Premium Juice Prices In Perspective
- Thread starter Alex
- Start date
I don't demand tests on every single bottle of wine or vodka I sample before I buy it. I know what I'm after based on my experience with the products and I purchase based on what I think is a quality finished product. I'm not surprised when my selections come with a price tag either because I knew they would based on what I was tasting.
I don't stock the lines that I do because they have pretty labels on them. I'm very familiar with the product, its production phases and in some instances I have met the creators personally. They're not some unknown brand sourced from somewhere in an effort to make a quick buck and this is why I defend them in this debate.
Comparing DIY to them really is ridiculous and I still do want to know which products you are using as a reference to make your claims?
I suggest scientific blind taste trails to prove whose quality is best, you shout, I must this, I must that....and you suggest I am a bigot.
The problem I have with your argument is you are making an appeal to authority with talk of advanced this and advanced that...but it is wrapped up in a, not even concealed, personal attack. I therefore have to assume your argument is invalid as someone genuinely involved in the scientific community would not make such a mistake.
Paul were you a boxer and BB smoker by any chance?
Ummm... I haven't shouted anything. I typed most of it and I did not demand anything from you either. You MUST not do anything other than enjoy your vape!
You brought points to the tabel I did not agree with and this is a forum after all. My debate is 100% aimed at the points you make in your posts, not at you personally.
You blamed many of our responses on conformation bias... I do not take it personnaly that you consider me closed minded. My response was simply that your statement displayed abstinate belief in the superiority of your own opinions when you so easily dismiss the opinions of pretty much everyone else who cared to offer an input in the thread. While you have some good points you don't answer many questions and contradict many of the things you write. It's as if you your ultimate goal is to really just kick up dust and this has been noted by others who can see that this is classic troll behaviour.
If you feel that this thread is personal I will gladly subtract myself from it, for I'm having a hard time following where you are going with it most of the time.
Hey @Paul don't you think you should test a few differant juices out first ? Do correct me if im wrong but from what I'm gathering you haven't ? I myself am far from a juice expert but I have done my own research. I've been vaping about two years. in this time I've tried many juice vendors from cheap to expensive from international to local to DIY and the list goes on. Therefore there is no need for me to now start doing blind taste trials. I'll just keep on with my research which is highly enjoyable and share my experiances on the forum when I think it can help someone else. There are many people much more dedicated than me who review every single juice they vape in detail so others can get a perspective, i find this highly commendable.
All the info is already here for the guys, new and old . I learn so much from this great forum every day.
I would respectfully throw your challenge back at you mate. Do some taste trials yourself, use the reviews on the forum as a basis of what to get and share your experiance as you go !
All the info is already here for the guys, new and old . I learn so much from this great forum every day.
I would respectfully throw your challenge back at you mate. Do some taste trials yourself, use the reviews on the forum as a basis of what to get and share your experiance as you go !
Like @Gazzacpt says I buy imported premium, local, local premium and have started DIY. I am happy to pay R250.00 for 30ml for premium, I'm happy to pay R120.00 - R180.00 for the local juices. I can make my DIY for a lot less than that. Vaping is fun, its a hobby. Nobody has a right to question or judge on how I spend the money I earn. As so many have said, I have a unique set of taste buds and I buy what tastes good.
Right now these eciggie forums around the world help us noobs & experienced vaper find these gems.
Right now these eciggie forums around the world help us noobs & experienced vaper find these gems.
A few have posted in this thread how they struggle to afford to buy quality juice.
That's not right.
I do not believe that mixing a few liquids, no matter how you well you make it sound like a scene from Harry Potter, can justify the prices being charged.
Deciding that because the customer was being charged x amount for previous product that you are some how entitled to charge x amount for new product, even though new product costs 1/100th of x is wrong.
Maybe we could crowd source an affordable quality juice, use blind taste trails to decide the taste. Crowd sourced and crowd participation in the making.
Okay so we're accepting that there's various tiers in liquids? If so I will play...
