, for one. They have recently opened the doors to their new facility, pics should be in their subforum.
I also know that Lungasm has their juices mixed in a lab as well. I'm sure there are more who do the same. And IIRC @Clouds4Days did a video where he went around to one of the local vendors mixing facility as well. Very cool to watch, if you're interested.
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I will definitely check that out
 
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I think it's a bit of a grey area because there are a LOT of variables that are not being discussed here, for instance, if I have a friend who makes a killer clone and sells it to me for R100/60ml, I'll probably not have an issue with that because he's saving me the trouble of making it myself and I know him well enough to know his brewing standards. On the other, much darker end of the spectrum some passing vaper on the street says "phone this bra, Twakkie, I met him at a robot the other day, he makes djas juice". Twakkie makes his own original flavour, i.e. not a clone, and sticks a smiley face onto the old eye dropper bottle he sells his juice in with the flavour written on the cap with a permanent marker. Twakkie only deals in cash and will only meet you in the local parking lot to sell his juice.

I would buy the clone from my buddy 1,000 x 1,000 times before even phoning Twakkie.

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So clones are not necessarily the danger per se. You can find the most unique juice flavour out there, never before tasted, and it can be dangerous. What matters is... (drumroll)...

The Source.

Any reputable company making juice will be liable for the product they produce and face all manner of charges if their product had to be tested by a third party and found to contain anything not specified on the label, so it stands to reason that they take the utmost care to ensure that what goes in that bottle is what they intended and not a picolitre of anything else.

And now for the informative part when it comes to faffing about the contents of that which you consume: Did you know that the FDA, the same FDA that sits on it's high-horse when it comes to vaping, maintains what's referred to as a "Defect Levels Handbook" which stipulates standards such a "ACCEPTABLE NUMBER OF BUG PARTS AND/OR RODENT DROPPINGS" in consumer foods. Isn't science fun..?
 
It's quite easy to get to a price point of R120 for 100ml. It costs me who purchase on small scale around 80c p/ml all inclusive.

They buy on a large scale, clone juices whether it be in their kitchens or garage floors, have very low overheads and expenses, and sell at low margins. What they put in there I do not know, but they can easily use decent stuff and still get to those price points.

I am not condoning this, nor have I ever purchased a clone juice - just rationalizing how they get to these price points.

I mostly DIY as I just cannot get myself to purchase juice which costs 4x the amount of what it costs me to make juice. I understand the owners need to make a living, and the retailers have expenses - fair enough. I just do not have the money to continuously vape "premium" liquid with the amount that I vape. It will cost me double of what smoking cost me. I vape around 20ml - 30ml a day - let's use the minimum of 20ml. In a month that is around 600ml. Take a mixture of VK Prime and some other local vendors and say it's on average R160 for 60ml, so it will cost me R1,600 p/m just for juice, It used to cost me R800 a month to smoke cigarettes (Was still around R25 per pack of Winston Blue).

Now and then I buy premium juice, but mostly house brands, like the new VK Prime range is excellent and priced quite well.

There will always be a market for clones - some vapers do not have the finances to pay R350 for a 100ml, so they buy the crap at the flea market @ R120 for 100ml.
 
Humbolt said:
I think the popcorn lung myth has been debunked a very long time ago
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I'm not sure it has. If a patient dies from HIV, the cause of death will probably be listed as pneumonia or whatever illness attacks his weakened immune system. A poor diet won't be listed as the cause of death but it can exacerbate his condition and make it easier for HIV/AIDS to take its toll.

Iirc there was some disagreement between Drs Siegel and Farsalinos on this matter. Siegel was saying that the popcorn lung stories are rubbish and fake news. Farsalinos countered that popcorn lung might not be the primary diagnosis if a smoker dies - but that, if present, it could be a contributory factor. So even though the popcorn lung hardening of the cells is not fatal and not the cause of death, it could exacerbate emphysema or lung cancer and make it less likely that your body can fight against these primary conditions. Farsalinos based his observation on autopsies of diseased lung tissues which showed clear evidence of popcorn lung, even though the smoker was diagnosed as having died from lung cancer. The medical conclusion is that the popcorn lung condition just made an already severe problem worse.

