Premium Juice Prices In Perspective

[Yash]

You cant use tests carried out eating something to judge whether something is safe to vape.

At this point in time, the only thing that matters to me is that I'm off cigarettes and the related health issues that come with them. No one ever said that vaping is completely safe, but it's sure safer than smoking.

And until proper clinical tests have proven that vaping is indeed dangerous, I will continue to do so because it's my choice.

The saddest things are that cigarettes are still freely available even with the proven health risks and the government makes so much money off them.

It's time people started to focus on more pressing issues in life, like exhaust emissions from combustion engines and the rising levels of CO2 in the atmosphere and leave people that choose to vape and the 'premium' juice makers alone.

 

[Paul]

Then I must be honest, I have absolutely no idea what relevance that link is in your post.

We must, as you yourself have said, compare apples with apples.

A list of food additives, based on your own line of argument, is not even worth considering since we are vaping it, yet you posted it in support of your argument.

Exactly, liquid need to be tested for suitability to vape not eat. But depending on whether the additive is toxic to the human body as a whole or if it interferes with the digestive system only, will give you a good indication by looking at the list whether it is safe to vape.

My argument is that liquid suppliers do not have expertise, facilities or will to test whether something is safe or not and as there are no goverment tests, the public is left unprotected.

 

[Paul]

At this point in time, the only thing that matters to me is that I'm off cigarettes and the related health issues that come with them. No one ever said that vaping is completely safe, but it's sure safer than smoking.

And until proper clinical tests have proven that vaping is indeed dangerous, I will continue to do so because it's my choice.

The saddest things are that cigarettes are still freely available even with the proven health risks and the government makes so much money off them.

It's time people started to focus on more pressing issues in life, like exhaust emissions from combustion engines and the rising levels of CO2 in the atmosphere and leave people that choose to vape and the 'premium' juice makers alone.

You can only make a qualified choice if you have all the information. Without legislation you will not know what you are choosing and nothing will legally compel the maker to tell you.

 

[Yash]

The thing we are missing here is that even though the government has tested all the 'dangerous additives' on that list, it hasn't stopped them from still using them!

As long as they are making money from it, it doesn't look like they care about 'protecting' the public.

So lets skip forward, the testing happens and there are substances that are deemed dangerous in juices.

Then what? The government regulates the manufacture but do you really think they will still not use the substances? I think the answer to that is quite obvious.

Why spend money making safer alternative substances when you can make cheaper but dangerous ones?

In the end, it's all about the money.

Which brings us back to the recurring theme in your posts @Paul, how much money 'premium' juice manufacturers are making here in SA.

 

[RevnLucky7]

It's not whether you do your homework or not, it's whether the customer is able to establish that you have done your homework which involves some sort of standards and testing. If the cost of premium is 6 times the average, then there are always going to be people prepared to add whatever they can legally or illegally add to make it taste like premium.

Legislation is coming and vapers should welcome it, we will be able to compare apples with apples when choosing products.

You're all over the place. I'm having a hard time staying on point with you. You've just contradicted your argument and I really think you're grasping at straws. You're also generalizing, picking up a whole of feathers trying to convince us it's a duck.

While at first your concerns seemed to be the pricing of premiums liquids you also dismissed the fact that there is such a thing.

Now you're concerned that some suppliers might be adding whatever they can add to make it taste like premium in an effort to achieve the same retail price? So you're acknowledging premium brands? I was under the impression judging by your first posts that there was no such thing. And you're fearfull of sub par brands introducing ingredients that might be harmful in an attempt to milk you for money?

Premium brands in SA are selling for R250-R400 currently. All locally produced liquids are at R120-R150. Who's commiting this fraud you write of?

And if you're upset now, what do you think is going to happen once e-Liquid becomes fully regulated? You'll be buying Liqua products at tripple the rate they sell for now, and the guys who actually make better liquids as small business entities will not be able to meet the financial requirements to produce liquids under the requirements set by the powers that be, as labs and high tech will probably be involved, will be forced out of the picture. A sad day for everyone. You'll be buying liquids you prefer to vape on the street corner with crack whores and drug dealers at five times the price than what you do now even if they met all the implemented requirements.



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[PeterHarris]

this thread is stupid - i like to vape delicious flavours. FULL STOP!

 

[devdev]

 

[Tom]

calling for strict regulation? tobacco/pharma will be smiling again...all the way to the bank! What are we? little children who need to be guided strictly?

who would be doing the regulation in SA? the government? they should be still looking at their other 999 obstacles....those are far more harmful then a possible risk by vaping.

 

[Paul]

The thing we are missing here is that even though the government has tested all the 'dangerous additives' on that list, it hasn't stopped them from still using them!
.

