DIY - Your first time

[free3dom]

Fantastic stuff @Derick ...thanks for taking the time to write all this out, this is pure gold (with a dash of Ethyl Maltol to dull the sharp edges)

Gentlemen (and ladies) start your....uhmm, mixers (??)

 

[Arthster]

Again Derick, I can not thank you guys enough, this is truly a lifetime of knowledge being shared. Thank you very very much.

 

[kimbo]

Hi @Derick

Very nice write up

When i started to use EM i had to pick up the percentage of my NET in my mix, it dulled the taste but on the other hand just brought everything together

 

[Dr Phil]

Hi @Derick

Very nice write up

When i started to use EM i had to pick up the percentage of my NET in my mix, it dulled the taste but on the other hand just brought everything together

. Guys if u ever wanna try a nice Tobacco Vape u have to try kimbos DIY mix

 

[Vincent]

Thanks for the wonderful series @Derick, very comprehensive and written in a way that us regular folks can easily understand. I would like to add some of my findings on the odd chance that someone else might consider it useful, specifically on the subject of additives:

Sweeteners in general

I've used both sucralose and EM in quite a few of my mixes and my feelings are rather mixed (lol):

EM, even in small amounts, seems to round flavours a little too well in that mixes containing EM usually end up with dramatically reduced flavour and it seems to get worse over time, heck I'm sure if I left them for a year I'd be vaping plain old PG/VG (or at least that's what it feels like to me).

Sucralose adds a decent sweetness (albeit an artificial one) but doesn't seem to dull the flavour like EM but as Derick rightly points out, use too much and it starts tasting rather funky, I normally go with 2 drops per 10 ml of mixed product (YMMV). As of late I don't really find myself using it that much any more, instead now I rely on the flavour combinations to bring along their own sweetness and since VG is actually quite sweet on it's own I've actually started to use more VG in my mixes.

Citric Acid

If you want to add a bit of tartness to your e-liquid then citric acid works a treat. I've found that it adds a certain vibrance to mixes of the fruity persuasion. You can use store bought citric acid powder provided it does not contain any additives (anti-caking agents etc.) and you HAVE to dilute it. I throw 1/4 teaspoon of citric acid powder into a bottle containing 10ml of PG (this will render a ~10% PG solution), place the bottle in some warm water and then shake like a mad man/women until it is fully dissolved. If you are making a fruit mix then add 1 drop of the 10% solution for every 10ml of mixed product.

Acetyl Pyrazine 5%

This is a rather interesting compound that imparts a nutty, bready flavour at low percentages (1%) and a corn chip (like Fritos) flavour at high percentages (4-5%), this is most commonly used to enhance dessert and tobacco mixes. I've recently discovered that it works miracles in chocolate mixes, it seems to give it a smoother and creamier taste (kind of like nutella) and also does magical things for cereal type mixes. Acetyl Pyrazine does carry inhalation risks but for DIY it's usually sold in a 5% solution and even then you would only use it in small amounts (1%-5%) - the general interwebs considers it "safe" to use at these incredibly low concentrations, but as always, use your own discretion.

I'm still very much a DIY noob and I'm just stating my personal experience so far, feel free to point out any and all absurdities

@Derick, can't wait for the next instalment, keep up the good work!

 

[Derick]

Thanks for the awesome replies, I will sit this weekend and incorporate them and post a PDF here for easy download/printing.

EM, yep, it can dull your flavours quite harshly, I really just use it when we have a very harsh flavour that is so harsh it burns the throat. Generally anything more than around 4% seems to start having negative effects, but it does seem to bring your flavours to around the same level - rounding it out, so if you have a mix with one harsh flavour spoiling the brew, then EM is the ticket.

Also before giving up on a bad mix, I'll try some EM to see if it does not perhaps save the day.

Another additive that I forgot to mention is vinegar. Yep, good old White Vinegar. Safety of inhalation aside, I have read about people adding a few drops of vinegar to their tobacco mixes especially, it apparently gives a raisiny type after taste to your mix and is reportedly the secret ingredient in Boba's Bounty

Also trying to get my hands on some Stevia and Sucralose, will report my findings

@Vincent - I have often wondered if adding more VG would perhaps also not tame a harsh flavour, something I am looking forward to experimenting with.

 

[kimbo]

Thanks for the awesome replies, I will sit this weekend and incorporate them and post a PDF here for easy download/printing.