This is the way of our capatalistic society unfortunately. I too would like to own a Ferrari and I agree - the fact that I will never be able to is not right.
The justification of the prices alone aside, I tried to provide reasoning to the differences.
Simple layout:
A Simple DIY: Buy extract ingredients. Measure it off into a bottle. Vape
Five Pawns Reserve: All raw materials are bought and the flavors are then extracted. So while you might buy a Madagaskar Vanilla Bean flavoring that is most likely synthtic for R30 per 10ml, how much would aquiring some of these actual raw ingredients cost before you've even started the extraction proccess. Once all the flavors are extracted it is mixed and left to steep in Oak barrels for a period of time. Check the price on Oak barrels. I've tried various liquids steeped in Oak, mainly from House of Liquids and it has a taste that can not be duplicated using a simple DIY. This proccess ups the price and hereby we touch on justification.
Many of these companies all have their own little secrets and ways of doing things that sets them apart in a VERY competitive market. Not all of them! But many of them.
@ShaneW is working on something similar, although it's not trails. Just a chance for everyone to try a variety of stuff. I get many liquid samples in from American suppliers on a weekly basis and MANY of them have not made "my cut". There ARE suppliers out there who chase up prices with pretty marketing frills but they are easily weeded out very quickly purely based on taste. A mass produced DIY project is no different from a small one. But you can't generalize and assume they are all the same without having tried a variety.
And this was the only point I was ever trying to make.
Some of these guys have something quite unique and I respect the way that the production of liquid has evolved into something that is no longer ONLY a simple proccess.
A mass trail test can't work as taste is very subjective. This is a journey every vapor takes on his own and the decision on whether or not you are willing to spend more on a certain liquid is yours alone.
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I think maybe you miss the point. I vape diy unflavoured or menthol during the day for mindless vaping and for my nic intake. Then I have my treat juices or "premium" juices, those are for my enjoyment its like taking a break and having a really good coffee or lighting a good cigar. This is something I enjoy and I gladly pay for that enjoyment.
As to the blind tasting thing thats how I found most of my juice. A fellow vapor will go try this it will knock my socks off and I say hey whats that. Thats how I found Frenilla didn't know what I was tasting at the time but wanted to get that, after he told me what it was then I remember seeing reviews and hype about it and it was justified.
It took me 3 months to actually start tasting juice properly thats how long my tastebuds took to recover to that point. Before that juice was just juice. Now that I can taste properly and I know what good e liquid is all about its a whole new world the subtle flavours and complexities of a really good liquid is something else.
Anyway I hope someday you will come to appreciate it, if you don't you missing half the fun. I have seen some recipes for what may sound like a simple juice and there may be up to 8 different concentrates in it. Also these guys doing net juices its alot of work doing that extract. I've been at this diy thing for 6 months or more now and have not been able to create a really good complex juice yet. And by complex I mean a simple well balanced mix of 4 flavours. I've cracked 3 but still need to tweak the undertones and have to wait until steaped add something wait added to much wait try something else. It really is an art.
Here ends my participation in this thread
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I think maybe you miss the point. I vape diy unflavoured or menthol during the day for mindless vaping and for my nic intake. Then I have my treat juices or "premium" juices, those are for my enjoyment its like taking a break and having a really good coffee or lighting a good cigar. This is something I enjoy and I gladly pay for that enjoyment.
As to the blind tasting thing thats how I found most of my juice. A fellow vapor will go try this it will knock my socks off and I say hey whats that. Thats how I found Frenilla didn't know what I was tasting at the time but wanted to get that, after he told me what it was then I remember seeing reviews and hype about it and it was justified.
It took me 3 months to actually start tasting juice properly thats how long my tastebuds took to recover to that point. Before that juice was just juice. Now that I can taste properly and I know what good e liquid is all about its a whole new world the subtle flavours and complexities of a really good liquid is something else.
