Here's to Dolly, to clone or not to clone
- Thread starter Daniel
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Yes cloners has stuffed up the market because they are stinking thieves... won't argue that fact.
But the first run of authentic Krytens sold out in 24 hours and he made 10,000 units! Not to be sneezed at!
A while back I went into my local b&m to take a look at a mage rta. It felt cheap and lose, like it was made from plastic and not put together too well. I wasn't impressed and thought what a pity as I wanted to buy it.
When I commented to the guy in the shop he realized he'd given me the clone version. Needless to say that when he gave me the real deal it felt solid and smooth.
When I bought my first rda I went cheap and got a kennedy clone. It added a metallic taste to my vape and I was almost put off RDAs altogether. I compare that experience to any of the authentic RDAs I use now and to me there's no comparison.
It's like a gourmet burger vs McDonald's. You're eating a burger but there's a vast difference in what you're getting from the experience.
I've never bought a clone since.
When I commented to the guy in the shop he realized he'd given me the clone version. Needless to say that when he gave me the real deal it felt solid and smooth.
When I bought my first rda I went cheap and got a kennedy clone. It added a metallic taste to my vape and I was almost put off RDAs altogether. I compare that experience to any of the authentic RDAs I use now and to me there's no comparison.
It's like a gourmet burger vs McDonald's. You're eating a burger but there's a vast difference in what you're getting from the experience.
I've never bought a clone since.
Don't get petty now I merely posed the question.....@Daniel, i think you are paying too much for your batteries. At R200 a battery why not consider clone batteries at R10 from your local China city?
I don't have much of a problem with that because:
1) DIYers who clone commercial juices seldom market it and profit from it. They do it for the challenge, not for money.
2) Even if others take and make the recipe, they are again unlikely to be customers of the original, and
3) Clones are almost impossible to get right, even Wayne freely admits he won't expect to get closer than 80-90%. And that last 10-20% is generally what makes the juice. Wayne has made several attempts at Duchess, he tells you that they're bangin' recipes and they undoubtedly are. But they ain't Duchess.
I have made some DIY juices which I assume from their names are clones of commercial juices, such as Sucker Punch Clone. What is Sucker Punch and who made it? I have no idea. One thing is certain - whoever made Sucker Punch never lost a sale to me from me making the DIY clone because I have no interest in the original. Nor even in the clone, come to think of it. I made it once and have passed it over since.
There are doubtless some DIYers who now make decent clones and have stopped buying the original, thus resulting in lost sales for the manufacturer. But I'd imagine it's a very small proportion of overall sales. It doesn't apply at all to me. The only commercial juices I vaped before starting DIY were VaporFi juices, simple single flavours like Watermelon or Strawberry. I have no interest in cloning those, and I don't have experience of much else. So local juice makers can rest easy that I'm not going to clone their juices because, well, I haven't the first clue what any of them even taste like.
And that proves my point, discerned vapers will buy authentics....
I try not buy into the 'hype' so if a cloned product presents itself and IF it is a 1:1 clone why not try that out first?
All the makers are in it to make money what irks me is why charge the 'hyped' prices?
I've been in the knife community for some time now and nothing gets my panties in a twist like cloned knives of a really good maker. But no offense its just not the same level. It's so much easier to clone a cylindrical shape....
Do the authentic mod makers lose from clones being produced? No in fact they probably benefit from it..... P
Have you ever tried machining a deck on a milling machine before....?
I don't think clones are killing the HE market, as far as I can see the vast majority (obviously there are exceptions) of people who buy clones, would never want to or afford to pay the premium of an authentic. The guys who dabble in the HE market still spend their cash on the authentic product, so business as usual. As @Rob Fisher mentioned, the Kryton authentic sold out 10 000 units in 24 hours, I reckon just as many clones will sell, and the buyers would never have bought an authentic any way.
I agree it is blatant IP theft and probably morally wrong (could argue most have no issue ripping TV shows/ movies / music off the internet for free), but I think we over estimate the impact clones have on the authentic manufacturers's sales. And it gives people who would not have been able to afford it a taste of what the authentic is like, even if the experience is not 1:1.
Also some clones are apparently made of superior materials to the authentic, OL16 comes to mind.
