HE v non-HE

[DougP]

This is where it gets interesting
I own a set of Callaway golf Clubs. American design, rated tops, used by tour players
.... and yup look carefully
...Made in China
If one today takes a closer look at almost all items I am sure you will see a "made in China" label tucked away somewhere on it
So if the mindset of
Non HE - made In China
HE - made in "the west"
Applies where would one slot in vape gear that would come from, For example a India, if they started producing vape gear

In essence is there a difference between:
Designed in China - Manufactured in China Designed in USA - Manufactured in China

Let's take the skyline RTA for example if it remained exactly as is but was sent by its designers to be manufactured in China would it be written off as a Non HE device






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[DougP]

Rob has highlighted another perfect debatable example here ....

"There are products that stand out (and are awesome) that are not considered HE because they are made in China............ the VGOD not so much.. my VGOD was crap... Kak button and it whined...."
If we then look at silvers ESC Skyline post there was numerous guys running around using vice grips, socket sets and resorting to deep freezes and even hints of using Q20 and the likes thereof to try a release stuck juice flow control rings on their Skyline RTA's to the point where they where actually damaged. There was even people driving around to other peoples homes after hours to borrow/use 5mm socket sets to loosen seized juice flow control rings
If using the same principles then the skyline RTA (built in Europe) should then fall into the same category of NON HE given its problems.


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[Anneries]

I tried my utmost best to stay out of this thread for a single reason and according to me the main issue with "HE gear".

The main issue I see with HE vs non-HE is the classification and seperation. I am on other forums aswell, where there are also "Hand made/Limited Runs/Special Edition/First batch" sections of the market. Knives/pens/torches/handerchieves/spin tops/backpacks/wallets/razors you name it, they have a "High End" section.

In non of the other forums have I ever seen this type of "hyper sensitivity" about the difference. Someone will post a photo and review of his ZAR121 000 Mont Blanc Skeleton pen, everyone will go gaga over it and move on. The next day I will post a photo of my new R400 Lamy Safari and everyone will congratulate me and give me their input on the use of said pen. Someone will arrange for a group purchase of some lost art Double edge razor blade or soap, it will be done everyone will wait forever and be happy when they get it. Without people trolling the Shave of the days to see how someones one out of 100 blades that was mis alligned in the razor gave him a nick.

To me, if I have to play along with the HE vs non-HE the following SHOULD apply to HE, if it does I cannot confirm as I do not own HE vape gear. But this is what makes it for me in all other things I collect:

1. Well designed, not necsarly unique but well designed. Lets face it there is very little to nothing new under the sun.
2. Good aftersales service. Actually Fantastic aftersales sevice, you shouldnt have to wait for a response for weeks (NOT EVEN IF THEY ARE BUSY WITH A LIMITED RUN).
3. Fit and Finish should be unmatched. No rattles, tollerances should be minimal but not even that should hinder operation.
4. It should work FOR YOU. 99% of the "men" on the street will not know the difference between my Mont Blanc Choppin and a Bic.
5. Instructions. Even if it is obvious to me how to use a converter, and it would be for 100% of Fountain Pen users. If I gave any of my fountain pens that have converters to anyone else in my family they will thing the coverter is empty and chuck it in the bin. That being said, with all my fountain pens, only one had a little page in on how to use and care for the pen. (With details on how to contact them). It would seem that if you can pay the price of that pen you should be have a fair knowledge on how to use the pen and look after it.

As I have said. I cannot comment on vaping HE gear. There is still one "HE" RTA that I want, and one day hopefully I will. But other than that, nothing tickeld my fancy enough yet to spend days dreaming about it.

 

[stevie g]

I will own an ESG Skyline one day but until then I'm happy with my daily beater Hohm Slice and AVO24.

I'd call this combination bulletproof even and belongs in the midrange.

Low end for me is something built to break. Bear with me now I'm being honest.

A Griffin 22 on a eleaf ipower 80w is low end in my opinion. Why?. Well the griffin has a press fitted deck which over time if carried, dropped, thrown in a bag etc the press fit seal will slowly deteriorate.

The Ipower 80W has a built in battery so when the battery needs to be replaced you throw the entire thing away and buy a new one.

Therefore the definition of HE is a device bought once, intended to last decades.

LE is a device with planned obsolescence that will fail in a year or 2.

What separates these classes is design philosophy.

