DIY - Your first time

[Silver]

Dear diary...I mean dear vapers

I mixed up two more batches today: one with max PG, and one with max VG. Both were done with the same ratio of pineapple flavour (~8%) and nic level (12mg) so that I could test how the different fluids perform in relation to one another.

These are the amounts I used for each of the 3 mixes (for each I made 12ml, so the ratios are ml/12):
The flavour is TFA Pineapple (from SkyBlue ).

1. 50/50 PG/VG, 12ml, 12mg (Not exactly 50/50, but close enough)
36mg PG: 2ml
0mg PG: 3ml
36mg VG: 2ml
0mg VG: 4ml
Flavour: 1ml

2. ~100 PG, 12ml, 12mg
36mg PG: 4ml
0mg PG: 7ml
Flavour: 1ml

3. ~100 VG, 12ml, 12mg (because the flavour is PG based, this is not actually 100% VG, but again, close enough for my purposes)
36mg VG: 4ml
0mg VG: 7ml
Flavour: 1ml

#1 (from a few days ago) turned out great. The pineapple flavour was spot on for my tastes - not too sweet and not too dull. It also produced a fairly mild but acceptable throat hit - this is one area I would like to improve (read: increase) in the original mix. All in all, very satisfying and I could probably vape it all day as long as I have a nice TH juice in another device to hit every so often - which is exactly what I did during my test period (Strawberry Snap 18mg, very nice TH).

#2 was a max PG liquid and was quite interesting. From what I've read, and based on what I understand, it does flavour better but at the cost of vapor production. I have now confirmed this . At the same ratios of liquid to flavour, the Pinapple was noticably more pronounced and in fact a little strong (sweet) for my tastes. Not bad, but just a tad over the top. It did settle a bit as I vaped it, so it might have just been that I did not mix it well enough (see note at end). I was also very surprised by just how much the vapor is reduced when vaping the PG only liquid (I knew it was supposed to, but wow) - I felt very inadequate at the sight of such tiny whispy little clouds I also did not really feel much of an improved throat hit as compared to the 50/50 mix as I had expected - curious. I'm not ready to say that higher PG does nothing for TH, but it didn't do much for me in this mix. Will have to experiment more, as increase of TH is something I am very interested in. Final verdict, it's okay, but I much prefered the 50/50 to this one.

#3 was a max VG, and here the VG is actually quite a bit less than 100 because of the flavouring. From what I've read, VG is supposed to be the magical ingredient of clouds...and indeed, it almost started raining when I fired it up Very noticable improvement in vapor production, and my earlier feelings of inadequacy evaporated along with the fluffy clouds As for flavour, it was noticably muted; better than the sweetness of the PG, but not as good as in the 50/50 - some of this may be due to my mixing ability when working with the sludge that is VG Finally, the almost complete lack of throat hit is astonishing - a massive negative for me, but could be a very big positive for those that do not like a harsh TH. I think this is what surprised me the most, you feel almost nothing going it and then...clouds for days - crazy stuff. Final verdict, nice clouds but the lack of a good throat hit spoils it for me personally; again the 50/50 wins

So after all this, the 50/50 mix was definitely the best overall, and I'm starting to see why they are used together. A nice little experiment, and a good first step. Thanks again @Derick!

I welcome any and all clarifications, insights, and wisdoms based on my very simplistic analysis of the effects of PG/VG ratios on vape liquids. I will report back if the juices change profile overnight due to a visit from the vape fairy

And that's it for this entry. Hopefully it will add some value to this thread

Next I will try to fiddle around with maybe doing ~3/4 (80/20 or 70/30) ratios to see if that fixes some of the quirks of these "max" versions. I also might do a higher nic version of the 50/50 - in persuit of that bigger throat hit I might also have a look at some additives to try and divine their effects on the juices.