Might not be a popular opinion, but I enjoy and will continue to enjoy well made clones of gear I would never have had the experience of using before. Uncle @Rob Fisher is sure to make up for any lost revenue.
I agree it is blatant IP theft and probably morally wrong (could argue most have no issue ripping TV shows/ movies / music off the internet for free), but I think we over estimate the impact clones have on the authentic manufacturers's sales. And it gives people who would not have been able to afford it a taste of what the authentic is like, even if the experience is not 1:1.
Also some clones are apparently made of superior materials to the authentic, OL16 comes to mind.
Might not be a popular opinion, but I enjoy and will continue to enjoy well made clones of gear I would never have had the experience of using before. Uncle @Rob Fisher is sure to make up for any lost revenue.
I think it is important to consider there are three general levels. HE, authentic and clones. I will never pay R1000+ for an rda. To me it is not worth the cost. I will however pay R500 for Chinese authentics like the troll. To me the value to cost is right. While clones may be inferior quality they afford me the opportunity to play with other designs that would be out of my reach. I will get $5 worth of value out of a goon clone I have coming I'm not sure I'd get 20 times that.
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If cloners are branded as nothing more than thieves of IP, another thing to keep in mind is the partial validity of the argument that not only is "the receiver as guilty as the stealer" (although I prefer to buy authentics, I have bought good quality clones and will most likely do so again if I find the price / availability of an authentic prohibitive - so I was and will probably remain guilty), but also that the "dealer is as guilty as the stealer". A number of high profile supporting vendors on this forum, respected by most members, stock a variety of clone items. If the manufacturers are branded as highly unethical, then surely those vendors who support the continuation of their activities should be subjected to the same standards? (to make it clear, personally I do NOT have any problem with vendors offering this option and in my estimation the general ethical standards of the vaping industry - bar one big name - in South Africa are of the highest in any industry. I am simply pointing to consistent reasoning)
I generally prefer to purchase an authentic item in order to support the original designers of an item and also (more selfishly) simply to be assured of the quality control of the product that I buy. However, not only are some authentic products financially out of reach of the likes of me - but with the rise of the high end scene it seems that some items are only available to those with the consistent financial means, connections, and time / devoted passion to have timeous access to the people and groups that offer these products. An example would be where the Narda RDA seemed to be simply unavailable (except for those willing to pay vastly inflated prices to that of even the original price) or even the abovementioned first (10 000) run of Krytens selling out within a day. In such cases, where the price and desirability of an item seems to be based on the very fact of it's exclusivity (and if a company has not taken legal measures to prohibit the cloning of their item - which mostly does not seem to be the case), I cannot see how making good quality clones (yes - they won't be as good as the authentic - but will offer some idea of the vaping experience) available to the general public can be harmful to the designing company or to consumers. In cases, which I have also seen, of very reasonably priced and commonly available items being cloned - this argument does become somewhat less valid (it's also interesting to keep in mind that the companies manufacturing some of these products - such as Wotofo - began largely as cloning manufacturers; most likely enabling them to build up their reputation and financial means to become what they are now).
The general argument that I have seen justifying the price of items in the high end scene seems to be that of supply and demand. If this argument is valid (once again, barring where legal prohibition has been established), the same would ring true for that of cheaper clones. In my humble opinion, a good quality vape (granted - we don't absolutely need clones to offer this. Reasonably priced and widely available good quality authentic options are also on offer) should be available for 'the masses', whilst the industry should of course provide the option of 'the best of the best' for those who can afford it and who wish to spend their available funds in such a way.
I generally prefer to purchase an authentic item in order to support the original designers of an item and also (more selfishly) simply to be assured of the quality control of the product that I buy. However, not only are some authentic products financially out of reach of the likes of me - but with the rise of the high end scene it seems that some items are only available to those with the consistent financial means, connections, and time / devoted passion to have timeous access to the people and groups that offer these products. An example would be where the Narda RDA seemed to be simply unavailable (except for those willing to pay vastly inflated prices to that of even the original price) or even the abovementioned first (10 000) run of Krytens selling out within a day. In such cases, where the price and desirability of an item seems to be based on the very fact of it's exclusivity (and if a company has not taken legal measures to prohibit the cloning of their item - which mostly does not seem to be the case), I cannot see how making good quality clones (yes - they won't be as good as the authentic - but will offer some idea of the vaping experience) available to the general public can be harmful to the designing company or to consumers. In cases, which I have also seen, of very reasonably priced and commonly available items being cloned - this argument does become somewhat less valid (it's also interesting to keep in mind that the companies manufacturing some of these products - such as Wotofo - began largely as cloning manufacturers; most likely enabling them to build up their reputation and financial means to become what they are now).