 

[Silver]

If we then look at silvers ESC Skyline post there was numerous guys running around using vice grips, socket sets and resorting to deep freezes and even hints of using Q20 and the likes thereof to try a release stuck juice flow control rings on their Skyline RTA's to the point where they where actually damaged. There was even people driving around to other peoples homes after hours to borrow/use 5mm socket sets to loosen seized juice flow control rings

@Blends Of Distinction - you are right - I was one of the people that had to resort to the "freezer followed by hot water on the outer" method to get my juice flow going smoothly.

At that point I was thinking of you - maybe you could have provided a shoelace to MacGuyver a solution of some sort...

I was really upset and frustrated that night when I discovered my juice flow was stuck. Certainly didn't feel very HE at the time. (Even though it was stuck open and the vape was still great). But thankfully it got resolved - and its been several tankfuls later - and I am starting to understand why this tank is so called "high end". Look it still needs a helluva lot of time in my vape cave to catch up to the reliability stats of some of my other "low end" tanks - but time will tell. So far the performance is fabulous for my style of vaping.

 

[Strontium]

Wow, this is one hotly contested thread!

Having caught the last three pages, this seems to be more about instilling a revolution - the apparent LE public getting to the point where they'd like to lead the apparent HE Marie Antoinette-esque snobs to the guillotine. Lol. Can't see much of a discussion between the gear here.

What even classifies vape gear as High End? Is it:

1. The Price?
2. The Rarity?
3. The Use of Expensive Materials?
4. Just talked up by parties that can afford and justify the purchase to themselves?
5. The associated engineering and ergonomics of the product?

Talking on each point:

1. I could buy a normal pico and melo 3 combo for R25k - do I now own HE gear? Or am I just a silly sod for falling for that without researching the associated value?

2. Does having something that's one of a kind with a limited production run really increase its value? Is there a demand for that product in the open market? I could also argue that my one of a kind VGOD Pro 150 is the only one in the world with a zig zag scratch on it signed by Nelson Mandela (see it's one of a kind) is worth more than your meteorite metal, Damascus steel, samurai blood etched dripper, since both are again one of a kind. I suppose if someone really wanted my VGOD, since they're a big Nelson Mandela fan, would find more value in that than the aforementioned dripper.

3. Expensive materials. This is interesting. I mean in a car you have materials like carbon kevlar used which is exotic, expensive but also serves a purpose. My mod has resin impregnated iron wood from 17th century South America beset with actual insects that are now extinct, all topped with the finest blood tanzanite money can buy. But does it really add any function to my mod? I'm not sure as I'll leave that to you to decide.

4. Talked up? Well if I sold snake oil as the best and most flavourful vape juice ever created, that's one thing. But if via my immense marketing budget I was able to convince enough people that this is true, then I would have created a following. Each to their own here. Now imagine I managed to convince enough people that this is the best, period. Now I have an army of fan-boys that I've created. They will also fight for my product till the end of time on Internet forums, and judge anyone that points out that it is in fact just snake oil.

5. Now this rings true with me. Something that was well engineered and thought out. Designed with the best fit and form factor in mind. Where usability is at the fore and it's just a great product in terms of quality. However I spent millions on researching this product, and perfected the technology that went into it. This would be a great product, and it's desirable. However, someone took my design, broke it down and copied it, and released it to the free market at a lower price since they didn't have to foot the immense R&D cost that went into it. Not very fun anymore is it? That being said. What I designed was still based off of what was already there. So in a macro scale is my product really just a perfected clone of existing technology?

The point here is that the HE and LE legions just make something out of nothing. If whatever they purchase fits what the group determines as higher value to them, it will then become HE in their circle. The associated snobbery is what gets me every time though. On one hand you have those who say that my product is superior to yours due to any combination of the above points, and the other side that pleads poverty, cannot recognise the value, or just doesn't identify with the other side, in itself creating reverse snobbery.

In essence, I was mortified to hear that something like a Therion 166 and VGOD Pro 150 doesn't qualify as HE, nor is my Goon 24 or Apocalypse Gen 2. I'm not sure why, but to me it is, so I'll just enjoy my setups and in my mind they'll be the best ever, even if they aren't swathed in Stab Wood and signed off by Carol Shelby.


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A therion isn't HE?? Pffftt whoever thinks that can kiss my pucker. It's quality materials, well designed and brilliantly manufactured.
So it doesn't cost a hundred grand, don't care it's flawless.