NOTE: Mixing pure PG is sooo much easier than with VG; PG flows like water, whereas VG is like slime I should have known that something with Vegetable in the name would be gross

Super post @free3dom !
Something i have always wanted to do myself but never got round to it.
Much appreciated and i loved the way you described your findings. I could imagine it clearly while reading what you wrote
Thanks a lot for doing it and sharing

I too will be very interested in your finding of 70/30 and 30/70 if you get a chance.

A few questions if i may:
1. I may have missed it, but what equipment, coil, wick and power were you using?
2. Do you normally vape 12mg?
3. How did the throat hit of your 50/50 blend compare with other 50/50 commercial juices?

 

[Vincent]

Dear diary...I mean dear vapers

I mixed up two more batches today: one with max PG, and one with max VG. Both were done with the same ratio of pineapple flavour (~8%) and nic level (12mg) so that I could test how the different fluids perform in relation to one another.

These are the amounts I used for each of the 3 mixes (for each I made 12ml, so the ratios are ml/12):
The flavour is TFA Pineapple (from SkyBlue ).

1. 50/50 PG/VG, 12ml, 12mg (Not exactly 50/50, but close enough)
36mg PG: 2ml
0mg PG: 3ml
36mg VG: 2ml
0mg VG: 4ml
Flavour: 1ml

2. ~100 PG, 12ml, 12mg
36mg PG: 4ml
0mg PG: 7ml
Flavour: 1ml

3. ~100 VG, 12ml, 12mg (because the flavour is PG based, this is not actually 100% VG, but again, close enough for my purposes)
36mg VG: 4ml
0mg VG: 7ml
Flavour: 1ml

#1 (from a few days ago) turned out great. The pineapple flavour was spot on for my tastes - not too sweet and not too dull. It also produced a fairly mild but acceptable throat hit - this is one area I would like to improve (read: increase) in the original mix. All in all, very satisfying and I could probably vape it all day as long as I have a nice TH juice in another device to hit every so often - which is exactly what I did during my test period (Strawberry Snap 18mg, very nice TH).

#2 was a max PG liquid and was quite interesting. From what I've read, and based on what I understand, it does flavour better but at the cost of vapor production. I have now confirmed this . At the same ratios of liquid to flavour, the Pinapple was noticably more pronounced and in fact a little strong (sweet) for my tastes. Not bad, but just a tad over the top. It did settle a bit as I vaped it, so it might have just been that I did not mix it well enough (see note at end). I was also very surprised by just how much the vapor is reduced when vaping the PG only liquid (I knew it was supposed to, but wow) - I felt very inadequate at the sight of such tiny whispy little clouds I also did not really feel much of an improved throat hit as compared to the 50/50 mix as I had expected - curious. I'm not ready to say that higher PG does nothing for TH, but it didn't do much for me in this mix. Will have to experiment more, as increase of TH is something I am very interested in. Final verdict, it's okay, but I much prefered the 50/50 to this one.

#3 was a max VG, and here the VG is actually quite a bit less than 100 because of the flavouring. From what I've read, VG is supposed to be the magical ingredient of clouds...and indeed, it almost started raining when I fired it up Very noticable improvement in vapor production, and my earlier feelings of inadequacy evaporated along with the fluffy clouds As for flavour, it was noticably muted; better than the sweetness of the PG, but not as good as in the 50/50 - some of this may be due to my mixing ability when working with the sludge that is VG Finally, the almost complete lack of throat hit is astonishing - a massive negative for me, but could be a very big positive for those that do not like a harsh TH. I think this is what surprised me the most, you feel almost nothing going it and then...clouds for days - crazy stuff. Final verdict, nice clouds but the lack of a good throat hit spoils it for me personally; again the 50/50 wins

So after all this, the 50/50 mix was definitely the best overall, and I'm starting to see why they are used together. A nice little experiment, and a good first step. Thanks again @Derick!