The general argument that I have seen justifying the price of items in the high end scene seems to be that of supply and demand. If this argument is valid (once again, barring where legal prohibition has been established), the same would ring true for that of cheaper clones. In my humble opinion, a good quality vape (granted - we don't absolutely need clones to offer this. Reasonably priced and widely available good quality authentic options are also on offer) should be available for 'the masses', whilst the industry should of course provide the option of 'the best of the best' for those who can afford it and who wish to spend their available funds in such a way.
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Huh?Tell me more? where and when lol I have three authentics' and have never seen the clone up close except pictures but I'd still love to know how you came to that idea.
Edit: @Effjh I'm removing my 'disagree' rating on your comment because I actually agree on most of what you said but whom ever led you to believe that the clone O16 is superior in anyway over the authentic is sorely misguided and doesn't know what the word superior means lol
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Is there any vaping gear that has been patented? No one is really inventing anything new, just a variation of an existing theme. So even high end gear is a modified copy of an existing idea. Clones allow all to play with stuff that would be otherwise unaffordable however with a quality compromise.
You get what you pay for, and at least we can all get something we can afford. The cloners are very very bad boys n girls,
You get what you pay for, and at least we can all get something we can afford. The cloners are very very bad boys n girls,
IMO, the cloned hardware market exists and continues to exist because majority of "high performance" vape gear is horribly overpriced.
Consider these "Custom built PWM box mods" (etc.) being sold for R2.5K+... So many of us have poeped together boxes like these (using quality components) and it costed around R800 buying non-bulk parts. Cosmetics would cost maybe another R150 at most. Now imagine the guys building these boxes in bulk, buying components in bulk, anodizing (or whatever process of adding cosmetics) in bulk.
Consider tube mechs, like the Petri - sold for R2k as well, marketed with a silly gimmick of having gold plated screw threads. It makes absolutely no sense because the rest of the thing is alluminium and gold is the worse material you could have on your threads because its very mallable. R2K for a milled piece of allumium and gimmick performance enhancing.
An authentic Velocity (V1) costed around $110... for an atty... $110 - excluding shipping into SA... no one could explain to me back then WHY it was so expensive besides for "oh you know, it has this revolutionary build deck". A clone (a really good clone in fact), costed me $12 - I still have it, it still works absolutely brilliantly, looks amazing, feels amazing (quality wise), original post screws, original 510 pin, original insulators - absolutely nothing wrong with it, and its been over a year.
These costs exists because people are buying it at these costs. HE (or UC [uniquely crafted] as I call it) is a completely different ball game, but still way too overpriced IMO. Sorry to be frank, but yes, consumers can put a price on someones craftmanship.
I feel that theres so much exploitation in this young and vastly ignorant market (we have had the juice discussion already - but it puts the cherry on the cake).
--END RANT--
Consider these "Custom built PWM box mods" (etc.) being sold for R2.5K+... So many of us have poeped together boxes like these (using quality components) and it costed around R800 buying non-bulk parts. Cosmetics would cost maybe another R150 at most. Now imagine the guys building these boxes in bulk, buying components in bulk, anodizing (or whatever process of adding cosmetics) in bulk.
Consider tube mechs, like the Petri - sold for R2k as well, marketed with a silly gimmick of having gold plated screw threads. It makes absolutely no sense because the rest of the thing is alluminium and gold is the worse material you could have on your threads because its very mallable. R2K for a milled piece of allumium and gimmick performance enhancing.