EM, yep, it can dull your flavours quite harshly, I really just use it when we have a very harsh flavour that is so harsh it burns the throat. Generally anything more than around 4% seems to start having negative effects, but it does seem to bring your flavours to around the same level - rounding it out, so if you have a mix with one harsh flavour spoiling the brew, then EM is the ticket.

Also before giving up on a bad mix, I'll try some EM to see if it does not perhaps save the day.

Another additive that I forgot to mention is vinegar. Yep, good old White Vinegar. Safety of inhalation aside, I have read about people adding a few drops of vinegar to their tobacco mixes especially, it apparently gives a raisiny type after taste to your mix and is reportedly the secret ingredient in Boba's Bounty

Also trying to get my hands on some Stevia and Sucralose, will report my findings

@Vincent - I have often wondered if adding more VG would perhaps also not tame a harsh flavour, something I am looking forward to experimenting with.

@Derick i use Apple Cider Vinegar at about 1 drop per 10ml, and it works great in my NET

 

[hands]

i also use apple cider vinegar in my net mix. i like to use a bit more and add 3 drops per 10ml cause the acv i have is a bit weak.
fantastic post and i hope this raises more diy interest so we can share some recipes.

 

[Silver]

Wow @Derick, thanks for part 3 and 4
Really amazing to read and so well written
I love the humour and your style. Where have you been hiding!?

And as for that flavour wheel - my goodness, its like you have opened up a whole new world for me
Thank you sir!

 

[Vincent]

@Derick VG can indeed reduce the harshness of some flavours provided you stick to the same percentages in your mix, i.e. don't boost flavours to compensate for VG not being as great a flavour carrier.

Just quick note about why lemon juice and vinegar seem to have a positive effect in e-liquid mixes...

pH levels in e-liquid



In most cases your e-liquids will end up leaning towards the Alkaline side of the scale, this is because PG (this includes flavour concentrates) has a pH of 10 and VG is Neutral. Ideally you want to be have a pH between 6 and 8 and this is where lemon juice (fruit mixes) and vinegar (dessert/tobacco mixes) comes into play - these more acidic additives can alter the pH of the e-liquid and help bring it closer to neutral if used in the correct amounts. Balancing the pH can help with harshness to a degree and really improve the overall taste of your juice.

 

[free3dom]

So today I took the time to do my first little DIY mix, feeling confident after having read this thread and understanding that it can be quite a simple procedure. The end result: a 50/50, 12mg, Pineapple flavour.

And OMG (not 0mg) it turned out great for a first try...even without steeping

I can definitely say that it was every bit as satisfying vaping my own juice mix as it was the first time I vaped on my own coil

Thanks again @Derick for taking the time to put this out there - it was just the push I needed

 

[Derick]

So today I took the time to do my first little DIY mix, feeling confident after having read this thread and understanding that it can be quite a simple procedure. The end result: a 50/50, 12mg, Pineapple flavour.

And OMG (not 0mg) it turned out great for a first try...even without steeping

I can definitely say that it was every bit as satisfying vaping my own juice mix as it was the first time I vaped on my own coil

Thanks again @Derick for taking the time to put this out there - it was just the push I needed

Yay! Congratulations!

Just getting that first mix out of the way is a big step, it goes a long way towards giving you the confidence needed.

Pineapple was a good flavour to start with, it is a very distinct flavour and therefore a mix that is too weak or too strong is not be easily noticed. All that steeping will do with pineapple is take away some of the 'sharp' edges on the flavour and tone it down a bit. The one downside to using pineapple is when you try and mix it with other flavours - because it is so distinct, it tends to easily overwhelm anything you might try and add to it.

And I guess another downside, is that it is a flavour that tends to linger in your wick, So unless you make a new coil, any other flavour you vape afterwards with the same wick, will have a pineapple hint to it - which I consider not really a bad thing as such - Sometimes I even discover a new tasty combination this way.

 

[free3dom]

Yay! Congratulations!

Just getting that first mix out of the way is a big step, it goes a long way towards giving you the confidence needed.

Pineapple was a good flavour to start with, it is a very distinct flavour and therefore a mix that is too weak or too strong is not be easily noticed. All that steeping will do with pineapple is take away some of the 'sharp' edges on the flavour and tone it down a bit. The one downside to using pineapple is when you try and mix it with other flavours - because it is so distinct, it tends to easily overwhelm anything you might try and add to it.

And I guess another downside, is that it is a flavour that tends to linger in your wick, So unless you make a new coil, any other flavour you vape afterwards with the same wick, will have a pineapple hint to it - which I consider not really a bad thing as such - Sometimes I even discover a new tasty combination this way.