 

[RichJB]

This is where it gets interesting
I own a set of Callaway golf Clubs. American design, rated tops, used by tour players
.... and yup look carefully
...Made in China

I had an eye-opening experience many years ago. I was following Tony Johnstone at a golf tournament and got close enough to have a squiz in his bag. He was using EZ irons which were the cheapest kakkest irons you could get at that stage. Of course, he wasn't using them off the shelf. They were reshafted, regripped, had lead tape to change the swing balance. But they were EZ irons.

Regarding the points raised earlier around materials, design, rarity, etc, I think we should add "personal importance of vaping". I know musicians who will drive a thirty year old Datsun - but they have a priceless vintage Gibson guitar and 1000 CDs in their collection. And young gamers who don't even have furniture in their apartment - but they have a 30k computer gaming rig and 150 games on the shelf. But then, they would define themselves as musicians or gamers. It's the single most important thing for them. I would never define myself as a vaper. It's a utility item, as cigarettes were, so I spend accordingly.

Therefore the definition of HE is a device bought once, intended to last decades.

This is the thing I don't get. Vaping technology is in its infancy, newer and better devices are being released all the time. Just two years ago, a dual-cell 100W mod that did nickel and titanium TC was a cutting-edge device. Now you could barely give that mod away, it's so dated. What is the point of buying a device designed to last decades when you will, in any case, be vaping something different in six months?

If manufacturers are engineering in failure after three months, they have it spot-on because that is what the customer wants. Vapers aren't distraught when their gear breaks, they are delighted. If they bought five atties and three mods every month when they already have 50 atties and 35 mods, they would start to feel guilty about the expenditure. But if something breaks, they can tell their SO that they now have to buy a new one because "look, it's broken".

 

[stevie g]

@RichJB my buying motivations are driven by longevity regardless of what's the next new thing.

My leprechaun might be outdated but it'll work for me for a long time.

I'm not sure we'll be seeing that much more innovation as you expect. Where do you go after a DNA or FSK board, anything newer and better will be incremental not like gen1 to gen3 devices.

Plus the FDA and TPD are stifling innovation and the Chinese mostly copy.

I don't think anything that gets released between now and when my mod finally breaks will tempt me to spend money.

 

[incredible_hullk]

So right @Blends Of Distinction I had to fork out r800 to get a new deck as my juice flow was stuck tight and had to use pliers screwdriver etc to get it away from the deck

Did this ever happen to any mass produced atty - no. Do I still dig the skyline - sure now have 2

I don't care he non he, just want flavor

Only he for me is Mont Blanc, will happily add to my collection

 

[Rob Fisher]

Regarding the points raised earlier around materials, design, rarity, etc, I think we should add "personal importance of vaping". I know musicians who will drive a thirty year old Datsun - but they have a priceless vintage Gibson guitar and 1000 CDs in their collection. And young gamers who don't even have furniture in their apartment - but they have a 30k computer gaming rig and 150 games on the shelf. But then, they would define themselves as musicians or gamers. It's the single most important thing for them. I would never define myself as a vaper. It's a utility item, as cigarettes were, so I spend accordingly.

@RichJB you make the most important point of all and one most missed... without being overly dramatic vaping saved my life... the difference between my health before and after vaping is huge... yes I have an over the top personality and I always overdo everything but still you have hit the nail on the head... I'm a Vaper!

 

[DougP]

Watching this thread I'm trying to determine exactly what people use to draw that line between what's is deemed to be HE and a Non HE item ....
It's appears that it comes down to individual decisions based on their own criteria
So far I have deduced (if I read correctly) the following lines ...
1. Broad spectrum - Made in Chine versus made else where
2. Build quality of item
3. Uniqueness (one of a kind)
4. Price
5. User experience (vape quality, taste etc)
There certainly at this point does not seem to be a clear definition of what defines the line between the two.

I own the following :
SX Q class mini
VGOD pro 150
Therion DNA 166
Noisey Cricket V2.5

Sitting here and looking at them I'm trying wrap my mind around which one of the two categories each one of these would fit into based on the varying criteria mentioned
Is the line also that defined that if my Therion DNA 166 does not fit into HE then it's merely a Non HE and no different then to a I-just 2 or smog alien



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[Silver]

All I know is my Evod1 is very high end

It's quite rare these days
You need to know the right people to get one...