An authentic Velocity (V1) costed around $110... for an atty... $110 - excluding shipping into SA... no one could explain to me back then WHY it was so expensive besides for "oh you know, it has this revolutionary build deck". A clone (a really good clone in fact), costed me $12 - I still have it, it still works absolutely brilliantly, looks amazing, feels amazing (quality wise), original post screws, original 510 pin, original insulators - absolutely nothing wrong with it, and its been over a year.
These costs exists because people are buying it at these costs. HE (or UC [uniquely crafted] as I call it) is a completely different ball game, but still way too overpriced IMO. Sorry to be frank, but yes, consumers can put a price on someones craftmanship.
I feel that theres so much exploitation in this young and vastly ignorant market (we have had the juice discussion already - but it puts the cherry on the cake).
--END RANT--
I'm not trying to be petty.
I'm just hilighting the fact that people are willing to use certain clone gear but not other clone gear, in a humorous manner.
The fact that I am not willing to use clones and would rather wait 3 months saving for an authentic atty is frankly the same for batteries.
In a society where instant gratification is the norm, a lot of anger and resentment appears when members of that society can't get what they want.
Undoubtedly, clones have a place but the general trend is to rationalise why a clone is better than an authentic and I think this argument is illogical.
Also people claiming a R500 mod performs just as well as a R3000 or R7000 mod is illogical.
Sure if you can test both etc then the argument takes some systematic approach and can be based on merit and not someone's opinion on how much a mod should cost.
Luckily everyone has their own opinion , it's what makes this community great
I think the arguments posed are very logical , the same materials are used (on the proper clones , not the churned out shyte) a tube mech is a piece of metal tube , the contacts is what makes it hit hard etc IMO so use good FD parts and you good to go.....
If you want to pay R3k for a tube mech then good on you , I think it's illogical
Speaking of FD, I have newer received a BF 510 that did not leak.Luckily everyone has their own opinion , it's what makes this community great
I think the arguments posed are very logical , the same materials are used (on the proper clones , not the churned out shyte) a tube mech is a piece of metal tube , the contacts is what makes it hit hard etc IMO so use good FD parts and you good to go.....
If you want to pay R3k for a tube mech then good on you , I think it's illogical
I think it slightly inappropriate to make fun of the way people want to spend their money. If you dont want to buy a 3k mech thats your business but nothing illogical about how i want to spend my cash.
Perhaps you think its not prudent or wasteful. Your opinion.
Also, who is being petty now
A tube mech is the simplest of artifacts and yet one of the most expensive things you can buy. Here I can totally understand why someone would rather have a clone over an authentic. What people are paying for is the cosmetic aspect and the name brand. Beyond dodgy threading or a crap button there is little to distinguish between a clone vs authentic performance wise. All a tube mech has to do is hold a battery and conduct electricity, everything else is just bells and whistles.
I think this whole auth vs clone is just nonsense to be honest.
A cloner will always try get it as close as possible to a authentic but it will never be a authentic.
This principal is in our everday lives and all comes down to are you willing to spend the money on it and thats all this argument or opinions really about.
Why dont we go to the chinease and buy a fake Nike shirt for R100 and a authentic is R400 ?
Why didnt we buy those crappy pall mall cigs instead of Marlbro, Peter S etc...
Cause at the end of day authentic is always King.
A cloner will always try get it as close as possible to a authentic but it will never be a authentic.
This principal is in our everday lives and all comes down to are you willing to spend the money on it and thats all this argument or opinions really about.
Why dont we go to the chinease and buy a fake Nike shirt for R100 and a authentic is R400 ?
Why didnt we buy those crappy pall mall cigs instead of Marlbro, Peter S etc...
Cause at the end of day authentic is always King.
Before we get told its only our opinion, I have actually tested this theory with a couple of tube mechs. It was shortly after I asked about the Petri tube mech and its "amazing" gold threads. I used my Clone SMPL (Epic Clone) as a control device which I paid about R100 for. Tested the Authentic Limitless and Authentic Wotofo (Phantom I think it was called), and some unbranded thing a friend of mine got in a bundle somewhere. The Voltage and Resistance difference was so negligable that the voltmeter couldnt read it (it jumped a little between 4.16 and 4.17V meaning the difference was in the 3rd decimal place).
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Not true ........ I definitely bat my eyelids but it is only because I have my own ADV recipes.
It is in my nature to try and be original.