The pineapple is indeed quite strong, and if I hadn't read here to start low, I'm sure I would have added too much - as it stands I only added around 8% (as per instruction ) and it seems to be just about the sweet spot for my tastes. I'm not sure whether I would want to "spoil" the lovely pineapple with other flavours - instead I think it would be best enhanced by experimenting with some additives, especially malic acid or menthol. I also think that adding a few drops of pineapple to other flavours, instead of mixing it in substantial quantities, would be a good use in many cases.

I think I'll stick to single flavour for a while. One of the reasons I wanted to do DIY was to experiment with different PG/VG ratios to compare the difference in vape when everything else stays the same. Having made a "nice" baseline, I can now just vary the PG/VG ratio and should get a clear picture of exactly how this affects the various properties of the vape - I've read what it's supposed to do, but now I need to experience it for myself

As to the lingering nature of the pinapple, I tend to re-wick quite frequently anyways - I am quite proficient and can almost do it while driving

Again, thanks for teaching us "how to fish"...in addition to providing us with great "fish"

 

[Vincent]

Congrats on your first mix @free3dom, you are off to a really good start by focusing and spending time on the individual aspects of mixing, as a variant of the saying goes: "Slowly, slowly catchee monkey", patience and method go a long way in creating excellent juices.

After you are comfortable with your PG/VG ratios and feel like adding another flavour to your mix, might I suggest introducing some TFA Coconut at around 2-3%, it goes very nicely with TFA Pineapple... piña colada anyone

 

[free3dom]

Congrats on your first mix @free3dom, you are off to a really good start by focusing and spending time on the individual aspects of mixing, as a variant of the saying goes: "Slowly, slowly catchee monkey", patience and method go a long way in creating excellent juices.

After you are comfortable with your PG/VG ratios and feel like adding another flavour to your mix, might I suggest introducing some TFA Coconut at around 2-3%, it goes very nicely with TFA Pineapple... piña colada anyone

Coconut does sound like the perfect partner for Pineapple and I can definitely see myself playing around with those two and the mixing ratio when I get to flavour combinations. Thanks for the advice

 

[Rob Fisher]

After you are comfortable with your PG/VG ratios and feel like adding another flavour to your mix, might I suggest introducing some TFA Coconut at around 2-3%, it goes very nicely with TFA Pineapple... piña colada anyone

So happy to see you come out of your Cave after lurking for so long @Vincent!

 

[Vincent]

So happy to see you come out of your Cave after lurking for so long @Vincent!

Thanks @Rob Fisher, trying little by little to give back to the wonderful community that has already given me so much

 

[Rob Fisher]

Thanks @Rob Fisher, trying little by little to give back to the wonderful community that has already given me so much

100% And based on your contribution you know your stuff!

My guess is this is the first forum you have been on and you have been checking how things work... now the seal is broken there will be no stopping you!

 

[Silver]

I think I'll stick to single flavour for a while. One of the reasons I wanted to do DIY was to experiment with different PG/VG ratios to compare the difference in vape when everything else stays the same. Having made a "nice" baseline, I can now just vary the PG/VG ratio and should get a clear picture of exactly how this affects the various properties of the vape - I've read what it's supposed to do, but now I need to experience it for myself

Hi @free3dom - am very interested to hear the results of this experiment of yours. Go for it!
Am watching.

 

[free3dom]

Dear diary...I mean dear vapers

I mixed up two more batches today: one with max PG, and one with max VG. Both were done with the same ratio of pineapple flavour (~8%) and nic level (12mg) so that I could test how the different fluids perform in relation to one another.

These are the amounts I used for each of the 3 mixes (for each I made 12ml, so the ratios are ml/12):
The flavour is TFA Pineapple (from SkyBlue ).

1. 50/50 PG/VG, 12ml, 12mg (Not exactly 50/50, but close enough)
36mg PG: 2ml
0mg PG: 3ml
36mg VG: 2ml
0mg VG: 4ml
Flavour: 1ml

2. ~100 PG, 12ml, 12mg
36mg PG: 4ml
0mg PG: 7ml
Flavour: 1ml

3. ~100 VG, 12ml, 12mg (because the flavour is PG based, this is not actually 100% VG, but again, close enough for my purposes)
36mg VG: 4ml
0mg VG: 7ml
Flavour: 1ml

#1 (from a few days ago) turned out great. The pineapple flavour was spot on for my tastes - not too sweet and not too dull. It also produced a fairly mild but acceptable throat hit - this is one area I would like to improve (read: increase) in the original mix. All in all, very satisfying and I could probably vape it all day as long as I have a nice TH juice in another device to hit every so often - which is exactly what I did during my test period (Strawberry Snap 18mg, very nice TH).