I welcome any and all clarifications, insights, and wisdoms based on my very simplistic analysis of the effects of PG/VG ratios on vape liquids. I will report back if the juices change profile overnight due to a visit from the vape fairy

And that's it for this entry. Hopefully it will add some value to this thread

Next I will try to fiddle around with maybe doing ~3/4 (80/20 or 70/30) ratios to see if that fixes some of the quirks of these "max" versions. I also might do a higher nic version of the 50/50 - in persuit of that bigger throat hit I might also have a look at some additives to try and divine their effects on the juices.

NOTE: Mixing pure PG is sooo much easier than with VG; PG flows like water, whereas VG is like slime I should have known that something with Vegetable in the name would be gross

Excellent post @free3dom, folks can learn a lot from this

In my experimentation I've found that it's the nicotine that's responsible for most of the throat hit in a mix. Try mixing up similar batches @ 0mg and you won't even know you are vaping I have read of some folks adding 1-2 drops per 5ml of high proof alcohol (pure grain alcohol or vodka without any flavouring) to enhance the throat hit, I can't say how well this works though as I haven't tried it myself... just not quite ready to vape alcohol yet

 

[Derick]

Excellent post @free3dom, folks can learn a lot from this

In my experimentation I've found that it's the nicotine that's responsible for most of the throat hit in a mix. Try mixing up similar batches @ 0mg and you won't even know you are vaping I have read of some folks adding 1-2 drops per 5ml of high proof alcohol (pure grain alcohol or vodka without any flavouring) to enhance the throat hit, I can't say how well this works though as I haven't tried it myself... just not quite ready to vape alcohol yet

Before distilled water, people used to add 5% vodka to their VG to make it more runny, in fact some e-liquid calculators still allow for vodka to be added and I believe some people still use this method.

 

[free3dom]

Super post @free3dom !
Something i have always wanted to do myself but never got round to it.
Much appreciated and i loved the way you described your findings. I could imagine it clearly while reading what you wrote
Thanks a lot for doing it and sharing

I too will be very interested in your finding of 70/30 and 30/70 if you get a chance.

A few questions if i may:
1. I may have missed it, but what equipment, coil, wick and power were you using?
2. Do you normally vape 12mg?
3. How did the throat hit of your 50/50 blend compare with other 50/50 commercial juices?

I knew I missed something

To asnwer the questions...
1. Vaped these on Taifun GT (closest device I have to a dripper ) with a 1.4 Ohm single micro coil and organic cotton. Ran it at 10-20W, but settled at around 14W for the most part.
2. I do normally vape at 12mg - started there and it has been satisfying so far. That said, I recently got me some 18mg juice - and there was a noticable increase in TH without any other side effects so I may just be moving on up
3. The throat hit on my 50/50 was noticably weaker than with my favourite commercial 50/50s (the 12mgs), but equivalent and even better than some others i've tried. This is why I think that there must be some secret sauce that brings the throat hit - and I want to discover it

As @Derick mentions, some flavours might just be a little weaker/stronger on throat hit so I will also try the other flavour I got with my starter kit in the same ratios and see how that affects the throat hit and other properties.

One thing I have noticed, which has my me wondering, is that when I vape (mouth to lung) the longer I hold the vapor in my mouth before drawing it in, the more pronounced the throat hit (up to a point of course). I'm not exactly sure why this would be but it's a "poor man's fix" for liquids with very low throat hit - just a pity I have to sit around looking like a bullfrog with puffed up cheeks

 

[free3dom]

Excellent post @free3dom, folks can learn a lot from this

In my experimentation I've found that it's the nicotine that's responsible for most of the throat hit in a mix. Try mixing up similar batches @ 0mg and you won't even know you are vaping I have read of some folks adding 1-2 drops per 5ml of high proof alcohol (pure grain alcohol or vodka without any flavouring) to enhance the throat hit, I can't say how well this works though as I haven't tried it myself... just not quite ready to vape alcohol yet

I have a suspicion that alcohol may indeed improve throat hit as two of my favourite throat hitters (the Strawberry juices from SkyBlue) both contain traces of alcohol (according to the description). I will test

Will definitely also try a 18mg 50/50 to see the effect that has, thanks

 

[Derick]

I have a suspicion that alcohol may indeed improve throat hit as two of my favourite throat hitters (the Strawberry juices from SkyBlue) both contain traces of alcohol (according to the description). I will test

Traces of alcohol in those are truly just traces - they used less than 1% to mix the flavour, and then we only added around 8% flavour to the mix, so it is really a miniscule amount that has probably evaporated by the time the mixing & steeping was finished.