I defo will never vape someone else's and I think any respectable DIY member should not either.
If you are a beginner and are still finding your feet then by all means.
I understand that clone recipes are made available to try and it is not the real deal although very close in some instances. I realise how much work goes into coming up with a great juice and the owner has and deserves the right to capitalise on that since he/she earned it.
I decided to share my recipes and hence have no problem when someone makes and vapes it.
Just my opinion guys.
Agree @KZOR , although i believe there is nothing wrong with making a clone juice for personal use.
But the minute one starts cloning and selling juice at a mark up to Friends and friends of friends that i think is not right.
If you make it for a buddy and charge him your cost price which is around R1 a ml using 2mg nic and 10% flavouring than that is fine too cause some mates do need a helping hand sometimes because of cost reasons.
Most juice makers are highly chuffed if someone tries to clone/interpret a juice of theirs. I see that often on other forums.
For me it was far more of an effort to clone/interpret Bowden's Mate than to make an original.
For me it was far more of an effort to clone/interpret Bowden's Mate than to make an original.
Tell me more? where and when lol I have three authentics' and have never seen the clone up close except pictures but I'd still love to know how you came to that idea.
Edit: @Effjh I'm removing my 'disagree' rating on your comment because I actually agree on most of what you said but whom ever led you to believe that the clone O16 is superior in anyway over the authentic is sorely misguided and doesn't know what the word superior means lol
Hi @DoubleD,
I don't mind a 'disagree' rating, we can't all agree, but I took it you re-read my statement where I said "apparently". It is something I caught on another forum and not entirely my view as I'm no SS expert, but it does seem to be valid in a sense.
So I'll tell you more. According to the post, and it looks to be accurate, the Authentic OL16 is made from 304 Stainless Steel. The clone is made from 316 Stainless Steel.
The difference: http://www.reliance-foundry.com/blog/304-vs-316-stainless-steel#gref
"It has almost the same physical and mechanical properties as 304 stainless steel and contains a similar material make-up. The difference is that 316 stainless steel incorporates about 2 to 3 percent molybdenum, which increases corrosion resistance—particularly against chlorides and other industrial solvents."
"The difference between 304 and 316 stainless steel is the presence of molybdenum, which provides a much higher degree of corrosion resistance -"
Which seems to indicate 316 SS could be considered a superior material to 304 SS.
I thought it's interesting since it is something that is often brought up when criticising clones ("inferior materials are used"). Now I'll agree the overall quality of machining on the clone is inferior to the authentic, but this does seem to indicate that the clone is superior in at least one way to the authentic.
Hi @DoubleD,
I don't mind a 'disagree' rating, we can't all agree, but I took it you re-read my statement where I said "apparently". It is something I caught on another forum and not entirely my view as I'm no SS expert, but it does seem to be valid in a sense.
So I'll tell you more. According to the post, and it looks to be accurate, the Authentic OL16 is made from 304 Stainless Steel. The clone is made from 316 Stainless Steel.
The difference: http://www.reliance-foundry.com/blog/304-vs-316-stainless-steel#gref
"It has almost the same physical and mechanical properties as 304 stainless steel and contains a similar material make-up. The difference is that 316 stainless steel incorporates about 2 to 3 percent molybdenum, which increases corrosion resistance—particularly against chlorides and other industrial solvents."
"The difference between 304 and 316 stainless steel is the presence of molybdenum, which provides a much higher degree of corrosion resistance -"
Which seems to indicate 316 SS could be considered a superior material to 304 SS.
I thought it's interesting since it is something that is often brought up when criticising clones ("inferior materials are used"). Now I'll agree the overall quality of machining on the clone is inferior to the authentic, but this does seem to indicate that the clone is superior in at least one way to the authentic.
I'm well aware of the differences of 316 and 304 but how does one know the clone is made out 316 a part from be told by FT, 3fvape , ect?
Or are we assuming china uses the best materials when making clones
I'm well aware of the differences of 316 and 304 but how does one know the clone is made out 316 a part from be told by FT, 3fvape , ect?
Or are we assuming china uses the best materials when making clones
On fastech they say made from 316 but who knows if thats true or not.
Some clones say 1:1 and they sure as hell are not
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