Anyway I hope someday you will come to appreciate it, if you don't you missing half the fun. I have seen some recipes for what may sound like a simple juice and there may be up to 8 different concentrates in it. Also these guys doing net juices its alot of work doing that extract. I've been at this diy thing for 6 months or more now and have not been able to create a really good complex juice yet. And by complex I mean a simple well balanced mix of 4 flavours. I've cracked 3 but still need to tweak the undertones and have to wait until steaped add something wait added to much wait try something else. It really is an art.
Here ends my participation in this thread
Sent from my GT-I9190 using Tapatalk
I'm bugging out too. Apologies if something I wrote seemed personal, I too like a good debate and I'm very passionate about liquids. I think this thread contains enough info and perspectives regarding the topic. Anything more would be beating a dead duck.
I hope some of it is useful. Like I wrote earlier. The most important thing is vaping what you like. One of my all time favorites is Dekang Peanut Butter. 99% of the people who tried it hate it. But who cares when I'm vaping it? Looking at it like that from a vendors perspective - there's no such thing as a flavor that won't sell. Question we have to ask ourselves is will it sell at the price point that we sell it for?
And as a consumer: Will you pay for a liquid what you did again after trying it? If the answer is yes, the price is justified.
There will most certainly be NONE of that around here
So I didn't go through the whole 6 pages and my small 2cents. I only vape DIY. I supply to my immediate family, even 'mastered' my own made version of 'Choc99' and another nameless one they like, which we all enjoy and there is not one part of me that sees me selling juice. Honestly, the R120 I feel compelled to sell it at after Vapour Mountain's great juices at said price (and since I am using their flavours) it is just not worth the effort.
I do think f I could slightly automate, it might be better but still not jump at the oportunity stuff, my family already have to beg me to make up for them. It is quite intensive to be 95% consistent oevr and over and over....
I do think f I could slightly automate, it might be better but still not jump at the oportunity stuff, my family already have to beg me to make up for them. It is quite intensive to be 95% consistent oevr and over and over....
Please share your recipes with Oupa's concetrates @Fickie, if you are happy to of course.
http://www.ecigssa.co.za/forums/diy-liquid/
yes..me too
Quite interesting reading this, and both sides of the arguement (?) carry some merit.
I'm a DIY vaper, mainly because I have simple tastes and can manage basic flavours easily. I also for some reason prefer Menthol in anything I vape, and it would defeat the object to add this to a premium e-juice
Comparing the cost of pre-made juices to the cost of the required components does produce a distorted picture. To use an analogy, it's a bit like making the same comparrison with a house - the cost difference is all in the doing.
I make for myself, my wife and a mate, and will mix at the most about 5 to 6 30ml bottles at one time, possibly every 2 to 3 weeks. I generally mix plain flavours that can be combined afterwards, except for my wife who likes Vanilla in her Menthol. I do this in my kitchen on a clean surface, and am careful not to contaminate one component with another. I add the Nic last, and wash whatever I use for this (including my hands) immediately afterwards. I then write the flavours and date on masking tape and stick it on the relevant bottles, and put them in the cupboard. Sorted.
Now imagine doing this on a commercial scale. Firstly, the kitchen would not do - a dedicated mixing room would be required (unless you don't mind an accidental bit of tomato sauce in your vape), Secondly, the equipment I have would not do either - I use 2 or 3 different size syringes to measure components, rinsing between uses. This would be totally impractical on a larger scale, and not sufficiently accurate. Thirdly, nicotene is extremely dangerous to handle, potentially lethal. With the small amounts I may accidently expose myself to, I'm sure the risk is low; when it comes to large quantites on a regular (daily?) basis, the risk is multiplied exponentially.
Lastly, consistency of the result. I mix 12% flavour in my berry juices, but so what if it ends up being 11.5%. I probably never get exact ratios as I am limited to the accuracy of my syringe (graduated in 0.25ml increments) and my precise eyeball. This doesn't worry me, but a discerning palate would tell the difference. This would become a huge issue with complex juices, with the outcome depending more on pure luck rather than skill.