#2 was a max PG liquid and was quite interesting. From what I've read, and based on what I understand, it does flavour better but at the cost of vapor production. I have now confirmed this . At the same ratios of liquid to flavour, the Pinapple was noticably more pronounced and in fact a little strong (sweet) for my tastes. Not bad, but just a tad over the top. It did settle a bit as I vaped it, so it might have just been that I did not mix it well enough (see note at end). I was also very surprised by just how much the vapor is reduced when vaping the PG only liquid (I knew it was supposed to, but wow) - I felt very inadequate at the sight of such tiny whispy little clouds I also did not really feel much of an improved throat hit as compared to the 50/50 mix as I had expected - curious. I'm not ready to say that higher PG does nothing for TH, but it didn't do much for me in this mix. Will have to experiment more, as increase of TH is something I am very interested in. Final verdict, it's okay, but I much prefered the 50/50 to this one.

#3 was a max VG, and here the VG is actually quite a bit less than 100 because of the flavouring. From what I've read, VG is supposed to be the magical ingredient of clouds...and indeed, it almost started raining when I fired it up Very noticable improvement in vapor production, and my earlier feelings of inadequacy evaporated along with the fluffy clouds As for flavour, it was noticably muted; better than the sweetness of the PG, but not as good as in the 50/50 - some of this may be due to my mixing ability when working with the sludge that is VG Finally, the almost complete lack of throat hit is astonishing - a massive negative for me, but could be a very big positive for those that do not like a harsh TH. I think this is what surprised me the most, you feel almost nothing going it and then...clouds for days - crazy stuff. Final verdict, nice clouds but the lack of a good throat hit spoils it for me personally; again the 50/50 wins

So after all this, the 50/50 mix was definitely the best overall, and I'm starting to see why they are used together. A nice little experiment, and a good first step. Thanks again @Derick!

I welcome any and all clarifications, insights, and wisdoms based on my very simplistic analysis of the effects of PG/VG ratios on vape liquids. I will report back if the juices change profile overnight due to a visit from the vape fairy

And that's it for this entry. Hopefully it will add some value to this thread

Next I will try to fiddle around with maybe doing ~3/4 (80/20 or 70/30) ratios to see if that fixes some of the quirks of these "max" versions. I also might do a higher nic version of the 50/50 - in persuit of that bigger throat hit I might also have a look at some additives to try and divine their effects on the juices.

NOTE: Mixing pure PG is sooo much easier than with VG; PG flows like water, whereas VG is like slime I should have known that something with Vegetable in the name would be gross

 

[Derick]

Dear diary...I mean dear vapers

I mixed up two more batches today: one with max PG, and one with max VG. Both were done with the same ratio of pineapple flavour (~8%) and nic level (12mg) so that I could test how the different fluids perform in relation to one another.

These are the amounts I used for each of the 3 mixes (for each I made 12ml, so the ratios are ml/12):
The flavour is TFA Pineapple (from SkyBlue ).

1. 50/50 PG/VG, 12ml, 12mg (Not exactly 50/50, but close enough)
36mg PG: 2ml
0mg PG: 3ml
36mg VG: 2ml
0mg VG: 4ml
Flavour: 1ml

2. ~100 PG, 12ml, 12mg
36mg PG: 4ml
0mg PG: 7ml
Flavour: 1ml

3. ~100 VG, 12ml, 12mg (because the flavour is PG based, this is not actually 100% VG, but again, close enough for my purposes)
36mg VG: 4ml
0mg VG: 7ml
Flavour: 1ml

#1 (from a few days ago) turned out great. The pineapple flavour was spot on for my tastes - not too sweet and not too dull. It also produced a fairly mild but acceptable throat hit - this is one area I would like to improve (read: increase) in the original mix. All in all, very satisfying and I could probably vape it all day as long as I have a nice TH juice in another device to hit every so often - which is exactly what I did during my test period (Strawberry Snap 18mg, very nice TH).

#2 was a max PG liquid and was quite interesting. From what I've read, and based on what I understand, it does flavour better but at the cost of vapor production. I have now confirmed this . At the same ratios of liquid to flavour, the Pinapple was noticably more pronounced and in fact a little strong (sweet) for my tastes. Not bad, but just a tad over the top. It did settle a bit as I vaped it, so it might have just been that I did not mix it well enough (see note at end). I was also very surprised by just how much the vapor is reduced when vaping the PG only liquid (I knew it was supposed to, but wow) - I felt very inadequate at the sight of such tiny whispy little clouds I also did not really feel much of an improved throat hit as compared to the 50/50 mix as I had expected - curious. I'm not ready to say that higher PG does nothing for TH, but it didn't do much for me in this mix. Will have to experiment more, as increase of TH is something I am very interested in. Final verdict, it's okay, but I much prefered the 50/50 to this one.