We had a sample honeydew melon mix from TFA that had a throat hit so insane you could not vape it - which is why I always believed that flavouring is the major factor in throat hit strength (probably second to nicotine concentration)

 

[free3dom]

Awesome post @free3dom

I have never done the max PG max VG with the same flavour test - always wanted to and I'm so glad you did. I mean we always read about the differences and we have to some extent experienced it, but from a scientific bases, it is always good to verify known factors.

I am somewhat surprised with the PG not increasing your throat hit though , but from what I have experienced is that throat hit can be greatly influenced by the flavour used as well. (some flavours just produce I better TH and I'm not yet sure why)

What you can do when you want to make pure or high VG mixes, is to get yourself some distilled water from the pharmacy and add about 5% to your VG - this makes it a lot more runny and a lot easier to work with. You can play around a bit with the right amount to mix in, but any more than 5% and you start tasting the water vapour (yep tastes like you would think steam tastes like )

Looking forward to your take on the 80/20 and 70/30 ratios

Thanks @Derick.. I think you are absolutely correct that flavour plays a big role somehow. I've found that many complex flavours also seem to give me a better TH. And 10/10 for the tip on diluting the VG (which I have come to loving call 'The Sludge' ) - I don't think I'd even mind the steam taste . Doesn't the distilled water also provide some increase in TH too? (Think I read that somwhere).

 

[free3dom]

Traces of alcohol in those are truly just traces - they used less than 1% to mix the flavour, and then we only added around 8% flavour to the mix, so it is really a miniscule amount that has probably evaporated by the time the mixing & steeping was finished.

We had a sample honeydew melon mix from TFA that had a throat hit so insane you could not vape it - which is why I always believed that flavouring is the major factor in throat hit strength (probably second to nicotine concentration)

Thanks for clarifying...then flavour should definitely be my main focus going forward

Another problem (or "thing") I think is that the chemistry between various elements (such as additives with specific elements in certain flavours) may also play some role. Chemistry is a fairly complex subject and the interactions on the molecular level is certainly much more intricate than my basic testing at this point. I'll just have to keep experimenting

 

[Derick]

Thanks @Derick.. I think you are absolutely correct that flavour plays a big role somehow. I've found that many complex flavours also seem to give me a better TH. And 10/10 for the tip on diluting the VG (which I have come to loving call 'The Sludge' ) - I don't think I'd even mind the steam taste . Doesn't the distilled water also provide some increase in TH too? (Think I read that somwhere).

Have not seen that distilled water affects throat hit - but could be wrong. I have not worked with pure VG juices much, I'm a 50/50 lover

Yeah VG can be quite.. slow. I usually measure my VG out first, then add the rest of the ingredients to that, so I don't constantly have to re-pour the VG and wait for it to be done

 

[free3dom]

Have not seen that distilled water affects throat hit - but could be wrong. I have not worked with pure VG juices much, I'm a 50/50 lover

Yeah VG can be quite.. slow. I usually measure my VG out first, then add the rest of the ingredients to that, so I don't constantly have to re-pour the VG and wait for it to be done

I'm starting to understand why 50/50 is so common - it really is the best of both

I also like how everything else (PG/flavour) just stays on top of the VG...it's like I'm making those fancy cocktails with the layers of liquid

 

[Vincent]

Thanks for clarifying...then flavour should definitely be my main focus going forward