I won't even touch on the marketing of the juices as I have no experience with this, but I imagine this adding another dimension of cost implications and other unknown issues.
I haven't tried a lot of pre-made juices (Hangseng, Liqua, Twisp), but have never had one that made a good impression (perhaps my taste buds are not that sophisticated, or have been compromised by decades of smoking). My simple berry/cherry/fruit flavours on the other hand, with a bit of VM Menthol, are great. And at a cost of around R1.00/ml affordable for me and my wife's consumption of ~12ml/day.
Are SoV's juices (as an example) overpriced? Simple answer really - are people buying them?
Whatever floats your boat - just keep on vaping
I'm a DIY vaper, mainly because I have simple tastes and can manage basic flavours easily. I also for some reason prefer Menthol in anything I vape, and it would defeat the object to add this to a premium e-juice
Comparing the cost of pre-made juices to the cost of the required components does produce a distorted picture. To use an analogy, it's a bit like making the same comparrison with a house - the cost difference is all in the doing.
I make for myself, my wife and a mate, and will mix at the most about 5 to 6 30ml bottles at one time, possibly every 2 to 3 weeks. I generally mix plain flavours that can be combined afterwards, except for my wife who likes Vanilla in her Menthol. I do this in my kitchen on a clean surface, and am careful not to contaminate one component with another. I add the Nic last, and wash whatever I use for this (including my hands) immediately afterwards. I then write the flavours and date on masking tape and stick it on the relevant bottles, and put them in the cupboard. Sorted.
Now imagine doing this on a commercial scale. Firstly, the kitchen would not do - a dedicated mixing room would be required (unless you don't mind an accidental bit of tomato sauce in your vape), Secondly, the equipment I have would not do either - I use 2 or 3 different size syringes to measure components, rinsing between uses. This would be totally impractical on a larger scale, and not sufficiently accurate. Thirdly, nicotene is extremely dangerous to handle, potentially lethal. With the small amounts I may accidently expose myself to, I'm sure the risk is low; when it comes to large quantites on a regular (daily?) basis, the risk is multiplied exponentially.
Lastly, consistency of the result. I mix 12% flavour in my berry juices, but so what if it ends up being 11.5%. I probably never get exact ratios as I am limited to the accuracy of my syringe (graduated in 0.25ml increments) and my precise eyeball. This doesn't worry me, but a discerning palate would tell the difference. This would become a huge issue with complex juices, with the outcome depending more on pure luck rather than skill.
I won't even touch on the marketing of the juices as I have no experience with this, but I imagine this adding another dimension of cost implications and other unknown issues.
I haven't tried a lot of pre-made juices (Hangseng, Liqua, Twisp), but have never had one that made a good impression (perhaps my taste buds are not that sophisticated, or have been compromised by decades of smoking). My simple berry/cherry/fruit flavours on the other hand, with a bit of VM Menthol, are great. And at a cost of around R1.00/ml affordable for me and my wife's consumption of ~12ml/day.
Are SoV's juices (as an example) overpriced? Simple answer really - are people buying them?
Whatever floats your boat - just keep on vaping
[QUOTE=" Thirdly, nicotene is extremely dangerous to handle, potentially lethal. With the small amounts I may accidently expose myself to, I'm sure the risk is low; when it comes to large quantites on a regular (daily?) basis, the risk is multiplied exponentially.
[/QUOTE]
no nicotine is not that dangerous to a grown adult human being. yes children and small pets, there are dangers but unless you're gonna be mixing with over 100 mg/ml nicotine people need to stop stressing. it is a toxic chemical yes but science boffins have shown us it's not as scary or dangerous, not even remotely so, as people think
[/QUOTE]
no nicotine is not that dangerous to a grown adult human being. yes children and small pets, there are dangers but unless you're gonna be mixing with over 100 mg/ml nicotine people need to stop stressing. it is a toxic chemical yes but science boffins have shown us it's not as scary or dangerous, not even remotely so, as people think
@denizenx : sure, that's probably true for most people, but it is also a carcinogen which adds to the risk of exposure.
