More discussion on clones

[Christos]

I recall a thread on the forum about a year or so ago that asked vendors to put their names down if they were clone free vendors. Wasn't a very long list If I recall correctly...Personally I know of only one that has never stocked clones...obviously there may be more.

That was my thread as buying from vendors who don't stock clones was very challenging.
I resorted to acquiring good I wanted internationally.
Totally my own point of view and my own decision.
A warranty on an authentic device or atty is worth more to me that a R500 paperweight from my experience.

Things may have changed but my desire for quality and longevity remains the same.
A big thing for me is after sales support and I will generally rather pay a premium for that knowing it's available.

 

[baksteen8168]

Finally caught up.

From my side I can say that I have a much clearer picture of what NCZ is trying to achieve. Before @Rob Fisher posted it just looked like a couple of individuals were starting a movement based on their dissatisfaction of their HE gear being cloned.

If I may go off topic a bit, could @Rob Fisher (as you said you know a lot of HE manufacturers personally) help me understand the following?

I know this isn't a HE discussion, but I still struggle to see how some devices have such exorbitant prices. Let me use vehicles to better explain my point. I get the difference in price from a Datsun to a BMW (with more tech in the BMW as well as a lot more creature comforts), but I struggle to see why a Lamborghini Huracan is R5.8mil while the Audi R8 (that shares a lot of the same parts - Including engine) costs R2.8mil. Now, Lets compare 2 mods - The SolarStorm DNA75C against a Lost Vape Therion DNA75C. The SS goes for around $750 while the Therion sits aroun $160. I don't get why there is a massive difference in price? Sure, the SS is made out of Stab wood and has semi precious stones for buttons so lets say $350 or even $400 would probably be reasonable. What's the other $300 for? exclusivity? Maybe I am missing something as I am not in the manufacturing or sales world.

Please don't think I am knocking HE devices and I apologize if I am coming across as ignorant, I just genuinely want to understand where the pricing comes from.

 

[Christos]

Totally agree with you and your stance.

I enjoy seeing HE products posted, its exciting and beautiful to look at and i dont hold anything against anyone with HE, i want them all!!! And to see something exclusive is awesome.

No judgement from me or at anyone at all, i choose to buy authentic because of personal reasons.

I dont really have an issue with a bit of a show of, If someone is so insecure that they become jealous thats their issue.

In the HE community a lot of people buy for their own personal enjoyment and preference reasons but there are individuals as in any community that buy for the wrong reasons. How often do you hear of someone who spends ridiculous amounts of cash on something only to moan about how rubbish it is?

I would encourage anyone to first find what works for them the best and as cheaply as possible before looking at making any high value purchases for FOMO reasons etc.

If a twisp cue works for the individual then great! Having expensive gear does not imply having a better vape than anyone else IMHO. I recall people giving me uphill for buying a reo as it was considered by some as a very expensive mech but a reo outlived all of my regulated devices at the time and I was indeed after a device that didn't break Aster 3 months.

I know my atties are considered rubbish to a lot of people who have tried them (even the clone ones are no longer in people's possession as they consider it rubbish) but they are the best for my style and my requirements.

 

[Christos]

Finally caught up.

From my side I can say that I have a much clearer picture of what NCZ is trying to achieve. Before @Rob Fisher posted it just looked like a couple of individuals were starting a movement based on their dissatisfaction of their HE gear being cloned.

If I may go off topic a bit, could @Rob Fisher (as you said you know a lot of HE manufacturers personally) help me understand the following?

I know this isn't a HE discussion, but I still struggle to see how some devices have such exorbitant prices. Let me use vehicles to better explain my point. I get the difference in price from a Datsun to a BMW (with more tech in the BMW as well as a lot more creature comforts), but I struggle to see why a Lamborghini Huracan is R5.8mil while the Audi R8 (that shares a lot of the same parts - Including engine) costs R2.8mil. Now, Lets compare 2 mods - The SolarStorm DNA75C against a Lost Vape Therion DNA75C. The SS goes for around $750 while the Therion sits aroun $160. I don't get why there is a massive difference in price? Sure, the SS is made out of Stab wood and has semi precious stones for buttons so lets say $350 or even $400 would probably be reasonable. What's the other $300 for? exclusivity? Maybe I am missing something as I am not in the manufacturing or sales world.

Please don't think I am knocking HE devices and I apologize if I am coming across as ignorant, I just genuinely want to understand where the pricing comes from.

I can give you some feedback from my side.
The narda IMHO is a great single coil atty that doesn't leak on me and gives me a great flavour experience with different juices.