 

[DougP]

Okay I've moved them all into my own HE category based on my own criteria
1. Each one mechanically works flawlessly
2. They all my cherished items which I have paid for (whether it be R 2 000 or R 20 000)
3. Each one fills a certain vaping style I want at different times
4. And "hell yes" last but most importantly they keep me the hell away from ever touching a cigarette again
So winner all round


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[RichJB]

I'm not sure we'll be seeing that much more innovation as you expect.

Seriously? Vaping still has inherently hazardous set-ups that can blow your face off, inefficient batteries that run flat in a couple of hours if you vape at high wattages, tanks that crack and leak and deliver dry hits, juice ingredients that cause harshness or bad reactions, devices that generally don't talk to your other electronic gadgets - and you think that won't change much over time? Regulation will drive innovation, not stifle it.

Just take the introduction of 20700 batteries now. 3000mAh from a 30A battery, basically double the capacity we were getting before. And 20700s aren't the end of the line either. I think we've barely scratched the surface of where technology can go in vaping.

 

[Fuzz]

Thanks for the response @Rob Fisher - I quite enjoy discussions like this - it gets the thought processes working at full tilt!

I echo your sentiments mostly here. Being a car guy, quite a few parallels can be drawn between the vaping world and the car world, and possibly just about any sub-culture, if you look closely enough.

I'm not sure that I agree on HE goods not coming from China and HE only being sourced from let's call it the first world manufacturing space. It's like saying the BMW's manufactured in South Africa aren't premium quality, yet those made in the USA are (interesting fact from one of my friends at BMW is that SA made cars are far superior to their US counterparts).

To me, High End focuses on perceived quality. We see it everyday and are subliminally programmed to accept this, as an example, we find some manufacturers stating that their PEEK insulators are from Germany (automatically we assume that it's superior). On the other end of the scale, we have the entire 'Designed in Europe; Manufactured in China' debate. To me, that means nothing. Who designed it in Europe? Was it a Euro Team who specialises in Vape designs? Did they fly a team from China, to Europe on a focus session to design the gear there and then flew them back once the design was completed? Were the designers the most distinguished in the world? What qualifies them as good designers?

In terms of rarity, I myself, have begun to dabble in collecting rare car parts and wheels. I can identify fully with the thinking. But I have also learnt that expensive isn't quite exactly better and better isn't necessarily expensive. Adding to that, there are quite a few examples where mass produced items have suddenly become rare, due to many factors, and examples in good condition being difficult to come by. Again, it all comes to perceived quality, and how much the next man is willing to pay for that privilege.

The point is that we all latch onto the marketing bravado that we want to believe in, and conveniently ignore the rest. So through all of this, I still don't really have a clear definition of what makes vape gear high end. But with that in mind, perhaps it was supposed to be vague and up to the community at large to decide...

Nice post @Fuzz! Eloquent and thought out... let me give some of my 2c replies...

1. I could buy a normal pico and melo 3 combo for R25k - do I now own HE gear? Or am I just a silly sod for falling for that without researching the associated value?

Silly Sod!

2. Does having something that's one of a kind with a limited production run really increase its value?

Yes it does. Rarity is sought after by some... does it change functionality? Nope.

3. Expensive materials. This is interesting. I mean in a car you have materials like carbon kevlar used which is exotic, expensive but also serves a purpose. My mod has resin impregnated iron wood from 17th century South America beset with actual insects that are now extinct, all topped with the finest blood tanzanite money can buy. But does it really add any function to my mod? I'm not sure as I'll leave that to you to decide.

Nope it doesn't change functionality in most cases... but again see point number 2.

4. Talked up? Well if I sold snake oil as the best and most flavourful vape juice ever created, that's one thing. But if via my immense marketing budget I was able to convince enough people that this is true, then I would have created a following. Each to their own here. Now imagine I managed to convince enough people that this is the best, period. Now I have an army of fan-boys that I've created. They will also fight for my product till the end of time on Internet forums, and judge anyone that points out that it is in fact just snake oil.

Oh yes and now we are talking... and I agree 100%. The Hurricane V2 was a perfect example... it was talked up (and I guess it was easy to take in the hype because thier pervious version 1.3 atty was pretty well loved) and was expensive and was one of the kakkest atties I ever bought.