Yes, which is how it should be, they shouldn't be telling us what we can and cant put in our bodies, but they should be making sure that we know what exactly what it is and if there are any known risks.

 

[PeterHarris]

are u a​

 

[devdev]

I think I possibly finally see what @Paul is on about, although it has taken a while to get there.

Let's say your BMW needs new brake pads and discs. You go to BMW and they say no problem, but it will cost R15k. You get another quote from Crankshaft Visagie's Motoring Emporium. Crankshaft undertakes to do the work personally, for a cost of R 7500, but says it is an easy job, and if you want, he can sell you the spares to do the work yourself for R 3500, because he is a bit busy at the moment.

You have three options:

1. Premium price (Guaranteed parts, genuine BMW, qualified technician)
2. Crankshaft Visagie (Comes with his 'workmanship' guarantee, but nothing on the parts. He wants you to trust him since must know what he is doing if he owns a motoring business)
3. DIY Option (No guarantee, no qualifications so no assurances that it is correct, assumes that your time is worthless)

So there are three different prices, offering 3 different kinds of customer experience, and three different after market options. Each customer will decide which experience best suits their needs.

It would seem that Paul:

- dislikes BMW for claiming that the work they do is premium, and more so for the price being at a premium and the upper end of the market.

- does not like Crankshaft Visagie, because he is, after all, a backyard mechanic and other than running a motoring business there is nothing which says his services or the parts he uses are actually any good.

- finds the price of the DIY option attractive, and even explored buying the parts on the internet and importing them, but he luckily found another motor service centre, who were able to sell and fit the parts at R4000, a slight premium above the DIY option.

Although I must say it seems as though after having chosen that option, Paul would now like to 'educate' the market, motivated to do so by some unknown reason.

I also see that Paul wishes government to compel premium manufacturers to disclose the contents of their products - I agree this would not be a bad thing. I think what is really annoying him is that BMW/Premium juice suppliers are not actually able to prove that their product is manufactured from top quality ingredients, sourced responsibly, and designed and manufactured by experienced and qualified individuals.

(The analogy DOES NOT apply to local vendors, and in no way am I implying any form of shoddy quality by any of the vendors on the forum. I am also not implying they are backyard operators, or lacking in experience, or that they have not done extensive research)

 

[Paul]

You're all over the place. I'm having a hard time staying on point with you. You've just contradicted your argument and I really think you're grasping at straws. You're also generalizing, picking up a whole of feathers trying to convince us it's a duck.

While at first your concerns seemed to be the pricing of premiums liquids you also dismissed the fact that there is such a thing.

Now you're concerned that some suppliers might be adding whatever they can add to make it taste like premium in an effort to achieve the same retail price? So you're acknowledging premium brands? I was under the impression judging by your first posts that there was no such thing. And you're fearfull of sub par brands introducing ingredients that might be harmful in an attempt to milk you for money?

Premium brands in SA are selling for R250-R400 currently. All locally produced liquids are at R120-R150. Who's commiting this fraud you write of?

And if you're upset now, what do you think is going to happen once e-Liquid becomes fully regulated? You'll be buying Liqua products at tripple the rate they sell for now, and the guys who actually make better liquids as small business entities will not be able to meet the financial requirements to produce liquids under the requirements set by the powers that be, as labs and high tech will probably be involved, will be forced out of the picture. A sad day for everyone. You'll be buying liquids you prefer to vape on the street corner with crack whores and drug dealers at five times the price than what you do now even if they met all the implemented requirements.



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1. The fact that I can buy from both international and local suppliers for only R20 for 10ml while as you say the vast majority of local suppliers charge between R120- R150 shows how much local suppliers are overcharging.

2. You say it is because the quality is better, but there are no standards of quality or tests so you cannot prove that to be true.

3. You say it is because the consumer can simply tell it tastes better, I say that could be because of flavour enhancers that are harmful or because of conformation bias.

No matter how confused you may be, I am sitting here vaping some excellent e-juice supplied by SkyBlue Vapours that cost only R20 for 10ml and as you cannot prove that any of the liquids that cost considerably more are any better, I would say that I am correct.

You need to show that the other local suppliers have a better quality or tasting product to prove me wrong.

Please do so.

 

[Yash]

@Paul, the reason I think your argument is flawed is because taste is extremely subjective. To you that may be excellent juice but to me it might be average. And in the same instance the juice that I think is excellent may not be your cup of tea.

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[steve]

Again DIY vs ready to vape. Not a fair comparison .

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[devdev]

Again DIY vs ready to vape. Not a fair comparison .