Is it expensive? Yes 100 USD. Is it readily available? No. The guy who makes them makes 100 each month and sells them to people on his waiting list.

The fact here is that he designed each atty himself and manufactured each one himself.
Yes his QC costs are high as he is a one man show but I would rather buy his atty than a 20usd atty as I love the flavour his atties give me. Also I don't mind waiting for my spot in his waiting list as I understand his method of operating.
Bottom line is I pay for his individual attention knowing very well that if he automated and went the mass production route he could make the atties for a lot less.

@Rob Fisher IMHO appreciates hand made items that are unique and is more likely to pay a premium for individual attention and marvel at the crafts of others.

 

[Rob Fisher]

@baksteen8168 no need to apologise... those are all valid questions...

The bottom line is it's the pursuit of beautiful things that are a little exclusive and rare and that work really well. The same can be said of a Rolex watch that tells the same time as an R200 watch from the flea market... or a Ferrari that will take you to the shop just like a VW Beetle will. Actually, the Ferarri is a bad example because I tried to buy a Magnum PI Ferrari once and I didn't fit in it and a VW Beetle would have suited me better. I have worked hard during my life and was lucky enough to have started two businesses that ending up doing very well and the result is that now in my retirement I'm able to buy the finer things in life and travel.

I love things with an intrinsic value... like the Solar Storm which is made by hand... it's a thing of beauty and every time I pick it up to use it I think of the time and effort and expertise that Nicholas Foo put into making it for me personally.

The same with the Dvarw which is made by Peter in Hungary and if you chatted to him you would know how passionate he is about his RTA's and the excitement he gets when people send him a message saying thank you for creating it.

And to answer the difference between the Lost Vape Mirage (which is a great mod) vs the Solar Storm... it's a case of labour costs which are high and of course the costly raw materials. The Mirage is mass produced by machines in massive quantities which reduces the price and the Solar Storm takes about a week to make and he can only make one a week and not thousands a week as Lost Vape do.

 

[Faiyaz Cheulkar]

The another 300$ is for 10 hours of labours work he puts in @30$ an hour.
When the same device is mass produced this cost gets divided over several units. That's why mass produced items are cheaper.

Sent from aPhone

 

[Faiyaz Cheulkar]

@jm10 and @BioHAZarD,
I have been called many names and many assumptions have been made towards myself over the years e.g. elitist and condescending.
I still maintain that there is no such thing as LE gear as the term was coined a while back.

I have made a decision to support only shops that are counterfeit free a good year ago and the guys I generally support had the clone free stance from the beginning of their business as part of their business plan.

I personally feel I get judged (which does not bother me 1 bit) because I chose to only buy authentic gear.

I do not specifically buy HE but rather quality devices that have an element of longevity e.g. a mod with a lifetime guarantee as my aim is fine tune a device and use it for a long time.

Some of my gear is exclusive but it is because I have enjoyed the vape from said atty so much that I had to get more of the same thing.
The bulk of my "exclusive" atties are not for everyone as it's not their vape style and also are about 2 or 3 years old.


I also want to add that I personally have no issues with people using clone devices as it's their choice and the main aim as always is to stop smoking.

I will also not deny that there are people that post items as a show of their status but I can assure you there are not many and the few don't typically last the test of time in any community.

There are many great enthusiasts in this community and I can appreciate our love (and hate) that we have and would encourage and facilitate constructive debates where possible.

Completely agree with u on the low end-LE point, there is no low end devices, it's just mass produced that's why costs less.

 

[jm10]

Completely agree with u on the low end-LE point, there is no low end devices, it's just mass produced that's why costs less.

Ahhh so MP and HE

 

[BioHAZarD]

@jm10 and @BioHAZarD,
I have been called many names and many assumptions have been made towards myself over the years e.g. elitist and condescending.
I still maintain that there is no such thing as LE gear as the term was coined a while back.

I have made a decision to support only shops that are counterfeit free a good year ago and the guys I generally support had the clone free stance from the beginning of their business as part of their business plan.

I personally feel I get judged (which does not bother me 1 bit) because I chose to only buy authentic gear.

I do not specifically buy HE but rather quality devices that have an element of longevity e.g. a mod with a lifetime guarantee as my aim is fine tune a device and use it for a long time.

Some of my gear is exclusive but it is because I have enjoyed the vape from said atty so much that I had to get more of the same thing.
The bulk of my "exclusive" atties are not for everyone as it's not their vape style and also are about 2 or 3 years old.


I also want to add that I personally have no issues with people using clone devices as it's their choice and the main aim as always is to stop smoking.