5. Now this rings true with me. Something that was well engineered and thought out. Designed with the best fit and form factor in mind. Where usability is at the fore and it's just a great product in terms of quality. However I spent millions on researching this product, and perfected the technology that went into it. This would be a great product, and it's desirable. However, someone took my design, broke it down and copied it, and released it to the free market at a lower price since they didn't have to foot the immense R&D cost that went into it. Not very fun anymore is it? That being said. What I designed was still based off of what was already there. So in a macro scale is my product really just a perfected clone of existing technology?

Yes this is where the water gets a little muddy... slight or major changes to an existing design. That's why I really like the Billet Box... it was a revolutionary design and not copied from anything else and it's a bloody marvellous product.

The point here is that the HE and LE legions just make something out of nothing. If whatever they purchase fits what the group determines as higher value to them, it will then become HE in their circle. The associated snobbery is what gets me every time though. On one hand you have those who say that my product is superior to yours due to any combination of the above points, and the other side that pleads poverty, cannot recognise the value, or just doesn't identify with the other side, in itself creating reverse snobbery.

No argument here.

In essence, I was mortified to hear that something like a Therion 166 and VGOD Pro 150 doesn't qualify as HE, nor is my Goon 24 or Apocalypse Gen 2. I'm not sure why, but to me it is, so I'll just enjoy my setups and in my mind they'll be the best ever, even if they aren't swathed in Stab Wood and signed off by Carol Shelby.

There are products that stand out (and are awesome) that are not considered HE because they are made in China. I would agree the Therion is one of those products... the VGod not so much... my VGod was crap... kak button and it whined...

It's the same argument that happens in life and just about every other product grouping... VW vs Merc vs Ferrari... Chinese phones vs iPhone and S7's... Thoroughbred pets with papers vs SPCA specials... Checkers vs Woolies... Taurus firearm vs Glock... and the list goes on... but we should all be happy for each other in this LE vs HE discussion because we are all off stinking cigarettes!

 

[DougP]

@RichJB valid point you have there.
Talking about innovation and technology if you watched Carte Blanche the other night
Look at where blow up dolls are heading. R80 000 gets you the latest latex silicon blow up doll. Interchangeable parts and they look and feel almost 100% human, can be bent into any position and best of all no headaches and always willing
Dam exciting times ahead
Now if somebody can just teach her to cook

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[Anneries]

Watching this thread I'm trying to determine exactly what people use to draw that line between what's is deemed to be HE and a Non HE item ....
It's appears that it comes down to individual decisions based on their own criteria

That is the problem, we are all trying to find what is the line. BUT in actual fact, and I am busy hunting down the post, it was posted on this forum that there are a little group of elite vapers that took it upon themselves to setup a set of rules, not posted publicly, where by they classify this or that device/accessory as HE.

 

[RichJB]

Now if somebody can just teach her to cook

And make Aliens and re-wick your atties!

 

[stevie g]

@RichJB valid point you have there.
Talking about innovation and technology if you watched Carte Blanche the other night
Look at where blow up dolls are heading. R80 000 gets you the latest latex silicon blow up doll. Interchangeable parts and they look and feel almost 100% human, can be bent into any position and best of all no headaches and always willing
Dam exciting times ahead
Now if somebody can just teach her to cook

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[Anneries]

Ok I think we have been missing the point of this thread over the last 15 pages

OP:

im getting a little confused about all this. I tend to feel like if we don't hav an HE mod or tank. Then it's not really interesting anymore on The forum anymore. I don't dig it hey it's proper divided. Anyone hav anything to share?

If you want a definition of HE, look here:

https://www.ecigssa.co.za/what-makes-high-end-high-end-part-1.t33403/

And this will be my last contribution to this thread as I feel exactly what @Scouse45 said in the very first post, with a twist. I do not feel that it is the HE gear that divided the forum but the mis-interpretation by most of the members that if there is HE, then everything else must be Low end ...?!

 

[stevie g]

Seriously? Vaping still has inherently hazardous set-ups that can blow your face off, inefficient batteries that run flat in a couple of hours if you vape at high wattages, tanks that crack and leak and deliver dry hits, juice ingredients that cause harshness or bad reactions, devices that generally don't talk to your other electronic gadgets - and you think that won't change much over time? Regulation will drive innovation, not stifle it.

