???? Smokers pay heavy tax, they are almost not allowed to smoke anywhere except their own backyard. There are so many examples of everything getting thrown at smokers. Ever seen a smokers life insurance payments?
The ongoing media war on E-cigs and Vaping industry
Dont know what is so difficult to understand. If you do something that may harm your or anybody else's health, and thus cost your government money in the long run, surely they may throw the book at you, like they do with cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, emmision tax, factories polluting air or water etc etc.
Do you have a problem with sugar tax? Do you write facebook banners claiming your health is excellent and sugar tax should be scrapped? Do you have facebook banners claiming you dont want to pay extra for your 4.6l V8 Ford? N bcause you will have no case.
Thus unless somebody come with evidence that vaping is harmless, we will have no case for anyboddy to throw the book at us, if we promote it as a lifestyle. If you promote is as nly a means to stop smoking them you have a case.
People are quick to throw in the " but the British government supports vaping". Do they promote vaping as a lifestyle or as a means for smokers only to quit?
The British endorse vaping as a harm reduction product. Therefore to encourage people to switch from
Smoking there should be zero sin tax attached.
Unfortunately this won’t happen here... it will be just another excuse to fill coffers. Take the tyre tax- none of that is going back into saving the environment. I could stomach a vaping sin tax if the proceeds went towards anti-tobacco education and vaping promotion as a Harm reduction product. But alas, SABC/Eskom/SAA are a bit low on funds again.
Smoking there should be zero sin tax attached.
Unfortunately this won’t happen here... it will be just another excuse to fill coffers. Take the tyre tax- none of that is going back into saving the environment. I could stomach a vaping sin tax if the proceeds went towards anti-tobacco education and vaping promotion as a Harm reduction product. But alas, SABC/Eskom/SAA are a bit low on funds again.
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Yes, when Vinyl was replaced with cd, the music died.
When fax was replaced with email, the communication died.
If vaping is really the better, safer new technology, it will not seize to exist, even if there is only tobacco flavours. If you the new kid on the block and cant compete with the money thrown at you from the old boys. You take it on the chin what they throw at you, you make it better even with just tobacco flavours. You pay your due and then one day you will be in the majority and can call the shots.
Netflix did not cry and make facebook banners when dstv paid their due for decades in SA and Netflix was not allowed just to jump in at the SA market. Dstv own the broadcast rights to most popular shows. Netflix may be the future but have to back down in SA, take their time as dstv'molopoly runs out and will then control the market.
I sometimes wonder if you are on the right forum.
Here we try to fight for our rights to vape how we want to and you say we must just suck it up. Hell no!
Then vaping can be taxed. I'd rather have it taxed than banned, or have flavour banned.
And we are going to be confined to vaping in our backyards only. While it's very sad that one day I won't be able to enjoy a cappuccino and a vape at my local coffee shop, I would at least like to enjoy it at home. The govt has the right to enforce what one does in public, but it does not have the right to tell me what to do in my own home.
Life insurance for smokers ... hmmm interesting point. I guess the insurers are hand in hand with Big Pharma.
Why? If Afrikaans people was more considered and not just our way or the highway, our schools and universities would not be under threat. Or our sport? If you let idiots do the talking for you, you will just cry later.
If some Dictators gave in and found some middle ground, they might still have been alive
Sarcasm doesn't help and besides, there is no comparison.
If flavours are banned, commercially available flavoured juice will die.
If vaping is banned, vaping will eventually die.
It's already established: You support high tax on things and that is your right, regardless of me agreeing with you or not.
However, in my books "must take whatever" includes: Lies, public humiliation, aggressive idiots in my face, flavour bans, total bans,... other people telling me what must (or can"t) I do. I'm just sick and tired of that.
P.S. IMHO any tax other than VAT is immoral and it never solved anything other than personal accounts of the fat-cats in charge of any country.
Quite a long rant from me, but please bear with me and feel free to disagree. This is my viewpoint and my experience based on life, yours may be the total opposite.
My belief is that we must always guard against a nanny state where someone else makes all of the decisions on your behalf, without your viewpoint being taken into consideration, be they good or bad, based on their own ignorance, perceptions, interpretations, lack of knowledge and likes and dislikes, because that in my eye is oppression. You will always find someone that will take this type of power too far. So if a law says we have to all jump of a bridge, we are legally forced to do so, bad and not the best analogy but it’s to prove a point. Hell no, I’m not jumping, my brain tells me that is bad for my health.