#3 was a max VG, and here the VG is actually quite a bit less than 100 because of the flavouring. From what I've read, VG is supposed to be the magical ingredient of clouds...and indeed, it almost started raining when I fired it up Very noticable improvement in vapor production, and my earlier feelings of inadequacy evaporated along with the fluffy clouds As for flavour, it was noticably muted; better than the sweetness of the PG, but not as good as in the 50/50 - some of this may be due to my mixing ability when working with the sludge that is VG Finally, the almost complete lack of throat hit is astonishing - a massive negative for me, but could be a very big positive for those that do not like a harsh TH. I think this is what surprised me the most, you feel almost nothing going it and then...clouds for days - crazy stuff. Final verdict, nice clouds but the lack of a good throat hit spoils it for me personally; again the 50/50 wins

So after all this, the 50/50 mix was definitely the best overall, and I'm starting to see why they are used together. A nice little experiment, and a good first step. Thanks again @Derick!

I welcome any and all clarifications, insights, and wisdoms based on my very simplistic analysis of the effects of PG/VG ratios on vape liquids. I will report back if the juices change profile overnight due to a visit from the vape fairy

And that's it for this entry. Hopefully it will add some value to this thread

Next I will try to fiddle around with maybe doing ~3/4 (80/20 or 70/30) ratios to see if that fixes some of the quirks of these "max" versions. I also might do a higher nic version of the 50/50 - in persuit of that bigger throat hit I might also have a look at some additives to try and divine their effects on the juices.

NOTE: Mixing pure PG is sooo much easier than with VG; PG flows like water, whereas VG is like slime I should have known that something with Vegetable in the name would be gross

Awesome post @free3dom

I have never done the max PG max VG with the same flavour test - always wanted to and I'm so glad you did. I mean we always read about the differences and we have to some extent experienced it, but from a scientific bases, it is always good to verify known factors.

I am somewhat surprised with the PG not increasing your throat hit though , but from what I have experienced is that throat hit can be greatly influenced by the flavour used as well. (some flavours just produce I better TH and I'm not yet sure why)

What you can do when you want to make pure or high VG mixes, is to get yourself some distilled water from the pharmacy and add about 5% to your VG - this makes it a lot more runny and a lot easier to work with. You can play around a bit with the right amount to mix in, but any more than 5% and you start tasting the water vapour (yep tastes like you would think steam tastes like )

Looking forward to your take on the 80/20 and 70/30 ratios

 

[Derick]

Attached to this post is a PDF where I literally just copy/pasted my 4 part post. For easy download and reference.

I have not 'prettyfied' it in anyway, but I have some leave coming up, so I should be able to post a V2, at which point I will include some of the information in the excellent replies I have received.

During Next week (or perhaps the week after, seeing as next week is Christmas) , I'll do a new series on the super accurate method. This will involve using some DIY software, or if you are hardcore, you can use math (I wont be, thankyouverymuch)

I will however pick my favourite software and use that to walk you through a mix with the software - including screenshots and a few of the possible errors the software will give you (they can be confusing)

I'll also talk about other interesting software out there plus a few other things people have asked me to cover.

 

[hands]

Thanks Derick. I am looking forward to the next chapter.

 

[kimbo]

Attached to this post is a PDF where I literally just copy/pasted my 4 part post. For easy download and reference.

I have not 'prettyfied' it in anyway, but I have some leave coming up, so I should be able to post a V2, at which point I will include some of the information in the excellent replies I have received.

During Next week (or perhaps the week after, seeing as next week is Christmas) , I'll do a new series on the super accurate method. This will involve using some DIY software, or if you are hardcode, you can use math (I wont be, thankyouverymuch)

I will however pick my favourite software and use that to walk you through a mix with the software - including screenshots and a few of the possible errors the software will give you (they can be confusing)

I'll also talk about other interesting software out there plus a few other things people have asked me to cover.

Thx for the .pdf @Derick. We just call you now Bill Nye (Bill Bill Bill Bill Bill)

 

[Derick]

Thx for the .pdf @Derick. We just call you now Bill Nye (Bill Bill Bill Bill Bill)

I LOVE Bill Nye