Just take the introduction of 20700 batteries now. 3000mAh from a 30A battery, basically double the capacity we were getting before. And 20700s aren't the end of the line either. I think we've barely scratched the surface of where technology can go in vaping.

Semantics - it'll be the same but better. I don't see how regulation in the current form will encourage things like new and safer battery technologies. We are living in the age of technology now and these batteries were created in spite of the FDA and Co not because of them.

Juice ingredients I'm most excited for - have any manufacturers of flavors developed anything new lately, aside from FA keeping a clean additive line?.

It's a consumer technology product much like computers which don't get upgraded as much as they did in the past.
Innovation has already been stifled in many parts of the world unless your definition of innovation is a product made by a large tobacco conglomerate like The HEET and Iqos.

 

[RichJB]

I don't see how regulation in the current form will encourage things like new and safer battery technologies.

You don't think it's in the vaping industry's interest to reduce the number of headline-grabbing vaping battery fires and explosions? The vaping industry has known for years that mech mods are hazardous for novice users. They did nothing about it, choosing instead to blame the user for accidents. With the failure of Cole-Bishop, vaping's biggest hope now lies in the amendments to the Tobacco Control Act proposed by Rep Duncan Hunter. One of his primary recommendations is that mech mods be banned. Vaping had years to innovate and improve mech mod safety. They chose not to. So now regulators will make that choice for them.

We are living in the age of technology now and these batteries were created in spite of the FDA and Co not because of them.

Innovation is driven by a number of factors: need and market forces certainly. But regulation too. Vehicle manufacturers pioneered unleaded fuel and emissions controls due to regulations against air pollution. Similarly we are seeing a lot of development in renewable energy due to climate change and regulatory caps on carbon emissions. In the vaping sphere, we have seen the introduction of tobacco-less nicotine, developed specifically to serve as a legal challenge to the regulators' classification of vaping as "tobacco products".

Juice ingredients I'm most excited for - have any manufacturers of flavors developed anything new lately, aside from FA keeping a clean additive line?

Almost all manufacturers are heading towards DAAP-free lines. Removal of carcinogenic sugars from concentrates. Nicotine salts. Alternative sweeteners that are healthier and gunk coils less. Alternatives to PG. New cooling agents like WS-23. One-shots as an alternative to both commercial juice and DIY. Further research into the health aspects of all juice ingredients. Disclosure of ingredients and MSDS listings. Development of Reduced Flashpoint reformulations for no-fly concentrates. There is quite a lot happening.

Innovation has already been stifled in many parts of the world unless your definition of innovation is a product made by a large tobacco conglomerate like The HEET and Iqos.

Innovation by vaping companies may have been stifled. Innovation by tobacco and pharma companies hasn't. They realise that regulation will throw up obstacles so they look for ways around it. That is what all large successful companies do. F1 is the most regulated sport of all with a ginormous tome of technical regs that dictate what teams may and may not do. Yet they are endlessly innovative in finding ways around those regs. There is not a single car on the grid that conforms to the regulations. Finding ways to beat the system is what F1 engineers do. Car and engine development is a never-ending quest. By the end of each season, cars are way better than they were for the first race of the season. Any team that takes a month-long break from development during the season will fall off the pace horribly. Any business that views regulations as a barrier to innovation are born losers who will never become global leaders in their field. If regulation serves to Darwin them out of contention, so be it.

 

[Silver]

@Lee

With reference to the following post in the whats in your hand thread:
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/whats-in-your-hand-right-now.t19/page-461#post-544507

Please explain who you are referring to by "you high end okes"
Are you referring to me?
And what is it about money that those okes are on about?
I didnt see any discussion of money unless i missed it somewhere

Am taking the discussion here not to go off topic in that thread

 

[Lee]

eg how much are

@Lee

With reference to the following post in the whats in your hand thread:
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/whats-in-your-hand-right-now.t19/page-461#post-544507

Please explain who you are referring to by "you high end okes"
Are you referring to me?
And what is it about money that those okes are on about?
I didnt see any discussion of money unless i missed it somewhere

Am taking the discussion here not to go off topic in that thread

e.g asking how much is the clone skylines.....

I'm sure you know where that convo was heading...

 

[Christos]

something special to you is in fact HE

eg how much are

e.g asking how much is the clone skylines.....

I'm sure you know where that convo was heading...

I think you are just highly strung. The tips looked suspect so I asked if they were authentic. No need to go bashing etc.