We were given a brain to make decisions, and some will be good, and some will be bad, but we as human beings and individuals decide, we have a right to live our lives based on our decisions and our own views and aspirations. But, we have to respect others and society as they have the same options and rights, and I have to accept that. I chose to smoke for 30+ years, causing harm to myself, and most probably/definitely those around me, and then chose vaping as it most probably saved my life from being lived towing an oxygen cylinder behind me. It is not totally safe, but a safer option, which is my decision to accept the smaller risk to myself and those around me, and I will not apologize to anyone in this regard. If I don’t vape I will in all probability start smoking again, I enjoyed every second of it.
I totally agree that no non smoker should start vaping because it’s cool, but agree with @Hooked that sometimes the lesser of two evils will still be the better choice. I agree children should be kept safe from harm, but we cannot live their lives on their behalf. They have to learn to make their own decisions, their own mistakes as this is part of life and becoming an individual and an adult, and learn that for each decision there will be a consequence. But we can impart knowledge and give advice and lead by example to try and show them the good, and save them some time in having to make all of those mistakes again like we did. And they are crafty little things to get to try those things that are seen as Taboo for them.
I have two sons, neither smoke as I told them and taught them about the dangers, and they chose to learn from my mistake, other kids maybe did not. Same goes for drugs, drinking and driving, which I did and I knew every traffic cop and policeman (chauffeur) in my town, and racing, see previous point, unprotected sex, I’m not a grandfather yet so that seems to be working as well, I hope. That makes me proud, but I’m sure they will still make mistakes in their lives going forward, because they are human. But no one can prescribe which ones they may make and which ones not.
Like the old saying goes, “if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns”, same applies to vaping. I will become a criminal because of the choice I make, but cannot force anyone else to do the same, they have to decide for themselves. But if someone wants to impose their misguided ideology on me based on their ignorance, don’t expect me to just bend over and take it.
A free society is where you can decide how you want to live your life, taking reasonable laws into consideration for the better of a community, but not having behavior or traits prescribed to you that inhibits you as an individual. Smoking is bad, it will kill you, but so will a lot of other things, pills, drugs nature and sometimes stupidity, but yet people still have a choice, why should I be treated different because I choose to vape.
My belief is that we must always guard against a nanny state where someone else makes all of the decisions on your behalf, without your viewpoint being taken into consideration, be they good or bad, based on their own ignorance, perceptions, interpretations, lack of knowledge and likes and dislikes, because that in my eye is oppression. You will always find someone that will take this type of power too far. So if a law says we have to all jump of a bridge, we are legally forced to do so, bad and not the best analogy but it’s to prove a point. Hell no, I’m not jumping, my brain tells me that is bad for my health.
We were given a brain to make decisions, and some will be good, and some will be bad, but we as human beings and individuals decide, we have a right to live our lives based on our decisions and our own views and aspirations. But, we have to respect others and society as they have the same options and rights, and I have to accept that. I chose to smoke for 30+ years, causing harm to myself, and most probably/definitely those around me, and then chose vaping as it most probably saved my life from being lived towing an oxygen cylinder behind me. It is not totally safe, but a safer option, which is my decision to accept the smaller risk to myself and those around me, and I will not apologize to anyone in this regard. If I don’t vape I will in all probability start smoking again, I enjoyed every second of it.
I totally agree that no non smoker should start vaping because it’s cool, but agree with @Hooked that sometimes the lesser of two evils will still be the better choice. I agree children should be kept safe from harm, but we cannot live their lives on their behalf. They have to learn to make their own decisions, their own mistakes as this is part of life and becoming an individual and an adult, and learn that for each decision there will be a consequence. But we can impart knowledge and give advice and lead by example to try and show them the good, and save them some time in having to make all of those mistakes again like we did. And they are crafty little things to get to try those things that are seen as Taboo for them.
I have two sons, neither smoke as I told them and taught them about the dangers, and they chose to learn from my mistake, other kids maybe did not. Same goes for drugs, drinking and driving, which I did and I knew every traffic cop and policeman (chauffeur) in my town, and racing, see previous point, unprotected sex, I’m not a grandfather yet so that seems to be working as well, I hope. That makes me proud, but I’m sure they will still make mistakes in their lives going forward, because they are human. But no one can prescribe which ones they may make and which ones not.
Like the old saying goes, “if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns”, same applies to vaping. I will become a criminal because of the choice I make, but cannot force anyone else to do the same, they have to decide for themselves. But if someone wants to impose their misguided ideology on me based on their ignorance, don’t expect me to just bend over and take it.
A free society is where you can decide how you want to live your life, taking reasonable laws into consideration for the better of a community, but not having behavior or traits prescribed to you that inhibits you as an individual. Smoking is bad, it will kill you, but so will a lot of other things, pills, drugs nature and sometimes stupidity, but yet people still have a choice, why should I be treated different because I choose to vape.
@Jean claude Vaaldamme What on earth have Afrikaans people got to do with this discussion on vaping???? You're going off on a tangent. Please keep to the subject.