I will also not deny that there are people that post items as a show of their status but I can assure you there are not many and the few don't typically last the test of time in any community.

There are many great enthusiasts in this community and I can appreciate our love (and hate) that we have and would encourage and facilitate constructive debates where possible.

I will call you names no matter what gear you use ... don't ever worry about that.

 

[baksteen8168]

I can give you some feedback from my side.
The narda IMHO is a great single coil atty that doesn't leak on me and gives me a great flavour experience with different juices.

Is it expensive? Yes 100 USD. Is it readily available? No. The guy who makes them makes 100 each month and sells them to people on his waiting list.

The fact here is that he designed each atty himself and manufactured each one himself.
Yes his QC costs are high as he is a one man show but I would rather buy his atty than a 20usd atty as I love the flavour his atties give me. Also I don't mind waiting for my spot in his waiting list as I understand his method of operating.
Bottom line is I pay for his individual attention knowing very well that if he automated and went the mass production route he could make the atties for a lot less.

@Rob Fisher IMHO appreciates hand made items that are unique and is more likely to pay a premium for individual attention and marvel at the crafts of others.

@baksteen8168 no need to apologise... those are all valid questions...

The bottom line is it's the pursuit of beautiful things that are a little exclusive and rare and that work really well. The same can be said of a Rolex watch that tells the same time as an R200 watch from the flea market... or a Ferrari that will take you to the shop just like a VW Beetle will. Actually, the Ferarri is a bad example because I tried to buy a Magnum PI Ferrari once and I didn't fit in it and a VW Beetle would have suited me better. I have worked hard during my life and was lucky enough to have started two businesses that ending up doing very well and the result is that now in my retirement I'm able to buy the finer things in life and travel.

I love things with an intrinsic value... like the Solar Storm which is made by hand... it's a thing of beauty and every time I pick it up to use it I think of the time and effort and expertise that Nicholas Foo put into making it for me personally.

The same with the Dvarw which is made by Peter in Hungary and if you chatted to him you would know how passionate he is about his RTA's and the excitement he gets when people send him a message saying thank you for creating it.

And to answer the difference between the Lost Vape Mirage (which is a great mod) vs the Solar Storm... it's a case of labour costs which are high and of course the costly raw materials. The Mirage is mass produced by machines in massive quantities which reduces the price and the Solar Storm takes about a week to make and he can only make one a week and not thousands a week as Lost Vape do.

The another 300$ is for 10 hours of labours work he puts in @30$ an hour.
When the same device is mass produced this cost gets divided over several units. That's why mass produced items are cheaper.

Sent from aPhone

Ah, I understand now. Makes much more sense why it would be more if it's individually produced rather than mass produced. Thanks guys

 

[Jean claude Vaaldamme]

This is taken from another thread.

Just my 2c worth (plus VAT)

This is the most important post on this thread.
The same person that says cloning and buying clones is not the right thing to do.
That say people that cloner "dont give a shit" for other people's intellectual property, or the vaping community.

The same person not only suggest to be unethical but to actually break the law by not declaring something at customs. So is that the right thing do? Do you "give a shit" for your country and its laws. That same laws that sort of protect your industry that cloning is not legalized, and its a free for all?

Is that not the same thing as a corrupt government official?
Is that any better than the cloner that " dont give a shit"?

And please thsi is no personal attack. It is all things that was said on this forum. Just showing the hypocricy, and why the general public will not "give a shit" for this movement. Same as someone mentioned about these same vendors that used to sell clones, and now suddenly clones are the devil.

 

[Christos]

This is the most important post on this thread.
The same person that says cloning and buying clones is not the right thing to do.
That say people that cloner "dont give a shit" for other people's intellectual property, or the vaping community.

The same person not only suggest to be unethical but to actually break the law by not declaring something at customs. So is that the right thing do? Do you "give a shit" for your country and its laws. That same laws that sort of protect your industry that cloning is not legalized, and its a free for all?

Is that not the same thing as a corrupt government official?
Is that any better than the cloner that " dont give a shit"?

And please thsi is no personal attack. It is all things that was said on this forum. Just showing the hypocricy, and why the general public will not "give a shit" for this movement. Same as someone mentioned about these same vendors that used to sell clones, and now suddenly clones are the devil.

I think you are touching on a grey area here that perhaps needs some discussion and a working definition. I am by no means setting out to do that here.


I feel its hypocritical to even use the word hypocrite as nobody is perfect. calling anyone a hypocrite is merely an acknowledgment of our duplicitous nature as for example my thoughts and feeling in the morning often oppose my thoughts and feelings in the evening etc.