Another problem (or "thing") I think is that the chemistry between various elements (such as additives with specific elements in certain flavours) may also play some role. Chemistry is a fairly complex subject and the interactions on the molecular level is certainly much more intricate than my basic testing at this point. I'll just have to keep experimenting

I am in agreement that some flavour combinations contribute to overall throat hit, I'm just not a fan of potentially changing the resultant taste of my mix for the sake of TH, this is why I up the nic levels when I need that little extra oomph. That said, while I was previously looking into increasing TH a while back, I came across this "Flash" premix from FlavourArt, quoting the interesting bits:

We are glad to announce our latest development for nicotine free e liquid designed to mimic the nicotine hit.

Composition
PG 63%
VG 35%
Flavoring preparations and flavorings 2%

http://flavourartexpress.biz/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=743

So this lends to the theory that flavorings can indeed add throat hit and at a relatively low percentage too, just wish I knew what flavorings they were using to achieve this effect

 

[free3dom]

I am in agreement that some flavour combinations contribute to overall throat hit, I'm just not a fan of potentially changing the resultant taste of my mix for the sake of TH, this is why I up the nic levels when I need that little extra oomph. That said, while I was previously looking into increasing TH a while back, I came across this "Flash" premix from FlavourArt, quoting the interesting bits:



http://flavourartexpress.biz/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=743

So this lends to the theory that flavorings can indeed add throat hit and at a relatively low percentage too, just wish I knew what flavorings they were using to achieve this effect

I can totally see how chasing the TH can cause quite a headache when trying to keep flavouring just right. I'm lucky in that right now I'm more in experiment mode than getting it right mode (getting it wrong is a very important step - 100 ways NOT to make an e-liquid ).

I'd gladly vape flavourless juice with a nice hit, rather than complex flavoured liquid with none.

I've seen various liquids (and additives) similar to "Flash" that claims to improve throat hit but the comments and reviews usually violently disagree with these statements (I still need to translate the ones on the "Flash" page ). But none of them ever listed these ratios and this makes it very interesting, a great find. It seems almost certain that flavouring (or some part of certain flavours) is the big contributor to TH - I'll experiment with that soon just to verify it for myself

But first I will do higher nicotine with the same other ratios+flavouring just to see how much that contributes

Thanks a lot for all the feedback, I really appreciate your insights

 

[Derick]

I am in agreement that some flavour combinations contribute to overall throat hit, I'm just not a fan of potentially changing the resultant taste of my mix for the sake of TH, this is why I up the nic levels when I need that little extra oomph.

My only issue with this is that when I do create a nice flavour with the correct throat hit, I end up getting a Silver because I can't stop vaping

 

[free3dom]

My only issue with this is that when I do create a nice flavour with the correct throat hit, I end up getting a Silver because I can't stop vaping

Good name for a juice that...the Silver

I can see how making e-liquid can be problematic with all the "testing"

 

[Vincent]

Good name for a juice that...the Silver

I can see how making e-liquid can be problematic with all the "testing"

Oh absolutely!

Funny story... there is another trick I sometimes use if I want to figure out which flavours are hiding in the background of a foreign juice, if for example the predominant flavour is strawberry, I would then make a fairly strong mix of strawberry standalone (without the nic) and self induce vapors tongue, upon vaping the first juice the strawberry is muted and the other flavours come to the front making them much easier to identify. I was doing exactly this just last weekend and grabbed a nicely steeped strawberry ripe mix off my shelf, vaped the hell out of it and found myself staring at a wall trying to remember what I was doing. Yep... The Silver had struck... turns out that it was a mix I had made for a friend a long while ago containing a good 12mg nic (which is actually pretty strong for me).

n00b tip: Label your stuff properly

 

[free3dom]

Oh absolutely!