Well said @Room Fogger!! Thank you for the above.
I especially like, and I will make a note of it on my computer, your statement that,
"A free society is where you can decide how you want to live your life, taking reasonable laws into consideration for the better of a community, but not having behavior or traits prescribed to you that inhibits you as an individual."
History exam question in the year 2050:
"What was the cause of the South African Civil War which began in 2019?"
"What was the cause of the South African Civil War which began in 2019?"
Seriously? Its called an example of the principle. Here is a vaping example. On SA facebook groups there is this one guy that loves making videos of him ranting about vape stuff. Often also asking for support to get him on radio talkshows etc.
Now one of the videos I saw he is explaining and compairing vaping to water boiling in a kettle. Most of this guys arguments are totally unscientific and some even ridiculous. Now what will happen if he comes on a vaping talkshow or a meeting with government over laws and regulations, up against scientists, medical experts etc. They will make a fool of him and thus the vaping community.
So yes be carefull who represent you and what arguments they use,, it can cause more harm than good.
And thats my point from the start, vapers with ridiculous arguments should rather not try to fight the battle as they may do more harm. Like Trump will say, everything is a negotiation. If vaping go with the motion f my way or the highway, we will get the highway.
I think most will agree on your last paragraph. But laws and regulations are set to protect idiots from themselves. This freedom always reminds me of the people that drink a alcohol every day/week, or buy new cars often, or smoke or vape etc etc, but they dont find the need to rather spend their money on medical aid, then when something happen they cry to everyone else who did made the right choices to fund their medical bills.
Same with smoking, yes you have a choice, but most countries tax you to death for that choice, because at the end of the day the government will have to sit with the burden of that choice you made. And before someone now think that it does not apply to me because I have a medical aid. Its not that simple. If you get sick from your choice you put a strain on your medical aid, if too many people do the same, the medical aids will go bancrupt. If you loose a limb, needs oxygen, get a stroke or die before you 65, then you cant be a productive citizen and contribute to the economy. So you are a burden to the state in so many ways because of your choice.
So if vaping cant proof that its 100% risk free in the long run, unfortunately it will be regulated, controlled, taxed and laws in place like all other harmfull choices. No nanny state, just a negotiation, you make the choice, we tax the choice to compensate for our future burden.
Secondly. Some people here want to pull the deck from under the dwarf. Vaping is not getting banned. Regulations, taxes etc are coming. This can only be good for the industry, I will make a seperate post regarding this.
Yes some countries may even ban flavours. But vaping will not get banned in most democratic countries. If some democratic country decides to ban vaping, someone will just take them to court, like in SA with marijuana. So make your arguments against flavour bans, taxes, regulations, laws, restrictions. But banning vaping as a whole will just happen if some serious health issues gets proven.
India bans e-cigarettes as global vaping backlash grows
Ban follows vaping-related deaths in US, with punishment including up to a year in prison
https://www.theguardian.com/society...-e-cigarettes-as-global-vaping-backlash-grows
Michigan's flavored vape ban stops sales this week
Enforcement of Michigan's flavored vaping ban begins Wednesday, which means vape and tobacco shops and online retailers will no longer be able to sell flavored e-cigarettes in the state without penalty of fines and possible jail time.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo...-vape-ban-vaping-ecigarette-vapes/2424516001/
Thailand vape ban: Travellers unaware they could face up to 10 years in prison for using e cigarettes
The ban has been law since 2014
https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...arettes-use-bangkok-holidays-uk-a7893981.html
Turkey Keeps Vape Ban and Satisfies WHO
https://vaping360.com/vape-news/58777/turkey-vape-ban-who/
... and a list goes on.
You sound more and more, by the minute, like low level local politician pushing the agenda (or trying to score points with a boss).
Lol Yes Turkey and Thailand are democratic countries. The Michigan quote has no point. Low level reading abilities?
Very possible in your case. So typical for the poly-tick.
Ad hominem fallacy
When the attack on the person is relevant to the argument, it is not a fallacy.
Interesting short video that I found while suffering from some insomnia, don’t know all of the details as stated here but some food for thought.
I'm not sure where Vic gets his figures from, heh. Last week he was claiming that India has 42 million vapers. Suffice it to say, I haven't been able to find any source online that shows the same figures he provides.
GrimmGreen gives some incredibly good advice:
Nice video, great advice, but people are driven by emotion and not by the facts. Media and polititians are abusing that every single day.
Another problem is who and how is presenting those facts. Even biger problem is that 10 people can stare at the same fact and have 10 diferent perceptions and understanding of the same fact. Who decides the official version in that case?
How many people will beleieve in the "official" story (from the previous video) and how many in the "other" guy's story?
So many questions...
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