We all strive for excellence in all things we do but some areas are less excellent than others.
I would love to see pics of your etags and maybe some internet search history.

Taking an extra 5 minutes to smoke at work is theft technically according to some definitions of what is right in this thread. You would be stealing your employers money as you arent working for 5 minutes etc.
Going to the toilet is also technically theft because you are given a tea break, lunch and a another tea break before home time. How many times have we left work 5 minutes early? Theft right there.

 

[M.Adhir]

This is the most important post on this thread.
The same person that says cloning and buying clones is not the right thing to do.
That say people that cloner "dont give a shit" for other people's intellectual property, or the vaping community.

The same person not only suggest to be unethical but to actually break the law by not declaring something at customs. So is that the right thing do? Do you "give a shit" for your country and its laws. That same laws that sort of protect your industry that cloning is not legalized, and its a free for all?

Is that not the same thing as a corrupt government official?
Is that any better than the cloner that " dont give a shit"?

And please thsi is no personal attack. It is all things that was said on this forum. Just showing the hypocricy, and why the general public will not "give a shit" for this movement. Same as someone mentioned about these same vendors that used to sell clones, and now suddenly clones are the devil.

I have to disagree here. I've brought in stuff quite a few times with Rob (and others here as well), and every time we have imported theres been a full declaration of value of goods, and customs paid. Right down to items worth $5 being declared, and duties paid on them.

As a taxpayer in the 39%+ /41% brackets, using let's say 2 grand / 2500 worth of fuel a month. Plus average grocery spend, plus uif/sdl etc.. add it up - over 65% of what we earn goes back to treasury some way or the other. And then we still need to pay for private security /alarms, pay medical aid, etc.

So yeah- I pay when and where I absolutely have to- but if I can avoid it once in a while(not importing goods for profit but for personal use), then yeah, I will open that bottle of cologne, or that cellphone box, or that vape gear, before I get through customs. Most people would, whether they would like to admit it or not.

I also don't think this is the right forum/ place for this discussion to be continued too much-it's a thread about cloning of goods, and has been derailed so far away that it may as well be a train flying in the ocean.

 

[Jean claude Vaaldamme]

I think you are touching on a grey area here that perhaps needs some discussion and a working definition. I am by no means setting out to do that here.


I feel its hypocritical to even use the word hypocrite as nobody is perfect. calling anyone a hypocrite is merely an acknowledgment of our duplicitous nature as for example my thoughts and feeling in the morning often oppose my thoughts and feelings in the evening etc.

We all strive for excellence in all things we do but some areas are less excellent than others.
I would love to see pics of your etags and maybe some internet search history.

Taking an extra 5 minutes to smoke at work is theft technically according to some definitions of what is right in this thread. You would be stealing your employers money as you arent working for 5 minutes etc.
Going to the toilet is also technically theft because you are given a tea break, lunch and a another tea break before home time. How many times have we left work 5 minutes early? Theft right there.

I never said I do not do things that are wrong. But I also didnt tell people that not buying clones is the right thing to do?

 

[Jean claude Vaaldamme]

I have to disagree here. I've brought in stuff quite a few times with Rob (and others here as well), and every time we have imported theres been a full declaration of value of goods, and customs paid. Right down to items worth $5 being declared, and duties paid on them.

As a taxpayer in the 39%+ /41% brackets, using let's say 2 grand / 2500 worth of fuel a month. Plus average grocery spend, plus uif/sdl etc.. add it up - over 65% of what we earn goes back to treasury some way or the other. And then we still need to pay for private security /alarms, pay medical aid, etc.

So yeah- I pay when and where I absolutely have to- but if I can avoid it once in a while(not importing goods for profit but for personal use), then yeah, I will open that bottle of cologne, or that cellphone box, or that vape gear, before I get through customs. Most people would, whether they would like to admit it or not.

I also don't think this is the right forum/ place for this discussion to be continued too much-it's a thread about cloning of goods, and has been derailed so far away that it may as well be a train flying in the ocean.

So Oscar can say he never murdered someone in 30years, so the one time he did, he can be excused?

 

[M.Adhir]

So Oscar can say he never murdered someone in 30years, so the one time he did, he can be excused?

Depends, on whether he asked or asks or needs to be excused in the first place.

As I understand - a large part of this thread centred around being pro-choice. It's everybody's choice to do exactly what they want to do. Nobody has stopped anybody from that, rather, there have just been highlights of what the perceived impact of the whole cloning thing has has on the industry in general (which again, some may view very differently to others).

 

[Christos]

So Oscar can say he never murdered someone in 30years, so the one time he did, he can be excused?