I think we can safely say that it's hugely unlikely that any vaper will ever be diagnosed with popcorn lung. Whether we can say that this means that DAAP has no harmful effect on our lungs is debatable. The juice industry has taken a precautionary approach to DAAP which is a good idea in my view. Of course, I throw caution to the winds and vape FW Yellow Cake till I glow in the dark. But I smoked for 37 years. Intelligence clearly isn't my strong suit.
 
RichJB said:
I'm not sure it has. If a patient dies from HIV, the cause of death will probably be listed as pneumonia or whatever illness attacks his weakened immune system. A poor diet won't be listed as the cause of death but it can exacerbate his condition and make it easier for HIV/AIDS to take its toll.

Iirc there was some disagreement between Drs Siegel and Farsalinos on this matter. Siegel was saying that the popcorn lung stories are rubbish and fake news. Farsalinos countered that popcorn lung might not be the primary diagnosis if a smoker dies - but that, if present, it could be a contributory factor. So even though the popcorn lung hardening of the cells is not fatal and not the cause of death, it could exacerbate emphysema or lung cancer and make it less likely that your body can fight against these primary conditions. Farsalinos based his observation on autopsies of diseased lung tissues which showed clear evidence of popcorn lung, even though the smoker was diagnosed as having died from lung cancer. The medical conclusion is that the popcorn lung condition just made an already severe problem worse.

I think we can safely say that it's hugely unlikely that any vaper will ever be diagnosed with popcorn lung. Whether we can say that this means that DAAP has no harmful effect on our lungs is debatable. The juice industry has taken a precautionary approach to DAAP which is a good idea in my view. Of course, I throw caution to the winds and vape FW Yellow Cake till I glow in the dark. But I smoked for 37 years. Intelligence clearly isn't my strong suit.
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I wish we could rate a post more than once, because this post is informative, the vaping of yellow cake till you glow in the dark I can relate to and its really funny as well. :-D
 
Guys I'm going to say this again.
You're referring to fake juice. Not clone juice.
It's a very, very important distinction and can lead to all kinds of misunderstandings.
 
aktorsyl said:
Guys I'm going to say this again.
You're referring to fake juice. Not clone juice.
It's a very, very important distinction and can lead to all kinds of misunderstandings.
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Agreed 100%, to the point that I think we should maybe request the thread title be changed.

@SSSSMARCUSSSSS would that be a problem? I'm fairly certain that you are referring to the same thing (fake/counterfeit juices) as everyone else.
 
Modyrts said:
Im not sure awhether or not it has been debunked but it is a possibility.

And i can understand that.

"Each to thsir own"


However im just trying to get people to stop bashing on clones. Sure they not as great as originals but not all are bad.
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It is in no way even a slight possibility...like none, nothing, zero, Fall, aZiko, Nul.
 
Just as a last and final thought because it's kinda driving me insane:

It is - To each their own - all this swapping around crap must be stopped!
 
Steyn777 said:
Just as a last and final thought because it's kinda driving me insane:

It is - To each their own - all this swapping around crap must be stopped!
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"Swapping around crap"?
 
Modyrts said:
Scientific proof to back up your analogy?
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Maybe this will help because it kinda works in the same way:

To think that someone that drives pass a Mine Shaft everyday, runs the same risk of picking up phthisis than a miner working 6 days a week, 8 hours a day underground is about the same level of thinking that went into the theory of popcorn lung in vapers.
 
Steyn777 said:
I must provide proof of something that has never happened....think you got this swapped around as well.
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You said there is no possibility for it to occur? Im asking in what do you base this? Why do you say this will never happen if an ingredient which causes popcorn lung is present inside ejuice
 
Modyrts said:
You said there is no possibility for it to occur? Im asking in what do you base this? Why do you say this will never happen if an ingredient which causes popcorn lung is present inside ejuice
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Simply because of the VAST quantities of the chemical needed to cause popcorn lung is nowhere near high enough in an ecig. Not even close.
 
Steyn777 said:
Maybe this will help because it kinda works in the same way:

To think that someone that drives pass a Mine Shaft everyday, runs the same risk of picking up phthisis than a miner working 6 days a week, 8 hours a day underground is about the same level of thinking that went into the theory of popcorn lung in vapers.
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Baring in mind some people
Rob Fisher said:
Simply because of the VAST quantities of the chemical needed to cause popcorn lung is nowhere near high enough in an ecig. Not even close.
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Pretty sure they said the same thing about the popcorn
 
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