A quick search produced the following two examples of expert opinion:
The risk is probably very low in the concentrations that are commonly used in most e-juices, but this risk is increased with continuous use, particularly if the the correct safety precautions are ignored.
To consider it not even remotely dangerous is perhaps unwise considering the amount of evidence that can be found that contradicts this. I would think that most e-juice manufacturers would treat it as a highly toxic substance, even if it isn't really as bad as that, because of the possible effects of continuous exposure over a period of time.
Nobody was concerned about butter flavouring in popcorn until workers started dying of Diacetyl-induced Bronchiolitis Obliterans, then it suddenly became an issue. Direct exposure to nicotene has never been much of a possibilty for the general public before vaping came along, so much is probably still to be learned.
It would be somewhat ironic to die of a nicotene overdose after giving up smoking for a healthier alternative.
A quick search produced the following two examples of expert opinion:
- Forbes: if I quote from the article: "Ingestion or skin exposure to small amounts of such solutions, ranging from one teaspoon to a tablespoon based on body weight and skin morphology, carries with it the potential for serious toxicity or even death."
- Wikipedia: similarly: "Spilling a high concentration of nicotine onto the skin can cause intoxication or even death, since nicotine readily passes into the bloodstream following dermal contact." The article also includes a passage on possible carcogenic affects of direct contact.
The risk is probably very low in the concentrations that are commonly used in most e-juices, but this risk is increased with continuous use, particularly if the the correct safety precautions are ignored.
To consider it not even remotely dangerous is perhaps unwise considering the amount of evidence that can be found that contradicts this. I would think that most e-juice manufacturers would treat it as a highly toxic substance, even if it isn't really as bad as that, because of the possible effects of continuous exposure over a period of time.
Nobody was concerned about butter flavouring in popcorn until workers started dying of Diacetyl-induced Bronchiolitis Obliterans, then it suddenly became an issue. Direct exposure to nicotene has never been much of a possibilty for the general public before vaping came along, so much is probably still to be learned.
It would be somewhat ironic to die of a nicotene overdose after giving up smoking for a healthier alternative.
popcorn lung scares the crap outa me for sure. i'm just much less scared of nicotine poising because here on the forum there has been several articles posted about it's relative non killyness but as you say, better safe than sorry
From what I have read nicotine in itself is not a carcinogen, but I agree that caution is in order when handling it, escpecially in quantity, which is your argument.
Me too! And yet depite the warnings about Acetoin possibly forming minute amounts of Diacetyl, flavours like Vanilla Custard remain enormously popular. Maybe the possible danger adds to the appeal?
I've also read that excess Nicotene intake may directly result in Thyroid cancer, seeing as this gland naturally produces Nicotene unless the body has an over-supply of it from another source. This may not fit the precise definition of a carcinogen, but the result would be the same.
The trouble is there is very little absolute certainty of what does or doesn't cause cancer, it can only be proven statistically which activities should be considered 'high risk'. And although vaping is a damn site healthier than smoking, it isn't as risk-free as most of us would like to believe.
Realistically though, you can be as health-concious as possible and still accidently walk in front of a bus
As I used to say to non-smokers when I still smoked: "One day you are going to feel damn silly dying of NOTHING!"So would you mind sharing some with me then ?
I really enjoy the twisp tobacco #1 flavour so if you have a recipe that tastes like that, feel free to share
Most welcome to the forum. If you feel like it, please introduce yourself at the end of this thread: http://www.ecigssa.co.za/threads/introduce-yourselves.24/So would you mind sharing some with me then ?
Some of @dragontw's recipes to be found here: http://www.ecigssa.co.za/threads/dragontws-recipes.2716/
And some recipes from others on that forum as well.
Happy vaping.
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