Whole different ball game IMHO. Oscar has himself to live with.
Most people sleep at night stealing their employers time.
Most people sleep at night not paying etolls.
Most people sleep at night stealing electricity.

Is it right? I dont know what constitutes a moral wrong for someone at the end of the day.
IS stealing a loaf of bread to feed a hungry child still theft? should the hand still be cut off? I dont have the answer for you. I dont know myself except what constitutes right and wrong for myself in my conscious that is ever evolving and expanding as i get older.

 

[Jean claude Vaaldamme]

Whole different ball game IMHO. Oscar has himself to live with.
Most people sleep at night stealing their employers time.
Most people sleep at night not paying etolls.
Most people sleep at night stealing electricity.

Is it right? I dont know what constitutes a moral wrong for someone at the end of the day.
IS stealing a loaf of bread to feed a hungry child still theft? should the hand still be cut off? I dont have the answer for you. I dont know myself except what constitutes right and wrong for myself in my conscious that is ever evolving and expanding as i get older.

Agree, but trust me, after he killed someone, a psychopath will sleep just as good as me after I did not pay etoll
And surely someone paying thousands for airfair and buying vape gear, to try and save a few bucks at customs, cant be compared to someone who steals a bread for his hungry children? Unless he bought R200 booze and have nothing left for his children, then he has no excuse

 

[Christos]

Agree, but trust me, after he killed someone, a psychopath will sleep just as good as me after I did not pay etoll
And surely someone paying thousands for airfair and buying vape gear, to try and save a few bucks at customs, cant be compared to someone who steals a bread for his hungry children? Unless he bought R200 booze and have nothing left for his children, then he has no excuse

A wise man once said, he who is without sin throw the first stone.

I feel you seem to be passing judgement on a matter that you yourself would not hesitate to do.

 

[M.Adhir]

Agree, but trust me, after he killed someone, a psychopath will sleep just as good as me after I did not pay etoll
And surely someone paying thousands for airfair and buying vape gear, to try and save a few bucks at customs, cant be compared to someone who steals a bread for his hungry children? Unless he bought R200 booze and have nothing left for his children, then he has no excuse

Precisely- but again, it's about choice. The choice too make their own decision, whether it's right or wrong is up to ones own moral copass/ conscience. The lesser of two evils may be less evil, but it's still evil. To each their own.

 

[Jean claude Vaaldamme]

A wise man once said, he who is without sin throw the first stone.

I feel you seem to be passing judgement on a matter that you yourself would not hesitate to do.

Thanks, totally agree. So please copy and paste in the NCZ. " he who is without sin, throw the first stone"

Then this discussions would have never happened, people would have never said cloners and people buying them steal. No judgement would have passed on anyone

 

[Jean claude Vaaldamme]

Precisely- but again, it's about choice. The choice too make their own decision, whether it's right or wrong is up to ones own moral copass/ conscience. The lesser of two evils may be less evil, but it's still evil. To each their own.

Yes thanks for joining the club, pro choice, dont judge people who clone or buy clones, each to their own

 

[Christos]

Thanks, totally agree. So please copy and paste in the NCZ. " he who is without sin, throw the first stone"

Then this discussions would have never happened, people would have never said cloners and people buying them steal. No judgement would have passed on anyone

I think you missed the point entirely. No judgment was passed. Your assumptions are incorrect.
nobody is calling buyers of clones thieves. We are merely acknowledging that cloning is intellectual property theft.

 

[Jean claude Vaaldamme]

I think you missed the point entirely. No judgment was passed. Your assumptions are incorrect.
nobody is calling buyers of clones thieves. We are merely acknowledging that cloning is intellectual property theft.

Maybe, but I dont think so. Ever went to Ster Kinekor? Ever seen the clips against illegal copied movies? People buying it, supports stealing?
Campaigns against illegal music same thing.
This is not new.
If you brand a cloner a thief, surely you cant say someone buying it is innocent, ....dealer.....stealer

No one has yet aswered my question if there is a difference between a cloner that "dont give a shit" or someone not paying at customs, and "dont give a shit"

 

[Christos]

Maybe, but I dont think so. Ever went to Ster Kinekor? Ever seen the clips against illegal copied movies? People buying it, supports stealing?
Campaigns against illegal music same thing.
This is not new.
If you brand a cloner a thief, surely you cant say someone buying it is innocent, ....dealer.....stealer

No one has yet aswered my question if there is a difference between a cloner that "dont give a shit" or someone not paying at customs, and "dont give a shit"

Thankfully we all subscribe to pro choice and have the freedom to chose what we want to do.