Funny story... there is another trick I sometimes use if I want to figure out which flavours are hiding in the background of a foreign juice, if for example the predominant flavour is strawberry, I would then make a fairly strong mix of strawberry standalone (without the nic) and self induce vapors tongue, upon vaping the first juice the strawberry is muted and the other flavours come to the front making them much easier to identify. I was doing exactly this just last weekend and grabbed a nicely steeped strawberry ripe mix off my shelf, vaped the hell out of it and found myself staring at a wall trying to remember what I was doing. Yep... The Silver had struck... turns out that it was a mix I had made for a friend a long while ago containing a good 12mg nic (which is actually pretty strong for me).

n00b tip: Label your stuff properly

Self induced vapor's tongue...brilliant
The pain we endure for our "art"

 

[kimbo]

Oh absolutely!

Funny story... there is another trick I sometimes use if I want to figure out which flavours are hiding in the background of a foreign juice, if for example the predominant flavour is strawberry, I would then make a fairly strong mix of strawberry standalone (without the nic) and self induce vapors tongue, upon vaping the first juice the strawberry is muted and the other flavours come to the front making them much easier to identify. I was doing exactly this just last weekend and grabbed a nicely steeped strawberry ripe mix off my shelf, vaped the hell out of it and found myself staring at a wall trying to remember what I was doing. Yep... The Silver had struck... turns out that it was a mix I had made for a friend a long while ago containing a good 12mg nic (which is actually pretty strong for me).

n00b tip: Label your stuff properly

Taking one for the team .. now that is dedication

 

[Silver]

This thread is very interesting - thanks to all the contributors.
@Derick, you started something fantastic here.
I am following it with much interest

 

[Derick]

Oh, and you have to wear this t-shirt while mixing

 

[free3dom]

Oh, and you have to wear this t-shirt while mixing

I was bitten by a radioactive e-liquid

 

[Derick]

Just wanted to add a little something here.

I know there are a lot of lurkers on the site, people that prefer not to chat on forums for whatever reason - you guys are welcome to PM me with questions, or mail me - I promise, I won't laugh Plus I'm a very patient person, been involved in doing a lot of training and I am willing to explain stuff over and over till a you are satisfied.

 

[Raslin]

And it's coming together... Thanks to @Derick and @Melinda. I was really excited about my first mix Sweet Raspberry, but it turned out to be almost tasteless...

But now since I followed their advice the latest batch has come through. A nice pinkish colour, smooth mellow taste. Even though I used 13% flavour and 1% vanilla.

And all it took was 20 days in the cupboard, most importantly I did not expose it to moonlight and stopped the coven from dancing around the bottle naked - the things I do for a good vape...

Thanks @Derick and @Melinda, have a great Xmas, you guys rock.

 

[free3dom]

And it's coming together... Thanks to @Derick and @Melinda. I was really excited about my first mix Sweet Raspberry, but it turned out to be almost tasteless...

But now since I followed their advice the latest batch has come through. A nice pinkish colour, smooth mellow taste. Even though I used 13% flavour and 1% vanilla.

And all it took was 20 days in the cupboard, most importantly I did not expose it to moonlight and stopped the coven from dancing around the bottle naked - the things I do for a good vape...

Thanks @Derick and @Melinda, have a great Xmas, you guys rock.

You're missing out...the moonlight and naked dancing is the best part

I'm curious as to why it was tasteless at first...did you just steep the original mix to improve the flavour, or did you mix up a new batch at a different ratio?

I guess I was lucky with my first flavours (TFA Pineapple + TFA Energy Drink) in that they were quite pronounced (at only 8%) without any steeping at all. I have some steeping (with moonlight and dancing ) and will test the difference in a week or two - but so far it's been quite nice (maybe a tad harsh during extended use).

 

[Arthster]

New term I heard twice today and I have no idea what it means, what is silvering? I am pretty sure its not a evil look from @Silver

 

[free3dom]

New term I heard twice today and I have no idea what it means, what is silvering? I am pretty sure its not a evil look from @Silver

It's a nicotine overdose...there's a whole (endearing) story on here where the name comes from (hint: it involves @Silver)...I'll go thread hunting and post it here if I can find it