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Let's compare Rabbits with Jet Fighters... perfectly logical

 

[steve]

Im with Harris. Its all a wind up

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[devdev]

 

[Paul]

I think what is really annoying him is that BMW/Premium juice suppliers are not actually able to prove that their product is manufactured from top quality ingredients, sourced responsibly, and designed and manufactured by experienced and qualified individuals.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

It's also very unfair on the supplier who is supplying for a fair price.

 

[Gazzacpt]

I wasn't going to comment but here goes. I buy local, international and I diy.

I enjoy diy because I like to tinker and I sometimes come out with a winner. Still it costs me a fair bit as some times a batch is just unvapable. I stick to unflavoured and menthol mostly as a daily vape.

Local juice I have found a good few gems. VM4 and VM choc mint being 2 of my favorites made buy a awesome guy a vaper himself who vapes the juice he produces it costs me R120 for 30ml and its a bargain of note I would happily pay more for those if I had to.

Internationally there are just to many. Nicoticket is my favorite so far and their juice is really on a different level that costs me about R200 per 30ml and is well worth it.

Now after trying diy myself and spending a fair bit on different concentrates and raw materials I have a new appreciation of what it takes to create a great juice. These folks work hard and keeping it up is no joke. I don't think I am being ripped off.

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[Yash]

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

It's also very unfair on the supplier who is supplying for a fair price.

I think you should tackle Twisp then, their prices are straight daylight robbery.

 

[Alex]

This reminds me of the story I heard about a Native American Trading Store somewhere in the Wild West. So this tourist couple are admiring all the wooden carvings on display, now the old store owner notices the husbands confused look, and moves over to enquire.

"Can I be of any assistance" asks the store owner, "Well, We really like the large Buffalo carving, but I can't understand why the one on the left is only $120, and the one right next to it is going for $500, they look exactly the same to me." replied the tourist. "Well it's like this" answered the trader, "They are the same, but the reason we have a more expensive one, is simply because some people like the $150 carving, and some prefer the one for $500."

 

[Paul]

Well you could prove me wrong.

Have blind taste trails.

20 different juices from cheapest to the most expensive. In un- branded containers.

100 x vapers asked to rate.

100 x smokers who dont vape ask to rate

Could be fun, everyone could send a sample juice to a single location, then the juice is divided up and sent to the participants who fill in an online form.

Numbers on containers different for each participant so no confering online.

 

[Yash]

There's really no need for that, you have your opinions on what you prefer to vape, as do I. You are happy with your DIY R20 for 10ml and I'm happy with my ready to vape R120 for 30ml Vapour Mountain juices. I think we've all had our fair share atop the soap box. Each to his own now and one last thing left to do, enjoy the Vape!

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[RevnLucky7]

1. The fact that I can buy from both international and local suppliers for only R20 for 10ml while as you say the vast majority of local suppliers charge between R120- R150 shows how much local suppliers are overcharging.
2. You say it is because the quality is better, but there are no standards of quality or tests so you cannot prove that to be true.
3. You say it is because the consumer can simply tell it tastes better, I say that could be because of flavour enhancers that are harmful or because of conformation bias.
No matter how confused you may be, I am sitting here vaping some excellent e-juice supplied by SkyBlue Vapours that cost only R20 for 10ml and as you cannot prove that any of the liquids that cost considerably more are any better, I would say that I am correct.
You need to show that the other local suppliers have a better quality or tasting product to prove me wrong.
Please do so.

ROFL...

I used to love Snow Queen Vodka. Based on what you just wrote I might as well have stuck with Russian Bear, since my taste buds must be flawed. The distillation methods and ingredients obviously have no impact on quality?

I'll write this again and please take note of this:
MANY LIQUID COMPANIES OUT THERE ARE USING UNIQUE EXTRACTION METHODS AND ADVANCED STEEPING PROCCESSES to acquire the taste they present you with in their product. The fact that you do not know this and still compare DIY products to these guys with such arrogance really tells a story about your perspective and knowledge on this topic and it's becoming rather frustrating because you really don't know. Some of the guys involved in this debate are very knowledgeable on the topic and writing them off because of conformation bias... Really? A little bigoted, don't you think?

And how can you use the fact that flavour enhancers are harmful to justify your argument when you just argued there's no way of knowing. And yes, I can say: because the consumer says it tastes better, because I've never really bought e-liquid based on how fast it removes rust from my car.

The most important thing here is that you are happy with what you are vaping. I've been around the vape scene for quite some time and I too have tried many liquids from various origins. My company started based on the gap that I personally found in between some brands.

I really wish I could show you what it takes to produce 1000 bottles of something like Castle Long Reserve from scratch. You might have a new opinion on paying R20 for 10ml's. I just don't understand how you are comparing the two.

 

[Paul]

Well if there are no government tests to help vapers choose the best quality then vapers should conduct their own tests and publish the results. It would help newbies get the best value for money and companies that produce great juice would prosper.